Guardian Adjustments. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Croba

08-25-2009, 09:01 PM

Things that could possible to put the guardian class back in line.-Guardian myth: Add a hate gain, perhaps based off stone skin damage absorbed. Up the proc to 10% damage reduction again. Shielding of Vel'Arek should at the very least have immune to mezz added to it. Why is there an item in an instance that has a better proc then our mythical? Makes this portion of the myth rather pointless.Take the Killing blow off Unyielding Will, lets face it, its a piece of junk especially compared to some other classes.Guardian AA changes: Change Cripple end line or Got your back to something useful. Since Guardian's are more in line to be raid tanks and if we have our mythical we dont exactly need 60% riposte damage reduction. Maybe an ability that makes taunts unresistable while its applied to the mob. Got your back could be replaced with something similar to Sigil that transfers 10% of the groups hate to the guardian.Just Idea's that I wanted to kick around with the guardian community. Sure alot of other peeps have other idea's of what could help the class.

RafaelSmith

08-26-2009, 10:50 AM

While I agree the Guard myth is rather pathetic when compared to what other class Myths do for them.....I seriously doubt there is any point in asking for Myth changes since Myths will be a thing of the past come Feb 2010.-A group Moderate or Trak shield type buff as a replacement for a useless end-line like Got Your Back you be a nice addition.-Give us back the 60% DA-Maybe 1 blue ae with some sorta threat DOT component.-Hold The line made 100% instead of 50%.-come up with something more useful than 'exploding heart' =P

Yimway

08-26-2009, 11:48 AM

Got your back would be interesting if it was raidwide.

RafaelSmith

08-26-2009, 05:04 PM

Just dont take away Recapture...Its just too much fun to use on raids with 3+ fighters =P

Yimway

08-26-2009, 06:13 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just dont take away Recapture...Its just too much fun to use on raids with 3+ fighters =P</blockquote>Yes, it is quite fun to get all the other fighters killed on the trap in PoA.

thial

08-27-2009, 02:29 AM

Sentry Watch, when group member is hit has 50% chance to increase hate position by 1 and increase the duration. When Battle cry is up is hold the line is giving a 100% proc rate All group stone skins will increase hate towards the guardian excluding self stone skins Recapture should affect the caster, increasing the position of other fighters by 2 and by 1 to the caster, a longer recast might be needed. Unyielding Will, remove the death penalty and replace it with a de buff that is roughly half of normal revive sickness Cry of the warrior changed to a pbaoe, remove the target lock, add hate over time and increase hit rate.

Rahatmattata

08-27-2009, 02:50 AM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sentry Watch, when group member is hit has 50% chance to increase hate position by 1 and increase the duration. When Battle cry is up is hold the line is giving a 100% proc rate All group stone skins will increase hate towards the guardian excluding self stone skins Recapture should affect the caster, increasing the position of other fighters by 2 and by 1 to the caster, a longer recast might be needed. Unyielding Will, remove the death penalty and replace it with a de buff that is roughly half of normal revive sickness Cry of the warrior changed to a pbaoe, remove the target lock, add hate over time and increase hit rate.</blockquote>This would be amazing but:"Unyielding Will, remove the death penalty and replace it with a de buff that is roughly half of normal revive sickness"I think when UW procs it should increase our mitigation by a base % because you know... it's unyielding will. Like you just got your *** kicked, and now you have a second wind... renewed determination... and when your heart currently explodes, you should instead suffer some sort of burn-out, maybe a full rez sickness for an equal duration? A bonus would be if they worked it to not trigger if there is already a death save on you. In fact, they should make it so if you have a death save on you, noone else can cast theirs until the one on you expires or is used. "All group stone skins will increase hate towards the guardian excluding self stone skins"I highly doubt they would give us a new buff or AA, but this would have to be a togglable buff or a temp buff, because if you are in a group with another tank, they will get [Removed for Content] using this ability. Cry of the Warrior I'd actually prefer if they left it as a single target lock, increased the hit rate, and quit making mobs immune to it. Just my couple of suggestions, but overall I like your ideas. Another thing to think about is Sentinel's Fate will be giving us new AA that process off a series of events... or something. Like maybe a string of 3 blocks in a row would trigger some type of buff for example. I thought of a few ideas for these AA I'd like to have in another thread, but haven't really put much thought into it.The sad part is the chances of having any cool ideas like yours implemented is roughly 0.0% Instead of getting fixes like this that would keep the fun part of playing a guard fun... we will probably get some abortion of a total overhall, leaving us spamming the 1 and 2 buttons on our keyboards queing up taunts, and making sure we don't delay a taunt by casting a CA.Honestly, if I saw this list on test update notes I'd cream myself. They are minor tweaks that enhance a few abilities in a meaningful way, that would make a world of difference and not be completely OP. Crit and buff consolidation is one thing... and maybe it needs to be done. I wouldn't mind having group hp, stamina, and melee skills buffs consolidated to one buff for example. I don't see consolidating heal, melee, and spell crits, and tying in threat crits working out well, but whatever. I can deal with changes like this. But to take a sledge hammer to the face and completely gut the mechanics of tanking to be replaced by threat bots is something I hope doesn't happen. I would much, much rather see minor tweaks like these, and I wish (not much hope in me anymore) the class devs will do it right.

thial

08-27-2009, 01:22 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>This would be amazing but:"Unyielding Will, remove the death penalty and replace it with a de buff that is roughly half of normal revive sickness"I think when UW procs it should increase our mitigation by a base % because you know... it's unyielding will. Like you just got your *** kicked, and now you have a second wind... renewed determination... and when your heart currently explodes, you should instead suffer some sort of burn-out, maybe a full rez sickness for an equal duration? A bonus would be if they worked it to not trigger if there is already a death save on you. In fact, they should make it so if you have a death save on you, noone else can cast theirs until the one on you expires or is used.sounds good, personally for me the mit gain wont be much of an affect unless it's +2 or +3 and not a fixed amount of say 1000 but thats just due to gear.."All group stone skins will increase hate towards the guardian excluding self stone skins"I highly doubt they would give us a new buff or AA, but this would have to be a togglable buff or a temp buff, because if you are in a group with another tank, they will get [Removed for Content] using this ability. I didn't mean a position increase just something that is about equal to a taunt I originally wanted this to be a mythical ability but giving the unknown future of myths i can just /shrug at the idea Cry of the Warrior I'd actually prefer if they left it as a single target lock, increased the hit rate, and quit making mobs immune to it.When I think of "Cry of the warrior" I imagine the warrior letting out a huge roar getting the attention of all the mobs around him but yea a change you described would make the ca much more usefull. I think the last time I used this spell on zarakon to lock an add down and I was amazed it landed.Just my couple of suggestions, but overall I like your ideas. Another thing to think about is Sentinel's Fate will be giving us new AA that process off a series of events... or something. Like maybe a string of 3 blocks in a row would trigger some type of buff for example. I thought of a few ideas for these AA I'd like to have in another thread, but haven't really put much thought into it.I know nothing of the new AA's, I was not even aware of the chain AA's you mentioned any links or is that beta info? I watched the fain fair videos but don't recall any mention in that manner.The sad part is the chances of having any cool ideas like yours implemented is roughly 0.0% Instead of getting fixes like this that would keep the fun part of playing a guard fun... we will probably get some abortion of a total overhall, leaving us spamming the 1 and 2 buttons on our keyboards queing up taunts, and making sure we don't delay a taunt by casting a CA.Honestly, if I saw this list on test update notes I'd cream myself. They are minor tweaks that enhance a few abilities in a meaningful way, that would make a world of difference and not be completely OP. Crit and buff consolidation is one thing... and maybe it needs to be done. I wouldn't mind having group hp, stamina, and melee skills buffs consolidated to one buff for example. I don't see consolidating heal, melee, and spell crits, and tying in threat crits working out well, but whatever. I can deal with changes like this. But to take a sledge hammer to the face and completely gut the mechanics of tanking to be replaced by threat bots is something I hope doesn't happen. I would much, much rather see minor tweaks like these, and I wish (not much hope in me anymore) the class devs will do it right.</blockquote>We just have to keep chugging along till we get what is desired. And hope it's not a sludge hammer. I really think we need a dev for each fighter or each archetype or at the least a dev devoted to fighters not just one guy that is obviously bias towards certain classes.

Yimway

08-27-2009, 01:39 PM

If you want to fix guardians, provide them a base +50% hate modifier that stacks with the normal hate mod.Thats about the only thing I can see being done to provide guardians sufficient threat to tank for groups without coercer/dirge/transfers.

Rahatmattata

08-27-2009, 02:27 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I know nothing of the new AA's, I was not even aware of the chain AA's you mentioned any links or is that beta info? I watched the fain fair videos but don't recall any mention in that manner.</blockquote></blockquote>It was announed at <a href="http://fanfaire08.feldoncentral.com/2009/06/28/fan-faire-2009-eq2-news-rollup/" target="_blank">fan fair</a>.AA cap to 250. New abilities are going to be added to the bottom of the Class (KoS) and Subclass (EoF) AA Trees, below what is now the end abilities. Some of these endline abilities will be passive, triggering based on specific chains of other abilities being cast.

RafaelSmith

08-27-2009, 05:42 PM

One of the gear procs that I have found that actually helped me some was Mutagenic Burst. Course it didnt help enough but the fact that something like that gives a noticable improvment means we need more like it via Buff or AA....i.e mob hits us...we proc/reflect something on all mobs within the encounter.What about changing Hold The Line to proc on encounter like Mutagenic Burst does and give it a DMG component?And change the "on block" AA buff to Hold The Line to trigger on Parry instead of block. For me this AA is rather useless since i spend 95% of my tanking time not using a shield.Course this is all for not considering SOE could care less and never read these forums.

Yimway

08-27-2009, 06:24 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>What about changing Hold The Line to proc on encounter like Mutagenic Burst does and give it a DMG component?</blockquote>Mutagenic is pure aoe proc, not encounter, correct? I don't wear it most of the time, so I don't recall.If Hold The Line proc'd true aoe threat, it would go a long way towards fixing the class. Its a bit bassackwards though as you'd be running specs to take more hits to maximize aoe threat, but since we're a ST designed class, its a reasonable trade-off to gain aoe threat.Interesting idea, someone should add this to the stickied thread.

RafaelSmith

08-28-2009, 12:32 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>What about changing Hold The Line to proc on encounter like Mutagenic Burst does and give it a DMG component?</blockquote>Mutagenic is pure aoe proc, not encounter, correct? I don't wear it most of the time, so I don't recall.If Hold The Line proc'd true aoe threat, it would go a long way towards fixing the class. Its a bit bassackwards though as you'd be running specs to take more hits to maximize aoe threat, but since we're a ST designed class, its a reasonable trade-off to gain aoe threat.Interesting idea, someone should add this to the stickied thread.</blockquote>Yeah MB is pure aoe proc. I would be glad to be forced to take more hits if it meant AE threat procs. Not much difference really that having to sacrfice defense gear and AAs for DPS just to squeeze what little DPS I can which is what I have to do now.Ive parsed Hold The Line and not only does it rarely proc....its threat amount is meaningless in todays game where DPS has skyrockted. It needs to be buffed and made to do DMG and proc more often.....I know making it AE would help Guards like me alot with AE.Make it pure blue AE....that way we choose when to use it or not.

thial

08-28-2009, 02:26 AM

this is how i feel about hold the line.Its a buff that procs off when a guardian is hit, I'm going to call it reactive hate. So with that thought of mind a guardian would want is to get hit as often as possible. More damage taken = more hate gain. The problem is guardians and other tanks are able to achieve avoidence very close to the cap(80%) if not over with very minimul gear making reactive hate null. A guardian or even berzker should be able to mitigate somewhere around 80% while only having say 50% avoid...while crusadors sit at 70% mit 60% avoid and brawlers are at 80% avoid and 50% mit. So in theory a warrior would get hit more but that damage taken is about = to that of a crusador or brawler just the other tank avoid more hits. I hope someone understands what im trying to get at because atm the 18 pak i killed tonight is about to KO me. Good night...

RafaelSmith

08-28-2009, 11:14 AM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>this is how i feel about hold the line.Its a buff that procs off when a guardian is hit, I'm going to call it reactive hate. So with that thought of mind a guardian would want is to get hit as often as possible. More damage taken = more hate gain. The problem is guardians and other tanks are able to achieve avoidence very close to the cap(80%) if not over with very minimul gear making reactive hate null. A guardian or even berzker should be able to mitigate somewhere around 80% while only having say 50% avoid...while crusadors sit at 70% mit 60% avoid and brawlers are at 80% avoid and 50% mit. So in theory a warrior would get hit more but that damage taken is about = to that of a crusador or brawler just the other tank avoid more hits. I hope someone understands what im trying to get at because atm the 18 pak i killed tonight is about to KO me. Good night...</blockquote>LOL yeah I understand what your trying to say.SOE screwed up a long time ago and its the main reason balancing the 6 fighters has been a mess.The moment they turned all of us into "avoidance" tanks....alot of the initial Guardian things like Hold The Line became obsolete. Brawlers being the most screwed.I still think its silly the level of Avoidance the plate tanks can achieve. Non way I as a Guardian should be able to reach the numbers I can...and with average gear.That coupled with raw threat not scaling like DPS made things like "reactive hate" rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Yimway

08-28-2009, 11:28 AM

I think making Hold The Line aoe would be a good fix though.It wont add tons of threat on single targets, but we don't have as much trouble on single targets. It will add significantly more hate the more mobs we engage if its an aoe proc. Basically the more things hitting us, the more procs, the more procs in aoe, the more overall hate. Its not going to turn into the OMGWTFBBQPWN that grave sacrament is, but it will help build some steady hate over time on multimobs, something we're grossly lacking in.Also, do you guys take the shadows aa that adds HTL procs to Blocks? This works fairly well with me, but its going to favor guards that are geared more heavily with block chance.

RafaelSmith

08-28-2009, 11:30 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, do you guys take the shadows aa that adds HTL procs to Blocks? This works fairly well with me, but its going to favor guards that are geared more heavily with block chance.</blockquote>I have that AA but the areas of the game where I am having the aggro issues are instancing.....where I am almost never using a shield so my block chance is minimal.Which is why I would like to see that AA changed to procing on Parry rather than block.

thial

08-28-2009, 01:49 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think making Hold The Line aoe would be a good fix though.It wont add tons of threat on single targets, but we don't have as much trouble on single targets. It will add significantly more hate the more mobs we engage if its an aoe proc. Basically the more things hitting us, the more procs, the more procs in aoe, the more overall hate. Its not going to turn into the OMGWTFBBQPWN that grave sacrament is, but it will help build some steady hate over time on multimobs, something we're grossly lacking in.Also, do you guys take the shadows aa that adds HTL procs to Blocks? This works fairly well with me, but its going to favor guards that are geared more heavily with block chance.</blockquote>Only thing Id be worried about is the ae going off and agroing something threw the walls or a mob you don't want to attack like the frogs in seb for example. Or did you mean encounter based aoe.. I'm speced for the hate block ATM but i am considering droping it. I'm finding my self not needing a shield as often and just sticking with dw.. Oh and did you see the test notes? they say cry of the warrior won't resist as much, now we just need more mobs we can use it on.

RafaelSmith

08-28-2009, 02:30 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think making Hold The Line aoe would be a good fix though.It wont add tons of threat on single targets, but we don't have as much trouble on single targets.It will add significantly more hate the more mobs we engage if its an aoe proc. Basically the more things hitting us, the more procs, the more procs in aoe, the more overall hate.Its not going to turn into the OMGWTFBBQPWN that grave sacrament is, but it will help build some steady hate over time on multimobs, something we're grossly lacking in.Also, do you guys take the shadows aa that adds HTL procs to Blocks? This works fairly well with me, but its going to favor guards that are geared more heavily with block chance.</blockquote>Only thing Id be worried about is the ae going off and agroing something threw the walls or a mob you don't want to attack like the frogs in seb for example.</blockquote>Hold The Line is a buff we can choose to have up or not. I would be fine with it having a risk of aggroing extras....if I am in areas where that is important then I dont use it. Kinda like Druid infusion or our 40% AE auto-attack AGI AA. We are a ST tank so it stands to reason that any AE abilities we choose to utilize have some price and risk.

Yimway

08-28-2009, 04:20 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Only thing Id be worried about is the ae going off and agroing something threw the walls or a mob you don't want to attack like the frogs in seb for example.</blockquote>Hold The Line is a buff we can choose to have up or not. I would be fine with it having a risk of aggroing extras....if I am in areas where that is important then I dont use it. Kinda like Druid infusion or our 40% AE auto-attack AGI AA. We are a ST tank so it stands to reason that any AE abilities we choose to utilize have some price and risk.</blockquote>Just like we have to remove mutagenic items in areas they may cause problems.But I strongly agree with Gaylon on this one. Being ST focus, whatever gains we get in AoE threat should come at some peril / cost otherwise that wouldn't be too fair to our AoE focused brothers who WTFPWN our single target hate generation.

Astornoth

09-12-2009, 07:46 AM

Why not changing "Hold the Line" from on sucesfull hit into on atempt? It`ll triger every time mob is trying 2 hit us so once again high aviodance will be beneficial.

Landiin

09-13-2009, 01:35 AM

<cite>Astornoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why not changing "Hold the Line" from on sucesfull hit into on atempt? It`ll triger every time mob is trying 2 hit us so once again high aviodance will be beneficial.</blockquote>Yea change it to trigger on a hostile action and it would be golden..

Vlahkmaak

09-14-2009, 12:34 PM

Mutegenic burst is a blue aoe proc - I use the BP and the gloves when tanking Outter guk and it is a boon for guardian aggro in there. Have been trying forever and a day for the MGB Earing in lavastud to no avail. Their is a belt in RE2 but I prefer my Iron Will belt from Kor Sha - 8min re-use but ward on demand has proved better for me than ward proc chance.I had wanted to invest some time on my new pally to get these MGB items too just to see the proc/damage difference but I have been busy in Aion.

Oodog

09-14-2009, 11:04 PM

What guardians really need to get them back into line with other tanks is for reinforcements to be a until cancelled buff and make it work off dragoon's cyclone your aoe auto attack. As far as more DA on mythical weapon and crit with the current level of gear i get up to about 130% da and 110 % crit so we really need more crit or da on our mythical .add immune to mez and charm would be nice.+ to taunt amount would be nice as well.the biggest problem with guardians is not there buffs or aa’s or anything like that ( a real save would be nice divine aura ftw) its the fact the level of gear has made it so all tanks can now get as much mitigation and avoidance as a guardian so a aoe tank with max avoid max mit will be a better main tank then a guardian.Saying that bring on level 90 and class balance

Yimway

09-17-2009, 02:53 PM

<cite>Lump@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What guardians really need to get them back into line with other tanks is for reinforcements to be a until cancelled buff and make it work off dragoon's cyclone your aoe auto attack.</blockquote>An always on +1 hate position on strike ability would be way over the top overpowered.Thats worse than the failed fighter revamp, its 100% afk autoattack aggro instead of the push one button for the win method in the fighter revamp.

Terron

09-18-2009, 10:03 AM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mutegenic burst is a blue aoe proc - I use the BP and the gloves when tanking Outter guk and it is a boon for guardian aggro in there. Have been trying forever and a day for the MGB Earing in lavastud to no avail. Their is a belt in RE2 but I prefer my Iron Will belt from Kor Sha - 8min re-use but ward on demand has proved better for me than ward proc chance.</blockquote>There is also a MGB charm I got from a hot zone - Befallen COA IIRC - Charm of the Lost

Bibbles

09-22-2009, 04:10 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I agree the Guard myth is rather pathetic when compared to what other class Myths do for them.....I seriously doubt there is any point in asking for Myth changes since Myths will be a thing of the past come Feb 2010.^Pardon my ignorance here, but why are mythicals becoming a thing of the past for the SoF expansion?^-A group Moderate or Trak shield type buff as a replacement for a useless end-line like Got Your Back you be a nice addition.-Give us back the 60% DA-Maybe 1 blue ae with some sorta threat DOT component.-Hold The line made 100% instead of 50%.-come up with something more useful than 'exploding heart' =P^Completely agreed with this...although the balance side of things does make sense...but come on...even D&D had saving throws <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />...instead of "you live 3 minutes then heart explodes" it should be "You live based on a certain percentage chance/level, and even withthis you only get 2% of your health bar back"^I do have to say it's incredibly funny when you forget that it IS technically going to happen in 3 minutes, the healer heals you, you go into battle and plop to the floor mid fight</blockquote>

sylusmoonsnake

09-25-2009, 03:27 PM

How about a buff, Reflected Anger, or whatever you want to call it.Converts all mitigated or avoided damage to hate. Conversion ratio of 1.5mit to 1 hate, or whatever. The idea of putting extra taunts, or damage or changing us in any way to offensive slashers instead of steadfast walls like we should be imo. I mean we have the best defensive abilities in game, why not take that concept and make it work for us, if you use a defensive move, i.e. tos you generate hate based off of damage mitigated/avoided by using it. With Block endline, TOS and other defensive moves this would more than make up for lack of our current state. Though the epic is fail, it needs something that actually helps our class, or at least appears to. It's current state looks more like a EOF legendary item rather than an epic for end game. FYI-all rights reserved on term Reflected Anger, any use or acknowledgement of said term is subject compensation to poster. Compensation can be paid by fixing the issue so playing the Guardian isn't a downer compared to easy mode with SK. Payment in form of modifing Guard to uber tank and pushing others aside will not be accepted. There should be a balance of sorts I agree, not one class that is above all others, that does not mean that all tanks should act the same or rely on same to do their job. Just that All tanks should be able to hold agro just as efficiently as the others with pros and cons depending on the scenario. My SK should always be a little less effective at holding a single target, should be, and my Guard should always be able to hold on to that one boss better, and I would never want my SK to be able to have the same Avoidance/hp/mit that I can get with Guard, likewise I don't want my Guard to ever be able to put out the damage that my sk can, just doesn't fit the class descrip, but hey what do I know right. I just read the descriptions when at character creation.

Yimway

09-25-2009, 04:29 PM

<cite>Quarr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about a buff, Reflected Anger, or whatever you want to call it.Converts all mitigated or avoided damage to hate. Conversion ratio of 1.5mit to 1 hate, or whatever. The idea of putting extra taunts, or damage or changing us in any way to offensive slashers instead of steadfast walls like we should be imo. I mean we have the best defensive abilities in game, why not take that concept and make it work for us, if you use a defensive move, i.e. tos you generate hate based off of damage mitigated/avoided by using it. With Block endline, TOS and other defensive moves this would more than make up for lack of our current state. Though the epic is fail, it needs something that actually helps our class, or at least appears to. It's current state looks more like a EOF legendary item rather than an epic for end game. </blockquote>Is there a mechanic anywhere in this game that fires on a miss?I'm not sure its possible without some code re-write.

Moralpanic

10-11-2009, 01:29 AM

MoeSizlak

11-04-2009, 03:27 PM

The recapture idea I really like.Instead of changing Cry of the Warrior I'd like to see a similar change made to Sentinal Strike. Make Sent Strike a blue AoE, lower the damage some, and double both the initial and the over time taunt amounts.Those 2 changes alone would be a good start and would theoretically be small enough changes that they could be done prior to the expansion to give us some help on groups for the next few months...but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Davngr1

11-06-2009, 07:33 AM

bring guard myth up to par with other tanks myths. remove shild dmg from tower of stone or have it trigger from 20%+ dmg or add another tirgger. give guards some type of hate bonus while using a shild, after all guards a defensive tank with almost no dps ablitys how does offensive DW work in to the class? seems wrong to me. guard needs it's single target agro increased so it's possible to at least tab around and take agro in AE fights again. just some ideas.

Kigneer

11-06-2009, 09:24 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> give guards some type of hate bonus while using a shild, after all guards a defensive tank with almost no dps ablitys how does offensive DW work in to the class? seems wrong to me.</blockquote>Defensive tank? Does that even exist in EQ2 anymore? All I see now are Crusaders geared as Guardians, ignoring class attributes, playing offensively. It's really fun watching Crusaders run around with red or white mit, all to show they can play as a dps tank, only to watch a beetle kill them as they don't even bother to play their class right (like with Paladins, we don't have overall mit, and have to ward and heal to make up for it -- but don't tell those speccing for dps this fact).Simpliest thing for a Guard to fix is to ensure they will remain the mit kings. No Crusader or other tank class can match it even with switching gear or AAs (close but a Guard would be required to tank some zones as high mit is required). That way other classes will have no choice but to play their roles, not customize it to be what the class never intended to be. But they have to fix the healing mechanic before that's possible, as a Guard is a healer's worst nightmare. Add whack-a-mole healing on top of it (they got away with it in TSO because Crusaders can heal)...just don't go there.

RafaelSmith

11-06-2009, 11:25 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>give guards some type of hate bonus while using a shild, after all guards a defensive tank with almost no dps ablitys how does offensive DW work in to the class? seems wrong to me.</blockquote>Defensive tank? Does that even exist in EQ2 anymore? All I see now are Crusaders geared as Guardians, ignoring class attributes, playing offensively. It's really fun watching Crusaders run around with red or white mit, all to show they can play as a dps tank, only to watch a beetle kill them as they don't even bother to play their class right (like with Paladins, we don't have overall mit, and have to ward and heal to make up for it -- but don't tell those speccing for dps this fact).Simpliest thing for a Guard to fix is to ensure they will remain the mit kings. No Crusader or other tank class can match it even with switching gear or AAs (close but a Guard would be required to tank some zones as high mit is required). That way other classes will have no choice but to play their roles, not customize it to be what the class never intended to be. But they have to fix the healing mechanic before that's possible, as a Guard is a healer's worst nightmare. Add whack-a-mole healing on top of it (they got away with it in TSO because Crusaders can heal)...just don't go there.</blockquote>Something definately needs to be done to bring back the differences that distinguish the tanks.Even something as simple as "the dmg you do" is inverse to the "dmg you take" has been deluted. As it stands today a SK in D-stance with tank gear and 1h/shield will still out DPS a O-stance Guard duel wielding.......and take alot less DMG to boot. ST -vs- AE tank is gone as well. SK is lesser gear can hold aggro on a ST better than a Guard.

Kigneer

11-06-2009, 12:59 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something definately needs to be done to bring back the differences that distinguish the tanks.Even something as simple as "the dmg you do" is inverse to the "dmg you take" has been deluted. As it stands today a SK in D-stance with tank gear and 1h/shield will still out DPS a O-stance Guard duel wielding.......and take alot less DMG to boot. ST -vs- AE tank is gone as well. SK is lesser gear can hold aggro on a ST better than a Guard.</blockquote>Agree.A tank is there as a shield to keep the squishes from being roadkill. For the advantage of plate and high mitigation they aren't a dps class. This is fair, because if tanks had plate, dps with mit there's really no reason to play any other class but for variety.What isn't fair is turning the game into everything-is-dps, and tanks are trying to match dpsers so they don't sink on the parsers. That SK wants to look good as a spell tank, so he goes nuts in offensive stance and can get away with it with 6 healers/Dirge/Coercer. But that same SK in a group? I'm rezzing him for his stupidity of pulling a zone and thinking he's Superman with 1 or 2 healers and low mit in offensive stance. I stop healing them when they are rezzed and do it again, and soon enough they leave and we get a more sensible MT who understands HP/HoTs doesn't equate to high green mit that can take a mob face on (yes, I MA/OT more than MT as that's what I enjoy mob control).With Crusaders this expansion it's about dps. In their rush to get there they always seem to forget things like +parry (something Guards have in spades). Their AGI is often lower than 500 and avoidance hovers below 60%, and they claim it's not essential. If I listened to only the Paladins on this forum, I couldn't clear zones without a perfect group. But if I studied the perks of various tank classes and geared accordingly, I can survive (and ironically get more calls to MT). So from experimenting, I can see why Guards have been considered "the tank" for raids, as they flat out can survive what other tank classes can't -- mit and avoidance as crucial for MTing, not just buffed up stats.Bring mit and avoidance back (not just critical mit), and Guards can be fine again.

Yimway

11-06-2009, 06:18 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something definately needs to be done to bring back the differences that distinguish the tanks.Even something as simple as "the dmg you do" is inverse to the "dmg you take" has been deluted. As it stands today a SK in D-stance with tank gear and 1h/shield will still out DPS a O-stance Guard duel wielding.......and take alot less DMG to boot. ST -vs- AE tank is gone as well. SK is lesser gear can hold aggro on a ST better than a Guard.</blockquote>Agree.A tank is there as a shield to keep the squishes from being roadkill. For the advantage of plate and high mitigation they aren't a dps class. This is fair, because if tanks had plate, dps with mit there's really no reason to play any other class but for variety.</blockquote>Man, not this again...The game has debth allowing fighters to build themselves vs whatever content they have in front of them. If their gear and level provides it, approaching content in a dps build should be a valid means of tanking, they should just have a real survivability penalty for taking an offensive tanking stance.Then of course they should ALSO be able to be the shield for the group you talk about.The key is, both sets of play can and should be viable depending on the gear of the tank and the content in front of them.It is perfectly reasonable for my guardian to run almost every heroic instance in the game in offensive+dw. As well, the gear and HP on him far outclasses the requirements for that content. I should be able to take this way vs content that doesn't pose a significant threat to me. At the same time, a tank at the gear level more approriate for the zone should be in his defensive build holding aggro via more traditional means.A good tank ballance will allow for both styles of play to be valid, and it will allow all tanks to spec to either end of that envelope. Your individual class is going to set where the ends of that evelope is, and one class is going to be more on the dps side, the other more on the defensive side, and thats what should provide deliniation between the tank classes.

RafaelSmith

11-09-2009, 04:45 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something definately needs to be done to bring back the differences that distinguish the tanks.Even something as simple as "the dmg you do" is inverse to the "dmg you take" has been deluted.As it stands today a SK in D-stance with tank gear and 1h/shield will still out DPS a O-stance Guard duel wielding.......and take alot less DMG to boot.ST -vs- AE tank is gone as well. SK is lesser gear can hold aggro on a ST better than a Guard.</blockquote>Agree.A tank is there as a shield to keep the squishes from being roadkill. For the advantage of plate and high mitigation they aren't a dps class. This is fair, because if tanks had plate, dps with mit there's really no reason to play any other class but for variety.</blockquote>Man, not this again...The game has debth allowing fighters to build themselves vs whatever content they have in front of them. If their gear and level provides it, approaching content in a dps build should be a valid means of tanking, they should just have a real survivability penalty for taking an offensive tanking stance.Then of course they should ALSO be able to be the shield for the group you talk about.The key is, both sets of play can and should be viable depending on the gear of the tank and the content in front of them.It is perfectly reasonable for my guardian to run almost every heroic instance in the game in offensive+dw. As well, the gear and HP on him far outclasses the requirements for that content. I should be able to take this way vs content that doesn't pose a significant threat to me.At the same time, a tank at the gear level more approriate for the zone should be in his defensive build holding aggro via more traditional means.A good tank ballance will allow for both styles of play to be valid, and it will allow all tanks to spec to either end of that envelope. Your individual class is going to set where the ends of that evelope is, and one class is going to be more on the dps side, the other more on the defensive side, and thats what should provide deliniation between the tank classes.</blockquote>Considering that we have been dreaming of that "good tank balance'" since LU#13 its pretty clear its not something SOE is capabable of delivering. What we get instead is that seesaw of tank balance where we ponder to which class OPness will swing next.......and which other tank on the other end of the seesaw gets their butt slammed into the ground.The current state of the game is such if we look at a Guardian and SK in same 'level gear'.....the SK in D-stance with 1h/shield will out DPS, out aggro and out-survive the Guardian in O-stance/DW. Its broken.EQ2 is far from having good tank balance.And SOE wants to just make as all taunt bots which is not a solution.

Kigneer

11-09-2009, 05:26 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The game has debth allowing fighters to build themselves vs whatever content they have in front of them.</blockquote>When? If you build a tank that doesn't agree with XYZ mob's viewpoint here, it's "you don't know what you're talking about" crap enters the equation. And what about what that remark about looking at AA specs for 2 to 3 minutes to make a cookie cutter toon to the peanut gallery's satisfaction?But it doesn't address the very real broken nature of Guardians now. They can't hold hate, when even I can draw it off of them in fabled/T2+/Amends off/defensive stance/basically melee attacks as spells spike hate -- and it takes forever (I have to literally stop doing anything) for them to get it back, yes they're broken. It used to be all a Guard needed to do is snap it back and all was well again, and I could be in offensive mode/with spells.

Davngr1

11-09-2009, 07:00 PM

two ways to bring balance back: #1 give guads more ca dmg. new CA or temp spell that will allow big dmg like offensive tanks. #2 give guard the *clear* upper hand in defensive tanking. i don't mind working twice as hard as other tanks for agro, matter of fact im use to it since i been doing it since dof with my guard, what i do mind is my guard working twice as hard for agro and having the same or worst survivability depending on situation. 3 stone skins form tos, 6 stone skins from sphere, 1 block is nothing compared to adren and furror when you have 8 mobs on you. this means all guards saves < furror/adren

RafaelSmith

11-10-2009, 03:33 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>two ways to bring balance back:#1 give guads more ca dmg. new CA or temp spell that will allow big dmg like offensive tanks.#2 give guard the *clear* upper hand in defensive tanking.i don't mind working twice as hard as other tanks for agro, matter of fact im use to it since i been doing it since dof with my guard, what i do mind is my guard working twice as hard for agro and having the same or worst survivability depending on situation.3 stone skins form tos, 6 stone skins from sphere, 1 block is nothing compared to adren and furror when you have 8 mobs on you. this means all guards saves < furror/adren</blockquote>I just dont see #2 happening without a major rework of how aggro and combat mechanics work in the game. Currently for the vast majority of the games content... "defensive" is not viable. So even if we were given more of a upper hand in Def tanking it would not change much since its very situational......and we sorta already have the upper hand for those few fights.Would do nothing to fix us for all the other content. For heroic and lower tier raiding being a defensive tank is a liability......we instead have to turn into bastardized "offensive" tanks.

Davngr1

11-12-2009, 06:10 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>two ways to bring balance back:#1 give guads more ca dmg. new CA or temp spell that will allow big dmg like offensive tanks.#2 give guard the *clear* upper hand in defensive tanking.i don't mind working twice as hard as other tanks for agro, matter of fact im use to it since i been doing it since dof with my guard, what i do mind is my guard working twice as hard for agro and having the same or worst survivability depending on situation.3 stone skins form tos, 6 stone skins from sphere, 1 block is nothing compared to adren and furror when you have 8 mobs on you. this means all guards saves < furror/adren</blockquote>I just dont see #2 happening without a major rework of how aggro and combat mechanics work in the game. Currently for the vast majority of the games content... "defensive" is not viable. So even if we were given more of a upper hand in Def tanking it would not change much since its very situational......and we sorta already have the upper hand for those few fights.Would do nothing to fix us for all the other content. For heroic and lower tier raiding being a defensive tank is a liability......we instead have to turn into bastardized "offensive" tanks.</blockquote>yea tanking in defense is not really what i had in mind, what i was meaning was having guard longivity abilitys booste or adding more so guards can start taking a much more agressive offensive build in gear/aa, even when tanking hard mobs.

Netty

11-14-2009, 12:36 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>two ways to bring balance back:#1 give guads more ca dmg. new CA or temp spell that will allow big dmg like offensive tanks.#2 give guard the *clear* upper hand in defensive tanking.i don't mind working twice as hard as other tanks for agro, matter of fact im use to it since i been doing it since dof with my guard, what i do mind is my guard working twice as hard for agro and having the same or worst survivability depending on situation.3 stone skins form tos, 6 stone skins from sphere, 1 block is nothing compared to adren and furror when you have 8 mobs on you. this means all guards saves < furror/adren</blockquote>I just dont see #2 happening without a major rework of how aggro and combat mechanics work in the game. Currently for the vast majority of the games content... "defensive" is not viable. So even if we were given more of a upper hand in Def tanking it would not change much since its very situational......and we sorta already have the upper hand for those few fights.Would do nothing to fix us for all the other content. For heroic and lower tier raiding being a defensive tank is a liability......we instead have to turn into bastardized "offensive" tanks.</blockquote>I dont agree with you one bit here.. Guards are ment to be the Defensive tank. Guards need to have the upper hand in def tanking and thats the way it should be. I dont want ease mode for instance tanking and solo cont. Thats not the a guard to me. And OTing loads of adds... Leave that to the AoE tanks. the thing that are out of wack atm is that all tanks are kinda much the same in the end in def or very close.Thinking like you do where is what gets the game out of balance. And this was the problem when all this started aswell.and Davngr if you say you have worked so hard for aggro all expansions i have a question for you... you dident play in kos huh? Kos = ease mode with the Sta line.