Brawlers - 4 year break. Then and now. (aka - [Removed for Content]?) [Archive]

Paperninja

08-13-2009, 04:55 PM

So I haven't played EQ in 3-4 years. When I originally played I chose to roll a monk. I played a monk in the original EQ in a high end raiding guild on Veeshan server (before switching to Beastlorrd). I was part of the group that helped FoH clear PoP before anybody else. I thought I would enjoy playing a monk and hoped I would due to the fact I really don't want to play any other class. Maybe it's a little too much for me to assume that my class would have some role or niche in the game. Maybe it's ok for some classes to be [Removed for Content] near useless. Maybe I would call that a design flaw that should be hotfixed instead of waiting for an expansion to come out to address.4 years ago - Monks were in the fighter archtype and thus were supposed to be tanks. However, they did high damage and most people would say that they were never meant to be tanks. Sony did not seem to have an answer. Some people tanked as a monk and did "ok". Though tanking as a monk required 3x the effort as tanking with any other fighter. Why is this? Because we have cool animations? We were a class that didn't have a defined role. Nobody wanted us to tank and there was much better DPS to be found. We could solo. Good thing too. See nothing being done or mentioned about my class being utterly neglected I left. This kind of reminds me of how paladins were treated in EQ1.** insert 4 years of WOWTwo days ago - Monks are in the fighter archtype and thus we are supposed to be tanks. However, we can't tank end game content at all. We even have a hard time tanking group content. You could say we were DPS, but that would be a lie. Even other fighter archtypes (who are legitmate tanks) will out-dps us. Some people tank and do "ok". Why does tanking as a monk require 3x the amount of effort as other tank classes? Nobody wants a monk as a tank (Plate tank only plz) and they can find much better dps. I can solo. Good thing too. I look on the forums and see no development responses to anything. I see plenty of Monk/Bruiser flame wars, but even those are starting to die down since basically both classes are equally screwed.4 years? 4 years??? How has this gone on for 4 years? Is the brawler community too busy fighting amongst itself to get anything noticed? Are developers blind? Do they even care? What in the hell is going on?I'm not going to just flame and point without offering any type of suggestions. I'll offer some advice and who know, it may actually be read by somebody, somewhere, who can make a difference.1 - The hybrid fighter. You want the monk to be the hybrid fighter. It can DPS (though not as well as pure), It can Tank (though not as well as pure). How do you do this? - In my opinion the easiest way to accomplish this is through stances. A stance system is already in place so all we really have to do is alter the stances and base abilities themselves. It goes without saying that as it stands right now, the monk does not do enough DPS to compete and does not tank well enough to compete. So the absolute easiest thing to do in order to fix this is to buff the hell out of their stances. Make their defense stance increase their mitigation to plate levels and make their dps stance increase damage (%dmg! not haste, not anything that can be capped). A third stance that is combination of dps and defense which is used for soloing and pvp is a no brainer.

Yimway

08-13-2009, 05:32 PM

<cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>4 years? 4 years??? How has this gone on for 4 years? Is the brawler community too busy fighting amongst itself to get anything noticed? Are developers blind? Do they even care? What in the hell is going on?</blockquote>You answered your own question. They don't care. Even the solutions they have going forward to make them raid desireable doesn't actually make them tank better or make them dps better. Sounds to me like their plan is to make you a support class for other fighters.

Aull

08-13-2009, 05:47 PM

Brawlers avoidance issues are suppose to be re worked to actually be of worth in the future. If so then both brawlers will possibly have more tanking appeal.My issue is that most brawlers have always seen themselves as just dps when in reality they never really were a true dps class.

Paperninja

08-13-2009, 06:00 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers avoidance issues are suppose to be re worked to actually be of worth in the future. If so then both brawlers will possibly have more tanking appeal.My issue is that most brawlers have always seen themselves as just dps when in reality they never really were a true dps class.</blockquote>I'd argue that they were never really anything. They were trying to find a role for themselves and hiding behind the illusion of a DPS class was easier than pretending to be a tank. When you claim to be a tank and aren't, then the truth will be revealed quickly - especially to the healer. When you're saying that you're a DPS and you're not, then the truth is masked behind a wall of numbers that is not easily identifiable.AT LEAST WE SOLO WELL.

Paperninja

08-13-2009, 06:04 PM

Aull

08-13-2009, 06:21 PM

<cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers avoidance issues are suppose to be re worked to actually be of worth in the future. If so then both brawlers will possibly have more tanking appeal.My issue is that most brawlers have always seen themselves as just dps when in reality they never really were a true dps class.</blockquote>So - Are they reworking Strike - Through as well? Or can we tank almost anything except --------> these (everything) <--------- mobs?</blockquote>Not sure on the strikethrough.

Atavax311

08-13-2009, 10:03 PM

biggest problem i see is the assumption that because you're a fighter you're supposed to tank. bards arent melee dps, despite being a scout; and thats not broken. chanters are more utility despite being a mage. thats not broken. brawlers dont use shields and wear inferior armor; i think its obvious SOE should be looking to make them the bard or chanter of the fighter class, not something that is going to be main tank of many raiding guilds. give them the utility so that they're desired in raids despite their inferior dps, and give them to tools to tank 6-mans when a plate tank cant be found, including a healer buff that would make them desirable in 6-mans if there is a plate tank in group already *brawlers fixed* the brawler fix is so much simplier then the plate tank fix; not really even need a discussion for it. the only reason why brawlers arent fixed yet isnt because SOE hasnt thought of a way to fix them, theres just so many ways to fix them, they cant decide.

Aull

08-14-2009, 12:32 AM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>biggest problem i see is the assumption that because you're a fighter you're supposed to tank. bards arent melee dps, despite being a scout; and thats not broken. chanters are more utility despite being a mage. thats not broken. brawlers dont use shields and wear inferior armor; i think its obvious SOE should be looking to make them the bard or chanter of the fighter class, not something that is going to be main tank of many raiding guilds. give them the utility so that they're desired in raids despite their inferior dps, and give them to tools to tank 6-mans when a plate tank cant be found, including a healer buff that would make them desirable in 6-mans if there is a plate tank in group already *brawlers fixed* the brawler fix is so much simplier then the plate tank fix; not really even need a discussion for it. the only reason why brawlers arent fixed yet isnt because SOE hasnt thought of a way to fix them, theres just so many ways to fix them, they cant decide.</blockquote>Chanters are great utility and t1 dps and to me the dps portion is far to high for what all they bring. When chanters are parsing equal and above sorcerers then to me that is an issue because sorcerers have very little utility.Back to the brawlers. I for one would hate to see brawlers become a some what utility class. If anything monks could have more appeal if soe would allow superior repostie to become a group aoe prevention and fix raid wide buff as it was once before. Also rework med healing and they would be in much better shape than now.Bruisers never had any utility so to speak for group members. They basically were never known for defensive abilities anyway so dps is where bruisers always were. If anything boost bruiser dps.Then soe could actually fix brawler avoidance altogether helping both bruiser and monk. Fix it to where brawlers are immune to strikethrough. Make monk dragon rage to proc as encounter threat and do the same for bruiser's manhandle. These abilities would then be good for st and ae use.Then it could be monk as tank, dps, & utility. Bruiser could be tank and strong dps but lacking the utility that a monk has.

Gilasil

08-14-2009, 02:26 PM

I came back a year and a half ago and, even though SoE refuses to recognise the problem, there seems to have been improvements in that at least most players will admit there's a problem. Of course the downside of that is that, now that it's getting well known that brawlers have issues, it's even harder to get invites into raids. Harder to bluff your way in.Now that my bruiser has his mythical, 200 AAs, is pretty much mastered out, and has gear of T2-T4 I can tank tough group content and some raid mobs (this will come to an end with the expansion of course). When I can get someone to let me do it. Which only happens when no plate tank is available. People will usually take a brand new level 80 plate tank (any class) in mastercrafted over a fully decked out brawler. You can't blame players much, because if you compare an equally geared brawler and plate tank there is no comparison.It's already been said why brawlers usually pass themselves off as DPS when they really aren't. It's easier to pass yourself off as a DPS class, especially in a raid. Just hope that nobody is running a parse.The fact that this problem has gone on so long and the fact that SoE has never given a clear acknowledgement that there are problems indicates to me that they'll probably never fix it. I don't know if it's because they can't; because they don't want to spend the time; or because fixed up brawler classes would encroach on some dev's favorite class. In any event I don't think they're going to do anything but cosmetic tweaks.It's really in the players' court. People playing brawlers have to decide if they want to continue to play the game knowing they're the least desired of any class. Or they can reroll. I don't see any alternatives.As for me; I'm looking for another game. Once I find one I really like I'm outta here.

Aull

08-14-2009, 03:26 PM

To much time has been wasted already for brawlers fixes. So I rolled a swashy to go with my zerker. Much easier to get groups with these toons than my brawler.

Blu

08-14-2009, 08:37 PM

Like some of you, I left for a while and came back to find brawlers still underpowered, much to my disappointment. It particularly sucks to be a brawler just starting to collect shards for shard armor. It's very frustrating to be LFG for hours, and then when you ask to join a group, they say (for any role) "we've already got a brawler", (for dps) "we don't need a fighter"/"we need a dps class", (for tank) "we need a plate tank", (for tank) "do you have your myth?" (expecting raid-acquired item for a freaking group!), etc. etc. Then the feeling of being dead weight when someone flashes a parse or the healer can't keep you alive (even if it's only b/c they are undergeared too). SOE has really dropped the ball, and kicked it around the floor for years. It's simply inexcusable.I will say that if you manage to grin and bear it for a while and get into some t2/3/4 shard armor, dps/tanking is finally respectable enough to get into groups/raids w/o feeling like you're not carrying your weight. It's still not as good as it should be, but at least respectable.I agree that our role should be tied directly to our stance. The t4 armor set bonus does this to a mild degree. If you're in Offensive, you get +8 mc, and in defensive you get +6% riposte chance, balanced is some of both. It's just a shame they didn't think of this 4 years sooner and that it requires fabled armor to get even a mild glimpse of what we should already have on our stances by default...If I chided them night and day until the next expansion came out about neglecting brawlers, it wouldn't be enough to compete with the years of crap they've thrown our way. But since they are supposedly working on something for next expansion, I'll let it rest for now and see what they come up with.Heck I'm even afraid that if they do "fix" brawlers then there'll be so many brawlers taken off the shelf that we'll be in the same boat of having a hard time finding groups just because there will be so many of us. But at least in that circumstance, I wouldn't be the class that the group settled for.

Kordran

08-14-2009, 08:50 PM

<cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>So - Are they reworking Strike - Through as well? Or can we tank almost anything except --------> these (everything) <--------- mobs?</blockquote>I doubt that you're going to see the strike-through mechanic go away; it was added for the high avoidance rates that plate tanks can achieve these days. Basically, I think Atan is right: it seems the direction they're going is for Brawlers to have more of a utility role, rather than a tanking role. I guess a simplistic way to put it would be that as Bards are to Scouts, Brawlers will be to Fighters.

circusgirl

08-14-2009, 10:44 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>So - Are they reworking Strike - Through as well? Or can we tank almost anything except --------> these (everything) <--------- mobs?</blockquote>I doubt that you're going to see the strike-through mechanic go away; it was added for the high avoidance rates that plate tanks can achieve these days. Basically, I think Atan is right: it seems the direction they're going is for Brawlers to have more of a utility role, rather than a tanking role. I guess a simplistic way to put it would be that as Bards are to Scouts, Brawlers will be to Fighters.</blockquote>Exactly what evidence suggests that they're pushing us towards utility? We have what exactly: a raid buff (recently nerfed, while other tanks were all given one as well), no group buff (while plate tanks were given one), and an avoidance buff (which the plate tanks get as well). The idea that we're utility is nonsense.On the other hand, recently they've given us chain mitigation, another tsunami, more snaps, terrible dps options, more deflection chance, etc. Basically everything they've given us of late has been tanking tools. Unfortunately, the +mitigation increase stat that's being handed out like candy to plate tanks far trumps anything we've been given, which more or less makes our tanking increases useless in comparison, but I think its pretty clear that the evidence suggests that the devs are thinking of us as tanks. It's just that for every one step we take forward plate tanks take two.

Aull

08-14-2009, 11:02 PM

Next expac plate fighters get no increases to any tanking and dps abilities. Next expac brawlers get increases to any tanking and dps abilities. If that could happen maybe brawlers could be only one step behind.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Paperninja

08-15-2009, 02:52 AM

At least most people put the Bruiser/Monk arguments down and focused on the overall issue of being neglected. What can we do to this fix this?I'm going to keep this thread alive until I see some official sony response. Even if it is just from an admin. So instead of just bumping which would probably get me banned, I'm going to throw out my monk moments. I encourage you guys to join in the fun.Tonight in guild -Me - "Hey, if any of you guys have a "If I could do this over knowing.... " moment please don't be shy. It's been a while since I've played and could use all the help I can get.Guild Member - "Scratch your monk and reroll. That's not a joke."I can do is say, "wow".

Kordran

08-15-2009, 03:18 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Exactly what evidence suggests that they're pushing us towards utility?</blockquote>Nothing set in stone, just third-hand comments I've heard from people who were at Fan Faire. I won't get into a back and forth over what they should or shouldn't be doing for you guys, I don't play a Brawler so my only experience is playing with them, not as one. I wish you the best of luck with the next expansion.

circusgirl

08-16-2009, 03:30 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Exactly what evidence suggests that they're pushing us towards utility?</blockquote>Nothing set in stone, just third-hand comments I've heard from people who were at Fan Faire. I won't get into a back and forth over what they should or shouldn't be doing for you guys, I don't play a Brawler so my only experience is playing with them, not as one. I wish you the best of luck with the next expansion.</blockquote>The extent of what I have heard from the brawlers who were present at fan faire was that they planned on making sure that the brawler avoidance buff was the best of all tanks'. Yes, this buff is pretty powerful, but avoidance lend alone does not a utility make. Battle Cry is an awesome buff...but that doesn't mean people would take dirges if they didn't have fortissimo, dKTM, hyran's, resist songs, crypt, etc.And on the flipside, the greatest "utility" roll we had in RoK (peel/tsunami combo) has been killed by the rampant target lock immunities on everything and its mother. And despite pushing us towards a tanking roll (which I support fully), the deflection chance they've given us available less often than shield effectiveness (which does the same thing), and the % riposte chance they occassionally toss on set bonuses is wholly inferior to the +mitigation increase that is passed out on practically everything plate...in short, while we've made definite gains in tanking, we're comparatively worse off.

Gilasil

08-16-2009, 08:32 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Exactly what evidence suggests that they're pushing us towards utility? We have what exactly: a raid buff (recently nerfed, while other tanks were all given one as well), no group buff (while plate tanks were given one), and an avoidance buff (which the plate tanks get as well). The idea that we're utility is nonsense.On the other hand, recently they've given us chain mitigation, another tsunami, more snaps, terrible dps options, more deflection chance, etc. Basically everything they've given us of late has been tanking tools. Unfortunately, the +mitigation increase stat that's being handed out like candy to plate tanks far trumps anything we've been given, which more or less makes our tanking increases useless in comparison, but I think its pretty clear that the evidence suggests that the devs are thinking of us as tanks. It's just that for every one step we take forward plate tanks take two.</blockquote>The idea we're utility IS nonsense, I think people make that conclusion from the fact that the only thing that came out of fan faire about fixing this issue was they were going to give brawlers that improved avoidance buff. It IS a pretty big stretch from one passive buff to utility class.Also agree that the TSO AA abilities seem to revolve around tanking as well as the brawler specific shard armor. So at least at the time they were putting together TSO it looked like they were still thinking of brawlers as tanks. Of course, if they'd actually tried to TANK with a brawler on a raid they'd have found out how tankworthy brawlers are.It's like (probable) that SoE doesn't know what to do with brawlers (and doesn't spend a lot of time trying to figure it out). Most likely they gave them those tanking abilities in TSO without any deep thought."What do we do with brawlers?""They're fighters aren't they? Give them some tanking abilities.""Ok, done. Now lets work on classes we care about."

BChizzle

08-16-2009, 09:23 PM

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Exactly what evidence suggests that they're pushing us towards utility? We have what exactly: a raid buff (recently nerfed, while other tanks were all given one as well), no group buff (while plate tanks were given one), and an avoidance buff (which the plate tanks get as well). The idea that we're utility is nonsense.On the other hand, recently they've given us chain mitigation, another tsunami, more snaps, terrible dps options, more deflection chance, etc. Basically everything they've given us of late has been tanking tools. Unfortunately, the +mitigation increase stat that's being handed out like candy to plate tanks far trumps anything we've been given, which more or less makes our tanking increases useless in comparison, but I think its pretty clear that the evidence suggests that the devs are thinking of us as tanks. It's just that for every one step we take forward plate tanks take two.</blockquote>The idea we're utility IS nonsense, I think people make that conclusion from the fact that the only thing that came out of fan faire about fixing this issue was they were going to give brawlers that improved avoidance buff. It IS a pretty big stretch from one passive buff to utility class.Also agree that the TSO AA abilities seem to revolve around tanking as well as the brawler specific shard armor. So at least at the time they were putting together TSO it looked like they were still thinking of brawlers as tanks. Of course, if they'd actually tried to TANK with a brawler on a raid they'd have found out how tankworthy brawlers are.It's like (probable) that SoE doesn't know what to do with brawlers (and doesn't spend a lot of time trying to figure it out). Most likely they gave them those tanking abilities in TSO without any deep thought."What do we do with brawlers?""They're fighters aren't they? Give them some tanking abilities.""Ok, done. Now lets work on classes we care about."</blockquote>Brawlers tank fine on raids.

Lilvoice

08-16-2009, 09:41 PM

dude give it up brawlers have issue big time why do you think there are so many complaining quit trying to act like your gods gift to the brawler world. akashut your mouth your hurting more then you are helping the brawler class

BChizzle

08-16-2009, 10:03 PM

<cite>Lilvoice@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>dude give it up brawlers have issue big time why do you think there are so many complaining quit trying to act like your gods gift to the brawler world. akashut your mouth your hurting more then you are helping the brawler class</blockquote>The constant overexaggeration on brawlers inability to tank hurts them waaaaaay more then me pointing out the reality that brawlers tank fine in raids. As far as shutting up goes why should I this is a discussion forum if you don't want to read other peoples opinions I suggest you go elsewhere.

Siatfallen

08-18-2009, 12:34 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lilvoice@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>dude give it up brawlers have issue big time why do you think there are so many complaining quit trying to act like your gods gift to the brawler world. akashut your mouth your hurting more then you are helping the brawler class</blockquote>The constant overexaggeration on brawlers inability to tank hurts them waaaaaay more then me pointing out the reality that brawlers tank fine in raids. As far as shutting up goes why should I this is a discussion forum if you don't want to read other peoples opinions I suggest you go elsewhere.</blockquote>Exaggeration or no, you've posed arguments such as brawlers being only filler in raids yourself earlier this year - the kind of toon you keep because you kind of need that fourth fighter for Zarakon anyway being your specific argument that I can remember.Now, I appreciate that you've gotten your hands on gear that sufficiently trivialises the current content to the point where you can compete now, but that was not your point of view back then. I loathe the idea of having to go back and find the posts (we're talking you and Couching going at it and, no offense, but it gets rather long to go through at times <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) - but if you'd like I'll certainly do it.You're good at playing your class, that's perfectly fine - but that doesn't balance the class.Anyway: Back to trolling forums for a game I don't really play anymore again. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

BChizzle

08-18-2009, 12:48 PM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Exaggeration or no, you've posed arguments such as brawlers being only filler in raids yourself earlier this year - the kind of toon you keep because you kind of need that fourth fighter for Zarakon anyway being your specific argument that I can remember.Now, I appreciate that you've gotten your hands on gear that sufficiently trivialises the current content to the point where you can compete now, but that was not your point of view back then. I loathe the idea of having to go back and find the posts (we're talking you and Couching going at it and, no offense, but it gets rather long to go through at times <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> ) - but if you'd like I'll certainly do it.You're good at playing your class, that's perfectly fine - but that doesn't balance the class.Anyway: Back to trolling forums for a game I don't really play anymore again. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Go back if you like, my stance has been pretty much the same since beta, we need more ae agro tools and spike management. It doesn't mean a brawler can't tank. Things change, IE the proc debuff really brought fighter dps in line, deflection chance on items, fixing wepaon delays etc, but here we are almost 12 months later from BETA and brawlers are still hurting in the same areas ae agro and spike damage. Sad part is the fighter fix would have been great for us in the exact areas needed and it never went through.

Aull

08-18-2009, 02:17 PM

What ever happens lets not turn this into XX vs YY arguements please.I will say that yes brawlers can tank raids but only the brawlers blessed enough to be in guilds that are still allowing brawlers on raids to get the gear needed to tank.Plate tanks in equal gear will still take damage much better than and equally geared brawler.I will agree with BChizzle that aoe aggro needs to be boosted and so does managing spike damage. Brawlers have some nice abilities that are now worthless do to raid mobs strikethrough and those issues could be fixed as well.All in all brawlers do not need a massive overhaul. Just some minor tweaks that could be done right now and not six months later.My biggest request right now would be for SOE to change monk's dragonrage and bruiser's manhandle into encounter abilities. It would be a move in the right direction for these two brawlers and it would be assisting both the non-raiding and raiding players alike.I would also like to see monks raid wide beefed back up to where it was before it was nerfed. It was never OP'ed then.Oh well I am beginning to repeat myself. Later.

BChizzle

08-18-2009, 02:39 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will say that yes brawlers can tank raids but only the brawlers blessed enough to be in guilds that are still allowing brawlers on raids to get the gear needed to tank.Plate tanks in equal gear will still take damage much better than and equally geared brawler.</blockquote>Couple of things, first thing, is most raid guilds do have a brawler, second the actual damage taken by a brawler vs a plate tank isn't that huge of a divide, for example your average raid geared brawler is going to be around 7k mit 90% avoid when tanking, a high end brawler probably 10k mit 92% avoid. Those are very comparable to plate tanks in similar gear. On top of that, I normally tank the early progression mobs/trash in this expansion in full dps gear in offensive stance so saying a defensively specced brawler with T2-3 gear can't do it is completely untrue. Sure at some point you hit a wall where you need gear upgraded but that is the case for all tanks.

Aull

08-18-2009, 04:11 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will say that yes brawlers can tank raids but only the brawlers blessed enough to be in guilds that are still allowing brawlers on raids to get the gear needed to tank.Plate tanks in equal gear will still take damage much better than and equally geared brawler.</blockquote>Couple of things, first thing, is most raid guilds do have a brawler, second the actual damage taken by a brawler vs a plate tank isn't that huge of a divide, for example your average raid geared brawler is going to be around 7k mit 90% avoid when tanking, a high end brawler probably 10k mit 92% avoid. Those are very comparable to plate tanks in similar gear. On top of that, I normally tank the early progression mobs/trash in this expansion in full dps gear in offensive stance so saying a defensively specced brawler with T2-3 gear can't do it is completely untrue. Sure at some point you hit a wall where you need gear upgraded but that is the case for all tanks.</blockquote>I have a question. Is that average raid geared brawler of 90% avoidance truely 90% when fighting mobs three and four lvls above the tanking brawlers level? I am not sure that it would be. Thanks.

BChizzle

08-18-2009, 05:00 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will say that yes brawlers can tank raids but only the brawlers blessed enough to be in guilds that are still allowing brawlers on raids to get the gear needed to tank.Plate tanks in equal gear will still take damage much better than and equally geared brawler.</blockquote>Couple of things, first thing, is most raid guilds do have a brawler, second the actual damage taken by a brawler vs a plate tank isn't that huge of a divide, for example your average raid geared brawler is going to be around 7k mit 90% avoid when tanking, a high end brawler probably 10k mit 92% avoid. Those are very comparable to plate tanks in similar gear. On top of that, I normally tank the early progression mobs/trash in this expansion in full dps gear in offensive stance so saying a defensively specced brawler with T2-3 gear can't do it is completely untrue. Sure at some point you hit a wall where you need gear upgraded but that is the case for all tanks.</blockquote>I have a question. Is that average raid geared brawler of 90% avoidance truely 90% when fighting mobs three and four lvls above the tanking brawlers level? I am not sure that it would be. Thanks.</blockquote>Of course not, but a plate tank isn't avoiding what their avoidance displays at either its all relative. Fact is a raid buffed brawler will avoid anywhere from 10-15% more hits then a plate tank.

Gungo

08-18-2009, 06:40 PM

Gungo

08-18-2009, 06:48 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will say that yes brawlers can tank raids but only the brawlers blessed enough to be in guilds that are still allowing brawlers on raids to get the gear needed to tank.Plate tanks in equal gear will still take damage much better than and equally geared brawler.</blockquote>Couple of things, first thing, is most raid guilds do have a brawler, second the actual damage taken by a brawler vs a plate tank isn't that huge of a divide, for example your average raid geared brawler is going to be around 7k mit 90% avoid when tanking, a high end brawler probably 10k mit 92% avoid. Those are very comparable to plate tanks in similar gear. On top of that, I normally tank the early progression mobs/trash in this expansion in full dps gear in offensive stance so saying a defensively specced brawler with T2-3 gear can't do it is completely untrue. Sure at some point you hit a wall where you need gear upgraded but that is the case for all tanks.</blockquote>Not sure if you noticed but there is a growing trend of high end guilds not using brawlers anymore. There really is no real need for brawlers in raid guilds at present. And while I think this expansion has made brawlers better tanks at taking hits. I think agro and avoidance abilites took a hit.

BChizzle

08-18-2009, 07:06 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure if you noticed but there is a growing trend of high end guilds not using brawlers anymore. There really is no real need for brawlers in raid guilds at present. And while I think this expansion has made brawlers better tanks at taking hits. I think agro and avoidance abilites took a hit.</blockquote>We must be playing a different game, last I checked most avatar killing guilds roll with a brawler. Just thinking top 16 off the top of my head that I can check on players 13 out of the 16 have brawlers.NPU Brawler - checkDefiance Brawler - checkStrike Brawler - nopeElysium Brawler - checkExordium Brawler - CheckConfirmed Brawler - nopeTyranny Brawler - CheckSaints Brawler - nopeDracos Brawler - CheckDarknessfalls Brawler - CheckAbsolution Brawler - CheckBloodthorn Brawler - CheckValidus Brawler - CheckOsanpo Brawler - CheckHallowed Wrath Brawler - CheckSanctuna Brawler - Check

Couching

08-18-2009, 08:44 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure if you noticed but there is a growing trend of high end guilds not using brawlers anymore. There really is no real need for brawlers in raid guilds at present. And while I think this expansion has made brawlers better tanks at taking hits. I think agro and avoidance abilites took a hit.</blockquote>We must be playing a different game, last I checked most avatar killing guilds roll with a brawler. Just thinking top 16 off the top of my head that I can check on players 13 out of the 16 have brawlers.NPU Brawler - checkDefiance Brawler - checkStrike Brawler - nopeElysium Brawler - checkExordium Brawler - CheckConfirmed Brawler - nopeTyranny Brawler - CheckSaints Brawler - nopeDracos Brawler - Check it's altDarknessfalls Brawler - Check it's altAbsolution Brawler - Check; the rank of brawler is lower than member.Bloodthorn Brawler - CheckValidus Brawler - CheckOsanpo Brawler - CheckHallowed Wrath Brawler - Check it's altSanctuna Brawler - Check</blockquote>Most guilds listed without brawlers had brawlers in RoK.

Gilasil

08-19-2009, 01:58 AM

Brawlers can tank raids?Ok, maybe in the absolute best gear available or against trash. I can't vouch for the absolute best geared brawlers on the server as I am not one and don't know any.But I've seen the results of brawlers trying to tank.Lots of wipes. Even with a brawler (I'm thinking of a monk in this case) equipped better then most in our raiding group.Last time we tried it, because no plate tanks showed, we took our monk and had him tank. Worked fine in hate trash although we made no attempt at any named. Then we went to PR and did fine up to the final mob.After wiping 5 times on that mob a guardian in so-so gear came on, and we got the mob on the next pull. The monk was mythicalled wearing T2 shard armor (the tanking set of course). The guardian I think had epic and pretty so-so armor (not as good as T2 definately). In fact that particular guardian had such crappy gear that he had been pretty much banned from tanking raids until he got his gear upgraded (except when the group was desperate). But he could out tank that mythicalled monk. PR isn't exactly high end raiding.A plate tank comparably equipped to that monk would have had no problem at all. Other times we've done that and much tougher mobs with comparably equipped plate tanks went far smoother.So yea, technically, we showed that a brawler CAN tank raids. But I wouldn't exactly call it uber tanking. (yes the monk was wearing tanking gear, yes the monk was in defensive, yes I had my avoidance on that monk, etc. etc.) I can tank raids too. Pretty much any mob -- for 10 seconds until the clicky on my mythical runs out (I get about another 10 seconds from my end line AA ability if the mob doesn't have strikethrough). I might be able to go farther with really good healing. But I don't think that qualifies me to say I can tank raids. (That DOES have it's use though, just doesn't qualify me to say I can truly tank raids).If you don't believe me there, you might look around and see how many raid guilds have brawlers as their MT. Ask a high end raiding guild if they have a brawler as their MT. It might be good for a laugh anyway. And yes, many high end guilds will have a monk for their raidwide haste or other roles but that doesn't mean they're there to be MT. In our raiding group, me or that monk often act as MA, but you don't need to be a tank to do that. Our raiding alliance has, at times, used all of the plate classes for MT. We only used a brawler once for an entire session and it was in pure desperation. We are by no stretch of the imagination high end.So maybe all that changes if the brawler is wearing the best gear available. Unfortunately most players do not have the best gear available. Or looking at it another way, a brawler CAN do some acceptable tanking as long as it's geared better then a comparable plate tank for a given quality of tanking.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 06:05 AM

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers can tank raids?Ok, maybe in the absolute best gear available or against trash. I can't vouch for the absolute best geared brawlers on the server as I am not one and don't know any.But I've seen the results of brawlers trying to tank.Lots of wipes. Even with a brawler (I'm thinking of a monk in this case) equipped better then most in our raiding group.Last time we tried it, because no plate tanks showed, we took our monk and had him tank. Worked fine in hate trash although we made no attempt at any named. Then we went to PR and did fine up to the final mob.After wiping 5 times on that mob a guardian in so-so gear came on, and we got the mob on the next pull. The monk was mythicalled wearing T2 shard armor (the tanking set of course). The guardian I think had epic and pretty so-so armor (not as good as T2 definately). In fact that particular guardian had such crappy gear that he had been pretty much banned from tanking raids until he got his gear upgraded (except when the group was desperate). But he could out tank that mythicalled monk. PR isn't exactly high end raiding.A plate tank comparably equipped to that monk would have had no problem at all. Other times we've done that and much tougher mobs with comparably equipped plate tanks went far smoother.So yea, technically, we showed that a brawler CAN tank raids. But I wouldn't exactly call it uber tanking. (yes the monk was wearing tanking gear, yes the monk was in defensive, yes I had my avoidance on that monk, etc. etc.) I can tank raids too. Pretty much any mob -- for 10 seconds until the clicky on my mythical runs out (I get about another 10 seconds from my end line AA ability if the mob doesn't have strikethrough). I might be able to go farther with really good healing. But I don't think that qualifies me to say I can tank raids. (That DOES have it's use though, just doesn't qualify me to say I can truly tank raids).If you don't believe me there, you might look around and see how many raid guilds have brawlers as their MT. Ask a high end raiding guild if they have a brawler as their MT. It might be good for a laugh anyway. And yes, many high end guilds will have a monk for their raidwide haste or other roles but that doesn't mean they're there to be MT. In our raiding group, me or that monk often act as MA, but you don't need to be a tank to do that. Our raiding alliance has, at times, used all of the plate classes for MT. We only used a brawler once for an entire session and it was in pure desperation. We are by no stretch of the imagination high end.So maybe all that changes if the brawler is wearing the best gear available. Unfortunately most players do not have the best gear available. Or looking at it another way, a brawler CAN do some acceptable tanking as long as it's geared better then a comparable plate tank for a given quality of tanking.</blockquote>That is a problem with your healers or your brawler, PR is completely easy to tank. I have already posted videos of me tanking avatars and spiking less then plate tanks and I wasn't fully in defensive gear when I did it. Using the excuse brawlers aren't MT's is silly because we all know the MT role has traditionally always been the guard, however, any tank can tank in this expansion. The problem isn't taking damage its agro generation.

circusgirl

08-19-2009, 11:36 AM

Blanka has a high tendency to start with a blanket statement that is misleading, such as "Brawlers tank just fine" and then retreat very slowly to a position that is accurate, such as "Brawlers get spiked out too easily and have issues with aggro generation."It isn't the overall incoming damage on brawlers that is a problem. It is that we take damage in huge chunks, not in a slow, steady, easily healed manner. This means that on raid mobs, even with 100% critmit, we are more likely to die even if we are taking less total damage. In addition, brawler avoidance is still very much limited by hitting hard caps on our deflection, while plate tanks are able to ignore the mitigation curve using +mitigation increase gear. Brawler special abilities tend to fall into two categories--defensively speaking we have tsunami type 100% avoidance abilities, and aggro generation wise we have target locks. TSO has, in large part, negated both of these types of abilities by allowing our avoidance to be struck through and making target locks simply not work on anything but the weakest of trash mobs. At the same time, we have gained very little in terms of mitigation, while shield effectiveness is absolutely everywhere and is actually MORE common than the brawler equivalent of deflection chance. Long story short, plate tanks are seeing big gains in both mitigation and avoidance, while brawlers only gained in avoidance and there remain mostly at the cap. Mechanics that were added in to reign in plate tank avoidance hurt us disproportionately and were an inappropriate way of fixing the issue. Mechanics that were added in to help fix coercer/dirges being overpowered (target lock immunities) again hurt us disproportionately.To make matters worse, and the single greatest issue for us, is that brawlers have actually LOST aggro generation ability this expansion. We cannot gain aggro quickly and efficiently on the main mob anymore as peel no longer works, and as monks at least are wholly single-target oriented, we make terrible offtanks in an expansion where offtanking primarily consists of wrangling a huge number of adds.CAN an already avatar geared monk like Blanka tank Avatars? Sure. But not as well as an equivalently geared plate tank, and with a lot more limitations on what he can do. We *can* do it...but there's not a serious raid guild out there who would pick us to do it as their first, second, third, or fourth choice for the job.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 12:36 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blanka has a high tendency to start with a blanket statement that is misleading, such as "Brawlers tank just fine" and then retreat very slowly to a position that is accurate, such as "Brawlers get spiked out too easily and have issues with aggro generation."It isn't the overall incoming damage on brawlers that is a problem. It is that we take damage in huge chunks, not in a slow, steady, easily healed manner. This means that on raid mobs, even with 100% critmit, we are more likely to die even if we are taking less total damage. In addition, brawler avoidance is still very much limited by hitting hard caps on our deflection, while plate tanks are able to ignore the mitigation curve using +mitigation increase gear. Brawler special abilities tend to fall into two categories--defensively speaking we have tsunami type 100% avoidance abilities, and aggro generation wise we have target locks. TSO has, in large part, negated both of these types of abilities by allowing our avoidance to be struck through and making target locks simply not work on anything but the weakest of trash mobs. At the same time, we have gained very little in terms of mitigation, while shield effectiveness is absolutely everywhere and is actually MORE common than the brawler equivalent of deflection chance. Long story short, plate tanks are seeing big gains in both mitigation and avoidance, while brawlers only gained in avoidance and there remain mostly at the cap. Mechanics that were added in to reign in plate tank avoidance hurt us disproportionately and were an inappropriate way of fixing the issue. Mechanics that were added in to help fix coercer/dirges being overpowered (target lock immunities) again hurt us disproportionately.To make matters worse, and the single greatest issue for us, is that brawlers have actually LOST aggro generation ability this expansion. We cannot gain aggro quickly and efficiently on the main mob anymore as peel no longer works, and as monks at least are wholly single-target oriented, we make terrible offtanks in an expansion where offtanking primarily consists of wrangling a huge number of adds.CAN an already avatar geared monk like Blanka tank Avatars? Sure. But not as well as an equivalently geared plate tank, and with a lot more limitations on what he can do. We *can* do it...but there's not a serious raid guild out there who would pick us to do it as their first, second, third, or fourth choice for the job.</blockquote>Hmm lets see I'll refute you point by point.Brawlers are at 8-10k mit in raid please tell me exactly how that isn't a gain in mitigation? Our mit has DOUBLED from RoK. And please don't try the high end gear BS either I can replace my raid gear with T3 gear and lose maybe 200-300 mit or so. 1 SoH mit jewel can make up that difference. If anything more then any other expansion we are closer to plate tanks in mit then ever. Please have your guild raid buff you 'correctly' have you MT something then come back, it will open your eyes. You give the excuse monks saves are avoidance related while 2 are actually mit boosts one a huge magic ward one double stoneskins. I know you never raided before this expansion but we were improved so drastically by the addition of deflection chance and the narrowing of the mit difference you would have to be dumb not to see it. Try tanking Vinka if your guild will let you, I will bet 1000 plat on perma that you tank whatever mob they need you to do fine and you come back here and change your tune.Shield effectiveness, you used it being an excuse yet in the same paragraph complained about capping deflection, why would we need more deflection chance if our deflection is capped how is this a relavant point?Oh and another thing when I tanked flame and showed you that video I was wearing the avatar ward ring and 2 charms, thats hardly being all avatar geared out, you are saying 3 items total make monks go from broken to good?Our sk is 10k mit usually raid buffed with 70% avoidance, I hardly see how on one hand people can say SK's are such great at taking damage when we have the same mit but 20% more avoidance can you?Now for single target agro generation. If I am OT in raid and have hate buffs I can't even use my CA's without grabbing agro, I pretty much have to ride the line around 90% agro on tanks that do a significant amount more dps then the tanks you see in your raid. I don't need a target lock, I am sorry but as long as you are high enough on the agro list any positional will get you agro whenever you need it and if not hit a second one we have 4. I can agree monks suck for ae agro but I think everyone agrees with that.In the end throwing your arms up in the air and crying brawlers are broken and need massive fixes is just complete rubbish, they could use some slight tweaks but they are absolutely capable of tanking w/e is needed, I have 2 brawlers on my server I know for certain who aren't in avatar guilds who tank instanced content so if they can do it so can you.

Bruener

08-19-2009, 01:05 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blanka has a high tendency to start with a blanket statement that is misleading, such as "Brawlers tank just fine" and then retreat very slowly to a position that is accurate, such as "Brawlers get spiked out too easily and have issues with aggro generation."It isn't the overall incoming damage on brawlers that is a problem. It is that we take damage in huge chunks, not in a slow, steady, easily healed manner. This means that on raid mobs, even with 100% critmit, we are more likely to die even if we are taking less total damage. In addition, brawler avoidance is still very much limited by hitting hard caps on our deflection, while plate tanks are able to ignore the mitigation curve using +mitigation increase gear. Brawler special abilities tend to fall into two categories--defensively speaking we have tsunami type 100% avoidance abilities, and aggro generation wise we have target locks. TSO has, in large part, negated both of these types of abilities by allowing our avoidance to be struck through and making target locks simply not work on anything but the weakest of trash mobs. At the same time, we have gained very little in terms of mitigation, while shield effectiveness is absolutely everywhere and is actually MORE common than the brawler equivalent of deflection chance. Long story short, plate tanks are seeing big gains in both mitigation and avoidance, while brawlers only gained in avoidance and there remain mostly at the cap. Mechanics that were added in to reign in plate tank avoidance hurt us disproportionately and were an inappropriate way of fixing the issue. Mechanics that were added in to help fix coercer/dirges being overpowered (target lock immunities) again hurt us disproportionately.To make matters worse, and the single greatest issue for us, is that brawlers have actually LOST aggro generation ability this expansion. We cannot gain aggro quickly and efficiently on the main mob anymore as peel no longer works, and as monks at least are wholly single-target oriented, we make terrible offtanks in an expansion where offtanking primarily consists of wrangling a huge number of adds.CAN an already avatar geared monk like Blanka tank Avatars? Sure. But not as well as an equivalently geared plate tank, and with a lot more limitations on what he can do. We *can* do it...but there's not a serious raid guild out there who would pick us to do it as their first, second, third, or fourth choice for the job.</blockquote>Hmm lets see I'll refute you point by point.Brawlers are at 8-10k mit in raid please tell me exactly how that isn't a gain in mitigation? Our mit has DOUBLED from RoK. And please don't try the high end gear BS either I can replace my raid gear with T3 gear and lose maybe 200-300 mit or so. 1 SoH mit jewel can make up that difference. If anything more then any other expansion we are closer to plate tanks in mit then ever. Please have your guild raid buff you 'correctly' have you MT something then come back, it will open your eyes. You give the excuse monks saves are avoidance related while 2 are actually mit boosts one a huge magic ward one double stoneskins. I know you never raided before this expansion but we were improved so drastically by the addition of deflection chance and the narrowing of the mit difference you would have to be dumb not to see it. Try tanking Vinka if your guild will let you, I will bet 1000 plat on perma that you tank whatever mob they need you to do fine and you come back here and change your tune.Shield effectiveness, you used it being an excuse yet in the same paragraph complained about capping deflection, why would we need more deflection chance if our deflection is capped how is this a relavant point?Oh and another thing when I tanked flame and showed you that video I was wearing the avatar ward ring and 2 charms, thats hardly being all avatar geared out, you are saying 3 items total make monks go from broken to good?Our sk is 10k mit usually raid buffed with 70% avoidance, I hardly see how on one hand people can say SK's are such great at taking damage when we have the same mit but 20% more avoidance can you?Now for single target agro generation. If I am OT in raid and have hate buffs I can't even use my CA's without grabbing agro, I pretty much have to ride the line around 90% agro on tanks that do a significant amount more dps then the tanks you see in your raid. I don't need a target lock, I am sorry but as long as you are high enough on the agro list any positional will get you agro whenever you need it and if not hit a second one we have 4. I can agree monks suck for ae agro but I think everyone agrees with that.In the end throwing your arms up in the air and crying brawlers are broken and need massive fixes is just complete rubbish, they could use some slight tweaks but they are absolutely capable of tanking w/e is needed, I have 2 brawlers on my server I know for certain who aren't in avatar guilds who tank instanced content so if they can do it so can you.</blockquote>Hhhhmmm, startin to make me a believer. The question is where is the gap between what shape brawlers really are in and what their perceived shape is. I mean, maybe it is the fact that a lot, and I mean a lot of people rolled up Brawlers not really thinking they would do much tanking...which does seem silly.I know with diminishing returns I really don't even look at my mit anymore, and with the tweaks that Brawlers saw with TSO their mit % is pretty close to Plate tanks when buffs are settled in. Avoidance, a brawler is still going to avoid more than the Plate tanks, although like Mit that gap is getting smaller moving into diminishing returns.Intesting posts Bchizzle. Some people posting about Brawlers try to draw so much doom and gloom and put themselves in the worst possible scenario....its a lot like what a few of the Guards around these boards like to do...when things aren't nearly as bad as they make it out to be.

Gungo

08-19-2009, 01:11 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure if you noticed but there is a growing trend of high end guilds not using brawlers anymore. There really is no real need for brawlers in raid guilds at present. And while I think this expansion has made brawlers better tanks at taking hits. I think agro and avoidance abilites took a hit.</blockquote>We must be playing a different game, last I checked most avatar killing guilds roll with a brawler. Just thinking top 16 off the top of my head that I can check on players 13 out of the 16 have brawlers.NPU Brawler - checkDefiance Brawler - checkStrike Brawler - nopeElysium Brawler - checkExordium Brawler - CheckConfirmed Brawler - nopeTyranny Brawler - CheckSaints Brawler - nopeDracos Brawler - Check it's altDarknessfalls Brawler - Check it's altAbsolution Brawler - Check; the rank of brawler is lower than member.Bloodthorn Brawler - CheckValidus Brawler - CheckOsanpo Brawler - CheckHallowed Wrath Brawler - Check it's altSanctuna Brawler - Check</blockquote>Most guilds listed without brawlers had brawlers in RoK.</blockquote>As always Bchizzle/blanka your wrong again. As couching has said those nopes use to be brawlers and alot of those brawlers are ALTS in those guilds. Nearly half the list you posted either dont have a brawler or is an alt. You might want to try again, because really all you did was prove yourself wrong.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 03:22 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>As always Bchizzle/blanka your wrong again. As couching has said those nopes use to be brawlers and alot of those brawlers are ALTS in those guilds. Nearly half the list you posted either dont have a brawler or is an alt. You might want to try again, because really all you did was prove yourself wrong.</blockquote>Sorry I speak English, this is an English forum, if you want to communicate please try using the language required here. And sorry but most of those guilds I listed actually use brawlers for raids including your own guild which has 2 brawlers though you don't really get to raid much now do you? Matter of fact you can probably name just as many end game raiding brawlers as you can list endgame raiding palys, couching has no leg to stand on which isn't surprising but you wouldn't notice that being a hopalong as well.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 03:31 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hhhhmmm, startin to make me a believer. The question is where is the gap between what shape brawlers really are in and what their perceived shape is. I mean, maybe it is the fact that a lot, and I mean a lot of people rolled up Brawlers not really thinking they would do much tanking...which does seem silly.I know with diminishing returns I really don't even look at my mit anymore, and with the tweaks that Brawlers saw with TSO their mit % is pretty close to Plate tanks when buffs are settled in. Avoidance, a brawler is still going to avoid more than the Plate tanks, although like Mit that gap is getting smaller moving into diminishing returns.Intesting posts Bchizzle. Some people posting about Brawlers try to draw so much doom and gloom and put themselves in the worst possible scenario....its a lot like what a few of the Guards around these boards like to do...when things aren't nearly as bad as they make it out to be.</blockquote>I actually really like Vinka and think shes a good player, but I don't know its like monks like her expect to be effective as an MT while sitting in the 3rd group not even an OT role. Get buffed for tanking, gear for tanking and as a monk you can tank whatever needs tanking. Nobody is saying monks couldn't use some boosts but people saying flat out monks can't tank 99.99999999% of the time never took a monk put them in the MT group and asked them to tank. The person who used PR as an example I mean cmon a mage could tank PR the monk was either just completely out of his league or his healers were garbage, it is PR of all things its being 1 grouped with 1 healer by PUG groups.

Lilvoice

08-19-2009, 04:51 PM

your denial is sickening....in fact you personally sicken me

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 04:55 PM

<cite>Lilvoice@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>your denial is sickening....in fact you personally sicken me</blockquote>The fact not a single brawler in your guild of like 5000 isn't even moderately raid geared really brings into question your credibility on knowing whether or not a monk can tank raids effectively. But you are the expert right?

Lilvoice

08-19-2009, 05:01 PM

Paperninja

08-19-2009, 05:01 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lilvoice@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>your denial is sickening....in fact you personally sicken me</blockquote>The fact not a single brawler in your guild of like 5000 isn't even moderately raid geared really brings into question your credibility on knowing whether or not a monk can tank raids effectively. But you are the expert right?</blockquote>You're not helping, in fact, you've never really helped with anything. You are the black guy standing in the equal rights demonstration screaming, "BUT THEY LET US USE THE WHITE WATER FOUNTAIN NOW! ITS COOL GUYS! WE'RE FINE! WE DONT NEED TO VOTE!"Please, let us accomplish something worth-while for the betterment of the class and move your progress stalling over inflated ego out of this thread.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 05:19 PM

<cite>Lilvoice@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lilvoice@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>your denial is sickening....in fact you personally sicken me</blockquote>The fact not a single brawler in your guild of like 5000 isn't even moderately raid geared really brings into question your credibility on knowing whether or not a monk can tank raids effectively. But you are the expert right?</blockquote>Because my bard is my main and this guild/server is my only guild/server amarite? assume more avatar of egotism.</blockquote>The fact I have provided this forum with video of a monk tanking avatars with ease proves my point, the fact you have provided NOTHING but fantasy proves NOTHING. So seriously provide me some facts here, because all I see if you guys crying about stuff you haven't even tried.

Blu

08-19-2009, 05:23 PM

I think a valid point to all this is that it's easier to gear up a brawler as a backup MT than another plate tank (less competition for patterns), yet hardly anyone is doing it. Regardless if it's only poor perception, this perception is shaping reality, and SOE needs to do something to change it.I also believe a lot of the negative perception from other classes and frustration from the brawler side comes from group tanking, where we have aggro problems in most TSO content unless the group is setup just so. It only takes a couple of attempts at tanking TSO, not knowing you absolutely needed hate xfer classes, for you to get frustrated and 5-10 other people coming away with the opinion that brawlers suck at tanking. If that problem were fixed, I think the perception of brawlers as tanks would be boosted a bit.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 05:31 PM

<cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lilvoice@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>your denial is sickening....in fact you personally sicken me</blockquote>The fact not a single brawler in your guild of like 5000 isn't even moderately raid geared really brings into question your credibility on knowing whether or not a monk can tank raids effectively. But you are the expert right?</blockquote>You're not helping, in fact, you've never really helped with anything. You are the black guy standing in the equal rights demonstration screaming, "BUT THEY LET US USE THE WHITE WATER FOUNTAIN NOW! ITS COOL GUYS! WE'RE FINE! WE DONT NEED TO VOTE!"Please, let us accomplish something worth-while for the betterment of the class and move your progress stalling over inflated ego out of this thread.</blockquote>While I find your comparison of monk issues to the serious and real life issue of racial equality rather ignorant I'll play along for the sake of communicating at your level. Your crying is more like the black guy who never goes outside complaining he's not allowed at the front of the bus. Its 2009 much like being able to sit anywhere you like in America monks can also tank. Find me a monk who actually tried to tank things at thier level and failed, they don't exist because as soon as you give that monk a fair chance you will see they can tank just as good as any other tanks. Its like that guy with his PR story, his monk couldn't tank PR of all things but some mastercrafted plate tank did, are you kidding me? You guys need to live in reality, stop talking about how you think things are go out and try them. That means you monks instead of crying ask your raidleader to let you tank some then come back and comment. The raidleader might laugh at you first but eventually when you do get your chance you will realize there isn't this huge massive divide.You guys complain about the wrong things over and over again so the devs don't know what to fix.

Aull

08-19-2009, 05:36 PM

Many players that rock with sk's & paladins tanking will need to refocus and actually play their respective classes with better attention to details if a brawlers is tanking any aoe instance. It is challenging and at the same time can be difficult if a brawler is tanking and most players just want to burn through zones and be done.As we all know burning through aoe content with brawlers will not likely happen. So yes brawlers get a bad wrap as tanks because their aoe control simply is not consistant enough to compete with aoe classes. Hence just gimme an sk or paladin and we are good.I think it boils down to aggro control and not just survivability for brawlers that gives them such a bad image.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 05:40 PM

<cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think a valid point to all this is that it's easier to gear up a brawler as a backup MT than another plate tank (less competition for patterns), yet hardly anyone is doing it. Regardless if it's only poor perception, this perception is shaping reality, and SOE needs to do something to change it.I also believe a lot of the negative perception from other classes and frustration from the brawler side comes from group tanking, where we have aggro problems in most TSO content unless the group is setup just so. It only takes a couple of attempts at tanking TSO, not knowing you absolutely needed hate xfer classes, for you to get frustrated and 5-10 other people coming away with the opinion that brawlers suck at tanking. If that problem were fixed, I think the perception of brawlers as tanks would be boosted a bit.</blockquote>I agree perception is more of the problem then reality. Don't know how many times I have heard "I thought monks sucked until (Blanka, Mephetic, Setsuka, etc) tanked a zone/raid for me." Or even when we get new healers in my guild and they are like "Wow I didn't know brawlers could tank like that."

Couching

08-19-2009, 05:45 PM

Every geared fighter can tank TSO raid targets. I have said it 6 months ago.The issue of brawler tanking is we need more gear than plate tanks to tank same targets. It makes plate tanks preferable raid tank for raid progression. Moreover, brawlers are worst in aoe aggro, it's impossible for brawler to compete OT position with aoe plate tanks. When you only need 2 tanks, MT and OT, for raid progression, brawler is not wanted.When brawler is not wanted for raid progression, most hardcore guilds don't recruit brawler anymore in TSO.We need something to make us wanted in raids.

Paperninja

08-19-2009, 05:45 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lilvoice@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>your denial is sickening....in fact you personally sicken me</blockquote>The fact not a single brawler in your guild of like 5000 isn't even moderately raid geared really brings into question your credibility on knowing whether or not a monk can tank raids effectively. But you are the expert right?</blockquote>You're not helping, in fact, you've never really helped with anything. You are the black guy standing in the equal rights demonstration screaming, "BUT THEY LET US USE THE WHITE WATER FOUNTAIN NOW! ITS COOL GUYS! WE'RE FINE! WE DONT NEED TO VOTE!"Please, let us accomplish something worth-while for the betterment of the class and move your progress stalling over inflated ego out of this thread.</blockquote>While I find your comparison of monk issues to the serious and real life issue of racial equality rather ignorant I'll play along for the sake of communicating at your level. Your crying is more like the black guy who never goes outside complaining he's not allowed at the front of the bus. Its 2009 much like being able to sit anywhere you like in America monks can also tank. Find me a monk who actually tried to tank things at thier level and failed, they don't exist because as soon as you give that monk a fair chance you will see they can tank just as good as any other tanks. Its like that guy with his PR story, his monk couldn't tank PR of all things but some mastercrafted plate tank did, are you kidding me? You guys need to live in reality, stop talking about how you think things are go out and try them. That means you monks instead of crying ask your raidleader to let you tank some then come back and comment. The raidleader might laugh at you first but eventually when you do get your chance you will realize there isn't this huge massive divide.You guys complain about the wrong things over and over again so the devs don't know what to fix.</blockquote>You gotta be kidding me. You know its bad when even the other tanks are saying, "Yeah, you guys are screwed. I hope Sony throws you a bone." The other tank classes are the last to support another class, ever. You know its bad when even the other tanks are hoping you get some help. Right now - It's Everybody vs. BCHIZZEL THE BADDEST MOST BESTEST MONK EVER. Just stop. Nobody cares if your guild let you tank this one time on this one raid. When you strip down the situation to the very bottom line it is this -1) Brawler is the worst tank in the game.2) Brawler is the last choice to tank in the game.3) Brawler does not have a strong desirable utility.4) Brawler is NOT the highest DPS fighter despite being the worst tank.You're stating that Sony doesn't know what to fix because we whine about the wrong things. Yet, if Sony were to listen to you, then we don't need to be fixed at all. We tank end game raid bosses and parse higher than true dps classes. Heck, we should be nerfed.Once again, you're not helping. All you're doing is posting in a thread to inflate your own ego and let everybody know about all the great things you've done. Nobody cares.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 05:46 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Many players that rock with sk's & paladins tanking will need to refocus and actually play their respective classes with better attention to details if a brawlers is tanking any aoe instance. It is challenging and at the same time can be difficult if a brawler is tanking and most players just want to burn through zones and be done.As we all know burning through aoe content with brawlers will not likely happen. So yes brawlers get a bad wrap as tanks because their aoe control simply is not consistant enough to compete with aoe classes. Hence just gimme an sk or paladin and we are good.I think it boils down to aggro control and not just survivability for brawlers that gives them such a bad image.</blockquote>You could say that for any non ae tank, the ae vs single target tanking is horribly balanced right now, sadly that means brawlers and guards are getting shafted a little. The worst part about it is bruisers are supposed to be ae tanks but can't do it that well.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 05:49 PM

<cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>You gotta be kidding me. You know its bad when even the other tanks are saying, "Yeah, you guys are screwed. I hope Sony throws you a bone." The other tank classes are the last to support another class, ever. You know its bad when even the other tanks are hoping you get some help. Right now - It's Everybody vs. BCHIZZEL THE BADDEST MOST BESTEST MONK EVER. Just stop. Nobody cares if your guild let you tank this one time on this one raid. When you strip down the situation to the very bottom line it is this -1) Brawler is the worst tank in the game.2) Brawler is the last choice to tank in the game.3) Brawler does not have a strong desirable utility.4) Brawler is NOT the highest DPS fighter despite being the worst tank.You're stating that Sony doesn't know what to fix because we whine about the wrong things. Yet, if Sony were to listen to you, then we don't need to be fixed at all. We tank end game raid bosses and parse higher than true dps classes. Heck, we should be nerfed.Once again, you're not helping. All you're doing is posting in a thread to inflate your own ego and let everybody know about all the great things you've done. Nobody cares.</blockquote>Where is your proof? I mean seriously how would you know how good a brawler is, you are speaking from a stance as someone who hasn't played one in 4 years, you are the perfect example of what I am talking about, someone screaming when they haven't even tried yet.

Couching

08-19-2009, 05:52 PM

<cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think a valid point to all this is that it's easier to gear up a brawler as a backup MT than another plate tank (less competition for patterns), yet hardly anyone is doing it. Regardless if it's only poor perception, this perception is shaping reality, and SOE needs to do something to change it.</blockquote>There is no pattern competition for plate tanks; different patterns for different fighters.

Paperninja

08-19-2009, 05:57 PM

Your own opinions are just as biased as anybody else's. Take off your raid gear and put on MC. Have your guildies take off their raid ger and put on MC (its extremely important for the healer to do this as well). Now, I want you to attempt TSO instances with that setup. A Shadowknight has no problems tanking in this condition. On the DPS side - there are plenty of parses out there to show where the numbers lie. I shouldn't even have to bring that up.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 05:58 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every geared fighter can tank TSO raid targets. I have said it 6 months ago.The issue of brawler tanking is we need more gear than plate tanks to tank same targets. It makes plate tanks preferable raid tank for raid progression. Moreover, brawlers are worst in aoe aggro, it's impossible for brawler to compete OT position with aoe plate tanks. When you only need 2 tanks, MT and OT, for raid progression, brawler is not wanted.When brawler is not wanted for raid progression, most hardcore guilds don't recruit brawler anymore in TSO.We need something to make us wanted in raids.</blockquote>So now your guild doesn't want you in raids? lol classic.

Couching

08-19-2009, 05:59 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every geared fighter can tank TSO raid targets. I have said it 6 months ago.The issue of brawler tanking is we need more gear than plate tanks to tank same targets. It makes plate tanks preferable raid tank for raid progression. Moreover, brawlers are worst in aoe aggro, it's impossible for brawler to compete OT position with aoe plate tanks. When you only need 2 tanks, MT and OT, for raid progression, brawler is not wanted.When brawler is not wanted for raid progression, most hardcore guilds don't recruit brawler anymore in TSO.We need something to make us wanted in raids.</blockquote>So now your guild doesn't want you in raids? lol classic.</blockquote>It's ironic from the monk who sat out 90% of raid when his guild was in progression. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 06:03 PM

<cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your own opinions are just as biased as anybody else's. Take off your raid gear and put on MC. Have your guildies take off their raid ger and put on MC (its extremely important for the healer to do this as well). Now, I want you to attempt TSO instances with that setup. A Shadowknight has no problems tanking in this condition. On the DPS side - there are plenty of parses out there to show where the numbers lie. I shouldn't even have to bring that up.</blockquote>Why would I tank a TSO instance which is meant as a progression from capping at 80 RoK in MC gear? This is how it works, you get to 70 start RoK maybe get some MC then gear up for TSO. I mean seriously whats next, SK's are OP because they tank the best naked?

Paperninja

08-19-2009, 06:11 PM

The point I'm trying to make is you're giving a perspective from somebody who already has the best gear in the game. You group with people that have the best gear in the game. Your healer, has the best gear in the game. You sir, are a minority among minorities (a monk in a high end raid guild with the best gear). You have to think about the game from the perspective of the majority of players. That's all the guys trying to get shards and run instances. They're having a very difficult time with it. Could I steam roll instances with lawlz if I was wearing raid gear with my raid geared friends? Yes. Do I even need to and would it serve a purpose other than bragging rights? No.So next, you'll probably mention the fact that we can solo shards (9?). So here is my question -Should a monk have to exploit game mechanics in order to obtain shards?I don't think so, and I don't think we should have to wait until the next expansion in order to feel wanted or needed in your average group. This should be looked at by a developer and tweaked. That is all I want. I want somebody to look at the class and say, "Well.. if change this coefficent and move alter this here....". Patch it and be done. I want customer support in a timely manner. That is all.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 06:13 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every geared fighter can tank TSO raid targets. I have said it 6 months ago.The issue of brawler tanking is we need more gear than plate tanks to tank same targets. It makes plate tanks preferable raid tank for raid progression. Moreover, brawlers are worst in aoe aggro, it's impossible for brawler to compete OT position with aoe plate tanks. When you only need 2 tanks, MT and OT, for raid progression, brawler is not wanted.When brawler is not wanted for raid progression, most hardcore guilds don't recruit brawler anymore in TSO.We need something to make us wanted in raids.</blockquote>So now your guild doesn't want you in raids? lol classic.</blockquote>It's ironic from the monk who sat out 90% of raid when his guild was in progression. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I wish I could sit, I'd be a way better lon player. So which is it, your guild does or doesn't want you in raids? I mean seriously is your and gungo's crying coming from being neglected by your guild? Maybe its time you started listening to the better monks again then instead of running your mouth, mine would immediately recruit a brawler if I left.

Couching

08-19-2009, 06:20 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every geared fighter can tank TSO raid targets. I have said it 6 months ago.The issue of brawler tanking is we need more gear than plate tanks to tank same targets. It makes plate tanks preferable raid tank for raid progression. Moreover, brawlers are worst in aoe aggro, it's impossible for brawler to compete OT position with aoe plate tanks. When you only need 2 tanks, MT and OT, for raid progression, brawler is not wanted.When brawler is not wanted for raid progression, most hardcore guilds don't recruit brawler anymore in TSO.We need something to make us wanted in raids.</blockquote>So now your guild doesn't want you in raids? lol classic.</blockquote>It's ironic from the monk who sat out 90% of raid when his guild was in progression. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I wish I could sit, I'd be a way better lon player. So which is it, your guild does or doesn't want you in raids? I mean seriously is your and gungo's crying coming from being neglected by your guild? Maybe its time you started listening to the better monks again then instead of running your mouth, mine would immediately recruit a brawler if I left.</blockquote>Lol, better monk? I have to agree that you are more experienced than me for sitting out of raids.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 06:22 PM

<cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>The point I'm trying to make is you're giving a perspective from somebody who already has the best gear in the game. You group with people that have the best gear in the game. Your healer, has the best gear in the game. You sir, are a minority among minorities (a monk in a high end raid guild with the best gear). You have to think about the game from the perspective of the majority of players. That's all the guys trying to get shards and run instances. They're having a very difficult time with it. Could I steam roll instances with lawlz if I was wearing raid gear with my raid geared friends? Yes. Do I even need to and would it serve a purpose other than bragging rights? No.So next, you'll probably mention the fact that we can solo shards (9?). So here is my question -Should a monk have to exploit game mechanics in order to obtain shards?I don't think so, and I don't think we should have to wait until the next expansion in order to feel wanted or needed in your average group. This should be looked at by a developer and tweaked. That is all I want. I want somebody to look at the class and say, "Well.. if change this coefficent and move alter this here....". Patch it and be done. I want customer support in a timely manner. That is all.</blockquote>You don't log on and all of a sudden have the BEST gear in the game. My perspective is from tanking all TSO instances in RoK gear. Its from seeing what items make what difference as you progress through this expansion. I barely ever group with my guildies if I do a group it is usually with my friend Elywin healing me whos a non raiding templar. Its not fun grouping with an end game guild in group instances everything dies so fast there is no point, hell I ever do PUG x2 raids so its not like I am only raiding with an endgame guild either. Fact is you have been back for a few weeks and are crying wanting everything handed to you. Do you even have your mythical yet? I mean link your players profile I bet 50 brawlers on here can point out what you are doing wrong. You drank the koolaid when you came back, brawlers aren't as useless as you think they are.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 06:27 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every geared fighter can tank TSO raid targets. I have said it 6 months ago.The issue of brawler tanking is we need more gear than plate tanks to tank same targets. It makes plate tanks preferable raid tank for raid progression. Moreover, brawlers are worst in aoe aggro, it's impossible for brawler to compete OT position with aoe plate tanks. When you only need 2 tanks, MT and OT, for raid progression, brawler is not wanted.When brawler is not wanted for raid progression, most hardcore guilds don't recruit brawler anymore in TSO.We need something to make us wanted in raids.</blockquote>So now your guild doesn't want you in raids? lol classic.</blockquote>It's ironic from the monk who sat out 90% of raid when his guild was in progression. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I wish I could sit, I'd be a way better lon player. So which is it, your guild does or doesn't want you in raids? I mean seriously is your and gungo's crying coming from being neglected by your guild? Maybe its time you started listening to the better monks again then instead of running your mouth, mine would immediately recruit a brawler if I left.</blockquote>Lol, better monk? I have to agree that you are more experienced than me for sitting out of raids.</blockquote>You arent answering the question, does your guild not want you on raids? And seriously is your best defense making something up about me sitting on raids? I mean look at my guild front page I am in every kill screenshot, its hard to do that from outside of raids.

Couching

08-19-2009, 06:35 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every geared fighter can tank TSO raid targets. I have said it 6 months ago.The issue of brawler tanking is we need more gear than plate tanks to tank same targets. It makes plate tanks preferable raid tank for raid progression. Moreover, brawlers are worst in aoe aggro, it's impossible for brawler to compete OT position with aoe plate tanks. When you only need 2 tanks, MT and OT, for raid progression, brawler is not wanted.When brawler is not wanted for raid progression, most hardcore guilds don't recruit brawler anymore in TSO.We need something to make us wanted in raids.</blockquote>So now your guild doesn't want you in raids? lol classic.</blockquote>It's ironic from the monk who sat out 90% of raid when his guild was in progression. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I wish I could sit, I'd be a way better lon player. So which is it, your guild does or doesn't want you in raids? I mean seriously is your and gungo's crying coming from being neglected by your guild? Maybe its time you started listening to the better monks again then instead of running your mouth, mine would immediately recruit a brawler if I left.</blockquote>Lol, better monk? I have to agree that you are more experienced than me for sitting out of raids.</blockquote>You arent answering the question, does your guild not want you on raids? And seriously is your best defense making something up about me sitting on raids? I mean look at my guild front page I am in every kill screenshot, its hard to do that from outside of raids.</blockquote>I don't need to defense anything for if brawler needs something to be wanted. You are the best evidence; sat out of most raids and can only tank for your guild when your MT is on vacation.

Paperninja

08-19-2009, 06:35 PM

When you started TSO you had the best gear that you could possibly have. I know what its like to look at new content and already a step above everybody else. It's always been that way in every game. I'm sure you did fine. Not as well as any other tank in your gear level, but probably fine.You've posted in every thread on every forum about how monks aren't needing to be fixed and everybody is just whining and wanting handouts.It's just you. It's always you vs. whatever 10 people post in the thread. There you are defending the monk class and letting everybody know how awesome it is.You're not helping. Stop.The basics again -1) The brawler is the worst tank in the game.2) The brawler is the least desirable tank in the game.3) The brawler does not have the highest DPS of the fighter class despite being the worst tank.4) The brawler has no real desirable raid utility.5) Most brawlers end up exploiting the game in order to obtain shards since grouping is difficult.This should be addressed prior to the next expansion. Something like this should not have to wait until a major content release. That is all. Customer service please.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 06:41 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't need to defense anything for if brawler needs something to be wanted. You are the best evidence; sat out of most raids and can only tank for your guild when your MT is on vacation. </blockquote>So your guild doesn't want you. I find that funny, but it doesn't surprise me since from what I heard you aren't very effective. I get it all brawlers suck because Couching's guild doesn't want him, queue the QQ.

Atavax311

08-19-2009, 06:41 PM

a small request. instead of quoting the quoting of a quote back like 20 times, only quoting the response to a quote is really needed for people to understand what you're responding to, makes things alot easier to read to, k, thx.

BChizzle

08-19-2009, 06:46 PM

<cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you started TSO you had the best gear that you could possibly have. I know what its like to look at new content and already a step above everybody else. It's always been that way in every game. I'm sure you did fine. Not as well as any other tank in your gear level, but probably fine.You've posted in every thread on every forum about how monks aren't needing to be fixed and everybody is just whining and wanting handouts.It's just you. It's always you vs. whatever 10 people post in the thread. There you are defending the monk class and letting everybody know how awesome it is.You're not helping. Stop.The basics again -1) The brawler is the worst tank in the game.2) The brawler is the least desirable tank in the game.3) The brawler does not have the highest DPS of the fighter class despite being the worst tank.4) The brawler has no real desirable raid utility.5) Most brawlers end up exploiting the game in order to obtain shards since grouping is difficult.This should be addressed prior to the next expansion. Something like this should not have to wait until a major content release. That is all. Customer service please.</blockquote>1) brawlers can tank any content currently in this game2) brawlers are one of the more common and popular classes in this game3) no tank is remotely close to the dps parses I put up before they nerfed palace trash, single target brawlers are kings by a mile.4) brawler raidwide is typically considered the top raidwide for tanks, brawlers can also have the best avoidance check buff.5) if you are having trouble getting a group screaming about how monks suck on a forum isn't going to help people beleive in you.

Paperninja

08-19-2009, 06:48 PM

That's fair. We do have utility, it's just been diminished as of late. It is possible that we'll see this change next expansion, but I just feel that Sony owes us as paying customers to at least attempt to balance things during these updates. We pay them and they are not providing the kind of customer service I would expect from a company selling a product that could be canceled at any point.I want change not promises.If things stay par to the course - The expansion will come out. Things will not be balanced and we will be told to wait until the next expansion. That's utter bullocks.

Blu

08-19-2009, 06:51 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think a valid point to all this is that it's easier to gear up a brawler as a backup MT than another plate tank (less competition for patterns), yet hardly anyone is doing it. Regardless if it's only poor perception, this perception is shaping reality, and SOE needs to do something to change it.I also believe a lot of the negative perception from other classes and frustration from the brawler side comes from group tanking, where we have aggro problems in most TSO content unless the group is setup just so. It only takes a couple of attempts at tanking TSO, not knowing you absolutely needed hate xfer classes, for you to get frustrated and 5-10 other people coming away with the opinion that brawlers suck at tanking. If that problem were fixed, I think the perception of brawlers as tanks would be boosted a bit.</blockquote>I agree perception is more of the problem then reality. Don't know how many times I have heard "I thought monks sucked until (Blanka, Mephetic, Setsuka, etc) tanked a zone/raid for me." Or even when we get new healers in my guild and they are like "Wow I didn't know brawlers could tank like that."</blockquote>Personally, I believe that brawlers do have it worse than other fighters atm (aoe aggro, and needing comparatively more gear than other fighters to accomplish the task), but I was suggesting that even if it were only a matter of perception, SOE still needs to do something to fix it. Either way, something needs to be done.