PVP Feedback Thread!

[threat111]

<p>Currently the TSO armor rewards are way to cheap.  They where lowered from 150 writs (bp) to 30 writs.  Combine that with the writs themselves being easier to complete is way to much.</p><p>I love the new control immunity signents on the PvP merchant.  Is there anyway we could have those added to the guild hall vendor, or have that pvp merchant a new choice to add to our guild halls?</p><p>Runed Mobius Strip for priests is stupid over-powered.  Its got a 50% chance to proc, even at 10% id would be amazing.</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Currently the TSO armor rewards are way to cheap.  They where lowered from 150 writs (bp) to 30 writs.  Combine that with the writs themselves being easier to complete is way to much. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Writs were not difficult to complete if you participated in Lavazerg, like many people did.  Lower writ requirements means that fewer hours of lame AE sharing lagging the server to complete, so this reduction will have people geared up and moving onwards to open-world PvP faster.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Cheaper armor might also mean that new lvl80s will also be able to gear up to defend themselves faster, perhaps stabilizing the end-game gear gap faster.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">It does appear as if some of the more lame elements hindering PvP are being addressed with this change.</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Kurindor_Mythecnea]

<p><span style="color: #ffff00;">oopies.</span></p>

[Crismorn]

<p>wrong section.</p>

[Kurindor_Mythecnea]

<p><span style="color: #ffff00;">I think RoK gear ought at least cost less than TSO crit mit gear. Whether this will detract from the motivation people have to PvP, I don't know. Neskonlith addresses some valid aspects in considering reducing the  time sink of developing a character's competency, and maybe this will reinvigorate the lower tiers once people get bored of T8, but again, who can say.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;"><em><strong>-- EDIT --</strong> </em>Yarr...RoK gear PIECES are actually cheaper than TSO gear pieces...I was just looking at the jewelry and noticed the rates being about equal with the TSO chest pieces and I suppose...that that is a sound reformation! lol.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">But what I do know, is that many agree that fame loss while offline completely destroys the cyclical objective that fame/infamy/notoriety was. Having something to lose and something to gain definitely contributed to an environment of heightened anxiety and an interest in situational awareness.</span></p>

[Brimestar]

<p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Currently the TSO armor rewards are way to cheap.  They where lowered from 150 writs (bp) to 30 writs.  Combine that with the writs themselves being easier to complete is way to much.</p><p>I love the new control immunity signents on the PvP merchant.  Is there anyway we could have those added to the guild hall vendor, or have that pvp merchant a new choice to add to our guild halls?</p><p>Runed Mobius Strip for priests is stupid over-powered.  Its got a 50% chance to proc, even at 10% id would be amazing.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with Cesium on this....To go from 150 writs to 30 is pretty outrageous....Reduce it to 100. I remember when the writs were increased with the TSO expansion. RoK it took around 60 writs to complete an armor piece (not chest or legs) And when TSO came out it went up to 80 writs. I put in a post about this which a dev responded in BETA that it would stand. Now, after the fact of having completed all the writs, its now (forgive me for saying) easy mode. Maybe if the writs still had class completions on them it would be ok, but to get both non-class writs and only 30 writs for a chest piece....What ever happened to pride and the satisfaction of completing something difficult?</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Brimestar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>What ever happened to pride and the satisfaction of completing something difficult?</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Lavazerg proved that those "difficult" writs were easy enough to complete even in death - and writ class requirements in the zerg meant nothing.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Do you want more open-world PvP with a smaller gear advantage so that skill matters more, or do you want to merely add another few days to the people AE sharing in Lavastorm, as they gear up to eventually go back out into open-world PvP?  The more expensive the gear, the longer the Lavazerg party lasts.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Lavazerg 2.0 is guaranteed to happen as everyone saw how <em>fun</em> and <em>successful</em> the original carnage was - it worked for the masses participating... Lavazerg was the Woodstock of PvP!</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Faenril]

You are making the assumption that the full time dock zergers will actually move to open world pvp once they complete their gear set. I have strong doubts this will be the majority. Ppl tend to get lazy once they got used to get stuff "easy" or "for free". I agree those new writs sound too cheap.

[Cyst]

<p>First and foremost there is only <strong>FIVE MONTHS LEFT</strong> before the next expansion. Secondly Venekor has suffered a lack of population to PvP against for MORE THAN ONE YEAR so the easy access to PvP gear is a major welcome to us. Not only that once the level increases there will be a multitude of new toons climbing the ranks, and will need to be able to get into the level 80 PvP gear ASAP so they can climb to 90 and compete.</p><p>You guys act like the raid gear is easy to replace, or hard to get. I can't tell you how many forearms, gloves, or boots that rott, or go to alts people will never play. And get this, the raid pieces are still slightly better than the PvP pieces so all those raid guilds out there will probably not use their tokens on anything, but alts, or not at all.</p><p><strong>Let us not also forget that the current exchange with writs, and gear bought means a new level 80 will not be able to compete for close to 6 months, and might get frustrated, and quit. This is a gear based game and TSO made it so that absolutely no level 72-80 will be able to compete until they get raid gear, or PvP gear.</strong></p><p>With the introduction of A LOT OF HEIRLOOM items a lot of alts are going to get tons of new gear, and those of you who've been raiding, and upgrading, and saving your gear probably have 5-10 items you'll transfer after this LU just from raid gear. If that isn't bad enough for 150 Void Shards you can now buy FABLED gear that drops in heroic zones. So in retrospect since PvE gear is MUCH EASIER TO GET NOW, so should PvP gear.</p><p>The <strong>RUNED MOBIUS STRIP </strong>needs to have a 25%-35% proc chance. The 50% proc chance is far, far too much.</p><p>However even in its current state we loaded up an Assassin with every drain power item they had in their bank, or we could find that was tradeable and the Assassin was able to drain a Inquisitor of his power in TWO MINUTES, which was suprising.</p>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not only that once the level increases there will be a multitude of new toons climbing the ranks, and will need to be able to get into the level 80 PvP gear ASAP so they can climb to 90 and compete.</p></blockquote><p>Level 80 toons "climbing the ranks" won't need the 80 pvp gear because they will compete with other ppl leveling to 90. Current level 80 toons that are already geared up will be long gone to level 90 as this is the first thing most of them will do with the level cap increase. On top of that gear degradation will take care that lvl 80 pvp gear is trash at level 90.</p><p>When level cap increases, lvl 80 pvp gear will be about as useful as lvl 70 gear is today.</p>

[Faenril]

At the beginning of ROK Aeralik made the statement that pvp gear should take a significant time investment to achieve because it rivals some of the best gear in game (namely the VP set back in the day). I guess this statement does not hold anymore?

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not only that once the level increases there will be a multitude of new toons climbing the ranks, and will need to be able to get into the level 80 PvP gear ASAP so they can climb to 90 and compete.</p></blockquote><p>Level 80 toons "climbing the ranks" won't need the 80 pvp gear because they will compete with other ppl leveling to 90. Current level 80 toons that are already geared up will be long gone to level 90 as this is the first thing most of them will do with the level cap increase. On top of that gear degradation will take care that lvl 80 pvp gear is trash at level 90.</p><p>When level cap increases, lvl 80 pvp gear will be about as useful as lvl 70 gear is today.</p></blockquote><p>This just isn't true and you know it.</p><p>There are tons of alts, and people who love the T8 PvP, and many who will not want to regear EVERY TOON for level 90, myself included.</p><p>I'll keep all but one of my FOUR 80s in T8, while I'll only level one to level 90. And the level 70 upgraded PvP gear, and the mentored down to 65+ gear out of TSO dungeons (especially the fabled pieces) is insanely nice, and not worthless. By doing what they're currently doing will allow them to quickly move back towards allowing us a level locking system.</p><p>How much of this game do you play?</p><p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>At the beginning of ROK Aeralik made the statement that pvp gear should take a significant time investment to achieve because it rivals some of the best gear in game (namely the VP set back in the day). I guess this statement does not hold anymore?</blockquote><p>My god, how much time though? There is no way a full group of level 72-79 characters could kill my Warlock, let alone my Templar. How much fodder do YOU need? I don't know about you, but I WANT A CHALLENGE, and this will equalize the gear gap that NEEDED TO BE ADDRESSED!</p><p>Heck unless you're in a raid guild, new toons will not be able to compete for months, even as much as 6 months. Do you think that is right? THIS IS A PVP SERVER, and people come here to PvP, not sit in instances again for months just gearing up so they can go out and PvP.</p><p>Don't YOU want new players on the PvP server? Are you afraid of people with equal gear, or something? Maybe we should go back to factions not having all classes?</p>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not only that once the level increases there will be a multitude of new toons climbing the ranks, and will need to be able to get into the level 80 PvP gear ASAP so they can climb to 90 and compete.</p></blockquote><p>Level 80 toons "climbing the ranks" won't need the 80 pvp gear because they will compete with other ppl leveling to 90. Current level 80 toons that are already geared up will be long gone to level 90 as this is the first thing most of them will do with the level cap increase. On top of that gear degradation will take care that lvl 80 pvp gear is trash at level 90.</p><p>When level cap increases, lvl 80 pvp gear will be about as useful as lvl 70 gear is today.</p></blockquote><p>This just isn't true and you know it.</p><p>There are tons of alts, and people who love the T8 PvP, and many who will not want to regear EVERY TOON for level 90, myself included.</p><p>I'll keep all but one of my FOUR 80s in T8, while I'll only level one to level 90. And the level 70 upgraded PvP gear, and the mentored down to 65+ gear out of TSO dungeons (especially the fabled pieces) is insanely nice, and not worthless. By doing what they're currently doing will allow them to quickly move back towards allowing us a level locking system.</p><p>How much of this game do you play?</p><p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>At the beginning of ROK Aeralik made the statement that pvp gear should take a significant time investment to achieve because it rivals some of the best gear in game (namely the VP set back in the day). I guess this statement does not hold anymore?</blockquote><p>My god, how much time though? There is no way a full group of level 72-79 characters could kill my Warlock, let alone my Templar. How much fodder do YOU need? I don't know about you, but I WANT A CHALLENGE, and this will equalize the gear gap that NEEDED TO BE ADDRESSED!</p><p>Heck unless you're in a raid guild, new toons will not be able to compete for months, even as much as 6 months. Do you think that is right? THIS IS A PVP SERVER, and people come here to PvP, not sit in instances again for months just gearing up so they can go out and PvP.</p><p>Don't YOU want new players on the PvP server? Are you afraid of people with equal gear, or something? Maybe we should go back to factions not having all classes?</p></blockquote><p>Because it is well know the vast majority of T7 pvpers stayed at lvl 70 and didn't move to T8 when the level cap increased, right ? KOS is packed with lvl 70 locked twinks in full pvp gear and exploding everywhere with pvp action ? Or could it be that the vast majority moved to the new level cap, and enjoy pvp there, you know ... where everybody else is ...</p><p>This level cap increase won't be any different than previous ones and most folks will move to the new cap and pvp there. Sitting at KP docks gets old after a while ...</p><p>But I'm glad the cheap pvp gear will let brand new level 80s compete with your locked alts ... It is obviously fundamental for the sake of the game that the 0.1% who will stick to lvl 80 for some reason get some cannon fodder...</p><p>As far as the second part of your post is concerned, I don't think giving the best gear to everyone without having to show minimal skill nor dedication, is the right answer to the gear gap. But I'm not surprised by this move considering it serves the same purpose as the RA or the fabled shard merchant. I just wonder if pvp in that game is good enough to keep ppl interested after they completed their set of gear in 1 week. How many will stick to this pvp just for fun once they realize there is no concrete objective left and their toon can't improve until next xpac ?</p><p>And to answer your question "how much time", I think getting all pvp gear (armor set jewelry and weapons) on one toon should keep an average player busy for the lifetime of an xpac.</p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not only that once the level increases there will be a multitude of new toons climbing the ranks, and will need to be able to get into the level 80 PvP gear ASAP so they can climb to 90 and compete.</p></blockquote><p>Level 80 toons "climbing the ranks" won't need the 80 pvp gear because they will compete with other ppl leveling to 90. Current level 80 toons that are already geared up will be long gone to level 90 as this is the first thing most of them will do with the level cap increase. On top of that gear degradation will take care that lvl 80 pvp gear is trash at level 90.</p><p>When level cap increases, lvl 80 pvp gear will be about as useful as lvl 70 gear is today.</p></blockquote><p>This just isn't true and you know it.</p><p>There are tons of alts, and people who love the T8 PvP, and many who will not want to regear EVERY TOON for level 90, myself included.</p><p>I'll keep all but one of my FOUR 80s in T8, while I'll only level one to level 90. And the level 70 upgraded PvP gear, and the mentored down to 65+ gear out of TSO dungeons (especially the fabled pieces) is insanely nice, and not worthless. By doing what they're currently doing will allow them to quickly move back towards allowing us a level locking system.</p><p>How much of this game do you play?</p><p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>At the beginning of ROK Aeralik made the statement that pvp gear should take a significant time investment to achieve because it rivals some of the best gear in game (namely the VP set back in the day). I guess this statement does not hold anymore?</blockquote><p>My god, how much time though? There is no way a full group of level 72-79 characters could kill my Warlock, let alone my Templar. How much fodder do YOU need? I don't know about you, but I WANT A CHALLENGE, and this will equalize the gear gap that NEEDED TO BE ADDRESSED!</p><p>Heck unless you're in a raid guild, new toons will not be able to compete for months, even as much as 6 months. Do you think that is right? THIS IS A PVP SERVER, and people come here to PvP, not sit in instances again for months just gearing up so they can go out and PvP.</p><p>Don't YOU want new players on the PvP server? Are you afraid of people with equal gear, or something? Maybe we should go back to factions not having all classes?</p></blockquote><p>Because it is well know the vast majority of T7 pvpers stayed at lvl 70 and didn't move to T8 when the level cap increased, right ? KOS is packed with lvl 70 locked twinks in full pvp gear and exploding everywhere with pvp action ? Or could it be that the vast majority moved to the new level cap, and enjoy pvp there, you know ... where everybody else is ...</p><p>This level cap increase won't be any different than previous ones and most folks will move to the new cap and pvp there. Sitting at KP docks gets old after a while ...</p><p>But I'm glad the cheap pvp gear will let brand new level 80s compete with your locked alts ... It is obviously fundamental for the sake of the game that the 0.1% who will stick to lvl 80 for some reason get some cannon fodder...</p><p>As far as the second part of your post is concerned, I don't think giving the best gear to everyone without having to show minimal skill nor dedication, is the right answer to the gear gap. But I'm not surprised by this move considering it serves the same purpose as the RA or the fabled shard merchant. I just wonder if pvp in that game is good enough to keep ppl interested after they completed their set of gear in 1 week. How many will stick to this pvp just for fun once they realize there is no concrete objective left and their toon can't improve until next xpac ?</p><p>And to answer your question "how much time", I think getting all pvp gear (armor set jewelry and weapons) on one toon should keep an average player busy for the lifetime of an xpac.</p></blockquote><p>The gear in T8, and the lack of level locking forced people to T8, and many did not choose to go to T8. A lot of people absolutely miss KoS PvP and would lock 70 toons if allowed to. Your point is lost on that simple fact.</p><p>Then for your sake we should go back to factions not having all classes, and we should not upgrade the PvP armor either. When we go back to the faction class restrictions we should also lose all of the raid gear we've obtained, and do it all over again, on hard.</p><p>You could easily gear a toon out in TSO raid gear in a couple months, yet you want PvP armor to take a year to obtain? Seriously why even have PvP armor then? The reason they have to make PvP armor easier to get now, is because it is insanely easy to clear TSO content, and gear up now that you have the gear to make it that much easier. I bet if you look at the number of raid patterns that have dropped server wide you would find more have dropped, than PvP pieces bought. They've seen these numbers, and are adjusting accordingly.</p><p>And you and I both know gear in this game makes a much bigger impact than skill. If you believe it doesn't I encourage you to run around in a T1 shard healer solo, without any PvP pieces, especially the Banshee Hoop.. Go, prove it.</p>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The gear in T8, and the lack of level locking forced people to T8, and many did not choose to go to T8. A lot of people absolutely miss KoS PvP and would lock 70 toons if allowed to. Your point is lost on that simple fact.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So the solution to broken gear and sucky pvp at T8 is what ? to stick to T7 ? And what if T9 sucks too ? Stick to T7 again ? What about fixing pvp at the level cap instead ? I loved KOS pvp, but I want some ppl to fight, and as a matter of fact most targets are at the level cap (and would be even if locking was enabled). Actually your point is lost on the simple fact that Olihin said level locking wasn't coming back.</span></p><p>Then for your sake we should go back to factions not having all classes, and we should not upgrade the PvP armor either. When we go back to the faction class restrictions we should also lose all of the raid gear we've obtained, and do it all over again, on hard.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I don't see where I asked for that, maybe you can enlighten me. My only point is either pvp gear should be easy to get and be relatively weak, or it should be difficult to get (or take long) and be relatively strong. you know, the effort vs reward thing.... The "all classes to all factions" thing has absolutely nothing in common with that. As a matter of fact some capable players in the factions were willing to put the effort but couldn't rip the rewards due to mechanics ensuring they would not, or at least not anywhere as fast. The factions did not ask to get the rewards for half the effort, they simply asked for same effort = same reward, big difference.</span></p><p>You could easily gear a toon out in TSO raid gear in a couple months, yet you want PvP armor to take a year to obtain? Seriously why even have PvP armor then? The reason they have to make PvP armor easier to get now, is because it is insanely easy to clear TSO content, and gear up now that you have the gear to make it that much easier. I bet if you look at the number of raid patterns that have dropped server wide you would find more have dropped, than PvP pieces bought. They've seen these numbers, and are adjusting accordingly.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's BS. I've been raiding TSO since december, when my new toon got ready for it, and still lack some upgrades. Come next xpac I'm pretty sure I will still not wear all the raid loot I want, due to RNG being a beach, other ppl bidding on loot, and probably also some encounters being above our raid force capabilities (Munzok). You sound like anyone can zone in a TSO instance instance and pick the piece of gear he wants.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">TSO is an expansion where raid progression has been relatively slow, at least slower than ROK. Many guilds struggle with simple mobs like Thet or Switchmaster. Yes many patterns drop, but how many are from easy mobs that everyone already have (forearms, boots, gloves...) and how many are not needed by anyone in the raid due to no smartloot (yet). I'm willing to take the bet that way more players on nagy have their pvp chest and pants than their pve counterpart.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If raiding TSO is so "insanely easy", how come the most progressed guild on nagy hasn't cleared all instanced content yet - at least as far as I know - yet if I wanted to I could have the whole pvp set + rok jewelry since quite a while.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">With the exception of the 1 or 2 top guilds on each server, it takes most raiders a complete xpac to beat all the content, often they have to wait for next xpac gear or level cap increase to kill the "bosses" of an xpac. Many middle of the road raiders won't see their set chest in TSO, yet after maybe 2 weeks of TSO I could hail the pvp vendor and get my chest, or any other piece of gear I'd like for that matter.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You can discuss all you like about raid gear vs pvp gear difficulty to obtain, the fact remain you can AOE docks and get your best set piece in a few days on live. I'm very sorry this is not possible on the desert that venekor became, but this is no reason to give pvp gear for free.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">As it takes most raiders almost a complete xpac to gear up, I stand by my point it should take almost a complete xpac for a pvper to rip all the rewards. Of course their are the godmode guilds that make the progression and beat an xpac's content as soon as it's unlocked, but the same way we have players that pvp all day long and complete their pvp sets a few days after an xpac. Both are not the norm and shouldn't serve as a reference.</span></p><p>And you and I both know gear in this game makes a much bigger impact than skill. If you believe it doesn't I encourage you to run around in a T1 shard healer solo, without any PvP pieces, especially the Banshee Hoop.. Go, prove it.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I've nothing to prove as I agree it's mostly gear based. Once everyone runs around with the best gear, they will simply realize most fights are still predictable, as the outcome will simply be based on numbers and class(es), instead of gear. I just wonder how long ppl will enjoy this not-so-interesting pvp when there is no reward left to obtain.</span></p></blockquote>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The gear in T8, and the lack of level locking forced people to T8, and many did not choose to go to T8. A lot of people absolutely miss KoS PvP and would lock 70 toons if allowed to. Your point is lost on that simple fact.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So the solution to broken gear and sucky pvp at T8 is what ? to stick to T7 ? And what if T9 sucks too ? Stick to T7 again ? What about fixing pvp at the level cap instead ? I loved KOS pvp, but I want some ppl to fight, and as a matter of fact most targets are at the level cap (and would be even if locking was enabled). Actually your point is lost on the simple fact that Olihin said level locking wasn't coming back.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Say what? I said the reason there are very few T7 toons is because they can't lock, and are forced into T8 because of the xp's they gain in PvP. If they could lock I would bet 400 plat that you would have an equal number of ACTIVE T7 players that you do ACTIVE T8 players. Olihin said level locking is off the table for now, not that it will never happen.</span></p><p>Then for your sake we should go back to factions not having all classes, and we should not upgrade the PvP armor either. When we go back to the faction class restrictions we should also lose all of the raid gear we've obtained, and do it all over again, on hard.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I don't see where I asked for that, maybe you can enlighten me. My only point is either pvp gear should be easy to get and be relatively weak, or it should be difficult to get (or take long) and be relatively strong. you know, the effort vs reward thing.... The "all classes to all factions" thing has absolutely nothing in common with that. As a matter of fact some capable players in the factions were willing to put the effort but couldn't rip the rewards due to mechanics ensuring they would not, or at least not anywhere as fast. The factions did not ask to get the rewards for half the effort, they simply asked for same effort = same reward, big difference.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Actually the difference isn't that far fetched. Many faction players wanted all classes to make raiding easier. It was all a balance issue with gear, just like the current changes help to balance out the gear gap.</span></p><p>You could easily gear a toon out in TSO raid gear in a couple months, yet you want PvP armor to take a year to obtain? Seriously why even have PvP armor then? The reason they have to make PvP armor easier to get now, is because it is insanely easy to clear TSO content, and gear up now that you have the gear to make it that much easier. I bet if you look at the number of raid patterns that have dropped server wide you would find more have dropped, than PvP pieces bought. They've seen these numbers, and are adjusting accordingly.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's BS. I've been raiding TSO since december, when my new toon got ready for it, and still lack some upgrades. Come next xpac I'm pretty sure I will still not wear all the raid loot I want, due to RNG being a beach, other ppl bidding on loot, and probably also some encounters being above our raid force capabilities (Munzok). You sound like anyone can zone in a TSO instance instance and pick the piece of gear he wants.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">I never said you'd have all slots filled with raid gear, but if you're not horrible, you should have a full set of pattern gear by now. You have the population for it on Nagafen. However this is a PvP server, AND YOU SHOULD NEVER FORCE PEOPLE TO PVE TO COMPETE.  The best, and easiest rewards should come through PvP, on a PvP server.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">TSO is an expansion where raid progression has been relatively slow, at least slower than ROK. Many guilds struggle with simple mobs like Thet or Switchmaster. Yes many patterns drop, but how many are from easy mobs that everyone already have (forearms, boots, gloves...) and how many are not needed by anyone in the raid due to no smartloot (yet). I'm willing to take the bet that way more players on nagy have their pvp chest and pants than their pve counterpart.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">This would be because you can save your tokens, and pick that one piece of gear you want.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If raiding TSO is so "insanely easy", how come the most progressed guild on nagy hasn't cleared all instanced content yet - at least as far as I know - yet if I wanted to I could have the whole pvp set + rok jewelry since quite a while.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">I could have swore Onyx, Insurrection, Europa, Decay, and possibly even Fortitude all have access to all the raid set pieces. Not sure why Purity doesn't, but that is a different debate. I know a friend of mine, Inquisitor Thorny moved to Nagafen and had his raid set pieces in Europa pretty quickly.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">With the exception of the 1 or 2 top guilds on each server, it takes most raiders a complete xpac to beat all the content, often they have to wait for next xpac gear or level cap increase to kill the "bosses" of an xpac. Many middle of the road raiders won't see their set chest in TSO, yet after maybe 2 weeks of TSO I could hail the pvp vendor and get my chest, or any other piece of gear I'd like for that matter.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">THIS IS A PVP SERVER!! Say it with me; "this is a PvP server". The most rewarding experience should come through PvP, on a PvP server. There are a multitude of PvE servers if you feel PvE should be the most rewarding.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You can discuss all you like about raid gear vs pvp gear difficulty to obtain, the fact remain you can AOE docks and get your best set piece in a few days on live. I'm very sorry this is not possible on the desert that venekor became, but this is no reason to give pvp gear for free.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Try not punishing everyone for the nonsense of some. YOU should be trying to get it so that a person can't AoE to their hearts content, or zerg constantly and get rewarded.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">As it takes most raiders almost a complete xpac to gear up, I stand by my point it should take almost a complete xpac for a pvper to rip all the rewards. Of course their are the godmode guilds that make the progression and beat an xpac's content as soon as it's unlocked, but the same way we have players that pvp all day long and complete their pvp sets a few days after an xpac. Both are not the norm and shouldn't serve as a reference.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Most larger PvE guilds had a full set of raid pattern gear by March, 2009. I think even Onyx had access to a full set of pattern gear by then. The ONLY REASON the factions didn't was because many were still clearing VP after getting all classes and learning to build raids with all classes. Absolutely all of this has changed, and if factions had all classes to begin with, they would have cleared the content by April 2009.</span></p><p>And you and I both know gear in this game makes a much bigger impact than skill. If you believe it doesn't I encourage you to run around in a T1 shard healer solo, without any PvP pieces, especially the Banshee Hoop.. Go, prove it.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I've nothing to prove as I agree it's mostly gear based. Once everyone runs around with the best gear, they will simply realize most fights are still predictable, as the outcome will simply be based on numbers and class(es), instead of gear. I just wonder how long ppl will enjoy this not-so-interesting pvp when there is no reward left to obtain.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">If it is so easy to get PvP gear on Nagafen, then you guys all already have your gear, or you've been lying about the ease of getting PvP gear. So this entire argument is moot because people have been fighting for months with nothing to gain.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">I'm a casual player, and I absolutely abhor raiding, but I have across three toons 17+ raid pieces, three patterns each (boots, forearms, and gloves) while only having four PvP pieces, PERIOD. So in the last year I've found getting raid gear easier, much, much easier so I'm forced to raid when I want to only do PvP.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The gear in T8, and the lack of level locking forced people to T8, and many did not choose to go to T8. A lot of people absolutely miss KoS PvP and would lock 70 toons if allowed to. Your point is lost on that simple fact.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So the solution to broken gear and sucky pvp at T8 is what ? to stick to T7 ? And what if T9 sucks too ? Stick to T7 again ? What about fixing pvp at the level cap instead ? I loved KOS pvp, but I want some ppl to fight, and as a matter of fact most targets are at the level cap (and would be even if locking was enabled). Actually your point is lost on the simple fact that Olihin said level locking wasn't coming back.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Say what? I said the reason there are very few T7 toons is because they can't lock, and are forced into T8 because of the xp's they gain in PvP. If they could lock I would bet 400 plat that you would have an equal number of ACTIVE T7 players that you do ACTIVE T8 players. Olihin said level locking is off the table for now, not that it will never happen.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Well actually both you and I can't know how many players would have sticked to T7, given the possibility. Unless locking was reenabled, this is all assumptions and personnal opinions from our side. Though let me just remind you when T7 was the cap, most lockers were in T2 - T4. If T7 was that great why didn't they pvp at the cap with everyne else ?</span></p><p>Then for your sake we should go back to factions not having all classes, and we should not upgrade the PvP armor either. When we go back to the faction class restrictions we should also lose all of the raid gear we've obtained, and do it all over again, on hard.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I don't see where I asked for that, maybe you can enlighten me. My only point is either pvp gear should be easy to get and be relatively weak, or it should be difficult to get (or take long) and be relatively strong. you know, the effort vs reward thing.... The "all classes to all factions" thing has absolutely nothing in common with that. As a matter of fact some capable players in the factions were willing to put the effort but couldn't rip the rewards due to mechanics ensuring they would not, or at least not anywhere as fast. The factions did not ask to get the rewards for half the effort, they simply asked for same effort = same reward, big difference.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Actually the difference isn't that far fetched. Many faction players wanted all classes to make raiding easier. It was all a balance issue with gear, just like the current changes help to balance out the gear gap.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I'm all for boosting pvp gear somehow. I have nothing against making pvp gear on par with the pve set. I'm not the one who brought raiding in that discussion btw.... My concern is that it is already easy enough to get on live, and will be stupidly easy to get come next LU. Again I repeat my point because it seems hard to grasp for you: if pvp is easy to get, it shouldn't be that good, if it's the best or on par with the best gear, it should take a huge amount of effort.</span></p><p>You could easily gear a toon out in TSO raid gear in a couple months, yet you want PvP armor to take a year to obtain? Seriously why even have PvP armor then? The reason they have to make PvP armor easier to get now, is because it is insanely easy to clear TSO content, and gear up now that you have the gear to make it that much easier. I bet if you look at the number of raid patterns that have dropped server wide you would find more have dropped, than PvP pieces bought. They've seen these numbers, and are adjusting accordingly.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's BS. I've been raiding TSO since december, when my new toon got ready for it, and still lack some upgrades. Come next xpac I'm pretty sure I will still not wear all the raid loot I want, due to RNG being a beach, other ppl bidding on loot, and probably also some encounters being above our raid force capabilities (Munzok). You sound like anyone can zone in a TSO instance instance and pick the piece of gear he wants.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">I never said you'd have all slots filled with raid gear, but if you're not horrible, you should have a full set of pattern gear by now. You have the population for it on Nagafen. However this is a PvP server, AND YOU SHOULD NEVER FORCE PEOPLE TO PVE TO COMPETE.  The best, and easiest rewards should come through PvP, on a PvP server.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And if you are not horrible at pvp and seriously dedicated to it, you should have several toons with complete TSO pvp sets at this time. So again why do we have to make it easier when most dedicated pvpers already completed their set when most dedicated raiders did not ?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">TSO is an expansion where raid progression has been relatively slow, at least slower than ROK. Many guilds struggle with simple mobs like Thet or Switchmaster. Yes many patterns drop, but how many are from easy mobs that everyone already have (forearms, boots, gloves...) and how many are not needed by anyone in the raid due to no smartloot (yet). I'm willing to take the bet that way more players on nagy have their pvp chest and pants than their pve counterpart.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">This would be because you can save your tokens, and pick that one piece of gear you want.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yeah thanks for pointing this obvious advantage when it comes to pvp gear. One more reason to make it not so easy to get.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If raiding TSO is so "insanely easy", how come the most progressed guild on nagy hasn't cleared all instanced content yet - at least as far as I know - yet if I wanted to I could have the whole pvp set + rok jewelry since quite a while.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">I could have swore Onyx, Insurrection, Europa, Decay, and possibly even Fortitude all have access to all the raid set pieces. Not sure why Purity doesn't, but that is a different debate. I know a friend of mine, Inquisitor Thorny moved to Nagafen and had his raid set pieces in Europa pretty quickly.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">We have our chests too thank you for worrying about our progress though. I saw my chest drop the other day. More than 6 months after I got my pvp chest. Says a lot imo. (on a side note my pvp chest is better). Europa killed Anashti recently too. Had Thorny been on nagy since TSO release he would have completed his pvp set long ago.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">With the exception of the 1 or 2 top guilds on each server, it takes most raiders a complete xpac to beat all the content, often they have to wait for next xpac gear or level cap increase to kill the "bosses" of an xpac. Many middle of the road raiders won't see their set chest in TSO, yet after maybe 2 weeks of TSO I could hail the pvp vendor and get my chest, or any other piece of gear I'd like for that matter.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">THIS IS A PVP SERVER!! Say it with me; "this is a PvP server". The most rewarding experience should come through PvP, on a PvP server. There are a multitude of PvE servers if you feel PvE should be the most rewarding.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Again I never said that. Try and read better.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You can discuss all you like about raid gear vs pvp gear difficulty to obtain, the fact remain you can AOE docks and get your best set piece in a few days on live. I'm very sorry this is not possible on the desert that venekor became, but this is no reason to give pvp gear for free.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Try not punishing everyone for the nonsense of some. YOU should be trying to get it so that a person can't AoE to their hearts content, or zerg constantly and get rewarded.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I've been trying, as you probably know, with little success. Instead of addressing this issue everyone will now get pvp gear for free. We'll see how it works out.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">As it takes most raiders almost a complete xpac to gear up, I stand by my point it should take almost a complete xpac for a pvper to rip all the rewards. Of course their are the godmode guilds that make the progression and beat an xpac's content as soon as it's unlocked, but the same way we have players that pvp all day long and complete their pvp sets a few days after an xpac. Both are not the norm and shouldn't serve as a reference.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Most larger PvE guilds had a full set of raid pattern gear by March, 2009. I think even Onyx had access to a full set of pattern gear by then. The ONLY REASON the factions didn't was because many were still clearing VP after getting all classes and learning to build raids with all classes. Absolutely all of this has changed, and if factions had all classes to begin with, they would have cleared the content by April 2009.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That would be only most dedicated guilds, a handful per server. A lot of pve raid guilds are still struggling in mid TSO content. Again the few most successfull shouldn't serve as a reference. The same way if token gear requirements were set to keep you busy for 1 year some would have finished their set after 1 month, due to higher playtime/dedication. Exceptions don't make rules.</span></p><p>And you and I both know gear in this game makes a much bigger impact than skill. If you believe it doesn't I encourage you to run around in a T1 shard healer solo, without any PvP pieces, especially the Banshee Hoop.. Go, prove it.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I've nothing to prove as I agree it's mostly gear based. Once everyone runs around with the best gear, they will simply realize most fights are still predictable, as the outcome will simply be based on numbers and class(es), instead of gear. I just wonder how long ppl will enjoy this not-so-interesting pvp when there is no reward left to obtain.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">If it is so easy to get PvP gear on Nagafen, then you guys all already have your gear, or you've been lying about the ease of getting PvP gear. So this entire argument is moot because people have been fighting for months with nothing to gain.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yes who would have imagined it's hard to get pvp gear on venekor eh ? Most ppl I know already got all the gear they want, yes. In my experience a lot of players quit pvping, at least full time pvping, once they got the rewards. Some keep doing it from time to time for the fun aspect, but nowhere near as regularly.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">I'm a casual player, and I absolutely abhor raiding, but I have across three toons 17+ raid pieces, three patterns each (boots, forearms, and gloves) while only having four PvP pieces, PERIOD. So in the last year I've found getting raid gear easier, much, much easier so I'm forced to raid when I want to only do PvP.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you have only 4 pieces it's either because you don't pvp enough or you play on the wrong server. Pretty sure your friend Darkor got a complete set or close to, and that's on venekor...</span></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

[Neskonlith]

<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yet at the end of it all, this is still a game played for <em>fun</em>... T8 is nearly gone, so why cry foul when starving players are finally thrown a bone near the end?  This game cannot remain unbalanced forever and expect to remain healthy.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Perhaps as the gear gap narrows, the people who were once too squishy and stayed in safer areas will now feel brave enough to think they stand a chance and move out further.</span></p>

[Brimestar]

<p>No one should be "handed" gear...Just cos you were on Venekor....You made the choice to stay when you could had xfered....Reduce the cost, fine...But to go from 150 writs to 30....and the fact that class updates are no longer required is foul.</p>

[Kurindor_Mythecnea]

<p><span style="color: #ffff00;">I think regional, cyclical PvP objectives or the re-introduction of fame loss and the removal of fame decay while offline would <strong>ensure people don't hibernate after gearing out like THEY DO. I like to think people dont have to spend 3 months playing 5 hrs a day 5 days a week to equip themselves competently, and this change will enforce that...I just feel it's odd that TSO crit mit costs less than RoK...so I'd say, if these low rates are to be kept, then either lower the cost of RoK gear by 5 writs or increase the cost of TSO gear by 5 writs (per piece). There will always be extreme cases of excessive dedication to luxury, thus, there are toons like me, who had a full set of PvP crit only a week after being 80.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">You can't balance a game around the lowest common denominator, the hardcore players, when most are casual who probably never see the chance at a progressive raid guild clearing TSO content. Sure, make difficult objectives that can engender the formation of long-term goals, but that can be done by adding nifty mounts or jewelry to sell from the TSO merchant for the old rates, or double the old rates (100, 150, 200, or 300 tokens). Aside from that, adding circuit-like, regional-based PvP objectives, I feel, is the only way to truly invigorate open world PvP.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Whether it's energize orb of anashti X by having Qs or Freeps battle to charge it up using a consecutive series of their faction-owned, proprietary generators or a cluster of keeps/ruts/embankments that have to be captured with a ticket-like system that ticks down faster with more allies around (first hitting neutral if captured by the enemy, then being obtained by your faction), classic capture the flag, classic hold on to this weird item until it replenishes enough energy to completely annihilate the enemies, etc, there are a lot of interesting things that can be done and a lot more if there are perimeters where encounter size limitations trigger (so that there could be, say, 10-20 of these in Nektulos Forest, Kylong Plains, etc, with the zone awarding bonus effects for the side winning the most). Encounter size limitations would be regulations on PvP objectives made for 1 group, quattros, trios, duos, solos, and anything above or below that form factor wouldnt be able to be attacked or attack.</span></p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Brimestar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No one should be "handed" gear...Just cos you were on Venekor....You made the choice to stay when you could had xfered....Reduce the cost, fine...But to go from 150 writs to 30....and the fact that class updates are no longer required is foul.</p></blockquote><p>No, I did not have a choice. It might be news flash for you, but people have real lives they have to think about first.</p><p>I have five accounts I pay for, two for my kids, my wifes, mine, and my cousins. I can not pay to transfer all of those accounts, the multitude of crafters my wife has (she does not like asking other price gougers for stuff to be made), nor do I (we) have the time to redo all of that on Nagafen on top of releveling a guild to level 80.</p><p>So no, we really didn't have a choice, and we got cheated the last year. Sony should be happy we stuck it out this long.</p><p>As for the gear being free, you and I both know it isn't free, you're just being stupid about it. There is FIVE MONTHS till the next expansion, that isn't that long so in order to allow EVERYONE including casual players and yes Venekor players the chance to experience this new gear, they made it easier. Boo hooo, cry about it. You didn't have to deal with what we had to the last year.</p><p>I'd wager you two were part of the lavazerg and got your PvP gear easy, which is pretty funny considering.</p>

[Brimestar]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Brimestar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No one should be "handed" gear...Just cos you were on Venekor....You made the choice to stay when you could had xfered....Reduce the cost, fine...But to go from 150 writs to 30....and the fact that class updates are no longer required is foul.</p></blockquote><p>No, I did not have a choice. It might be news flash for you, but people have real lives they have to think about first.</p><p>I have five accounts I pay for, two for my kids, my wifes, mine, and my cousins. I can not pay to transfer all of those accounts, the multitude of crafters my wife has (she does not like asking other price gougers for stuff to be made), nor do I (we) have the time to redo all of that on Nagafen on top of releveling a guild to level 80.</p><p>So no, we really didn't have a choice, and we got cheated the last year. Sony should be happy we stuck it out this long.</p><p>As for the gear being free, you and I both know it isn't free, you're just being stupid about it. There is FIVE MONTHS till the next expansion, that isn't that long so in order to allow EVERYONE including casual players and yes Venekor players the chance to experience this new gear, they made it easier. Boo hooo, cry about it. You didn't have to deal with what we had to the last year.</p><p>I'd wager you two were part of the lavazerg and got your PvP gear easy, which is pretty funny considering.</p></blockquote><p>News Flash, so do I...There are periods of time I may work 50 hours a week etc etc walk up hill in the snow both ways to work...Regardless, I got my gear not via the lava zerg perhaps you did since you seem to know so much about it and the fact your so sensitive about the matter I think you should check yourself and re-look at your comments son....Isn't it 25.00 now? You could had xferd over a toon, but you made the choice not to do it. So be it, I'm not knocking that. But just cos you made that choice, doesn't mean the entire community should cater to your needs of having easy access to pvp gear.</p><p>And I still manage to get all my pvp gear, this is my 3rd full set. Oh, you're right, I got all my writs completed by killing greys...you got me...Next time instead of theorizing how ppl got their gear, provide some constructive criticism on why you think it should change to what they are proposing.</p>

[Cyst]

<p>Well let me use what you said against you. Grab a mirror for this!</p><p><strong>Next time instead of theorizing how ppl got their gear, provide some constructive criticism on why you think it should change to what they are proposing.</strong></p><p>While you've been zerging KP, and Lavastorm docks, we havn't had that choice. YOU got PvP gear on easy mode while Venekor players had to work, and spend an enormous amount of time to get their gear. So don't talk to me about easy when you've never gone TWO HOURS and not seen a soul.</p><p>But yeah, you are right, I chose to stay on Venekor with my wife, my two children, my cousin, and my two best friends instead of spending money that best went towards bills, or our retirement.</p><p>Let me know when you come up with a good, REAL logical reasoning why this change shouldn't happen with only FIVE MONTHS left till the expansion considering PvE gear has been made much easier to get by nerfing most raid mobs, making it much easier to transfer extra loot to alts through the massive amount of Heirloom items going into the game, and not to mention people running grey shards. I'll wait for your logic.</p>

[Brimestar]

<p>I came from Venekor, and that is all I have to say about that.</p>

[Paikis]

<p>Two expansions ago does not count as 'coming from venekor' Brimestar. You have no idea how dead Venekor is.</p>

[Brimestar]

It's all semantics at this point, and I have stopped by on other toons from time to time...I understand what is going on and am glad I xferd when I did. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cyst]

<p>Lets us also mention that a good raid guild that is well establish could easily clear the entire TSO expansion in one, single, day. That's a lot of loot in one day of easy, boring PvE.</p><p>I've had more PvP on test in the last three days than I've had the last year on Venekor. I logged late this morning with a 87 kill streak. My god it felt good to have targets again.</p>

[Cloakentuna]

<p><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Two expansions ago does not count as 'coming from venekor' Brimestar. You have no idea how dead Venekor is.</p></blockquote><p>He came over when it was free, don't blame him for being intelligent.</p><p>But, getting back on topic...</p><p>Runed Mobius Strip.  This item now takes over as the single most OP item in PvP, the title previously held by the Banshee Hoop.</p><p>The nerf on the crit mit for the armor may have been a little overboard.  I think a middle ground of 15 on the BP would have been fine, maybe 15 on the pants too, I haven't really looked at all the pieces to see what the crit mit was made to.  You say 50 is enough for PvP, but cI think 60 would be a fine number to get to with full pvp gear.</p><p>The RoK PvP Jewlery actually looks half decent now, especially for PvP use, though the Polaris Orb is kind of meh.</p><p>Haven't gotten to use the Priest of Discord yet as it hasn't been put in game.  Haven't been to KP to check out the rez points/find the new writ giver.</p><p>I'm sure I've forgotten some stuff, but it will come to me later so I'll make another post.</p><p>Edit: 1 more thing.</p><p>Those new signets you put in are completely overpowered, especially the 5 minute recast immune to everything but charm one.  Are you high?  A mentally handicapped monkey with a stick could figure out how to use that effectively.  How about something similar for mages that makes it so you can't be interrupted or resisted for 15 seconds?  Something, anything that slows down the slide of the mages to the bottom of the barrel for pvp.</p>

[Cyst]

<p>Froglegg</p><p>No one could have known back then when Venekor had a population that it would have tanked. Most people left because they did not want to deal with the Euro servers merging with Venekor.</p><p>Seriously man get up to date. They reduced the proc chance on the Runed Mobius Strip, and it is fine now and should probably get a 5% increase in proc chance since the resist rate on this proc is insanely high. So far my logs are showing a 65% resist rate, with peaks over 70%. <strong>But you've tested this, right?</strong> The Soulshattering Band is still MUCH, MUCH BETTER, and you and I know there is an even better item in Tomb of the Mad Crusader, not to mention the Zarrakon healer item which IS OVERPOWERED!</p><p>Mages are fine. In T2 shard armor I was running around on Cyst doing very well, even scored a kill on Symbiotic once I respect back into Manashield, after eating a 6k HT while not having Manshield. I then made a Coercor, and only died to Bruisers one vs one. Amnesia is a wonderful thing.</p><p>Since you know how to use these signets, tell us.. I'm curious because me, and some others have ACTUALLY DONE THE TESTS on them. Show me what you know, or don't know.</p><p>One of the MAJOR problems I've seen so far is damage has increased quite a bit, and it is hard for me to adjust to it as a healer. I'm even doing quite a bit more damage on my Warlock than I do live.</p>

[Brimestar]

Fluffypaws and I had a chance to have a go at each other and just the clicky ward itself if OP...Its a self regenerating 5k ward that lasts for a minute. Along with all the orange and red numbers going over our heads were some dark greens. 2k may be a little more in line or just let it be 5k and not self regenerating.

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Brimestar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Fluffypaws and I had a chance to have a go at each other and just the clicky ward itself if OP...Its a self regenerating 5k ward that lasts for a minute. Along with all the orange and red numbers going over our heads were some dark greens. 2k may be a little more in line or just let it be 5k and not self regenerating.</blockquote><p>The ward is actually the only thing I havn't tested. I tested the immunity to CC because I knew it would be a hot button, and quite frankly if you let the CC immunities effect you, you were going to die anyhow.</p><p>If the ward is regenerating it should be changed, not doubt about that. If the ward is regenerating I doubt anyone would use the others. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I just can't get my ACT to work all the time on test. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Cloakentuna]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Froglegg</p><p>No one could have known back then when Venekor had a population that it would have tanked. Most people left because they did not want to deal with the Euro servers merging with Venekor.</p><p>Seriously man get up to date. They reduced the proc chance on the Runed Mobius Strip, and it is fine now and should probably get a 5% increase in proc chance since the resist rate on this proc is insanely high. So far my logs are showing a 65% resist rate, with peaks over 70%. <strong>But you've tested this, right?</strong> The Soulshattering Band is still MUCH, MUCH BETTER, and you and I know there is an even better item in Tomb of the Mad Crusader, not to mention the Zarrakon healer item which IS OVERPOWERED!</p><p>Mages are fine. In T2 shard armor I was running around on Cyst doing very well, even scored a kill on Symbiotic once I respect back into Manashield, after eating a 6k HT while not having Manshield. I then made a Coercor, and only died to Bruisers one vs one. Amnesia is a wonderful thing.</p><p>Since you know how to use these signets, tell us.. I'm curious because me, and some others have ACTUALLY DONE THE TESTS on them. Show me what you know, or don't know.</p><p>One of the MAJOR problems I've seen so far is damage has increased quite a bit, and it is hard for me to adjust to it as a healer. I'm even doing quite a bit more damage on my Warlock than I do live.</p></blockquote><p>I'm sorry you couldn't see back then that transfering off a lower pop server to a higher pop one was not a good idea.</p><p>Grats on your 2 minutes of mage experience though.  It is a fact that resists in T8 are completely and utterly broken and need looked at.  Grats on killing Symbiotic, easily one of the worst SKs to ever play this game, though!</p><p>As I've said, its not that hard to figure out how to use the signets, a mentally handicapped monkey (for lack of a better term) could figure it out.  But then again, that would be slightly above you in terms of IQ so I can understand why you can't understand.</p>

[Kurindor_Mythecnea]

<p><span style="color: #ffff00;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>LOWBIE PVP GEAR - NEEDS IMPROVEMENT</strong></span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffff00;">My first impression is that the old PvP gear offered from levels 10-64 is inadequately upgraded and might scarcely be used due to better alternatives available with more even  +spell/combat art damage modifiers, on top of such gear having an absence of class-specific statistical concentration - revise it to include such. Aside from that, xegonite devout should have its +disruption mods nerfed because no other sets of gear drastically increase a player's level so far above their norm.</span></span></p>

[Cloakentuna]

<p><cite>Seliri@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffff00;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>LOWBIE PVP GEAR - NEEDS IMPROVEMENT</strong></span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffff00;">My first impression is that the old PvP gear offered from levels 10-64 is inadequately upgraded and might scarcely be used due to better alternatives available with more even  +spell/combat art damage modifiers, on top of such gear having an absence of class-specific statistical concentration - revise it to include such. Aside from that, xegonite devout should have its +disruption mods nerfed because no other sets of gear drastically increase a player's level so far above their norm.</span></span></p></blockquote><p>Yes that was another thing I noticed.  The lowbie pvp gear just got its +sta and what not increased, which really means nothing.  It is still inferior to treasured crap you can pick up anywhere that has the +spell damage and what not on it.</p>

[Bigmik22]

<p>I like the new item cost.</p><p>Raiding gear hard to get? We are x months into the expansion... you join a raid guild, get full TSO armor within a week or sitting out in GH... is that hard?</p><p>Dock rez zerging for hours and hours is stupid and annoying. Due to a big amount of tokens this is the only type of pvp worth doing if you actually wanna get the armor before the expansion comes out.</p><p>EQ2 is gear-based. People with a lot lot more gear will kill people without it really easily. If you have no perspective of getting a comparable (but still worse) gear to that of raiders, you have no chance to compete against most. That means people giving up pvp, or playing only in x2 raids hunting solo people, cause that is the only way to get an update.</p><p>This update means more motivation to go out and pvp, and it means more competition in a the long picture. That is what we pvpers are after, right? Competition. Skill vs skill. Not ganking ungeared newbies. Am I wrong?</p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Froglegg</p><p>No one could have known back then when Venekor had a population that it would have tanked. Most people left because they did not want to deal with the Euro servers merging with Venekor.</p><p>Seriously man get up to date. They reduced the proc chance on the Runed Mobius Strip, and it is fine now and should probably get a 5% increase in proc chance since the resist rate on this proc is insanely high. So far my logs are showing a 65% resist rate, with peaks over 70%. <strong>But you've tested this, right?</strong> The Soulshattering Band is still MUCH, MUCH BETTER, and you and I know there is an even better item in Tomb of the Mad Crusader, not to mention the Zarrakon healer item which IS OVERPOWERED!</p><p>Mages are fine. In T2 shard armor I was running around on Cyst doing very well, even scored a kill on Symbiotic once I respect back into Manashield, after eating a 6k HT while not having Manshield. I then made a Coercor, and only died to Bruisers one vs one. Amnesia is a wonderful thing.</p><p>Since you know how to use these signets, tell us.. I'm curious because me, and some others have ACTUALLY DONE THE TESTS on them. Show me what you know, or don't know.</p><p>One of the MAJOR problems I've seen so far is damage has increased quite a bit, and it is hard for me to adjust to it as a healer. I'm even doing quite a bit more damage on my Warlock than I do live.</p></blockquote><p>I'm sorry you couldn't see back then that transfering off a lower pop server to a higher pop one was not a good idea.</p><p>Grats on your 2 minutes of mage experience though.  It is a fact that resists in T8 are completely and utterly broken and need looked at.  Grats on killing Symbiotic, easily one of the worst SKs to ever play this game, though!</p><p>As I've said, its not that hard to figure out how to use the signets, a mentally handicapped monkey (for lack of a better term) could figure it out.  But then again, that would be slightly above you in terms of IQ so I can understand why you can't understand.</p></blockquote><p>And it isn't hard to figure out how to counter those Signets, I did it. Why can't you?</p><p>I've logged 32 hours of actual testing, what have you done? Run around, look at the stuff, whine a bit, and speculate how you can't figure out how to counter it?</p><p>I've seen one overpowered item, and it should be taken care of.</p>

[Orthureon]

<p>Don't let this thread fool you, it appears to be a veiled attempt to keep their gear advantage. Besides being so close to the x-pac no one should worry about it.</p>

[Cloakentuna]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Froglegg</p><p>No one could have known back then when Venekor had a population that it would have tanked. Most people left because they did not want to deal with the Euro servers merging with Venekor.</p><p>Seriously man get up to date. They reduced the proc chance on the Runed Mobius Strip, and it is fine now and should probably get a 5% increase in proc chance since the resist rate on this proc is insanely high. So far my logs are showing a 65% resist rate, with peaks over 70%. <strong>But you've tested this, right?</strong> The Soulshattering Band is still MUCH, MUCH BETTER, and you and I know there is an even better item in Tomb of the Mad Crusader, not to mention the Zarrakon healer item which IS OVERPOWERED!</p><p>Mages are fine. In T2 shard armor I was running around on Cyst doing very well, even scored a kill on Symbiotic once I respect back into Manashield, after eating a 6k HT while not having Manshield. I then made a Coercor, and only died to Bruisers one vs one. Amnesia is a wonderful thing.</p><p>Since you know how to use these signets, tell us.. I'm curious because me, and some others have ACTUALLY DONE THE TESTS on them. Show me what you know, or don't know.</p><p>One of the MAJOR problems I've seen so far is damage has increased quite a bit, and it is hard for me to adjust to it as a healer. I'm even doing quite a bit more damage on my Warlock than I do live.</p></blockquote><p>I'm sorry you couldn't see back then that transfering off a lower pop server to a higher pop one was not a good idea.</p><p>Grats on your 2 minutes of mage experience though.  It is a fact that resists in T8 are completely and utterly broken and need looked at.  Grats on killing Symbiotic, easily one of the worst SKs to ever play this game, though!</p><p>As I've said, its not that hard to figure out how to use the signets, a mentally handicapped monkey (for lack of a better term) could figure it out.  But then again, that would be slightly above you in terms of IQ so I can understand why you can't understand.</p></blockquote><p>And it isn't hard to figure out how to counter those Signets, I did it. Why can't you?</p><p>I've logged 32 hours of actual testing, what have you done? Run around, look at the stuff, whine a bit, and speculate how you can't figure out how to counter it?</p><p>I've seen one overpowered item, and it should be taken care of.</p></blockquote><p>Please show me where I said I coulnd't couter it.  Please show me where I said the item would destroy me.  You can't.  Congrats, you found the best spell that ever existed in PvP.  I've been beating people who double Bristlebane me or use the Karana immune to control since before you ever thought about touching a Coercer.  But then again, Coercers aren't the only mages there are.  How would you suggest an illy counter it?  Or a summoner who can't root, stun, or fear someone?  Don't assume that because I call something OP means it affects me at all.  I've been playing my toon long enough to know what it is capable of and how to answer the curve balls people throw during fights.</p><p>I've put plenty of hours in on Test, do I have an exact count?  no.  Have I been on test the past few days?  Nope, but then again, its a holiday weekend, I've been on and off playing the whole weekend, get back to me on Tuesday.</p>

[Cyst]

<p>You still havn't told me how these items work, which is a simple sentance, or a three step count which leads me to believe you're just speculating.</p><p>If they don't effect YOU, than how do you know others will not find ways to counter it?</p><p>I've rooted just fine on my Warlock, but then again I understand how these items work. I'll be trying an Illusionist, Troubador, and Conjuror next week after I do some research on their spells.</p>

[Cloakentuna]

<p>The items work only in pvp combat and don't cure the detrimental, yes, this much is easy to figure out.  However, as I've said, that isn't that hard to fix at all, you just have to be creative.  Think!</p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The items work only in pvp combat and don't cure the detrimental, yes, this much is easy to figure out.  However, as I've said, that isn't that hard to fix at all, you just have to be creative.  Think!</p></blockquote><p>I'll play the people have to pay more attention card. If you're suprised and someone locks in combat with you, and uses this item immediately, it could pose a problem, but you could just run away at 75%-100%, and come back after 10 seconds, couldn't you? I would do this anyway if I were a caster because the scouts probably already temp buffed while you wasn't paying attention.</p><p>If they don't use it first, and you mesmerize them, then nothing has changed really, has it?</p><p>As for group on group these items are no more powerful than Sanctuary, or self curing Inquisitors/Defilers.</p>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll play the people have to pay more attention card. If you're suprised and someone locks in combat with you, and uses this item immediately, it could pose a problem, but you could just run away at 75%-100%, and come back after 10 seconds, couldn't you? I would do this anyway if I were a caster because the scouts probably already temp buffed while you wasn't paying attention.</p></blockquote><p>Well I guess in a theoritical world where roots, snares, fettering/stun poison, tribunal cloak, and actually control effects in general would not exist, and where casters would get high avoidance and mitigation, running away from a scout would be a good strategy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Sadly this world does not look like EQ2 pvp. Oh they'd have to remove bows too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Lleren]

<p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And to answer your question "how much time", I think getting all pvp gear (armor set jewelry and weapons) on one toon should keep an average player busy for the lifetime of an xpac.</p></blockquote><p>I think on the pvp server the goal is to pvp, not farm gear so you can pvp better.  The very best pvp gear should rival any other attainable gear in the game, and be better for pvp.</p><p>I don't even play on a pvp server and I know this.</p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Llyren@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And to answer your question "how much time", I think getting all pvp gear (armor set jewelry and weapons) on one toon should keep an average player busy for the lifetime of an xpac.</p></blockquote><p>I think on the pvp server the goal is to pvp, not farm gear so you can pvp better.  The very best pvp gear should rival any other attainable gear in the game, and be better for pvp.</p><p>I don't even play on a pvp server and I know this.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you!!</p>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Llyren@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And to answer your question "how much time", I think getting all pvp gear (armor set jewelry and weapons) on one toon should keep an average player busy for the lifetime of an xpac.</p></blockquote><p>The very best pvp gear should rival any other attainable gear in the game, and be better for pvp.</p></blockquote><p>And once again I never said it should not, so please don't quote me if your post does not relate to what I write. Or link me the posts where I said pve gear should be the best...</p><p>I just have a problem with rewarding ppl with the best gear in game for little to no effort, but maybe it's just me, in which case just let it be and we'll see...</p><p>Btw there is only one set of T8 pvp gear per class, so there is no such thing as "very best pvp gear". There is just "the pvp gear" and that's it. Maybe this issue would be easier to deal with if pvp gear was tiered like pve gear, idk.</p>

[SumOldMan]

<p>I think that these types of changes are very dangerous especially with other alternatives close to release. I hope that SOE will take another look at this before it actually gets released. As far as the PvP gear goes, it is just turning into a case of the rich getting richer.</p><p>I would say as a general rule, its not a good idea to make gear available to solo players that is the equivalent of what takes a full raid to get off of raid bosses over the course of several months. The behavior that this change is going to reinforce is playing whatever the Overpowered classes are at that time (currently the PvP dev agreed that this list is non bard scouts and crusaders) or running around in full groups looking to kill solo questers. Is that PvP? Not in my opinion, people come to PvP servers for many reasons, and its not always to inflate a woefully low self esteem in an online game.</p><p>A couple things need to happen here, in my opinion. First, the gear needs to be scaled back so that it (at the best) is the rough equivalent of Kunark or t2 shard gear. A solo overpowered character or a gank group should not be able to obtain the best gear that raiders spend months in acquiring.</p><p>Next, the other factor that overwhelms PvP on our server, is class imbalance. When this game was first released, classed we not very balanced for PvE. There was a lot of work done and then around LU 13 or so (i think) the rebalancing started to happen. It was actually a great idea, balance the dps for a class around the utility each class provides. This was great for a while, but eventually the scouts got a HUGE dps increase because they argued that most of their utility was not great for PvE, and why would anywone take a scout over a mage?</p><p>This was all well and good, but when the PvP servers opened, there either was not a PvP rebalancing or it was so ineffective as to appear to not have happened. Althouogh this affects crusader as well, lets take a look at the scouts, currently with the exception of the bards, scouts have T1 Dps and T1 PvP utility -- this needs to change. Lets take a look at some of the PvP utility they have --</p><p>Stealth</p><p>Track</p><p>Poisons that snare, stun, drain mana, etc</p><p>Evac</p><p>CA with no casting times with amazing range</p><p>Ridiculous Auto-attack damage</p><p>Longest range (rangers)</p><p>Roots, Snare, Stun, Interrupts (which dont appear to have an immunity timer)</p><p>Ability to stealth in combat while moving</p><p>Run speed which in some instances is better than Bards or most other classes</p><p>Chain armor -- 2nd best in the game</p><p>These are just off of the top of my head, I am sure there are more. In addition, to all of this, they get T1 dps. This is why it seems that every other character on the server is a scout of some type. It is also why of all oof the least played classes on the server, 4 of them are mages. If you are intent on having PvP that means something and is a challenge for all, please please please do a PvP rebalancing prior to releasing this update. In my opinion, scouts should be moved to T3 dps AT the best for PvP. Other than the crusaders, no other group has this combination of utility and dps.</p>

[Kurindor_Mythecnea]

<p><cite>Llyren@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And to answer your question "how much time", I think getting all pvp gear (armor set jewelry and weapons) on one toon should keep an average player busy for the lifetime of an xpac.</p></blockquote><p>I think on the pvp server the goal is to pvp, not farm gear so you can pvp better.  The very best pvp gear should rival any other attainable gear in the game, and be better for pvp.</p><p>I don't even play on a pvp server and I know this.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">I agree with Llyren, but like I mentioned earlier, a lot of the anxious, dynamic action occurs when there is a cyclical objective. Ours was removed in nerfing fame to have PvP titles decay while offline. A lot of people simply dont have pressure to go out there to attain anything from PvP, so a lot of what I think I've been seeing is activity only when a particular side is capable of out-ganking (outnumbering) the other. Fame should NOT decay while offline and that is the most vital aspect of feedback that designers have been ignoring. Simply put, having a cyclical objective (like PvP titles you can lose or gain) gives you more reason to put yourself out there aside from being a token update for a gank squad or searching for the same thing with one.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Aside from that, I don't think equipping a toon in the most competent gear for an expansion pack should be required to take over a year or even half a year*, because there are 6 or 11 other slots available to people who shouldn't feel constrained by excessive time sinks.</span></p><p><em><span style="color: #ffff00;">* Editted 9-11-2009 *</span></em></p>

[Paikis]

<p><cite>SumOldMan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think that these types of changes are very dangerous especially with other alternatives close to release. I hope that SOE will take another look at this before it actually gets released. As far as the PvP gear goes, it is just turning into a case of the rich getting richer.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(1)</span> I would say as a general rule, its not a good idea to make gear available to solo players that is the equivalent of what takes a full raid to get off of raid bosses over the course of several months. The behavior that this change is going to reinforce is playing whatever the Overpowered classes are at that time (currently the PvP dev agreed that this list is non bard scouts and crusaders) or running around in full groups looking to kill solo questers. Is that PvP? Not in my opinion, people come to PvP servers for many reasons, and its not always to inflate a woefully low self esteem in an online game.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(2)</span> A couple things need to happen here, in my opinion. First, the gear needs to be scaled back so that it (at the best) is the rough equivalent of Kunark or t2 shard gear. A solo overpowered character or a gank group should not be able to obtain the best gear that raiders spend months in acquiring.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(3)</span>Next, the other factor that overwhelms PvP on our server, is class imbalance. When this game was first released, classed we not very balanced for PvE. There was a lot of work done and then around LU 13 or so (i think) the rebalancing started to happen. It was actually a great idea, balance the dps for a class around the utility each class provides. This was great for a while, but eventually the scouts got a HUGE dps increase because they argued that most of their utility was not great for PvE, and why would anywone take a scout over a mage?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(4)</span>This was all well and good, but when the PvP servers opened, there either was not a PvP rebalancing or it was so ineffective as to appear to not have happened. Althouogh this affects crusader as well, lets take a look at the scouts, currently with the exception of the bards, scouts have T1 Dps and T1 PvP utility -- this needs to change. Lets take a look at some of the PvP utility they have --</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(5)</span> Stealth</p><p>Track</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(6)</span> Poisons that snare, stun, drain mana, etc</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(7) </span>Evac</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(8) </span>CA with no casting times with amazing range</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(9)</span> Ridiculous Auto-attack damage</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(10)</span> Longest range (rangers)</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(11)</span>Roots, Snare, Stun, Interrupts (which dont appear to have an immunity timer)</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(12)</span>Ability to stealth in combat while moving</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(13)</span>Run speed which in some instances is better than Bards or most other classes</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(14)</span>Chain armor -- 2nd best in the game</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(15)</span>These are just off of the top of my head, I am sure there are more. In addition, to all of this, they get T1 dps. This is why it seems that every other character on the server is a scout of some type. It is also why of all oof the least played classes on the server, 4 of them are mages. If you are intent on having PvP that means something and is a challenge for all, please please please do a PvP rebalancing prior to releasing this update. In my opinion, scouts should be moved to T3 dps AT the best for PvP. Other than the crusaders, no other group has this combination of utility and dps.</p></blockquote><p>There are so many things wrong with this post its not even funny.(1) I would say that making the gear easily available is a good thing. If you want to raid for gear, go ahead. The option is there and it gives some VERY nice gear, better by far than the PvP armor. Alot of other people though, don't have time, or don't want to be forced to raid for gear so that they have some small chance of competing with those that do. The amount of gear from raid mobs which procs wards and/or power is insane. A certain belt for healers from a raid mob is enough all by itself to maintain a group's power in PvP. Transposition (dispersion/displacement) isnt even available for those who don't raid. What on earth does a mage need stoneskin procs for in a raid? On the other hand, those stoneskins would be VERY useful in PvP... yet they are found on raid mobs, and not on PvP merchants.</p><p>(2) Thats your opinion, and you're entitled to it no matter how wrong I think it is. I've already covered in (1) how OP I think raid gear is. The PvP gear isn't even close to the level of the x4 raid armor (lets not even get into the Avatar gear), and yet here you are, asking for it to be nerfed? Are you still raiding T7 or what?(3) This paragraph has nothing to do with the discussion. /ignored.</p><p>(4) So this is another scout QQ post then? Thats so last year.</p><p>(5) Available to everyone via totems.(6) Also available to everyone via procs on gear.(7) Again, everyone has access to this via lockets, LoN items, and there are several classes of all Arch-types that get it as a spell.(8) All CAs (with 1 or 2 exceptions) have atleast a 0.5 casting time. Mages get quick-casting spells also. But Sniper Shot has a 5.0s base cast time, alot of self-buffs take 2-3s to cast also.(9) Fighters get this also. Mages keep up in damage just fine, they just don't use auto-attack to do it.(10) Actually that would be Wizards. Once the change to Rays of Disintegration goes through, it will be the longest range CA/Spell in the game, and they already have range increasing gear/AAs.(11) Hyperbole. All of those effects are available on other classes or through gear procs. They also all give immunities. There are only a few procs I can think of that don't give immunity, and they are all on gear that is available to all.(12) OK, I'll give you this one, but so what? Totems>stealth anyways, and you don't have to be stealthed to cast a spell, all scouts have atleast 1 that does, and other than the bards the other scouts have several that require stealth AND positioning. You don't have to be invis, standing within 5m behind someone to cast Ice Bolt.(13) If you want runspeed, you actually want a fury, not a scout. Heck, most of the people I know who have mounts are running 80%+ with them. This is a non-issue.(14) Mitigation is nice, but really not that huge anymore. It's all about the critigation and avoidance now. Nothing beats a warlock for those. Nullmail is huge, especially when you cast manashield just after it triggers. Oh, and leather healers usually have a higher mitigation value than chain scouts.(15) You seem to be forgetting that everything the scouts get is available to anyone else through gear or inate spells. You're also forgetting that enchanters have the best utility and are pretty much on the top wrung of the DPS ladder also.</p><p>This entire post has been one great big /fail-post designed to use hyperbole and flat out misinformation to get scouts nerfed. I don't even know why you put it in this thread. Go make another one where it would be more appropriate. And judging by your comments on the PvP armor, you're either a PvE player, or an exile. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Anonymous posters should be ignored.</span></p>

[SumOldMan]

<p><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SumOldMan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think that these types of changes are very dangerous especially with other alternatives close to release. I hope that SOE will take another look at this before it actually gets released. As far as the PvP gear goes, it is just turning into a case of the rich getting richer.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(1)</span> I would say as a general rule, its not a good idea to make gear available to solo players that is the equivalent of what takes a full raid to get off of raid bosses over the course of several months. The behavior that this change is going to reinforce is playing whatever the Overpowered classes are at that time (currently the PvP dev agreed that this list is non bard scouts and crusaders) or running around in full groups looking to kill solo questers. Is that PvP? Not in my opinion, people come to PvP servers for many reasons, and its not always to inflate a woefully low self esteem in an online game.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(2)</span> A couple things need to happen here, in my opinion. First, the gear needs to be scaled back so that it (at the best) is the rough equivalent of Kunark or t2 shard gear. A solo overpowered character or a gank group should not be able to obtain the best gear that raiders spend months in acquiring.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(3)</span>Next, the other factor that overwhelms PvP on our server, is class imbalance. When this game was first released, classed we not very balanced for PvE. There was a lot of work done and then around LU 13 or so (i think) the rebalancing started to happen. It was actually a great idea, balance the dps for a class around the utility each class provides. This was great for a while, but eventually the scouts got a HUGE dps increase because they argued that most of their utility was not great for PvE, and why would anywone take a scout over a mage?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(4)</span>This was all well and good, but when the PvP servers opened, there either was not a PvP rebalancing or it was so ineffective as to appear to not have happened. Althouogh this affects crusader as well, lets take a look at the scouts, currently with the exception of the bards, scouts have T1 Dps and T1 PvP utility -- this needs to change. Lets take a look at some of the PvP utility they have --</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(5)</span> Stealth</p><p>Track</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(6)</span> Poisons that snare, stun, drain mana, etc</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(7) </span>Evac</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> </span>CA with no casting times with amazing range</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(9)</span> Ridiculous Auto-attack damage</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(10)</span> Longest range (rangers)</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(11)</span>Roots, Snare, Stun, Interrupts (which dont appear to have an immunity timer)</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(12)</span>Ability to stealth in combat while moving</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(13)</span>Run speed which in some instances is better than Bards or most other classes</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(14)</span>Chain armor -- 2nd best in the game</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(15)</span>These are just off of the top of my head, I am sure there are more. In addition, to all of this, they get T1 dps. This is why it seems that every other character on the server is a scout of some type. It is also why of all oof the least played classes on the server, 4 of them are mages. If you are intent on having PvP that means something and is a challenge for all, please please please do a PvP rebalancing prior to releasing this update. In my opinion, scouts should be moved to T3 dps AT the best for PvP. Other than the crusaders, no other group has this combination of utility and dps.</p></blockquote><p>There are so many things wrong with this post its not even funny.(1) I would say that making the gear easily available is a good thing. If you want to raid for gear, go ahead. The option is there and it gives some VERY nice gear, better by far than the PvP armor. Alot of other people though, don't have time, or don't want to be forced to raid for gear so that they have some small chance of competing with those that do. The amount of gear from raid mobs which procs wards and/or power is insane. A certain belt for healers from a raid mob is enough all by itself to maintain a group's power in PvP. Transposition (dispersion/displacement) isnt even available for those who don't raid. What on earth does a mage need stoneskin procs for in a raid? On the other hand, those stoneskins would be VERY useful in PvP... yet they are found on raid mobs, and not on PvP merchants.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Avatar gear aside, the current sets on test are on a par with TSO raid gear, when it should probably be more in line with the previous expansion, or Kunark stuff. Its the old argument once again -- I dont want to invest the time, but I want the best gear on the game handed to me, and this update will accomplish just that. Specialized procs is not a big enough difference, in my opinion.</span></p><p>(2) Thats your opinion, and you're entitled to it no matter how wrong I think it is. I've already covered in (1) how OP I think raid gear is. The PvP gear isn't even close to the level of the x4 raid armor (lets not even get into the Avatar gear), and yet here you are, asking for it to be nerfed? Are you still raiding T7 or what?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Again, some specialized procs aside, it is comparable to a lot of the TSO x4 gear. Actually we just started raiding TSO in the last month or so, and yet i believe we are 4th in Progression on the Q side. I dont have any of this gear incredible gear you are talking about -- infact there has been a push for the existing PVP because some of it is already better than what we have -- Personally I have a mix of t2/t3 shard gear, its not horrible, but i still needed an x2 to get the t3 patterns, not solo or in a gank group.</span>(3) This paragraph has nothing to do with the discussion. /ignored.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>It absolutely does, it gives background about how archetype/subclass is determined. In this case, the problem is that the class balance is based on not PVE utility and not PVP utility</span>.</span></p><p>(4) So this is another scout QQ post then? Thats so last year.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No, its an honest attempt to make PvP enjoyable for everyone, not just a few overpowered classes, which the PVP dev has stated that he agrees with --</span></p><p>(5) Available to everyone via totems.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Not everyone -- there are level limits, they aren't usable in combat and its at a cost. </span></p><p>(6) Also available to everyone via procs on gear.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Not with hundreds of procs per cheap poison that go off on every fight, [Removed for Content] near every attack with no recast timers. Youre missing the point I think, all of these things are things that are innate to most scouts, whereas youre asking other subclasses to be completely geared out to compete.</span></p><p>(7) Again, everyone has access to this via lockets, LoN items, and there are several classes of all Arch-types that get it as a spell.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">See item 6 ---</span></p><p>(<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> All CAs (with 1 or 2 exceptions) have atleast a 0.5 casting time. Mages get quick-casting spells also. But Sniper Shot has a 5.0s base cast time, alot of self-buffs take 2-3s to cast also.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Which means they can be executed on the run and virtually impossible to interrupt. Buffs aside, because that applies to everyone, you can come up with one attack that has a significant cast time.</span></p><p>(9) Fighters get this also. Mages keep up in damage just fine, they just don't use auto-attack to do it.</p><p>(10) Actually that would be Wizards. Once the change to Rays of Disintegration goes through, it will be the longest range CA/Spell in the game, and they already have range increasing gear/AAs.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Well, thats one example that is not even in game yet. Again to the best of my knowledge and experience, Rangers have the have enough range that most of the time even when I can find them before i die, they are out of my cast range.</span></p><p>(11) Hyperbole. All of those effects are available on other classes or through gear procs. They also all give immunities. There are only a few procs I can think of that don't give immunity, and they are all on gear that is available to all.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Again see item #6. I was talking about interrupts when I said no immunity -- I was afk killed by a swashy and saw no few than 4 interrupts. I have no idea why it took him so long, I guess he must have been significantly lower.</span></p><p>(12) OK, I'll give you this one, but so what? Totems>stealth anyways, and you don't have to be stealthed to cast a spell, all scouts have atleast 1 that does, and other than the bards the other scouts have several that require stealth AND positioning. You don't have to be invis, standing within 5m behind someone to cast Ice Bolt.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Totems dont = seeing someone coming -- and even when i see you coming, in many cases you can still get your stealth attacks off prior to me being able to cast on you. In this case though, we are talking about the ability to get away when things go wrong. In combat stealth + increased runspeed = virtually no risk.</span></p><p>(13) If you want runspeed, you actually want a fury, not a scout. Heck, most of the people I know who have mounts are running 80%+ with them. This is a non-issue.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">80+ is not faster than the 100 that Rangers get with cloaks or the 95-100 that bards get -- The only non issue here is Furies.</span></p><p>(14) Mitigation is nice, but really not that huge anymore. It's all about the critigation and avoidance now. Nothing beats a warlock for those. Nullmail is huge, especially when you cast manashield just after it triggers. Oh, and leather healers usually have a higher mitigation value than chain scouts.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I will GLADLY trade you the 50+ mitigation scouts get for the 30 a clothy gets. As far as the leather healers go, thats not what we are talking about, but in my experience its very close to the same with buffs and spending a sizeable number of AA's.</span></p><p>(15) You seem to be forgetting that everything the scouts get is available to anyone else through gear or inate spells. You're also forgetting that enchanters have the best utility and are pretty much on the top wrung of the DPS ladder also.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Enchanters have the best utility? That one statement shows that youve been on the crack pipe for a long time. Utility includes all sorts of things -- Tankability, Healing, Group buffs -- with all that in mind its not even close to the list that non bard scouts get. The point is that the utility/DPS balance needs to be made while wearing roughly equivalent gear, not the gear you can get maybe if you join Onyx.</span></p><p>This entire post has been one great big /fail-post designed to use hyperbole and flat out misinformation to get scouts nerfed. I don't even know why you put it in this thread. Go make another one where it would be more appropriate. And judging by your comments on the PvP armor, you're either a PvE player, or an exile. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Anonymous posters should be ignored.</span></p><p>Whatever, your reply is just the typical scout, "I enjoy being overpowered and please don't do anything to upset my easy-mode world". Actually, at one time I was guilded with you in Pandemonium, back when it was the best guild on Venekor, but have moved most my toons over to Nagafen now.</p><p>Maybe instead of being so concerned about keeping scouts overpowered you should consider whats best for the game. I would love to see more defilers, summoners, enchanters, guardians, etc. Thats not going to happen though because people know how easy it is with scouts and crusaders.</p></blockquote>

[Cyst]

<p>Sumoldman</p><p>Give me a break down on how a Ranger gets 100% speed please. I'm sitting at 80%, and dying to know.</p>

[Borias]

<p>As far as the cost of pvp items, I think that starting off a new tier/expansion the 100/150 writs for armor is fine, <strong><em>if it's on par/a bit worse than raid, not way way worse.</em></strong> </p><p>Then perhaps halfway until the next expansion, drop the cost some, to reflect on how more and more pve gear is coming in, so people with even casual playtimes that pvp a lot can obtain all the buyable gear they want within a couple months of the next expansion, so they can play with it.</p><p>Particularly when pve starts to go smart loot, and you can gear up inside a week, all 7 slots.</p>

[Paikis]

<p><cite>SumOldMan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;">Enchanters have the best utility? That one statement shows that youve been on the crack pipe for a long time. Utility includes all sorts of things -- Tankability, Healing, Group buffs -- with all that in mind its not even close to the list that non bard scouts get. The point is that the utility/DPS balance needs to be made while wearing roughly equivalent gear, not the gear you can get maybe if you join Onyx</span></blockquote><p>This one statement shows that you have no idea. I'm not going to bother going threough the list of other things you typed. You have no idea. Your opinion is invalid. [Removed for Content]</p>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Borias@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As far as the cost of pvp items, I think that starting off a new tier/expansion the 100/150 writs for armor is fine, <strong><em>if it's on par/a bit worse than raid, not way way worse.</em></strong> </p><p>Then perhaps halfway until the next expansion, drop the cost some, to reflect on how more and more pve gear is coming in, so people with even casual playtimes that pvp a lot can obtain all the buyable gear they want within a couple months of the next expansion, so they can play with it.</p><p>Particularly when pve starts to go smart loot, and you can gear up inside a week, all 7 slots.</p></blockquote><p>Good points.</p><p>I'd also like to see a progress in the order you get pvp gear pieces (= not the chest first), to be more on par with the pve progression.</p><p>For instance you'd have to buy gloves and boots and forearms to unlock shoulders and helm and pants, and you'd need all 6 pieces to unlock chest.</p><p>Or have progressive costs like we had in EOF, where the chest was significantly more expensive than boots/gloves for example.</p><p>Or pvp gear cut in tiers, where you'd need the piece from previous tier in order to purchase the upgrade.</p>

[SumOldMan]

<p><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SumOldMan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;">Enchanters have the best utility? That one statement shows that youve been on the crack pipe for a long time. Utility includes all sorts of things -- Tankability, Healing, Group buffs -- with all that in mind its not even close to the list that non bard scouts get. The point is that the utility/DPS balance needs to be made while wearing roughly equivalent gear, not the gear you can get maybe if you join Onyx</span></blockquote><p>This one statement shows that you have no idea. I'm not going to bother going threough the list of other things you typed. You have no idea. Your opinion is invalid. [Removed for Content]</p></blockquote><p>Thank you for that -- just proves my point, when asked to validate your comments, you refuse to do so. Depending on the type of enchanter, theres a couple of group buffs and a some dps/haste buffs. Nothing really different between PvE and PvP.</p><p>You referring to Mez? Shrug, its often resisted and it breaks upon any damage. Though I do hear a lot of scouts crying about it, so maybe thats your point. Hard to know when you're not mature enough to carry on an adult conversation.</p>

[SumOldMan]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sumoldman</p><p>Give me a break down on how a Ranger gets 100% speed please. I'm sitting at 80%, and dying to know.</p></blockquote><p>Hmmm, Since I refuse to play non-bard scouts I am not sure, but there was one from Purity claming to have 100%, i think it involved using the recruit a friend cloak and the normal Ranger AA's/Buffs.</p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>SumOldMan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sumoldman</p><p>Give me a break down on how a Ranger gets 100% speed please. I'm sitting at 80%, and dying to know.</p></blockquote><p>Hmmm, Since I refuse to play non-bard scouts I am not sure, but there was one from Purity claming to have 100%, i think it involved using the recruit a friend cloak and the normal Ranger AA's/Buffs.</p></blockquote><p>The friend cloak would put me to 90%, I think. Is it 15%, or 20% speed?</p><p>I still wouldn't have 100%, and every other class can also use that cloak, which would put them pretty close to Rangers, if not the same.</p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Borias@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As far as the cost of pvp items, I think that starting off a new tier/expansion the 100/150 writs for armor is fine, <strong><em>if it's on par/a bit worse than raid, not way way worse.</em></strong> </p><p>Then perhaps halfway until the next expansion, drop the cost some, to reflect on how more and more pve gear is coming in, so people with even casual playtimes that pvp a lot can obtain all the buyable gear they want within a couple months of the next expansion, so they can play with it.</p><p>Particularly when pve starts to go smart loot, and you can gear up inside a week, all 7 slots.</p></blockquote><p>Good points.</p><p>I'd also like to see a progress in the order you get pvp gear pieces (= not the chest first), to be more on par with the pve progression.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: medium;"><strong>For instance you'd have to buy gloves and boots and forearms to unlock shoulders and helm and pants, and you'd need all 6 pieces to unlock chest.</strong></span></p><p>Or have progressive costs like we had in EOF, where the chest was significantly more expensive than boots/gloves for example.</p><p>Or pvp gear cut in tiers, where you'd need the piece from previous tier in order to purchase the upgrade.</p></blockquote><p>That is a very good idea for the next expansion (tier).</p><p>The problem with gear right now though is that the "helm" will never be worn by a chain/plate healer, or mage. The Shard of Hate helms are nearly impossible to replace. I wonder if scouts will even take off the helm they can get in Shard of Hate.</p>

[Borias]

<p>It could be as simple as to unlock pants you need 2 other pieces bought, and for bp you need at least 3 bought, maybe 4.  Something like that perhaps.  I think having to buy the legs and bp completely last isn't quite right, maybe you have better in another slot and you'd be 'wasting' 100 tokens just to unlock?</p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Borias@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It could be as simple as to unlock pants you need 2 other pieces bought, and for bp you need at least 3 bought, maybe 4.  Something like that perhaps.  I think having to buy the legs and bp completely last isn't quite right, maybe you have better in another slot and you'd be 'wasting' 100 tokens just to unlock?</p></blockquote><p>Even better, and I had the same concerns.</p>

[Azol]

I have already proposed similar idea in PVP Discussion forum, but that thread had been long forgotten. To allow purchasing the "lower" tiers PVP gear with less tokens and upgrading it to the next tier with more tokens - similar to T1/2 TSO shard gear. You start with getting some basic PVP items then you slowly upgrade them one by one as you begin to get more PVP tokens to pay for neccessary upgrades with.

[w1sch]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote: Thorny moved to nagafen and had his raid set pieces in Europa pretty quickly</cite></p><p>I'm pretty sure im not a good example that raid loot is easy to get. I raid 4 times a week with 100% attendance since i moved to naggy and i did so before on venekor. I'm not sure but i think Europa is like 2nd or 3rd in Raidprogression on Nagafen and even there far less than the half of the core raiders already have all raidpattern. Because people do like it is easy to get the tso pattern. Imo only a minority of naggy people will have the tso set before next addon. Besides that i had every rok pvp piece i wanted + more when i was on venny.</p><p>To the pvp set i have to say that i could buy a full set + jewelry for a toon should it be true that old tokens will be heirloom after update. And i had spend far less time pvping than raiding the last months.</p><p>Finally i see it like other people, there must be risk vs reward and you should have an objective you can't fulfill for a long time. I don't want my raid gear given to me without having to work for. And same for PVP gear. Im totally ok with pvp gear that rivals raid gear and is better than pve gear for pvping BUT you need to work hard for it. As long as you can get your pvp gear by zerging kp docks it absolute SHOULD NOT be made better than it is now. And im totally sure even if everyone is handed out their pvp gear without any effort at all, the dock zerging won't stop.</p><p>I thought 5 min about it and here's how i would do it.</p><p>Make the "good" pattern really hard to get. Make the notsogood pattern easier to get.</p><p>Since most ppl already have their pvp stuff they want you cant change that retroactively. So i would make 2 versions of every piece. basic is the version we have now on live server. Put an NPC in the game that give quests for upgrading the pieces.  Make easy quests for boots forearms helmet and all the non OP jewelry. Make it that you cannot finish your quest by kp docks zerging. For example for the boots update kill 50 qs in fens and 30 in JW.</p><p>Make BP and Legs update + OP jewelry Really hard to get: For example Breastplate. Kill 100 enemies in their own cities. So as a freep youd have to do city kills in an enemy city where you cannot zerg. Plus it would lead to grouping cause people want to have their stuff done.</p><p>For the legs make it: Kill 100 enemies that attack your home city: So youd only get update if you make city kills in a city of your own faction .  This would lead to to the fact that their would be incentives to do city pvp + the possibility to do it because every faction has to defend their city or attack enemy city.</p><p>This would make it very hard to get the good pvp stuff and would prevent that its accessible by docks zerging. Not everyone would have their really good  but their would be alot of high quality pvp. And imo a lot of people would have a BLAST by getting their pvp gear.</p><p>I just hate the gimme gimme but i dont want to work for it mentality</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Thorny@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As long as you can get your pvp gear by zerging kp docks it absolute SHOULD NOT be made better than it is now. And im totally sure even if everyone is handed out their pvp gear without any effort at all, <span style="color: #ff00ff;">the dock zerging won't stop.</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Lavazerg will never stop, now that PvP has tasted blood - moving the updates around will only make zergs relocate as too many players find it <em>fun</em> to get updates in wild scrums of massive death.  If something is fun, it will be repeated over and over.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated into the Zerg.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This also reminds me of (Winding Cog) Churchill's famous speech in West Freeport:</span></p><p><em>"...We shall go on to the end, we shall zerg in Lavastorm, we shall zerg on the seas and oceans, we shall zerg with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our home city, whatever the cost may be,<strong> we shall zerg on the beaches of Kylong Plains</strong>, we shall zerg on the landing grounds, we shall zerg in the fields and in the streets, we shall zerg in the hills; we shall never plug-pull nor speed-hack, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this City or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the Freeport Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in Rallos's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old..."</em></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></p>

[w1sch]

<p>Im totally aware that the zerg won't stop i just have the opinion you shouldnt get the upgraded pvp pieces by just standing on the docks and zerging. You should earn it. Thats why i had the idea with the city kills, since you cannot zerg when you attack because youll spawn far away, and the other faction wont attack you as long as you have far more people.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>This is still the wrong section.</p><p>They even made you a section it should be easy to find since it shares the same first word that this thread has.</p>

[Borias]

<p><cite>Thorny@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Make the "good" pattern really hard to get. Make the notsogood pattern easier to get.</p><p>Since most ppl already have their pvp stuff they want you cant change that retroactively. So i would make 2 versions of every piece. basic is the version we have now on live server. Put an NPC in the game that give quests for upgrading the pieces.  Make easy quests for boots forearms helmet and all the non OP jewelry. Make it that you cannot finish your quest by kp docks zerging. For example for the boots update kill 50 qs in fens and 30 in JW.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That would be ok, kind of.</span></p><p>Make BP and Legs update + OP jewelry Really hard to get: For example Breastplate. Kill 100 enemies in their own cities. So as a freep youd have to do city kills in an enemy city where you cannot zerg. Plus it would lead to grouping cause people want to have their stuff done.</p><p>For the legs make it: Kill 100 enemies that attack your home city: So youd only get update if you make city kills in a city of your own faction .  This would lead to to the fact that their would be incentives to do city pvp + the possibility to do it because every faction has to defend their city or attack enemy city.</p><p>This would make it very hard to get the good pvp stuff and would prevent that its accessible by docks zerging. Not everyone would have their really good  but their would be alot of high quality pvp. And imo a lot of people would have a BLAST by getting their pvp gear.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Absolulety NO.  The amount of city pvp these days is like 3 a week.  You should not be reliant on other people attacking you first in an area that you can't even go after things yourself first.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Why would you even attack those guys waiting for carnage flagged folks in cities unless you wanted your legs?  All you would be doing is giving them a chance for gear, when you can completely block them by just hanging out, not bothering with them, etc.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Have you experienced large scale city pvp?  I have.  While having snipers on roofs, people in houses etc sounds fun, it really isn't.  Here's what happens:  6 guys walk into the other city.  They keep their buffs up and huddle close.  The home team waits for around and x3 to show up before they engage.  That's city pvp.</span></p></blockquote>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is still the wrong section. </p><p>They even made you a section it should be easy to find since it shares the same first word that this thread has.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"In Testing Feedback" is the appropriate forum section, as we are discussing and weighing implications of proposed changes to PvP currently in Testing stages.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you have nothing constructive to contribute, please allow PvP players the basic courtesy to continue Test discussions without your attempts to derail.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">As for gear costs concerns: T8 costs being lowered to 30 writs worth likely isn't going to be game-breaking at this stage of the expansion, where T8 starts winding down as we approach T9 - high gear costs initially encouraged Lavazerg, so what will lowered gear costs encourage, aside from viable alts?</span></p>

[ThomasCH]

<p>Cant we just be happy with what we got?</p><p>Aye, some stuff are OP and some things may be easier to obtain than before.</p><p>However, changes was needed. Let it rest in peace and be happy.</p>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated into the Zerg.</span></p></blockquote><p>Actually not. Personnally I just barely pvp anymore as the docks zerg bores me and other zones are pretty much empty. So when I get equally bored of raiding the only option left will be /quit I guess.</p>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Thorny@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To the pvp set i have to say that i could buy a full set + jewelry for a toon should it be true that old tokens will be heirloom after update. And i had spend far less time pvping than raiding the last months.</p><p>Finally i see it like other people, there must be risk vs reward and you should have an objective you can't fulfill for a long time. I don't want my raid gear given to me without having to work for. And same for PVP gear. Im totally ok with pvp gear that rivals raid gear and is better than pve gear for pvping BUT you need to work hard for it. As long as you can get your pvp gear by zerging kp docks it absolute SHOULD NOT be made better than it is now. And im totally sure even if everyone is handed out their pvp gear without any effort at all, the dock zerging won't stop.</p>...<p>I just hate the gimme gimme but i dont want to work for it mentality</p></blockquote><p>QFE.</p><p>As I just wrote I barely pvp anymore and under the new costs I would have enough tokens to dress a brand new alt in full pvp gear. That's just silly.</p>

[SumOldMan]

<p>Its 25%, there are also some LoN items that are like 15 i believe</p><p>As i said though, I dont play rangers, but dont you get more runspeed out of your aa's/spells than most if not all other classes?</p>

[patrck17]

<p>I see a lot of feedback on this thread stating that the pvp gear is too easy to get now and that getting the best gear in the game should take the duration of the expansion.  I think it is worth emphasizing that these changes are to TSO gear a year into the expansion with 5 or so months to go.  This has nothing to do with T9 pvp gear or writs.  So what if the casuals and venekor's can catch up in pvp gear before the expansion, all that gear becomes subpar at 90.  Personally I agree that pvp gear being this cheap at the launch of the xpansion would be a bad thing, but right now with only 5 months left, fine by me.  Maybe there will be some competition available or more people will be willing to 1v1 or 6v6, or more "A" team groups.  The worst that can happen is the zerg doesn't stop, how is that different then now?</p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>SumOldMan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its 25%, there are also some LoN items that are like 15 i believe</p><p>As i said though, I dont play rangers, but dont you get more runspeed out of your aa's/spells than most if not all other classes?</p></blockquote><p>That would put me to 95%, and if I had the racial 5%, I'd have 100%.</p><p>Get more runspeed than most? Every class in the game can get 75%-90% depending on race, AA and mounts. Bards and Furies can both get to 100%, but the kicker is Bards can have a very fast in-combat run speed to boot. Not to mention the Assassin enhance Sprint works in PvP, and they can move very fast in-combat when they want to.</p><p>I don't even know the speed of the WoE mount, and isn't there other raid mounts out there that are pretty fast?</p>

[Barx]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't even know the speed of the WoE mount, and isn't there other raid mounts out there that are pretty fast?</p></blockquote><p>TSO x4 raid mounts are 70%. The abyssal carpet (from the combined 6 collections from C:EA and KT) is 68%, and the shard bears are 65%.</p><p>The downside to mount-based runspeed is that it goes away indoors.</p>

[Borias]

<p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SumOldMan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its 25%, there are also some LoN items that are like 15 i believe</p><p>As i said though, I dont play rangers, but dont you get more runspeed out of your aa's/spells than most if not all other classes?</p></blockquote><p>That would put me to 95%, and if I had the racial 5%, I'd have 100%.</p><p>Get more runspeed than most? Every class in the game can get 75%-90% depending on race, AA and mounts. Bards and Furies can both get to 100%, but the kicker is Bards can have a very fast in-combat run speed to boot. Not to mention the Assassin enhance Sprint works in PvP, and they can move very fast in-combat when they want to.</p><p>I don't even know the speed of the WoE mount, and isn't there other raid mounts out there that are pretty fast?</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure I'd call bard incombat run 'very fast'.  Standard is 9, can be 12 with aa's.  You can add 10 to that if you keep Marrows Song equipped.  Faster than most, but certainly not road runner.</p>

[threat111]

<p>Id like to see the "toxic backlash"  effect looked into.  Not only is it proc'n on more then just the intended noxious attacks its extremely over powered in pvp.  Bane warding has all ready been nerfed from its original form in pvp with lock out timers on the amount of procs that can hit per second.  Id like to see this same type of adjustment on the toxic backlash.</p><p>I remember a 1v1 fight I had with Elwin (paladin) awhile back where we fought for 15 mins.  It was an amazing fight.  Very fun battle that I unfortunatly lost.  Then I look back thru the act to get some information to maybe come out on top the next time and i see that toxic backlash had healed him for 20,000.  I was like [Removed for Content]...  20k...  Really?</p>

[YasikoSetsu]

<p><cite>Borias@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SumOldMan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its 25%, there are also some LoN items that are like 15 i believe</p><p>As i said though, I dont play rangers, but dont you get more runspeed out of your aa's/spells than most if not all other classes?</p></blockquote><p>That would put me to 95%, and if I had the racial 5%, I'd have 100%.</p><p>Get more runspeed than most? Every class in the game can get 75%-90% depending on race, AA and mounts. Bards and Furies can both get to 100%, but the kicker is Bards can have a very fast in-combat run speed to boot. Not to mention the Assassin enhance Sprint works in PvP, and they can move very fast in-combat when they want to.</p><p>I don't even know the speed of the WoE mount, and isn't there other raid mounts out there that are pretty fast?</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure I'd call bard incombat run 'very fast'.  Standard is 9, can be 12 with aa's.  You can add 10 to that if you keep Marrows Song equipped.  Faster than most, but certainly not road runner.</p></blockquote><p>If you read marrows song, it gives a straight up 10% in combat run speed, plus 10% in combat run speed to Selo's. 20% total.</p><p>(This picture is in my PvE spec, so my in combat run speed aa is only at 9%)</p><p>I run 29% in combat, a bit over 30% in my PvP spec. Thats pretty fast, almost sprint speed all the time.</p><p>http://i29.tinypic.com/jjmi2u.jpg<img src="http://i29.tinypic.com/jjmi2u.jpg" width="1280" height="750" /></p>

[Orthureon]

<p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Id like to see the "toxic backlash"  effect looked into.  Not only is it proc'n on more then just the intended noxious attacks its extremely over powered in pvp.  Bane warding has all ready been nerfed from its original form in pvp with lock out timers on the amount of procs that can hit per second.  Id like to see this same type of adjustment on the toxic backlash.</p><p>I remember a 1v1 fight I had with Elwin (paladin) awhile back where we fought for 15 mins.  It was an amazing fight.  Very fun battle that I unfortunatly lost.  Then I look back thru the act to get some information to maybe come out on top the next time and i see that toxic backlash had healed him for 20,000.  I was like [Removed for Content]...  20k...  Really?</p></blockquote><p>Working as intended when fighting against an SK, that does only Noxious damage...</p>

[Bigmik22]

<p>I was also getting Toxic Feedback when fighting Elwin - as a troubador... I got it on many fights in pvp, and my toons are not noxious based.</p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't even know the speed of the WoE mount, and isn't there other raid mounts out there that are pretty fast?</p></blockquote><p>TSO x4 raid mounts are 70%. The abyssal carpet (from the combined 6 collections from C:EA and KT) is 68%, and the shard bears are 65%.</p><p>The downside to mount-based runspeed is that it goes away indoors.</p></blockquote><p>I would be running at 95% on my Templar with the raid mount.</p><p>All PvP happens outdoors though, which is the crutch of the debate here. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Cyst]

<p><cite>Borias@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SumOldMan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its 25%, there are also some LoN items that are like 15 i believe</p><p>As i said though, I dont play rangers, but dont you get more runspeed out of your aa's/spells than most if not all other classes?</p></blockquote><p>That would put me to 95%, and if I had the racial 5%, I'd have 100%.</p><p>Get more runspeed than most? Every class in the game can get 75%-90% depending on race, AA and mounts. Bards and Furies can both get to 100%, but the kicker is Bards can have a very fast in-combat run speed to boot. Not to mention the Assassin enhance Sprint works in PvP, and they can move very fast in-combat when they want to.</p><p>I don't even know the speed of the WoE mount, and isn't there other raid mounts out there that are pretty fast?</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure I'd call bard incombat run 'very fast'.  Standard is 9, can be 12 with aa's.  You can add 10 to that if you keep Marrows Song equipped.  Faster than most, but certainly not road runner.</p></blockquote><p>Check out Yasiko's screenshot, and post.. He is IMPOSSIBLE to catch in PvP if he doesn't want to be caught.</p><p>Unless you have the AAs spent, or have the racial 5% in-combat run speed every other class is at 0% in-combat run speed.</p>