Chronomagic and Missions

[Yimway]

<p>Do you plan to leave the system such that people can use the auto-mentor to level to 50 to get a set of missions and zones locked at level 50, then break mentor and exploit the zone?</p><p>Or will you add a zone-in restriction to mission zones regarding auto-mentoring?</p><p>It seems to me with moving fabled drops to shard purchased, and allowing everyone a means to easily exploit/solo missions your nearly wipping out the driving factor to group for missions.  Is this seriously in your mind the healthiest design decision for the game?</p><p>Just curious, as its a pretty significant shift in how you choose to reward players for completing vs. exploiting content.</p>

[ashen1973]

something really needs to be done to stop the exploiting of grey zones to obtain shards now. I used to be pretty much on the fence with regards to the issue, it seemed fairly harmless and was a way for those that don't get the chance to group up as much as others to stay equally equipped, stopping them from falling too far behind guildmates/friends that could spend more time running instances. The latest changes have pushed me off the fence though, the chronomagic system makes it much, much easier to exploit grey zones and being able to purchase instance loot with shards gives them much more worth. (Before, I was happy to think that the people that use grey instances to obtain shards were losing out on the loot that drops in non-grey runs) When I first heard of the self-mentoring system, I was expecting to see measures taken to stop grey-instance runs implemented at the same time. Currently, I have not heard of any being taken, but, historically SOE have rarely published, in patch notes, details of measures taken to counter exploits and, on most occasions, these fixes are pushed directly to live servers, bypassing test. I'm still hopeing this is the case and grey-runs will be stopped with Gu53 hitting live.

[Purrcey]

<p>Run <strong>150</strong>ish grey zones for <strong>1 </strong>piece of so-so fabled loot...big whoop.</p><p>Run <strong>130</strong>ish grey zones for <strong>1 </strong>set of legendary armor...hardly ground breaking.</p><p>If it was an "exploit" then grey zones would not update shard quests and an "exploit" is quick to be fixed.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>PurrceyPurespirit007 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Run <strong>150</strong>ish grey zones for <strong>1 </strong>piece of so-so fabled loot...big whoop.</p><p>Run <strong>130</strong>ish grey zones for <strong>1 </strong>set of legendary armor...hardly ground breaking.</p><p>If it was an "exploit" then grey zones would not update shard quests and an "exploit" is quick to be fixed.</p></blockquote><p>Keep in mind you can run 6-10 / day very quickly killing greys.  You can in fact then re-use these zones for many missions following.  It takes an hour to get ~10 shards this way.</p><p>Its an exploit they've just chosen not to address cause it was status quo for so long.  However adding more features to both make performing the exploit easier and adding new rewards for doing so hardly seems like a good game design decision in my book.</p><p>Granted, I'm not an SoE Designer, but well, just seems a bit of a wonky decision.</p><p>Make it so if you break mentor in these zones you get booted out and half to re-mentor to go back in, think that solves the case relatively easily.  Its a minor annoyance for people genuinely mentoring the zones if thier target goes LD, but there is no lockout timer, so as I said its a minor annoyance for a rare case.</p>

[Alienor]

People are already doing this, no matter of auto-mentoring or not. Please, get over it, this topic is already 9 months old.

[Barx]

<p><cite>PurrceyPurespirit007 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Run <strong>150</strong>ish grey zones for <strong>1 </strong>piece of so-so fabled loot...big whoop.</p><p>Run <strong>130</strong>ish grey zones for <strong>1 </strong>set of legendary armor...hardly ground breaking.</p><p>If it was an "exploit" then grey zones would not update shard quests and an "exploit" is quick to be fixed.</p></blockquote><p>It is an exploit. The Devs have openly stated that it was, but since people get this false sense of entitlement they stated they would not fix it in TSO (but it would NOT be allowed in the new tokens for SF).</p><p>Before, the best you could get with the shards was T2 armor and a mount, and maybe some relatively junky infused jewelry.</p><p>But then again, I'm of the believe that they A) should have fixed it instead of letting folks continue to exploit it and B) should never put this fabled-item merchant on Live.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But then again, I'm of the believe that they A) should have fixed it instead of letting folks continue to exploit it and B) should never put this fabled-item merchant on Live.</p></blockquote><p>Bingo!</p><p>I actually favor the fabled item merchant on live.  I think the prices need to reflect the rareity of the item, and even the ultra rare items like Najena's ring should be there.  I'd price the ring at 400 shards, reflecting the relative chance of looting it on a run.</p><p>However, I think you have to close the barn door on the exploit if your going to give away fabled gear on it.  T2 shard gear, I didn't particularly like seeing happen, but its pretty transitory gear so I didn't get too worked up by it.  Fabled jewelery on the other hand is a horse of a different color.</p><p>I can't see how they feel its worth the time to make the merchant and place these items out there but not worth the time to close the door on the exploit.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>I agree and its not the fact that people are already doing it. Its the fact that SOE is making it easier for people to exploit and then giving them better rewards for doing so.</p><p>Just kick the person who unmentors in zone or prevent the person from completing the lvl 80 quest in a mentored zone.People should not be getting rewarded for this. There are people doing high level instances taking 30min- 60min per heroic run and then there are people exploiting this and doing 8-10 heroic instances greyed out with no consequences.</p>

[Xethren]

<p>While I agree that the Fabled Merchant is a really stupid idea- and that there should be another requirement: like special drops from named or something that you can ONLY get fighting the boss at level in order to buy the items- you also have to consider that in half a years time these drops are going to become obsolete with the new tier and also get weaker as you out-level them.</p><p>So unless people want to spend 150 shard a pop for each item (which I sure as heck dont want to even grey shard that much) and/or stay level locked at 80, it's probably going to end up as not being either much of an issue or the merchant wont have too many customers.</p><p>Here's hoping that next expansion will not feature an 'exploit' path to gearing up. Or a /easymode merchant. Drops should be hunted for and earned, not bought.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Xethren@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>While I agree that the Fabled Merchant is a really stupid idea- and that there should be another requirement: like special drops from named or something that you can ONLY get fighting the boss at level in order to buy the items- you also have to consider that in half a years time these drops are going to become obsolete with the new tier and also get weaker as you out-level them.</p><p>So unless people want to spend 150 shard a pop for each item (which I sure as heck dont want to even grey shard that much) and/or stay level locked at 80, it's probably going to end up as not being either much of an issue or the merchant wont have too many customers.</p><p>Here's hoping that next expansion will not feature an 'exploit' path to gearing up. Or a /easymode merchant. Drops should be hunted for and earned, not bought.</p></blockquote><p>Random drops is the antithesis of earning a reward. Buying a reward via some system of tokens - be it shards, plat or something else - is earning that reward based on the means the game has established for doing such things. Why the disdain for commerce in MMOs - too often, I see people placing earning and buying things at opposite ends of the spectrum.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>The merchant just places a cap to how much the RNG can kick you in the nards.</p><p>I'm all for the merchant existing and providing the reward once you've made a sufficient number of attempts.  It's just a check-valve for the RNG at that point.</p><p>You simply need to make sure the shard system enforced doing the content at a valid con.</p>

[Lleren]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But then again, I'm of the believe that they A) should have fixed it instead of letting folks continue to exploit it and B) should never put this fabled-item merchant on Live.</p></blockquote><p>Bingo!</p><p>I actually favor the fabled item merchant on live.  I think the prices need to reflect the rareity of the item, and even the ultra rare items like Najena's ring should be there.  I'd price the ring at 400 shards, reflecting the relative chance of looting it on a run.</p><p>However, I think you have to close the barn door on the exploit if your going to give away fabled gear on it.  T2 shard gear, I didn't particularly like seeing happen, but its pretty transitory gear so I didn't get too worked up by it.  Fabled jewelery on the other hand is a horse of a different color.</p><p>I can't see how they feel its worth the time to make the merchant and place these items out there but not worth the time to close the door on the exploit.</p></blockquote><p>I'd really prefer if they introduced some other coinage from the herioc zones that only was avaiable from max level herioc zones to buy these fabled items.  As it is I expect to see a lot of grey shard running. </p>

[Barx]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The merchant just places a cap to how much the RNG can kick you in the nards.</p><p>I'm all for the merchant existing and providing the reward once you've made a sufficient number of attempts.  It's just a check-valve for the RNG at that point.</p><p>You simply need to make sure the shard system enforced doing the content at a valid con.</p></blockquote><p>That would work. Some kind of flag (either hidden or visible) for each time you clear an instance that would open up tiers of loot on that merchant.</p><p>Clear it 10 times, get access to some of the shoddier fabled stuff and the legendary stuff. 50 shards each.</p><p>Clear it 50 times, get access to the medium-good stuff to buy. 100 shards each.</p><p>Clear it 100 times, it says "We know the RNG clearly doesn't love you" and opens up the really nice stuff (your Preparation ring, etc.). 250 shards each.</p>

[Deveryn]

<p>People shouldn't be able to get caught up on gear, when they hit 80. yet everyone wants people in that exact gear if they're to get a group. Pick one. It's not like it's the absolute best gear out there and people still have to work very hard to improve upon it. I think it was rather smart of them to have this method. Playing catch up really sucks, especially when you bring alts into it. It still takes weeks for people to get into Tier 2 gear (months if their free time is very limited. In the end, you get to keep more people around, which makes everyone happy.</p>

[bryldan]

<p><cite>Deveryn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>People shouldn't be able to get caught up on gear, when they hit 80. yet everyone wants people in that exact gear if they're to get a group. Pick one. It's not like it's the absolute best gear out there and people still have to work very hard to improve upon it. I think it was rather smart of them to have this method. Playing catch up really sucks, especially when you bring alts into it. It still takes weeks for people to get into Tier 2 gear (months if their free time is very limited. In the end, you get to keep more people around, which makes everyone happy.</p></blockquote><p>I do not think its the fact that they do not want ppl in these items its the fact that they want them to earn in the RIGHT way instead of CHEATING their way to these items.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>bryldan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Deveryn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>People shouldn't be able to get caught up on gear, when they hit 80. yet everyone wants people in that exact gear if they're to get a group. Pick one. It's not like it's the absolute best gear out there and people still have to work very hard to improve upon it. I think it was rather smart of them to have this method. Playing catch up really sucks, especially when you bring alts into it. It still takes weeks for people to get into Tier 2 gear (months if their free time is very limited. In the end, you get to keep more people around, which makes everyone happy.</p></blockquote><p>I do not think its the fact that they do not want ppl in these items its the fact that they want them to earn in the RIGHT way instead of CHEATING their way to these items.</p></blockquote><p>If you are referring to grey shards, they are de facto legitimate gameplay. SOE has elected to not do anything about them, so while SOE may not like that people are doing them, they cannot be considered cheating.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are referring to grey shards, they are de facto legitimate gameplay. SOE has elected to not do anything about them, so while SOE may not like that people are doing them, they cannot be considered cheating.</p></blockquote><p>I remember reading that post as well, and I can back this statement up.</p>

[Geothe]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are referring to grey shards, they are de facto legitimate gameplay. SOE has elected to not do anything about them, so while SOE may not like that people are doing them, they cannot be considered cheating.</p></blockquote><p>I remember reading that post as well, and I can back this statement up.</p></blockquote><p>While also digging in on the boards enough you'll find a Dev post stating that grey shards were exploits as well.Moral of the story:  SoE will change its mind whenever they want to. lol</p>

[Gungo]

<p>I remeber reading all those statements and the moral of the story is they shouldnt encourage a known exploit further by rewarding it further.</p><p>No one is asking for a roll back just fix the problem.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are referring to grey shards, they are de facto legitimate gameplay. SOE has elected to not do anything about them, so while SOE may not like that people are doing them, they cannot be considered cheating.</p></blockquote><p>I remember reading that post as well, and I can back this statement up.</p></blockquote><p>IIRC, that post basically said, we're not going to punish players for what has been in the game so long already.</p><p>I'm fine with that, however adding more reward systems for the same exploit hardly seems sane.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are referring to grey shards, they are de facto legitimate gameplay. SOE has elected to not do anything about them, so while SOE may not like that people are doing them, they cannot be considered cheating.</p></blockquote><p>I remember reading that post as well, and I can back this statement up.</p></blockquote><p>IIRC, that post basically said, we're not going to punish players for what has been in the game so long already.</p><p>I'm fine with that, however adding more reward systems for the same exploit hardly seems sane.</p></blockquote><p>This doesn't reward getting grey shards specifically, but just getting shards in general. Should SoE not add any more shard-purchasable items because some people get grey shards?</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are referring to grey shards, they are de facto legitimate gameplay. SOE has elected to not do anything about them, so while SOE may not like that people are doing them, they cannot be considered cheating.</p></blockquote><p>I remember reading that post as well, and I can back this statement up.</p></blockquote><p>IIRC, that post basically said, we're not going to punish players for what has been in the game so long already.</p><p>I'm fine with that, however adding more reward systems for the same exploit hardly seems sane.</p></blockquote><p>This doesn't reward getting grey shards specifically, but just getting shards in general. Should SoE not add any more shard-purchasable items because some people get grey shards?</p></blockquote><p>Without fixing the problem, I would say yes and that is entirely what this thread is about.</p><p>In fact it can be determined this will encourage grey shard farming.Why?well because people who were grey shard farming before likely got everything they wanted shard wise already.By adding in new items for high shard cost guess what those grey shard farmers would do?Farm more grey shards amd its even easier now that you can self mentor. Guess what people who are indifferent to grey shard farming will do when they see items they want for higher shards then they have?Farm grey shards</p><p>Grey shard farming ruins the intended function of shard gear which is group obtainable items that allow people in GROUPS to WORK towards a goal through instances.</p><p>What does grey shard farming do? allow solo people to exploit heroic rewards with no challenge or consequence.</p>

[Deveryn]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Grey shard farming ruins the intended function of shard gear which is group obtainable items that allow people in GROUPS to WORK towards a goal through instances.</p><p>What does grey shard farming do? allow solo people to exploit heroic rewards with no challenge or consequence.</p></blockquote><p>It ruins it, eh? Last time I checked, there were two more tiers after what a person can get from grey shards. People still needed to know how to play the game to get that stuff. All grey sharding does is get people on an even playing field, because not everyone has the time and energy to go through the traditional method of trial and error with groups that can't always get their stuff together. There are plenty of drawbacks to grey shards, too. You get a lot less money. There's no loot or any kind of real upgrade for people. They still need to head back into those same zones at level for some of the better drops.</p>

[Alienor]

People are also running grey shards in groups... For the solo player, 150 shards is still a lot and I would say it is sort of an achievement (or time investment) to gather that much. It is certainly an amount I never would put into one single item which will be obsolete in less than a half year anyways.

[revren]

<p>Hey Hey</p><p>It is also one of the best ways to get AA and exp. I know a fair amount of people that run them every day not for the shards but becouse it beats solo questing in RoK for 5 lvl's.   Even if they got rid of the shards , and if i ever had an alt i would still do it. But i have no real alts , and i have 250 shards form raiding and grouping , and nothing to spend them on anyway. I still won't even with e Blackmarket NPC.</p><p>- Rev</p>

[Sarriss]

<p>I was once asked to a "grey" shard zone. My responce; why not leave that, we'll swap DF and let your timer expire, then go back there and swat that zone at con. They didn't go in yet, so we skipped the DF and swatted the zone, even got a master noone could use out of it. (what's up with that?) The only people I know who ever do that are people who have issues finding groups nd this one guy who shouts in channel chat about them.</p><p>Personaly, I say; close the exploit, maybe more groups will start if you do. (since people won't be locked to a grey zone)</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Deveryn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Grey shard farming ruins the intended function of shard gear which is group obtainable items that allow people in GROUPS to WORK towards a goal through instances.</p><p>What does grey shard farming do? allow solo people to exploit heroic rewards with no challenge or consequence.</p></blockquote><p>It ruins it, eh? Last time I checked, there were two more tiers after what a person can get from grey shards. People still needed to know how to play the game to get that stuff. All grey sharding does is get people on an even playing field, because not everyone has the time and energy to go through the traditional method of trial and error with groups that can't always get their stuff together. There are plenty of drawbacks to grey shards, too. You get a lot less money. There's no loot or any kind of real upgrade for people. They still need to head back into those same zones at level for some of the better drops.</p></blockquote><p>Thats right. You know people dont have time to raid either. I guess we should put them on a level palying field and allow grey farming of raid zones. Your sense of entitlement is quite astonishing.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>revren wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is also one of the best ways to get AA and exp. I know a fair amount of people that run them every day not for the shards but becouse it beats solo questing in RoK for 5 lvl's.   Even if they got rid of the shards , and if i ever had an alt i would still do it. But i have no real alts , and i have 250 shards form raiding and grouping , and nothing to spend them on anyway. I still won't even with e Blackmarket NPC.</p></blockquote><p>Yeap, I know quite a few new level 80/200 that did nothing 65+ but grey shard missions.</p><p>So 80/200 assasin who's never been in a real group before, of course bought his myth, fully shard geared. </p><p>This exploit *is* the fastrak method to cap currently.  I believe he said he did the 65/50 to 80/200 run in 10 days of nothing but grey sharding.</p><p>As I've advocated before, force a zone out if you break mentor.  If devs go look at the code in the splitpaw arena's they'll find where they've previously detected a mentor break that prevents rewards from the invalidated instance.  The same type of mechanic should be in place for mission zones.</p>

[Morghus]

<p><cite>Deveryn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Grey shard farming ruins the intended function of shard gear which is group obtainable items that allow people in GROUPS to WORK towards a goal through instances.</p><p>What does grey shard farming do? allow solo people to exploit heroic rewards with no challenge or consequence.</p></blockquote><p>It ruins it, eh? Last time I checked, there were two more tiers after what a person can get from grey shards. <strong>People still needed to know how to play the game to get that stuff</strong>. All grey sharding does is get people on an even playing field, because not everyone has the time and energy to go through the traditional method of trial and error with groups that can't always get their stuff together. There are plenty of drawbacks to grey shards, too. You get a lot less money. There's no loot or any kind of real upgrade for people. They still need to head back into those same zones at level for some of the better drops.</p></blockquote><p>Ah, if only that were so. I cringe to think of the countless groups of t2 geared players I have joined who literally cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I'm not talking about the harder zones either, I'm talking Scion and Crucible here. I once actually had to camp over to my <strong>brawler</strong> because the full t2 geared <strong>shadowknight</strong> couldn't tank even the first rooms with two healers.</p><p>That Crucible run was just entirely horrid and I was tempted to put all the people in-group on ignore afterwards. As far as a level playing field goes, I say all it has done is made the potentially bad players indistinguishable from people who legitimately aquired their t2 armor and know how to actually play their class and work as a group.</p>

[Deveryn]

<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Deveryn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Grey shard farming ruins the intended function of shard gear which is group obtainable items that allow people in GROUPS to WORK towards a goal through instances.</p><p>What does grey shard farming do? allow solo people to exploit heroic rewards with no challenge or consequence.</p></blockquote><p>It ruins it, eh? Last time I checked, there were two more tiers after what a person can get from grey shards. <strong>People still needed to know how to play the game to get that stuff</strong>. All grey sharding does is get people on an even playing field, because not everyone has the time and energy to go through the traditional method of trial and error with groups that can't always get their stuff together. There are plenty of drawbacks to grey shards, too. You get a lot less money. There's no loot or any kind of real upgrade for people. They still need to head back into those same zones at level for some of the better drops.</p></blockquote><p>Ah, if only that were so. I cringe to think of the countless groups of t2 geared players I have joined who literally cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I'm not talking about the harder zones either, I'm talking Scion and Crucible here. I once actually had to camp over to my <strong>brawler</strong> because the full t2 geared <strong>shadowknight</strong> couldn't tank even the first rooms with two healers.</p><p>That Crucible run was just entirely horrid and I was tempted to put all the people in-group on ignore afterwards. As far as a level playing field goes, I say all it has done is made the grey-shard runners indistinguishable from people who legitimately aquired their t2 armor and know how to actually work as a group.</p></blockquote><p>You could easily swap out t2 gear for a mythical in that statement about bad players. More often than not, the mythed player in my groups and raids is the one to die first because all the blood has rushed away from their brain and they're like "omg! look at mah DPS!" and they fall in 2 seconds every fight. All it takes is some plat and 23 coordinated players for some shmo to get their myth.</p><p>Running grey zones doesn't mean you suck. I know plenty of good players who have taken the easy road on shards. 2 people stick out in my mind as really awesome players, having made the switch from one class to another and getting an alt caught up to everyone else.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Deveryn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Deveryn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Grey shard farming ruins the intended function of shard gear which is group obtainable items that allow people in GROUPS to WORK towards a goal through instances.</p><p>What does grey shard farming do? allow solo people to exploit heroic rewards with no challenge or consequence.</p></blockquote><p>It ruins it, eh? Last time I checked, there were two more tiers after what a person can get from grey shards. <strong>People still needed to know how to play the game to get that stuff</strong>. All grey sharding does is get people on an even playing field, because not everyone has the time and energy to go through the traditional method of trial and error with groups that can't always get their stuff together. There are plenty of drawbacks to grey shards, too. You get a lot less money. There's no loot or any kind of real upgrade for people. They still need to head back into those same zones at level for some of the better drops.</p></blockquote><p>Ah, if only that were so. I cringe to think of the countless groups of t2 geared players I have joined who literally cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I'm not talking about the harder zones either, I'm talking Scion and Crucible here. I once actually had to camp over to my <strong>brawler</strong> because the full t2 geared <strong>shadowknight</strong> couldn't tank even the first rooms with two healers.</p><p>That Crucible run was just entirely horrid and I was tempted to put all the people in-group on ignore afterwards. As far as a level playing field goes, I say all it has done is made the grey-shard runners indistinguishable from people who legitimately aquired their t2 armor and know how to actually work as a group.</p></blockquote><p>You could easily swap out t2 gear for a mythical in that statement about bad players. More often than not, the mythed player in my groups and raids is the one to die first because all the blood has rushed away from their brain and they're like "omg! look at mah DPS!" and they fall in 2 seconds every fight. All it takes is some plat and 23 coordinated players for some shmo to get their myth.</p><p>Running grey zones doesn't mean you suck. I know plenty of good players who have taken the easy road on shards. 2 people stick out in my mind as really awesome players, having made the switch from one class to another and getting an alt caught up to everyone else.</p></blockquote><p>Tank survivability is largely a function of gear and healers. Tanks do not do a whole lot to manage their own survival except on some very hard fights.</p><p>That said, none of the above really deals with the issue of grey shards, but rather is simply the sort of thing that happens as the game gets older. The simple fact is, for many players, the game begins at 80. This is doubly so for a tank, who will likely not get a chance to do much tanking prior to level 80, and will not get cosnidered for groups unless he has T2 gear. We need to accept that new players, or newly level alts will essentially be learning how to play at level 80.</p>