100,000 Items??

[Cloudrat]

<p>Ok  I have been checking the leaderboards on EQ2 Players and seeing some astronomical amounts of items being made. Gee, big surprise the top 100 are all woodworkers who make arrows in stacks of 100 per combine.  100,000 combines is going to take a non ammo maker years and years to complete in the course of normal gameplay. Yeah, you can do the math and say oh a combine takes x amount of time and 100k will take so long.  Please remember the variables including in being a crafter. harvesting, chatting with adventurers who don't  have a clue what they need made, occasional sleep and potty breaks..... well we are back at years and years..</p><p>There was no way to sort the leaderboards by crafter type to get a sense of what the ones that were not ammo makers were making, but my live main that was the crafter who lived through the making parts to make items era and made most of her money from selling boxes, (she is a tinkerer too) made 35k items in the 3 years she was my main crafter.</p><p>I  don't think a "fun"  achievement should be something that requires 7 out of 9 crafters to stand around making tier one ammo.</p><p>Cloudrat</p>

[Calthine]

<p>I've easily done that many arrow combines over my career.  Half back before they increased the stack! </p><p>IMO they're bragging rights, not "gotta do's".</p><p>Edit:  Found my pre-transfer screenshot - Up to that point I'd made 568, 410 items, and it sure wasn't all arrows!  That was in about 4 years of gameplay.</p>

[Maroger]

<p><cite>Aeryal@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok  I have been checking the leaderboards on EQ2 Players and seeing some astronomical amounts of items being made. Gee, big surprise the top 100 are all woodworkers who make arrows in stacks of 100 per combine.  100,000 combines is going to take a non ammo maker years and years to complete in the course of normal gameplay. Yeah, you can do the math and say oh a combine takes x amount of time and 100k will take so long.  Please remember the variables including in being a crafter. harvesting, chatting with adventurers who don't  have a clue what they need made, occasional sleep and potty breaks..... well we are back at years and years..</p><p>There was no way to sort the leaderboards by crafter type to get a sense of what the ones that were not ammo makers were making, but my live main that was the crafter who lived through the making parts to make items era and made most of her money from selling boxes, (she is a tinkerer too) made 35k items in the 3 years she was my main crafter.</p><p>I  don't think a "fun"  achievement should be something that requires 7 out of 9 crafters to stand around making tier one ammo.</p><p>Cloudrat</p></blockquote><p>You can get some idea by dividing by 100 how many combines.</p><p>I have a woodworker who is level 80 and I can assure you I did not get that level making only arrows. I got it by doing the rush writs. But of course Rothgard does not think a level 80 crafter did 1000 combines so I get no credit at all in this crappy new achievement system which is cheating tradeskillers.</p>

[Eveningsong]

<p><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've easily done that many arrow combines over my career.  Half back before they increased the stack! </p><p>IMO they're bragging rights, not "gotta do's".</p></blockquote><p>That many combines, or made that many arrows... considering that arrows are created in fairly large stacks, its a very different thing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p>

[Calthine]

<p><cite>Eveningsong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've easily done that many arrow combines over my career.  Half back before they increased the stack! </p><p>IMO they're bragging rights, not "gotta do's".</p></blockquote><p>That many combines, or made that many arrows... considering that arrows are created in fairly large stacks, its a very different thing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />.</p></blockquote><p>Probably that many combines; I used to supply a couple of guilds <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And back in the day, arrows only made 25 at Pristine.</p>

[Eveningsong]

<p>Still beats my one chair per combine, heh.  But yeah, I suspect any of us from back in the days of making spikes and sheets, and doing endless writs to get faction and level guilds, not to mention supplying guilds, has probably done many many thousand combines.  On multiple toons even... /sigh.</p>

[Maroger]

<p><cite>Eveningsong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Still beats my one chair per combine, heh.  But yeah, I suspect any of us from back in the days of making spikes and sheets, and doing endless writs to get faction and level guilds, not to mention supplying guilds, has probably done many many thousand combines.  On multiple toons even... /sigh.</p></blockquote><p>And yet we aren't allowed and achievement for 1000 combines - that SUCKS!!!</p>

[Cloudrat]

<p>People  after the 1000, they ask you to make 9000, then they ask for 100,000 .   If you look at the leader board the highest amount of items crafted by (woodworker) a player is 9,071,931.  If you move the decimal point for the 100 in a stack you get   90k.  Blow the cobwebs out<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Xelgad]

<p>Just for clarification, the achievement is requesting combines rather than products crafted so Woodworkers are on the same playing field as everyone else.</p>

[Maroger]

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just for clarification, the achievement is requesting combines rather than products crafted so Woodworkers are on the same playing field as everyone else.</p></blockquote><p>Except we get not credit for past combines which is a rip-off if you have reached level 80. It is just cheating players not to get credit. It is obvious that if you are a level 80 crafter you have done 1000 combines and then some.</p>

[Kiara]

<p><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except we get not credit for past combines which is a rip-off if you have reached level 80. It is just cheating players not to get credit. It is obvious that if you are a level 80 crafter you have done 1000 combines and then some.</p></blockquote><p>And this has been explained.  This puts everyone on an even playing field.</p><p>The purpose was also to NOT give everyone all the possible achievements automagically as soon as they log in.  There's no achievement there.</p><p>You will not get this reversed.  You're also getting quite thoroughly rude about it and I'd really prefer that you shifted back over into the realm of polite feedback rather than ranting flames at my team.</p><p>Thanks.</p>

[Cloudrat]

<p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except we get not credit for past combines which is a rip-off if you have reached level 80. It is just cheating players not to get credit. It is obvious that if you are a level 80 crafter you have done 1000 combines and then some.</p></blockquote><p><strong>And this has been explained.  This puts everyone on an even playing field.</strong></p><p>The purpose was also to NOT give everyone all the possible achievements automagically as soon as they log in.  There's no achievement there.</p><p>You will not get this reversed.  You're also getting quite thoroughly rude about it and I'd really prefer that you shifted back over into the realm of polite feedback rather than ranting flames at my team.</p><p>Thanks.</p></blockquote><p>The only way that is even close to an even playing field is if you also started all the adventurers on a clean slate as well.. no kills in dungeons, no master slayer points, no exploration or quests.  Quite frequently crafters feel they get the short end of the stick when new things are put in the game, which often ends with a bit of overheated feedback. That is human nature and one of the things that people who ask the public to spend their money on their product come to expect. These are not direct attacks on your team, but on parts of the product that don't meet our expectations.</p><p>You guys work hard at trying to satisfy our many whims and for that we are often not as appreciative as you might like.  For that, I apologize, but rudeness in retaliation might not be the best course of action.</p>

[Beajay]

<p>From what I have seen of the new achievement system there are a number of things that aren't retroactive. It doesn't bother me as long as it is the same for everyone else. I'll just do the things again when I get time.</p><p>Frankly, there are so many changes with the new update that I am just happy there are more good changes than questionable ones. In fact, to me at least, the game just keeps getting better all the time.</p><p>So I, for one, thank the developers for the great job they have done. Keep up the good work guys and gals <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Maroger]

<p><cite>Aeryal@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except we get not credit for past combines which is a rip-off if you have reached level 80. It is just cheating players not to get credit. It is obvious that if you are a level 80 crafter you have done 1000 combines and then some.</p></blockquote><p><strong>And this has been explained.  This puts everyone on an even playing field.</strong></p><p>The purpose was also to NOT give everyone all the possible achievements automagically as soon as they log in.  There's no achievement there.</p><p>You will not get this reversed.  You're also getting quite thoroughly rude about it and I'd really prefer that you shifted back over into the realm of polite feedback rather than ranting flames at my team.</p><p>Thanks.</p></blockquote><p>The only way that is even close to an even playing field is if you also started all the adventurers on a clean slate as well.. no kills in dungeons, no master slayer points, no exploration or quests.  Quite frequently crafters feel they get the short end of the stick when new things are put in the game, which often ends with a bit of overheated feedback. That is human nature and one of the things that people who ask the public to spend their money on their product come to expect. These are not direct attacks on your team, but on parts of the product that don't meet our expectations.</p><p>You guys work hard at trying to satisfy our many whims and for that we are often not as appreciative as you might like.  For that, I apologize, but rudeness in retaliation might not be the best course of action.</p></blockquote><p>It is the selectivity of what is retroactive and what is not. I agree it would be better to start with a clean slate, but to just pick some and ignore others, even in the face of mathematical certainty of the correctness of the complaint,</p><p>This was an abitary decision made without any explanation other than "we have the power and can do it so shut up" - which is not much of an explanation.</p>

[Rijacki]

<p><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is the selectivity of what is retroactive and what is not. I agree it would be better to start with a clean slate, but to just pick some and ignore others, even in the face of mathematical certainty of the correctness of the complaint,</p><p>This was an abitary decision made without any explanation other than "we have the power and can do it so shut up" - which is not much of an explanation.</p></blockquote><p>At least you're being marginally more polite in -this- thread than you are in any other. But.. you're still hearing only what you want to hear and not what they're saying.</p><p>Prior to this achievement system, there was nothing IN the game tracking the number of combines a character has done. On EQ2Players, there is a track for how many items a character has made since inception or server move. The previous track is for ITEMS not combines and, due to various amounts produced for some recipes, THAT is wholey inaccurate a measure of combines. So... for the allegation "it is mathmatically.. blah blah".</p><p>An automatic grant of 1K combines at 80 -is- arbitrary. Why not grant that at level 70, I'm sure -that- is possible, too, especially if one is a transmuter or tinker, too. So why do you want to "cheat" the level 70 or level 60 crafter who is max transmuter or max tinkerer? How about the crafter who actually crafts for the broker box no matter if they're capped or not? Isn't it "mathmatically certain" that character has done 5K (or whatever the next break is) combines over the course of 5 years, shouldn't that count? How would you arbitrarily determine who gets credit for various other things no presently tracked? I'm sure there is "mathmatical impossiblities" that they couldn't possibly not acheived thus and so, too.</p><p>The explanation was not "we have the power and can do it so shut up", the explaination was and is "items not previously tracked in some manner prior to the achievement system won't get credit". You were, yes, asked several times and in several ways, culminating in this thread's more blunt warning, to stop harping on it and haranguing the devs about it and to stop calling them names and making spurious claims about them and their capabilities.</p><p>Even the non-AA granting poi location 'paths' between two aa poi locations aren't getting credit either. Those have to be rewalked even when someone -obviously- has the primary points and it is "mathmatically impossible" for them to have gotten from AA POI 1 to AA POI 2 without crossing through non-AA POI 3. They aren't singling out the crafters to "cheat" out of anything.</p><p>Should combines have been tracked previously? THAT is a completely different arguement. Heck, we had to fight tooth an nail to get crafting acknowledged at all on EQ2players or even noted on character select. THOSE were the days of crafters being treated as secondary. The fact combines weren't tracked previously is just an atifact, a side consequence, of those days. They'll be tracked now, THAT is an improvement!</p><p>Re. server moves and EQ2player resets: I moved Rijacki to and from Guk/AB, and then Rjack from Guk to AB - I am subject to that reset on my 80 crafters.. and have Rijacki's start date messed up and claiming she was started from the point of one of her moves, not her original, day one date. Oh well, that's life. I know when I started her, I don't need that to tell me. I know what discoveries I had at one point (including the embarassing ones *laugh*), I don't need to wave a banner for it.</p>

[Maroger]

<p><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is the selectivity of what is retroactive and what is not. I agree it would be better to start with a clean slate, but to just pick some and ignore others, even in the face of mathematical certainty of the correctness of the complaint,</p><p>This was an abitary decision made without any explanation other than "we have the power and can do it so shut up" - which is not much of an explanation.</p></blockquote><p>At least you're being marginally more polite in -this- thread than you are in any other. But.. you're still hearing only what you want to hear and not what they're saying.</p><p>Prior to this achievement system, there was nothing IN the game tracking the number of combines a character has done. On EQ2Players, there is a track for how many items a character has made since inception or server move. The previous track is for ITEMS not combines and, due to various amounts produced for some recipes, THAT is wholey inaccurate a measure of combines. So... for the allegation "it is mathmatically.. blah blah".</p><p>An automatic grant of 1K combines at 80 -is- arbitrary. Why not grant that at level 70, I'm sure -that- is possible, too, especially if one is a transmuter or tinker, too. So why do you want to "cheat" the level 70 or level 60 crafter who is max transmuter or max tinkerer? How about the crafter who actually crafts for the broker box no matter if they're capped or not? Isn't it "mathmatically certain" that character has done 5K (or whatever the next break is) combines over the course of 5 years, shouldn't that count? How would you arbitrarily determine who gets credit for various other things no presently tracked? I'm sure there is "mathmatical impossiblities" that they couldn't possibly not acheived thus and so, too.</p><p>The explanation was not "we have the power and can do it so shut up", the explaination was and is "items not previously tracked in some manner prior to the achievement system won't get credit". You were, yes, asked several times and in several ways, culminating in this thread's more blunt warning, to stop harping on it and haranguing the devs about it and to stop calling them names and making spurious claims about them and their capabilities.</p><p>Even the non-AA granting poi location 'paths' between two aa poi locations aren't getting credit either. Those have to be rewalked even when someone -obviously- has the primary points and it is "mathmatically impossible" for them to have gotten from AA POI 1 to AA POI 2 without crossing through non-AA POI 3. They aren't singling out the crafters to "cheat" out of anything.</p><p>Should combines have been tracked previously? THAT is a completely different arguement. Heck, we had to fight tooth an nail to get crafting acknowledged at all on EQ2players or even noted on character select. THOSE were the days of crafters being treated as secondary. The fact combines weren't tracked previously is just an atifact, a side consequence, of those days. They'll be tracked now, THAT is an improvement!</p><p>Re. server moves and EQ2player resets: I moved Rijacki to and from Guk/AB, and then Rjack from Guk to AB - I am subject to that reset on my 80 crafters.. and have Rijacki's start date messed up and claiming she was started from the point of one of her moves, not her original, day one date. Oh well, that's life. I know when I started her, I don't need that to tell me. I know what discoveries I had at one point (including the embarassing ones *laugh*), I don't need to wave a banner for it.</p></blockquote><p>That is why acknoweldging level 80 crafters as having done at least 1000 combines solves the issue of those who have tranferred to other servers.</p><p>Personally I think they should use the number in EQ2players and let those who have transferred take their lumps. But it is unfair to level  80 not to admit that they have at leastl done 1000+ combines. As for those below level 80 -- ie level 70 it won't take much to get to level 80.</p><p>But to fail to acknowledge the number of combines done by level 80 is arrogant and has not basis in fact other than they have the power and are going to do it. It says nothing about the fairness of treating level 80 crafter.</p><p>They could remove thje combine achievement altogether and substitute crafter who have their epic.  Their should also be one for harvesters who have gotten their harverster fabled cloak.</p>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<p><cite>Kaisha@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Btw, Rothgar .. I agree with Cloud .. </p><p>We should get the 1000 items crafted as a lvl 80 Crafter.  There is just no way that we didn't do @ least that much in the first place.  Add on the combines for a 400 tink/xmuter .. and it's a guarenteed amount. </p><p>While it's probably impossible to check .. *if* someone did Craft their way to 30K (crafting max) worth of RoK Factions .. that translates into the following calucation:  60,000 faction (30K pos + 30K neg)  / 750 Faction per writ = 80 Hand ins per Faction.   80 Hand ins * 6 combines per quest = 480 combines per faction.   480 combine per faction * 3 Factions = 1,440 combine RoK Crafting faction.  </p><p><strong>I understand the importance of a 'level playing field' and such but frankly I'm of the opinion that at the very least you guys should take the 1,000 combines and divide it by 80 and apply that many to our journals as a 'Fair way' to retro the amount.  So, 1000 / 80 = 12.5 combines per level.  Drop off the .5 and just give us a retro 12 combines per level and we'll (or at least I will) gladly finish out the remaining 40 combines (based on lvl 80 crafter, total retro would be 960). </strong></p><p>Pretty Please?  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Any new Crafter will still have the potential 'advantage' of being able to say they got the 10k worth of combines before lvl 80 if they really work at it prior to dinging lvl 80.  ....</p></blockquote><p>.... I still have this to say on the matter ....</p>

[Rijacki]

<p><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That is why acknoweldging level 80 crafters as having done at least 1000 combines solves the issue of those who have tranferred to other servers.</p><p>Personally I think they should use the number in EQ2players and let those who have transferred take their lumps. But it is unfair to level  80 not to admit that they have at leastl done 1000+ combines. As for those below level 80 -- ie level 70 it won't take much to get to level 80.</p><p>But to fail to acknowledge the number of combines done by level 80 is arrogant and has not basis in fact other than they have the power and are going to do it. It says nothing about the fairness of treating level 80 crafter.</p><p>They could remove thje combine achievement altogether and substitute crafter who have their epic.  Their should also be one for harvesters who have gotten their harverster fabled cloak.</p></blockquote><p>There is NO fair way to count it. ANY number used would be 100% arbitrary and would "cheat" many more than it would "help".</p><p>Those who have changed crafting class after getting rather high (or maxing) the first but aren't yet 80 would have done considerably more than 1K combines, but you think they should be "cheated".</p><p>Those who aren't quite 80 now but did a lot of crafting when they were capped at 50, 60, or 70 for the broker box or did a lot of grey crafting or is even a 400 skill tinker or transmuter, those too would have done considerably more than 1K combines, but you think they should be "cheated".</p><p>Even here you advocate "cheating" people out of what would "mathmatically be impossible not to have done" simply because at some time in the past they changed from one server to another.</p><p>The "failure" to acknowledge the number of combines done by a level 80 is no less and no more arrogant than you claiming the devs are doing it out of spite or ignorance. The "failure" to acknowledge the number of combines done by a level 80 is no less and no more arrogant than you artitrarily proclaiming who should be acknowledged (but only so that it would suit your characters and/or your playstyle). YOU are saying nothing about the fairness of treating ALL crafters.</p><p>The reward for getting the tradeskill "epic" IS the Earring of the Solstice and the craft specific cloak. The reward for the signature quest with harvesting IS the harvester cloak. Are there achievements for obtaining any other -single- quest reward?</p><p>BUT, instead of being confrontational and accusatory from your very first post, if you'd been suggestive, there might have been a way (like Kaisha's suggestion) to 'back count' combines that would be "fair" to ALL crafters.</p><p>Heck, EVEN at this point, you could still politely -suggest- a good achievement, such as an achievement which acknowledges obtaining both the crafter master cloak and the harvester cloak together on the same character. But, you're too busy spending energy finding ways you've been slighted.</p>

[Whilhelmina]

<p>Rijacki said more or less what I think on the problem and way better than I would be able to, so i'm not going to say it all a second time.</p><p>Currently, the achievement is tracking items and not combines (so I was able to give a look at the caps past 1000 (so 9000 and 100 000) on my woodworker. I think you guys said you would change that to actually track combines and not items ? If so, that's good.</p><p>Another point  : 1000 and 9000 combines are "easy" to make, but 100 000 seems a bit high to me. What about asking for 50 000 instead ? I must confess I have absolutely no idea of the time needed to reach 100 000 combines.</p><p>I'm against any kind of retroactivity for the reasons pointed by Rijacki.</p><p>What about an achievement for having done X number of TS quests ?</p><p>And what about some kind of tiumph giving a house item for a tradeskill achievement ?</p>

[Xelgad]

<p>We've just added more achievements between the 9000 and 100,000. They should be on test soon (tm).</p>

[Cloudrat]

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We've just added more achievements between the 9000 and 100,000. They should be on test soon (tm).</p></blockquote><p>LOL  I just logged in the toon that had completed the 100k (yeah doing arrows to speed up the process), not only is the 100k missing she now gets to make 25k more.  I thought you were joking.  The joke's on me.  I say 100k is too many so you add more?  More increments of the same thing ?  What is the final total now? </p>

[Xelgad]

<p>100,000 is still the maximum for now. The 25,000 you're seeing actually comes after the 9,000. There are a couple more until it finally reaches 100,000.</p><p>The reason you're seeing the 25,000 even after completing the 100,000 is because these aren't retroactive, so when I added the new ones, it doesn't count them as completed for you.</p>

[Cloudrat]

<p>Apparently I am not expressing myself well.  One last question.  Now, these numbers will be hypothetical because I can't look into things and see them.</p><p>Does it now mean we craft 1000 then 9001,  then 25000, then 50000, then 100000 for a grand total of 185,001?  When you added increments did you also increase the total number to complete this section of the achievements?</p><p>Cloudrat</p>

[Xelgad]

<p>No, the previous Achievement counts towards the next one. So when you get 100,000, it simply means 100,000. You'll get all of the other ones on the way.</p>

[Maroger]

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, the previous Achievement counts towards the next one. So when you get 100,000, it simply means 100,000. You'll get all of the other ones on the way.</p></blockquote><p>How to make something TOTALLY UNFUN and turn it into A GRIND. To say nothing about ignoring the number of combines a level 80 crafter had done. Total totalitarian method of design.</p><p>The more I hear about these achievement the less fun they sound and more like work with no real reward.</p>

[Te'ana]

<p>As it stands, the achievemnts are just grindfests.  I play for fun, not numbers. That means I don't want to emmulate the real world and grind away to keep from being laid off. So for me, and I suspect for a lot of others, the whole thing is pointless when the needed numbers are so incredibly high.</p><p>BTW, I don't care about being in the Guiness Book of Records either. I might look at the book and wonder why on earth anyone would want 27 foot long toenails, but I certainly wouldn't grow mine out to challenge the record LOL.</p>

[Whilhelmina]

SO the juicy statement "New crafting Achievements have been added" was 2 more achievements between 9000 and 100 000 ? wow. I'm disappointed. Could you reconsider the max achievement there ? 100 000 combines is really HUGE !

[Kiara]

<p>I'd like to take this moment to remind everyone that being polite and respectful is a good thing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Try to remember that the devs aren't out to screw you over and don't treat them like they are, if you please.</p><p>Thank you.</p>