Clearing up some common missconceptions.

[therodge]

<p>A couple misconceptions i would like to correct about the paladin class but first a couple facts.</p><p>a paladin is a crusader</p><p>a paladin has 8 AoEs</p><p>a paladin has a 41%(at master 1) hate transfer</p><p>a paladin has 3 agro snaps (sigil (which is an agro transfer) rescue and holy ground 4 if you count the end fighter line)</p><p>a paladin has one of the worst single target dps of the fighters (just of guardians) but comes in second or 3rd for aoe dps (sks beat us zerkers is debatable)</p><p>now for a few misconcepitions</p><p>Amends stacks with all agro transfers. False amends at master 1 can only reach the cap of 50% so if a coer/swash/dirge/assassin is in group we are capped anyway infact</p><p>Paladins can basically afk with amends false, its true amends does allow us to do zones without a perfect setup but without a flat hate increaser a paladin will struggle to hold agro against 2 or more high parsers (depending on gear just like other classess) though it is true we do have a leg up on guardians</p><p>paladins are better dps then 4 of the other fighters false, as stated earlier single target is fairly low myself struggleing to break 4-5k in teir two gear single target although aoe dps does edge out guardians and some of the more meh monks zerkers if equally skilled will flat out beat us (although not by a huge margin) and a bruiser is about the same)</p><p>now for a recent experement.</p><p>my paladin 182 aa teir 2 a few fabled jewlry spots and myth training dummy parse 3.2k (combined parse of 10)</p><p>my rather new guardian 150 aa teir 2 with tso jewlry and 2 peaces of fabled jewlry fabled epic 2.8k (cmbined parse of 10)</p><p>paladin group dirge illy swashy paladin defilier assassin zone OoA times lost agro 0</p><p>guardian group dirge illy swashy guardian defilier assassin zone OoA times lost agro 0</p><p>paladin(see group above) zone CoA tso times lost agro 1(assassin)</p><p>guardian (see group above) zone CoA tso times lost agro 5(swashy)</p><p>given these arnt 100% acurate because my paladin has a myth and more aa but its close</p><p>hope that clears some things up thanks</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>wow nerf palys <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Lleren]

<p>Next time try it without hate transfer and utility classes, or at least not so many.</p><p>In those groups a guard should be pretty much fine, that is not the type of setup that is being complaigned about.</p><p>Those are what a lot of guardians would call dream setups, ie gimme my dirge and a hate transfer and I'll be fine.</p>

[Atavax311]

<p>first off all, a masterii amends is available in you're 50's and has 42% why are we talking about the master i? wouldnt all pallies take the skill thats still usuable at 80?</p><p>i have heard of hate modifying cap, but not a hate transfer cap, probably because i dont have a pally. so i got a question lets say we have a assasin, corecer, dirge, and troub in a group with a pally and a healer. lets say the assasin is in  avatar gear and faully mastered. the corecer, dirge, and troub are t1 without even an fabled epic, just recently got to 80 and only have a handful of masters. the pally is basically the best you can get without tso raid, t2, mythical ect.</p><p>first of all, you said a pally cant hold aggro while afk. assuming he has amends on the assasin in the above scenario, and the assasin is transfering the cap, 50% of his hate; wouldnt his de-aggro abillities make him lower on the threat then the pally (im pretty sure de-aggros arent transfered), and wouldnt it be likely that with the rest of the dps having rather low dps because of their inferior gear compared to the sin, the pally would infact be able to tank afk?</p><p>next question. ok, you have the assasin, corc, and amends as hate transfer, the dirge as a hate modifer for the pally, and the troub with the hate modifier for the dps. assuming every player cast all of their hate buffs, how would the game decide how to split it to reach the cap? assuming that assasin and corc got their hate transfers out before the pally got amends off, would the assasin and corc both get the full benefit of their hate tansfers and then the remaining transfer until the cap would be the person the pally put amends on? or would the last one cast cancel the effect of the first? what about the hate modifer buffs? if i understood the OP, you said that they cap with the transfer.  if those were cast before or after the transfers, would they interfere by making the cap be reached pre-maturely and cause less of the transfers from working?</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Personally, my opinion is that paladins are exactly where all 6 tanks should be.  They're significantly less powerful than an SK, but are capable of holding aggro against both groups and single targets, and surviving just fine at the appropriate level of gear for both group and raid targets.</p><p>Paladins are really just right.  I'm not saying we all need amends (please don't!) and I like that fighters hold aggro in different ways, but I think that rather than screaming for paladins to be nerfed, they should up guardians, bruisers, and monks to where paladins are.  I think they're really at the sweet spot for where tanking should be without being overpowered.</p>

[Steve11418]

<p>Paladin Vs SKI have tanked all instances in various group makeup’s with a full T3 Myth Pally 200AA who betrayed to a SK and tanked them all again.SK has higher DPS than a Paladin.As a Paladin I had grater aggro management on single targets and groups less than 8 mobs… in particular mem wiping raid mobs were easier with reduced cast time on holy ground.Aggro was easier on a pally in non utility groupsAggro is easier with the Shadow knight in groups where 2 players are parsing very high (full utility groups) – Side note in full utility groups amends is almost useless due to 50% transfer cap and 50% hate gain cap.Swashbuckler 19% to 27% + Coercer 16% + wizard 4% = 47% transfer for any tank… in this example amends is worth 3% additional hate transfer. (It’s more complicated than that but cannot be bothered explaining)Shadow Knight has the ability to control an unlimited amount of mobs – Deathmarch gains initial aggro an ALL engaged mobs, Grave sacrament keeps ALL engaged mobs on him if within 25m so he can build aggro for 20sec.In comparison Holy Ground and Consecration is better but is limited to 8 mobs as that the maximum you can hit with pally AOE’s. I liked Holy ground for adds when the came halfway through the fight… HG likely being back up where DM and GS take much longer and likely still is down if used for initial aggro…. See guk zonesA myth Shadow Knight takes more damage than a Myth Paladin thanks to the awesome 10% damage reduction and 10% heal on the paladin Myth (this above all things may make me go back to a pally)A Shadow Knight has better spike protection and death save than a PaladinBloodletter < Divine FavourSiphon (EOF SK AA) < Stone Wall (TSO Pally AA)Divine Aura = Divine AuraFuror <<<<<<< than zip for pallyMyth Clicky on SK is also effective on Death touching mobs if timed.Paladin Group heal allows faster recovery from near fatal group aoe’sCurrent Assessment.Shadow Knight better than Paladin given full choice of utility to group with… although if you are in a small raid guild and cannot grantee a dirge or other utility class a Paladin will be a more versatile MT being able to hold aggro with less allowing rare utility class to go to DPS groups.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>therodge wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Paladins can basically afk with amends false, its true amends does allow us to do zones without a perfect setup but without a flat hate increaser a paladin will struggle to hold agro against 2 or more high parsers (depending on gear just like other classess) though it is true we do have a leg up on guardians</p></blockquote><p>Hate increaser also caps at 50%.  So you're maxing single target transfer at 41% and you get 10% hate increase from AA.</p><p>Warrior gets no transfer and a max of 8% hate increase from aa.</p><p>Your paladin gets to go o-stance and maximize his dps while still getting to use the block from your shield.  Your guardian has to lose the shield block in order to do the same thing.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>next question. ok, you have the assasin, corc, and amends as hate transfer, the dirge as a hate modifer for the pally, and the troub with the hate modifier for the dps. assuming every player cast all of their hate buffs, how would the game decide how to split it to reach the cap?</blockquote><p>As mentioned, passive hate transfers cap at 50% total, and anything over that is normalized across all transfers. So, let's say for example that you have the following scenario:</p><p>Paladin -> Brigand (42%)Assassin -> Paladin (19%)Coercer -> Paladin (17%)</p><p>That makes the total hate transfer to the Paladin 78%. This means that the actual amount of threat that is transferred is:</p><p>Brigand: 27%Assassin: 12%Coercer: 11%</p><p>So across the board, the Paladin is having less hate fed to him by each member so that the total never exceeds 50%. The one exception to this rule is Sigil of Heroism, which provides a temporary flat transfer of threat for a fixed period of time, and the cap doesn't figure into that.</p>

[Atavax311]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>next question. ok, you have the assasin, corc, and amends as hate transfer, the dirge as a hate modifer for the pally, and the troub with the hate modifier for the dps. assuming every player cast all of their hate buffs, how would the game decide how to split it to reach the cap?</blockquote><p>As mentioned, passive hate transfers cap at 50% total, and anything over that is normalized across all transfers. So, let's say for example that you have the following scenario:</p><p>Paladin -> Brigand (42%)Assassin -> Paladin (19%)Coercer -> Paladin (17%)</p><p>That makes the total hate transfer to the Paladin 78%. This means that the actual amount of threat that is transferred is:</p><p>Brigand: 27%Assassin: 12%Coercer: 11%</p><p>So across the board, the Paladin is having less hate fed to him by each member so that the total never exceeds 50%. The one exception to this rule is Sigil of Heroism, which provides a temporary flat transfer of threat for a fixed period of time, and the cap doesn't figure into that.</p></blockquote><p>ok, but say an corecer tansfers 17% the pally gives him amends, and a troub uses the negative hate transfer buff. and assuming no other class has a hate mod, that would mean that 50% of the corecer's hate goes to the pally, and then the corecer also has a negative 34% hate mod from the troub, which would make the corecer have 33% of the hate he started with, while the pally has 50%. which would mean the pally wouldnt have to press a single button to hold aggro from the corecer, correct? and then assuming all dps get -34% hate mod from the troub, 66% of their threat would just have to be less then 50% of the corecer's threat, for the pally hold aggro while afk.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>next question. ok, you have the assasin, corc, and amends as hate transfer, the dirge as a hate modifer for the pally, and the troub with the hate modifier for the dps. assuming every player cast all of their hate buffs, how would the game decide how to split it to reach the cap?</blockquote><p>As mentioned, passive hate transfers cap at 50% total, and anything over that is normalized across all transfers. So, let's say for example that you have the following scenario:</p><p>Paladin -> Brigand (42%)Assassin -> Paladin (19%)Coercer -> Paladin (17%)</p><p>That makes the total hate transfer to the Paladin 78%. This means that the actual amount of threat that is transferred is:</p><p>Brigand: 27%Assassin: 12%Coercer: 11%</p><p>So across the board, the Paladin is having less hate fed to him by each member so that the total never exceeds 50%. The one exception to this rule is Sigil of Heroism, which provides a temporary flat transfer of threat for a fixed period of time, and the cap doesn't figure into that.</p></blockquote><p>ok, but say an corecer tansfers 17% the pally gives him amends, and a troub uses the negative hate transfer buff. and assuming no other class has a hate mod, that would mean that 50% of the corecer's hate goes to the pally, and then the corecer also has a negative 34% hate mod from the troub, which would make the corecer have 33% of the hate he started with, while the pally has 50%. which would mean the pally wouldnt have to press a single button to hold aggro from the corecer, correct? and then assuming all dps get -34% hate mod from the troub, 66% of their threat would just have to be less then 50% of the corecer's threat, for the pally hold aggro while afk.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong.  If the Coercer keeps the -hate mod on it means that he is creating less hate which means less is transferred.  Its why a Pally will have an Amends target actually drop off any ability that gives that class less hate.  But if a Pally has increased Hate Mod it means they are creating more hate just by sitting there and if your best DPS class is channeling 50% hate to you, a Pally in theory could afk with auto attack on  to grab a sandwich while the group finishes off the mob.  But that is in theory and it never works out that way because your amends target could slack, could die, somebody else could spike some serious hate, etc. etc.  Amends is a great tool but really is no different than what any MT would have for hate transfers and hate buffs when it comes down to it.  It allows Paladins to be more versatile on their group make up.</p><p>Another misconception about the OPs misconceptions is that he states ST DPS for Paladins is low.  This is not true and a good Paladin with a similar set-up will parse close to SKs on ST mobs, and on short duration AE fights a Paladin will actually win because their AEs are burst damage while half of the SKs are DoT damage.</p><p>In total both Crusaders are sitting good atm, Warriors need a slight buff to agro and all 4 plate tanks will be sitting pretty good.  Hopefully, the fighter revamp doesn't throw everything out of whack again.</p>

[Kordran]

<p>I didn't specifically address the whole AFK tanking issue because it's ridiculous. You basically would have to have a scenario where the Paladin puts Amends on a class who transfers hate back to him, and no other hate transfers are used. That Amends target must then:</p><p>1. Always do more damage than any other class in the group at all times2. Must never be resisted, miss an attack, be riposted, blocked, stunned, stifled, dazed, etc.3. No group member can have anything that raises threat position (e.g.: Signet of Betrayal)4. The mob must never memwipe, blur, or perform forced target switches5. The Paladin must never be kicked/ported out of melee range of the mob</p><p>In other words, it's possible if your group is killing a training dummy. Aside from that, if that hypothetical Coercer gets a string of resists or the mob stuns them while the other groupmates are banging away at the mob, aggro is going to switch.</p><p>Bruener is right when he points out that what Amends gives the Paladin is flexibility; and throughout these discussions, that's the one significant difference between Crusaders and Warriors. Crusaders, because of their design, can be a lot of more flexible with "sub-optimal" group builds, while Warriors tend to need to be a lot more particular about group composition. But it's also true that this is only really an issue at the lower-to-middle end of the spectrum for these classses; at the high end, raiding tanks of all stripes really don't have these kinds of problems simply because gear allows them to overcome those limitations.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>I wouldnt mind seeing amends turned into like 25-30% but made raid wide.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wouldnt mind seeing amends turned into like 25-30% but made raid wide.</p></blockquote><p>Except that would make Amends seem OP'd.  Would basically allow Paladins the same type of hate from a MT group set-up with 3 healers that other tanks would receive with 2 healers and another transfer.</p><p>I think Amends is fine where it is at, and allows for that versatility that they enjoy...that is where the advantage should be for Paladins.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wouldnt mind seeing amends turned into like 25-30% but made raid wide.</p></blockquote><p>As someone who plays a raiding Paladin, I think that would be too much. It's fine as is, or it could even be reduced somewhat if that was in exchange for addressing some other issues (e.g.: Stonewall). With the aborted fighter revamp, I just didn't like their approach. If they are going to revisit Amends in the next expansion, I really hope they do something creative and interesting (in a good way), and not just turn it into Rescue v2.0.</p>

[Atavax311]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wrong.  If the Coercer keeps the -hate mod on it means that he is creating less hate which means less is transferred.  Its why a Pally will have an Amends target actually drop off any ability that gives that class less hate.  But if a Pally has increased Hate Mod it means they are creating more hate just by sitting there and if your best DPS class is channeling 50% hate to you, a Pally in theory could afk with auto attack on  to grab a sandwich while the group finishes off the mob.  But that is in theory and it never works out that way because your amends target could slack, could die, somebody else could spike some serious hate, etc. etc.  Amends is a great tool but really is no different than what any MT would have for hate transfers and hate buffs when it comes down to it.  It allows Paladins to be more versatile on their group make up.</p></blockquote><p>wrong, it is widely known hate mods dont effect hate transfer. hate transfer is added before the negative hate mod. it is why a guardian doesnt hesitate to moderate someone with hate transfer in their group, because the negative hate mod they give the dps does not effect the threat guardians receive from the hate transfer.</p><p>i agree amends doesnt reall help in MT role, its more of a 6-man thing.</p>

[Atavax311]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I didn't specifically address the whole AFK tanking issue because it's ridiculous. You basically would have to have a scenario where the Paladin puts Amends on a class who transfers hate back to him, and no other hate transfers are used. That Amends target must then:</p><p>1. Always do more damage than any other class in the group at all times2. Must never be resisted, miss an attack, be riposted, blocked, stunned, stifled, dazed, etc.3. No group member can have anything that raises threat position (e.g.: Signet of Betrayal)4. The mob must never memwipe, blur, or perform forced target switches5. The Paladin must never be kicked/ported out of melee range of the mob</p><p>In other words, it's possible if your group is killing a training dummy. Aside from that, if that hypothetical Coercer gets a string of resists or the mob stuns them while the other groupmates are banging away at the mob, aggro is going to switch.</p><p>Bruener is right when he points out that what Amends gives the Paladin is flexibility; and throughout these discussions, that's the one significant difference between Crusaders and Warriors. Crusaders, because of their design, can be a lot of more flexible with "sub-optimal" group builds, while Warriors tend to need to be a lot more particular about group composition. But it's also true that this is only really an issue at the lower-to-middle end of the spectrum for these classses; at the high end, raiding tanks of all stripes really don't have these kinds of problems simply because gear allows them to overcome those limitations.</p></blockquote><p>1. not at all times, just over a short period of time</p><p>2. attacks can be resisted and it still work fine, as long as its not a streak; tanks have things resisted all the time, every time a tank resists something, you dont see them losing aggro, only in the very beginning.</p><p>3. they can, if they arent 2nd on the hate list</p><p>4. this is the only problem, and the majority of mobs dont do this</p><p>5. if the pally was kicked, ported, knocked out of melee, would not the mob just chase him because he has aggro?</p><p>in other words its possible if one of the dps in the group is significantly better then the rest, which isnt uncommon at all.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wrong.  If the Coercer keeps the -hate mod on it means that he is creating less hate which means less is transferred.  Its why a Pally will have an Amends target actually drop off any ability that gives that class less hate.  But if a Pally has increased Hate Mod it means they are creating more hate just by sitting there and if your best DPS class is channeling 50% hate to you, a Pally in theory could afk with auto attack on  to grab a sandwich while the group finishes off the mob.  But that is in theory and it never works out that way because your amends target could slack, could die, somebody else could spike some serious hate, etc. etc.  Amends is a great tool but really is no different than what any MT would have for hate transfers and hate buffs when it comes down to it.  It allows Paladins to be more versatile on their group make up.</p></blockquote><p>wrong, it is widely known hate mods dont effect hate transfer. hate transfer is added before the negative hate mod. it is why a guardian doesnt hesitate to moderate someone with hate transfer in their group, because the negative hate mod they give the dps does not effect the threat guardians receive from the hate transfer.</p><p>i agree amends doesnt reall help in MT role, its more of a 6-man thing.</p></blockquote><p>Can we get some verification on this from the Paladin community because this is not widely known, and tbh I have trouble believing anything this guy posts.  The way I always understood it hate-mods count first and will hurt the amount of hate transferred to the Paladin.  Clearing this up would be much appreciated.</p>

[Atavax311]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Can we get some verification on this from the Paladin community because this is not widely known, and tbh I have trouble believing anything this guy posts.  The way I always understood it hate-mods count first and will hurt the amount of hate transferred to the Paladin.  Clearing this up would be much appreciated.</p></blockquote><p>some of the more reputable Guardians in eq2 flames commented on it.</p><p>Hate gets transferred and then moderate kicks in. Moderate doesn't lessen the amount of transferred hate. Pluses come before minuses! Not real hard to test and see tbh.</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/46513-guardian-revamp-starting-what-broken-6.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...t-broken-6.html</a></p><p>even if it doesnt, its not a big deal, all it would mean is its the dps's hate reducing abillities that would make him below the pally in threat, because those definately dont transfer.</p><p>its really easy to test if you have a pally, get a troub friend and corc friend, have the corc put hate tansfer on you, put amends on him, have the toub cast the hate mod, see what happens when you pull mobs...</p>

[Blu]

<p><cite>therodge wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Paladins can basically afk with amends false ...</p></blockquote><p>Hate to disagree here, but I was in a group where this exact thing happened.</p><p>Pally had to go AFK, so he put amends and autofollow on the warlock. Each fight, the warlock would build up massive hate for a few seconds, and then dehate. The warlock and healer were well-geared. I believe we were in Evernight. We fought many mobs, including group encounters and a named in this manner before the pally came back.</p><p>Considering the gear level, and that later (for fun) the warlock tanked most of Crucible with my avoid buff, it's probably not fair to say that this is possible on all gear levels, but it's certainly possible. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Edit: For the record, I don't have a problem with Amends. Just sharing an experience I had.</p>

[Kordran]

<p>I have no idea why I'm even bothering to debate this...</p>

[Atavax311]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have no idea why I'm even bothering to debate this...</p></blockquote><p> yeah, you shouldnt be debating it, because it does happen. and people's point isnt saying that Pallies can go afk whenever they want to. but that Pally tanking is too easy; 42% hate transfer is too much.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I have no idea why I'm even bothering to debate this...</blockquote><p>yeah, you shouldnt be debating it, because it does happen. and people's point isnt saying that Pallies can go afk whenever they want to. but that Pally tanking is too easy; 42% hate transfer is too much.</p></blockquote><p>Reduce it to 32%, or 24% or 16% ... and guess what? It would still be easy to hit the 50% cap. Bottom line however is that most raiding Paladins don't use Amends to hold aggro; I know that I don't need it. We use it as a hate sink (and that's its real value), not for "easy mode" aggro that we don't need in the first place.</p>

[Boli32]

<p>TBH; I would be happy if they removed amends and gave us a taunt DoT that could be cast through stuns; because in the end that's all amends generates and sometimes even less than that in a fully [Removed for Content] out group... plus it woudl stop every other tank class moaning its "so OPed".</p><p>Its an agro tool.... it isn't exactly the mission to mars of abilties; and as pointed out above it has many *many* drawbacks.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>In many games I've played, classes such as crusaders usually exemplify hate, while at the same time lacking the same survivability as a warrior type. As a result of that the warrior could tank better, take hits, but dps would have to understand he needed a bit to gain aggro. Plenty of warriors I know can tank fine and don't go oh god crusaders are overpowered /cry. You can't treat every tank the same. They work differently. I've tanked instances without amends to see, and I can hold aggro. In raids its even less of a problem. These posts are stupid.</p>

[Atavax311]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In many games I've played, classes such as crusaders usually exemplify hate, while at the same time lacking the same survivability as a warrior type. As a result of that the warrior could tank better, take hits, but dps would have to understand he needed a bit to gain aggro. Plenty of warriors I know can tank fine and don't go oh god crusaders are overpowered /cry. You can't treat every tank the same. They work differently. I've tanked instances without amends to see, and I can hold aggro. In raids its even less of a problem. These posts are stupid.</p></blockquote><p>im sorry, where did anyone say pallie's needed amends to hold aggro? i dont think i read that anywhere until you said that?</p><p>42% of their hate is nothing to trivialize. it is an extremely useful tool. depending on the gear and the make-up thats roughly 2k-20k per second assuming the person you cast it on doesnt have hate transfer. thats not bad, thats not trivial and it stays on the target until he or you leaves group or dies, so its pretty easy to use, cant ask for it to be much easier.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Not debating with you, almost everything you say is full of scorn, <span >derision and loathing for your own class. Have a good evening <img src="../images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></span></p>

[Atavax311]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not debating with you, almost everything you say is full of scorn, derision and loathing for your own class. Have a good evening <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>lol, nothing i've said has any scorn, derision, or loathing for my class :p i like my class :p thats why im playing the game.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Then why do you keep complaining about crusaders in almost everything you say?</p>

[Atavax311]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then why do you keep complaining about crusaders in almost everything you say?</p></blockquote><p>well, i havent complained about crusaders in this entire thread about pallies, now have i?</p>

[Atavax311]

<p>if you mean, why do i complain about crusaders at all. its because i am happy with my class the way it is. i dont want my class to be buffed to the status of easy mode, that crusaders are. if theres class imbalance, either balance needs to be restored or the lower performing class will become less popular and hard to form groups. balance is obviously desirable, and to balance the imbalance either my class needs to be changed, or the crusaders need to be changed. i am quite happy with my class, so i would prefer crusaders to be changed.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Don't you know, Atavax has an alterior motive to get all threads shut down in this section.</p><p>For somebody that is "happy" with his class he sure does have a lot of complaints about what he is missing out on.  Funny, cause Crusaders are mostly happy with their classes....are we out trying to get your abilities nerfed?</p>

[Atavax311]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Don't you know, Atavax has an alterior motive to get all threads shut down in this section.</p><p>For somebody that is "happy" with his class he sure does have a lot of complaints about what he is missing out on.  Funny, cause Crusaders are mostly happy with their classes....are we out trying to get your abilities nerfed?</p></blockquote><p>well, yours is the first flame in this thread. and because you always start the flaming, maybe its the other way around, maybe you're the one trying to shut down all these threads?</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Don't you know, Atavax has an alterior motive to get all threads shut down in this section.</p><p>For somebody that is "happy" with his class he sure does have a lot of complaints about what he is missing out on. Funny, cause Crusaders are mostly happy with their classes....are we out trying to get your abilities nerfed?</p></blockquote><p>well, yours is the first flame in this thread. and because you always start the flaming, maybe its the other way around, maybe you're the one trying to shut down all these threads?</p></blockquote><p>Well can you really blame him?  Its obvious to anyone with a few working brain cells that something is broken about SKs....so any fighter discussion beit one that starts out about Wariors or Brawlers or fighters in general will end up being about SKs because lets face it any fix to fighter balance will have to include toning down a class that im sorry to say is currenlty too good with regards to what a tank should be able to do.  </p><p>After a lot of re-thinking I have come to the conclusion that there really isnt anything wrong with Warriors......Ive recently had a chance to spend some time in groups as a Assassin...........and ive see that the real problem is that SK is easy-mode.....not so much with regards to playing the class itself....I actually believe SK is a hard class to actually master and play well...but its easy-mode for the rest of the group.  Playing an Assassin....the difference between grouping with a SK -vs- a Guard is night and day.  Its actually quite boring to group with an SK because I don't have to worry about anything besides seeing just how high I can parse.</p><p>So of course a SK will want them shut down....especailly one only cares about himself -vs- the overall health of the game.  I know I would <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Inc wall of text,I apologize, but it does cover a lot.</p><p><cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>therodge wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Paladins can basically afk with amends false ...</p></blockquote><p>Hate to disagree here, but I was in a group where this exact thing happened.</p><p>Pally had to go AFK, so he put amends and autofollow on the warlock. Each fight, the warlock would build up massive hate for a few seconds, and then dehate. The warlock and healer were well-geared. I believe we were in Evernight. We fought many mobs, including group encounters and a named in this manner before the pally came back.</p><p>Considering the gear level, and that later (for fun) the warlock tanked most of Crucible with my avoid buff, it's probably not fair to say that this is possible on all gear levels, but it's certainly possible. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Edit: For the record, I don't have a problem with Amends. Just sharing an experience I had.</p></blockquote><p>This is because the warlock knew how to play with a paladin's amends and manipulate the hate in the appropriate manner.  This is not the result of amends = afk tanking, this is the result of the warlock knowing [Removed for Content] they're doing and how to manage hate better than the vast majority of the dps world.</p><p><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>first of all, you said a pally cant hold aggro while afk. assuming he has amends on the assasin in the above scenario, and the assasin is transfering the cap, 50% of his hate; wouldnt his de-aggro abillities make him lower on the threat then the pally (im pretty sure de-aggros arent transfered), and wouldnt it be likely that with the rest of the dps having rather low dps because of their inferior gear compared to the sin, the pally would infact be able to tank afk?</p><p>next question. ok, you have the assasin, corc, and amends as hate transfer, the dirge as a hate modifer for the pally, and the troub with the hate modifier for the dps. assuming every player cast all of their hate buffs, how would the game decide how to split it to reach the cap? assuming that assasin and corc got their hate transfers out before the pally got amends off, would the assasin and corc both get the full benefit of their hate tansfers and then the remaining transfer until the cap would be the person the pally put amends on? or would the last one cast cancel the effect of the first? what about the hate modifer buffs? if i understood the OP, you said that they cap with the transfer.  if those were cast before or after the transfers, would they interfere by making the cap be reached pre-maturely and cause less of the transfers from working?</p></blockquote><p>The problem with amends is that it caps you very quickly in hate transfer.  This was not so when the "pali can afk" stereotype was created prior to the transfer cap being obtainable.  Key operative component in that statement is that it was made back when the cap was not 50% and the paladins that did afk tank did so with a total hate transfer of more than 50% and namely with a class that had a higher amount of <strong>hate</strong> (not necessarily higher dps) generated by the target than anyone else in group.</p><p>For example, say I were to run a group with a troub, coercer, assassin, brigand, my pali, and any healer.  The assassin transfers hate to me and has the highest dps, and I amend him, I could in theory (and in practice if the group knew how to play with a paladin which seems to be a rarity these days...) afk tank PURELY because of what is happening behind the scenes with the mechanics of hate gain.  The moment the coercer's hate transfer hits me, that statement is falsified because it will average down amends' transfer amount to equal out the transferred amount of hate and there will be openings for other members to pull agro based on how much dps/transfer the coercer has.  The problem with this mechanic is that it doesn't always average it in favor of giving you higher amounts of hate like it is supposed to and doesn't value all forms of hate gain the same as dps generated hate; namely healing hate, power regen hate, positional hate, dehate (which believe it or not does generate some hate), buff hate, absorption hate, script prompted hate, crit damage's double hate (this bug is no longer in the game's mechanics and hasn't been for a while but was used by some paladins to massively extreme levels of success), encounter gained hate by hostile action on an encounter linked ally (which also is no longer in the mechanics because the slated removal of this mechanic was in GU51 and since GU51 was canceled they of course pushed this change through anyway, and additionally it was not only a massive bonus to paladin aoe hate but what got warlocks killed every time they used rift and is why paladin+warlock worked so well), and some forms of threat based hate.</p><p>These reasons are why paladins get so aggitated when people who are uninformed state that amends is afk tanking.  These player's own lack of understanding of the hate system is what makes them unable to duplicate the amends afk tanking effect to as high of a degree of success as they may have seen or heard about, and the lack of understanding that there is knowledge and skill required to manipulate hate in order to turn amends into afk tanking.  Because of not knowing what is causing this to happen, most people percieve amends as being OPed and chalk amends up to being the sole reason paladins in certain situations are capable of afk tanking.  Amends is extremely OPed when there is an uncontested highest dpser in the group and there is no hate utility present.  Amends is severely underpowered and worthless when you have lots of hate utility and more than 1 dps that are competing neck and neck for the top of the parse.  Amends is a double edged sword since amends' presence has merrited the paladins having less active hate gain ability than other tanks or for that fact whats required to function in group.  Without amends, paladins are quite poor at maintaining steady hate unless they go full dps which will severely punish their survivability which is more important for them to maintain than it is for any other tank to maintain due to the fact that the paladin is the single and solitary tank that has no spike damage control/absorbtion ability spare one absorb useable every 1.5 minutes that will block either 5 damage or 15k damage equally as indescriminantly and is impossible to utilize to real effectiveness in a realistic tanking situation due to how many reactive damage procs/shields there are.</p><p>Just to throw in a random piece of irony on the whole afk tanking thing... you will rarely if ever see a paladin able to truely tank without a single form of heals B:CoA (to sell rapier loot rights), NHT (to sell NRoR loot rights), Crucible (to sell several different loot rights), etc and succeed without anyone in group dying.  You can find shadowknights doing it all day long on my server.  You will be hard pressed to see a paladin solo the entire shard of fear let alone within an hour, but i know of at least 5 shadowknights that do it every chance they get and do the whole zone in 15 - 30 minutes.  They are doing it purely to sell chokers for 100p a piece.  Which tank really has the easy mode and which tank is just getting flak/nerfed over nothing more than misinformation?</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>therodge wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Paladins can basically afk with amends false ...</p></blockquote><p>Hate to disagree here, but I was in a group where this exact thing happened.</p><p>Pally had to go AFK, so he put amends and autofollow on the warlock. Each fight, the warlock would build up massive hate for a few seconds, and then dehate. The warlock and healer were well-geared. I believe we were in Evernight. We fought many mobs, including group encounters and a named in this manner before the pally came back.</p><p>Considering the gear level, and that later (for fun) the warlock tanked most of Crucible with my avoid buff, it's probably not fair to say that this is possible on all gear levels, but it's certainly possible. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Edit: For the record, I don't have a problem with Amends. Just sharing an experience I had.</p></blockquote><p>This is because the warlock knew how to play with a paladin's amends and manipulate the hate in the appropriate manner.  This is not the result of amends = afk tanking, this is the result of the warlock knowing [Removed for Content] they're doing and how to manage hate better than the vast majority of the dps world.</p></blockquote><p>Absolutely.</p><p>Many veteran players DO NOT know how to work with Paladins. When the avatar killing tanks without a single Paladin in their roster don't grow a brain cell and claim our Resolute Faith is some lowbie spell (as it's level 60) and discard it, even more so (they don't have qualms with a level 25 master called Rescue, as they're used to it. But are absolutely clueless how Paladins work).</p><p>It takes a while for players to learn how Paladin tanks work as we have some many spells, and so many ways to take down mobs. If folks are duoers they'll learn it quite quick, but if they don't run into a group with a Pally MT or MA, they're clueless and claim things like "Paladins play in 'easy-mode'".</p><p>Amends only work on one player. If a group has a bad healer and and even worse high dpser (who thinks they can start a fight with their biggest buff/heal or ice comet), you will see how quickly how Amends won't work at all, no matter how many AAs are put in taunts/hate mods. If people keep promoting this misconception that Amends takes all the work, they will have a v-e-r-y rude awakening, as Amends works when the Pally has time to get his hate gain up (we're slower to gain hate, but once we have it, it's not coming off even without Amends [I often have to turn it off if another class is tanking, as I'll draw the hate from him]).</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Can we get some verification on this from the Paladin community because this is not widely known, and tbh I have trouble believing anything this guy posts.  The way I always understood it hate-mods count first and will hurt the amount of hate transferred to the Paladin.  Clearing this up would be much appreciated.</p></blockquote><p>some of the more reputable Guardians in eq2 flames commented on it.</p><p>Hate gets transferred and then moderate kicks in. Moderate doesn't lessen the amount of transferred hate. Pluses come before minuses! Not real hard to test and see tbh.</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/46513-guardian-revamp-starting-what-broken-6.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...t-broken-6.html</a></p><p>even if it doesnt, its not a big deal, all it would mean is its the dps's hate reducing abillities that would make him below the pally in threat, because those definately dont transfer.</p><p>its really easy to test if you have a pally, get a troub friend and corc friend, have the corc put hate tansfer on you, put amends on him, have the toub cast the hate mod, see what happens when you pull mobs...</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, that's something of a problem in EQ2flames.  All it needs is for one "Reputable" person to say something and no-one questions it.  Those of us who actually take time to test how game mechanics work have come to the conclusion that hate mods are applied <em>before</em> transfers, source:  <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/47956-moderate-test-no-flames-pls.html" target="_blank">Here</a>.</p><p>You're both right, it's easy to test and yet <em>no-one</em> ever did it.  If Transfers applied before mods then the guardian would be displaying a value of hate at around 26 on the hate-meter.</p><p>As far as the primary subject is concerned:</p><p>1)  Amends may not stack but that fairly moot really, it still allows a paladin to cap transfer very very easily, and allows them to focus that transfer on one person.  My Guard recieves transfers from 3 sources (Coercer, Assassin/Swashy and that little piddling one from Wizzy/Warlocks), spread out among three people such that each of those three requires hate decreasers applied.  Reducing the effect of my (already smaller) transfer amount.  A pally does not have this problem and can get the full 50% out of the assassin/coercer in the group and thus the person who gets that 50% transfer need not worry about applying hate decreasers as it is impossible for them to get aggro, assuming the paladin is auto-attacking.  That means you really do get 50% transfer, while any transfer inc to a guard/zerk (or even a SK) will be reduced by the needed hate reducers.</p><p>2)  It's called exaggeration.  From the point of view of a class that has to fight every moment of a group to hold aggro effectively it seems that paladins can amble through life with auto-bash on.</p><p>3)  Comparative DPS depends on the situation.  My guard now does about 7500dps against trash, with a good group setup.  That's in full offensive mode; no shield, all geared swapped for crits and DA, offensive stance.  Our paladin does about 6500-7000 with approximately the same gear (though a bit better luck with TSO patterns) but he does that with a shield.  The thing is that my dps drops to 3-4k on hard nameds while his maybe only drops to 4-5k.  Paladins can do more dps when it matters, they have extensive AAs to increase sword and board dps and hit rates.  AAs that guards do not get.</p><p>In your test I'd expect the guard to beat you for dps against the dummy if he had a myth and acceptable off-hand weapon simply because the Guard has greater capacity for dps than the Paladin with our ability to dual-wield.  But a paladin can achieve almost the same dps level while maintaining a far far higher survivability.  And they have amends which will more than make up for a 2k difference in dps.</p><p>What would help guards:  Hit rate increase.  Ours sucks and auto-attack is >50% of our hate.  Our hate generation needs to be more reliable, not necessarily all that much larger.</p><p>Greater utility for our survivability buffs:  We temp buff mit, completely pointless.  Make it either avoidance or (preferrably) make it a set mit percentage.  say 4-5% on each of our temp buffs.</p><p>And just so that I don't keep pulling my hair out when doing group content, something to make using our taunts worthwhile?  (Not that stupidly overpowered 12k taunt crap that we're almost certainly to get)</p><p>Why was it that crusaders got all the sword and shield focussed AAs?  I thought the whole point of guards was bloke in heavy armour behind a tower shield.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Sword and Shield focused aa's? I can only think of one. If you are talking about Knight's Stance I would think we got it simply because we can't dual wield, and 2 handers are an absolute joke.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sword and Shield focused aa's? I can only think of one. If you are talking about Knight's Stance I would think we got it simply because we can't dual wield, and 2 handers are an absolute joke.</p></blockquote><p>Pretty sure that was the reason for giving Crusaders Knights Stance.</p><p>The problem is that currently Crusaders are able to fufill whatever DPS they need for aggro without having to sacrifice the surviveability of a shield.</p><p>I cant speak too mucb about Paladins because I have not had the opportunity to raid/group with them much.....But I do know that our SK puts out way more DPS/Aggro with 1h/shield than I can with Duel Wield and wearing every bit of DPS gear I have.  So the whole "surviveability" advantage Guards are suppose to have over SK goes out the window.</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sword and Shield focused aa's? I can only think of one. If you are talking about Knight's Stance I would think we got it simply because we can't dual wield, and 2 handers are an absolute joke.</p></blockquote><p>Admittedly it applies more to SKs than Paladins.</p><p>Knight's Stance</p><p>Dark Knight's Protection</p><p>and, to a certain extent Malevolent Protection.</p><p>Knight's Stance is nice because it is essentially a unique buff that doesn't run into any stacking issues.</p><p>Dark Knight's Protection is very nice because it deals with a massive problem when trying to hold aggro in defensive stance; hit rates.</p><p>Oh yes, and you also get Shield Effectiveness coming out of your ears.  Paladins get, what, 39% shield effectiveness (spending 7 points)?  SKs come out a close second with 30% (but having to pay 10 AA for it).  What do us "defensive" Guards get?  12%.  For 8 AA points.  Sweet.</p><p>Really, if Guards are supposed to DW to get the "best" out of the class then just merge us into zerkers and be done with it, at least we'll get a death-save worth using.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>What do paladin's have for spike damage prevention? Have you looked at that? I agree there are some uneven bonuses as per each of the fighter classes. We do have some shield effectiveness bonuses to make up perhaps for several things. I'm just not sure sony really cares about any kind of balance anymore, it all seems pretty haphazard and random. Stonewall is still the biggest joke of an endline aa that exists, and I've yet to hear anything at all about that being looked at and it irritates me no end.</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What do paladin's have for spike damage prevention? Have you looked at that? I agree there are some uneven bonuses as per each of the fighter classes. We do have some shield effectiveness bonuses to make up perhaps for several things. I'm just not sure sony really cares about any kind of balance anymore, it all seems pretty haphazard and random. Stonewall is still the biggest joke of an endline aa that exists, and I've yet to hear anything at all about that being looked at and it irritates me no end.</p></blockquote><p>Yet again SKs get more of it than Paladins.  Yet still it's fairly extensive:</p><p>Both:  Divine Aura</p><p>A Deathsave worth using (SK deathsave is infinitely more useful than Paladin one however).</p><p>Paladin:  Stonewall (Exact equivalent to Guard Block ability, a bit lame for a TSO ender though)</p><p>SK:  Shadowknight's Furore</p><p>I dunno, maybe some people would include Holy Touch as a spike "oh noes" button, but I'll leave it out cos the heal isn't massive and it has a 15 minute recast.</p><p>Guards have Tower of Stone and Block to use as spike damage PANIC buttons.  Stone Sphere operates so slowly that it has to be used pre-emptively and really just gives the healers a bit of an easier time for 30 seconds and our two mit buffs may as well not exist really, thanks to the massive amount of uncontested +mit on tank sets taking us well into the flat part of the diminishing returns curve.  And Defensive Minded.  20% Dodge is pretty useful for panic situations though many tanks just use it whenever it's up for the large casting/reuse buff.</p><p>All that said spike damage is far less important in TSO so far as I've seen.  Crit Mit will negate most spike damage now, and lots of crit mit will almost remove any spikes at all.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All that said spike damage is far less important in TSO so far as I've seen.  Crit Mit will negate most spike damage now, and lots of crit mit will almost remove any spikes at all.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong.  Spike damage is really the most important part to TSO raiding.  Crit mit and mit are easily capped, what does that leave?  SPIKE DAMAGE.  Really other than that it is about snap agro.</p><p>Guards are still the kings of taking spike damage.  Other tanks have been giving some nice tools that they have been lacking for way too long to deal with spike damage...it only took like 3 xpacs to get what was coming.  Spike damage is exactly why Brawlers have a harder time.  Thier Mit can get way up there, their crit mit is easy to max, and their avoidance is the best...and yet they have less tools to handle spike damage...especially with strike-through.</p><p>Snap agro.  Once again other tanks were finally given more snaps to help handle agro...something that was lacking.  Guards still have fantastic snap agro, reinforcement still probably being the best ability out there to handle ST agro.  Pretty long duration and a pretty fast recast.</p><p>Anyhow, Paladins are not lacking at all.  Great agro, great snap with HG, good spike damage control, and despite what a lot of people say they parse pretty good at the high end, only slightly behind SKs.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>I didn't say paladin's were in bad shape, but there are a lot of abilities and aa's that need looking at. Just take a glance at Boli's post on paladin issues. Every tank class has a few things that need addressing.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>therodge wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Paladins can basically afk with amends false, its true amends does allow us to do zones without a perfect setup but without a flat hate increaser a paladin will struggle to hold agro against 2 or more high parsers (depending on gear just like other classess) though it is true we do have a leg up on guardians</p></blockquote><p>Wanting to highlight this, especially for those who think Amends is "easy-mode" tanking.</p><p>Paladins do have better tools in TSO to handle hate better, but we can still lose hate -- as any other tank. This is especially true if there 2 high dpser classes in a group, with an anxious healer (nightmare situation).</p><p>Even with Amends off, a T2/fabled Pally can steal hate from a T4 geared/mythed Guard. Something to keep in mind when a Guard is the MT in TSO (especially if they gripe through a dungeon about it).</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All that said spike damage is far less important in TSO so far as I've seen.  Crit Mit will negate most spike damage now, and lots of crit mit will almost remove any spikes at all.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong.  Spike damage is really the most important part to TSO raiding.  Crit mit and mit are easily capped, what does that leave?  SPIKE DAMAGE.  Really other than that it is about snap agro.</p></blockquote><p>Bloodletter x2</p><p>Paladins get effectively a 20% damage reduction off of myth.</p><p>Spike damage on crusaders generally isn't a problem once they have gear.  So once you get things on farm status, crusader is far better to bring than a guard.</p><p>Also, it really, really isn't about snap aggro, but even if it were crusaders have more effective snaps than guardians.  In truth its about sustained hate generation with enough snaps to deal with aggro wiping mobs.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All that said spike damage is far less important in TSO so far as I've seen.  Crit Mit will negate most spike damage now, and lots of crit mit will almost remove any spikes at all.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong.  Spike damage is really the most important part to TSO raiding.  Crit mit and mit are easily capped, what does that leave?  SPIKE DAMAGE.  Really other than that it is about snap agro.</p></blockquote><p>Bloodletter x2</p><p>Paladins get effectively a 20% damage reduction off of myth.</p><p>Spike damage on crusaders generally isn't a problem once they have gear.  So once you get things on farm status, crusader is far better to bring than a guard.</p><p>Also, it really, really isn't about snap aggro, but even if it were crusaders have more effective snaps than guardians.  In truth its about sustained hate generation with enough snaps to deal with aggro wiping mobs.</p></blockquote><p>Any tank in a tanking group has plenty of hate generation.  Its all about snapping those mobs that do get loose from mem-wipe or from the over-zealous wizard that drops fission or something on incoming.</p><p>The above you mentioned are great for both spike damage and regular damage.  Spike damage in gerenal though is usually what is going to kill a tank.  Too much damage too fast.  Things like Death touches or mobs DA'ing.</p><p>So you listed the Crusader spike damage controls are you going to list what warriors receive too?  You know, ToS, Adrenaline, etc.</p><p>Most tanks have great tools to help with spike damage.  Really Brawlers are the ones that have serious trouble with it.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Bloodletter x2</p><p>Paladins get effectively a 20% damage reduction off of myth.</p><p>Spike damage on crusaders generally isn't a problem once they have gear.  So once you get things on farm status, crusader is far better to bring than a guard.</p><p>Also, it really, really isn't about snap aggro, but even if it were crusaders have more effective snaps than guardians.  In truth its about sustained hate generation with enough snaps to deal with aggro wiping mobs.</p></blockquote><p>Any tank in a tanking group has plenty of hate generation.  Its all about snapping those mobs that do get loose from mem-wipe or from the over-zealous wizard that drops fission or something on incoming.</p><p>The above you mentioned are great for both spike damage and regular damage.  Spike damage in gerenal though is usually what is going to kill a tank.  Too much damage too fast.  Things like Death touches or mobs DA'ing.</p><p>So you listed the Crusader spike damage controls are you going to list what warriors receive too?  You know, ToS, Adrenaline, etc.</p><p>Most tanks have great tools to help with spike damage.  Really Brawlers are the ones that have serious trouble with it.</p></blockquote><p>Sure, warriors get spike damage tools as well, my point is all plate tanks do.</p><p>The plate tank that ultimately wins out as being the best is the one with the best sustained aggro generation. Hands down that belongs to crusader atm, and my personal belief its on the SK side of the fence, but I've seen some amazing paladin generation as well.</p><p>For my warrior to get even 80% of the sk hate generation potential, I have to use DW and offensive stance.  Guess what, I just lost  my spike damage tools in order to get only a percentage of crusader hate generation potential.</p><p>I wont discuss brawlers in raid tanking scenarios as I don't like to talk about fiction <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All that said spike damage is far less important in TSO so far as I've seen. Crit Mit will negate most spike damage now, and lots of crit mit will almost remove any spikes at all.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong. Spike damage is really the most important part to TSO raiding. Crit mit and mit are easily capped, what does that leave? SPIKE DAMAGE. Really other than that it is about snap agro.</p></blockquote><p>Bloodletter x2</p><p>Paladins get effectively a 20% damage reduction off of myth.</p><p>Spike damage on crusaders generally isn't a problem once they have gear. So once you get things on farm status, crusader is far better to bring than a guard.</p><p>Also, it really, really isn't about snap aggro, but even if it were crusaders have more effective snaps than guardians. In truth its about sustained hate generation with enough snaps to deal with aggro wiping mobs.</p></blockquote><p>Any tank in a tanking group has plenty of hate generation. Its all about snapping those mobs that do get loose from mem-wipe or from the over-zealous wizard that drops fission or something on incoming.</p><p>The above you mentioned are great for both spike damage and regular damage. Spike damage in gerenal though is usually what is going to kill a tank. Too much damage too fast. Things like Death touches or mobs DA'ing.</p><p>So you listed the Crusader spike damage controls are you going to list what warriors receive too? You know, ToS, Adrenaline, etc.</p><p>Most tanks have great tools to help with spike damage. Really Brawlers are the ones that have serious trouble with it.</p></blockquote><p>True in a raid setting whoever is the MT should have plenty of hate generation....that said a SK does not require as much of it.  On our raids we have experimented alot with various group setups.  Our SK is obviously our MT....but we actually have ended up with more hate xfer on me in the OT group than on him and it works about equal....He can keep at #1 and I can ride close to him at #2.</p><p>As far as dealing with spike DMG.......there is a difference between what looks good on paper or in the persona/examine window and what actually ends up most effective in game.  Bloodletter is far far far far far more effective than something like ToS.</p><p>And with the way gear was done in TSO.....no plate tank has any advantage when it comes to Crit Mit...we all have the same.</p><p>Grave Sacrament in practice is far more effective than Reinforcements.......even considering the fact that Reinforcements "looks" better due to its better reuse.</p><p>In the end Guard really does not have any better surviveability tools than SK.......while SK has massively better threat and DPS.   I know our SK and myself take turns often at MT and he dies far far less than I do against the same mobs...with the same healers, etc.....while on paper and in terms of what we see in our persona windows we should be about the same.</p><p>And thats just about raids..where I think for the most part things are fine for any of the plates.</p><p>Now step out of that controlled box that is raiding into grouping/instances and there simply is no comparison.....SK is vastly superior in each and every aspect of tanking......aggro generation being of course the most critical.  Guard "unique" tools or abilities are meaningless in the majority of heroic content.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wont discuss brawlers in raid tanking scenarios as I don't like to talk about fiction <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=557147108" target="_blank">Splorchess</a>.  Nonfiction.  Accept it or don't make foolish statements like brawlers not being able to MT.</p>

[Dechau]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wont discuss brawlers in raid tanking scenarios as I don't like to talk about fiction <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=557147108" target="_blank">Splorchess</a>.  Nonfiction.  Accept it or don't make foolish statements like brawlers not being able to MT.</p></blockquote><p>Is he MT, or just MT when their official MT is afk??</p><p>All Brawlers can MT a raid from time to time, but it takes a dedicate Guild to have the official MT be a Brawler for sure..</p><p>Hats of if Nonfiction has that for sure..</p><p>What server are they on ?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wont discuss brawlers in raid tanking scenarios as I don't like to talk about fiction <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Because there is not full videos of brawlers tanking avatars and spiking less then you will ever do on a raid mob right?</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wont discuss brawlers in raid tanking scenarios as I don't like to talk about fiction <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=557147108" target="_blank">Splorchess</a>.  Nonfiction.  Accept it or don't make foolish statements like brawlers not being able to MT.</p></blockquote><p>i went an looked ath Splorchess gear and stuff and i think any tank can tank with t4+ gear. the thing is most dont have most t4+ gear. i see where you are coming from though, but it takes high ended gear to do it for a brawler.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>He MTed for his guild for at minimum the entirety of the last 2 expansions.  I'm pretty sure he didn't have T4 in the tail end of EoF, or throughout all of RoK or the very start of TSO.  He's not the end all beat all best tank I've ever run with, but is one of the top 3 tanks comparatively that I've ever run with (which include individuals such as Joram, Porkchawp when he was still MTing, Onra, Bashu, Meshuggah, Irumi, and a slew of others that are pretty good at doing what they do.)  Considering that PoF is on my list of casual pick up instances it's pretty fair to say that the zones and content I run with these folks isn't your every day scion of ice group, and definately a step above our weekly one grouping PR.  Considering splorchess does a pick up VP clear every couple weeks with 2 - 3 groups of non-raiders that have never been in VP just to get them myth updates for free, and weekly one group/solo healer slaughters (with 2 or 3 casual non-raiders to get them aa, and another being his boxed dirge) the dominous' and rime epics for kicks, I think it's pretty fair to also say that this guy is not just any brawler in T4.</p><p>My point is that there are people that can do what ever they want to do because they are that good.  Just because most brawlers either aren't good enough or don't know how to or are dedicated enough to MT does not mean that it can't be done or that it's even that out of reach.  Sure MTing with a brawler is harder than with a plate tank, but thats because most people don't understand how to play a brawler tank let alone run with one including healers, dps, and utility alike, just like the vast majority of players don't understand how to play well with paladins amends.  If you don't know how to play with said tank class, not knowing how to support them will make their job much harder if not impossible.</p><p>Additionally, if ANY tank class can tank just fine in T4 armor that prior to getting it couldn't tank for beans, that means since SOE has stated that any tank should be a viable tank class just in different ways (back durring the fighter revamp) something is really broken and/or out of balance in the tanking mechanics (as many have been saying for a long time), and the problem is even more so compounded if the T4 armor is infact able to mitigate or negate the break point a class has that are making them unable to function as intended.</p><p>It may take high end gear for most brawlers to tank let alone MT, but theres one thats been doing it for a much longer time than T4 has been around and he even managed to make it work even when the brawlers did not have nearly the level of itemization as they do now and even with the larger selection currently it <span style="text-decoration: underline;">still</span> is less than what plate gets to chose from.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Nerf brawlers.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Aull]

<p>Brawlers don't need any help. They can already do everything and need no further advancements of any kind. They are superior to all. This is why brawlers have never seen nor will see any modifications or posts from devs. Ever!! Why hasn't anyone playing brawlers caught onto this yet?</p><p>Brawlers dominate. Period. Got a heavy aoe zone? Then just bring a MC non-mythed brawler and watch a shredding take place. If you are blessed with a t4 fabled/myth brawler then anyone in the group can just auto follow and go watch you tube while the overpoweredness of the brawler becomes manifest. They are that wicked. The other night a single group did WOE with a monk tanking. The group consised of a necro, conjy, fury, warden, conjy, and the monk. Tell me what other tank (besides a bruiser) could do that??</p><p>On the other hand the plate tanks are lagging so far behind that something needs to be done. Sk's are absolutely the best plate fighter but that isn't say much at all. Plate tanks need more dps, survivability, group utility, and better aoe's. It is a total pity seeing the warriors and crusaders begging to be tanks in channel to the point that leaving the channel is the only way to get peace.</p><p> Edited: Sorry daydreaming at work.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Brawlers don't need any help. They can already do everything and need no further advancements of any kind. They are superior to all. This is why brawlers have never seen nor will see any modifications or posts from devs. Ever!! Why hasn't anyone playing brawlers caught onto this yet?</p><p>Brawlers dominate. Period. Got a heavy aoe zone? Then just bring a MC non-mythed brawler and watch a shredding take place. If you are blessed with a t4 fabled/myth brawler then anyone in the group can just auto follow and go watch you tube while the overpoweredness of the brawler becomes manifest. They are that wicked. The other night a single group did WOE with a monk tanking. The group consised of a necro, conjy, fury, warden, conjy, and the monk. Tell me what other tank (besides a bruiser) could do that??</p><p>On the other hand the plate tanks are lagging so far behind that something needs to be done. Sk's are absolutely the best plate fighter but that isn't say much at all. Plate tanks need more dps, survivability, group utility, and better aoe's. It is a total pity seeing the warriors and crusaders begging to be tanks in channel to the point that leaving the channel is the only way to get peace.</p><p> Edited: Sorry daydreaming at work.</p></blockquote><p>I could respond to that, but I stopped being 4 along time ago and thus, cannot justify reverting to that level.</p><p>You completely missed the entire point.  Congratulations.</p><p>Tanking is very gear dependant and by no means am I saying that the brawlers are perfect or that they couldn't use some help in some places, but I am saying that they are not completely broken like alot of uniformed players claim they are.  For being so "broken" theres a perfect example of someone that raised above the crying and whining and made it work and has for a long time now and has become a shining example of the tanking community plate or leather alike.  All of the excuses of why he couldn't MT as a brawler never stopped him, probably because he isn't an inferrior player that posts snarky sarcastic comments on the forums and had the determination to learn how to make his class work regardless of the opposition and barriers he came up against.</p><p>I could cry and whine in the forums about not being easy mode OPed SK all day long and use that as my justification for not getting off my backside long enough to help myself, but I chose to gear myself up rather than complaining regardless of the fact that it took many months and hundreds of instance runs that were far from flawless.  Despite having less spike damage prevention tools than the brawlers, and despite having inferrior dps which is currently the best and only real way to generate agro which translates into inferrior hate <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>gain</strong></span>, and the main form of hate for my class being a hate transfer that gets easily capped out by any group with utility of any degree and is highly misunderstood which therefore causes snags and group instability on almost an hourly basis even more so when there is 2 nearly even hate generators in the group... I still sought out ways to counter my classes problems, limitations, and design restrictions and not only learned how to play him well, but also made my paladin capable of tanking in most situations I throw him into.  Of course the only reason I managed that was because I didn't spend my time crying in the forums about it waiting to be handed the easy button.</p><p>Pointing out that there are individuals that are perfectly capable of functioning and fullfilling their role should be a motivating factor to wipe the failsauce off, get up, and try again because that is part of being a tank regardless of leather or plate.  Thats what splorchess undoubtably had to do many many times just like all tanks invarriably have to in order to fully learn their class.  If you have survivability issues, welcome to the club and learn to counter it.</p><p>"You're a (brawler), heal yourself.  Your squishier, so you got heals."  The paladins get told that all the time despite the fact that they get gimpy heals that are barely enough to mitigate the incoming damage from solo mobs let alone heroics.  Sure I could put on full templar gear and probably be almost what a MC healer is, but you can't swap gear in mid fight anymore and not sure if anyone noticed, but paladins do have to actually cast the majority of their heals so tanking and actually healing enough to dent the incoming damage is out of the question.  Paladin heals are enough to save them for maybe a few seconds which is no better than the brawlers heals, but you still see the paladins getting flak for the fact that they have the "massively OPed ability to heal themselves".</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Brawlers don't need any help. They can already do everything and need no further advancements of any kind. They are superior to all. This is why brawlers have never seen nor will see any modifications or posts from devs. Ever!! Why hasn't anyone playing brawlers caught onto this yet?</p><p>Brawlers dominate. Period. Got a heavy aoe zone? Then just bring a MC non-mythed brawler and watch a shredding take place. If you are blessed with a t4 fabled/myth brawler then anyone in the group can just auto follow and go watch you tube while the overpoweredness of the brawler becomes manifest. They are that wicked. The other night a single group did WOE with a monk tanking. The group consised of a necro, conjy, fury, warden, conjy, and the monk. Tell me what other tank (besides a bruiser) could do that??</p><p>On the other hand the plate tanks are lagging so far behind that something needs to be done. Sk's are absolutely the best plate fighter but that isn't say much at all. Plate tanks need more dps, survivability, group utility, and better aoe's. It is a total pity seeing the warriors and crusaders begging to be tanks in channel to the point that leaving the channel is the only way to get peace.</p><p> Edited: Sorry daydreaming at work.</p></blockquote><p>I could respond to that, but I stopped being 4 along time ago and thus, cannot justify reverting to that level.</p><p>You completely missed the entire point.  Congratulations.</p><p>Tanking is very gear dependant and by no means am I saying that the brawlers are perfect or that they couldn't use some help in some places, but I am saying that they are not completely broken like alot of uniformed players claim they are.  For being so "broken" theres a perfect example of someone that raised above the crying and whining and made it work and has for a long time now and has become a shining example of the tanking community plate or leather alike.  All of the excuses of why he couldn't MT as a brawler never stopped him, probably because he isn't an inferrior player that posts snarky sarcastic comments on the forums and had the determination to learn how to make his class work regardless of the opposition and barriers he came up against.</p><p>I could cry and whine in the forums about not being easy mode OPed SK all day long and use that as my justification for not getting off my backside long enough to help myself, but I chose to gear myself up rather than complaining regardless of the fact that it took many months and hundreds of instance runs that were far from flawless.  Despite having less spike damage prevention tools than the brawlers, and despite having inferrior dps which is currently the best and only real way to generate agro which translates into inferrior hate <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>gain</strong></span>, and the main form of hate for my class being a hate transfer that gets easily capped out by any group with utility of any degree and is highly misunderstood which therefore causes snags and group instability on almost an hourly basis even more so when there is 2 nearly even hate generators in the group... I still sought out ways to counter my classes problems, limitations, and design restrictions and not only learned how to play him well, but also made my paladin capable of tanking in most situations I throw him into.  Of course the only reason I managed that was because I didn't spend my time crying in the forums about it waiting to be handed the easy button.</p><p>Pointing out that there are individuals that are perfectly capable of functioning and fullfilling their role should be a motivating factor to wipe the failsauce off, get up, and try again because that is part of being a tank regardless of leather or plate.  Thats what splorchess undoubtably had to do many many times just like all tanks invarriably have to in order to fully learn their class.  If you have survivability issues, welcome to the club and learn to counter it.</p><p>"You're a (brawler), heal yourself.  Your squishier, so you got heals."  The paladins get told that all the time despite the fact that they get gimpy heals that are barely enough to mitigate the incoming damage from solo mobs let alone heroics.  Sure I could put on full templar gear and probably be almost what a MC healer is, but you can't swap gear in mid fight anymore and not sure if anyone noticed, but paladins do have to actually cast the majority of their heals so tanking and actually healing enough to dent the incoming damage is out of the question.  Paladin heals are enough to save them for maybe a few seconds which is no better than the brawlers heals, but you still see the paladins getting flak for the fact that they have the "massively OPed ability to heal themselves".</p></blockquote><p>My post was not intended to be a flame but rather an expression of humor. Personally I am just beat atm and tired of reading the same ole repeated suggestions over and over (mine included) about what fighters need. A little less talk and alot more action is all I wish to see from SOE. Fighters need it now and not five months from now.</p><p>I could be wrong but I think many of the players that are posting here in the general fighter forum are waiting for "something new" to happen. Other than that I think everything that could be stated has been submitted on the forums and many are great ideas.</p><p>I don't know of anything else that can really be posted here until something new comes about.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I could respond to that, but I stopped being 4 along time ago and thus, cannot justify reverting to that level.<p>You completely missed the entire point.  Congratulations.</p><p><em><strong>You completely missed his obvious sarcasm as it sailed over your head. Gratz.</strong></em></p></blockquote>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and not sure if anyone noticed, but paladins do have to actually cast the majority of their heals so tanking and actually healing enough to dent the incoming damage is out of the question.  Paladin heals are enough to save them for maybe a few seconds which is no better than the brawlers heals, but you still see the paladins getting flak for the fact that they have the "massively OPed ability to heal themselves".</p></blockquote><p>Thanks for pointing out this tidbit.</p><p>As soon as some healers see Paladins they immediately think, "they can heal themselves" and forget our heals are to suppliment theirs, not as a means to keep ourselves up totally (except on mentored runs, were a Pally could keep the whole group alive with their group heal). And since we do have heals, everytime we're using them, we're not taunting or hitting the boss/mob. In harder groups and raids, I use my heals on the MT as it's often the Lay on Hands is the spike heal that saves him, but it's a sacrifice as the healers think I'll use it to keep myself up. Furthermore, the Pally rarely gets credit for this anyway, since it's so hidden behind the healers spells, and they're praised for keeping the MT alive. Only time a Paladin's heal is noteworthy on their parser, is when they have to Resurrect someone (like a dead MT) where it can be 12+K, as they're revived with 100+% health.</p><p>BUT, Paladins are a v-e-r-y balanced class. Nothing overpowering in their lineup. Everything is to suppliment with other classes. Playing a Paladin is never "easy-mode", anyone claiming so never played a Paladin to it's full potential.</p>

[Dechau]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BUT, Paladins are a v-e-r-y balanced class. Nothing overpowering in their lineup. Everything is to suppliment with other classes. Playing a Paladin is never "easy-mode", anyone claiming so never played a Paladin to it's full potential.</p></blockquote><p>Yea sure, and My Bruiser can 1 grp all the T8 avatars without any utility in grp..</p><p>fact is that when we raid, the second Amends go on the highest dps the mobs gets glued to the Pally..</p><p>even when I try to he grabs it right back, I use rescue, snap aggro, everything, and he just takes it back for kicks..</p><p>Pally's aggro control IS easy mode, how their survability is I have no idea, but the aggro control is a joke tbh..</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Dechau wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BUT, Paladins are a v-e-r-y balanced class. Nothing overpowering in their lineup. Everything is to suppliment with other classes. Playing a Paladin is never "easy-mode", anyone claiming so never played a Paladin to it's full potential.</p></blockquote><p>Yea sure, and My Bruiser can 1 grp all the T8 avatars without any utility in grp..</p><p>fact is that when we raid, the second Amends go on the highest dps the mobs gets glued to the Pally..</p><p>even when I try to he grabs it right back, I use rescue, snap aggro, everything, and he just takes it back for kicks..</p><p>Pally's aggro control IS easy mode, how their survability is I have no idea, but the aggro control is a joke tbh..</p></blockquote><p>If you put 2 fighters in the group, and if he's the MT he's suppose to have the hate, not you.</p><p>If you're tanking (which I won't doubt these days since cloth can) he can't have Amends on at all, because that's exactly what will happen. When I'm MA/OT I never use Amends to risk pulling hate off the MT, and I'm not even raid geared.</p><p>Does that mean Amends is "easy mode" hate transfer, nope. Because on the flip side of the coin is Paladins take a while to gain hate. If Paladins had the aggro generation of other tanks with Amends, you'd have a point, but that's not the case.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dechau wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>fact is that when we raid, the second Amends go on the highest dps the mobs gets glued to the Pally..</p><p>Pally's aggro control IS easy mode, how their survability is I have no idea, but the aggro control is a joke tbh..</p></blockquote><p>If you're tanking (which I won't doubt these days since cloth can) he can't have Amends on at all, because that's exactly what will happen. When I'm MA/OT I never use Amends to risk pulling hate off the MT, and I'm not even raid geared.</p></blockquote><p>Luckily, SoE saw fit to let you cast any version of the spell. </p><p>It isn't uncommon for our brig to be in the OT group with the pally.  Certainly if the pally casts his highest level amends spell on the brigand, aggro is going to be glued to him and no amount of snaps is going to change that for more than a few seconds time.</p><p>Now, what he does do is cast his lowest version of the spell on the brig.  This provides the pally more aggro, but not enough to generally rip the mob, and provides the brig the paddinghe needs to go all out.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Certainly if the pally casts his highest level amends spell on the brigand, aggro is going to be glued to him and no amount of snaps is going to change that for more than a few seconds time.</p><p>Now, what he does do is cast his lowest version of the spell on the brig.  This provides the pally more aggro, but not enough to generally rip the mob, and provides the brig the paddinghe needs to go all out.</p></blockquote><p>This is true, Atan, if you run with a group that understands how Paladins work (this isn't always the case in PuGs). In PuGs, they see even a level 60 Resolute Faith avoidance on them, and they'll have a cow that it's too low level (remember the thread about a certain avatar hunting guild I'm mentioning? Well, that's what occurred. Why? Zero Paladins on their raid roster, zero experience working with them daily).</p><p>A-l-o-t of misconceptions about Paladins, and mainly due to them not working with them as MTs, heck, even MA/OTs.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>the only misconception is that amends should have been removed from the game a LONG time ago.</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Lygerr@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the only misconception is that amends should have been removed from the game a LONG time ago.</p></blockquote><p>Hmmm</p><p>I get the feeling that this is supposed to be a quip and a dig at paladins.  But in that case it doesn't make sense, you say that the only misconception (an untrue belief) is that Amends SHOULD have been removed, meaning that they are wrong to believe that Amends should have been removed and that it should therefore remain in the game.  I think you mean "The only misconception is that amends shouldn't be removed from the game".</p><p>Or possibly my personal bias is causing me to see a slightly garbled put down where there was only an innocent assertion. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I work with a pally in pretty much all of our raids and have lots of respect for them, but when I see the pally beside my guard it does kinda make me wonder why we have my guard tank more content than the pally, I'm fairly sure it's just because of that lingering assertion that Guards = MT that just refuses to fade away despite our lack-lustre capabilities.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I work with a pally in pretty much all of our raids and have lots of respect for them, but when I see the pally beside my guard it does kinda make me wonder why we have my guard tank more content than the pally, I'm fairly sure it's just because of that lingering assertion that Guards = MT that just refuses to fade away despite our lack-lustre capabilities.</p></blockquote><p>I think its a couple of things really.</p><p>1) Lingering Perception as you stated.  This is reinforced by the guards slight edge on early tier survivability.</p><p>2) Best raid tank players rolled and played guard.  Lets face it, those players who make the best raid tanks were rolled into the guard class from how well they filled the MT role in the previous expansions.  Not many of those players I know have made the transition off of guardian since the nerfage.  Some have, but not a lot.</p><p>I'm 100% sure I could be a better tank on my SK if my SK had the same level of gear my guard does.  My SK though will not catch up on gear this expansion, but on the level cap increase when I have to replace all my gear anyway, its very difficult to say which tank I should play as my main going forward.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I work with a pally in pretty much all of our raids and have lots of respect for them, but when I see the pally beside my guard it does kinda make me wonder why we have my guard tank more content than the pally, I'm fairly sure it's just because of that lingering assertion that Guards = MT that just refuses to fade away despite our lack-lustre capabilities.</p></blockquote><p>I think its a couple of things really.</p><p>1) Lingering Perception as you stated. This is reinforced by the guards slight edge on early tier survivability.</p><p>2) Best raid tank players rolled and played guard. Lets face it, those players who make the best raid tanks were rolled into the guard class from how well they filled the MT role in the previous expansions. Not many of those players I know have made the transition off of guardian since the nerfage. Some have, but not a lot.</p><p>I'm 100% sure I could be a better tank on my SK if my SK had the same level of gear my guard does. My SK though will not catch up on gear this expansion, but on the level cap increase when I have to replace all my gear anyway, its very difficult to say which tank I should play as my main going forward.</p></blockquote><p>Agreed.  When the playing field is reset in Feb, I seriously doubt you will see many Guards holding the so called "MT" crown they do today.   Come expansion it will be pretty much the same as starting over.......... and lets be honest here,  if we all had to start over today...who that intends to be MT for a raid force would roll Guard over SK?...  </p><p>Also, come expansion Guards will not longer have that "slight edge on early tier survivability" since TSO and recent changes have given all the plate tanks pretty much equal survivability.</p>

[Dechau]

<p>What happens I'm pretty sure no one knows, but it sure would be nice if soe could fit the 3 classes for some thing specific..</p><p>If I had rolled a Guardian in T5 for the simple reason to be a raid MT, I would be pretty [Removed for Content] off if the Crusaders would suddently take over my spot, sure if he was a better player then I would let it go, but if its because soe makes his class better than mine in a snap it would really suck..</p><p>Give us some roles, fix all 3 classes (Warriors, Crusaders and Brawlers) and make all 3 useable for the role you want us to be..</p><p>Just speak out and let us know, this trowing stones at each other is not getting us anywhere..</p>

[Aule]

Don't forget to tell the brawlers what that role is too.

[Prestissimo]

<p>I guess then a fair thing to point out would be that if you take away amends, what other role does the paladin serve?  What does the paladin get brought onto raids for if you take away their holy ground and amends?  You should ask your guild strategist (if you have one) "why bring a paladin instead of anything else?".  Having been one, I can tell you what the only thing paladins have that is worth keeping in the general raid formation sense: snap aggro.</p><p>Paladins were designed to be the one tank class with the highest <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>potential</strong></span> hate gain via amends, and recently adding to that from RoK Holy Ground, but they additionally are the weakest tank comparatively across the board in every category spare their hate.  The reason they have amends is so that they can supplimentlary fit any role in any place at any time with unideal setups or in the situation where something unexpected happens.  Paladins are designed to recover the situation from those random mishaps that occur.  In order to counter the fact that the paladin would be spending probably less than 1/4 of their time actually generating hate and considering their hate gain is already inferior, it had to be made up by something else: Amends.  Saying amends needs to be taken away is the same as saying that brawlers need to have their avoidance and damage avoid/prevent abilities taken away or that guardians need to have their shields + moderate taken away or berserkers need to have their dps and regens taken away.  Amends not only provides us with a large portion of our hate, but it also allows us to do what we were designed to do rather than spend all our time spamming hate abilities.  Taking away that one ability takes away a very large percentage of our hate and our ability to perform our intended purpose.</p><p>Amends may seem too powerful, but thats only because the rest of the class's picture is being completely ignored.</p>

[Siatfallen]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I guess then a fair thing to point out would be that if you take away amends, what other role does the paladin serve?  What does the paladin get brought onto raids for if you take away their holy ground and amends?  You should ask your guild strategist (if you have one) "why bring a paladin instead of anything else?".  Having been one, I can tell you what the only thing paladins have that is worth keeping in the general raid formation sense: snap aggro.</p><p>Paladins were designed to be the one tank class with the highest <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>potential</strong></span> hate gain via amends, and recently adding to that from RoK Holy Ground, but they additionally are the weakest tank comparatively across the board in every category spare their hate.  The reason they have amends is so that they can supplimentlary fit any role in any place at any time with unideal setups or in the situation where something unexpected happens.  Paladins are designed to recover the situation from those random mishaps that occur.  In order to counter the fact that the paladin would be spending probably less than 1/4 of their time actually generating hate and considering their hate gain is already inferior, it had to be made up by something else: Amends.  Saying amends needs to be taken away is the same as saying that brawlers need to have their avoidance and damage avoid/prevent abilities taken away or that guardians need to have their shields + moderate taken away or berserkers need to have their dps and regens taken away.  Amends not only provides us with a large portion of our hate, but it also allows us to do what we were designed to do rather than spend all our time spamming hate abilities.  Taking away that one ability takes away a very large percentage of our hate and our ability to perform our intended purpose.</p><p>Amends may seem too powerful, but thats only because the rest of the class's picture is being completely ignored.</p></blockquote><p>There is a strange inconsistency at play here. Last time I read a paladin complaint thread, the problem was that paladins did not have the ability to generate hate quickly enough in a group setting.Now, Paladins are really good at that, but they suck at everything else?</p><p>Also, a paladin is, outside of snap aggro, the weakest tank across the board? This is a surprise to me, since, y'know, I could have sworn the leather tanks had the lowest survivability, and the Guardian/brawlers the lowest sustained AE aggro generation, not to mention AE DPS. This all by design, mind you.</p><p>I don't really care if paladins lose or keep amends. I have always had a great deal of fun trying frantically to rip aggro from a paladin with amends on my brawler. But don't claim that the paladin is nothing but this single ability, or that a more conventional tool for keeping aggro could not be just as effective.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Paladins have power issues as it is. Take away amends and if no mana batteries are present then paladins will be oop before most fights end. Not a good thing if you ask me.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>This thread just gets more and more hilarious as time goes by. Amends is a benefit but without it paladins can still tank. Without it tho it makes some of our other things, like heals, stupid without some sort of hate benefit to those if Amends is removed. If someone feels amends should be removed then fine, but replace it with something and I'd be ok too.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><p>There is a strange inconsistency at play here. Last time I read a paladin complaint thread, the problem was that paladins did not have the ability to generate hate quickly enough in a group setting.Now, Paladins are really good at that, but they suck at everything else?</p><p>Also, a paladin is, outside of snap aggro, the weakest tank across the board? This is a surprise to me, since, y'know, I could have sworn the leather tanks had the lowest survivability, and the Guardian/brawlers the lowest sustained AE aggro generation, not to mention AE DPS. This all by design, mind you.</p><p>I don't really care if paladins lose or keep amends. I have always had a great deal of fun trying frantically to rip aggro from a paladin with amends on my brawler. But don't claim that the paladin is nothing but this single ability, or that a more conventional tool for keeping aggro could not be just as effective.</p></blockquote><p>Positional snap agro and potential hate is very different than in general hate gain.  What I meant was that in a situation where on a raid and the MT goes down, a paladin is able to immediately grab agro much more so than any other tank.  They also are able to use temp abilities to siphon and create rediculous amounts of hate (well, not so much the generate part anymore thanks to the ninja nerf in update 51 that passed through even though it was cancelled).  In a situation where you need to continously be generating hate on a chain pull or group tank basis, the paladin has issues unless they have a good amends target.  Prior to the removal of the encounter linked hate gain mechanic, on a fight with 5+ mobs, the paladin could generate absolutely insane amounts of hate.  With the removal of that mechanic, it imensely reduced the paladin's multimob hate.  There is more included in this, but just to sum it up, the paladin can quickly scale the hate chart, but they truely shine when there is a very large gap to scale since they can scale 1 hate or 1 trillion hate with equal effort.  When it comes to actual hate generation, the paladins are by no means anything special.</p><p>Survivability includes more than just mitigation.  Those awesome abilities that allow tanks to absorb spike damage or absorb damage in general when they get low on life and need a window of time to get back up to full health... yeah, paladins don't have that.  We either have enough heals, or we don't.  Theres really no "oh crap" abilities at our disposal.  Additionally, as a brawler, it is accepted that you will need larger spot heals as you <strong>theoretically</strong> will get hit less often, but take more damage when you do get hit.  It may not play out that way, but that is the intention.  That is supposed to be the trade off.  Personally playing a healer, I don't really have that much trouble healing brawlers through instances, but that of course assumes that the rest of the group understands how to play with and is built with the consideration that there will be a bralwer tank.  I'm not saying that the brawlers don't have issues taking large hits, I'm saying that you have more control over your situation than pray your healers can restore your health/keep you up after your death save stiffles you for 12 seconds and that if you know you're going to see a big spike on a set timer you can do something about it other than sit there in anticipation helpless to do anything about it.  We pretty much have to eat the entire thing.</p><p>As for the class being only amends, that really was not the point of the statement as countlessly time and time again without fail the point of the statement is missed.  The point is that amends is both a beneficial attribute as much as it incures punishments.  It gives flexibility and potential, but in return it merrits penalties to be placed on the class.  To think that paladins trade absolutely nothing for amends is a horrible mistake, and as such not counting those punishments that go hand in hand with having amends is as much an insult to the paladins as saying the bralwer's mythicals make up for the mitigation differences.  Brawlers are not defined as a class by the fact that they wear leather but equally it cannot be ignored that they do wear leather and many people see them purely as a fighter class that wears leather.  This is much the same as some players see paladins as only the "OPed easymode amends" and while it also is not all defining, it cannot be ignored that we do have it.  Failing to keep the trade offs for amends in mind while people cry for it to be nerfed is uniformed and damaging to the class.  That is what the statement was meant to mean.</p>

[Dechau]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite></p><p>Positional snap agro and potential hate is very different than in general hate gain.  What I meant was that in a situation where on a raid and the MT goes down, a paladin is able to immediately grab agro much more so than any other tank.  They also are able to use temp abilities to siphon and create rediculous amounts of hate (well, not so much the generate part anymore thanks to the ninja nerf in update 51 that passed through even though it was cancelled).  In a situation where you need to continously be generating hate on a chain pull or group tank basis, the paladin has issues unless they have a good amends target.  Prior to the removal of the encounter linked hate gain mechanic, on a fight with 5+ mobs, the paladin could generate absolutely insane amounts of hate.  With the removal of that mechanic, it imensely reduced the paladin's multimob hate.  There is more included in this, but just to sum it up, the paladin can quickly scale the hate chart, but they truely shine when there is a very large gap to scale since they can scale 1 hate or 1 trillion hate with equal effort.  When it comes to actual hate generation, the paladins are by no means anything special.</p><p>Survivability includes more than just mitigation.  Those awesome abilities that allow tanks to absorb spike damage or absorb damage in general when they get low on life and need a window of time to get back up to full health... yeah, paladins don't have that.  We either have enough heals, or we don't.  Theres really no "oh crap" abilities at our disposal.  Additionally, as a brawler, it is accepted that you will need larger spot heals as you <strong>theoretically</strong> will get hit less often, but take more damage when you do get hit.  It may not play out that way, but that is the intention.  That is supposed to be the trade off.  Personally playing a healer, I don't really have that much trouble healing brawlers through instances, but that of course assumes that the rest of the group understands how to play with and is built with the consideration that there will be a bralwer tank.  I'm not saying that the brawlers don't have issues taking large hits, I'm saying that you have more control over your situation than pray your healers can restore your health/keep you up after your death save stiffles you for 12 seconds and that if you know you're going to see a big spike on a set timer you can do something about it other than sit there in anticipation helpless to do anything about it.  We pretty much have to eat the entire thing.</p><p>As for the class being only amends, that really was not the point of the statement as countlessly time and time again without fail the point of the statement is missed.  The point is that amends is both a beneficial attribute as much as it incures punishments.  It gives flexibility and potential, but in return it merrits penalties to be placed on the class.  To think that paladins trade absolutely nothing for amends is a horrible mistake, and as such not counting those punishments that go hand in hand with having amends is as much an insult to the paladins as saying the bralwer's mythicals make up for the mitigation differences.  Brawlers are not defined as a class by the fact that they wear leather but equally it cannot be ignored that they do wear leather and many people see them purely as a fighter class that wears leather.  This is much the same as some players see paladins as only the "OPed easymode amends" and while it also is not all defining, it cannot be ignored that we do have it.  Failing to keep the trade offs for amends in mind while people cry for it to be nerfed is uniformed and damaging to the class.  That is what the statement was meant to mean.</p></blockquote><p>I don't see how a Pally could be better at snap aggro than ANY other tanks ?</p><p>AS a Bruiser with full AA's I have 4 rescue abilities and 2 target locks, 1 of them being encounter, I k now SK's and Zerkers can snap pretty much anything also, so your statement is, imo very wrong..</p><p>Its true Brawlers might need "the right" setup for it, but with a full MT grp, we can tank just the same as other tanks, maybe we need a little better gear for it, but its doable for sure..</p><p>For progress I would not myself use a Brawler, but I would say that any Brawler can tank the mobs that drop the gear he/she is wearing..  At least this goes for the instanced mobs, and in some ocasions, we are also well able to tank a little a head, we just need to a little more on our toes for it..</p><p>All in all, the "fix" Brawlers are asking for is not that big, sure many brawlers whine about not being able to, but I think a lot of it is also because they are not allowed to try, I mean, why should we use a leather Tank when we do have a Plate one standing ?   give your Brawlers a chance and you will see that we are not that far off <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Dechau wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't see how a Pally could be better at snap aggro than ANY other tanks ?</p><p>give your Brawlers a chance and you will see that we are not that far off <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>If you haven't seen it in action, I'd highly recomend you witness the snapping power in raids (or groups but to not as impressive of an effect) of (any aoe) + <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Ground" target="_blank">holy ground</a> and throw in <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Heroism" target="_blank">sigil of heroism</a> on something with a rediculous number of adds for good measure.  All the books in scion of ice in arcanus' room for example or the drake room in bonemire's HoF, before the ninja nerf of encounter hate pushed through from GU51, consecrate + my other aoes, sigil of heroism, pure aoe group setup: approximately 109k hate per second before counting amends.  If anyone pulled hate (which they couldn't since that was being distributed across all the mobs and even pulling off one mob would have required approx 203k dps thanks to sigil), I could have popped holy ground off to boot.  Of course that meant I was out of literally all of my abilities by the end of the fight, but the point still stands.  Of course thats also an extreme example.</p><p>And as for giving brawlers a chance, refer to <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=45&topic_id=457253#5120685" target="_blank">this post</a>. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Maamadex]

<p>I have have never had any issues with snap aggro on a paladin. Ever. I am not sure if we are better at it than other tanks, but we certainly have the tools to shine in that regard, moreso than a brawler atm. It is a combination of our transfers, and holy ground, along with stuff all tanks get. I have also seen what happens when brawlers are given a chance in raid scenarios, mostly its disappointing. Maybe healers are to blame I dunno, but they get holes knocked them through them compared to plate.</p>

[Lord Hackenslash]

<p>Since this is a thread about Paladin misconceptions I am surprised that there is no talk about the mythical and how once you get it, you are the best tank at mitigating damage. This doesn't help paladins just starting out but on tough content odds are (at least on my server) that you will have your mythical and be enjoying a 19 - 20% reduction in damage taken depending on how the math falls in. This is huge, especially when any tank will be far into the diminishing returns cap for physical mitigation.</p><p>Is this a misconception? I often see paladins with their poor mitigation in comparison to guardians however this stat does not show up in the persona window.</p><p>Am I missing something about your mythical?</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since this is a thread about Paladin misconceptions I am surprised that there is no talk about the mythical and how once you get it, you are the best tank at mitigating damage. This doesn't help paladins just starting out but on tough content odds are (at least on my server) that you will have your mythical and be enjoying a 19 - 20% reduction in damage taken depending on how the math falls in. This is huge, especially when any tank will be far into the diminishing returns cap for physical mitigation.</p><p>Is this a misconception? I often see paladins with their poor mitigation in comparison to guardians however this stat does not show up in the persona window.</p><p>Am I missing something about your mythical?</p></blockquote><p>The Mythical works with this, 10% of incoming physical damage is reduced(incoming slashing/crushing/piercing).  After that the resulting damage we take has a 10% of that damage heal to ourselves.  People that say 20% damage reduction are not reading the mythical.  The cap in the game is 20% damage reduction, and any plate tank can easily pick up 5% from the tier 3 Chest piece from WoE(Digg).  It is a nice constant form of damage reduction on it and stacks nicely with our blessed warding TSO Paladin AA option that gives us a regenerating 250 plus ward per hit we recieve and the standard static 250 damage reduction all fighters have in the fighter line AA in TSO.  Heck, every so often out mythical clicky comes in handy on the heal side and damage on multiple mobs in group encounters(raid side he doesnt last long).  The bigger amount of survival for me is from the stacked bonuses of a templer/dirge mix, just like about any other tank out there...<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since this is a thread about Paladin misconceptions I am surprised that there is no talk about the mythical and how once you get it, you are the best tank at mitigating damage. This doesn't help paladins just starting out but on tough content odds are (at least on my server) that you will have your mythical and be enjoying a 19 - 20% reduction in damage taken depending on how the math falls in. This is huge, especially when any tank will be far into the diminishing returns cap for physical mitigation.</p><p>Is this a misconception? I often see paladins with their poor mitigation in comparison to guardians however this stat does not show up in the persona window.</p><p>Am I missing something about your mythical?</p></blockquote><p>As the previous poster mentioned, it is infact a 10% damage reduction, then out of the remaining damage 10%  is healed.  The paladin initially starts out as less defensive than the other tanks due to our lack of abilities such as adrenaline, damage absorbs, life leeches, and overall lame avoidance, so it is kind of to be expected that when designing our class specific "ultimate weapon" that it will be kept somewhat in consideration that as a class we will aim for higher health pools, avoidance gear to boost our lack of it, damage gear to boost our otherwise low damage abilities that cap quickly, and higher mitigation to counter our lack of anti-spike/survivability abilities.  Seeing as the easiest way to gear our class is mitigation and higher hp, it would stand to reason that the best way to assist in our class specific weapon would be one that helps regen our health pool which also ties into the whole paladin healing themselves thing.  The one thing however that this does not help with and which is the paladin's main deficiency comparatively to other tanks is that our mythical does nothing to helping prevent incoming damage than what other plate tank classes gain from their mythical since it is only replenishing 10% of the damage that we do take on any physical damage and it will only apply on damage that is less than fatal.  While this is a very nice attribute of and in itself, this is where I must also take an opportunity to point out the rest of the mythical in comparison to other plate tanks.</p><p>class         stats         HP         Power        <span style="color: #00ccff;">defensive</span>       <span style="color: #00ccff;">offensive</span>         <span style="color: #ffffff;">crit/da</span>         <span style="color: #00ccff;">other bonus</span>Zerker:     198           300       285            10defense       8slash              8DA          5shield effectivenessGuard:      186           300       250           10defense       8slash               8MC          5shield effectivenessBruiser:    196           300       300            10deflect         10crush            8DA          5min deflection chanceMonk:       186           300       300            8 Deflect         10crush             8MC          5min deflection chanceSK:           180           275       275             -                     10slash             8DA         100spell/ca damagePali:         174            295       275             -                    10slash             6MC          100spell/ca damage</p><p>Now, <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=629006108" target="_blank">keeping in mind what I'm wearing...</a> (Ya, I know, no tso raid stuff because my warden's my main now) which adds up to 330 ca mod and 215 spell mod.  Without any of my gear on, and considering all of my abilities are adept 3 or master (the larger damage ones are master) there are only 4 abilities that break 1k damage (2 of which are by less than 75 damage on their highest possible end).  Without any gear on, out of my combat arts, 2 combat arts break 1k damage; one of which at it's highest point fully aa buffed is 1014 damage, and the other is 1035-1722 which is the spell shared between the sk and pali spell books, and out of the rest of the combat arts there are none that pass 550 damage and that considers that almost every one of my increase damage aas are maxed.  With all my gear on, I've capped the effective amount of combat art and spell mod that I can gain on all but 9 of my abilities.  When my mythical procs, it caps 5 of those (which happen to be spells).  Another 200 ca mod would cap another 3.  The only thing left at that point would be the spell shared between the pali and sk ca book which also happens to be the most damaging of all the paladin's inherrent abilities; Doom Judgement.</p><p>What this translates into is that out of all the mythicals, the paladins has the lowest stats (and keep in mind wis = power pool and int = spell damage which is half of our abilities, sk int = power and spell damage, all others wis and int are neglegable), the paladin is the only one that has 6 instead of 8 melee crit or double attack, they along with the shadowknight are the only tanks that have less than 300 health and no defensive bonus, and the paladin's other mythical blue bonus is almost hard capped on about half their abilities just with whats on the mythical alone, and is readily available on tons of gear which makes it alot less usefull since it dramatically and negatively affects quality of itemization choices especially considering that the paladin is in the group of bard/crusader that has higher stat/more blue bonus gear available that largely is now worthless other than for only stats.</p><p>As far as the mythical clickie goes, on it's own in best case scenario it will do a grand total of about 1,500 points of damage + heals against a solo mob before it expires or dies (which was tested on many <strong>very</strong> long past grey lvl 40ish heroics and it died several times).  Multiple solo mobs it's more effective although not largely since it still has a hit rate/damage amount that rivals a wet noodle.  It typically will get killed even by a blue single down solo con mob attacking it 3 maybe 4 times.  Thats less than pet classes dumbfire summoned pets can take damage wise, and this is supposed to be a raiding weapon's clickable tool to assist the class with on it's "class defining" weapon?</p><p>In all, the mythical amounts to a very good auto attack damage, the +spell heal mod based on half the wisdom proc is quite usefull simply because it's almost always up due to the paladin's moderate spammyness, and the damage reduction/heal is very nice, but is nowhere near as ubah as alot of people think.  The rest of the mythical is pretty meh considering what it is and what it's supposed to be.</p>

[Aule]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>class         stats         HP         Power        <span style="color: #00ccff;">defensive</span>       <span style="color: #00ccff;">offensive</span>         <span style="color: #ffffff;">crit/da</span>         <span style="color: #00ccff;">other bonus</span></p><p>Zerker:     198           300       285            10defense       8slash              8DA          5shield effectivenessGuard:      186           300       250           10defense       8slash               8MC          5shield effectivenessBruiser:    196           300       300            10deflect         10crush            8DA          5min deflection chanceMonk:       186           300       300            8 Deflect         10crush             8MC          5min deflection chanceSK:           180           275       275             -                     10slash             8DA         100spell/ca damagePali:         174            295       275             -                    10slash             6MC          100spell/ca damage</p></blockquote><p>Slight correction, the Bruiser mythical click bonus is a 100% dodge rate, not deflection.  That's important as dodge does not suffer from strike through negating your avoidance.  That and it also has a initial 10% heal + 5% per second for the 10 second duration. </p><p>Incidentally, that's also why the 2.2% chance to dodge food (or drink, I forget) is better than the 2.2% parry one.</p>

[Dechau]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>class         stats         HP         Power        <span style="color: #00ccff;">defensive</span>       <span style="color: #00ccff;">offensive</span>         <span style="color: #ffffff;">crit/da</span>         <span style="color: #00ccff;">other bonus</span></p><p>Zerker:     198           300       285            10defense       8slash              8DA          5shield effectivenessGuard:      186           300       250           10defense       8slash               8MC          5shield effectivenessBruiser:    196           300       300            10deflect         10crush            8DA          5min deflection chanceMonk:       186           300       300            8 Deflect         10crush             8MC          5min deflection chanceSK:           180           275       275             -                     10slash             8DA         100spell/ca damagePali:         174            295       275             -                    10slash             6MC          100spell/ca damage</p></blockquote><p>Slight correction, the Bruiser mythical click bonus is a 100% dodge rate, not deflection.  That's important as dodge does not suffer from strike through negating your avoidance.  That and it also has a initial 10% heal + 5% per second for the 10 second duration. </p><p>Incidentally, that's also why the 2.2% chance to dodge food (or drink, I forget) is better than the 2.2% parry one.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong, when I click my Myth Epic's still strikethrough on me..</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>I didn't count clickies.  Those are just the attributes and bonuses without counting the "when equipped" or procs or clickies.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I didn't count clickies.  Those are just the attributes and bonuses without counting the "when equipped" or procs or clickies.</p></blockquote><p>You also didn't count the 15% deflection chance on the monk mythical.</p>

[Netty]

<p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since this is a thread about Paladin misconceptions I am surprised that there is no talk about the mythical and how once you get it, you are the best tank at mitigating damage. This doesn't help paladins just starting out but on tough content odds are (at least on my server) that you will have your mythical and be enjoying a 19 - 20% reduction in damage taken depending on how the math falls in. This is huge, especially when any tank will be far into the diminishing returns cap for physical mitigation.</p><p>Is this a misconception? I often see paladins with their poor mitigation in comparison to guardians however this stat does not show up in the persona window.</p><p>Am I missing something about your mythical?</p></blockquote><p>The Mythical works with this, 10% of incoming physical damage is reduced(incoming slashing/crushing/piercing).  After that the resulting damage we take has a 10% of that damage heal to ourselves.  People that say 20% damage reduction are not reading the mythical.  The cap in the game is 20% damage reduction, and any plate tank can easily pick up 5% from the tier 3 Chest piece from WoE(Digg).  It is a nice constant form of damage reduction on it and stacks nicely with our blessed warding TSO Paladin AA option that gives us a regenerating 250 plus ward per hit we recieve and the standard static 250 damage reduction all fighters have in the fighter line AA in TSO.  Heck, every so often out mythical clicky comes in handy on the heal side and damage on multiple mobs in group encounters(raid side he doesnt last long).  The bigger amount of survival for me is from the stacked bonuses of a templer/dirge mix, just like about any other tank out there...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Sorry to have to say this but you are wrong. Pallys are the best tank to mitigate dmg. The cap is at 50% not 20%. Not sure who told you that? Even if it was at 20% pallys would have more mit than any other tank in game. For those that dont kill Avatars that is.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I didn't count clickies.  Those are just the attributes and bonuses without counting the "when equipped" or procs or clickies.</p></blockquote><p>You also didn't count the 15% deflection chance on the monk mythical.</p></blockquote><p>I wasn't counting anything on the bottom half of the mythical.  Only the top part with all the stats and blue bonuses.  Note the "when equipped" portion that the 15 deflection is under on the monk epic.  Back to the point though, comparatively speaking there is a significant deficiency on one of the mythicals and it's not too difficult to see which one.  As for the other effects on it, thats also not exactly tipped in the paladin's favor either since the clickie is almost completely worthless, and the bonus from the proc is so easy to hard cap in the setup and spec that it is useful that you have to change alot of itemization choices purely to avoid negating the proc's bonus.</p>

[Dorieon]

<p>Yeah, because everyone gets those hp and avoid stats when the mythical isn't equipped.</p><p>If you want to compare mythicals you have to compare the entire thing with all the bonuses. Just going by all the 'up top' stats doesn't give a good picture of how they compare. Its the when equipped bonuses that actually make mythicals special.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah, because everyone gets those hp and avoid stats when the mythical isn't equipped.</p><p>If you want to compare mythicals you have to compare the entire thing with all the bonuses. Just going by all the 'up top' stats doesn't give a good picture of how they compare. Its the when equipped bonuses that actually make mythicals special.</p></blockquote><p>Then considering 1 of the 3 paladin's mythical effects is a worthless clickie that half the time does nothing because it can't hit the mob or dies instantly and especially so in raid content for which the mythicals were specifically designed to be used in, and another one is a proc that gives a bonus that is excessively easy to hard cap which given that path of itemization that most tanks follow would net a grand total of 0 bonus from one of our mythical's special bonuses, I'd say that makes a large part of the paladin's mythical worthless.  Adding into the fact that it is largely the furthest behind of the mythicals in regards to the top part, I'd say that makes it even more shameful.</p><p>The entire reason I didn't include the bottom half of the mythicals is because they are <strong>supposed to be</strong> oriented around the way the class functions and their actual worth would thus then include:</p><ul><li>an indepth analysis and comparison of the classes output with and without the mythical</li><li>it's affect on class itemization priority</li><li>how it affected play style of the class</li><li>it's affect on the classes percieved role</li><li>how or if it set the class apart from others in terms of a unique and specific role that this particular class is that much more suited for because of it's class specific epic weapon.</li></ul><p>Then we could discuss the affect of their alteration over the patches and last expansion and how their roles have changed and been altered due to the drastic contrasts between RoK when epics were introduced and current TSO.</p><p>Rather than arguing those semantics which would go on for hundreds of pages due to the limitless scenarios, I figured it would be worth comparing that portion of the weapons PURELY because just that portion alone gives enough of a sample to portray the fact that there is a noticable deficiency in one weapon and as an added bonus it also completely and utterly contradicts the design of the class comparatively and the role that the development team claimed was that classes new role.</p><p>This was kind of what the goal was to point out by the comparison that I provided.  If you want to negate that point, explain how the most stat dependant class having the lowest on their mythical fits design, how the class that is supposedly defensive not having a defensive blue stat compared to other offensive ones having it is logical, how being the solitary one that is 2 short on an otherwise constant bonus (nevermind that the class is inherrantly already lower on this stat in equivilant gear and aas) is fair for a class defining weapon that is supposed to compliment the classes design, and finally how having a bonus that is EASILY hard capped and rendered useless especially compared to the bonuses that other classes get that are usefull well past current itemization limitations is fair.  Then we'll cover the bottom half of the mythical which as previously stated is additionally rendered 2/3 useless with minimal effort and in the content for which the weapon was specifically designed.  If you wanted to go further, we could always throw into the fact that the paladin epic weapon drastically altered and changed (not for the better) the way the class was played and what the class focused on in terms of itemization and how it affected their ideal group setup which consequently also required everyone to completely relearn the paladin class in order to function properly.  All epic weapons caused this, but none where nearly as drastic as the paladin's was, spare maybe the fury but thats outside of the fighter category.</p><p>The point is that while the mythical is nice because of the damage reduction and because of how much it lands on auto attacks, it is lacking in comparison to the other classes, and if anything is inferior to the others and additionally one more thing the paladins have that is misconcieved to be better than it really is due to lack of understanding.</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<p><cite>Netty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since this is a thread about Paladin misconceptions I am surprised that there is no talk about the mythical and how once you get it, you are the best tank at mitigating damage. This doesn't help paladins just starting out but on tough content odds are (at least on my server) that you will have your mythical and be enjoying a 19 - 20% reduction in damage taken depending on how the math falls in. This is huge, especially when any tank will be far into the diminishing returns cap for physical mitigation.</p><p>Is this a misconception? I often see paladins with their poor mitigation in comparison to guardians however this stat does not show up in the persona window.</p><p>Am I missing something about your mythical?</p></blockquote><p>The Mythical works with this, 10% of incoming physical damage is reduced(incoming slashing/crushing/piercing).  After that the resulting damage we take has a 10% of that damage heal to ourselves.  People that say 20% damage reduction are not reading the mythical.  The cap in the game is 20% damage reduction, and any plate tank can easily pick up 5% from the tier 3 Chest piece from WoE(Digg).  It is a nice constant form of damage reduction on it and stacks nicely with our blessed warding TSO Paladin AA option that gives us a regenerating 250 plus ward per hit we recieve and the standard static 250 damage reduction all fighters have in the fighter line AA in TSO.  Heck, every so often out mythical clicky comes in handy on the heal side and damage on multiple mobs in group encounters(raid side he doesnt last long).  The bigger amount of survival for me is from the stacked bonuses of a templer/dirge mix, just like about any other tank out there...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Sorry to have to say this but you are wrong. Pallys are the best tank to mitigate dmg. The cap is at 50% not 20%. Not sure who told you that? Even if it was at 20% pallys would have more mit than any other tank in game. For those that dont kill Avatars that is.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry Netty, but you need to get your facts straight, way back at the beginning of Mythicals/ROK and later in TSO Beta, the red names stated that the cap on Physical damage reduction(like the 10% on Pally mythical and the 5% on tier 3 chest pieces along with other fabled chest pieces out there) is 20% total physical damage reduction.  The 50% you are thinking about is most like reuse cap on spells/CA's.  The 10% physical damage reduction was SOE's way for Paladins to compete with Warriors that could spike their mitigation to the same degree with their self and group mit buffs.  The original excuse that paladins had heals/wards to compete against warriors on mobs was proven false when it was pointed out that heals/wards are static and could not compete against incoming damage from epics.  SOE then tossed in the physical damage reduction mechanic in ROK and added equipment to it in TSO.  Bear in mind tho that physical damage reduction is factored in after your normal mitigation has reduced the damage incoming so the better mitigation you have the smaller amount of health is saved on physical damage mitigation.</p><p>With the 10% heal after both of those calculations are done, we can be very competitive to MT/OT the current raid content, if the mob encounter is spiky on damage however, we have only 3 things to combat this.  Stonewall, a 182 AA ability that allows us to block 1 attack every 1.5 mins and has a duration of 10 secs if it doesnt trigger with no % health check(will block a 72 pt damage shield on the mob just as likely as a 10 k hit).  Divina Aura End line AA in crusader tree(shared by the Sk's) that we can use every 5 mins for 10 secs that block all attacks if they are under 50% of our mitigated health.  And the final ability is Divine Favor(our death save that is recastable every 5 mins in or out of combat, when it procs from a death blow it stifles us for 12 secs and heals 20% of our health).  Compare that 2 a guardian with at least 3 stoneskins, Block, Tower of Stone, and Stone Sphere in addition to draggoon reflexes for 12 secs or so no damage incoming and pallys have lesser spike protection(guardians should have the edge on this imo anyways).</p><p>If you want to see the survival abilities for the SK, just look at the 10 bazillion threads on TSO SK's, I am saying the Pally Myth is exactly what we needed to shore up issues we had on Epic mobs and the only thing i wish they had changed was the clicky effect, but that is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Netty]

<p>The thing im thinking of is not the spell reuse or the spell/ca dmg cap.</p><p>Zerks AD is on 50% so the cap has to be over 20% or that spell would be kinda much junk?</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The point is that while the mythical is nice because of the damage reduction and because of how much it lands on auto attacks, it is lacking in comparison to the other classes, and if anything is inferior to the others and additionally one more thing the paladins have that is misconcieved to be better than it really is due to lack of understanding.</p></blockquote><p>This statement is completely false.  You can argue all you want that Paladins need the extra on the Mythical, but in side by side comparisons the Paladin Mythical is definitely the best tank weapon out there.  10% damage reduction than 10% heal...no other weapon has that type of damage reduction.</p><p>Now, that being said Paladins needed a weapon like that to compete with their defensive counter-part.  But please get the facts straight, and always look at the weapon as a whole.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The point is that while the mythical is nice because of the damage reduction and because of how much it lands on auto attacks, it is lacking in comparison to the other classes, and if anything is inferior to the others and additionally one more thing the paladins have that is misconcieved to be better than it really is due to lack of understanding.</p></blockquote><p>This statement is completely false.  You can argue all you want that Paladins need the extra on the Mythical, but in side by side comparisons the Paladin Mythical is definitely the best tank weapon out there.  10% damage reduction than 10% heal...no other weapon has that type of damage reduction.</p><p>Now, that being said Paladins needed a weapon like that to compete with their defensive counter-part.  But please get the facts straight, and always look at the weapon as a whole.</p></blockquote><p>I sir do have my facts straight and despite what many like yourself and Noaani claim, I do fully understand and grasp the topic at hand in it's entirety.  I refuse to accept your statement as anything other than an attempt at trolling because I just made a full analysis of the weapon and have pointed out why and how the majority of that weapon is either inferrior or rendered useless which unfortunately for your arguement's sake is not the case for the other tank's epic weapons.</p><p>Please look at my statements as a whole because I have addressed your comment in it's entirety.  If nothing else, the ONLY thing I can admit to is that the paladin in it's entirety is by far more lacking than the other tank class in defensive capabilities and that their epic weapon on a whole is lacking comparatively to the other weapons, and the only thing that the damage reduction and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">reactive heal</span>* effect can make up for is either the weapons overall deficiency, or a countermeans to the classes inherrant deficiency, but not both because despite how ubah you think it to be, that effect would have to be doubled to evenly make up for both of those issues.</p><p>* - IF you live through the hit as the heal is applied instantly after the hit lands to the paladin's health pool and does diddly to help you survive the shot which is DRASTICALLY different than damage reduction.  This affect, aka Touch of Life on the parse for those that wish to double check that what I am saying is true (and it is) follows the damage imediately after wards and reactive heals.  The Touch of Life effect heals 10% of the damage that actually lands and is removed from the paladin's health pool.  EX: if the paladin will take 8k damage, and 3.5k is warded, and 1.5k is reactively healed by a templar heal, 3k goes to the paladins health pool, and immediately following the portion that does get taken out of the life pool, Touch of Life will heal for 300 points if you are still alive to be healed.  Therefore, the heal component is NOT damage reduction, it is passive reactive restoration.  Very similar to a warden prehealing so that the HoTs will land quicker than if you were to cast them after the damage is done, and any healer or tank can tell you how "good" at stopping a killing spike damage shot that type of healing is.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The point is that while the mythical is nice because of the damage reduction and because of how much it lands on auto attacks, it is lacking in comparison to the other classes, and if anything is inferior to the others and additionally one more thing the paladins have that is misconcieved to be better than it really is due to lack of understanding.</p></blockquote><p>This statement is completely false.  You can argue all you want that Paladins need the extra on the Mythical, but in side by side comparisons the Paladin Mythical is definitely the best tank weapon out there.  10% damage reduction than 10% heal...no other weapon has that type of damage reduction.</p><p>Now, that being said Paladins needed a weapon like that to compete with their defensive counter-part.  But please get the facts straight, and always look at the weapon as a whole.</p></blockquote><p>I sir do have my facts straight and despite what many like yourself and Noaani claim, I do fully understand and grasp the topic at hand in it's entirety.  I refuse to accept your statement as anything other than an attempt at trolling because I just made a full analysis of the weapon and have pointed out why and how the majority of that weapon is either inferrior or rendered useless which unfortunately for your arguement's sake is not the case for the other tank's epic weapons.</p><p>Please look at my statements as a whole because I have addressed your comment in it's entirety.  If nothing else, the ONLY thing I can admit to is that the paladin in it's entirety is by far more lacking than the other tank class in defensive capabilities and that their epic weapon on a whole is lacking comparatively to the other weapons, and the only thing that the damage reduction and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">reactive heal</span>* effect can make up for is either the weapons overall deficiency, or a countermeans to the classes inherrant deficiency, but not both because despite how ubah you think it to be, that effect would have to be doubled to evenly make up for both of those issues.</p><p>* - IF you live through the hit as the heal is applied instantly after the hit lands to the paladin's health pool and does diddly to help you survive the shot which is DRASTICALLY different than damage reduction.  This affect, aka Touch of Life on the parse for those that wish to double check that what I am saying is true (and it is) follows the damage imediately after wards and reactive heals.  The Touch of Life effect heals 10% of the damage that actually lands and is removed from the paladin's health pool.  EX: if the paladin will take 8k damage, and 3.5k is warded, and 1.5k is reactively healed by a templar heal, 3k goes to the paladins health pool, and immediately following the portion that does get taken out of the life pool, Touch of Life will heal for 300 points if you are still alive to be healed.  Therefore, the heal component is NOT damage reduction, it is passive reactive restoration.  Very similar to a warden prehealing so that the HoTs will land quicker than if you were to cast them after the damage is done, and any healer or tank can tell you how "good" at stopping a killing spike damage shot that type of healing is.</p></blockquote><p>I know how it works.  And your silly representation is junk when it only compares half of what the weapon actually does.  By your "estimations" than SKs Mythical weapon is by far the worst, and yet with the hate generation on the SK weapon it more than makes up for what the upper half of the weapon shows.  So, your little representation that you put so much time into is junk.</p><p>Now, since Mythicals are such a key part in any toons development and easily attained now, not to mention the bonuses from the Mythicals are going to be carried into next xpac....you do have to look at the Paladin as a hole, and there are very little deficiences...if at all.  Top agro generation (AE and ST), descent DPS, and high survivability.  Paladins complaining is just as bad as SKs asking for more luvin.  Enjoy the good run now because you know the Amends nerf is coming.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know how it works.  And your silly representation is junk when it only compares half of what the weapon actually does.  By your "estimations" than SKs Mythical weapon is by far the worst, and yet with the hate generation on the SK weapon it more than makes up for what the upper half of the weapon shows.  So, your little representation that you put so much time into is junk.</p><p>Now, since Mythicals are such a key part in any toons development and easily attained now, not to mention the bonuses from the Mythicals are going to be carried into next xpac....you do have to look at the Paladin as a hole, and there are very little deficiences...if at all.  Top agro generation (AE and ST), descent DPS, and high survivability.  Paladins complaining is just as bad as SKs asking for more luvin.  Enjoy the good run now because you know the Amends nerf is coming.</p></blockquote><p>For the one hundred millionth time that I've said this and definately not the last time I'll say it, I WANT to shed amends and will be very very happy when that day comes, but I do not want to be given a heaping steaming sack of manuer as a replacement such that restitution was.  The reason the paladin keeps getting nerfed is because amends has such high potential and because they actually use it to high proficiency.  The only reason they can hold such insane hate is because of amends.  The only reason they can top the hate charts is because of amends.  The only reason they can go so offensive geared and speced and do good dps is because of amends.  If you take away amends, you cripple the living crap out of the paladins because as a whole and on even comparison levels, the paladin is very weak in the current tier in relation to the other fighters.</p><p>What happens to a paladin's insane over the top hate if you put amends on a healer or a utility and let the top dpser go nuts without amends on them?  The paladin will have very poor hate, and it would be a shameful run.  The reason I point this simple scenario out is because what does that mean for what amends really does?  Amends is ONLY as good of hate as it's target's hate generates.  Therefore, amends in itself really is nothing other blank potential.  If the target is weak, amends is weak.  If the target is overpowered, amends is overpowered.  See where I'm going with this?  If the paladin amends a class that is broken, it in turn makes the paladin's hate broken.  In a group with lots of hate reduction and no transfers orriented around pumping up one dpser and the rest of the group utility to support that one hard nuker, it will make amends dramatically overpowered, but it is going to be that way whether the paladin does anything or not.  The "top agro generation" you speak of is by far not whats happening.  Paladins generate almost no hate at all.  They simply manipulate possitions and siphon a large percentage of hate off of another player.  HUGE difference on every level.  If the paladin had "top agro generation" they could easily hold agro off a raid without amends or any of the raid hate buffs or transfers and nobody would be able to ever pull agro off of them even on hour long fights unless there was a memwipe or positional threat increase used.  What you mistakenly believe to be "generation" is nothing more than positional manipulation.</p><p>The reason I want to shed amends is not because I don't like the spell, nor is it because I don't like the way it works.  What I don't like is people that do not understand the class that think they do constantly and without relent attacking the paladins because they think that the paladin is summed up completely by amends and get mad when the paladin does exactly what they are supposed to do.  Paladins have amends so that they can spend their time using everything else other than hate abilities.  If you don't understand how much of a double edged sword amends is and don't have the experience of having more than one high dpser fighting back and forth for the top parse spot which absolutely cripples a paladins hate control then you do not understand the paladin as a whole and have absolutely zero right to attack the paladin for functioning exactly how they were designed to when they use amends on a class that generates the highest agro.</p><p>As for the shadowknights comparison, you are comparing apples to peaches.  They may both be fruit, but they are VERY different.  Sharing a subclass does not mean anything other than the fact that you share a subclass.  As for high survivability, please do explain just what tools we have for surviving hits, especially spike damage.  Please explain how our death save compares to the other tanks.  Please explain just what gives paladins this said high survivability.  I would LOVE to see it.</p><p>Edit: as for the amends nerf, we saw that with the hate transfer cap and they recently nerfed it again by a small percentage.  Where were you on that one?  The paladins didn't complain that much, but are more so peeved that our legitimate and very realistic and fair concerns went completely ignored.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>The survivability is in the fact that Paladins TAKE LESS DAMAGE THAN OTHER TANKS in general because of their Mythical.</p><p>So for the HUNDREDTH MILLIONTH time how can you compare things without actually looking at the big picture.  The only reason I posted in this thread is because you made an innaccurate comparison of Mythicals across the board and than tried to justify it in a twisted way.</p><p>As far as Amends, I hope that Paladins get a good trade-off for it as well.  Something that generates their own agro more....but everybody and their brother can see why Amends is such an over-the-top ability.  Oh, we have a whole bunch of AE mobs, cool lets put the Amends on the Warlock parsing 35k on the encounter and the Paladin holds everything no problem.  Oh, we are missing a Swash to transfer hate to the tank...no biggie just throw in the brig and the Pally can transfer.</p><p>Anyway, this isn't an argument about Amends.  This is a thread about clearing up some misconceptions.  One of the misconceptions is that Paladins is lacking in some way...and they aren't.  Mythical included, because you do have to look at the whole picture, Paladins take less damage, have great Agro and do decent DPS.</p>

[Dechau]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The survivability is in the fact that Paladins TAKE LESS DAMAGE THAN OTHER TANKS in general because of their Mythical.</p><p>So for the HUNDREDTH MILLIONTH time how can you compare things without actually looking at the big picture.  The only reason I posted in this thread is because you made an innaccurate comparison of Mythicals across the board and than tried to justify it in a twisted way.</p><p>As far as Amends, I hope that Paladins get a good trade-off for it as well.  Something that generates their own agro more....but everybody and their brother can see why Amends is such an over-the-top ability.  Oh, we have a whole bunch of AE mobs, cool lets put the Amends on the Warlock parsing 35k on the encounter and the Paladin holds everything no problem.  Oh, we are missing a Swash to transfer hate to the tank...no biggie just throw in the brig and the Pally can transfer.</p><p>Anyway, this isn't an argument about Amends.  This is a thread about clearing up some misconceptions.  One of the misconceptions is that Paladins is lacking in some way...and they aren't.  Mythical included, because you do have to look at the whole picture, Paladins take less damage, have great Agro and do decent DPS.</p></blockquote><p>QFE.. .. ..</p><p>I know guilds who does now take in Pally's simpleu because their aggro management is so OP that they will run into a brick wall whey they get fixed..</p><p>Sure SK DPS is insane, but atm there is nothing close to OP as far as Pally aggro manage ment..</p><p>Basicly fic amends or remove it..</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The survivability is in the fact that Paladins TAKE LESS DAMAGE THAN OTHER TANKS in general because of their Mythical.</p><p>So for the HUNDREDTH MILLIONTH time how can you compare things without actually looking at the big picture.  The only reason I posted in this thread is because you made an innaccurate comparison of Mythicals across the board and than tried to justify it in a twisted way.</p><p>As far as Amends, I hope that Paladins get a good trade-off for it as well.  Something that generates their own agro more....but everybody and their brother can see why Amends is such an over-the-top ability.  Oh, we have a whole bunch of AE mobs, cool lets put the Amends on the Warlock parsing 35k on the encounter and the Paladin holds everything no problem.  Oh, we are missing a Swash to transfer hate to the tank...no biggie just throw in the brig and the Pally can transfer.</p><p>Anyway, this isn't an argument about Amends.  This is a thread about clearing up some misconceptions.  One of the misconceptions is that Paladins is lacking in some way...and they aren't.  Mythical included, because you do have to look at the whole picture, Paladins take less damage, have great Agro and do decent DPS.</p></blockquote><p>You are now basing an entire classes survivability situation on one single piece of gear.  Take away the mythical, and what exactly does the paladin have that makes them survivable?  I recall a phrase that was commonly coined up until the day and age where most people and their dogs had mythicals...  "the paladin is a paper tank".  So what does this mean for the paladins that don't have their mythicals?  I don't expect you to understand having bloodletter and all and being able to damage while healing yourself and being able to utilize your damage spell crit chance for criticaling life taps where as the paladin has to get crit heal in addition to everything else.</p><p>You're telling me that having x specific weapon (that will be outdated and scaled down as you level up with the next expansion unless they make an upgrade to the mythicals in which case you need to consider the scenario of not having this weapon equiped) which gives an 5% extra damage reduction to physical only beyond what 2 of the other plate tanks get on their mythicals and the 10% of damage taken reactively healed after damage is applied (IF you survive the initial hit which is a key part of survivability just fyi) is worth having no anti-spike control abilities especially in an expansion that utilizes crit damage, strike through, and double attack on already hard hitting mobs that CAN and DO hit you for very significant portions of your life and can one shot you, our death save that stiffles us for 12 seconds durring which we cannot use our "oh crap" heal, or use our heals that we actively use as "part of our survivability" which is yet a further punishment and are additionally low on health, and having such poor alotment in survivability tools?  Thats not a very good arguement.</p><p>I agree that the paladin's mythical is better overall for mitigating damage, BUT seeing as you only want to look at things as a whole, you cannot ignore that this survivability that the paladin has is only when they have their mythical weapon equipped and is only in the situation where you survive the hit because otherwise we don't recieve half of the mythical's survivability bonus as it is a reactive heal after the damage is taken out of our life pool, AND if you count the rest of the mythical is inferior by a noticeable degree to the other mythicals, AND if you count that all other tanks (including brawlers) have class inherrent mitigation buffs temporary or maintained beyond their defensive stance and have temporary tools to increase other aspects of survivability by one means or another spare the paladin, AND that unlike other tanks paladins have to actively stop using hate and damage abilities in order to cast their heals that currently assuming you're in tank gear land for about 1-2k health even with favorable buffs and which also assume that you don't get interupted and that you are not under a control effect such as that of our death "save" or the countless effects that TSO mobs cast and the high percentage that are not affected by AotC.  As a shadowknight you should know how often control effects are not able to be affected by AotC, and for being such mad survivability for the class as a whole, that is all from a weapon alone, and I see nothing posted from anyone so far that the class itself has as an ability to help survivability...  To make your task easier for locating our survivability tools, our ward for about 1.5k-2k, divine aura which alot of top tier SKs are not even bothering to get anymore, a 1 physical attack block that costs 2 aas (which about 75-95% of the time can be summed up by thorns procs), and a death save for <20% health that stiffles us for 12 seconds.</p><p>And as for the paladin agro management, yes the paladin does have OP agro management, because that is how they are designed to hold hate.  They manipulate positional hate; wether it is 1 hate or 1 billion hate doesn't matter to them.  It is designed as a main ASSIST tool, not as a main tank tool, but because of the evolution of the hate system over the "moar __!" era we're in, transfers make holding agro easy.  TBH, you can slap any plate tank into the MT roll and they will have amends.  In the MT raid spot of the average proper setup raid, I don't know if you realise this or not, amends gives the paladin a grand total of 3% hate.  Because the paladin actively tanks via hate manipulation and is well versed in doing so and has the tools to do so and the only thing raid buffs don't account for is hate manipulation, is it any wonder they can perform the main tank role well?  If you look at a situation where the paladin is not brought as the main tank when they would normally have been the raids MT, I'll bet you the majority of the time the reason is spike damage.</p><p>So when you say fix amends or remove it, you really are speaking without being properly informed because in raids and properly buffed groups, it already has been "fixed or removed" down to pretty much nothing.  Anything you see beyond that in terms of "mad OP pali hate control" is purely the paladin knowing what they're doing to manipulate hate properly.</p>

[Dorieon]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are now basing an entire classes survivability situation on one single piece of gear.  Take away the mythical, and what exactly does the paladin have that makes them survivable?  I recall a phrase that was commonly coined up until the day and age where most people and their dogs had mythicals...  "the paladin is a paper tank".  So what does this mean for the paladins that don't have their mythicals?  I don't expect you to understand having bloodletter and all and being able to damage while healing yourself and being able to utilize your damage spell crit chance for criticaling life taps where as the paladin has to get crit heal in addition to everything else.</p><p>You're telling me that having x specific weapon (that will be outdated and scaled down as you level up with the next expansion unless they make an upgrade to the mythicals in which case you need to consider the scenario of not having this weapon equiped) which gives an 5% extra damage reduction to physical only beyond what 2 of the other plate tanks get on their mythicals and the 10% of damage taken reactively healed after damage is applied (IF you survive the initial hit which is a key part of survivability just fyi) is worth having no anti-spike control abilities especially in an expansion that utilizes crit damage, strike through, and double attack on already hard hitting mobs that CAN and DO hit you for very significant portions of your life and can one shot you, our death save that stiffles us for 12 seconds durring which we cannot use our "oh crap" heal, or use our heals that we actively use as "part of our survivability" which is yet a further punishment and are additionally low on health, and having such poor alotment in survivability tools?  Thats not a very good arguement.</p><p>I agree that the paladin's mythical is better overall for mitigating damage, BUT seeing as you only want to look at things as a whole, you cannot ignore that this survivability that the paladin has is only when they have their mythical weapon equipped and is only in the situation where you survive the hit because otherwise we don't recieve half of the mythical's survivability bonus as it is a reactive heal after the damage is taken out of our life pool, AND if you count the rest of the mythical is inferior by a noticeable degree to the other mythicals, AND if you count that all other tanks (including brawlers) have class inherrent mitigation buffs temporary or maintained beyond their defensive stance and have temporary tools to increase other aspects of survivability by one means or another spare the paladin, AND that unlike other tanks paladins have to actively stop using hate and damage abilities in order to cast their heals that currently assuming you're in tank gear land for about 1-2k health even with favorable buffs and which also assume that you don't get interupted and that you are not under a control effect such as that of our death "save" or the countless effects that TSO mobs cast and the high percentage that are not affected by AotC.  As a shadowknight you should know how often control effects are not able to be affected by AotC, and for being such mad survivability for the class as a whole, that is all from a weapon alone, and I see nothing posted from anyone so far that the class itself has as an ability to help survivability...  To make your task easier for locating our survivability tools, our ward for about 1.5k-2k, divine aura which alot of top tier SKs are not even bothering to get anymore, a 1 physical attack block that costs 2 aas (which about 75-95% of the time can be summed up by thorns procs), and a death save for <20% health that stiffles us for 12 seconds.</p><p>And as for the paladin agro management, yes the paladin does have OP agro management, because that is how they are designed to hold hate.  They manipulate positional hate; wether it is 1 hate or 1 billion hate doesn't matter to them.  It is designed as a main ASSIST tool, not as a main tank tool, but because of the evolution of the hate system over the "moar __!" era we're in, transfers make holding agro easy.  TBH, you can slap any plate tank into the MT roll and they will have amends.  In the MT raid spot of the average proper setup raid, I don't know if you realise this or not, amends gives the paladin a grand total of 3% hate.  Because the paladin actively tanks via hate manipulation and is well versed in doing so and has the tools to do so and the only thing raid buffs don't account for is hate manipulation, is it any wonder they can perform the main tank role well?  If you look at a situation where the paladin is not brought as the main tank when they would normally have been the raids MT, I'll bet you the majority of the time the reason is spike damage.</p><p>So when you say fix amends or remove it, you really are speaking without being properly informed because in raids and properly buffed groups, it already has been "fixed or removed" down to pretty much nothing.  Anything you see beyond that in terms of "mad OP pali hate control" is purely the paladin knowing what they're doing to manipulate hate properly.</p></blockquote><p>Wow you write alot. Anyway, I grouped and raided with a few pallys that were fine before mythicals. Take away a zerker/monk/bruiser mythical and the same statement can be made. Also, myths aren't going away they will become useable in a different slot, so you won't be getting rid of it any time soon.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow you write alot. Anyway, I grouped and raided with a few pallys that were fine before mythicals. Take away a zerker/monk/bruiser mythical and the same statement can be made. Also, myths aren't going away they will become useable in a different slot, so you won't be getting rid of it any time soon.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, I do write a lot, but its because if I summarize my posts the reasoning and/or explanation behind my logic would not be present in plain black and white text.  Some people have a hard time following these said connections even when it's spelled out or they just refuse to check it out/fairly consider it.  Usually it's because they haven't walked a mile in those shoes to see first hand via experience and are making educated (or not) guesses based on their level of understanding.</p><p>Personally I don't like the idea of the myth slot because then the effects and procs on most of the mythicals become very overpowered.  It's like having a charm that has all of your mythical's procs and effects; it's all bonus without making the choice of whether or not the item is worth it as a package deal.  You sacrifice none of the mythicals effects, but can gain an upgrade to your damage output and possibly more procs and better stats/bonuses and will perpetuate the era of "moar __!" instead of making choices.  That topic however is for another thread and another day if they decide to continue down this path.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow you write alot. Anyway, I grouped and raided with a few pallys that were fine before mythicals. Take away a zerker/monk/bruiser mythical and the same statement can be made. Also, myths aren't going away they will become useable in a different slot, so you won't be getting rid of it any time soon.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, I do write a lot, but its because if I summarize my posts the reasoning and/or explanation behind my logic would not be present in plain black and white text.  Some people have a hard time following these said connections even when it's spelled out or they just refuse to check it out/fairly consider it.  Usually it's because they haven't walked a mile in those shoes to see first hand via experience and are making educated (or not) guesses based on their level of understanding.</p><p>Personally I don't like the idea of the myth slot because then the effects and procs on most of the mythicals become very overpowered.  It's like having a charm that has all of your mythical's procs and effects; it's all bonus without making the choice of whether or not the item is worth it as a package deal.  You sacrifice none of the mythicals effects, but can gain an upgrade to your damage output and possibly more procs and better stats/bonuses and will perpetuate the era of "moar __!" instead of making choices.  That topic however is for another thread and another day if they decide to continue down this path.</p></blockquote><p>Mythic weapon ABILITIES aren't going anywhere.  Take that how you will, but I will share that going into the next expansion Paladins will still have the same 10% damage reduction and 10% heal ability even if they upgrade their weapon.  Also, there is no excuse that any toon that has been 80 for a little while doesn't have their Mythical.  Pick-up raids are being run quite a bit particularly for this reason so it is almost a given that toons will have their Mythical and at least T2 shard armor if they actually play.</p><p>That is why your argument means nothing because you leave so many holes in it.  It doesn't matter how much you write if you actually choose to ignore important factors like Mythical weapons.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>LOL if you think your Myth is lacking.......i suggest taking a look at the so called "when equipped bonuses" on the Guardian mythical.</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<p>As a longtime playing paladin, i think there is no way a person can say a paladin's mythical is underpowered, like i said before it puts us exactly where we need to be to survive raid targets and shore up our weakpoints.  On the point of removing Amends, i remember the TSO Beta where the players with pitchforks were happy to see Amends go.... until they realized the Devs were removing all hate transfers then they screamed bloody murder.  If Amends is removed, i want to see a aoe hate generation equivalent i can do to make up for the change, give me the 300% hate on heals/wards from beta, make aggression work so that 10% above the mob's level makes taunts unresistable and taunt crits and higher agressions make larger taunts.  Remove all hate transfers and percentage hate decreasers from the 24 classes so that ALL classes are responsable for hate.  say goodbye to assassin/swashbuckler/coercer transfers, brawler AA hate transfers, guardian hate decreasers like moderate, even sorceror hate transfers.  Give the dps classes a reliable means of hate loss that scales on content and make taunts worth more than dps.  Pretty much what we had in TSO Beta minus the blasted stance/buff consolidation that really didnt fit in well with fighters.  Change Grave Sacrament to be a aoe only with no hate positions to it, remove the defense accuracy penalties on defensive stances and add extra damage taken when on offense stance similar to jewel of animosity when it procs.  Unless these type of changes are made you just nerf the paladin without fixing hate in general.</p><p>For those fighters that would complain that the penalty to offensive stance is too harsh and crimps their playstyle, we are fighters/tanks first and foremost, and it is about time we changed this never ending slope of DPS to hold agro we find ourselves in now.  If as a paladin i can manage a change in Amends from a hate transfer, the other tanks can either manage theirs or reroll to the dps class they secretly want to play.  My roll is to lead the groups/raids as the tank, hold mob agro and have the necessary survivalability to push thru content, I am hoping that the next expansion brings about changes similar to what i have posted to make better tanks out of what we have in the game now...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Gaylon, after looking at the when equipped effects, I went back and compared the top part of the paladin mythical to the top part of the guardian mythical.  As a whole, my opinion remains the same, however I will say as I did before and has always been my opinion that with the removal of the buckler requirement on the sta line and thus the loss of it on the guard mythical that the guards lost a major bonus and didn't get nearly enough to replace it, but every guard knows they were OP in RoK.  I'm not trying to justify it and am not saying that I wanted it to be that way, but just saying that the old buckler line, a tower shield thanks to the myth, and the dps/survivability the guards had in RoK was OPed and everyone knew it.</p><p>OrcSlayer96, I don't want to be a taunt bot, and the complete removal of transfers will do just that.  Transfers have their place, taunting should have it's place, and dps tanking should have it's place.  Not giving adequate tools for each and not giving content for each is poor development practices.  All tanks doing nothing but taunting will be a garunteed death of this game without hesitation.  There needs to be variety and an option and each needs to be better than the others in a proportionate amount of content so that all tanks have a role that they are needed for.  Taunting, dpsing to hold hate, and transfers all need their equally proportionate amount of content and all should be able to trump each other in their respective favored content in order to have balance.  No options and no choices = not fun = players quit.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For those fighters that would complain that the penalty to offensive stance is too harsh and crimps their playstyle, we are fighters/tanks first and foremost, <strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">and it is about time we changed this never ending slope of DPS to hold agro</span></strong> we find ourselves in now.  <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">If as a paladin i can manage a change in Amends from a hate transfer, the other tanks can either manage theirs or reroll to the dps class they secretly want to play.</span></strong></p></blockquote><p>And that's the whole thing. A Paladin is a tank, he's not a dps support player. If a Paladin is more worried about dps, s/he should reroll to a dps class. I'm a tank, not a squishy Wizard.</p><p>If a tank is hitting more to maintain hate than using his hotbar full of taunts to do it, the mechanic is broken. Don't give tanks so many taunts when they're wasting valuable screen real estate.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Bruener, did I ever say that the mythical abilities were completely going away and you couldn't use them in any shape or size in the next expansion?  No.  Is the paladin mythical OP in a mythical slot where you get the mythical's when equipped and other effects and can use your weapon of choice on top of it?  Yes.  Is it huge and in of itself OPed when compared to any other single when equipped bonus?  Yes, however the rest of the mythical is deficient comparatively to the other classes which everyone seems to be trying strongly to avoid admiting, and when considering the overall value defensively AND offensively that each fighter mythical gives, the paladin mythical does not quite stack up to the same total value.</p><p>Putting all else aside, even though the paladin's mythical is very nice defensively for mitigating damage, paladins still have nothing for spike damage control compared to at LEAST 2 abilities for all other fighters.  Simply having a health % minimum on stonewall would completely satisfy me across the board because although the paladins may not have the best, that is the way they were intended to be to even out their ability to fill most any role.</p><p>You may be reading some of the words in my posts, maybe even all of the words, but you are missing the points and either taking things out of context or selectively reading, and you completely blew off the "if you don't have your mythical" portion that is a very valid problem for the paladins.  For being all about things as a whole, you're sure missing a lot of important parts of the big picture. The paladin mythical is great in regards to that one effect, but it is a crutch that makes up for the classes problems, and it makes up for the fact that the rest of the mythical is inferior to the other fighters in the other areas.</p><p>Basing the entirety of a classes survivability on their class specific weapon that not everyone has is plain and simply wrong.  You are neglecting everything else that needs to be considered.  For an example, lets take hate and amends vs the trak shield.  All 4 plate tanks can have the trak shield that gives a group wide effective amends, but if a paladin uses it, it will reduce the hate that the paladin gains overall because of where it's being drawn from and because of the averaging system on hate transfers.  It makes everyone else's hate easy mode because then they have amends AND their much higher hate gain, which therefore makes any other plate tank capable of having better agro than a paladin simply by having that shield.  You could also say that it gives the tank easy mode afk tanking, but thats not always true, and the sad thing is the trak shield gives steadier average hate and a higher % than amends does.  It's still possible to afk tank with trak's shield, but it doesn't garuntee it because you still have to know what you're doing just like with amends.  Because of the complexity of this game's systems and mechanics, there is nothing that you can just blanket statement because of one ability or piece of gear like for example the claim that paladins are the best defensive tanks purely because of their mythical.</p><p>If you ignore the paladins without mythicals who do have noticeable issues survivability wise, you are not looking at the class as a whole and invalidate every point you make when you use the phrase "as a whole".  If you can't acknowledge this, then you are either an anti-paladin that can't be reasoned with or are blind to anything other than the select golden spots when it's convenient.  (Or attempting to feigning attention off your bloodletter, coagulate, and furror to avoid an inevitable nerf back into line with the other fighters.)</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The point is that while the mythical is nice because of the damage reduction and because of how much it lands on auto attacks, it is lacking in comparison to the other classes, and if anything is inferior to the others and additionally one more thing the paladins have that is misconcieved to be better than it really is due to lack of understanding.</p></blockquote><p>This statement is completely false.  You can argue all you want that Paladins need the extra on the Mythical, but in side by side comparisons the Paladin Mythical is definitely the best tank weapon out there.  10% damage reduction than 10% heal...no other weapon has that type of damage reduction.</p><p>Now, that being said Paladins needed a weapon like that to compete with their defensive counter-part.  But please get the facts straight, and always look at the weapon as a whole.</p></blockquote><p>Here I guess I have to quote myself to point out again exactly what you said and how it is completely false.  Not sure why you keep trying to lead things down another path but this is exactly what you said...and in some diluted way you tried to justify it.</p><p>FACT: THE PALADIN MYTHICAL IS NOT LACKING WHEN COMPARING IT TO THE OTHER CLASSES AND IT IS JUST AS GOOD AS IT LOOKS!!!!!!</p><p>Now, stop changing the subject all the time and please explain to me how that is so.  Or, be a big man and admit you were wrong and that you wasted all that time on an embarrasing long wall of text trying to back up a point that is FALSE.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>I have explained why in those walls of text, most noteably on page 6 it is explained why the weapon is deficient.  I'll summarize it because I know just saying "go back and read it" will result in nothing.</p><p>Its deficiencies:</p><ul><li>Less stats than all other fighter mythicals.¹</li><li>The only fighter mythical without +8 to MC or DA.</li><li>Along with the shadowknight, they have no defensive blue stat bonus such as defense or deflection or shield effectiveness.²</li><li>The clickie is worthless in all scenarios other than soloing and is even barely able to do 1500 points of damage and heals combined over 20+ seconds against green or grey mobs in the best case scenario because it's so weak, dies so easily, and hits like a soggy noodle.</li><li>The proc bonus is EASILY hard capped and unlike other procs on figher mythicals, ours only does something IF we continue to cast damage spells or heals AND will only boost them if they are not hard capped by + spell/heal mod.³  The other fighter's mythical procs will do their job regardless of anything else other than damage immunities in regards to the damage procs.</li></ul><p>Its benefits:</p><ul><li>Good damage reduction and a reactive heal if you live through the applying of the damage, otherwise you recieve nothing from touch of life.</li><li>Good auto-attack damage, but at the cost of it being a 6 second delay.</li><li>Has less suck associated with it than the other weapons available for the paladin, but mostly because of that first "has" especially since that is the primary weakness in the paladin class and countering to any degree at all is worth sacrificing pretty much anything else.</li></ul><p>Now for the explaination of the lines that have the numbers if you so chose to read it or need clarification of those bulleted statements.  The other lines should be self explanatory.</p><p>1: The paladin is the only tank out of all 6 that require all 5 stats to gain their respective stat bonuses, and due to the fact they're more spread out in terms of increase gained per point than the other tanks, they will logically need a larger number of stats to gain the same amount of increase.  Additionally, numbers 2 and 3 also contribute towards why the paladins needs the stat bonuses more than the other tanks do.</p><p>2: As the developers tried to arbitrarily pigeonhole paladins in GU51 with "defensive tanking" being their primary focus, it doesn't make much sense why a defensive class has no defensive stat bonus on their class weapon.  Since that was scrapped, it no longer applies, but you can bet with very good odds that they are going to either try passing it off again in the next fighter change or ninja force it into the primary role and nerf/manipulate abilities to reflect accordingly.  Additionally, seeing as the paladin has much shorter duration "defensive abilities" that needs to be cast frequently durring combat and requires you be able to cast.  Unlike the SK the pali's does not deal any damage with their ward which because of the high enphasis on damage = hate currently that results in a reduction in hate gain.  These reasons make the paladin inherrently going to rely more on hate siphons since their damage mitigating ability does not help with agro, or they will need to go without using it, which in the end results in the choice of lesser agro or lesser survivability.  I don't see other tanks facing that option since most of their abilities are either passive, moderate durration cast prior to combat, or in the SK's case they actively heal as they damage the mob.  For this reason although all tanks can benefit from increases to defensive bonuses and skills, the paladin could definately benefit from having a passive defensive skill or bonus increase more so than the other tanks because of the influencing factors.  Considering also the paladin is the only tank without an effective or real anti-spike damage control ability, it is another justifying reason the paladin should have a defensive skill or blue stat bonus.  The damage reduction and reactive heal if still alive after damage is applied effect can be considered a contributing reason why there is no defensive skill or blue stat bonus on the paladin mythical.</p><p>3. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=75&topic_id=457253#5128963" target="_blank">Clickie for redirect to the post</a></span> The paragraph underneath the comparison table pretty much sums up why it's easily hard capable.  Especially if you're wearing anything mage oriented, which as a shadowknight I assume you understand why a crusader would want to wear mage oriented jewelry.</p><p>PS.  If the paladin mythical is such pure win, why don't you betray from a shadowknight to a paladin?  I'm sure if the mythical is THAT OPed survivability wise compared to the others that it would be well worth the betrayal.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>I tanks job first and foremost is maintain aggro.  Without that nothing else matters.</p><p>Currently both Crusaders can do that almost too easily.  So sorry but trying to convince that your underpowered is not gonna work.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have explained why in those walls of text, most noteably on page 6 it is explained why the weapon is deficient.  I'll summarize it because I know just saying "go back and read it" will result in nothing.</p><p>Its deficiencies:</p><ul><li>Less stats than all other fighter mythicals.¹</li><li>The only fighter mythical without +8 to MC or DA.</li><li>Along with the shadowknight, they have no defensive blue stat bonus such as defense or deflection or shield effectiveness.²</li><li>The clickie is worthless in all scenarios other than soloing and is even barely able to do 1500 points of damage and heals combined over 20+ seconds against green or grey mobs in the best case scenario because it's so weak, dies so easily, and hits like a soggy noodle.</li><li>The proc bonus is EASILY hard capped and unlike other procs on figher mythicals, ours only does something IF we continue to cast damage spells or heals AND will only boost them if they are not hard capped by + spell/heal mod.³  The other fighter's mythical procs will do their job regardless of anything else other than damage immunities in regards to the damage procs.</li></ul><p>Its benefits:</p><ul><li>Good damage reduction and a reactive heal if you live through the applying of the damage, otherwise you recieve nothing from touch of life.</li><li>Good auto-attack damage, but at the cost of it being a 6 second delay.</li><li>Has less suck associated with it than the other weapons available for the paladin, but mostly because of that first "has" especially since that is the primary weakness in the paladin class and countering to any degree at all is worth sacrificing pretty much anything else.</li></ul><p> <span style="color: #ff0000;">Ok, so to just address this upper part.  Just because the defeciences that you list have 2 more little bullets than the benefits does not mean the Paladin weapon is lacking at all.  Here is the fact, the big 10% damage reduction and 10% heal on the Mythical by far out-weights any of those defeciences, and everybody else besides you can recognize that.  Its not about how many bullets you can list its about what the weapon provides to your class as a whole.  The Paladin weapon is by far the BEST tank weapon.</span></p><p>Now for the explaination of the lines that have the numbers if you so chose to read it or need clarification of those bulleted statements.  The other lines should be self explanatory.</p><p>1: The paladin is the only tank out of all 6 that require all 5 stats to gain their respective stat bonuses, and due to the fact they're more spread out in terms of increase gained per point than the other tanks, they will logically need a larger number of stats to gain the same amount of increase.  Additionally, numbers 2 and 3 also contribute towards why the paladins needs the stat bonuses more than the other tanks do.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yes Paladins do require more stats.  Most of which are so far into the curve that it really doesn't matter now...not to mention that gear is designed with all the stats.  And in fact the argument is while Paladins do use all 5 stats they do not "require" all five stats maxed to perform well.  Agro magnet ability Amends means a Paladin doesn't have to do close to as much DPS as other tanks since they really don't have to generate nearly as much of their own hate.</span></p><p>2: As the developers tried to arbitrarily pigeonhole paladins in GU51 with "defensive tanking" being their primary focus, it doesn't make much sense why a defensive class has no defensive stat bonus on their class weapon.  Since that was scrapped, it no longer applies, but you can bet with very good odds that they are going to either try passing it off again in the next fighter change or ninja force it into the primary role and nerf/manipulate abilities to reflect accordingly.  Additionally, seeing as the paladin has much shorter duration "defensive abilities" that needs to be cast frequently durring combat and requires you be able to cast.  Unlike the SK the pali's does not deal any damage with their ward which because of the high enphasis on damage = hate currently that results in a reduction in hate gain.  These reasons make the paladin inherrently going to rely more on hate siphons since their damage mitigating ability does not help with agro, or they will need to go without using it, which in the end results in the choice of lesser agro or lesser survivability.  I don't see other tanks facing that option since most of their abilities are either passive, moderate durration cast prior to combat, or in the SK's case they actively heal as they damage the mob.  For this reason although all tanks can benefit from increases to defensive bonuses and skills, the paladin could definately benefit from having a passive defensive skill or bonus increase more so than the other tanks because of the influencing factors.  Considering also the paladin is the only tank without an effective or real anti-spike damage control ability, it is another justifying reason the paladin should have a defensive skill or blue stat bonus.  The damage reduction and reactive heal if still alive after damage is applied effect can be considered a contributing reason why there is no defensive skill or blue stat bonus on the paladin mythical.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">SOE didn't try to pigeon hole Paladins into defensive tanks, they were making it so all tanks were defensive when tanking and than they broke it up between AE and ST tanks.  Right now nobody feels bad for Paladins because they basically experience the best of both worlds.  They can be the top agro for AE tanking or top agro for ST basically with a quick switch of an Amends target.  On top of that Paladins were designed to be the more defensive style tank as well and the ability on their Mythical means that they take less damage basically than any other tank.  Maybe another block or something could be thrown into the mix, but honestly Paladins are fantastic at taking damage and holding agro...the 2 top things a tank needs to do.</span></p><p>3. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=75&topic_id=457253#5128963" target="_blank">Clickie for redirect to the post</a></span> The paragraph underneath the comparison table pretty much sums up why it's easily hard capable.  Especially if you're wearing anything mage oriented, which as a shadowknight I assume you understand why a crusader would want to wear mage oriented jewelry.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Guess what you are not the only character that it seems like a small piece of your Mythical is meh.  The SK clicky is a target lock....guess how many mobs in TSO are immune to target lock now.  The Guard proc is meh.  Etc. Etc.  The fact is though as a whole the Paladin weapon is very well designed and really isn't lacking.</span></p><p>PS.  If the paladin mythical is such pure win, why don't you betray from a shadowknight to a paladin?  I'm sure if the mythical is THAT OPed survivability wise compared to the others that it would be well worth the betrayal.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Why would I betray?  I didn't betray back when tons of people were.  I rolled a SK at launch and I love playing my SK....now more than ever.  I like the way that they play and love it that SOE finally fixed a lot of areas that were lacking.  I also like the SK mythical and the amount of hate it can produce.  I, unlike you, recognize the value of the weapon.  So, the question to you is since Paladins have it so "bad" with their Mythical why don't you betray or reroll?</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">There.  I decided to actually address your failing points.  /shudders at the incoming wall of text response.</span></p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I tanks job first and foremost is maintain aggro.  Without that nothing else matters.</p><p>Currently both Crusaders can do that almost too easily.  So sorry but trying to convince that your underpowered is not gonna work.</p></blockquote><p>If you can't live through the shots, it doesn't matter how well you hold agro.  Paladins in RoK had this particular problem much more so than any other tank and this is why for the majority of that expansion they were called paper tanks.  All the other tanks gained more survivability tools in the form of aa, and the paladin did not gain hardly anything in terms of pure survivability, but seeing as the high level content pretty much caps people in terms of survivability it's really not an issue for anyone at that point including brawlers.  Agro AND survivability are what makes a tank.  Beyond those 2 things, nothing else matters.</p><p>I'm not counting the myth as deficient because it has 2 silly little bullets less in it's pluses than it's minuses not and I know that the damage reduction and reactive heal are much larger than the deficiencies alone; my statement is a basis off of the principles behind the classes functions.  On any other class the paladin mythical would be rediculously OPed, but because of all the contributing factors, it's not the same story for the paladin.  I guess the problem is that as a paladin I understand it from a first person perspective and you're probably viewing it as a third person perspective and assuming you understand it thuroughly from the first person view.</p><p>If someone were to watch you play your classes and not play it, do you think they would understand every single influencing factor of playing your class?  What about how you counter your problem content or why your class benefits the most from specific gear or what types of situations are the most problematic in terms of what abilities you have to counter them?  While considering that question, also consider that the paladin functions a lot differently than the other tanks do, and because of this you really can't apply the same generally accepted facts or assumptions about tanks to the paladin.  I could explain everything behind all of my statements, but if you don't understand it from experience it would be a complete waste, it would turn into many walls of text, and you wouldn't care one way or another anyway since you wont accept anything other than your own view.</p><p>The reason I don't reroll or betray is because I have both and have for quite a while including when SKs sucked.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I tanks job first and foremost is maintain aggro. Without that nothing else matters.</p><p>Currently both Crusaders can do that almost too easily. So sorry but trying to convince that your underpowered is not gonna work.</p></blockquote><p>If you can't live through the shots, it doesn't matter how well you hold agro. Paladins in RoK had this particular problem much more so than any other tank and this is why for the majority of that expansion they were called paper tanks. All the other tanks gained more survivability tools in the form of aa, and the paladin did not gain hardly anything in terms of pure survivability, but seeing as the high level content pretty much caps people in terms of survivability it's really not an issue for anyone at that point including brawlers. Agro AND survivability are what makes a tank. Beyond those 2 things, nothing else matters.</p><p>I'm not counting the myth as deficient because it has 2 silly little bullets less in it's pluses than it's minuses not and I know that the damage reduction and reactive heal are much larger than the deficiencies alone; my statement is a basis off of the principles behind the classes functions. On any other class the paladin mythical would be rediculously OPed, but because of all the contributing factors, it's not the same story for the paladin. I guess the problem is that as a paladin I understand it from a first person perspective and you're probably viewing it as a third person perspective and assuming you understand it thuroughly from the first person view.</p><p>If someone were to watch you play your classes and not play it, do you think they would understand every single influencing factor of playing your class? What about how you counter your problem content or why your class benefits the most from specific gear or what types of situations are the most problematic in terms of what abilities you have to counter them? While considering that question, also consider that the paladin functions a lot differently than the other tanks do, and because of this you really can't apply the same generally accepted facts or assumptions about tanks to the paladin. I could explain everything behind all of my statements, but if you don't understand it from experience it would be a complete waste, it would turn into many walls of text, and you wouldn't care one way or another anyway since you wont accept anything other than your own view.</p><p>The reason I don't reroll or betray is because I have both and have for quite a while including when SKs sucked.</p></blockquote><p>Currently the "surviveability" of the plate tanks are pretty much equal......also you have to look beyond what the persona windows shows for MIT or AVOID when talking about surviveability. If you have easy-mode aggro lock then the healers job is much easier which means in the end the tank has increased surviveability. Just about all the healers I know or have group/raided with find healing Crusaders much much easier than Warriors.  No plate tank is considered a paper or eggshell tank anymore.  The so called Guardian advantage is only numerical and only comes into play in very extreme situational encounters.</p><p>If you look at the Mythicals fully....the Paladin Myth is solid and fits the class and its intended playstyle well.</p>

[Netty]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I tanks job first and foremost is maintain aggro.  Without that nothing else matters.</p><p>Currently both Crusaders can do that almost too easily.  So sorry but trying to convince that your underpowered is not gonna work.</p></blockquote><p>If you can't live through the shots, it doesn't matter how well you hold agro.  Paladins in RoK had this particular problem much more so than any other tank and this is why for the majority of that expansion they were called paper tanks.  All the other tanks gained more survivability tools in the form of aa, and the paladin did not gain hardly anything in terms of pure survivability, but seeing as the high level content pretty much caps people in terms of survivability it's really not an issue for anyone at that point including brawlers.  Agro AND survivability are what makes a tank.  Beyond those 2 things, nothing else matters.</p><p>I'm not counting the myth as deficient because it has 2 silly little bullets less in it's pluses than it's minuses not and I know that the damage reduction and reactive heal are much larger than the deficiencies alone; my statement is a basis off of the principles behind the classes functions.  On any other class the paladin mythical would be rediculously OPed, but because of all the contributing factors, it's not the same story for the paladin.  I guess the problem is that as a paladin I understand it from a first person perspective and you're probably viewing it as a third person perspective and assuming you understand it thuroughly from the first person view.</p><p>If someone were to watch you play your classes and not play it, do you think they would understand every single influencing factor of playing your class?  What about how you counter your problem content or why your class benefits the most from specific gear or what types of situations are the most problematic in terms of what abilities you have to counter them?  While considering that question, also consider that the paladin functions a lot differently than the other tanks do, and because of this you really can't apply the same generally accepted facts or assumptions about tanks to the paladin.  I could explain everything behind all of my statements, but if you don't understand it from experience it would be a complete waste, it would turn into many walls of text, and you wouldn't care one way or another anyway since you wont accept anything other than your own view.</p><p>The reason I don't reroll or betray is because I have both and have for quite a while including when SKs sucked.</p></blockquote><p>Do you even know what you are talking about? been reading most of the post you have made in this thread...</p><p>The pally myth is OP on pallys aswell. Why do pallys even need that over the other tanks?</p><p>Mit buffs? The temp buffs are junk in Tso. Why? most of the tank classes are caped in mit..</p><p>Avoidance? Do you know how avoidance work? do you know the diff of uncontested vs contested avoidance? I let you in on a secret. Uncontested > contested. And pallys that can get the highest block of all plate tanks (block = uncontested). But i guess they need that aswell?</p><p>You talk about lack of spike dmg tools. Do you know when you are about to get spiked down? You have a great and powerfull ward and a huge instant self heal + very low casting time on other heals that will save you as aswell from time to time. And stone wall.</p><p>I kinda much find it funny how the game turned out to be when crusader are miting more dmg than a warrior when they are ment to use heals to aid them. Im not looking for a nerf or anything but.... Dont you dare to say that pallys need that over the other tanks. Enjoy it.</p><p>Not to talk about hate. both crusader is over the top in dps and on hate. The fact that Warriors have to DW to be anywhere near a crusader in dps is BS. Combine that with the best hate tools in game..</p><p>Face it man. Crusaders are OP SK:s abit more but pallys aswell.</p><p>And this about pallys is the only tank that need 5 stats? SK:s tend to use int aswell. If you are talking about wis you should know that ALL TANKS NEED THAT ASWELL. All it does is that pallys gain a bonus in power from wis aswell. +all the gear as it look today.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>A guilded berzerker and my paladin are very close to the same stats.  I have 0.8% more mitigation, he has 0.6% more avoidance, he has 3% more critical mitigation, my parry is 1.4% higher, I have 6% more parry/reposte incoming attacks in effects and adornments (uncontested), I have 1.1% more block, I have 140 more health, we both have mythicals (his 5% damage reduction, my 10% and reactive heal) and my spell resists are at least 2k higher each.  In a woe raid, his zerker will need 1.9k hps on Gelidus Ventus, and my paladin will need 2.2k hps on the same mob.  Chain stunning the mob is a large part of what paladins do when they tank to prevent taking damage, but this doesn't apply on epics which means it's largely going to be purely about how well you take hits.  I could go more into the comparison and eliminate all other considerations, but it would end up being a wall of text so just trust me that I've accounted for any reasonable influencing factors because I hate being called unthurough and having to post a huge response explaining everything because someone wont have a little faith or assumes I'm biased.</p><p>The point is that since the % parry/reposte incoming attacks from effects or adornments are uncontested, and I have higher damage reduction why does it take more heals on my paladin than his zerker? That contradicts the whole statement about paladins being able to take damage better just because of the mythical.  Of course, if we get into the scenario of using our abilities and everything, he'll require more heals on mobs that can be stunned because thats a large part of a paladin's damage prevention.</p><p>Agro lock has nothing to do with this scenario seeing as the next highest in hate was below 50%.  Those numbers came from just incoming heals on him and on me (and I subtracted Touch of Life which amounted to 244 hps in addition to the 2,195 hps for a total of 2439 which is the average from 3 fights on the same name with the same members in raid just like the number for the zerker).</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A guilded berzerker and my paladin are very close to the same stats. I have 0.8% more mitigation, he has 0.6% more avoidance, he has 3% more critical mitigation, my parry is 1.4% higher, I have 6% more parry/reposte incoming attacks in effects and adornments (uncontested), I have 1.1% more block, I have 140 more health, we both have mythicals (his 5% damage reduction, my 10% and reactive heal) and my spell resists are at least 2k higher each. In a woe raid, his zerker will need 1.9k hps on Gelidus Ventus, and my paladin will need 2.2k hps on the same mob. Chain stunning the mob is a large part of what paladins do when they tank to prevent taking damage, but this doesn't apply on epics which means it's largely going to be purely about how well you take hits. I could go more into the comparison and eliminate all other considerations, but it would end up being a wall of text so just trust me that I've accounted for any reasonable influencing factors because I hate being called unthurough and having to post a huge response explaining everything because someone wont have a little faith or assumes I'm biased.</p><p>The point is that since the % parry/reposte incoming attacks from effects or adornments are uncontested, and I have higher damage reduction why does it take more heals on my paladin than his zerker? That contradicts the whole statement about paladins being able to take damage better just because of the mythical. Of course, if we get into the scenario of using our abilities and everything, he'll require more heals on mobs that can be stunned because thats a large part of a paladin's damage prevention.</p><p>Agro lock has nothing to do with this scenario seeing as the next highest in hate was below 50%. Those numbers came from just incoming heals on him and on me (and I subtracted Touch of Life which amounted to 244 hps in addition to the 2,195 hps for a total of 2439 which is the average from 3 fights on the same name with the same members in raid just like the number for the zerker).</p></blockquote><p>On the surface those numbers( 1.9k -vs- 2.2k) or differences are what I would expect between Warrior -vs- a Crusader at similar gear levels.   Crusader should require more healing than a Warrior.   Personally i think those numbers are too close considering the advantages a Crusader has across other areas of the game.</p>

[Boli32]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A guilded berzerker and my paladin are very close to the same stats. I have 0.8% more mitigation, he has 0.6% more avoidance, he has 3% more critical mitigation, my parry is 1.4% higher, I have 6% more parry/reposte incoming attacks in effects and adornments (uncontested), I have 1.1% more block, I have 140 more health, we both have mythicals (his 5% damage reduction, my 10% and reactive heal) and my spell resists are at least 2k higher each. In a woe raid, his zerker will need 1.9k hps on Gelidus Ventus, and my paladin will need 2.2k hps on the same mob. Chain stunning the mob is a large part of what paladins do when they tank to prevent taking damage, but this doesn't apply on epics which means it's largely going to be purely about how well you take hits. I could go more into the comparison and eliminate all other considerations, but it would end up being a wall of text so just trust me that I've accounted for any reasonable influencing factors because I hate being called unthurough and having to post a huge response explaining everything because someone wont have a little faith or assumes I'm biased.</p><p>The point is that since the % parry/reposte incoming attacks from effects or adornments are uncontested, and I have higher damage reduction why does it take more heals on my paladin than his zerker? That contradicts the whole statement about paladins being able to take damage better just because of the mythical. Of course, if we get into the scenario of using our abilities and everything, he'll require more heals on mobs that can be stunned because thats a large part of a paladin's damage prevention.</p><p>Agro lock has nothing to do with this scenario seeing as the next highest in hate was below 50%. Those numbers came from just incoming heals on him and on me (and I subtracted Touch of Life which amounted to 244 hps in addition to the 2,195 hps for a total of 2439 which is the average from 3 fights on the same name with the same members in raid just like the number for the zerker).</p></blockquote><p>On the surface those numbers( 1.9k -vs- 2.2k) or differences are what I would expect between Warrior -vs- a Crusader at similar gear levels.   Crusader should require more healing than a Warrior.   Personally i think those numbers are too close considering the advantages a Crusader has across other areas of the game.</p></blockquote><p>Crusaders *always* need more healing than Warriors... look at those stats again with temp buffs up and split the difference.</p><p>A paladins greatest advantage is actually he can control the incoming damage more for whlist a warrior has temp buffs these are finiate in the bonuses they give. A paladin's self heals on the other hand can be enhanced by use of cast /recast speed +heal and heal crit An SK has a similar effect but they have to spam lifetaps more.</p><p>Just to stress the point home more. On average when tanking I heal ~ 20% of all my incoming damage. which depending on the encounter could be as little as 300 hps to as much as 1k hps.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A guilded berzerker and my paladin are very close to the same stats. I have 0.8% more mitigation, he has 0.6% more avoidance, he has 3% more critical mitigation, my parry is 1.4% higher, I have 6% more parry/reposte incoming attacks in effects and adornments (uncontested), I have 1.1% more block, I have 140 more health, we both have mythicals (his 5% damage reduction, my 10% and reactive heal) and my spell resists are at least 2k higher each. In a woe raid, his zerker will need 1.9k hps on Gelidus Ventus, and my paladin will need 2.2k hps on the same mob. Chain stunning the mob is a large part of what paladins do when they tank to prevent taking damage, but this doesn't apply on epics which means it's largely going to be purely about how well you take hits. I could go more into the comparison and eliminate all other considerations, but it would end up being a wall of text so just trust me that I've accounted for any reasonable influencing factors because I hate being called unthurough and having to post a huge response explaining everything because someone wont have a little faith or assumes I'm biased.</p><p>The point is that since the % parry/reposte incoming attacks from effects or adornments are uncontested, and I have higher damage reduction why does it take more heals on my paladin than his zerker? That contradicts the whole statement about paladins being able to take damage better just because of the mythical. Of course, if we get into the scenario of using our abilities and everything, he'll require more heals on mobs that can be stunned because thats a large part of a paladin's damage prevention.</p><p>Agro lock has nothing to do with this scenario seeing as the next highest in hate was below 50%. Those numbers came from just incoming heals on him and on me (and I subtracted Touch of Life which amounted to 244 hps in addition to the 2,195 hps for a total of 2439 which is the average from 3 fights on the same name with the same members in raid just like the number for the zerker).</p></blockquote><p>On the surface those numbers( 1.9k -vs- 2.2k) or differences are what I would expect between Warrior -vs- a Crusader at similar gear levels. Crusader should require more healing than a Warrior. Personally i think those numbers are too close considering the advantages a Crusader has across other areas of the game.</p></blockquote><p>Crusaders *always* need more healing than Warriors... look at those stats again with temp buffs up and split the difference.</p><p>A paladins greatest advantage is actually he can control the incoming damage more for whlist a warrior has temp buffs these are finiate in the bonuses they give. A paladin's self heals on the other hand can be enhanced by use of cast /recast speed +heal and heal crit An SK has a similar effect but they have to spam lifetaps more.</p><p>Just to stress the point home more. On average when tanking I heal ~ 20% of all my incoming damage. which depending on the encounter could be as little as 300 hps to as much as 1k hps.</p></blockquote><p>On a hit-per-hit or heal/second basis yes.  But from what ive seen fights tanked by a Crusader are shorter and require healing  others in the group less which to me means less healing overall.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>No, Crusaders do take more damage, and a good % of their healing comes from self healing.  Boli is right with what he is talking about for the most part.  If you check out a parse when I am tanking versus the Guard I do take quite a bit more damage, but it is made up for by the amount that I heal myself as well through lifetaps.  Hhhmmm, almost sounds like the whole concept SOE had in mind in the first place is working as intended.  Crusaders taking slightly more damage but healing themselves to make up the difference.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, Crusaders do take more damage, and a good % of their healing comes from self healing.  Boli is right with what he is talking about for the most part.  If you check out a parse when I am tanking versus the Guard I do take quite a bit more damage, but it is made up for by the amount that I heal myself as well through lifetaps.  Hhhmmm, almost sounds like the whole concept SOE had in mind in the first place is working as intended.  Crusaders taking slightly more damage but healing themselves to make up the difference.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm, the difference in incoming damage between equally geared players isn't nearly as large as the amount of heals the crusader receives.</p><p>The crusader can get the same avoidance numbers as a guard (probably higher), they can get within 1-2% of the mitigation numbers.  The only difference is the stoneskins on guard, and I assure you in our case the amount of heals from the crusader is > the amount of damage prevented on stoneskins.</p><p>Now 90% of the time as a guard I have to run DW to have remotely the same aggro potential as a crusader, and when I go DW, the crusader beats me on avoidance and incoming damage reduction by miles.  So I really don't agree with your supisition here.  And of course at this point, my stoneskins are not available in DW.</p><p>The key differentiating factor is the guard gets to choose exactly when those stoneskins are used.  Maybe thats enough to say that is balanced, I don't really agree unless you change crusaders to only be able to generate full dps potential in 2hand stance.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, Crusaders do take more damage, and a good % of their healing comes from self healing. Boli is right with what he is talking about for the most part. If you check out a parse when I am tanking versus the Guard I do take quite a bit more damage, but it is made up for by the amount that I heal myself as well through lifetaps. Hhhmmm, almost sounds like the whole concept SOE had in mind in the first place is working as intended. Crusaders taking slightly more damage but healing themselves to make up the difference.</p></blockquote><p>You keep ignoring the fact that for the vast majority of the content out there a Guard HAS to duel wield to even have any hope of holding aggro....and even still its only a fraction of what you can do with sword/board.   The whole "well Guardians take less DMG so everythign is balanced" is BS when in fact we take alot more DMG since more often than not we cannot use a shield.  I really wish Crusaders were somehow forced to have to use a 2hander to hold aggro or DPS.  Maybe go and try to tank something with just your Mythical and no shield?. I bet your aggro would still be OP but at least you would see what its like "surviveability" wise to not be able to use your shield.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, Crusaders do take more damage, and a good % of their healing comes from self healing. Boli is right with what he is talking about for the most part. If you check out a parse when I am tanking versus the Guard I do take quite a bit more damage, but it is made up for by the amount that I heal myself as well through lifetaps. Hhhmmm, almost sounds like the whole concept SOE had in mind in the first place is working as intended. Crusaders taking slightly more damage but healing themselves to make up the difference.</p></blockquote><p>You keep ignoring the fact that for the vast majority of the content out there a Guard HAS to duel wield to even have any hope of holding aggro....and even still its only a fraction of what you can do with sword/board.   The whole "well Guardians take less DMG so everythign is balanced" is BS when in fact we take alot more DMG since more often than not we cannot use a shield.  I really wish Crusaders were somehow forced to have to use a 2hander to hold aggro or DPS.  Maybe go and try to tank something with just your Mythical and no shield?. I bet your aggro would still be OP but at least you would see what its like "surviveability" wise to not be able to use your shield.</p></blockquote><p>And once again this is a total load.  Our Guard only DW's on trash that a mage could tank.  Anything else he is using his board and he holds agro.  No matter what tank you are on raids you have to have a group set up for hate otherwise others are going to rip, period.</p><p>Now keep in mind, like usual I speak from a raid stand-point.  That is what I play that is what I see.  I raid.  At the raid level 1-2% in any area can mean a big difference in damage.  Just like stoneskins make a huge difference in the amount of damage taken.  Not ony that but a SK lifetapping and Paladin heals don't do anything when they are full health...its not like a heal goes into regen'ing a ward or anything.</p><p>So your "vast" majority of content might mean group instances that any scout and some mages can tank because the damage taken is no where near what is gettin put out on raid zones to tanks.  Of course, Guards were made to MT...I mean that has always been their argument.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now keep in mind, like usual I speak from a raid stand-point. That is what I play that is what I see. I raid.</p></blockquote><p>So because everything is just fine at the very top end of raiding everything is balanced and fine everywhere? </p><p>I guess your saying that the only Guards twith the best gear, the trak shield, the absolute best group construction are the basis by which balance of fighters should be judged?</p><p>In the grand scheme of "content" and what people take part in everyday they log on.......how much does top end raiding actually make up?</p><p>If something is ok 5% of the time but broken the other 95% then its broken.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Then by your own statement a paladin with the best gear available (more specifically having their mythical since its damage reduction/heal outweighs anything else on other gear really) should be the judgement point for what determines their ability to take damage as a class?</p><p>The mythical for a paladin is a HUGE amount of the classes overall survivability and unfortunately thats its main purpose; to be another effective shield instead of being a dedicated weapon with an added survivability bonus on the side.  Those that don't have it effectively are missing a huge portion of their survivability.  Warriors get their temp buffs regardless of if they have their mythical or not.  Paladins do not get their survivability mythical bonus unless they have it equiped.</p><p>I'm not saying the paladin mythical should be nerfed, nor am I saying that they're so pathetically gimpy that they are getting rocked by the solo mobs, nor am I saying that no one else has their concerns about their classes in respect to reliance on dps to hold agro or their survivability.  I am saying that calling the paladin the best tank for taking damage and/or agro and waving the pitchforks and torches to nerf paladins because they're so madly OPed is a faulty mindset.  As a class on a whole, they could use some help on their own tools so that they are less dependant on x particular effect on a piece of gear or x particular ability that consequently is as weak or as OPed as it's target.</p><p>As a whole the paladin is very in balance because they have their stregnths that they excel very well at, and they have their weaknesses that cripple them silly, and unfortunately those conditions are more dependant on other players than other tank's are.  At the high end raiding levels most understand what not to do even if they don't understand how much of a difference that makes on a classes functioning or how much the class relies on specific conditions that are met that otherwise wouldn't be under group or individual circumstances.</p><p>Just because the paladin looks madly OPed when things function properly doesn't mean that they really are; it just means that things were setup right.  The paladin in general has an easier time getting a good setup and is more flexible, but that is their intended role and it does not mean that they require a good setup any less in order to be awesome at tanking all around.</p><p>As far as showing the crusaders what horrible agro issues are like, you obviously didn't see the state shadowknights were in up until their major buffing, and you have absolutely no clue how hard it is as a paladin where the high dpsers are bouncing back and forth on the parse or people insist on putting all their hate transfers on you.  While it may not be as frequent, we do understand what agro issues are like because we do have times (alot more frequently than you may think) where our agro is absolutely terrible thanks to players not understanding how to work with our hate but too many people are too busy waving their pitchforks and torches to see that.</p>

[Ol]

<p>Paladins by class definition are single target tanks, so how come they are probably the best aoe tanks? just curious.</p>

[Lord Hackenslash]

<p><cite>Ocik@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Paladins by <strong>class definition</strong> are single target tanks, so how come they are probably the best aoe tanks? just curious.</p></blockquote><p>Paladins are not now and have never been simply single target tanks. What you were referring to was a classification that never made it off test server when the tank changes were proposed. Even when they made that proposed classification they did nothing to make it the case. </p><p>Ocik it was roughly the equivalent of someone saying "your name is Bob, I didn't change your name in any way but I am calling you Bob because I said so." That is one of many reasons the tank changes never went through. They said one thing but they never did anything to make it happen. In the case of paladins they declared them a ST tank but left them with about 7 AoEs (number is approximate I dont play a paladin personally)</p><p>So to sum up Paladins are not single target tanks and the definition of Single target tank and AoE tank does not exist. Some tanks are better at one or the other but it has nothing to do with any "Definition"</p>

[Boli32]

<p>Paladins actually have more blue AoEs than any other class.</p><p>Smite Evil (AA Choice)</p><p>Circle of Conviction</p><p>Doom Judement</p><p>Holy Circle</p><p>Castigate</p><p>Consecrate</p><p>Hammer Gound (AA Choice)</p><p>Also, The myth clicky pet does AoE damage (whos hate is automatcially transfered to the Paladin</p><p>Trample (AA Choice)</p><p>And mutagenic Gear</p><p>We also have a AE Nuke (Brimstone) and an AE Taunt (Righteousness), Sigil (Group hate transfer), Amends (Single target but could also be from a warlock)</p><p>Which means there are 13 different ways for a paladin to hold agro against a group of mobs.... No, we are not single target.</p><p>EDIT: forgot bane warding, 14.</p>