Tanking and Aggro [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 05:53 PM

i love tanking. tanking is working to hold aggro. will SOE ever either make Crusaders into tanks or give tanks an advantage over Crusaders: or can we expect EQ2 to go the way of WoW and abolish tanking and replace it with what Crusaders are now, i know not what to refer to them as, other then abominations.

Seidhkona

08-17-2009, 06:40 PM

Wake up lad! Crusaders are DEFINITELY tanks. If you are having trouble holding aggro, chances are that you need to change some things around.Let me review for you... all of these classes are "tanks":<ul><li>Guardian</li><li>Berzerker</li><li>Paladin</li><li>Shadowknight</li><li>Monk</li><li>Bruiser</li></ul>In short, non-run-on sentences, can you explain to us what class you are and how you are having problems holding aggro? Chances are good that you can improve something, whether it be gear, AA spec, technique.

Aerfen

08-17-2009, 07:06 PM

Got jump in on this too...Drifa is absolutely correct. Crusaders ARE tanks. Please be more specific with your issues and perhaps those of us who know how to play Crusaders, and play them well can help. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 08:29 PM

Crusaders arent tanks, because Crusaders dont work to have aggro, they have it handed to them and a tank's job is to work to hold aggro. Crusaders are Abominations, because they create an enviroment hostile to tanks, not just in eq2, but whichever mmo that people play after playing eq2. my question is if SOE is gonna give people a reason to group with a tank instead of grouping with a Crusader. Assuming that they arent gonna make Crusaders into tanks. Or if anyone who wants to tank in a MMO should look to a different mmo. calling a crusader a tank is like calling someone who goes afk the whole instance on auto-follow and can keep people up better then a healer, a healer. it wouldnt be a healer, it would be an abomination. Crusaders are not tanks, they're Abominations.

epyon333

08-17-2009, 08:46 PM

lots of health, check.lots of defence, checktools to hold aggro, checkyeap crusaders are tanks. they might be stronger tanks then warriors and monks right now, but they've been called on that so much id expect it to change a bit next expansion.

Brook

08-17-2009, 09:04 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>lots of health, check.lots of defence, checktools to hold aggro, checkyeap crusaders are tanks. they might be stronger tanks then warriors and monks right now, but they've been called on that so much id expect it to change a bit next expansion.</blockquote>you seem alittle slow, so i'll explain it using something you probably have real life experiance with. you say, you want to drive a car. your parents get you a seat on the shortbus. you're not driving a car, you're on the shortbus. crusaders are not tanks, they are on the short bus. yes, driving a car, and taking the shortbus can both get you from A to B, but one is driving a car, and one is riding on the short bus, despite them having many simularities, such as both having 4 wheels, an internal combustion engine, suspension, ect. but thats not relevent. im asking if i can drive a car, or if they're gonna have everyone ride teh shortbus. are there gonna be fighters that are desirable that are gonna work for aggro, or is aggro either gonna be super easy for all the classes, or make the classes that have it super easy clearly superior to the real tanks?</blockquote>The short bus has six wheels actually, seven if you count the one you steer with.

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 09:34 PM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good gravy!It used to be that guardians were the only tanks anyone wanted. Welcome to what used to be my world. Wait six months and SOE will diddle the balance again.In the mean time, Sir Sour Grapes, quit whining and tank using the tools you have. If you are having issues holding aggro, talk to your group. I can't grab and hold aggro if I have a T3 myth-equipped wizzie starting to nuke before I have both taunted and hit whatever I'm pulling. Tell your group to count to three before they unload on a mob. You can hold aggro just fine.If you're the Atavax who is a guard on Antonia Bayle, you are raid geared, for cry-ay-ay. There's no reason you can't hold aggro. My mystic raids with a zerker tanking and he does just fine holding aggro.</blockquote>im not upset that my class isnt the most desired class as tank. i want to know if SOE is moving towards short bussing it for all tanks. because i play mmo's to tank, not to have aggro handed to me. Guardians are [Removed for Content], fine, i'll roll the one in demand, or wait, the ones in demand dont actually tank, they have aggro handed to them. so i can either perform subpar by tanking, or not tank or leave the game. i want the option to be able to tank without gimping the group. i want to know if that is gonna happen. if by raid geared you mean 1 piece of raid gear from ROK and zero from TSO, you are right.

epyon333

08-17-2009, 09:43 PM

Yeah he does sound like a he's upset he's not playing the best tank class anyone. Only brawlers have a reason to cry about there class any more. They almost always get passed up over plate tanks since the game started.Lol where was that bad lock doing 5k. I dont look too much into Befallen:COA parses. Ive out parsed Wizzys and Assys in there. A group DPS'er will put up crazy numbers in there. but in COA 20K between 6 mobs (i think 6) so thats 3.3k per mob.

epyon333

08-17-2009, 09:45 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good gravy!It used to be that guardians were the only tanks anyone wanted. Welcome to what used to be my world. Wait six months and SOE will diddle the balance again.In the mean time, Sir Sour Grapes, quit whining and tank using the tools you have. If you are having issues holding aggro, talk to your group. I can't grab and hold aggro if I have a T3 myth-equipped wizzie starting to nuke before I have both taunted and hit whatever I'm pulling. Tell your group to count to three before they unload on a mob. You can hold aggro just fine.If you're the Atavax who is a guard on Antonia Bayle, you are raid geared, for cry-ay-ay. There's no reason you can't hold aggro. My mystic raids with a zerker tanking and he does just fine holding aggro.</blockquote>im not upset that my class isnt the most desired class as tank. i want to know if SOE is moving towards short bussing it for all tanks. because i play mmo's to tank, not to have aggro handed to me. Guardians are [Removed for Content], fine, i'll roll the one in demand, or wait, the ones in demand dont actually tank, they have aggro handed to them. so i can either perform subpar by tanking, or not tank or leave the game. i want the option to be able to tank without gimping the group. i want to know if that is gonna happen. if by raid geared you mean 1 piece of raid gear from ROK and zero from TSO, you are right.</blockquote>well they are still trying to revamp the fighter revamp that [Removed for Content] everyone one off that didnt want to play a guardian and got scrapped

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 09:46 PM

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah he does sound like a he's upset he's not playing the best tank class anyone. Only brawlers have a reason to cry about there class any more. They almost always get passed up over plate tanks since the game started.Lol where was that bad lock doing 5k. I dont look too much into Befallen:COA parses. Ive out parsed Wizzys and Assys in there. A group DPS'er will put up crazy numbers in there. but in COA 20K between 6 mobs (i think 6) so thats 3.3k per mob.</blockquote> i want to know if SOE is moving towards short bussing it for all tanks. because i play mmo's to tank, not to have aggro handed to me. Guardians are [Removed for Content], fine, i'll roll the one in demand, or wait, the ones in demand dont actually tank, they have aggro handed to them. so i can either perform subpar by tanking, or not tank or leave the game. i want the option to be able to tank without gimping the groupposted this before i updated page and saw your last pot before this

epyon333

08-17-2009, 09:48 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>A dirge should make a group more efficient, it shouldn't be the key to being able to play.</blockquote>it isnt, i've tanked all of POF without a dirge, on my guardian with zero raid gear.</blockquote>I didn't say we didnt complete the zone. We did. It was however a major major annoyance to come to the realization that this game has basically been built around one class.Troll much?

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 09:49 PM

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol where was that bad lock doing 5k. I dont look too much into Befallen:COA parses. Ive out parsed Wizzys and Assys in there. A group DPS'er will put up crazy numbers in there. but in COA 20K between 6 mobs (i think 6) so thats 3.3k per mob.</blockquote>i recently outparsed a t2 wiz in re2 :p i posted parse in 70-79 and everyone made fun of him, good times.

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 09:50 PM

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote> <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>A dirge should make a group more efficient, it shouldn't be the key to being able to play.</blockquote>it isnt, i've tanked all of POF without a dirge, on my guardian with zero raid gear.</blockquote>I didn't say we didnt complete the zone. We did. It was however a major major annoyance to come to the realization that this game has basically been built around one class.Troll much?</blockquote>wrong thread buddy.

epyon333

08-17-2009, 09:56 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol where was that bad lock doing 5k. I dont look too much into Befallen:COA parses. Ive out parsed Wizzys and Assys in there. A group DPS'er will put up crazy numbers in there. but in COA 20K between 6 mobs (i think 6) so thats 3.3k per mob.</blockquote>i recently outparsed a t2 wiz in re2 :p i posted parse in 70-79 and everyone made fun of him, good times.</blockquote>well that is sad but i was trying to point out group toons (zerkers, locks, swashie, necro,) have inflated parses in that zone bc theres some many mobs in one group. and that even a sub par play of any of those classes can still easily parse high. you did miss telling where that 5k lock was at.

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 10:00 PM

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>well that is sad but i was trying to point out group toons (zerkers, locks, swashie, necro,) have inflated parses in that zone bc theres some many mobs in one group. and that even a sub par play of any of those classes can still easily parse high. you did miss telling where that 5k lock was at.</blockquote>the 5k lock was also in coa befallen. i agree. with your point, but my point wasnt to say 20k is good, but saying a dps that knows how to group with a guardian can do significant dps and not pull, even in AE content. a bad one, doesnt have to do much dps and will still pull.

epyon333

08-17-2009, 10:00 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>A dirge should make a group more efficient, it shouldn't be the key to being able to play.</blockquote>it isnt, i've tanked all of POF without a dirge, on my guardian with zero raid gear.</blockquote>I didn't say we didnt complete the zone. We did. It was however a major major annoyance to come to the realization that this game has basically been built around one class.Troll much?</blockquote>wrong thread buddy.</blockquote>just pointing out how your defending your classes aggro in one thread then crying about how you dont do enough compared to another class in a this thread. If you can hold aggro find with out a dirge and can get groups then what is the problem?

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 10:02 PM

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>just pointing out how your defending your classes aggro in one thread then crying about how you dont do enough compared to another class in a this thread. If you can hold aggro find with out a dirge and can get groups then what is the problem?</blockquote>i am not upset at my classes's current threat gen. and this thread isnt complaining about guardian threat. the problem is that inorder for me to tank (as in work for aggro) in this game, i have to [Removed for Content] my group, because clearly the best fighters atm, for heroic content are the ones that need not work to hold aggro. i want to know if they're planning on making easymode threat and working for threat exist in different classes in a balanced way, or if they're gonna make them all fighters easy mode threat or if they're just gonna keep easy mode threat fighters superior.

epyon333

08-17-2009, 10:04 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>well that is sad but i was trying to point out group toons (zerkers, locks, swashie, necro,) have inflated parses in that zone bc theres some many mobs in one group. and that even a sub par play of any of those classes can still easily parse high. you did miss telling where that 5k lock was at.</blockquote>the 5k lock was also in coa befallen. i agree. with your point, but my point wasnt to say 20k is good, but saying a dps that knows how to group with a guardian can do significant dps and not pull, even in AE content. a bad one, doesnt have to do much dps and will still pull.</blockquote>how could you hold 20k and not 5k?

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 10:06 PM

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>how could you hold 20k and not 5k? </blockquote>because the 20k watched his threat and used de-aggroes and waited a sec for me to hit the targets before he attacked them and the 5k didnt most likely because he was used to crusader tanks.

epyon333

08-17-2009, 10:12 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>just pointing out how your defending your classes aggro in one thread then crying about how you dont do enough compared to another class in a this thread. If you can hold aggro find with out a dirge and can get groups then what is the problem?</blockquote>i am not upset at my classes's current threat gen. and this thread isnt complaining about guardian threat. the problem is that inorder for me to tank (as in work for aggro) in this game, i have to [Removed for Content] my group, because clearly the best fighters atm, for heroic content are the ones that need not work to hold aggro. i want to know if they're planning on making easymode threat and working for threat exist in different classes in a balanced way, or if they're gonna make them all fighters easy mode threat or if they're just gonna keep easy mode threat fighters superior.</blockquote>if you can hold aggro with out a dirge then your not gimping your group. aggro is everyones problem not just the tanks. classes get overpowers, classes get nerfed. crusaders wont always be as good as they are now.

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 10:15 PM

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you can hold aggro with out a dirge then your not gimping your group. aggro is everyones problem not just the tanks. classes get overpowers, classes get nerfed. crusaders wont always be as good as they are now.</blockquote>in that pof group i had a corc and a troub though :paggro is no one's problem when a crusader tanks. and its been that way a long time, no nerf, no recognition theres a problem. looks like their aggro being handed to them will continue.

epyon333

08-17-2009, 10:16 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>how could you hold 20k and not 5k? </blockquote>because the 20k watched his threat and used de-aggroes and waited a sec for me to hit the targets before he attacked them and the 5k didnt most likely because he was used to crusader tanks.</blockquote>well were you having a hard time with aggro the whole fight or just that the beginning? was it a struggle to get aggro back or did it just take a sec. did he wipe the group.

epyon333

08-17-2009, 10:20 PM

Seidhkona

08-17-2009, 11:17 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>because the 20k watched his threat and used de-aggroes and waited a sec for me to hit the targets before he attacked them and the 5k didnt most likely because he was used to crusader tanks.</blockquote>Jeez, guy. If you are such a wuss that you can't stop and tell your group, "Hey, you are ganking aggro, wait until I get the thing pulled, taunted and turned before you unload" then you deserve to lose aggro and not get groups.I honestly do not know anyone that tanks regularly that does not have a macro that says something along the lines of "Give me a second or three before you start DPS so I can get aggro good". If you don't have one, make one.

Atavax311

08-18-2009, 12:43 AM

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you can hold aggro with out a dirge then your not gimping your group. aggro is everyones problem not just the tanks. classes get overpowers, classes get nerfed. crusaders wont always be as good as they are now.</blockquote>in that pof group i had a corc and a troub though :p</blockquote>well why didnt you say that in the other thread. that turning in to a discussion about how some tanks need help with aggro and others dont. you basically said you didnt need any help in that thread.</blockquote>the guy was claiming that a dirge was needed, i said a dirge wasnt needed

Atavax311

08-18-2009, 12:44 AM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>because the 20k watched his threat and used de-aggroes and waited a sec for me to hit the targets before he attacked them and the 5k didnt most likely because he was used to crusader tanks.</blockquote>Jeez, guy. If you are such a wuss that you can't stop and tell your group, "Hey, you are ganking aggro, wait until I get the thing pulled, taunted and turned before you unload" then you deserve to lose aggro and not get groups.I honestly do not know anyone that tanks regularly that does not have a macro that says something along the lines of "Give me a second or three before you start DPS so I can get aggro good". If you don't have one, make one.</blockquote>oh, i m ade sure to yell out instructions, noobs typically dont listen though.

Seidhkona

08-18-2009, 01:23 AM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>oh, i m ade sure to yell out instructions, noobs typically dont listen though.</blockquote>What is it, exactly, that you want SOE to do? Are you just asking them to nerf crusaders so you feel big again? Or were you just posting to gripe?If you actually wanted advice, then take some of the excellent feedback that has been offered to you.

epyon333

08-18-2009, 02:24 AM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you can hold aggro with out a dirge then your not gimping your group. aggro is everyones problem not just the tanks. classes get overpowers, classes get nerfed. crusaders wont always be as good as they are now.</blockquote>in that pof group i had a corc and a troub though :p</blockquote>well why didnt you say that in the other thread. that turning in to a discussion about how some tanks need help with aggro and others dont. you basically said you didnt need any help in that thread.</blockquote>the guy was claiming that a dirge was needed, i said a dirge wasnt needed</blockquote>True but the way you stated it suggested that you had no help with aggro, but you did have help.

Atavax311

08-18-2009, 06:24 AM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>oh, i m ade sure to yell out instructions, noobs typically dont listen though.</blockquote>What is it, exactly, that you want SOE to do? Are you just asking them to nerf crusaders so you feel big again? Or were you just posting to gripe?If you actually wanted advice, then take some of the excellent feedback that has been offered to you.</blockquote>no, im not asking them to nerf crusaders so i can feel big. im asking what the furure holds for the ease of holding aggro; been saying that since the first post, dont see how you still dont get it. i never complained about my guardian's abillity to hold aggro, heck, im relatively happy with how aggro is for me atm. i didnt even mentioned my class until someone asked. this has nothing to do with my current class. it has to do with the direction it appears SOE is taking tanking. they've revamped crusaders, gave them easymode aggro. has been many months, they havent nerfed them at all. they have designed content to take advantage of easymode aggro. they created a fighter revamp giving all fighters easymode aggro, that was rejected by the community. are they gonna get rid of tanking for this game and just have easymode aggro? or are they gonna leave some classes as tanks, and just give them nothing to compete against the easymode aggro with, or is an aggro nerf to Crusader inc?

Murchik

08-18-2009, 09:38 AM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>how could you hold 20k and not 5k? </blockquote>because the 20k watched his threat and used de-aggroes and waited a sec for me to hit the targets before he attacked them and the 5k didnt most likely because he was used to crusader tanks.</blockquote>you could not hold agro of 20k warlock any better then you could of 5k warlock. 20k dps warlock didnt get agro because mobs in COA died before going for him

Seidhkona

08-18-2009, 11:45 AM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>no, im not asking them to nerf crusaders so i can feel big.</blockquote>But you are asking that Crusaders be nerfed. And it certainly looks as if you are demanding that Crusaders be nerfed to compensate for your personal inadequacy as a tank. You have said in the last several posts:<ul><li>"...will SOE ever either make Crusaders into tanks or give tanks an advantage over Crusaders..."</li><li>"Crusaders are Abominations, because they create an enviroment hostile to tanks, not just in eq2, but whichever mmo that people play after playing eq2. my question is if SOE is gonna give people a reason to group with a tank instead of grouping with a Crusader."</li><li>"...are there gonna be fighters that are desirable that are gonna work for aggro, or is aggro either gonna be super easy for all the classes, or make the classes that have it super easy clearly superior to the real tanks?"</li></ul> <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>im asking what the furure holds for the ease of holding aggro; been saying that since the first post, dont see how you still dont get it.</blockquote>Answering the second part first. Your posts are REALLY hard to read because you run everything together, you don't capitalize with any regularity, and you don't include any line breaks between thoughts.I think at this point everyone is aware that what Shadowknights have is probably too good to last. But honest to goshen, Paladins are about right where we are. I don't have fabulous tools for single-target snap aggro -- guardians DO have that. What a paladin can do that a guardian can't is to AOE the livin' daylights out of stuff. I have a hard time generating as much DPS (and DPS=hate) as a guardian, UNLESS I am able to AOE multiple mobs. This seems to me a good balance - the Guardian is the single target aggro specialist, Crusaders are better at AOE aggro. <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i never complained about my guardian's abillity to hold aggro, heck, im relatively happy with how aggro is for me atm.</blockquote>Dude, you need to get your story straight here. You said, "i cant hold aggro off a bad warlock doing 5k". That's not an aggro problem, by the way. It's a failure in your ability to act as a leader. Aggro management is NOT the sole responsibility of the tank. It's each player's responsibility to control their aggro so they don't get the whole group killed. If people are nuking too soon, or opening with Decapitate, it's YOUR job as tank to explain why that is bad and ask them to use a little self-restraint. <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i didnt even mentioned my class until someone asked. this has nothing to do with my current class.</blockquote>I think it has everything to do with your current class and some BSD comparisons with other classes. You said:<ul><li>"Guardians are [Removed for Content], fine, i'll roll the one in demand, or wait, the ones in demand dont actually tank, they have aggro handed to them. so i can either perform subpar by tanking, or not tank or leave the game. i want the option to be able to tank without gimping the group. i want to know if that is gonna happen."</li></ul>Again, I suggest you quit whining because other classes have advantages and just learn to play your class excellently. I tell you again, I have seen PLENTY of guardians and zerkers holding aggro just fine in both groups and raids. If you can't manage that, then you need to figure out who the GOOD tanks are on your server and ask them to school you in how it's done. I suggest some of these guys: Keigo, Sadar, Brickz, Thorak, Grudgekeeper, Arrarik. I bet one of them has a clue. <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote> it has to do with the direction it appears SOE is taking tanking. they've revamped crusaders, gave them easymode aggro. has been many months, they havent nerfed them at all. </blockquote>Jeez, we have a big game update planned, we all know they're working on it. You say "hop" and you're expecting them to ask you "how high, sir?" on the way up.Do you have a character on Test? If not, why not? That's where people contribute to the direction EQ2 is going. Do you regularly read the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=746" target="_blank">Test Update Notes Forum</a> and the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=748" target="_blank">In Testing Feedback Forum</a> to see what has been suggested, and do you post your concerns there where they might be seen and addressed by the devs working on new content? If not, why not? <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>they have designed content to take advantage of easymode aggro. they created a fighter revamp giving all fighters easymode aggro, that was rejected by the community. are they gonna get rid of tanking for this game and just have easymode aggro? or are they gonna leave some classes as tanks, and just give them nothing to compete against the easymode aggro with, or is an aggro nerf to Crusader inc?</blockquote>You have absolutely zero idea of how easy or hard it is to get and hold aggro if you do not also play a Crusader. There certainly is no "easy mode aggro" for Paladins. I have to have a few seconds to get aggro and build up a bit of hate or I can't hold it at all. Even Shadowknights, with Deathmarch and some of their wicked awesome damage, sometimes need a second or three to get aggro built up.I say it again - learn to play your class excellently with the tools you have. Instead of wasting time whining about how everyone else has it better and the grass is greener on the other side of the fence yadda yadda, ask some real guardians to teach you what you are doing wrong and learn from them.

Huntress Jellica

08-18-2009, 12:02 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you can hold aggro with out a dirge then your not gimping your group. aggro is everyones problem not just the tanks. classes get overpowers, classes get nerfed. crusaders wont always be as good as they are now.</blockquote>in that pof group i had a corc and a troub though :paggro is no one's problem when a crusader tanks. and its been that way a long time, no nerf, no recognition theres a problem. looks like their aggro being handed to them will continue.</blockquote>Well, gee, I seem to remember when every other tank class sucked except for guardians back in the days of RoK.. and EoF.. and.. oh my, almost the entire game. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />Crusaders might have it easier now than they ever have with aggro, but that doesn't mean it takes no skill to tank as one. I've seen plenty of well geared crusaders absolutely sucking as tanks (even paladins with amends!). So, sorry, but not interested in buying what you're selling.

Yimway

08-18-2009, 12:43 PM

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah he does sound like a he's upset he's not playing the best tank class anyone. </blockquote>Know, he's upset cause he doesn't have a single button to press that guaranty's agro in every possible situation.Well, actually he's upset that crusaders DO have that button and he's saying it should be removed.

Siatfallen

08-18-2009, 12:51 PM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>no, im not asking them to nerf crusaders so i can feel big.</blockquote>But you are asking that Crusaders be nerfed. And it certainly looks as if you are demanding that Crusaders be nerfed to compensate for your personal inadequacy as a tank. You have said in the last several posts:<ul><li>"...will SOE ever either make Crusaders into tanks or give tanks an advantage over Crusaders..."</li><li>"Crusaders are Abominations, because they create an enviroment hostile to tanks, not just in eq2, but whichever mmo that people play after playing eq2. my question is if SOE is gonna give people a reason to group with a tank instead of grouping with a Crusader."</li><li>"...are there gonna be fighters that are desirable that are gonna work for aggro, or is aggro either gonna be super easy for all the classes, or make the classes that have it super easy clearly superior to the real tanks?"</li></ul> <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>im asking what the furure holds for the ease of holding aggro; been saying that since the first post, dont see how you still dont get it.</blockquote>Answering the second part first. Your posts are REALLY hard to read because you run everything together, you don't capitalize with any regularity, and you don't include any line breaks between thoughts.I think at this point everyone is aware that what Shadowknights have is probably too good to last. But honest to goshen, Paladins are about right where we are. I don't have fabulous tools for single-target snap aggro -- guardians DO have that. What a paladin can do that a guardian can't is to AOE the livin' daylights out of stuff. I have a hard time generating as much DPS (and DPS=hate) as a guardian, UNLESS I am able to AOE multiple mobs. This seems to me a good balance - the Guardian is the single target aggro specialist, Crusaders are better at AOE aggro. <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i never complained about my guardian's abillity to hold aggro, heck, im relatively happy with how aggro is for me atm.</blockquote>Dude, you need to get your story straight here. You said, "i cant hold aggro off a bad warlock doing 5k". That's not an aggro problem, by the way. It's a failure in your ability to act as a leader. Aggro management is NOT the sole responsibility of the tank. It's each player's responsibility to control their aggro so they don't get the whole group killed. If people are nuking too soon, or opening with Decapitate, it's YOUR job as tank to explain why that is bad and ask them to use a little self-restraint. <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i didnt even mentioned my class until someone asked. this has nothing to do with my current class.</blockquote>I think it has everything to do with your current class and some BSD comparisons with other classes. You said:<ul><li>"Guardians are [Removed for Content], fine, i'll roll the one in demand, or wait, the ones in demand dont actually tank, they have aggro handed to them. so i can either perform subpar by tanking, or not tank or leave the game. i want the option to be able to tank without gimping the group. i want to know if that is gonna happen."</li></ul>Again, I suggest you quit whining because other classes have advantages and just learn to play your class excellently. I tell you again, I have seen PLENTY of guardians and zerkers holding aggro just fine in both groups and raids. If you can't manage that, then you need to figure out who the GOOD tanks are on your server and ask them to school you in how it's done. I suggest some of these guys: Keigo, Sadar, Brickz, Thorak, Grudgekeeper, Arrarik. I bet one of them has a clue. <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote> it has to do with the direction it appears SOE is taking tanking. they've revamped crusaders, gave them easymode aggro. has been many months, they havent nerfed them at all. </blockquote>Jeez, we have a big game update planned, we all know they're working on it. You say "hop" and you're expecting them to ask you "how high, sir?" on the way up.Do you have a character on Test? If not, why not? That's where people contribute to the direction EQ2 is going. Do you regularly read the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=746" target="_blank">Test Update Notes Forum</a> and the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=748" target="_blank">In Testing Feedback Forum</a> to see what has been suggested, and do you post your concerns there where they might be seen and addressed by the devs working on new content? If not, why not? <cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>they have designed content to take advantage of easymode aggro. they created a fighter revamp giving all fighters easymode aggro, that was rejected by the community. are they gonna get rid of tanking for this game and just have easymode aggro? or are they gonna leave some classes as tanks, and just give them nothing to compete against the easymode aggro with, or is an aggro nerf to Crusader inc?</blockquote>You have absolutely zero idea of how easy or hard it is to get and hold aggro if you do not also play a Crusader. There certainly is no "easy mode aggro" for Paladins. I have to have a few seconds to get aggro and build up a bit of hate or I can't hold it at all. Even Shadowknights, with Deathmarch and some of their wicked awesome damage, sometimes need a second or three to get aggro built up.I say it again - learn to play your class excellently with the tools you have. Instead of wasting time whining about how everyone else has it better and the grass is greener on the other side of the fence yadda yadda, ask some real guardians to teach you what you are doing wrong and learn from them. </blockquote>Hey there, just thought I'd add:I happen to have been an officer in Soulforged for a while (the guild Keigo used to lead), and talked with Keigo about aggro and tSO at length. He was the guild Guardian, I was the Monk... I assume you can see why we'd have similar gripes with AoE aggro.Now I'm happy to hear you direct others to him for advice, but he's sadly not, y'know, playing the game anymore. But from what i heard from him: He didn't want to bother running groups anymore, and certainly not ever without aggro tools to help him.Basically, running stuff like Outer Sanctum with him as a tank (which I did a time or two while DPSing) was a pain, because AoE aggro would be such a headache. The class doesn't have sufficient tools to handle that, and must rely on outside help which, at times, we didn't have online.I also happened to run the same instance with a Shadowknight, and there's no comparison in what was and wasn't possible to handle aggrowise. You happened to say it yourself: Keigo's a pretty good tank. Now the problems presented by the OP here may be exaggerated - but they are certainly present.Also, Paladins and aggro: So you don't have snap aggro (aside from rescue, which every fighter has)? Okay... But did they finally decide to take amends away while I wasn't paying attention? Because if not, I don't see how you would ever have problems holding aggro, aside from memwiping mobs - especially not with research assistants out long enough to pretty much guarantee that every paladin above level 50 will/should have a master Amends, except if they're not in a guild who has that amenity in their guild hall.

Kiara

08-18-2009, 01:36 PM

Ya know... I was trying to clean it up, but I've decided that this thread serves no real purpose other than to get people riled up.To the OP: Calling your fellow posters stupid and saying that they ride the short bus is not the way to keep your posting privileges intact for long. This violates the cardinal rule of these forums and I think a quick check at the "If I said this to someone IRL would they punch me" bar.To everyone else: <3!!!