Please Give Bards Better DPS - Faster Casting - Heres Why.... [Archive]

Kunaak

08-24-2009, 07:43 PM

I play a tank 90% of the time, I raid as an assassin. I do have many alts I enjoy as well, but those are my mains. as a Tank, the one thing you quickly do as a tank, is get a small list of good healers, and bards, and try to group with them often, and if you tank well, they will want to group with you too. we all enjoy instance content from time to time. but instances in the ferzul/outer stronghold range, you really have a [Removed for Content] hard time ahead of you, if you dont bring a bard of some sort.as a tank for 2 years now, I have a long list of "use to be bards", dirges and troubs that have either quit playing that toon, for another class, or barely play at all.from what I have have noticed, your usual bard, stops playing his bard in about 3 months. after they get thier mythical, and some raid gear, or instance loot... they just seem to either disappear, or really only play as thier guilds about to raid.my friend I played with for a year, was a dirge, and now plays a mystic full time, or a warlock and brig in spare time. when listening to his complaints, it sounded familiar cause I had heard them all before. Bards only do OK on DPS when compared to other scout classes, such as brigands and assassins. why? I mean, I know they shouldnt be top end DPS, but when I raid on my assassin, its rare for me to see a bard of any class parse half as high as I do on my assassin.thing is, I've heard this alot, bards want to parse well, like any other DPS class, but when evenly geared they only do OK against other scout classes. as a assassin, it wouldnt kill me to see a bard inching up on my DPS.then theres the whole "Buff Bot" thing people seem to get sick of. a bard dies in raid, they got about 10 spells to cast and it can take about 30 seconds to get them all cast. on top of that, when things are really getting bad, a few deaths back to back can really make being a bard more a nuisance then anything. no matter who you are, you get sick of sitting there casting buffs, and wasting DPS time, when the raid is going on.like any scout, you want to get in there and do your part. thats the fun of raiding, to do something. but the amount and time of bard buffs casting just seems excessive, when you realize how many buffs they really got to cast.I dont know what to really say, I am no expert on bards, but I do know one thing - they sure do disappear alot more then most other classes.as a tank, I love tanking, I will put up with 100 deaths in a raid, just to get a good pull spot down, and last a minute on the encounter (IE zarrakon) just to learn what to do next time and be alittle better.as an assassin, its exciting to joust out, throw up a few buffs, just before the AOE hits, then run in, and see yourself doing a great parse, and competing against the other DPS in your groups/raid (we have 2 assassins in our raids, so we have alot of fun trying to outparse each other)but there seems to be a general lack of really wanting to be a bard, by people that are bards. so they seem to quite the class alot more then other classes, in favor of dedicated DPS classes like wizards and assassins.I've seen alot of great bards just disappear over the last 2 years, sometimes to become a different class they had more fun with, or just leave all together. its sad really, cause they were great at it, but the class as it was, wasnt enough to really be enjoyable for a long period of time, cause it seems to be lacking in same basic areas, and the perception that bards can just "autofollow and no one would know they werent there" is kinda sad really. if I as a tank can love tanking, and as an assassin, have a great deal of fun working on my DPS... shouldnt bards be able to have some sort of fun that keeps them attracted to playing that class to?

Coho1

08-24-2009, 07:49 PM

They need parsers that give credit to each toon for its buffs in DPS/Heals. How much DPS does a bard give you? It makes a huge difference to me. I find thanks and backpatting helps. That said give them alittle more DPS doesn't hurt me.

Xalmat

08-24-2009, 08:29 PM

The problem with tracking how much DPS is added from bard buffs is that it's actually very difficult to do, with the exception of direct proc damage from Chime, Aria, and Perfection of Maestro.Not everyone benefits equally from the same buff: If someone is sitting 100 DPS mod solo, and another person sits at 0 DPS mod solo, and the Dirge runs his DPS buff, who benefits more? You might say the person with 0 DPS, but you're also ignoring weapon selection: if the person with 100 DPS mod solo has mythical and raid fabled off hander, and the person with 0 is using mastercrafted or worse, it's possible the mythical'd person will gain more DPS even though the actual gain is much lower.And in either case, how much raw dps is that exactly? Given the parse breakdown, can you tell me without busting out a calculator, looking up tables of data, and so on? I couldn't.And what about Jcap? Can you tell me how much raw damage it actually adds? What about Don't Kill The Messenger? What about the INT portion of Perfection of the Maestro?

Kulaf

08-24-2009, 08:51 PM

I've always said that it takes a certain mindset to play a Bard. I did it for about 8 years in EQ1 and made my Troub on day 1 of release in EQ2. It takes a person who sees the big picture......that your assistance to the raid is more important than your own personal glory (DPS parse).That said I would love to have an offensive stance like all of the other Scouts do. Yeah we have a personal buff but it is reactionary in nature and really designed for soloing.....which we don't do well even with the self buff. And I would also like a defensive stance for soloing.As far as grouping......well Bards have lost a lot of their shine due to other classes getting more utility buffs. So a lot of Bards tend to fade away.I am not sure more personal DPS is a solution to keeping people playing a Bard.....as I said I think it has to sort of be in you from the get go. But more DPS would certainly make the class more fun and desireable in group situations, and would not in any way unbalance us in raids. Especially when you factor in the upcoming changes to make having more than one of each Bard less desireable in raids.

Guy De Alsace

08-25-2009, 02:46 PM

People probably get sick of playing Troubs because their primary function is to pump up everyone else's DPS. I have been in groups where Mages have actually fallen out over who gets Upbeat just so they can ramp up the all consuming, all important, all holy parse.My Troub is now my main and I enjoy playing her. Yes, I get no credit whatsoever. I dont get complemented on my parse, or patted on the back about my healing ability or a handshake over how well I tanked an encounter. My job is the background, where it belongs IMO.I'd rather they made our dps worse and increased the power of our buffs to a point where people really begin to appreciate it. At the moment they get JC'd and PotM every so often but the Bard is largely invisible in a group.I'm really pig sick of parsing and ACT. Its getting so that people are neglecting their classes' primary roles just to do as much DPS as is possible. Healers rolling on the Bloodthirsty Choker...declaring they are going to dps an instance. Tanks continually trying to DW no matter what. Its all about glory on the parse now. That coupled with the trend with encounters being reliant on the players' reaction times rather than the actual toon they are playing is beginning to dilute everyone into the same boring gene pool.Rant over.

Fendaria

08-25-2009, 03:19 PM

I've seen the opposite of the OP in my guild. My guild has had two players who switched their mains completely over to bards and are loving it, with another two strongly considering it. One player had a 200AA mythic'd toon he barely plays anymore in favor of his bard. Why? Ease of finding a group. His bard barely waits any time at all to find a group while his old main would wait for hours. His personal DPS is under half of what it used to be but he is geting 3x to 4x the number of group invites now on his bard and having a blast.Fendaria

Kunaak

08-25-2009, 05:13 PM

to be honest here, if your a Monk, Bruiser, ranger , Fury, Conjuror or Necro, your time in the game is gonna be rather lonely. each of these classes are at a disadvantage compared to other classes in alot of peoples eyes.brawlers are paper tanks, furys have weak heals, and summoners are just screwed no matter what... and poor rangers... I dont even wanna go there.thats the perception of these classes, it takes truely exceptional players to break the mold of what people think of these classes, and there are players that do. but in general, if your playing a class like this.... you better either have some real good friends that play with you no matter what, or something like that.but on the flip side, some classes are just majorly over populated - like SK's at the moment are INCREDIBLY OVERPOWERED... and every tank in the world seems to now have a SK alt they are working on. which unavoidably leads to a tougher time being that class, since you cant walk 10 feet without falling over 17 bad SK's that wiped your group.so I can see it, where there would definatly be alot of reason why a bard would have a much easier time to find a group. theres no doubt about that.one thing brought up that sounded so simple but perfect was the stance idea. bards with thier own stances... that is such a simple idea that could just be the edge they need to give people a better incentive to play bards - get good at being a bard - then stay with the class.on DPSDPS is definatly a big issue sometimes. from a tanks point of view heres what I can tell you - us tanks, we dont have a whole lot of things that help us maintain aggro. theres no +10 to hate items out there, theres no shields with great deals of reducing the resistability of taunts .... which yes, taunts to have a extremely high resist rate once you start getting in zones around 85+. we dont get much of anything to actually help us maintain aggro.... which is rather odd, cause DPS classes get things that have +75 to CA damage, and +6 Double Attack, and so on. theres maybe 5 things in the entire game that gain us more aggro.some are just a joke - like the charm from Nuroga - looks awesome, but run a single zone with it, and ACT up, and you'll wonder why you ever wore it in the first place - its got a 100% resist rate, no matter what zone your in. theres some good items like the old L78 BP that had +5 to hate gain for tanks... but why isnt that kinda thing more common on tank gear? the void bane pieces from Palace of Ferzul has some hate gain... but the pieces themself arent really good for a tank, since they have stats like +10 STA, and little to no DPS.when every other class has exponential ways to increase thier DPS... a tank really only has 4-5 items in the entire game that actually are designed for a tank, and those items are few and far between, due to extremely high resist rates, out dated gear, or crap gear (like the trash loot from palace of the ancient one)so what happens is, every tank quickly realizes if they want to hold aggro, it really does come down to upping your parse, and 100% of the time, this means the first thing a tank gives up, is their defensive stance. then out goes the gear like the charm from nuroga, in favor of some DPS gear. cause theres nothing really out there to actually help a tank do thier job, cause every DPS class in the game has a huge amount of ways to increase thier DPS, but tanks have almost nothing to help them maintain aggro - until they stop thinking of tanking, and go DPS.

Arianah

08-26-2009, 01:04 AM

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd rather they made our dps worse and increased the power of our buffs to a point where people really begin to appreciate it. At the moment they get JC'd and PotM every so often but the Bard is largely invisible in a group.</blockquote>I'd quit playing my troub if they did that. I understand the role of the bard is to make others look better and not be at the top of the parse, but to take away any dps abilities.... no thanks <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm fine with dps the way it is now, I wouldn't complain if we were given more though.

Foulou

08-26-2009, 04:23 AM

i'm able to do 10k+ on palace trash, not the new trash with no hp but those before, so i'm ok with my dirge dps =) also i've been playing it for a year or more, and i'm doing rez, gravitas and cob. Each class have his potential and limits and you have to ajust the way you play. but i admit, when i die it's just toooooo long to rebuff :/

Nimbrithil

08-27-2009, 02:58 PM

1. Bards are not nor have they even BEEN considered DPS. BEFORE the combat changes that made even tanks parse 4 to 5k that wasn't an issue. Its only recently that the parse has become the end all be all indicator of how effeective your toon is.2. Any bad who does NOT feel liek they are contributing or they have someone decide to make a smartA~@ comment about parse, they should just do what I did. Strip every buff off then spam the parse to the raid,,,,and ask everyone what happneed to thier dps.The REAL big problem I agree though is the buffs.

Kulaf

08-28-2009, 03:42 AM

Well the buffing is not going to be an issue since on Test buffs persist through death. So that part is solved. With respect to Dirge DPS vs. Troub DPS.....well Dirges have the advantage in personal numbers. The effect on your mysthical means your auto attack numbers just blow us away. Now if they put in a proc on the Ayonic Axe that made all of my spells hit for max damage like your myth does for your melee attacks......we could talk. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Kunaak

08-30-2009, 04:35 PM

you know, I think when you start talking about making a bard into a DPS class specifically, then your complicating things.what I am suggesting is giving a bard a extra boost in personal DPS to atleast be more in line with other scout classes, not to surpass them, but give them a better edge getting near them on the parse.see, when all is said and done, when you have all your buffs up - what are you left to do? when your in raid, what are you doing 90% of the time your not casting your buffs? (and not rezzing) - your DPSing.thing is, even the best bards I know, can only get half my own parses. I have some avatar geared friends that play with us sometimes, and even they (Avatar Geared Bards) are rather easy to beat on the parse, which I honestly wouldnt be too happy with if I was them, cause while my toon is very well geared, I am no where near your average avatar geared scout.I just say this, cause I really hate the fact that everytime I see a good bard quit... they start playing a pure DPS class, cause they were never happy being only the buff bot in raids. people complain that its all about the parse... well no, its really not. every person in a raid, wants to do thier best, so we all try hard as hell to do our best with what we are. healers want to heal well, mages want to DPS well, scouts want to DPS well, tanks want to hold aggro well.

Seiffil

09-01-2009, 06:33 AM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>you know, I think when you start talking about making a bard into a DPS class specifically, then your complicating things.what I am suggesting is giving a bard a extra boost in personal DPS to atleast be more in line with other scout classes, not to surpass them, but give them a better edge getting near them on the parse.see, when all is said and done, when you have all your buffs up - what are you left to do? when your in raid, what are you doing 90% of the time your not casting your buffs? (and not rezzing) - your DPSing.thing is, even the best bards I know, can only get half my own parses. I have some avatar geared friends that play with us sometimes, and even they (Avatar Geared Bards) are rather easy to beat on the parse, which I honestly wouldnt be too happy with if I was them, cause while my toon is very well geared, I am no where near your average avatar geared scout.I just say this, cause I really hate the fact that everytime I see a good bard quit... they start playing a pure DPS class, cause they were never happy being only the buff bot in raids. people complain that its all about the parse... well no, its really not. every person in a raid, wants to do thier best, so we all try hard as hell to do our best with what we are. healers want to heal well, mages want to DPS well, scouts want to DPS well, tanks want to hold aggro well.</blockquote>You're not really going to get a big boost in personal dps, unless you probably want to start losing the effectiveness of your buffs. It's the same way things were back in eq1, albeit less carpal tunnel issues. Bards weren't there for purely dps, they were their to make your existing dps classes better. It's a utility class, not a full out dps class.

dragon459

09-01-2009, 10:25 AM

As someone said earlier , i'm pretty happy with my dps at the moment as a Troubador. I wouldnt mind a tad more due to the fact we have the least dps potential of the buff classes , but i'm happy either way. Makes me wanna work harder to try and keep up with them.As for the comments of lower personal dps for greater utility , i wouldn't care for that too much. I'm happy not being a pure buff bot. I like the fact that i can add more to my group than just the buffs i bring. If it ever got to the point where all i did was melee and cast buffs on other people , i would probably quit due to being bored.

Barx

09-01-2009, 10:43 AM

<cite>Locan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>As someone said earlier , i'm pretty happy with my dps at the moment as a Troubador. I wouldnt mind a tad more due to the fact we have the least dps potential of the buff classes , but i'm happy either way. Makes me wanna work harder to try and keep up with them.As for the comments of lower personal dps for greater utility , i wouldn't care for that too much. I'm happy not being a pure buff bot. I like the fact that i can add more to my group than just the buffs i bring. If it ever got to the point where all i did was melee and cast buffs on other people , i would probably quit due to being bored.</blockquote>Yeah, you just need to be not dead to keep those buffs running. Thankfully group buffs will persist through death soon <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But to the OP -- Bards are and have always been utility/buff classes. Yes, they can still do OK dps, but their major potential is in the buffs the provide. Heck, why do you think you see so many pick-ups asking for bards?

Asif

09-01-2009, 06:11 PM

Good topicI have been playing a Troub since the day eq2 went live and am just now starting to get tired of him because of lack of dps ( will keep playing for my raiding guild).I am not really sure what we need but i am starting to have way more fun with my assassin just because i can at least try to get in on the dps race.I wish i knew the fix for our class maybe alittle more dps would help but i dont really see how that would make a big differance.Maybe stances would help or poison at 50% damage of assassinsBut like other's here i am seeing Bards quitting in favor of playing dps classes and its up to the developers to try and fix this.Also keeping buffs up thru death will make me very happy so thats a start. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

BlueEternal

09-17-2009, 05:26 PM

People always bring up the "You are a support class argument". It's a legit argument but there's only so much support we have control of during fights. Sure we have our permanent buffs but while we're not casting POTM/Jcap what is there to do? DPS! I'm not sure atm my stance on bard dps, there is always room for improvement with my toon but i just feel like we're limited.

Backpayne

09-20-2009, 08:20 AM

After reading this entire thread twice (first time dumbfounded me so much I had to make sure I read it right) I can't help but ask...Bards/enchanters already get 8 spots out of 24 in every raid. They buff everyones dps so they can maximize their dps...and now you're asking to get a dps boost?We have a dirge in our raid force that does 10k dps. We have a troub parsing out 8k pretty regularly. We have an illy parsing 25k and a coercer doing 14-16k. Utility classes are just that, utility. When you made the choice to play a utility class, you accepted that your PRIMARY role is to buff everyone else and increase their dps. If you're so concerned about parsing out the top numbers, play a dps class.ORYou sacrifice half your utility to other dps classes like so they can still be considered for raid spots. Take a look at brigands, we're losing half our buffs to summoners so they can be more desireable in raids. A conjurer that I know parses 25k on multi-mob encounters and 16-18k on single target. One of the best brigs game-wide parses 19k but we're still losing some of our debuffs to a higher parsing class. Why? Too many poor players can give ANY class a horrible name. It should be pretty obvious but, if you've missed the point, I'll spell it out for ya. Just because YOU are not parsing in the higher numbers, it doesn't mean the class itself is not capable of it. I'm not keen on the whole mentality of telling people to L2Play their class and all that jazz BUT... if you're going to beg and plead to be a dps class, make sure you are ready to give something up. You should know by now that nothing is given without something being taken. If you want more dps, you WILL lose some of the utility.Consider the upcoming changes that are being discussed. Some bard buffs are supposedly going raid-wide. This means that the demand is going to go down to some degree depending on how its handled. If that change goes live, chances are some of you are going to be out of the raid force so they can pull another dps class in.Just throwing something out there to think about. I'm not directing any of this at a single person or class, just stating that maybe the fault is not with the mechanics of a given class.

TheSpin

09-20-2009, 10:52 AM

I agree one major idea behind this post. That idea being the belief that bards just aren't fun enough to play to keep players interested in the class. I know many players who are reluctant to play their bards over time.I would have to say that I think dps increases need to be seriously considered and that it might not be the best solution to the problem. I would suggest some increased soloability, or possibly crowd control instead. I love to raid with my brigand because it makes me stronger as an individual character. I am not as attracted to playing a high level bard because no matter how good his gear is, he will still have a much harder time on his own.

Chefren

09-21-2009, 03:35 AM

Am I the only one who think bards are fine and are lucky to have the dps potential we have now?Troubs can dps just as well as Dirges btw, they just get put in groups that do not allow them to realize their own dps potential as well because of their own buffs.If they ever revamp Bards, they should nerf our auto-attack damage and increase the damage from our abilities, putting more effort into Dirge CA and Troub spell damage so that both classes thrive best in groups they usually get put in.

Kunaak

10-08-2009, 04:06 PM

since starting this topic, I have leveled up my own troub.got a fast crash course on how to group as a troub (reply to activate Jcap on those wanting it and so on) trying my best to get the best AA set up I am happy with, while maximizing group potential. I see group DPS far more important then my own. but that doesnt mean I enjoy being so low on the parse either....currently, I have my epic weapon, marrow song for off hand, 4 T3 pieces, 2 T4 pieces, and a good selection of jewelry. about 1/4th masterd, all rest expert skills. 172 AA.parsing about 2k reliably, 3 to 3.5k in raid.any DPS potential I have is constantly interupted Capping people, or casting PotM. but I still try my best.I know my mythical should help alot, when I get around to it, but for now I am gonna complete the sig quest for my drum and cloak since I can get that done easy.overall, I would have to say, I think the simplest and best way to just give a nudge to the bard classes, is simply to give them stances...just like all other scouts have... healers have... tanks have.oh, and a quick reply macro "quit asking for UT - your DPS sucks - I am not putting it on you till you parse more then 2k".

Kulaf

10-08-2009, 10:36 PM

<cite>Backpayne@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>After reading this entire thread twice (first time dumbfounded me so much I had to make sure I read it right) I can't help but ask...Bards/enchanters already get 8 spots out of 24 in every raid. They buff everyones dps so they can maximize their dps...and now you're asking to get a dps boost?We have a dirge in our raid force that does 10k dps. We have a troub parsing out 8k pretty regularly. We have an illy parsing 25k and a coercer doing 14-16k. Utility classes are just that, utility. When you made the choice to play a utility class, you accepted that your PRIMARY role is to buff everyone else and increase their dps. If you're so concerned about parsing out the top numbers, play a dps class.ORYou sacrifice half your utility to other dps classes like so they can still be considered for raid spots. Take a look at brigands, we're losing half our buffs to summoners so they can be more desireable in raids. A conjurer that I know parses 25k on multi-mob encounters and 16-18k on single target. One of the best brigs game-wide parses 19k but we're still losing some of our debuffs to a higher parsing class. Why? Too many poor players can give ANY class a horrible name. It should be pretty obvious but, if you've missed the point, I'll spell it out for ya. Just because YOU are not parsing in the higher numbers, it doesn't mean the class itself is not capable of it. I'm not keen on the whole mentality of telling people to L2Play their class and all that jazz BUT... if you're going to beg and plead to be a dps class, make sure you are ready to give something up. You should know by now that nothing is given without something being taken. If you want more dps, you WILL lose some of the utility.Consider the upcoming changes that are being discussed. Some bard buffs are supposedly going raid-wide. This means that the demand is going to go down to some degree depending on how its handled. If that change goes live, chances are some of you are going to be out of the raid force so they can pull another dps class in.Just throwing something out there to think about. I'm not directing any of this at a single person or class, just stating that maybe the fault is not with the mechanics of a given class.</blockquote>Ok let's look at this. First of all I dispute your claim that Bards and Chanters command 8 spots in raids based solely on their DPS. This is a pheonomena of TSO because so many raid mobs drain power. If SOE decides to lower the need for power regen then the "need" for Bards and Enchanters would naturally diminish. Secondly DPS is based mostly on gear. Sure you have Bards that DPS at X rate in your guild.....but it is totally relative and your Bards aren't parsing percentage wise any better than lesser geared Bards parse compared to other DPS classes in their respective guilds.Thirdly, if you read this thread......twice, then you should know that we were discussing group and solo DPS......not raid. I doubt anyone is going to claim that Troubs solo well.....we are even below some priest classes.

eqaddictedfool

10-10-2009, 01:08 AM

Being both dirge and troub at lvl 80. I'm happy as a clam with their dps output. Sure im no assassin but i dont deserve to be.

Backpayne

10-12-2009, 08:08 AM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Backpayne@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>After reading this entire thread twice (first time dumbfounded me so much I had to make sure I read it right) I can't help but ask...Bards/enchanters already get 8 spots out of 24 in every raid. They buff everyones dps so they can maximize their dps...and now you're asking to get a dps boost?We have a dirge in our raid force that does 10k dps. We have a troub parsing out 8k pretty regularly. We have an illy parsing 25k and a coercer doing 14-16k. Utility classes are just that, utility. When you made the choice to play a utility class, you accepted that your PRIMARY role is to buff everyone else and increase their dps. If you're so concerned about parsing out the top numbers, play a dps class.ORYou sacrifice half your utility to other dps classes like so they can still be considered for raid spots. Take a look at brigands, we're losing half our buffs to summoners so they can be more desireable in raids. A conjurer that I know parses 25k on multi-mob encounters and 16-18k on single target. One of the best brigs game-wide parses 19k but we're still losing some of our debuffs to a higher parsing class. Why? Too many poor players can give ANY class a horrible name. It should be pretty obvious but, if you've missed the point, I'll spell it out for ya. Just because YOU are not parsing in the higher numbers, it doesn't mean the class itself is not capable of it. I'm not keen on the whole mentality of telling people to L2Play their class and all that jazz BUT... if you're going to beg and plead to be a dps class, make sure you are ready to give something up. You should know by now that nothing is given without something being taken. If you want more dps, you WILL lose some of the utility.Consider the upcoming changes that are being discussed. Some bard buffs are supposedly going raid-wide. This means that the demand is going to go down to some degree depending on how its handled. If that change goes live, chances are some of you are going to be out of the raid force so they can pull another dps class in.Just throwing something out there to think about. I'm not directing any of this at a single person or class, just stating that maybe the fault is not with the mechanics of a given class.</blockquote>Ok let's look at this. First of all I dispute your claim that Bards and Chanters command 8 spots in raids based solely on their DPS. This is a pheonomena of TSO because so many raid mobs drain power. If SOE decides to lower the need for power regen then the "need" for Bards and Enchanters would naturally diminish. Secondly DPS is based mostly on gear. Sure you have Bards that DPS at X rate in your guild.....but it is totally relative and your Bards aren't parsing percentage wise any better than lesser geared Bards parse compared to other DPS classes in their respective guilds.Thirdly, if you read this thread......twice, then you should know that we were discussing group and solo DPS......not raid. I doubt anyone is going to claim that Troubs solo well.....we are even below some priest classes.</blockquote>First, it has nothing to do with power drain etc on a given mob. The demand for the raid spots has nothing to do with THEIR dps, learn to read k thx. What I said, and I'm going to repeat it just for you, is that because of the utility they bring to a raid they get 8 of the 24 spots. Any decent raid guild is running bard+enchanter in every group. MT group - coercer+dirge, OT group - same, the two dps groups - illy+troub. So, with that said, I'll instead ignore your statement while you reread my post. I made sure to make it BOLD and UNDERLINED so it was easier to find without straining yourself.Secondly, the dps is still relative to the rest of the group and length of the fight. I have an 80 dirge, 80 illy, 80 brig, and 80 templar. The templar takes at least 90sec to drop an even con nonheroic mob using a dps spec. Using the "cookie cutter" dirge spec that you can find almost anywhere, my dirge can drop that same mob in about 8sec. Defilers have even lower dps than a templar. My brig can put out more dps than my dirge but that SHOULD be the case. Regardless of guild affiliation, I've seen bards in T2 shard armor with fabled epics still put up 5-6k parses which is still 3-4 times higher than my templar can put out. With that said, there are templars out there that can easily do higher dps. The point I'm making is honestly quite simple - dps is also relative to skill at the given class not just gear. Yes, gear does make a difference but skill is the real factor that determines if the player of a given class can use that gear to its maximum potential. If you are parsing lower than another person of the same class - ask them their casting order, AA spec, what stats/effects they are focusing on, etc. Just because one person can't dps with the class, doesn't mean its broken. On the same note, just because a given individual can crank out double the dps as another using the same class/gear/spell or CA quality, doesn't mean that class is overpowered.Third on your list was stating the conversation was about group/solo dps. Again, I can parse 3-4k with my dirge solo and he has mostly adept spells (not Adept 3's, just Adept 1's - if you go with the old names - or Adept not Expert for the new). In groups it honestly depends on the length of the fight. Some fights I parse higher, some lower as it honestly depends on dot duration and if they have a chance to proc the final tick which is typically a larger hit than the initial or damage per tick rate. I sat and watched a troub solo an 83^^^ heroic the other night in Chardok. Changing the casting order and how you perceive a given encounter can and does make a huge difference. If you're not soloing effectively, change how you are doing things. For example, using the troub from above, I watched him mez the mob repeatedly while he was fighting it. Not what I'd consider the first strategy to come to mind for killing a given mob but it worked.Lastly, if you are going to quote someone and try to argue a point of view... make sure you have read and understood exactly what was said before trying to pick apart their statements. A classes dps being solely dependant on gear is about as absurd as claiming that the 8 spots in a raid for bards/enchanters is simply for their power regen. Both archetypes also bring a ton of buffs to a given group that increase dps. With dirges - they have the dps mod, str/agi, dead calm, battle cry, and Cacophany of Blades. For troubs - aria, dehate for nonfighters, increase to disruption etc, haste, str/sta, JCap, Upbeat tempo, etc. Both bards can have fortissimo in their AA spec as well as Don't Kill the Messenger. Illy - haste, synergism, Illusory Arm, mythical adds more DA. Coercer - dps mob, superior power regen, dehate for single targets, hate transfer/gain for the MT/OT, etc. Both enchanters can also have Peace of Mind in their AA spec. Simply put - claiming a bard/enchanter is only there for power regen is worthy of a good laugh at best. Putting both in a group is common sense when you are trying to maximize dps potential.

Kulaf

10-12-2009, 01:58 PM

<cite>Backpayne@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>First, it has nothing to do with power drain etc on a given mob. The demand for the raid spots has nothing to do with THEIR dps, learn to read k thx. What I said, and I'm going to repeat it just for you, is that because of the utility they bring to a raid they get 8 of the 24 spots. Any decent raid guild is running bard+enchanter in every group. MT group - coercer+dirge, OT group - same, the two dps groups - illy+troub. So, with that said, I'll instead ignore your statement while you reread my post. I made sure to make it BOLD and UNDERLINED so it was easier to find without straining yourself.Secondly, the dps is still relative to the rest of the group and length of the fight. I have an 80 dirge, 80 illy, 80 brig, and 80 templar. The templar takes at least 90sec to drop an even con nonheroic mob using a dps spec. Using the "cookie cutter" dirge spec that you can find almost anywhere, my dirge can drop that same mob in about 8sec. Defilers have even lower dps than a templar. My brig can put out more dps than my dirge but that SHOULD be the case. Regardless of guild affiliation, I've seen bards in T2 shard armor with fabled epics still put up 5-6k parses which is still 3-4 times higher than my templar can put out. With that said, there are templars out there that can easily do higher dps. The point I'm making is honestly quite simple - dps is also relative to skill at the given class not just gear. Yes, gear does make a difference but skill is the real factor that determines if the player of a given class can use that gear to its maximum potential. If you are parsing lower than another person of the same class - ask them their casting order, AA spec, what stats/effects they are focusing on, etc. Just because one person can't dps with the class, doesn't mean its broken. On the same note, just because a given individual can crank out double the dps as another using the same class/gear/spell or CA quality, doesn't mean that class is overpowered.Third on your list was stating the conversation was about group/solo dps. Again, I can parse 3-4k with my dirge solo and he has mostly adept spells (not Adept 3's, just Adept 1's - if you go with the old names - or Adept not Expert for the new). In groups it honestly depends on the length of the fight. Some fights I parse higher, some lower as it honestly depends on dot duration and if they have a chance to proc the final tick which is typically a larger hit than the initial or damage per tick rate. I sat and watched a troub solo an 83^^^ heroic the other night in Chardok. Changing the casting order and how you perceive a given encounter can and does make a huge difference. If you're not soloing effectively, change how you are doing things. For example, using the troub from above, I watched him mez the mob repeatedly while he was fighting it. Not what I'd consider the first strategy to come to mind for killing a given mob but it worked.Lastly, if you are going to quote someone and try to argue a point of view... make sure you have read and understood exactly what was said before trying to pick apart their statements. A classes dps being solely dependant on gear is about as absurd as claiming that the 8 spots in a raid for bards/enchanters is simply for their power regen. Both archetypes also bring a ton of buffs to a given group that increase dps. With dirges - they have the dps mod, str/agi, dead calm, battle cry, and Cacophany of Blades. For troubs - aria, dehate for nonfighters, increase to disruption etc, haste, str/sta, JCap, Upbeat tempo, etc. Both bards can have fortissimo in their AA spec as well as Don't Kill the Messenger. Illy - haste, synergism, Illusory Arm, mythical adds more DA. Coercer - dps mob, superior power regen, dehate for single targets, hate transfer/gain for the MT/OT, etc. Both enchanters can also have Peace of Mind in their AA spec. Simply put - claiming a bard/enchanter is only there for power regen is worthy of a good laugh at best. Putting both in a group is common sense when you are trying to maximize dps potential.</blockquote>And why do you need an Enchanter in every group? Because of their ability to keep a group full on power so you don't wipe to encounters like Anashti Sul, or lose your DPS to encounters like Zarrakon. TSO has more power draining encounters than any previous expansion. And if it is their ability to boost DPS.....then that is on a diminishing scale of returns so why not boost Troub DPS? No matter how much you boost it it won't change the fact they they still bring a lot to raidwide DPS, nor will it make you want to drop a Wizard for a 3rd Troub.DPS is relative to skill......well or course it is. But gear more than anything else determines your DPS. So when you come into this thread spouting how much player X or player Y is doing with their Troub/whatever you need to provide context. Ballads is probably the highest parsing/best geared Troub in the game IMO. If you ask him what he parses it will sound rather rediculous coming from a Troub......but then ask him what every other class in his guild is parsing and look at his percentage of the total raids DPS output and I think you will find a heavy corelation between differently geared Bards in their lower tiered guilds. Not taking away anything from Ballads but once you are raiding top tier instanced content or contested, you have a pretty good handle on how to play your toon.This post started from the OP stating he was losing group mates who were Troubs because when they weren't raiding they played other classes.......or some of them just left the game. Playing a Troub in a group can sometimes be frustrating because CC in this game is basically non-existant so our CC abilities are worthless. So it's all about the bling of being on the DPS list and in most groups we are just north of the healer. And with respect to soloing. Yeah you solo great now......how many months after the level cap was raised in Kunark? When I stepped off the boat in Kunark even in all fabled gear I got a rather rude awakening from how hard the MOB's were hitting. I expect the same to happen when SF launches. I fail to see how an offensive/defensive stance wouldn't be a good thing for Dirges and Troubs since every other Scout class has them.Finally if you want to try to pick apart my posts be consistant. You say Troubs/Dirges/Illys/Coer command spots for their raid buffing abilities......this is true. But they are right now at their max spots wise, and adding more would accomplish nothing. Therefore using this as an agruement against raising Troub DPS is moot. If raid leaders wouldn't add a third Troub now.....adding 1 or 2k to their total DPS surely isn't going to make a bit of difference, so your arguement there was absurd. Finally if you factor in the proposed changes there are already going to be spots opening up on raids as there should be no reason to have more than 1 of each of the buffing classes on a raid (providing SOE does it right), so why not bring them more in line with the damage output of other classes.

Kulaf

10-12-2009, 02:13 PM

"I sat and watched a troub solo an 83^^^ heroic the other night in Chardok. Changing the casting order and how you perceive a given encounter can and does make a huge difference. If you're not soloing effectively, change how you are doing things. For example, using the troub from above, I watched him mez the mob repeatedly while he was fighting it. Not what I'd consider the first strategy to come to mind for killing a given mob but it worked."I wanted to address this seperatly. There are only two ways for a Troub to solo a heroic of same or greater level. Mezing or kiting. That's it. I solo'd the named in Shard of Love after mentoring the zone down to 70. Tried straight up fighting them but the casters just burned me down as I didn't have enough interrupt abilities to keep them from casting. This also meant kiting was useless because they would burn me down from range. Now the Swashy in my guild regularly goes in and spanks this zone in less than an hour. It took me three hours to mez kill the named in the zone. And if they would have been immune to mez it would have been hopeless.

Nameliss

10-13-2009, 02:28 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Backpayne@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>First, it has nothing to do with power drain etc on a given mob. The demand for the raid spots has nothing to do with THEIR dps, learn to read k thx. What I said, and I'm going to repeat it just for you, is that because of the utility they bring to a raid they get 8 of the 24 spots. Any decent raid guild is running bard+enchanter in every group. MT group - coercer+dirge, OT group - same, the two dps groups - illy+troub. So, with that said, I'll instead ignore your statement while you reread my post. I made sure to make it BOLD and UNDERLINED so it was easier to find without straining yourself.Secondly, the dps is still relative to the rest of the group and length of the fight. I have an 80 dirge, 80 illy, 80 brig, and 80 templar. The templar takes at least 90sec to drop an even con nonheroic mob using a dps spec. Using the "cookie cutter" dirge spec that you can find almost anywhere, my dirge can drop that same mob in about 8sec. Defilers have even lower dps than a templar. My brig can put out more dps than my dirge but that SHOULD be the case. Regardless of guild affiliation, I've seen bards in T2 shard armor with fabled epics still put up 5-6k parses which is still 3-4 times higher than my templar can put out. With that said, there are templars out there that can easily do higher dps. The point I'm making is honestly quite simple - dps is also relative to skill at the given class not just gear. Yes, gear does make a difference but skill is the real factor that determines if the player of a given class can use that gear to its maximum potential. If you are parsing lower than another person of the same class - ask them their casting order, AA spec, what stats/effects they are focusing on, etc. Just because one person can't dps with the class, doesn't mean its broken. On the same note, just because a given individual can crank out double the dps as another using the same class/gear/spell or CA quality, doesn't mean that class is overpowered.Third on your list was stating the conversation was about group/solo dps. Again, I can parse 3-4k with my dirge solo and he has mostly adept spells (not Adept 3's, just Adept 1's - if you go with the old names - or Adept not Expert for the new). In groups it honestly depends on the length of the fight. Some fights I parse higher, some lower as it honestly depends on dot duration and if they have a chance to proc the final tick which is typically a larger hit than the initial or damage per tick rate. I sat and watched a troub solo an 83^^^ heroic the other night in Chardok. Changing the casting order and how you perceive a given encounter can and does make a huge difference. If you're not soloing effectively, change how you are doing things. For example, using the troub from above, I watched him mez the mob repeatedly while he was fighting it. Not what I'd consider the first strategy to come to mind for killing a given mob but it worked.Lastly, if you are going to quote someone and try to argue a point of view... make sure you have read and understood exactly what was said before trying to pick apart their statements. A classes dps being solely dependant on gear is about as absurd as claiming that the 8 spots in a raid for bards/enchanters is simply for their power regen. Both archetypes also bring a ton of buffs to a given group that increase dps. With dirges - they have the dps mod, str/agi, dead calm, battle cry, and Cacophany of Blades. For troubs - aria, dehate for nonfighters, increase to disruption etc, haste, str/sta, JCap, Upbeat tempo, etc. Both bards can have fortissimo in their AA spec as well as Don't Kill the Messenger. Illy - haste, synergism, Illusory Arm, mythical adds more DA. Coercer - dps mob, superior power regen, dehate for single targets, hate transfer/gain for the MT/OT, etc. Both enchanters can also have Peace of Mind in their AA spec. Simply put - claiming a bard/enchanter is only there for power regen is worthy of a good laugh at best. Putting both in a group is common sense when you are trying to maximize dps potential.</blockquote>And why do you need an Enchanter in every group? Because of their ability to keep a group full on power so you don't wipe to encounters like Anashti Sul, or lose your DPS to encounters like Zarrakon. TSO has more power draining encounters than any previous expansion. And if it is their ability to boost DPS.....then that is on a diminishing scale of returns so why not boost Troub DPS? No matter how much you boost it it won't change the fact they they still bring a lot to raidwide DPS, nor will it make you want to drop a Wizard for a 3rd Troub.DPS is relative to skill......well or course it is. But gear more than anything else determines your DPS. So when you come into this thread spouting how much player X or player Y is doing with their Troub/whatever you need to provide context. Ballads is probably the highest parsing/best geared Troub in the game IMO. If you ask him what he parses it will sound rather rediculous coming from a Troub......but then ask him what every other class in his guild is parsing and look at his percentage of the total raids DPS output and I think you will find a heavy corelation between differently geared Bards in their lower tiered guilds. Not taking away anything from Ballads but once you are raiding top tier instanced content or contested, you have a pretty good handle on how to play your toon.This post started from the OP stating he was losing group mates who were Troubs because when they weren't raiding they played other classes.......or some of them just left the game. Playing a Troub in a group can sometimes be frustrating because CC in this game is basically non-existant so our CC abilities are worthless. So it's all about the bling of being on the DPS list and in most groups we are just north of the healer. And with respect to soloing. Yeah you solo great now......how many months after the level cap was raised in Kunark? When I stepped off the boat in Kunark even in all fabled gear I got a rather rude awakening from how hard the MOB's were hitting. I expect the same to happen when SF launches. I fail to see how an offensive/defensive stance wouldn't be a good thing for Dirges and Troubs since every other Scout class has them.Finally if you want to try to pick apart my posts be consistant. You say Troubs/Dirges/Illys/Coer command spots for their raid buffing abilities......this is true. But they are right now at their max spots wise, and adding more would accomplish nothing. Therefore using this as an agruement against raising Troub DPS is moot. If raid leaders wouldn't add a third Troub now.....adding 1 or 2k to their total DPS surely isn't going to make a bit of difference, so your arguement there was absurd. Finally if you factor in the proposed changes there are already going to be spots opening up on raids as there should be no reason to have more than 1 of each of the buffing classes on a raid (providing SOE does it right), so why not bring them more in line with the damage output of other classes.</blockquote>I've heard that statement from just about every class when Kunark was released. So that really has no significance when arguing about a classes soloability in relaton to all other classes. everyone pretty much got the smack down from these mobs, even the best solo classes.that said, I'm all for more DPS on my dirge. He solos 'solo' content just fine, but he can't solo named/heroic content as quickly, or even at all, that some of my other alts can. I see no reason to hold them back when soloing if the Devs are going to insist on making us solo quest to level efficiently.

Davngr1

10-18-2009, 03:35 AM

my troub was in perfec balance in KoS( yes T5 was a bit out of wack) then out of no where they cut his balls off for nothing other then because some terribad wizards felt troubs shouldn't be able to do ANY dps at all... further more taking their charm away( cos troubs don't have a charm anymore..) and making their mez practicly uselss was completely uncalled for. why did this happend? because chanters where supose to be the only mezzers/charmers? well guess what peace of mind? that's a troub proc! so please give troubs their charm and mezz spells back so i can once again enjoy soloing some quest with my trubador.

Kulaf

10-18-2009, 06:09 PM

Our charm and mez work perfectly fine for soloing/grouping. They work great if you put some AA points in the abilities that boost their duration. Where they fall on their face is their usefulness on Raids. Since we cannot mez x2 raid mobs our mez is useless. My hope is that since they seem to be going to revive crowd control in SF that we get some love too.I'm still waiting for them to revamp our two power drains like they did for the Enchanters.

Davngr1

10-18-2009, 09:54 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Our charm and mez work perfectly fine for soloing/grouping. They work great if you put some AA points in the abilities that boost their duration. Where they fall on their face is their usefulness on Raids. Since we cannot mez x2 raid mobs our mez is useless. My hope is that since they seem to be going to revive crowd control in SF that we get some love too.I'm still waiting for them to revamp our two power drains like they did for the Enchanters.</blockquote> heh.. you wouldn't say that if you had been playing a troub from the DoF days like i have been. the charm and mez are indeed useless.

Kulaf

10-19-2009, 11:55 AM

Well my character was created Nov 9, 2004. Was that before DoF? Ya know.....I think it was.

Davngr1

10-20-2009, 01:26 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well my character was created Nov 9, 2004. Was that before DoF? Ya know.....I think it was.</blockquote>so you think nerfing a charm from around 10 minutes to 30 seconds and changing the mez from(me) being able to hold 4 mobs with ease to barely being able to hold 2 mobs(one resist from death) work perfectly? your words "charm and mez work perfectly fine for soloing/grouping." sorry man.. seems you have forgotten what troubs lost or maybe you just never used the class to it's fullest potential back then.

Kulaf

10-20-2009, 03:42 PM

Not that I am calling you a liar or anything but:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=227651">Davngr1</a> Loremaster Joined: Nov 19, 2005<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=416400">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=416400</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=416400"></a>"my main is a necromancer. he was my first toon and my funnest, i learned the game with him."My preorder for DoF was 8/26/05 and my transaction for DoF was finalized on 9/17/05 two months before you created your account. So please just quit now while you are behind.

Kulaf

10-20-2009, 04:44 PM

Giving you the benefit of what little doubt there seems to be.....that you managed to level two toons simultaneously and got your Troub to level 40+ prior to KoS launching let me tell you what I remember about mez and charm from those days:Charm had a short duration......could break before it's max duration on its own, and also would break if your charmed target took any damage at all.Mez usually lasted it's full duration but unless you had some hellacious in-combat power regen......which pretty much required a prismatic to get to, you would slowly run out of power if you tried to use it to solo a group mob (which were TONS easier to solo back then).All in all for soloing and grouping I stand by my statement that they work fairly well for what they are worth. But who honestly mez's anything when grouped other than some select encounters like in Maidens? No one.

Davngr1

10-20-2009, 06:17 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not that I am calling you a liar or anything but:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=227651">Davngr1</a> Loremaster Joined: Nov 19, 2005<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=416400">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=416400</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=416400"></a>"my main is a necromancer. he was my first toon and my funnest, i learned the game with him."My preorder for DoF was 8/26/05 and my transaction for DoF was finalized on 9/17/05 two months before you created your account. So please just quit now while you are behind.</blockquote> lol behind? the troub class is behind and you're here saying that the nerfs to the class where not exesive? btw i played my youngers brothers account for a few months and then transferd my toons over.<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Giving you the benefit of what little doubt there seems to be.....that you managed to level two toons simultaneously and got your Troub to level 40+ prior to KoS launching let me tell you what I remember about mez and charm from those days:Charm had a short duration......could break before it's max duration on its own, and also would break if your charmed target took any damage at all.Mez usually lasted it's full duration but unless you had some hellacious in-combat power regen......which pretty much required a prismatic to get to, you would slowly run out of power if you tried to use it to solo a group mob (which were TONS easier to solo back then).All in all for soloing and grouping I stand by my statement that they work fairly well for what they are worth. But who honestly mez's anything when grouped other than some select encounters like in Maidens? No one.</blockquote> charm worked well for soloing(as well as any charmed mob could) and mez worked better then it does now, no clue what encounters you're talking about but i use to pull off the kos instance in bonmire where you had to mez 4 mobs and kill them at the same time with out any issues. either way i was just posting my thoughts on the class and how i feel they need their pre-kos nerf mechanics back.

Lethe5683

11-30-2009, 08:03 PM

Bards don't need better DPS, the parse needs to stop being worshipped. It's a terribly useless measure of value of any class that is not purely DPS. If the parse counted how much increase each person parsed because of the bard buffs they would out DPS any class in the raid most likley.

Aaramis

12-01-2009, 11:29 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards don't need better DPS, the parse needs to stop being worshipped. It's a terribly useless measure of value of any class that is not purely DPS. If the parse counted how much increase each person parsed because of the bard buffs they would out DPS any class in the raid most likley.</blockquote>Yep, I think that's the crux of the issue here. People in EQ2 are the most parse-happy gamers I've ever come across. It's really bizarre. In no other MMO that I've ever played, including EQ1, were people all that concerned about their dps - because they all had a job to do, and to work as a team, and without that sort of teamwork dps meant absolutely nothing at all.But here? Hell, people will boot you from a pickup group if they don't feel your dps is top-notch. It can be terribly elitist.That said, back to the OP regarding dps. I play both an Assassin and a Troubadour (and a Conjuror, hah). So I know these issues very well. And you are 100% correct - the Troub will never compete in the same category as the Assassin. But I think the biggest issue isn't dps, it's defense (or, to put it another way, they're intrisically related).Against some harder-hitting mobs ingame, you simply can't stand toe-to-toe with them. Even if you're defensive specced so as to avoid half the incoming attacks, those that do get through will still kill you pretty quickly. Whereas the Predators can take down these mobs fairly quickly with their high-dps attacks (or via kiting if Ranger), and the Rogues can avoid damage via stuns, AA abilities, and the like, the Bard can't do much about it except kite or mez. As noted above, it's *possible* for, say, a Troub to solo a ^^^ heroic. It's just really dicey at times, and takes forever because you need to mez a lot (whereas an Assassin, for example, can throw out an 18k opening assassinate followed by cheap shot-> 10-12k mortal blade in the span of 3 seconds).Thankfully, auto-attack damage (and some of the new TSO AAs such as Intoxicating Notes) seem to be improving Bard damage noticeably. Not sure if that's a positive thing, as it makes some of their spell-based attacks weak in comparison, but at least they're slowly climbing the ladder. But I wouldn't complain if Bards got either stances, access to poisons, or even a nice hard-hitting shout useable, say, once every 3-5min. It would make their soloing life so much easier, as well as helping to improve their parses in groups/raids.*edit* - *or*, the other option, would be to improve defense on Scouts (or at least on Bards) so that it's not as important to take a monster down *ASAP* and so that they can take a few hits. This would be more of an impact for soloing than grouping/raiding, however, so the almighty parse wouldn't improve at all. But it would mean more toe-to-toe fighting and less kiting. In EQ1, for example, Bards could wear plate. That might not be a bad change to EQ2.

Morghus

12-01-2009, 11:58 AM

<cite>Aaramis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards don't need better DPS, the parse needs to stop being worshipped. It's a terribly useless measure of value of any class that is not purely DPS. If the parse counted how much increase each person parsed because of the bard buffs they would out DPS any class in the raid most likley.</blockquote>Yep, I think that's the crux of the issue here. People in EQ2 are the most parse-happy gamers I've ever come across. It's really bizarre. In no other MMO that I've ever played, including EQ1, were people all that concerned about their dps - because they all had a job to do, and to work as a team, and without that sort of teamwork dps meant absolutely nothing at all.</blockquote>It likely stems from a poor conceived notion of needing more dps falling from the raiding players and carrying over to heroic players, when aside from a few exceptions isnt really needed in heroic content. In raids, especially TSO raids, every single little bit of extra dps helps to make things easier and at the upper end of the difficult encounters, even possible at all.The harder encounters have alot of different effects to mess up the raids dps output, making every little bit count. I have yet to see heroic bosses that:Periodically strip all debuffs from themselfTarget lock/Target remove people so they cant do anythingStun/stifle/no hostile spellsPut debuffs on people that lower their damage to 1De-level playersrepeatedly spawn groups of adds that take the dpsers attention away from the main enemychance to knockback/stun whenever enemy takes damageetcI know that in my guild at least, which is hardly an actual 'hard-core' guild that the bards are required to parse at least 4k+ on named fights unless for w/ever reason they get screwed over on a fight or two.As far as raiding goes though, I would say the priority of what you do as a bard is: 1 buff, 2 debuff, 3 stay alive, 4 dps. Aside from that what else IS there to even do really? They aren't there to be ornamental, or to look pretty, or to afk buffbot. Bards are still scouts after all, and doing all of those things is part of their role.

Lethe5683

12-01-2009, 11:09 PM

<cite>Aaramis wrote:</cite><blockquote>...the other option, would be to improve defense on Scouts (or at least on Bards) so that it's not as important to take a monster down *ASAP* and so that they can take a few hits. This would be more of an impact for soloing than grouping/raiding, however, so the almighty parse wouldn't improve at all. But it would mean more toe-to-toe fighting and less kiting. In EQ1, for example, Bards could wear plate. That might not be a bad change to EQ2.</blockquote>It's already rediculous enough that scouts wear chain, plate would be purly absurd and really wouldn't help bards to solo much if at all. Scouts defense is fine and loosing avoidance for mit is only beneficial for survivability vs mobs that are heroic/epic or significantly higher level than the player. I think simply changing the way dirge self heals work to be a % of hp rather than a fixed amount and giving troubs something similar would be more than enough to help their solo ability.

Aaramis

12-02-2009, 10:17 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's already rediculous enough that scouts wear chain, plate would be purly absurd and really wouldn't help bards to solo much if at all. Scouts defense is fine and loosing avoidance for mit is only beneficial for survivability vs mobs that are heroic/epic or significantly higher level than the player. I think simply changing the way dirge self heals work to be a % of hp rather than a fixed amount and giving troubs something similar would be more than enough to help their solo ability.</blockquote>/shrug, just throwing out ideas here. Bards got by just fine in EQ1 in plate, and could end up with some amazing AC at end-game if outfitted properly. But yes, there are plenty of ways to adjust Bards, and there needn't be a huge change. Fixing self-heals for Dirges, for example, is one example. Changing the way Dirge Fear line and Troub Charm line works, is another example - that could add amazing utility if they were actually useful (and yes, I realize the Charm ability is marginally useful for solo pulling - but that's about it, really. Nothing like the good old days of EQ1.)Like I said, plenty of ways to improve Bards. Thing is, people have been suggesting ideas for the past several years, and I have yet to see any of those ideas come to pass :/

Eritius

01-11-2010, 11:03 AM

I don't have a parse to prove this, but I know when my ranger groups with my friend's dirge, the damage output that we do together is the same as if we added in another ranger or other scout. He doesn't do as much damage as I do, but his damage plus the extra damage I have for him being in the group is enough to equal 2 rangers.

Besual

01-12-2010, 04:47 AM

<cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip>The harder encounters have alot of different effects to mess up the raids dps output, making every little bit count. I have yet to see heroic bosses that:Periodically strip all debuffs from themselfTarget lock/Target remove people so they cant do anythingStun/stifle/no hostile spellsPut debuffs on people that lower their damage to 1De-level playersrepeatedly spawn groups of adds that take the dpsers attention away from the main enemychance to knockback/stun whenever enemy takes damageetc<snip></blockquote>Have you played EQ2 since EoF? At least 5 of your listed effects you can find on heroic mobs already.Oh, and try to solo as a defiler before you complain about bard solo DPS. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Krooner

02-05-2010, 06:35 PM

Bard DPS is just fine. Its not push button like some classes so we have to really work at it. I dont have a problem with that. I play my dirge like the class hes suppose to be Utility. I have no problem parsin 6-7K even with multiple Rezzes. And thats in group content or raid. Even that DPS is mediocre compaired to a few fellow Dirges I have played with.We dont need Plate. We dont need a combat or spell art overhaul, We dont even really need fast casting.You just need to get out there and get creative. if you feel you need to cast a little faster get the hand of the Meistro.Since the NDA is lifted for SOF I can say get yourself a raid adorn with faster casting time. Even some of the new master crafted have line7% to casting speed.

Ristan

02-09-2010, 01:34 PM

Troubs have their issues, as do dirges, but troubs more for the most part.The reason I think people stop playing bards well is quite simple, they are a tough class to play. Someone said it earlier you really have to be of the mind set to play one.I started the game as a zerker, when they broke them so long ago, I switched to ranger...can you see a pattern here? When they broke rangers, I switched to necro...and then my guild needed a troub to raid with last year so I speed leveled one up in oct 08. And I found the class for me, I love my troub, and i will never stop playing it. However, the issues that some folks have:Troubs dont solo well. They are almost as squishy as their mage counter parts.Troubs don't dps top end. They can dps well but your never going to be a wizard/assassin. My heighest parse todate is 6700. I average 5-6k in most raids.Troubs rely heavily on player skill to play well...but no one notices, cause if you do badly you are just a buff bot.Really the mentality of any bard, should be "I do this stuff for my group so they can dps better". I have a ususal group of casters, we work through our rotation, heck some of the casters even bought my masters for PotM and Aria of magic to up THEIR dps...was sorta a joke. sorta.But really you have to have fun with a class, and I'm sorry to see that so many people dislike bards for one reason or another, but I really don't think they need a class overhaul. They have issues to be sure, especially in SF aas, but they don't need to be uber dps.<img src="http://kyrainetheranger.tripod.com/starsiggirl.gif" width="432" height="130" />

Aaramis

02-10-2010, 03:51 PM

Star, keep in mind that your char is in T3/T4 TSO gear with mythical epic. Not every Troub out there has that kind of gear. Most are in T1/2 TSO gear with fabled epic.So if you're struggling to top 6k in a parse, and only average 5-6k, imagine what the rest parse at. 2-4k on average.Considering the other Scouts generally parse between 10 and 20+ k, depending on gear, buffs, etc., that's a HUGE difference. So yeah, I can see why some Troubs hang up their lutes. It's frustrating. Especially when some of the things Troubs have asked for now for several *years* still haven't been addressed, I can see why some betray to Dirge and/or reroll.

Morgane

02-11-2010, 04:57 PM

Aaramis is on target with my dps parse... I average 2-4k depending on my group setup for the most part.Star, I hope you don't mind, but I looked you up on Players. We don't seem too far apart in gear and I use whetstones for added crit or dbl attack, plus Elixir of Tactics and Fish Magma for some spell dmg boost and I'm nowhere near 5-6k on the parse. I can't help but be envious... what's your secret??? Or (more likely) what am I doing wrong here? We usually roll with a group setup like this on a raid: Troub (me)FuryIlli (I sometimes even get Illusory Arm!)WarlockWizardtank/healer/conjurer (depends)Even with the Illi's IA buff and my various whetstones, elixir's and whatnot, I rarely manage more than 4k on the parse. Our dirge's generally parse around 5-7k so if I could manage 5-6k I'd be pretty happy.

Ristan

02-24-2010, 05:37 PM

With SF alot has changed with my parse, I am parsing closer to the other scouts now, troubs have alot of issues still, and yes, an assassin and brig can out parse us easily...but can they buff their group? do they have much utility? no. You can have alot of dps, or moderate dps and utility, you play a bard, if you want to be a DPS scout then play one. Troubs yes still have their issues, there are alot of things I was dissapointed with this expansion, but the thing the troubs suffer from the most...people not playing this class to it's full potential, but it also takes a certain type of player to play this class, your never going to be top, all you can do is be happy with making your group the top. thats just my 2c.I'm actually in t3/VP gear, I only have one peice of t4 armor and a few peices of tso jewlery, and atm I had to replace most of my raid jewlery for quest gear from SF due to changes from int to agil and my rings and neck becoming casterish and pointless for me. In a group of pally, illy, temp, defiler, troub and dirge (me with IA) I was parsing 8-10k at level 88 in VD conservatory. I will need to learn the new aas and changes to the crits to try to tweak even more out...my average in groups is now around 5-6k. I haven't raided since release so I am unsure of hwo my numbers will be effected there. and yes the other scouts are parsing much higher.For me, I struggled with DPS, until I figured out a cast order and a buff set up.My illy sometimes gives me IA, if there are no other scouts in my group.My raid group:FuryIllyWarlockWiz/Warlock (somtimes brawler sometimes randomness)Necro (now going to be a ranger)Conj/Wiz whatever caster shows upMy cast order:I jcap ususally the illy or tank on the pull, and pop PotM.ususally I'll pop zanders' coral rebuff on the pull too Then I start with my attacks. Starting with Bump-Nightstrike-dancing blade (sinister strike if possible) to get my procs going from my gearThen I hit with my single target (red spells) shrill, tap essence, thunderous overature, then aoe spells painful lamentations, chaos anthemThen my normal melee attacks Sandras, ceremonialI Jcap myself when PotM gets to about 8 seconds on my maintained buff window, so when it expires I have almost full 33 seconds of jesters up for refresh, and I start all over.I do not use a bow unless theres jousing involved. I use my ethernaught drum so I don't add the bow attacks into my order.I hardly ever cast my debuffs other than zanders and our snare sometimes, unless it is a raid mob, or hard hitting heroic, sometimes I'll throw them up if PotM is up and nothing else is.Buffs I normally run: Aria, Allegretto (turn it off sometimes for resists for harder named), Avoidance, Powerballad, Song of magic (turn it off for resists). I ussed to run raxxyls but due to the changes to it I don't any longer. The 3 buffs I always run though are avoidance, aria and powerballad, the others I swap out situationally.My aas should be visable on eq2 players. And I don't use whetstones, etc...too cheep..guess I could start.Biggest thing about dps though I've noticed, is allow your auto attack to go off...time your attacks so that it goes off, and up your Double attack as much as possible. I use Profit UI so I can get the little slider thing that shows me my auto attack.

Nuove

02-24-2010, 10:22 PM

ive seen a lot of parses in parse threads, and it seems a well geared bard gets somethin like 30 - 40% dps JUST from auto attacks.. so definitely time auto attacks, but i wouldnt mind a buff in dps. my highest on a dummy was 5.3k in tso, and i was proud of that lol.. im only in pvp gear, instance (some raid) jewelry, off hand is marrow's song. but back to the OP, i love playing bard because im NOT expected to be high dps. different outlook i guess

Morgane

03-10-2010, 12:32 PM

Thanks for the advice. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I have no asperations to be a top parsing scout... just wanting to make sure I'm living up to my best potential. I would think we'd be more in line with dirge dps but maybe I'm wrong about that. My raid leader mentioned my low DPS and how he's grouped with other Troubie's that have parsed higher so I assumed I was doing something wrong. I've read many threads on casting order and timing CA's, which I do. I'm hovering consistently around 4k now with occasional 5k parses.

FrostDragon

06-10-2010, 11:14 PM

Barding and support is a frame of mind and you see alot of bards made power lvled to raid because people see everyone asking for a bard. barding is not for most people. that being said bards have lower base avoidance that other scouts and ae the only class without stances that I knowalso our DPS has been nerfed in the past in the first year our Lanet's Scream was 20s duration with 2500 damage at termination at tier 4 with a recast. was tricky to use and made us balenced to other scouts but they dropped that damage to a third of its old output and then reworked our avoidance making it much lower. at 86 and 199AA my highest attack is 3k.also in BG Pallys wipe half my buffs with what i think is a melee hit cripples me in combat I cant recast in time I loose 3or 4 buffs that take me 2.61s to recast and selo which is 4.35 to recast and one of those is my"stance jael's" which is 10percent mit and 5 avoidance from a pally debuff.

Keianna

07-14-2010, 09:13 PM

My guild our Troub is continually 16-22k, which I find extremely respectable for a troub. I havent seen a dirge hit that (other than spikes).We arent a high end raiding guild, so I am sure that is low by some standards (monks were talking about their autoattack dmg being 25k+ in monk chat yesterday), but from groups I have seen and the guild, I am impressed with troubs.

Prestissimo

07-16-2010, 04:43 AM

It's because bard gear has turned into a copy paste of rogue gear. The ONLY gear that really is bardy is the raid gear and definately not the T1 versions. Even then, it's a bit less bardlieness than what was obtainable in the past which is even truely more sad since most of that gear really wasn't bardly to begin with other than focus effects.Bards when wearing dps gear can do decent dps. Being a bard is not intended to be about being dps as much as it is about being utility and making OTHER players do more dps. The reason people wanted more dps on bards is because soloing as bards is painful at best, and in order to solo, you need to be able to make the mobs dead; something bards were really not very capable of doing unless stacked with gear. Bards really are mostly "buffs or [Removed for Content]". IMO, bards need to have stances, or at least have a dpsing stance that takes up a few concentration slots and makes their dps much better while active. Bards on raids have turned into mostly "keep up these 4 buffs all the time, and change one based on need, maximize dps for VC, and don't die." and honestly, it's [Removed for Content] me off.I rolled a bard to buff people and bring utility that made a noticeable difference. Theres only a very rare amount of times where people are shouting "GET THAT TROUB!!!!" and thats when it's literally only people that can cast spells and can't do much of anything else. Thats becoming less and less the case however as time passes and people get more SF gear because everything we provide is getting closer and closer to being capped before our buffs are even considered.