Berserker vs Paladin [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Aull

08-20-2009, 03:25 PM

Well paladins are very strong in all catagories. They can do decent st dps once enough aa's are achieved and gear. A paladin can have up to seven or eight aoe abilities that makes them very strong ae contestants.In fact if the zerker is non-mythed then a non-mythed paladin will actually be stronger aoe than the zerker. It will take some lvling and aa ex to get the paladin to that point.Zerkers will have constant trouble with aggro rips from spikey dps classes like sorcerers, mages, predators, and rogues. My zerker even with mythical and no transfers has <a href="mailto:h@#$">h@#$</a> holding aggro off any dps. Zerkers will need some type of hate mods to have any chance with strong dps going crazy.Zerkers only have two blue ae's and one of those is not a true ae but a frontal arch. I did forget insolence it also is an ae threat/damage ability w/ long reuse timer. They also have one long casting encounter only ae that is useless if fighting two or more encounters at . Once in/past the lvl 50 mark zerkers do get two decent aoe abilities called open wounds and destruction. These help but the reuse on these do not allow for consistant ae. So timing will be a focal point when using these. However if a zerker can get the mythcial it does have a nice toggle ability that gives 100% aoe auto attack that makes them awesome for encounter and non encounter fights.All in all I personally think a paladin is far superior to my zerker just for the fact that they can fill so many roles yet they are not overpowered.

Orthureon

08-20-2009, 04:02 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well paladins are very strong in all catagories. They can do decent st dps once enough aa's are achieved and gear. A paladin can have up to seven or eight aoe abilities that makes them very strong ae contestants.In fact if the zerker is non-mythed then a non-mythed paladin will actually be stronger aoe than the zerker. It will take some lvling and aa ex to get the paladin to that point.Zerkers will have constant trouble with aggro rips from spikey dps classes like sorcerers, mages, predators, and rogues. My zerker even with mythical and no transfers has <a href="mailto:h@#$">h@#$</a> holding aggro off any dps. Zerkers will need some type of hate mods to have any chance with strong dps going crazy.Zerkers only have two blue ae's and one of those is not a true ae but a frontal arch. I did forget insolence it also is an ae threat/damage ability w/ long reuse timer. They also have one long casting encounter only ae that is useless if fighting two or more encounters at . Once in/past the lvl 50 mark zerkers do get two decent aoe abilities called open wounds and destruction. These help but the reuse on these do not allow for consistant ae. So timing will be a focal point when using these. However if a zerker can get the mythcial it does have a nice toggle ability that gives 100% aoe auto attack that makes them awesome for encounter and non encounter fights.All in all I personally think a paladin is far superior to my zerker just for the fact that they can fill so many roles yet they are not overpowered.</blockquote>He said it very well, I can't top the parse on named (well maybe once in a great while), encounter fights are won IF I am the only AoE type there. I can stay alive decently well solo, but it takes a while to kill mobs (triple ups). All in all a fun class to play for survivability and EASYMODE tanking. With that said I would have to say Paladins are overpowered in the aggro control department. As all you need to do is throw amends on the top dpser in group and you will very rarely lose aggro.

Aull

08-20-2009, 04:27 PM

I guess I should just say that a paladin is the most versitile fighter. Zerkers are fun too so take my post as zerkers are horrilbe. Zerkers will usually try to tank in offensive just to have any hopes of keeping aggro because zerker hit rates are terrible even while in offensive. If that was fixed (for all fighter while in defensive for that matter) then zerkers could do better at aggro retention.Paladins can go defensive and even with sorry hit rates can still hold aggro well. My friend loves his paladin, but says that the aa choices need revising to get them up to par. Also paladins seem to have better snap aggro tools in times of resurection that can get the aggro back quickly. Zerkers don't have any snap aggro tools other than rescue.Zerkers do have a nice defensive ability in adrenaline (LvL 80 ability) that reduces all incoming damage by 50% for 25-30 secs as long as the zerker is in a berserk state. It drains mana on expiration but it is a huge tool to have for a zerker as long as the zerker has the aggro and is taking the hits.Zerker combat arts are the weakest of the fighters and do not do much for damage so zerker any weapon and auto attack mods will help a zerker. Again if zerker hit rates were better then aggro might not be such a problem as it is now.Paladins can get 68% spell crit with their aa's relatively quick so that is a huge benefit as well.There is more to each of these fighters than what I am listing. So just keep reading and you will learn lots.Good luck.

Kevnan

08-20-2009, 06:05 PM

Believe me .. I have been reading a lot and I just dont know what to do ... lol ... at this point I am even considering changing classes.I have a group of friends coming back to the game. I am trying to think on a good class to fill the last spot.The group is:Paladin - TankTemplar - HealsSwashy - DPSIlly - CCI am trying to figure out what would fill in the last spot. I was mainly thinking on a fighter, but didnt want to make a 2nd pally. I have been reading bad things about casters and I am not really a caster. I do love scouts so it seems dirge is an option here,but I am still trying to understand my role in the group and how to achieve it. I do have a ranger 47, but after 4 year without playing the game .. I better start from anew until I have the hold of the game again. healers?hmm need to read more about DPS warden/fury and shammy. Cuz I would be more a off healer.So in the end I have: Berserker/Monk ; Dirge ; Fury/Warden/ShammyTough decision!

Vulkan_NTooki

08-20-2009, 06:13 PM

Imho.. put a dirge in here and you got a close to perfect group setup.. :p

Aull

08-20-2009, 06:33 PM

Rangers are a fun class, but they have horrible group appeal similar to a bruiser. I am like you that I just do not like playing a caster class. So I would agree that a dirge would be a very nice addition to that group set up.

LygerT

08-21-2009, 02:50 AM

zerkers are easier to solo with imo, pally is better once in group because you don't need to stack it to hold aggro. pally 1 zerk .5

Boli32

08-21-2009, 03:47 AM

<cite>ygerr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>zerkers are easier to solo with imo, pally is better once in group because you don't need to stack it to hold aggro. pally 1 zerk .5</blockquote>Easier and quicker maybe.. but a well geared/played pally can solo much more... it just ain't fast.

SageGaspar

08-25-2009, 06:02 AM

Dunno what you've been hearing bad about casters but it ain't true. In that group though I'd go for either a dirge or a coercer.About berserker versus pally, I like my berserker but I think right now pally is really just a better class in almost every regard. You have a group of friends that wants to run an instance? Awesome, bring em out and toss amends on the highest DPS and you're good to go for the most part. Want to do it on a zerker? If one of them isn't a dirge and you aren't getting significant buffs then you better outplay and outgear the other people or it's aggro pingpong.The nature of amends means a pally can go defensive and not lose that much aggro if you're undergeared or healing is weak or it's a massive pull. Try tanking an instance in defensive on a zerker if you aren't buffed to the teeth. Aggro pingpong.There's also a lot more trade-offs. Zerkers get defensive cooldowns -- they decrease your DPS and snare you. Zerkers get an offensive cooldown -- it lowers your mitigation by 800. Zerkers get an AE taunt that adds a reactive hate proc that's handy on single targets even, the radius is 20m, use it in a tight space and you'll pull the rooms to your left, right, top, and bottom, plus the next door neighbors house. Zerkers get a massive defensive cooldown that also adds aggro -- use it for aggro at the beginning though when you most need it and odds are you don't have it when you could actually use it defensively later on, plus it drains your power by 40% as a handy bonus after it's done. No power regen, you done be screwed.So that's really the difference for me, as a pally if someone asks "hey can you tank XYZ" you go "ya sure, let's do it". As a zerker you ask "well do you guys have a dirge, do you have power regen", etc, etc, and buckle in for a wild ride if they don't. Not to mention the pally's ability to self cure and heal themselves, the latter of which is weak but I have seen it save a group in a pinch. Their DPS is very competitive now. I just do not see the upside to picking a zerker over picking a pally in terms of sheer mechanics.So at this point when it's a choice between me and my pally buddy it's pretty much a no brainer, it's more fun for everyone except me with the pally, so hey.

Maamadex

08-25-2009, 10:00 AM

You want a dirge in that group no matter what.

Yimway

08-25-2009, 06:42 PM

Paladin wins, period.

Costa

09-08-2009, 09:42 AM

I play both a Pally and Zerk and it is fair to say Pally = easymode tanking. I love my zerk to death and as such is my main but group set up is very important for him to stop agro ping pong. Pally will pretty much fit in any group and not have agro issues.From my own personal experience i prefer tanking on my zerk as it is a more fun class to play and rewarding when things are going well because i have a good (not perfect) group setup. Having to work at holding agro is more fun for me than relying on a buff i can put on someone.As for the power issue i find my Pally much more power hungry than my Zerk, although i do have better power regen and proc gear on my Zerk at the moment. As such i personally find i need 1 if nor 2 power regen in group to allow for fast progression through harder zones with a lot of AE content.At then end of the day the choice is really for you. Pally is the easier tank to tank with in groups although rather than Zerk why not Guard? They are the more defensive and better agro machine of the 2 warrior classes.1 final point Zerkers now have 3 new snap agro abilities through TSO and 1 of them is another AE damage/hate position increase. This has made t8 tanking much easier as it takes our total to 5, 3 single target and 2 AE (Insolence has a hate position increase when mythed).

Yimway

09-08-2009, 11:30 AM

<cite>Bazill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote> rather than Zerk why not Guard? They are the more defensive and better agro machine of the 2 warrior classes.</blockquote>No, not really. This might have been true in TSO, but it really isn't true anymore. Guards have more snaps but less sustained agro in most content situations.Survivability with weak aggro control does not make for a satisfying tank to play. Now, if you've got that perfect group setup, little can defeat you. You just might take 2x as long doing it.Stick with Pally / Crusader to pwn aggro, in the end all plate tanks have sufficient survivability for 99% of the content.

RafaelSmith

09-08-2009, 03:35 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bazill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>rather than Zerk why not Guard? They are the more defensive and better agro machine of the 2 warrior classes.</blockquote>No, not really. This might have been true in TSO, but it really isn't true anymore. Guards have more snaps but less sustained agro in most content situations.Survivability with weak aggro control does not make for a satisfying tank to play. Now, if you've got that perfect group setup, little can defeat you. You just might take 2x as long doing it.Stick with Pally / Crusader to pwn aggro, in the end all plate tanks have sufficient survivability for 99% of the content.</blockquote>Yeah the "surviveability" argument just doesn't cut it anymore as a reason to pick Guardian over any of the others.I would only advice someone role a Guardian if they know ahead of time they will be geared up and used by a guild for MT duties....ann even that is not really enough anymore because the other plates make as good and in most cases a better raid tank choice. Outside of raiding there is no comparison.......Crusader or Zerk is really the only choice.

Yimway

09-08-2009, 04:27 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would only advice someone role a Guardian if they know ahead of time they will be geared up and used by a guild for MT duties....ann even that is not really enough anymore because the other plates make as good and in most cases a better raid tank choice. Outside of raiding there is no comparison.......Crusader or Zerk is really the only choice.</blockquote>I dish out similar advice. People in guild will roll a tank alt to use for instancing since there not enough raid tanks to go around, and honestly most of us don't want to tank outside of raids these days.Anyway, I've seen a number of them roll a guard cause they see us play them well in raid settings. I do my best to sway them away from that decision and try to educate them how a crusader would be a significantly better choice for an 'alt instance tank'.Those that stuck with the guard that I can think of are universally disapointed trying to run instances on them.I generally advice them pally > sk > zerk > guard, but only cause pally is so easymode for tanking they'll likely have less trouble with it. I personally would roll nothing but an SK for a tank in TSO.

LygerT

09-08-2009, 05:11 PM

and you know it's not easy to give people advice against playing either warrior class.yes, guards are really low on the pole now for alts and even zerks take up third rank on the plate list since both crusaders can generally outparse even a zerk on decent size AE fights and don't require such a stacked group to do it. oops, did i mention crusaders who are played well in decent gear can basically run some of the easier(and even some of the more difficult) instances without a healer?the only thing that at least i can say as a zerk is that i do provide some DPS buffs. although death march really is much better than anything i have...i still can say though that my zerk is more fun to play although less efficient after playing an SK for a bit.

Costa

09-10-2009, 10:42 AM

Sorry i wasn't advising him to play Guard it was just a question of have they considered it.As for advice it is simple. If you want a class that is easy mode tanking for pretty much any instance and any group set up roll a Pally. If you want a tank that involves skill to play and will probably require a group set up with hate transfer roll a Zerk.The other thing which i tell my guild mates when asking what class to play is roll a class you want to play and not worry about it. If you have friends in game that are playing the support classes it probably really won't make a huge difference which fighter you choose. In 5 months time the next expansion will be here so any opinions we have now will not matter when they push through the fighter changes as things will change. Hell we could all be saying "roll a brawler as they are the new op fighter class to play" <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Aull

09-10-2009, 01:08 PM

Unless core mechanics are changed brawlers will never be considered as a top notch tank. Brawlers will never be top notch dps either. As long brawlers stay as a "mixture" of tank and dps they will never excell in either dept.Plate fighters look as pure tanks just because of the shields and plate armor. They absorb hits far better than a brawler ever will. So most players will generally accept a plate fighter as a tank and not a fighter wearing leather and no shield.So again if mechanics of brawlers remains as they currently are then no they will not be OP'ed. The only way I see brawlers possibly becoming something of value are when they are either moved out of the mixture of part tank part dps and into a role of true tank or true dps.In reality six tanks are to many for this game and there are more than enough dps and utility classes as well. It will be hard for brawlers to excell.Sorry I got off the zerk vs paly debate.

RafaelSmith

09-10-2009, 02:59 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unless core mechanics are changed brawlers will never be considered as a top notch tank. Brawlers will never be top notch dps either. As long brawlers stay as a "mixture" of tank and dps they will never excell in either dept.Plate fighters look as pure tanks just because of the shields and plate armor. They absorb hits far better than a brawler ever will. So most players will generally accept a plate fighter as a tank and not a fighter wearing leather and no shield.So again if mechanics of brawlers remains as they currently are then no they will not be OP'ed. The only way I see brawlers possibly becoming something of value are when they are either moved out of the mixture of part tank part dps and into a role of true tank or true dps.In reality six tanks are to many for this game and there are more than enough dps and utility classes as well. It will be hard for brawlers to excell.Sorry I got off the zerk vs paly debate.</blockquote>If by "pure" tank you mean surviveability then whole balance of "DPS" -vs- "Tank" is out of whack across the entire archetype.....true Brawlers are the worst effected.But when you have a class like SK that is everybit as much a "pure" tank as any of the others and is also the highest in DPS the line becomes blurred.Personally I don't think there is room in the game anymore with its current mechanics for "pure" tank.

Aull

09-10-2009, 03:33 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> <cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unless core mechanics are changed brawlers will never be considered as a top notch tank. Brawlers will never be top notch dps either. As long brawlers stay as a "mixture" of tank and dps they will never excell in either dept.Plate fighters look as pure tanks just because of the shields and plate armor. They absorb hits far better than a brawler ever will. So most players will generally accept a plate fighter as a tank and not a fighter wearing leather and no shield.So again if mechanics of brawlers remains as they currently are then no they will not be OP'ed. The only way I see brawlers possibly becoming something of value are when they are either moved out of the mixture of part tank part dps and into a role of true tank or true dps.In reality six tanks are to many for this game and there are more than enough dps and utility classes as well. It will be hard for brawlers to excell.Sorry I got off the zerk vs paly debate.</blockquote>If by "pure" tank you mean surviveability then whole balance of "DPS" -vs- "Tank" is out of whack across the entire archetype.....true Brawlers are the worst effected.But when you have a class like SK that is everybit as much a "pure" tank as any of the others and is also the highest in DPS the line becomes blurred.Personally I don't think there is room in the game anymore with its current mechanics for "pure" tank.</blockquote>I agree with you. I just don't think that SOE will make this same mistake twice, which is why I don't see brawlers becoming any better next expac.Sk's were a strong class before TSO came out. It is just ROK didn't have all the aoe fights like TSO. No other fighter has the abilitys to tank, st dps/ae dps, solo, pvp, have great survival and provide utility like the sk period. No fighter should be top dog in all these catagories at the same time.

RafaelSmith

09-10-2009, 03:51 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unless core mechanics are changed brawlers will never be considered as a top notch tank. Brawlers will never be top notch dps either. As long brawlers stay as a "mixture" of tank and dps they will never excell in either dept.Plate fighters look as pure tanks just because of the shields and plate armor. They absorb hits far better than a brawler ever will. So most players will generally accept a plate fighter as a tank and not a fighter wearing leather and no shield.So again if mechanics of brawlers remains as they currently are then no they will not be OP'ed. The only way I see brawlers possibly becoming something of value are when they are either moved out of the mixture of part tank part dps and into a role of true tank or true dps.In reality six tanks are to many for this game and there are more than enough dps and utility classes as well. It will be hard for brawlers to excell.Sorry I got off the zerk vs paly debate.</blockquote>If by "pure" tank you mean surviveability then whole balance of "DPS" -vs- "Tank" is out of whack across the entire archetype.....true Brawlers are the worst effected.But when you have a class like SK that is everybit as much a "pure" tank as any of the others and is also the highest in DPS the line becomes blurred.Personally I don't think there is room in the game anymore with its current mechanics for "pure" tank.</blockquote>I agee with you. I just don't think that SOE will make this same mistake twice, which is why I don't see brawlers becoming any better next expac.</blockquote>Hard to say what if any changes they will make to fighters. Their recent attemp at revamping fighters proved they really have no clue what the real issues are and instead just overeact and want to turn the role of "tanking" into mindless easy-mode. I firmly believe that SOE thinks that its ok for a MC/Legendary fighter to be able to keep aggro against raid geared/mythicaled DPS. That alone should indicate what they intend for fighters.

BChizzle

09-10-2009, 06:45 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I firmly believe that SOE thinks that its ok for a MC/Legendary fighter to be able to keep aggro against raid geared/mythicaled DPS.</blockquote>Isnt that a good thing though? I mean seriously is it such a bad idea that a legendary fighter can hold agro from raid geared dps? More tanks able to tank group zones the better imo and if a heroic tank doesnt have agro issues then raid geared tanks certainly will which is part of every tank classes list of problems. Look a herioc geared healer can heal with the rest of the group raid geared, a dps can dps with the rest of the group raid geared why shouldn't the tanks be the only ones who are hurt being with others in the group who are geared better.

Aull

09-11-2009, 09:38 AM

It is a good thing when a mc/legendary fighter can hold aggro when grouped with fabled dps. On the flip side if this ever becomes reality then next we will see mc/legendary dps players parsing equally with raiding fabled dps players. If so then I would venture to say that any raiding player would be alittle disappointed when all their time and efforts were basically wasted.Good for the casual player, but the end game raiders are the ones that actually loose in this type of scenario.

RafaelSmith

09-11-2009, 11:24 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I firmly believe that SOE thinks that its ok for a MC/Legendary fighter to be able to keep aggro against raid geared/mythicaled DPS.</blockquote>Isnt that a good thing though? I mean seriously is it such a bad idea that a legendary fighter can hold agro from raid geared dps? More tanks able to tank group zones the better imo and if a heroic tank doesnt have agro issues then raid geared tanks certainly will which is part of every tank classes list of problems. Look a herioc geared healer can heal with the rest of the group raid geared, a dps can dps with the rest of the group raid geared why shouldn't the tanks be the only ones who are hurt being with others in the group who are geared better.</blockquote>Crappy geared fighters being able to lock aggro against much better DPSers is a horrible idea. They should not be able too......same as a raid that can only put out 12k dps cannot take out Dayakara, etc.No its not a good thing because it removes any seperation between the good and the bad players. Why bother trying to get better, attain better gear if all you need is whatever SOE hands you in terms of spells and MC gear?Personally I think SOE went too far with 'fixing' SKs. Aggro should be hard....and should involve everyone in the group doing their part. But I see far far far less geared SKs than my Guard pretty much be able to lock aggro down against better geared DPSers that can just go all out without any concern about grabbing aggro. Its broken.T

RafaelSmith

09-11-2009, 11:25 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a good thing when a mc/legendary fighter can hold aggro when grouped with fabled dps. On the flip side if this ever becomes reality then next we will see mc/legendary dps players parsing equally with raiding fabled dps players. If so then I would venture to say that any raiding player would be alittle disappointed when all their time and efforts were basically wasted.Good for the casual player, but the end game raiders are the ones that actually loose in this type of scenario.</blockquote>Its just as bad for Casuals if you ask me.

Kigneer

09-11-2009, 11:59 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>No its not a good thing because it removes any seperation between the good and the bad players. Why bother trying to get better, attain better gear if all you need is whatever SOE hands you in terms of spells and MC gear?</blockquote>Because so many don't even earn their myths/fabled gear anymore. It's open season to BUY both. Talking about "easy-mode" playing.Some may claim Amends is "easy-mode" tanking, but until a Paladin has enough AAs high dpsers can still pull hate with it applied. Furthermore, only one in a party can have Amends, so if your group/raid has many high dpsers, hate management can still be a problem. Paladins are slow to gain hate, and without the snap aggro of other fighters, which can lead to a heavy dpser or healer dying before the hate is snapped back to the Pally.Paladins aren't dps tanks, we're not even really spell tanks, we're a hybrid class but master of no one combat/spell/heal art. It is one of the best balanced classes, and it's a shame that the other classes aren't as balanced, especially when they claim us Paladins are so "weak".

RafaelSmith

09-11-2009, 02:28 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>No its not a good thing because it removes any seperation between the good and the bad players. Why bother trying to get better, attain better gear if all you need is whatever SOE hands you in terms of spells and MC gear?</blockquote>Because so many don't even earn their myths/fabled gear anymore. It's open season to BUY both. Talking about "easy-mode" playing.Some may claim Amends is "easy-mode" tanking, but until a Paladin has enough AAs high dpsers can still pull hate with it applied. Furthermore, only one in a party can have Amends, so if your group/raid has many high dpsers, hate management can still be a problem. Paladins are slow to gain hate, and without the snap aggro of other fighters, which can lead to a heavy dpser or healer dying before the hate is snapped back to the Pally.Paladins aren't dps tanks, we're not even really spell tanks, we're a hybrid class but master of no one combat/spell/heal art. It is one of the best balanced classes, and it's a shame that the other classes aren't as balanced, especially when they claim us Paladins are so "weak".</blockquote>While I cannot say much about Brawlers because frankly I knowvery little about them and rarely group or raid with them....I have had alot of experience playing with the plates and I agree Paladin does seem to be just about right. They cannot do everything(Lock aggro, high DPS, high surviveability, etc) all at the same time like an SK and even with Amends they still need to work for their aggro...especially with high DPS groups. My class Guardian, is actually not too bad off in terms of what I feel tanking should be....could just use a tad more in the way of being able to maintain hate without requiring ideal group construction. The problem is that, at least from what I have witnessed both on my Guard and my Assassin is that everyone(mostly DPS and healers) seem really spoiled by what they can do grouped with a SK. They can clear zones in record time and not really have to worry about watching their aggro and Its made for lazy play which really hurts when those people have to group with a class like Guard for example. I know when I play my Assassin and group with an SK, I am guilty of not really playing very smart.I just target whatever I feel like and go to town.

Kigneer

09-11-2009, 03:08 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is that, at least from what I have witnessed both on my Guard and my Assassin is that everyone(mostly DPS and healers) seem really spoiled by what they can do grouped with a SK. They can clear zones in record time and not really have to worry about watching their aggro and Its made for lazy play which really hurts when those people have to group with a class like Guard for example. I know when I play my Assassin and group with an SK, I am guilty of not really playing very smart.I just target whatever I feel like and go to town.</blockquote>SKs die though, and die hard and very unexpectively.Went out to KC the other day and while our group were killing things at a tad slower pace no one died. As soon as a SK joined us, not only did he die out of the blue by pulling too many at a time (he wanted to fast burn a zone, like so many overpowered classes do) we died with him. His myth couldn't even save him.But I still managed to pull the hate off him. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

BChizzle

09-11-2009, 03:23 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I firmly believe that SOE thinks that its ok for a MC/Legendary fighter to be able to keep aggro against raid geared/mythicaled DPS.</blockquote>Isnt that a good thing though? I mean seriously is it such a bad idea that a legendary fighter can hold agro from raid geared dps? More tanks able to tank group zones the better imo and if a heroic tank doesnt have agro issues then raid geared tanks certainly will which is part of every tank classes list of problems. Look a herioc geared healer can heal with the rest of the group raid geared, a dps can dps with the rest of the group raid geared why shouldn't the tanks be the only ones who are hurt being with others in the group who are geared better.</blockquote>Crappy geared fighters being able to lock aggro against much better DPSers is a horrible idea. They should not be able too......same as a raid that can only put out 12k dps cannot take out Dayakara, etc.No its not a good thing because it removes any seperation between the good and the bad players. Why bother trying to get better, attain better gear if all you need is whatever SOE hands you in terms of spells and MC gear?Personally I think SOE went too far with 'fixing' SKs. Aggro should be hard....and should involve everyone in the group doing their part. But I see far far far less geared SKs than my Guard pretty much be able to lock aggro down against better geared DPSers that can just go all out without any concern about grabbing aggro. Its broken.T</blockquote>Agro generation isn't the only measure of a tank. Quite simply an avatar geared tank shouldn't care if a legendary tank can also hold agro from a raid geared group the same as them because the avatar geared tank can dps higher and survive much easier. Its called options, when you reach a certain level as a tank all your pure tanking stuff starts to come off for more dps, it has always been this way and honestly it is one of the things SOE does right because it keeps tanks happy in progression.

RafaelSmith

09-11-2009, 04:02 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agro generation isn't the only measure of a tank.</blockquote>True....but without it nothing else really matters.

Yimway

09-11-2009, 04:10 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agro generation isn't the only measure of a tank. </blockquote>Actually, aggro generation is the _only_ measure of a plate tank in the game currently.

RafaelSmith

09-11-2009, 04:30 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agro generation isn't the only measure of a tank.</blockquote>Actually, aggro generation is the _only_ measure of a plate tank in the game currently.</blockquote>Yep..

Aull

09-11-2009, 04:48 PM

Mitigation, block, avoidance, or any other stat means absolutely nothing if the tank is not the one being hit. Aggro to me is far and above the most important factor for a tank.If all fighters had such great suvivability that they could never die but couldn't not ever ever have any chance to hold aggro then what would the rest of the group say? Would aggro mean anything to them?

Ocello

09-11-2009, 04:59 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers don't have any snap aggro tools other than rescue.</blockquote>WOW never played a Zerker much? I'm sorry, well-said post, but here you are simply wrong. Zerkers have FIVE freaking snap aggro tools: Gibe, sneering assault, cry of the warrior, rescue, and Jeering Onslaught (TSO endline skill). Jeering Onslaught is also on a 40 second (!!!!!!!!!!) reuse. So excuse me sir, but you are way off here. I can basically rescue every forty seconds if I need to. Oh did I mention Gibe and Jeering are both AOE???Zerkers are Gods of snap aggro, Paladins are Gods of sustained aggro.

Aull

09-11-2009, 07:26 PM

Don't kill me Ocello. I will say that I stand corrected and that you are right. I just started playing my zerker again about two months ago and I still need those aa's. It is my bad for being misleading and I apologize.Now can I get a rez please?

Prestissimo

09-11-2009, 08:47 PM

Agro is not the only thing that matters. If you can generate infinite hate but can't survive a single shot, what good will you be?Agro and survivability are both critically important, and without one, the other doesn't matter since you will not be able to function properly as a tank.Tank agro generation mechanics are currently a mess (more so the paladin and guardian since they manipulate hate rather than generate it like the other 4) and the developers either are unable or are unwilling to fix it. In the meantime, agro is currently made up half by your dps, and half by hate generating buffs/abilities from yourself and group/raid members. Survivability is 1/4 based on your classes damage control abilities, 1/4 your utilization of them, 1/4 your gear, and 1/4 the available buffs/debuffs from yourself and others. Breaking that down further results in the following summary:Tank's value = agro + survivability<ul><li>Agro = dps + gear + group setup + player(s) ability</li><li>Survivability = class abilities + utilization effictiveness + gear + group setup/abilities.</li></ul>Therefore, the tank's value is measured in the form of 1/8 dps, 2/8 gear, 3/8 group setup and abilities, 1/8 your effectiveness with your own abilities, 1/8 your inherrent class abilities.Now if you were to look at those and determine which one is controllable by the person playing the toon, your dps, your gear, and your skill. The rest are not dirrectly controlled by your keystrokes. Half of the factors proportionately are dependent on others. There are ways you can skew the balance in your favor even if you start out with less than favorable circumstances, but in the end, it cannot be denied that all of those factors are present in determining whether or not you can function as a tank. As long as the cumulative total of all 8 of the factors add up to more than what is required by your target mob, it is possible to tank the target mob. It doesn't matter if one of those 8 is vastly higher than another, it only matters that at the end of the equation you are supperior to the mob, and all of the 8 category's meet at least the minimums.

BChizzle

09-11-2009, 09:39 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agro generation isn't the only measure of a tank.</blockquote>Actually, aggro generation is the _only_ measure of a plate tank in the game currently.</blockquote>Yep..</blockquote>You are actually completely wrong. All that matters is being #1 on agro whether the next person is at 90% or 50% it doesn't matter so agro generation is not even that important a measure just being tops on hate is what matters. Case in point we don't even use a scout hate transfer in our MT group 99% of the time, they really aren't needed there and it effect the raid absolutely in no way whatsoever. Fact is there is no reason why a legendary equipped tank cant hold agro from a raid geared group and the advantages of being a raid geared tank are being able to move through the zone more rapidily due to more dps and not needed as much heals.

Kigneer

09-11-2009, 10:01 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact is there is no reason why a legendary equipped tank cant hold agro from a raid geared group and the advantages of being a raid geared tank are being able to move through the zone more rapidily due to more dps and not needed as much heals.</blockquote>Only if they have enough AAs in taunts and/or hate mods. A tank without both, won't be able to hold hate (learned this the hard way). A raid geared tank will run through a zone faster due to crit mit and other bonuses from his gear.But gear has no bearing on obtaining and holding hate, especially considering I can take it back and hold it from T4 geared tanks. That really depends on taunt/hate mod AAs, class and the tank remembering to use their taunts (not trying to be a dpser to show off parses and hitting more than taunting...a capital no-no when in high dps groups).

BChizzle

09-12-2009, 12:07 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact is there is no reason why a legendary equipped tank cant hold agro from a raid geared group and the advantages of being a raid geared tank are being able to move through the zone more rapidily due to more dps and not needed as much heals.</blockquote>Only if they have enough AAs in taunts and/or hate mods. A tank without both, won't be able to hold hate (learned this the hard way). A raid geared tank will run through a zone faster due to crit mit and other bonuses from his gear.But gear has no bearing on obtaining and holding hate, especially considering I can take it back and hold it from T4 geared tanks. That really depends on taunt/hate mod AAs, class and the tank remembering to use their taunts (not trying to be a dpser to show off parses and hitting more than taunting...a capital no-no when in high dps groups).</blockquote>Gear is the reason for raiding, how can u just dismiss its value to tanking and holding agro that is rediculous. Most tanks dont even use their taunts because they are less agro generation then just hitting a combat art or spell so those aa's are useless. My point is people are saying a lower tiered tank shouldn't be able to hold agro off of raid dps my point is yes they should be able to do it the same way a legendary dpser can be in a raid geared group or a legendary healer etc.

Bruener

09-12-2009, 10:58 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact is there is no reason why a legendary equipped tank cant hold agro from a raid geared group and the advantages of being a raid geared tank are being able to move through the zone more rapidily due to more dps and not needed as much heals.</blockquote>Only if they have enough AAs in taunts and/or hate mods. A tank without both, won't be able to hold hate (learned this the hard way). A raid geared tank will run through a zone faster due to crit mit and other bonuses from his gear.But gear has no bearing on obtaining and holding hate, especially considering I can take it back and hold it from T4 geared tanks. That really depends on taunt/hate mod AAs, class and the tank remembering to use their taunts (not trying to be a dpser to show off parses and hitting more than taunting...a capital no-no when in high dps groups).</blockquote>Gear is the reason for raiding, how can u just dismiss its value to tanking and holding agro that is rediculous. Most tanks dont even use their taunts because they are less agro generation then just hitting a combat art or spell so those aa's are useless. My point is people are saying a lower tiered tank shouldn't be able to hold agro off of raid dps my point is yes they should be able to do it the same way a legendary dpser can be in a raid geared group or a legendary healer etc.</blockquote>And the fact is legendary tanks CAN do it. The dps just has to slow down and do their part on paying attention to the hate meter. Just like a tank that has an under-geared healer isn't going to go room pull and wipe the entire group because the healer couldn't keep up. Or pull a mass AE group of mobs with real bad DPS in the group because they won't be able to burn it down fast enough.So, no a legendary geared tank should NOT be able to hold agro off of raid DPS with the raid DPS going all out. But yes they CAN do it if the DPS actually is paying attention and makes the adjustments that they need to.Working as intended.

Kigneer

09-12-2009, 12:48 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact is there is no reason why a legendary equipped tank cant hold agro from a raid geared group and the advantages of being a raid geared tank are being able to move through the zone more rapidily due to more dps and not needed as much heals.</blockquote>Only if they have enough AAs in taunts and/or hate mods. A tank without both, won't be able to hold hate (learned this the hard way). A raid geared tank will run through a zone faster due to crit mit and other bonuses from his gear.But gear has no bearing on obtaining and holding hate, especially considering I can take it back and hold it from T4 geared tanks. That really depends on taunt/hate mod AAs, class and the tank remembering to use their taunts (not trying to be a dpser to show off parses and hitting more than taunting...a capital no-no when in high dps groups).</blockquote>Gear is the reason for raiding, how can u just dismiss its value to tanking and holding agro that is rediculous. Most tanks dont even use their taunts because they are less agro generation then just hitting a combat art or spell so those aa's are useless. My point is people are saying a lower tiered tank shouldn't be able to hold agro off of raid dps my point is yes they should be able to do it the same way a legendary dpser can be in a raid geared group or a legendary healer etc.</blockquote>It's about teamwork. Period.Any dpser who doesn't know their casting order isn't a very skilled dpser. Doesn't matter what class of tank, that saying tanks have "If you pull it, you tank it" is there to remind these dpsers that if they don't pay attention to their hate gain, they'll have that boss powdering their behind with more than talc! This is true from level 10 to 80 in any gear, needs to learn to never get to 100% on the hate table.Any tank with enough AAs should be able to hold the hate, as long as folks don't turn off their hate meters off. A good dpser will see their hate rising and will adjust so the tank doesn't lose it. It's that simple.

BChizzle

09-12-2009, 06:06 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>And the fact is legendary tanks CAN do it. The dps just has to slow down and do their part on paying attention to the hate meter. Just like a tank that has an under-geared healer isn't going to go room pull and wipe the entire group because the healer couldn't keep up. Or pull a mass AE group of mobs with real bad DPS in the group because they won't be able to burn it down fast enough.So, no a legendary geared tank should NOT be able to hold agro off of raid DPS with the raid DPS going all out. But yes they CAN do it if the DPS actually is paying attention and makes the adjustments that they need to.Working as intended.</blockquote>This is where we disagree. As a healer in legendary gear with the rest of the group raid geared do the raid geared people have to hold back? The answer is no, as a dps in legendary in a raid geared group does anyone have to hold back, the answer again is no. People complaining they are making agro easy mode are dumb because agro already is easy mode. A legendary geared tank should be able to hold agro over raid geared dps plain and simple. The only difference should be that legendary tank should die if he tries to tank end game encounters which is exactly the reason why progression works, you dont get raid gear to tank heroics.

Rahatmattata

09-12-2009, 06:36 PM

Um, no. A tank in legendary/treasured/naked should not be able to hold aggro from fabled geared dps. What's the point of having deaggros, groups saves, and threat snaps then? Even in a group with equal gear and good buffs, a tier1 dps should be able to rip if they burst at the wrong time and get lucky with crits and high hits without the tank burning some type of threat temp buff.Easy mode aggro lock is dumb and turns dps classes into face rolling button mashers.

Kigneer

09-12-2009, 07:58 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Um, no. A tank in legendary/treasured/naked should not be able to hold aggro from fabled geared dps. What's the point of having deaggros, groups saves, and threat snaps then? Even in a group with equal gear and good buffs, a tier1 dps should be able to rip if they burst at the wrong time and get lucky with crits and high hits without the tank burning some type of threat temp buff.Easy mode aggro lock is dumb and turns dps classes into face rolling button mashers.</blockquote>No way."...a tier1 dps should be able to rip if they burst at the wrong time and get lucky with crits and high hits..."That's the definition of easy mode dps, wanting to just blow things up without consequences.Nope. Make a mistake and start ripping into mobs before a tank can gain the hate, and the dpsers can just tank the beasties themselves...If you pull it, you tank it.After a few deaths the dpsers will learn they can dps, but without other classes and working with them, they're deader than a door knob.A tank's job is to to "direct traffic" and keep the cloth and leather from becoming pincushions. If dpsers want to become the next pinheads and not think before hitting those buttons for their biggest spells at the start, I'm all for it, as long as their bodies litter the doorways and the rest of the group is safe and sound, as they're playing as a group.

BChizzle

09-12-2009, 08:39 PM

BChizzle

09-12-2009, 08:47 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Um, no. A tank in legendary/treasured/naked should not be able to hold aggro from fabled geared dps. What's the point of having deaggros, groups saves, and threat snaps then? Even in a group with equal gear and good buffs, a tier1 dps should be able to rip if they burst at the wrong time and get lucky with crits and high hits without the tank burning some type of threat temp buff.Easy mode aggro lock is dumb and turns dps classes into face rolling button mashers.</blockquote>No way."...a tier1 dps should be able to rip if they burst at the wrong time and get lucky with crits and high hits..."That's the definition of easy mode dps, wanting to just blow things up without consequences.Nope. Make a mistake and start ripping into mobs before a tank can gain the hate, and the dpsers can just tank the beasties themselves...If you pull it, you tank it.After a few deaths the dpsers will learn they can dps, but without other classes and working with them, they're deader than a door knob.A tank's job is to to "direct traffic" and keep the cloth and leather from becoming pincushions. If dpsers want to become the next pinheads and not think before hitting those buttons for their biggest spells at the start, I'm all for it, as long as their bodies litter the doorways and the rest of the group is safe and sound, as they're playing as a group.</blockquote>Nobody isn't saying dps should unload on a pull what I am saying is not having raid gear shouldn't break the agro dynamic in single group content. At some point as long as the tank is current tier geared dps should be able to use all the resources available to them even if they are raid geared, this game isn't about not using things we get spells we get gear we get superpowered we want to use those upgrades and have fun not sit on our hands because a tank isn't raid geared, that is a horrible concept.

Rahatmattata

09-12-2009, 11:16 PM

I completely disagree with everything you said. To answer your question why legendary tanks should struggle with aggro vs better geared dps: I already said threat control should not be easy mode. Yes aggro is easy mode for 2 classes in the game, but that doesn't mean it should be. Apparently you disagree and think holding aggro should be trivial.... that's great. But, the only thing that really matters here is what Aerilik thinks tbh.As far as your little analogy about legendary priests healing fabled group members and legendary dps grouping with fabled tanks with no restrictions, you are just plain wrong. Legendary priests can't keep players alive as well as a fabled priest. This means pulling less encounters at once, not having aggro bouncing around hitting everyone, maybe even not using BTC or having to swap in more survivable gear for some fights.Legendary dps does less dps, leading to longer fights, more adds spawning, more chance to mess up a script because the fight is taking longer, possibly not enough dps to kill the encounter period, more chance of dying when taking damage, etc.I've been in plenty of groups that utterly failed because of poor dps. I've been in plently of groups that utterly failed because of healers not geared well enough to keep players alive.

Aull

09-13-2009, 12:53 AM

The best dps'ers are usually the ones that also play a fighter class and understand that dps classes can rip aggro fairly quick if they are careless. Dps players that have never played a fighter class have no clue of the difficulty that fighters face when teamed with careless dps. So in the end these dps players (that have no clue) blame the tank for their own death.Most end game raiders do not see this often since most are seasoned players and have an understanding of what is going on.

Kigneer

09-13-2009, 01:29 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Um, no. A tank in legendary/treasured/naked should not be able to hold aggro from fabled geared dps. What's the point of having deaggros, groups saves, and threat snaps then? Even in a group with equal gear and good buffs, a tier1 dps should be able to rip if they burst at the wrong time and get lucky with crits and high hits without the tank burning some type of threat temp buff.Easy mode aggro lock is dumb and turns dps classes into face rolling button mashers.</blockquote>No way."...a tier1 dps should be able to rip if they burst at the wrong time and get lucky with crits and high hits..."That's the definition of easy mode dps, wanting to just blow things up without consequences.Nope. Make a mistake and start ripping into mobs before a tank can gain the hate, and the dpsers can just tank the beasties themselves...If you pull it, you tank it.After a few deaths the dpsers will learn they can dps, but without other classes and working with them, they're deader than a door knob.A tank's job is to to "direct traffic" and keep the cloth and leather from becoming pincushions. If dpsers want to become the next pinheads and not think before hitting those buttons for their biggest spells at the start, I'm all for it, as long as their bodies litter the doorways and the rest of the group is safe and sound, as they're playing as a group.</blockquote>Nobody isn't saying dps should unload on a pull what I am saying is not having raid gear shouldn't break the agro dynamic in single group content. At some point as long as the tank is current tier geared dps should be able to use all the resources available to them even if they are raid geared, this game isn't about not using things we get spells we get gear we get superpowered we want to use those upgrades and have fun not sit on our hands because a tank isn't raid geared, that is a horrible concept.</blockquote>Reread that sentence that's highlight again, yes, it's exactly what he said. If he wants to start big to get a lucky shot he wants too.But in reality, he can't because if he does the tanks don't have time to build hate and they must build it. Why the best dpsers open small, and end big, knowing full well the tank has enough aggro to hold the mob(s) down about 3/4th way into the fight.There's a big disconnect here with end-game raiders with the rest of the game, as they expect so-and-so to perform like them. This isn't the case in PuGs (prime way raids are formed and executed), especially when they prefer to even hide their aggro meter as it "gets in the way".

BChizzle

09-13-2009, 02:20 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>But, the only thing that really matters here is what Aerilik thinks tbh.</blockquote>Aerilik agrees with me thats why he is making agro easier across the boards, sorry to tell you but if the old tank changes went in anyone in mastercrafted would have been able to hold agro significantly better then how things are now.

BChizzle

09-13-2009, 02:28 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reread that sentence that's highlight again, yes, it's exactly what he said. If he wants to start big to get a lucky shot he wants too.But in reality, he can't because if he does the tanks don't have time to build hate and they must build it. Why the best dpsers open small, and end big, knowing full well the tank has enough aggro to hold the mob(s) down about 3/4th way into the fight.There's a big disconnect here with end-game raiders with the rest of the game, as they expect so-and-so to perform like them. This isn't the case in PuGs (prime way raids are formed and executed), especially when they prefer to even hide their aggro meter as it "gets in the way".</blockquote>I don't need to re-read anything if a mage has a 1 million thousand billion nuke and they hit it on open I simply hit positional and I am top of the hate charts in the time it takes to cast it. The disconnect here is you rank raid gear and raiders too high because you don't have that gear yourself due to being in a casual guild.

Kigneer

09-13-2009, 02:43 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reread that sentence that's highlight again, yes, it's exactly what he said. If he wants to start big to get a lucky shot he wants too.But in reality, he can't because if he does the tanks don't have time to build hate and they must build it. Why the best dpsers open small, and end big, knowing full well the tank has enough aggro to hold the mob(s) down about 3/4th way into the fight.There's a big disconnect here with end-game raiders with the rest of the game, as they expect so-and-so to perform like them. This isn't the case in PuGs (prime way raids are formed and executed), especially when they prefer to even hide their aggro meter as it "gets in the way".</blockquote>I don't need to re-read anything if a mage has a 1 million thousand billion nuke and they hit it on open I simply hit positional and I am top of the hate charts in the time it takes to cast it. The disconnect here is you rank raid gear and raiders too high because you don't have that gear yourself due to being in a casual guild.</blockquote>Ah, no you don't. Don't care what class you are, if a dpser opens with his highest spell (especially of that magnitude) you're not going to keep the aggro. Nope. Nada.If it was possible all the time to maintain hate, there would be no need to have hate transfer or any taunts or a hate meter. Not even crusaders now can maintain it all the time, no matter what gear they wear.

BChizzle

09-14-2009, 12:28 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reread that sentence that's highlight again, yes, it's exactly what he said. If he wants to start big to get a lucky shot he wants too.But in reality, he can't because if he does the tanks don't have time to build hate and they must build it. Why the best dpsers open small, and end big, knowing full well the tank has enough aggro to hold the mob(s) down about 3/4th way into the fight.There's a big disconnect here with end-game raiders with the rest of the game, as they expect so-and-so to perform like them. This isn't the case in PuGs (prime way raids are formed and executed), especially when they prefer to even hide their aggro meter as it "gets in the way".</blockquote>I don't need to re-read anything if a mage has a 1 million thousand billion nuke and they hit it on open I simply hit positional and I am top of the hate charts in the time it takes to cast it. The disconnect here is you rank raid gear and raiders too high because you don't have that gear yourself due to being in a casual guild.</blockquote>Ah, no you don't. Don't care what class you are, if a dpser opens with his highest spell (especially of that magnitude) you're not going to keep the aggro. Nope. Nada.If it was possible all the time to maintain hate, there would be no need to have hate transfer or any taunts or a hate meter. Not even crusaders now can maintain it all the time, no matter what gear they wear.</blockquote>Since you don't have the slightest clue how hate works there is no sense arguing here.

Dinduit

09-14-2009, 01:37 PM

I have two 80 toon's; one main raid-geared wizzy, and an alt partially t3'ed pally. 95% of my raiding is done on my wizzy, so I cannot really speak w/ authority to the tanking mechanics of raiding except in regard to stealing aggro.Our MT in raids is also a Pally w/ amends usually on a crazy dpsing asassin. As dps, it is my job to watch my aggro meter and dump if I'm threatening to go above 90 on the meter; it's that simple really. My cast order allows me to start slow and estimate the amount the "big hits" will increase my hate... if I'm moving up quickly w/ the small stuff, then the big stuff will get me killed. (Not to say I don't do it anyway and have aggro dump queued, my evil twin does get the better of me sometimes) My point is that for the pure dps classes, maximizing dps and controlling your aggro is your biggest concern. Learn to walk that fine line and you are doing all that you can, regardless of what class/gear set is tanking for you. That goes for groups as well as raids.I created my pally as someone mentioned earlier as an instance tank to help in gearing up guildies, etc. There is a misconception about pallies and amends however. Yes, in many cases it is "easymode" aggro control; in the case of a pug w/ an asassin or caster pug doing 6-8k and the rest of the group struggling to find 3k, aggro is easy sauce. BUT, tank for my usual group of raid geared friends: an assasin, a sick monk, and a crazy illy sporting a wicked wand and aggro can be a bear that has to be tamed with or without amends. Throw in a warlock or swash and I gotta be on my toes.To the OP's question: it comes down to what you wanna do as a tank. I will say that a moderately geared pally offers slightly better surviveablity and aggro control than a comparably set zerker; however, higher end game gear closes that gap completely.From the standpoint of someone forming or joining a group as pure dps on my wiz; I will take a pally any day of the week. Give me amends and it's the only time in game that I have license to go all out. If I join a pug and find a zerker or sk tanking, I have a decision to make about their gear and skillset. If I have to pare down from 10k to 3k to stay alive it will suck all the fun out of said instance for me.Longer post than I set out for, but there it is.

RafaelSmith

09-14-2009, 01:40 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agro generation isn't the only measure of a tank.</blockquote>Actually, aggro generation is the _only_ measure of a plate tank in the game currently.</blockquote>Yep..</blockquote>You are actually completely wrong. All that matters is being #1 on agro whether the next person is at 90% or 50% it doesn't matter so agro generation is not even that important a measure just being tops on hate is what matters. Case in point we don't even use a scout hate transfer in our MT group 99% of the time, they really aren't needed there and it effect the raid absolutely in no way whatsoever. Fact is there is no reason why a legendary equipped tank cant hold agro from a raid geared group and the advantages of being a raid geared tank are being able to move through the zone more rapidily due to more dps and not needed as much heals.</blockquote>Of course being #1 on aggro is all that matters........doh.......which still means that Aggro generation is the most important measure of a tank. If you cant generate sufficient aggro to keep yourself at #1...the rest of your stats are meaningless.And I do not consider Snaps as part of aggro generation.....They simply put you on top or closer but do nothing to keep you there. Even after using something like Reinforcements......If i do not have the proper buffs I can sit there and watch that 2nd # on the hate meter rise rise rise in a matter of seconds.Currently we have some fighter types that can generation sufficient aggro on their own and others that simply cannot without others "doing it for them".....beit in the form of buffs, xfers or simply holding back.

BChizzle

09-14-2009, 02:05 PM

<cite>Dinduit wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I have to pare down from 10k to 3k to stay alive it will suck all the fun out of said instance for me.</blockquote>Here is exactly the reason why it isn't a bad idea for tanks in legendary to be able to hold agro effectively. People want to play their class not sit on their hands.

BChizzle

09-14-2009, 02:09 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agro generation isn't the only measure of a tank.</blockquote>Actually, aggro generation is the _only_ measure of a plate tank in the game currently.</blockquote>Yep..</blockquote>You are actually completely wrong. All that matters is being #1 on agro whether the next person is at 90% or 50% it doesn't matter so agro generation is not even that important a measure just being tops on hate is what matters. Case in point we don't even use a scout hate transfer in our MT group 99% of the time, they really aren't needed there and it effect the raid absolutely in no way whatsoever. Fact is there is no reason why a legendary equipped tank cant hold agro from a raid geared group and the advantages of being a raid geared tank are being able to move through the zone more rapidily due to more dps and not needed as much heals.</blockquote>Of course being #1 on aggro is all that matters........doh.......which still means that Aggro generation is the most important measure of a tank. If you cant generate sufficient aggro to keep yourself at #1...the rest of your stats are meaningless.And I do not consider Snaps as part of aggro generation.....They simply put you on top or closer but do nothing to keep you there. Even after using something like Reinforcements......If i do not have the proper buffs I can sit there and watch that 2nd # on the hate meter rise rise rise in a matter of seconds.Currently we have some fighter types that can generation sufficient aggro on their own and others that simply cannot without others "doing it for them".....beit in the form of buffs, xfers or simply holding back.</blockquote>You are missing the point. It doesn't matter beyond being #1. If you produce 1000 units worth of hate per minute or 1 million it makes no difference when the next closest class is just at 900 units. Hence hate production really doesnt matter being #1 is what matters. It isn't a scale, you don't benefit from more hate when you are already locked on top. And if you can't hold hate as a guard sorry but you need to get better.

RafaelSmith

09-14-2009, 02:28 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agro generation isn't the only measure of a tank.</blockquote>Actually, aggro generation is the _only_ measure of a plate tank in the game currently.</blockquote>Yep..</blockquote>You are actually completely wrong. All that matters is being #1 on agro whether the next person is at 90% or 50% it doesn't matter so agro generation is not even that important a measure just being tops on hate is what matters. Case in point we don't even use a scout hate transfer in our MT group 99% of the time, they really aren't needed there and it effect the raid absolutely in no way whatsoever. Fact is there is no reason why a legendary equipped tank cant hold agro from a raid geared group and the advantages of being a raid geared tank are being able to move through the zone more rapidily due to more dps and not needed as much heals.</blockquote>Of course being #1 on aggro is all that matters........doh.......which still means that Aggro generation is the most important measure of a tank. If you cant generate sufficient aggro to keep yourself at #1...the rest of your stats are meaningless.And I do not consider Snaps as part of aggro generation.....They simply put you on top or closer but do nothing to keep you there. Even after using something like Reinforcements......If i do not have the proper buffs I can sit there and watch that 2nd # on the hate meter rise rise rise in a matter of seconds.Currently we have some fighter types that can generation sufficient aggro on their own and others that simply cannot without others "doing it for them".....beit in the form of buffs, xfers or simply holding back.</blockquote>You are missing the point. It doesn't matter beyond being #1. If you produce 1000 units worth of hate per minute or 1 million it makes no difference when the next closest class is just at 900 units. Hence hate production really doesnt matter being #1 is what matters. It isn't a scale, you don't benefit from more hate when you are already locked on top. And if you can't hold hate as a guard sorry but you need to get better.</blockquote>Your telling me that your Guard can maintain enough threat per (unit of measure) on his own to lock himself at #1 regardless of content? What sorta DPS is the rest of your group/raid putting out? If so then I yield and admit I suck. Cause no way I can maintain enough threat on my own to keep myself at #1 when grouped with Warlocks and Wizards putting out 12k+ DPS.

Rahatmattata

09-14-2009, 03:54 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dinduit wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I have to pare down from 10k to 3k to stay alive it will suck all the fun out of said instance for me.</blockquote>Here is exactly the reason why it isn't a bad idea for tanks in legendary to be able to hold agro effectively. People want to play their class not sit on their hands.</blockquote>That would be stupid. If dps classes in a group are struggling to break 3k dps, and the tank is doing, say 2k dps, it would be broken game mechanics for a wiz to join and do 10k dps and not rip aggro.If you do 10k dps and join a group that has dps classes struggling to break 3k, you are way overgeared for the group and should have to either throttle your threat generation (dps) to where the tank can handle it, or tank the encounters yourself (if you can manage to not die via buffs or crowd control or just plain awesomeness), or group with people with gear comparable to yours. Of course if you are constantly ripping, you are probably lowering everyone elses dps too, dicking the assassin's concealment chain, whiffing the brigand's backstabs as you have the mob firmly planted in a wall cuz you're a wizard and don't care, [Removed for Content] off the ranger as the mob turns in the middle of his long casting back shot, and sucking all the fun out of said instance for them, because you think you should be able to go full blast 100% of the time in a way undergeared group.Easy-mode aggro is fail, and when a dps blows his wad all at once without temp threat buffs up from the tank, the mob should turn around, [Removed for Content], and punch him in the face.

RafaelSmith

09-14-2009, 04:11 PM

BChizzle

09-14-2009, 07:10 PM

BChizzle

09-14-2009, 07:17 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dinduit wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I have to pare down from 10k to 3k to stay alive it will suck all the fun out of said instance for me.</blockquote>Here is exactly the reason why it isn't a bad idea for tanks in legendary to be able to hold agro effectively. People want to play their class not sit on their hands.</blockquote>That would be stupid. If dps classes in a group are struggling to break 3k dps, and the tank is doing, say 2k dps, it would be broken game mechanics for a wiz to join and do 10k dps and not rip aggro.</blockquote>If I am a healer that can pump out 10k hps vs one that pumps out 3k hps do I have to sit on my hands in a group with legendary geared players? The answer is no, all you are doing is creating a situation where tanks not amazingly geared are singled out in not being able to fit in any type of group meanwhile you can throw any other class into that group and nothing changes. GET IT? Make tanking possible for everybody regardless of gear plain and simple, pump the hell out of taunts if your all fabled up maybe you can dps more instead of hitting taunts all the time either way the end product is both types of tanks should be able to hold agro period. Fact is progression for tanks has always been like this gear up for taking hits, then gear up for dps/solo.

Dinduit

09-14-2009, 08:13 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dinduit wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I have to pare down from 10k to 3k to stay alive it will suck all the fun out of said instance for me.</blockquote>Here is exactly the reason why it isn't a bad idea for tanks in legendary to be able to hold agro effectively. People want to play their class not sit on their hands.</blockquote>Watching your aggro....adjusting your cast order, timing, etc based on the makeup of the group IS part of playing your class. At top raid-geared Wizard should not be able to play the same grouped with a Legendary tank as he does with tank geared like he is.Easy-mode aggro only encourges people not to play their class correctly. TSO + what SOE did to SKs has created alot of lazy badly played DPS classes.</blockquote>I'm reasonably sure i mentioned casting order and hate meter.... yup, looking back... I sure did. I also mentioned I have no problem in keeping myself to terms w/ it. Taking a sentence out of context and flaming it is pretty special, I admit. I simply said when I join a group w/ a lesser geared tank I have a decision to make. Thank you both for helping to make my point though.My point was this: No, a legendary geared tank is not and should not hold aggro in every situation. It is up to the group to work as a team to manage aggro and get the job done; in which case a legendary tank CAN be effective w/ a group of raid geared toons. Gear and skills come w/ experience and practice through progression... I like it that way.

Rahatmattata

09-15-2009, 02:47 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make tanking possible for everybody regardless of gear plain and simple</blockquote>You are a [Removed for Content].That is all.

Dechau

09-15-2009, 03:49 AM

<cite>Dinduit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dinduit wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I have to pare down from 10k to 3k to stay alive it will suck all the fun out of said instance for me.</blockquote>Here is exactly the reason why it isn't a bad idea for tanks in legendary to be able to hold agro effectively. People want to play their class not sit on their hands.</blockquote>Watching your aggro....adjusting your cast order, timing, etc based on the makeup of the group IS part of playing your class. At top raid-geared Wizard should not be able to play the same grouped with a Legendary tank as he does with tank geared like he is.Easy-mode aggro only encourges people not to play their class correctly. TSO + what SOE did to SKs has created alot of lazy badly played DPS classes.</blockquote>I'm reasonably sure i mentioned casting order and hate meter.... yup, looking back... I sure did. I also mentioned I have no problem in keeping myself to terms w/ it. Taking a sentence out of context and flaming it is pretty special, I admit. I simply said when I join a group w/ a lesser geared tank I have a decision to make. Thank you both for helping to make my point though.My point was this: No, a legendary geared tank is not and should not hold aggro in every situation. It is up to the group to work as a team to manage aggro and get the job done; in which case a legendary tank CAN be effective w/ a group of raid geared toons. Gear and skills come w/ experience and practice through progression... I like it that way.</blockquote>Well said imo..This is exactly how the game should be played.. Just because you play an Assassin it does not mean you HAVE To do 20k dps in pugs..Just because you are a Warlock it does not mean you HAVE To do 30k in Pugs..Learn to play the game, follow the tanks and you will see that a Legendary geared tank can Tank just fine in a raid geared grp..Make the Legendary Tank go easymode (Amends <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />) on higest dps'er will ofc help, but to have the rest of the grp look ouot for hatemeter will solve the problem completely..

Kigneer

09-15-2009, 06:06 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reread that sentence that's highlight again, yes, it's exactly what he said. If he wants to start big to get a lucky shot he wants too.But in reality, he can't because if he does the tanks don't have time to build hate and they must build it. Why the best dpsers open small, and end big, knowing full well the tank has enough aggro to hold the mob(s) down about 3/4th way into the fight.There's a big disconnect here with end-game raiders with the rest of the game, as they expect so-and-so to perform like them. This isn't the case in PuGs (prime way raids are formed and executed), especially when they prefer to even hide their aggro meter as it "gets in the way".</blockquote>I don't need to re-read anything if a mage has a 1 million thousand billion nuke and they hit it on open I simply hit positional and I am top of the hate charts in the time it takes to cast it. The disconnect here is you rank raid gear and raiders too high because you don't have that gear yourself due to being in a casual guild.</blockquote>Ah, no you don't. Don't care what class you are, if a dpser opens with his highest spell (especially of that magnitude) you're not going to keep the aggro. Nope. Nada.If it was possible all the time to maintain hate, there would be no need to have hate transfer or any taunts or a hate meter. Not even crusaders now can maintain it all the time, no matter what gear they wear.</blockquote>Since you don't have the slightest clue how hate works there is no sense arguing here.</blockquote>You don't have a clue period, as NO TANK CAN KEEP AGGRO 100% OF THE TIME. Avatar geared or not, the game is not set up for ANYONE to have 100% aggro 100% of the time. You WILL lose it, no matter if you taunt like crazy, and the game is designed to be such.A game is about chances. If it had none, it wouldn't be a game.

Siatfallen

09-15-2009, 07:32 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reread that sentence that's highlight again, yes, it's exactly what he said. If he wants to start big to get a lucky shot he wants too.But in reality, he can't because if he does the tanks don't have time to build hate and they must build it. Why the best dpsers open small, and end big, knowing full well the tank has enough aggro to hold the mob(s) down about 3/4th way into the fight.There's a big disconnect here with end-game raiders with the rest of the game, as they expect so-and-so to perform like them. This isn't the case in PuGs (prime way raids are formed and executed), especially when they prefer to even hide their aggro meter as it "gets in the way".</blockquote>I don't need to re-read anything if a mage has a 1 million thousand billion nuke and they hit it on open I simply hit positional and I am top of the hate charts in the time it takes to cast it. The disconnect here is you rank raid gear and raiders too high because you don't have that gear yourself due to being in a casual guild.</blockquote>Ah, no you don't. Don't care what class you are, if a dpser opens with his highest spell (especially of that magnitude) you're not going to keep the aggro. Nope. Nada.If it was possible all the time to maintain hate, there would be no need to have hate transfer or any taunts or a hate meter. Not even crusaders now can maintain it all the time, no matter what gear they wear.</blockquote>Since you don't have the slightest clue how hate works there is no sense arguing here.</blockquote>You don't have a clue period, as NO TANK CAN KEEP AGGRO 100% OF THE TIME. Avatar geared or not, the game is not set up for ANYONE to have 100% aggro 100% of the time. You WILL lose it, no matter if you taunt like crazy, and the game is designed to be such.A game is about chances. If it had none, it wouldn't be a game.</blockquote>Seriously people, learn to read. It pains me to write and agree with BChizzle, because disagreeing with him is usually much more fun, but this is so basic it really should not even bear mentioning, much less detailed explanation:The situation is this, in very simple terms:Spike damage at the beginning of an encounter (wizards casting Ice Comet or whatnot) creates problem for a tank holding aggro. Basically, the tank pulls (with an arrow, bodypull, or whatever) and then the wizards lands as number 1 on the hatelist with 3 gazillion hate because of Ice Comet.Wizards: 3 gazillion hate.Tank: Much less hate (about one taunt + 3% of 3 Gazillion).Everyone else: No hate.Solution: Tank casts rescue, or any other positional hate increase (we all have quite a few after tSO launch). Wizard casts positional deaggro immediately thereafter if able (racial ability for some until that's changed). New situation:Tank: 3 Gazillion hate + change.Everyone else: No hate (okay, so the wizard has the hate that his deaggro gives him... Which is to say still not a lot).Casting these effects takes around, hmm... 1 second after Ice Comet lands and you realise there's a problem. This is why, as a Tank, you watch your aggro-meter early in a fight, and no tank in the game whatsoever is incapable of doing this. Some of us may like to keep positional hate increasers for later in the fight, but a someone else said, once a crusader has aggro locked down, they keep it. Barring mem-wipes, what else would you use these abilities for, exactly?These positional taunts get resisted? Well, that's probably why you have more than one. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If the wizards wants to use Ice Comet first off against a mob whenever he's able? It should be feasible, just make sure you know he's doing it (ice comet has a decent casting time) and prepare your positional taunt to make up for it. It's really not that hard.Of course there are situations where a fighter will lose aggro. The prime example this expansion is a single-target fighter stuck in an AE zone with multiple linked encounters without aggro support and an AE DPSer (let's say warlock) who alpha-strikes. The Ykesha groupzone is a real pain that way.Other problems occur, but they are trivial, easily resolved and infrequent compared to the problem presented just above.

Kigneer

09-15-2009, 09:24 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wizards: 3 gazillion hate.Tank: Much less hate (about one taunt + 3% of 3 Gazillion).Everyone else: No hate.Solution: Tank casts rescue, or any other positional hate increase (we all have quite a few after tSO launch). Wizard casts positional deaggro immediately thereafter if able (racial ability for some until that's changed). New situation:</blockquote>It doesn't work like that, Siat. The group will generate hate just existing, and each class has a different way they can spike aggro at the pull. At times you have to decide who to put Amends on, because some encounters the healers are the prime target and one spike has a mob on them. If the healers die, the group dies with them. DPS itself doesn't decide who gets Amends, group survivability does -- and only one Amends per group, too. Between the healers and a gungho DPSer, I'll let the DPSer die everytime if they don't rein in their hate, as they should know better to NOT steal hate at level 80 in the first place.Those with deaggro tools who are good at it are excellent to group with, but that isn't the case most of the time. Usually it's a bunch of kids who want to pull a room and later brag about their parsers.

Maamadex

09-15-2009, 09:57 AM

Which encounters are the healers the prime target exactly? Tanks may not be able to hold aggro 100% of the time, but i bet I do somewhere around 90% - 95%at least. I like pulling entire rooms anyway, I can do it and hold aggro just fine and dandy. I don't do it to parse I do it cause its fun <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I want dps to go all out and try to rip aggro from me, I don't get this attitude you have Kigneer. I don't want them to be idiots but comeon, its good to test the limits and find out what you can get away with.

Siatfallen

09-15-2009, 11:19 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wizards: 3 gazillion hate.Tank: Much less hate (about one taunt + 3% of 3 Gazillion).Everyone else: No hate.Solution: Tank casts rescue, or any other positional hate increase (we all have quite a few after tSO launch). Wizard casts positional deaggro immediately thereafter if able (racial ability for some until that's changed). New situation:</blockquote>It doesn't work like that, Siat. The group will generate hate just existing, and each class has a different way they can spike aggro at the pull. At times you have to decide who to put Amends on, because some encounters the healers are the prime target and one spike has a mob on them. If the healers die, the group dies with them. DPS itself doesn't decide who gets Amends, group survivability does -- and only one Amends per group, too. Between the healers and a gungho DPSer, I'll let the DPSer die everytime if they don't rein in their hate, as they should know better to NOT steal hate at level 80 in the first place.Those with deaggro tools who are good at it are excellent to group with, but that isn't the case most of the time. Usually it's a bunch of kids who want to pull a room and later brag about their parsers.</blockquote>You're changing the argument, but to address the point:Yes, a group generates aggro by existing. Group buffs generate aggro. If you ever find that anyone's passive (as in: doing nothing) hate gain is a serious problem and tends to steal aggro on pull to the degree that you can't get it back in a single taunt... Then there's a problem. In the above, I left a second in response time, the idea being that you can get one taunt and a positional off in that time.Notice, in the above example, I made no mention of amends whosoever. It is irrelevant to the example in the first place.Finally: Now, I don't know the paladin class all that well, but as a monk I have at least one aggro tool that increases my aggro position by 5. In a single group, if it lands, I will always be at the top of the hate list no matter what.On top of that, just to make this stranger, rescue and sneering assault also both give more than one positional increase. Just how many people do you want to go haywire-left-my-brain-at-home crazy at once in this argument?

Kigneer

09-15-2009, 11:44 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Finally: Now, I don't know the paladin class all that well, but as a monk I have at least one aggro tool that increases my aggro position by 5. In a single group, if it lands, I will always be at the top of the hate list no matter what.On top of that, just to make this stranger, rescue and sneering assault also both give more than one positional increase. Just how many people do you want to go haywire-left-my-brain-at-home crazy at once in this argument?</blockquote>...And die pretty fast as well...What you're not reading, Siat, is that Paladins are s-l-o-w at building hate. I can use Faithful Cry, Sneering Assault, Holy Ground; Sigil of Heroism and Rescue, but if a Pally doesn't build hate, none will be effective. Guards have the best snap aggro tools, they can instantly pull something off, a Pally has to build enough hate to pull a baddie off, first. So when a high dps character rips upon a pull, a Pally often doesn't have enough hate, and that dpser is going to be lunch soon.In a zone where there's but a single target, Faithful Cry is great to get a huge jump on hate and pull the sucker, but too many instances you can't pull with it without aggroing mob(s). A body pull does not build the hate, either.Those who play with Paladin MTs understand this and adjust, but those who are so hardwired to play with Guardians have a hard time compensating, thinking "a tank is a tank". Each tank handles hate differently.

BChizzle

09-15-2009, 02:45 PM

Siatfallen

09-15-2009, 04:53 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Finally: Now, I don't know the paladin class all that well, but as a monk I have at least one aggro tool that increases my aggro position by 5. In a single group, if it lands, I will always be at the top of the hate list no matter what.On top of that, just to make this stranger, rescue and sneering assault also both give more than one positional increase. Just how many people do you want to go haywire-left-my-brain-at-home crazy at once in this argument?</blockquote>...And die pretty fast as well...What you're not reading, Siat, is that Paladins are s-l-o-w at building hate. I can use Faithful Cry, Sneering Assault, Holy Ground; Sigil of Heroism and Rescue, but if a Pally doesn't build hate, none will be effective. Guards have the best snap aggro tools, they can instantly pull something off, a Pally has to build enough hate to pull a baddie off, first. So when a high dps character rips upon a pull, a Pally often doesn't have enough hate, and that dpser is going to be lunch soon.In a zone where there's but a single target, Faithful Cry is great to get a huge jump on hate and pull the sucker, but too many instances you can't pull with it without aggroing mob(s). A body pull does not build the hate, either.Those who play with Paladin MTs understand this and adjust, but those who are so hardwired to play with Guardians have a hard time compensating, thinking "a tank is a tank". Each tank handles hate differently.</blockquote>As for dying fast: Not really. I'm not in omg uber raid gear a la BChizzle (and as he'll be happy to tell you, part of the reason is that I don't like tanking much; I'm one of these monks raised on "monks are scouts in disguise" and ideas like it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), but I do wear quite a bit of t4 raid gear. It's rare to find a group zone where survivability becomes a huge problem for me, as long as I've a decent healer along. Aggro control, on the other hand, can be painful. Single target fighter, multiple mobs... You know how it goes. Raid tanking? Eh, aside from Xebnok and a few emergency streaks of tanking when healers were sleepting and the MT went down, I simply do not know.I get the point in your argument I think: Paladins do not put loads of hate on the mob on pull, and if some DPSer decides to go all out at once, the paladin does not have time to get hate building itself and fall behind to watch the DPS die - it's hate over time effects you need to get up and running I assume?If that is the problem, then until you get hate up and running to the sufficient extent, you could compensate with positional tools, to keep yourself "artificially" on top of the hate list during the first 3-5 seconds or so. As long as you can get the positional in after the big alpha strike, you should be golden?

Yimway

09-15-2009, 05:22 PM

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>Which encounters are the healers the prime target exactly? Tanks may not be able to hold aggro 100% of the time, but i bet I do somewhere around 90% - 95%at least. I like pulling entire rooms anyway, I can do it and hold aggro just fine and dandy. I don't do it to parse I do it cause its fun <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I want dps to go all out and try to rip aggro from me, I don't get this attitude you have Kigneer. I don't want them to be idiots but comeon, its good to test the limits and find out what you can get away with.</blockquote>When the fight starts off with a 15 second stun and your relying on pre-heals to keep you alive initially and amends to keep the heal ticks from smiting your healers.Its an extreme rare example, but there are some extremely rare instances where heal aggro is a concern.

Dorieon

09-16-2009, 07:08 AM

Maamadex

09-16-2009, 01:38 PM

I usually have a relic of stability in my bags for something like that. If its a named fight. Otherwise yeah intercede and tossing a ward on them before casting sigil will do the trick or something of that nature.

Yimway

09-16-2009, 05:07 PM

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>When the fight starts off with a 15 second stun and your relying on pre-heals to keep you alive initially and amends to keep the heal ticks from smiting your healers.Its an extreme rare example, but there are some extremely rare instances where heal aggro is a concern.</blockquote>Fights like that I normally start with Intercede on the healer or have a scout pull. Either one will keep your healers alive.</blockquote>Not when its a group targeted stun. One interceed on the healer wont cut it. But this is crazy rare scenarios.Amends goes on the best non-transfer dps generally. What Palaidins often fail at understanding is you can't have hate transfering 2 ways. Placing amends on a swash / assasin cancels thier transfer, or it is to say, the higher value buff generally wins.So, given an assasin and wizard in your group and the assasin does 12k average and the wizard does 9k average, the wizard is still the better amends target.But a really good pally could keep agro without amends, too bad not many of those exist.

Boli32

09-16-2009, 10:08 PM

When amends gets removed it'll be interesting to see how much of the already dwiddling paladin population disappears altogether <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />Hell least it'll mean I'll get cheap masters next tier <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kigneer

09-16-2009, 10:22 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>Which encounters are the healers the prime target exactly? Tanks may not be able to hold aggro 100% of the time, but i bet I do somewhere around 90% - 95%at least. I like pulling entire rooms anyway, I can do it and hold aggro just fine and dandy. I don't do it to parse I do it cause its fun <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I want dps to go all out and try to rip aggro from me, I don't get this attitude you have Kigneer. I don't want them to be idiots but comeon, its good to test the limits and find out what you can get away with.</blockquote>When the fight starts off with a 15 second stun and your relying on pre-heals to keep you alive initially and amends to keep the heal ticks from smiting your healers.Its an extreme rare example, but there are some extremely rare instances where heal aggro is a concern.</blockquote>Or in those instances where healers are the mob's prime target (yes, rare, but can occur and wanted to put in here to show especially those who don't understand Paladins as they never played or tanked with them).If the healers go down first, it's a wipe, as we don't ask healers to join to keep Paladins up if we can do it ourselves! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />BTW, Atan, think I know who this dude is and his beef with me is beyond the game itself (not an assumption, someone who actually knows him filled me in. Explains the trolling catcalls).

Prestissimo

09-17-2009, 01:23 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Amends goes on the best non-transfer dps generally. What Palaidins often fail at understanding is you can't have hate transfering 2 ways. Placing amends on a swash / assasin cancels thier transfer, or it is to say, the higher value buff generally wins.So, given an assasin and wizard in your group and the assasin does 12k average and the wizard does 9k average, the wizard is still the better amends target.</blockquote>....... IF amends did cancel out the class's transfer to the paladin (which I would post a linkie but can't since it would bring bad juju from the mention of the location...), the assassin would be the better target because 41%/42% of 12k with no transfer since it's being overridden > 41%/42% of 9k with no transfer since it's being overridden.TBH though, even the sorcorer's hate transfer with the aa points spent will max out the current transfer cap on a paladin. Therefore, unless it's a completely non-trasnfering class, there should be no hate transfers onto the paladin other than amends and the amended target's transfer or what is used to fill in the last <10% by the next best transferer since anything beyond that will reduce the amount transfered based on overall dps performance.Is it any suprise the population is dramatically dwindling considering currently sks are so rediculous OPed and paladins can have a taste of the rediculous easy mode tanking by a simple betrayal? Not to mention the majority of the population screams for continuous nerfs on the paladins even though in general they are pretty well balanced and if absolutely anything are slightly underpowered purely because they are the single and solitary tank (not just of the plate variety, but of all tanks they are the only ones) that do not get a functioning anti spike damage control ability to help survive...There are only 3 things I would really like to see done to the paladins and you'll find that this is the same for the majority of the paladin community that remain loyal to the class and that these really are very fair requests.<ul><li>I want to see stonewall either have a 30% of max health restriction to make it function much like the guard/zerker ability nevermind the second proc. Another option is to give it multiple triggers to mitigate it getting proced on small reactives like thorns so it would function much like the warden's mythical clickie effect does. Otherwise, I'd simply like to see it changed into something that actually makes this ability worth spending 2 AA points on and worth not only using that chunk of precious power that we burn so fast but also merrit using the hotbar spot. Currently, it's not even worth 1 AA point, and borderline not worth the power or hotbar slot even if it was inherrently a free ability.</li><li>I want to see the stiffle removed from divine favor, or the heal amount drastically improved to merrit having that stiffle, or a middle ground of the two since as it stands divine favor is largely useless.</li><li>(Not really something I'm bent on balance wise since running with a decent healer means this wont be needed, but it's the point of it.) I want either the power cost removed from celestial touch or a power cost to be added to death touch. They are supposed to be mirror spells, meaning they SHOULD at minimum cost the same amount of power and pretty much paladins in general disregard any other unbalances like the huge amount of damage and double AA bonused life tap on death touch compared to a literally measly reduction in reuse time and another + 1k heal best case scenario for 5 points.</li></ul>

Kigneer

09-19-2009, 11:06 AM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is it any suprise the population is dramatically dwindling considering currently sks are so rediculous OPed and paladins can have a taste of the rediculous easy mode tanking by a simple betrayal? </blockquote>Oddly enough I've seen more and more Paladins of late. Even overheard someone mention they waited to play one of the "hardest classes" (and in truth, with all we have to do, it is a hard class to master. Folks just don't understand that unlike other tanks, we lost alot to have heals/wards, and the Amends was needed so we could hit/heal/ward to have similiar mit and all as the other tank classes. If we had to keep taunting like Guardians, there's no way we could do it all -- there isn't enough time to press that many buttons).Personally, stoneskin is nice, but I'd prefer some more dps, instead. Another +12 or something not game breaking, but enough to do more damage since damage is so associated with hate gain. It's sad to see my Dirge had more dps at level 22 than me at 80. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Maamadex

09-19-2009, 01:29 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oddly enough I've seen more and more Paladins of late. Even overheard someone mention they waited to play one of the "hardest classes" (and in truth, with all we have to do, it is a hard class to master. Folks just don't understand that unlike other tanks, we lost alot to have heals/wards, and the Amends was needed so we could hit/heal/ward to have similiar mit and all as the other tank classes. If we had to keep taunting like Guardians, there's no way we could do it all -- there isn't enough time to press that many buttons).Personally, stoneskin is nice, but I'd prefer some more dps, instead. Another +12 or something not game breaking, but enough to do more damage since damage is so associated with hate gain. It's sad to see my Dirge had more dps at level 22 than me at 80. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>We do perhaps give up some for our questionable benefit from heals/wards. You are perhaps referring to how the class evolved and why we have what we have now. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Paladin's are one of the hardest classes to play tho. Maybe difficult to understand at times but tanking is pretty straightforward and simple as a paladin, nobody uses actual taunts anyway except for filler or in our case to debuff the mob with our group taunt. No tanks consider taunts as being useful except when maestro is running maybe. We have a lot tools to deal with hate, and a gazillion ae's. Its a lot harder to play brawlers or a guardian. Summoners seem pretty difficult to get right too, I don't really know but I've met few people that actually play them well and the ones that do are amazing.Now as for um a 22 dirge having more +dps than a 80 paladin, that is an odd comparison. For one thats their group buff, that means nothing. Its not like the dirge by himself has all that extra dps. An extra +12 dps wouldn't mean doodley squat at 80. You can get +24 from adorns and most gear has dps on it anyway. I have 2 items with +10 dps on them. Granted I'd take something that made better sense but not that.

Terron

09-25-2009, 10:52 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>If we had to keep taunting like Guardians</blockquote>Eh? Guardians don't have to keep taunting. Our taunts don't do much compared to even our DPS. Our group taunt can be used when stunned and our single target taunt has a longer range than our CAs. Otherwise we are better off just DPS. We rely on hate transfers and boost to hold aggro, especially on multiple mobs. Without a couple of them we depend on our snap agrro tools for most encounters.

RafaelSmith

09-25-2009, 02:28 PM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>If we had to keep taunting like Guardians</blockquote>Eh? Guardians don't have to keep taunting. Our taunts don't do much compared to even our DPS. Our group taunt can be used when stunned and our single target taunt has a longer range than our CAs. Otherwise we are better off just DPS. We rely on hate transfers and boost to hold aggro, especially on multiple mobs. Without a couple of them we depend on our snap agrro tools for most encounters.</blockquote>Yeah only time I use taunts after the initial pull is when there is absolutely nothing else to press....otherwise every Taunt used when you could have used a DMG art is counter productive in terms of keeping aggro.

Juravael

10-13-2009, 12:22 AM

As for the original question...I prefer my Paladin over my old Berserker, for many reasons but versatility would have to be my main reason. I solo very well, group very well and MT instances very well. I have never been a MT on a raid, though I have stepped in when the MT went down. I'm not raid geared - T2 shard gear plus my Mythical but I held up alright ( long enough for the MT to get back into action ) but all credit for that goes to the healers.I have played a Berserker, Guardian, Shadowknight and Paladin ( all to the mid 70's and to 80 ) since November 2004 and out of the four I only have my Guardian and Paladin left. I ended up deleting my Shadowknight and Berserker earlier this year since it was pointless to have one of each and quite frankly, I enjoy the Guardian and Paladin much more. My main has been my Paladin for some time now and will remain my top choice.