Isn't it odd.... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Landiin

08-14-2009, 03:07 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EDIT: I can work these forums like I can play EQ2. </cite></blockquote>There fixed it for you..Any way..I was being sarcastic about the balance post but I guess you're to caught up in your crusade that will never happen to see that...L2P</blockquote>What crusade? You mean defending the current balance against the couple of whiny Guards that can't seem to play to their potential...guilty as charged I guess.The thing is every single post you put in that kind of garbage. If you guys would concentrate half the effort you put into these stupid forums into how you tank you would see how things really are...but I guess it is much easier to post after post hoping SOE for some deluded reason believes you and makes you "easy-mode" like in RoK. Good luck with that.</blockquote>I don't care if you guys have the easy button, all I wanna do is be able to do my job like you can do your job with out having the perfect group setup. You have zero room to say easy mode bucause you have the “be all and end all” easy button.

Bruener

08-14-2009, 01:40 PM

Please define job and perfect set-up.Maybe, just maybe, your idea for job is different than what SOEs idea for a Guards job...because Guards do what they have been doing since launch.

Yimway

08-14-2009, 01:47 PM

RafaelSmith

08-14-2009, 02:36 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please define job and perfect set-up.Maybe, just maybe, your idea for job is different than what SOEs idea for a Guards job...because Guards do what they have been doing since launch.</blockquote>If your talking about the tanks job then I woudl define it as:L1) Having the knowledge and the 'leadership' to lead a group thru a zone, know how to pull, position mobs, etc2) Being able to take the DMG dished out in whatever form it may come....3) Being able to reliably keep all the mobs off the rest of 'equally' geared/abled group members so that they can perform their job as best they can.#1) is entirely in the hands of the player.....nothing SOE can do about it. Some players frankly are not cut out to be tanks no matter what class they choose........just as I am not cut out to be healer....sure I can figure out the class, learn how the heals work, how to optimize my gear......but I lack that certain 'whatever' that makes someone want to heal and be good at it.#2) as far as I can tell is fine for just about all the 4 plate fighters.#3) this is where things fall apart.....Most guards simply cannot do that without others basically doing the job for them....i.e that perfect group where hate xfer is there, DPS classes are smart and adjust their play around the deficiency of the guard.So while I may 'downplay' the surviveability advantage Guards are suppose to have.......you really downplay the fact that is means nothing if aggro is not solid....or the fact that you have more than sufficient surviveability and over the top aggro and DPS.A Tank without the ability to generate and maintain aggro is not really a tank no matter what his other stats are.

Nero

08-14-2009, 10:43 PM

What Shadowknight was in pre-TSO.(1)Shadowknight tried to pursue dps in a raid though he was a tank and his dps was very low because he couldn't hold aggro and keep alive in a raid and all he could do was dps.(2)Shadowknight was a slave of Guardian, the MT.SK couldn't even participate in /ran 100 of drop items in a raid because of silent pressure.SK(or Crusader) was a slave of Guardian because he couldn't do anything for a raid.

Rahatmattata

08-15-2009, 03:30 AM

Passed expansions are irrelevent. If you want to play that game then guards, brawlers, summoners, rangers, and druids should be OP next year... and enchanters, crusaders, templars, and assassins should suck.Or they could just stop being dumb and actually balance classes the best they can and closely moniter legitiment feedback, and actually play and test their game, and make minor tweaks along the way in a timely manner if and only if needed.

Yimway

08-15-2009, 05:19 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Passed expansions are irrelevent. If you want to play that game then guards, brawlers, summoners, rangers, and druids should be OP next year... and enchanters, crusaders, templars, and assassins should suck.Or they could just stop being dumb and actually balance classes the best they can and closely moniter legitiment feedback, and actually play and test their game, and make minor tweaks along the way in a timely manner if and only if needed.</blockquote>Its not going to happen until the class balance team consists of atleast 4 people.As long as its one guy, its just not going to be remotely balanced. I play as much as anyone, and I only know 12 classes inside and out, I'd be surprised if he actually had 200 hours of playtime on each class.

Bruener

08-15-2009, 10:10 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Passed expansions are irrelevent. If you want to play that game then guards, brawlers, summoners, rangers, and druids should be OP next year...</blockquote>There I fixed it for you, and this is probably what will happen next year. Brawlers, summoners and druids are probably going to be slightly OP'd. Crossed off a couple on your list there because they definitely do not deserve to be OP because unlike what some of you think they are not lacking. Guards are still the best MT and rangers are still T1 DPS and will top the parse on anything joustable.As far as making other classes that are doing well now, suck in the future...it doesn't work that way. Enchanters (especially Illu) have been amazing for a long long time, templars have always been good, Assassins have always been top DPS...and Crusaders (specifically SKs) had finally gotten the fixes they had been waiting on for 4 years.LoL, at Guards trying to put themselves in the same position as Summoners and Brawlers. How many Guards do you see on raids....1 almost all the time....how many Summoners and Brawlers do you see on raids....

Aull

08-15-2009, 02:23 PM

If anything I hope that brawlers, summoners, and druids have better value next expac than what they have now. I do hope that they do not become OP causing a nerf that later basically puts them back in a position they just came out of.

Gilasil

08-15-2009, 02:39 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>If anything I hope that brawlers, summoners, and druids have better value next expac than what they have now. I do hope that they do not become OP causing a nerf that later basically puts them back in a position they just came out of.</blockquote>I have to agree with you. While it would be fun for awhile to be overpowered, I'd really be happy to have a valued role in groups and raids which I enjoyed playing. Besides, the idea of brawlers being overpowered in raid settings is such a foreign concept I can't get my mind around it. Fact is, I doubt SoE will even make the comperable.About the one guy doing balance. I'm sure he doesn'thave 200 hours of playtime on each. If you work a standard workweek it comes out to a tad over 2000 hours a year. If he spent an entire year just playing each class to get familiar with them that comes out to 83 hours per class, and I really doubt he did that. Probably less then a day or two each. can't see a place like that giving him any appreciable time to just become familiar with each class without having something to show for it.SoE should have never made a game with 24 classes if they weren't prepared to spend the effort to keep them reasonably balanced.Which explains a lot of the problems.

Atavax311

08-15-2009, 02:54 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Passed expansions are irrelevent. If you want to play that game then guards, brawlers, summoners, rangers, and druids should be OP next year...</blockquote>There I fixed it for you, and this is probably what will happen next year. Brawlers, summoners and druids are probably going to be slightly OP'd. Crossed off a couple on your list there because they definitely do not deserve to be OP because unlike what some of you think they are not lacking. Guards are still the best MT and rangers are still T1 DPS and will top the parse on anything joustable.As far as making other classes that are doing well now, suck in the future...it doesn't work that way. Enchanters (especially Illu) have been amazing for a long long time, templars have always been good, Assassins have always been top DPS...and Crusaders (specifically SKs) had finally gotten the fixes they had been waiting on for 4 years.LoL, at Guards trying to put themselves in the same position as Summoners and Brawlers. How many Guards do you see on raids....1 almost all the time....how many Summoners and Brawlers do you see on raids....</blockquote>well, i almost never see guards in WOE or Kurnsx2. Guardians are only popular as raid MT's because the MT's have been MTing for years. you dont trade years of experiance and expertise for a noob playing an OP class that might get nerfed any day. i agree that they arent as broken as brawlers, but i would put them near summoners and druids. maybe more broken then druids. i dont think i've seen any raid without at least one druid; cant say the same for guardians. druids are also extremely desired in 6 mans if the tank is a brawler, and if it isnt a brawler, they're still more desirable then a guardian.

Bruener

08-15-2009, 06:17 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Passed expansions are irrelevent. If you want to play that game then guards, brawlers, summoners, rangers, and druids should be OP next year...</blockquote>There I fixed it for you, and this is probably what will happen next year. Brawlers, summoners and druids are probably going to be slightly OP'd. Crossed off a couple on your list there because they definitely do not deserve to be OP because unlike what some of you think they are not lacking. Guards are still the best MT and rangers are still T1 DPS and will top the parse on anything joustable.As far as making other classes that are doing well now, suck in the future...it doesn't work that way. Enchanters (especially Illu) have been amazing for a long long time, templars have always been good, Assassins have always been top DPS...and Crusaders (specifically SKs) had finally gotten the fixes they had been waiting on for 4 years.LoL, at Guards trying to put themselves in the same position as Summoners and Brawlers. How many Guards do you see on raids....1 almost all the time....how many Summoners and Brawlers do you see on raids....</blockquote>well, i almost never see guards in WOE or Kurnsx2. Guardians are only popular as raid MT's because the MT's have been MTing for years. you dont trade years of experiance and expertise for a noob playing an OP class that might get nerfed any day. i agree that they arent as broken as brawlers, but i would put them near summoners and druids. maybe more broken then druids. i dont think i've seen any raid without at least one druid; cant say the same for guardians. druids are also extremely desired in 6 mans if the tank is a brawler, and if it isnt a brawler, they're still more desirable then a guardian.</blockquote>The few of you that are not MT'ing that keep saying that the reason there are so many Guard MTs out there really need to get over it. The fact is a lot of the raiding guilds try to maximize as much as possible...I read a post recently about Strike going through like 3 MTs or something silly in the last few months. In fact they have only had a couple of MTs that ever lasted 6 months. And you know what, those guilds are still recruiting Guards most of the time for the MT spot. Turn-over is always high and you recruit for what works.As far as WoE or Kurns x2, yeah if you are over-geared and going for time, hence not using 2 tanks yeah an AE tank is going to be better for the few AE intensive fights out there. But playing to level you would most likely use 2 tanks, and a Guard does great as primary tank once again while the other tank scoops up adds.Fact is Guards might be able to use a couple tweaks to help them out in heroic content, but by no means are they in the same boat as brawlers, necros, and druids. Guards have never had to play down at that level.

Yimway

08-15-2009, 09:59 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>As far as WoE or Kurns x2, yeah if you are over-geared and going for time, hence not using 2 tanks yeah an AE tank is going to be better for the few AE intensive fights out there. But playing to level you would most likely use 2 tanks, and a Guard does great as primary tank once again while the other tank scoops up adds.</blockquote>Sure, if 'over geared' means a set of t2 armor, yeah, you're spot on.

Atavax311

08-15-2009, 10:00 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The few of you that are not MT'ing that keep saying that the reason there are so many Guard MTs out there really need to get over it. The fact is a lot of the raiding guilds try to maximize as much as possible...I read a post recently about Strike going through like 3 MTs or something silly in the last few months. In fact they have only had a couple of MTs that ever lasted 6 months. And you know what, those guilds are still recruiting Guards most of the time for the MT spot. Turn-over is always high and you recruit for what works.As far as WoE or Kurns x2, yeah if you are over-geared and going for time, hence not using 2 tanks yeah an AE tank is going to be better for the few AE intensive fights out there. But playing to level you would most likely use 2 tanks, and a Guard does great as primary tank once again while the other tank scoops up adds.Fact is Guards might be able to use a couple tweaks to help them out in heroic content, but by no means are they in the same boat as brawlers, necros, and druids. Guards have never had to play down at that level.</blockquote>just because they're going through tanks, doesnt mean the tanks they're going through arent extremely experianced tanks. and they are recruiting guards because guards are the most experianced tanks around.i have seen many guild progress through WoE with a Crusader MT. why would they bring a guardian? the mitigation and avoidance is comparable, the ae tank has superior death saves and superior threat, given the choice of two equally skilled, experianced, and geared tanks, there is no reason to bring a guardian over a sk.2nd, even if you still think Guardians are the best choice as MT; thats 1 spot in raids, and zero spots in heroics for an entire class. druids have it better then that for sure.

Nero

08-15-2009, 10:26 PM

There is almost always Guardian MT in a x4 raid.But a x4 raid without Berserker, Paladin, Shadowknight, Monk or Bruiser can exist.A x4 raid without Guardian can hardly exist.

Kordran

08-15-2009, 10:45 PM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is almost always Guardian MT in a x4 raid.But a x4 raid without Berserker, Paladin, Shadowknight, Monk or Bruiser can exist.A x4 raid without Guardian can hardly exist.</blockquote>That would be completely untrue. We've done everything, up to and including Anashti, etc. without a Guardian in the raid at all. Most guilds prefer them for tough FTKs, but once you've got the encounter down, it's certainly not the case that the "raid can hardly exist" without them. That said, our Guardian is a great MT and he's an asset to the raid; but that has more to do with him as a player, not specifically the class.

Kordran

08-15-2009, 10:50 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read a post recently about Strike going through like 3 MTs or something silly in the last few months. In fact they have only had a couple of MTs that ever lasted 6 months. And you know what, those guilds are still recruiting Guards most of the time for the MT spot. Turn-over is always high and you recruit for what works.</blockquote>It's true that most guilds will go for Guardians as their preferred MT, but there are more of them "thinking outside the box" and recruiting Shadowknights for the position. That in of itself isn't a bad thing, but it does encroach on the last remaining niche of the Guardian class. And although it's really a different subject, tank turnover in raiding guilds tends to be high regardless if its MT, OT or 3T; it's the nature of the beast.

Atavax311

08-16-2009, 01:15 AM

Landiin

08-16-2009, 01:47 AM

Nero

08-16-2009, 09:31 AM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>there are tons of raiding guilds doing x4 content without a guardian.</blockquote>If it's true, that's fine because it means that fighters except Brawler are balanced at last.

Rahatmattata

08-16-2009, 12:13 PM

No, it means the one thing a guardian is slightly useful for can also be performed by any other plate tanks, making guardian useful for nothing. If guardians could dps, solo, roll noobs in pvp, mass pull, and OFF-TANK waves of adds as well as a shadowknight, then we would be closer to balance in plate tanks.

Bruener

08-16-2009, 01:00 PM

<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=453711">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=453711</a>There ya go, a sampling of classes represented by top raiding guilds. Based on the numbers there are at least 1 Guard per guild on average...he is the MT.Numbers do not lie. And since we know that Guards aren't being brought for any other spot besides MT, there is no doubt that they still own their niche. Not to mention that the amount of crusaders v warriors on raids is pretty equal. Just more support showing that plate tanks are where they should be balance wise.

Aull

08-16-2009, 01:44 PM

I have been a search for who is playing what class of the fighters the shadowknight has been topping them all with the most numbers consistantly and bruisers are dead last in numbers.Thats not to say that there are not a bunch of bruisers but many are just not playing them the past few months.The number of sk's are triple of any other fighter on when I do the sampling. Paladins are next with zerkers, guardians, monks showing numbers in the 15-25 range and seeing a listing of 10+ bruisers on is very rare.

Atavax311

08-16-2009, 03:17 PM

top raiding guilds who have the best tanks in the game, arent going to switch them out for some noob playing an OP class that could get nerfed at any moment. that is why the top raiding guilds have a guardian as MT. now, equaly experianced, skilled, and geared SK's are superior to guards and many guilds are using them to MT x2 and x4 content for progression. Guardians have no niche, you used a tiny sample size and it still showed that in guilds doing nothing but raiding, SK's were still more common then Guardians, Despite SK's also being the best heroic tank, one of the best soloers. top raiding guilds are top raiding guilds not because they have the best possbile make-up, they are top because they have extremely skilled, competent players, they dont throw someone thats been MTing since the beginning of the game away because their class got a nerf, and pick up some noob. as long as they are still able to do the content with the experianced MT, they're gonna keep him.

Kordran

08-16-2009, 03:24 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>The number of sk's are triple of any other fighter on when I do the sampling. Paladins are next with zerkers, guardians, monks showing numbers in the 15-25 range and seeing a listing of 10+ bruisers on is very rare.</blockquote>In hardcore raiding guilds (by which I mean raid >3 nights per week, have cleared most if not all of the TSO content at this point) I'd say the vast majority of Paladins betrayed to Shadowknights this past winter. There are very few active, raiding Paladins out there; there's alts of course, and they're great instance tanks, but as primary core raiding toons? Not so much. The chart that was linked above looks pretty accurate. Of course, group/duo play is very different, and Paladins tend to be popular there, if for no other reason than conceptually a lot of casual players like the idea of a fighter that can heal itself.

Bruener

08-16-2009, 08:58 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>top raiding guilds who have the best tanks in the game, arent going to switch them out for some noob playing an OP class that could get nerfed at any moment. that is why the top raiding guilds have a guardian as MT. now, equaly experianced, skilled, and geared SK's are superior to guards and many guilds are using them to MT x2 and x4 content for progression. Guardians have no niche, you used a tiny sample size and it still showed that in guilds doing nothing but raiding, SK's were still more common then Guardians, Despite SK's also being the best heroic tank, one of the best soloers. top raiding guilds are top raiding guilds not because they have the best possbile make-up, they are top because they have extremely skilled, competent players, they dont throw someone thats been MTing since the beginning of the game away because their class got a nerf, and pick up some noob. as long as they are still able to do the content with the experianced MT, they're gonna keep him.</blockquote>Ok, so maybe you should read back through this. First we discussed the fact that high end raiding guilds have a lot of turn-over MTs, OTs, whatever. Go back and read about the amount of MTs Strike has went through. Than we take a look at the fact that top raid guilds still are supporting Guards on their roster. Its simple really and you guys need to realize that Guards still are the best at their niche spot of MT.There are extremely good players in all classes and if any other class was more suited to MT than Guards than those guilds would definitely be the ones to compound on it first. Instead I know of many players that still switch to their Guards to MT when their guild needs it. The don't roll a SK to MT, or a Zerker or a Paladin. If a guild wants a committed skilled player to MT they have them roll up a Guard.As far as MT'ing since the beginning of the game how many MTs do you think are really out there that have been doing it from the beginning. Some of the best MTs have only been playing Guards since RoK or even TSO. On the other hand I know a lot of extremely skilled SKs, some playing since launch, that are not MT'ing...they are OT'ing.Moral of the story is that this is not all coincidence and Guards don't have it half as bad as what the whiners make it out to be. Guards should never put themselves on the same level as what Brawlers have it now or how SKs had it in the past. They do their job, and they do it the best still. Tank the hardest mobs in the game and soak up the most damage during progression.

Rahatmattata

08-17-2009, 12:46 AM

None of your long-winded useless words changes the fact SKs are OP and guardians need work.Nerf shadowknights.

Ardors

08-17-2009, 02:00 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> Go back and read about the amount of MTs Strike has went through. Isnt Jaraxx the MT of Strike? , and has been for years?? Than we take a look at the fact that top raid guilds still are supporting Guards on their roster. Its simple really and you guys need to realize that Guards still are the best at their niche spot of MT. I am a guard and I have been MTing for yeard for my guild. I can MT all content no problem atm, and is why I still do it... But don't tell me SK's do not make things easy on many fights... (The adds on Penta/Ultra, Adds on Gynok, Adds on Anashti...) all those can certainally be done by a well played Guard, but I assure you a SK just sit there and make it look easy... bluring mobs and all...There are extremely good players in all classes and if any other class was more suited to MT than Guards than those guilds would definitely be the ones to compound on it first. Instead I know of many players that still switch to their Guards to MT when their guild needs it. The don't roll a SK to MT, or a Zerker or a Paladin. If a guild wants a committed skilled player to MT they have them roll up a Guard. I dont agree with you at all. I tank most names at the moment because I know the fights...(possitioning, calling AEs, strat, etc..) and I often let our SK (which has lesser gear btw) tank in many situations because I know it will be easier...(like the trash when you enter Penta/ultra/mynzak floor, or when you enter Anashti's floor as well.) but he can MT any TSO encounters we are doing just as well as me which he does when I'am not there... because he has enough gear to get into the return curve and he's getting hit about the same as me...even if i have 3k+ more Mit than him...so here goes my niche...Now... I agree Guards are not in crysis per say...we can still tank it all when you know [Removed for Content] you doing...but dont tell me were balanced...SK's can MT everything with little differances to the damage he takes, and can do so much more in all areas of the game.</blockquote>

Kimber

08-17-2009, 05:05 AM

As I said in one of the other posts here evedently not many of you play healers as well as tanks. I do and I can tell you this in order of ease of keeping the tank alive with gear being equal ( using T2 shard gear as my basis )1 SK easy as hell to heal can almost go afk and make dinner.2 Pally little harder but can go grab coke outa the fridge3 Guard better stay at the keyboard and be ready some nasty spikes are in bound4 Zerk if you are not hitting a heal or ward when it comes up you are wrong5 Brawlers ( sorry for lumping you guys togather ) Better have a great OT cause the mob is headed your way if you miss a single heal or ward cause they are going down.So with the above I dont want to hear that Warriors do not need help and that all is well in the figher relm. Warrior tanks should have higher Mit and better survivability than Crusaders with Crusaders coming in a close 2nd due to life taps/self heals. Brawlers well ya'll need your avoidance fixed and a bit more mit so you dont get one shotted other than that not sure what would help ya out cause I really dont like healing ya'll as a MT.

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 05:15 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, so maybe you should read back through this. First we discussed the fact that high end raiding guilds have a lot of turn-over MTs, OTs, whatever. Go back and read about the amount of MTs Strike has went through. Than we take a look at the fact that top raid guilds still are supporting Guards on their roster. Its simple really and you guys need to realize that Guards still are the best at their niche spot of MT.There are extremely good players in all classes and if any other class was more suited to MT than Guards than those guilds would definitely be the ones to compound on it first. Instead I know of many players that still switch to their Guards to MT when their guild needs it. The don't roll a SK to MT, or a Zerker or a Paladin. If a guild wants a committed skilled player to MT they have them roll up a Guard.As far as MT'ing since the beginning of the game how many MTs do you think are really out there that have been doing it from the beginning. Some of the best MTs have only been playing Guards since RoK or even TSO. On the other hand I know a lot of extremely skilled SKs, some playing since launch, that are not MT'ing...they are OT'ing.Moral of the story is that this is not all coincidence and Guards don't have it half as bad as what the whiners make it out to be. Guards should never put themselves on the same level as what Brawlers have it now or how SKs had it in the past. They do their job, and they do it the best still. Tank the hardest mobs in the game and soak up the most damage during progression.</blockquote>yes, high end raiding guilds do have a certain amount of turn-over. but the top raiding guilds dont recruit some noob to MT, they hire the most experianced, skilled, geared main tank they can find, and guess who those are? guardians.there are extremely good players in every class. but very few tanks outside of Guardians have any experiance outside of TSO raid Main Tanking. all the experianced Raid main tanks are Guardians.I dont know how many Guardians are still playing from the beginning but even if they've only been Main Tanking since ROK, thats still way more experiance then other tank classes. Wow, your friend has been playing since the start, how many years has he been a main tank? oh? none? well he isnt experianced at it then.

Kordran

08-17-2009, 07:48 AM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>there are extremely good players in every class. but very few tanks outside of Guardians have any experiance outside of TSO raid Main Tanking. all the experianced Raid main tanks are Guardians.</blockquote>That would be untrue. You could say that many experienced raid MTs are Guardians, but certainly not all. In fact, smart raid leaders try to make sure that all of their core plate tanks are (a) comparably geared, (b) have experience in both the MT and OT roles, and know all of the fights from both perspectives. That kind of flexibility comes in handy when one is unable to raid on any given night. If the guild's Guardian MT is out sick, what do you do? Just call the raid and tell everyone to have a nice evening? We sure as heck don't do that.

BChizzle

08-17-2009, 09:55 AM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As I said in one of the other posts here evedently not many of you play healers as well as tanks. I do and I can tell you this in order of ease of keeping the tank alive with gear being equal ( using T2 shard gear as my basis )1 SK easy as hell to heal can almost go afk and make dinner.2 Pally little harder but can go grab coke outa the fridge3 Guard better stay at the keyboard and be ready some nasty spikes are in bound4 Zerk if you are not hitting a heal or ward when it comes up you are wrong5 Brawlers ( sorry for lumping you guys togather ) Better have a great OT cause the mob is headed your way if you miss a single heal or ward cause they are going down.So with the above I dont want to hear that Warriors do not need help and that all is well in the figher relm. Warrior tanks should have higher Mit and better survivability than Crusaders with Crusaders coming in a close 2nd due to life taps/self heals. Brawlers well ya'll need your avoidance fixed and a bit more mit so you dont get one shotted other than that not sure what would help ya out cause I really dont like healing ya'll as a MT.</blockquote>Every tank can tank from a survivability standpoint, the advantages of a SK are not in any way on the healing side it is from the fact that they hold agro with very little effort. Other then bloodletter SK's really aren't that special when it comes to taking damage.

RafaelSmith

08-17-2009, 09:57 AM

Fighters are a selfish/single minded bunch....Bruener being case and point........soI think if you really want to find out how 'balanced' fighters are we should ask everyone but fighters. Given quality players....one from each tank class.Which would healers prefer MT their group?.Which would DPS prefer MT their group?.When forming a WoE raid....or TMC......or Palace......or YiS......or........No Guards do not have it any where near as bad off as Brawlers or others but we need help because the plates are not balanced.....especially from the perspective of "class progression".And just because one tank class may have been the tank of choice for everything in a prior expansion does not justify doing the same thing with another tank class with the next expansion.

BChizzle

08-17-2009, 10:33 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighters are a selfish/single minded bunch....Bruener being case and point........soI think if you really want to find out how 'balanced' fighters are we should ask everyone but fighters. Given quality players....one from each tank class.Which would healers prefer MT their group?.Which would DPS prefer MT their group?.When forming a WoE raid....or TMC......or Palace......or YiS......or........No Guards do not have it any where near as bad off as Brawlers or others but we need help because the plates are not balanced.....especially from the perspective of "class progression".And just because one tank class may have been the tank of choice for everything in a prior expansion does not justify doing the same thing with another tank class with the next expansion.</blockquote>I don't think it is a bad thing to be selfish. But I think the bar is set at SK and every tank should be just as good. So no nerf of SK but buff everyone up to them. People like Bruener are a good example, he is happy with his class, where he is a bad example is when he doesn't want others to be just as happy with thier classes.

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 11:48 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>there are extremely good players in every class. but very few tanks outside of Guardians have any experiance outside of TSO raid Main Tanking. all the experianced Raid main tanks are Guardians.</blockquote>That would be untrue. You could say that many experienced raid MTs are Guardians, but certainly not all. In fact, smart raid leaders try to make sure that all of their core plate tanks are (a) comparably geared, (b) have experience in both the MT and OT roles, and know all of the fights from both perspectives. That kind of flexibility comes in handy when one is unable to raid on any given night. If the guild's Guardian MT is out sick, what do you do? Just call the raid and tell everyone to have a nice evening? We sure as heck don't do that.</blockquote>i agree, its called a generalization even if you look at the sentence before i said "all" i said "few tanks outside of guardians". and typically when the mt is sick, you dont progression raid, you farm old content, and farming old content, and mting progression are two completely different things.

Paperninja

08-17-2009, 12:27 PM

My biggest problem with class and balance and eq2 is this -Everybody has this mentality that if your class gets screwed you have to wait until the next expansion pack before anything is fixed. What kind of crap is that? I also play the other game (WoW gasp). If you look at their patch notes you will see major major class updates with every single patch. They are very serious and concerned about keeping classes balanced in PVE and PVP. They don't always hit the mark, but hey, at least they are always attempting to keep it balanced. I can't imagine what would happen if they said, "Oh, it's cool guyz. We're gonna fix you next expansion! Good luck the next 9 months lolz!"Sony, just get it done. Christ.

Bruener

08-17-2009, 12:29 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighters are a selfish/single minded bunch....Bruener being case and point........soI think if you really want to find out how 'balanced' fighters are we should ask everyone but fighters. Given quality players....one from each tank class.Which would healers prefer MT their group?.Which would DPS prefer MT their group?.When forming a WoE raid....or TMC......or Palace......or YiS......or........No Guards do not have it any where near as bad off as Brawlers or others but we need help because the plates are not balanced.....especially from the perspective of "class progression".And just because one tank class may have been the tank of choice for everything in a prior expansion does not justify doing the same thing with another tank class with the next expansion.</blockquote>I don't think it is a bad thing to be selfish. But I think the bar is set at SK and every tank should be just as good. So no nerf of SK but buff everyone up to them. People like Bruener are a good example, he is happy with his class, where he is a bad example is when he doesn't want others to be just as happy with thier classes.</blockquote>Yes I am happy. And it only took 4 years for SOE to actually get SKs right. I am not opposed to tweaks on other classes for fixes in the departments they are lacking. I just don't think that Guards specifically have it as bad off as they make it out to be, and they definitely don't in the end-game raiding department. I say give Guards their DA line back if that is what they think they need for heroic content, or increase their taunts some. Give them 1 more AE or something to help make things slightly easier for AE content. Give Brawlers 40% AE auto attack.Crusaders are sitting good right now. Zerks are sitting good, maybe an increase on hit rate to help them out. Guards slight increase for agro at the heroic level. Brawlers bump up that AE agro slightly and I say move the uncontested avoidance to work for both stances. Minor tweaks.My issue is these Guards crying in every single thread making it sound like their class is broken when it is far from that. Guards still take damage better than any other tank, and for the healer saying otherwise you need to group up with better playing Guards. Guards handle spike damage better than anybody with their abilities that are on faster recasts. The problem is that if some of these guys even got half of what they desired we would be back into a position way worse than RoK where Guards were light years ahead of any other tank. Its tough coming off that high, but things were adjusted for balance issues, maybe slightly too far and I am sure SOE is going to give you those MINOR tweaks to help you out next x-pac.

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 12:50 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes I am happy. And it only took 4 years for SOE to actually get SKs right. I am not opposed to tweaks on other classes for fixes in the departments they are lacking. I just don't think that Guards specifically have it as bad off as they make it out to be, and they definitely don't in the end-game raiding department. I say give Guards their DA line back if that is what they think they need for heroic content, or increase their taunts some. Give them 1 more AE or something to help make things slightly easier for AE content. Give Brawlers 40% AE auto attack.Crusaders are sitting good right now. Zerks are sitting good, maybe an increase on hit rate to help them out. Guards slight increase for agro at the heroic level. Brawlers bump up that AE agro slightly and I say move the uncontested avoidance to work for both stances. Minor tweaks.My issue is these Guards crying in every single thread making it sound like their class is broken when it is far from that. Guards still take damage better than any other tank, and for the healer saying otherwise you need to group up with better playing Guards. Guards handle spike damage better than anybody with their abilities that are on faster recasts. The problem is that if some of these guys even got half of what they desired we would be back into a position way worse than RoK where Guards were light years ahead of any other tank. Its tough coming off that high, but things were adjusted for balance issues, maybe slightly too far and I am sure SOE is going to give you those MINOR tweaks to help you out next x-pac.</blockquote>yes, lots of healers say Guardians are not easier to heal, you counter that they need to be with better Guardians. What do you think the Guardians they're grouping with arent doing? do you know the class at all, or are you just full of bullsh*t, qqing about a class you know nothing about?and no, guardians dont just need a slight aggro increase in heroics. for a Guardian to do half the job an SK does in threat, a Guardian has to be in Offensive and DWing. for a Guardian to be comparable in survivability, he has to be in defense with a shield. a Guardian is about half as effective in threat while in defensive and a shield compared to Offensive DWing. and a Guardian is significantly less survivabile in offensive DWing then defensive with a shield. So either a guardian is roughly comparable to a SK in survivability and can do a tiny fraction of his threat, of a guardian is way less survivable then a SK and can do roughly half his threat. the only reason Guardians can still MT is because we stick hate mod and hate tranfers in MT group and put troubs with the dps groups.either Guardians need a huge buff in threat, or Crusaders need a huge nerf, or a combination of the two. i like the challenge involved with holding aggro, so i would prefer a huge nerf to Crusaders.

Kordran

08-17-2009, 02:07 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i like the challenge involved with holding aggro, so i would prefer a huge nerf to Crusaders.</blockquote>The problem there is less technical, and more practical in that players of ~12 classes would not prefer the tank have the "challenge involved with holding aggro" because it would mean that they cannot burn at full throttle from the pull. And like it or not, that's a style of play that has become the norm now. Putting the toothpaste back in the tube would be a very messy proposition, and probably a hassle that SOE would rather do without.And that kind of gets to the real core of the issue, as I see it. Guardians are perfectly capable of tanking any content, but they require more specific group builds and greater cooperation on the part of the group members to do their job well. Ask most scouts or mages if they prefer a tank that requires they manage their aggro, or one that provides a virtually unlimited DPS threshold, which do you think 99% of them are going to choose?

RafaelSmith

08-17-2009, 02:30 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighters are a selfish/single minded bunch....Bruener being case and point........soI think if you really want to find out how 'balanced' fighters are we should ask everyone but fighters.Given quality players....one from each tank class.Which would healers prefer MT their group?.Which would DPS prefer MT their group?.When forming a WoE raid....or TMC......or Palace......or YiS......or........No Guards do not have it any where near as bad off as Brawlers or others but we need help because the plates are not balanced.....especially from the perspective of "class progression".And just because one tank class may have been the tank of choice for everything in a prior expansion does not justify doing the same thing with another tank class with the next expansion.</blockquote>I don't think it is a bad thing to be selfish. But I think the bar is set at SK and every tank should be just as good. So no nerf of SK but buff everyone up to them. People like Bruener are a good example, he is happy with his class, where he is a bad example is when he doesn't want others to be just as happy with thier classes.</blockquote>Yes I am happy. And it only took 4 years for SOE to actually get SKs right. I am not opposed to tweaks on other classes for fixes in the departments they are lacking. I just don't think that Guards specifically have it as bad off as they make it out to be, and they definitely don't in the end-game raiding department. I say give Guards their DA line back if that is what they think they need for heroic content, or increase their taunts some. Give them 1 more AE or something to help make things slightly easier for AE content. Give Brawlers 40% AE auto attack.Crusaders are sitting good right now. Zerks are sitting good, maybe an increase on hit rate to help them out. Guards slight increase for agro at the heroic level. Brawlers bump up that AE agro slightly and I say move the uncontested avoidance to work for both stances. Minor tweaks.My issue is these Guards crying in every single thread making it sound like their class is broken when it is far from that. Guards still take damage better than any other tank, and for the healer saying otherwise you need to group up with better playing Guards. Guards handle spike damage better than anybody with their abilities that are on faster recasts. The problem is that if some of these guys even got half of what they desired we would be back into a position way worse than RoK where Guards were light years ahead of any other tank. Its tough coming off that high, but things were adjusted for balance issues, maybe slightly too far and I am sure SOE is going to give you those MINOR tweaks to help you out next x-pac.</blockquote>Given that you only care/know about things at the top-end raiding then something you should be fully aware of is that in that arena the reason why a Guard can be the juggernaught you say they are and handle the spike DMG and such as well as you say is because in that setting he does not have to be all that concerned about the aggro side of tanking. A good raid will buff the MT to achieve maximimum aggro and will also buff the rest of the raid to ensure optimal 'de-aggro' on their part. So guard can afford to max optimal use of his 'nitch'.No step outside that ideal box for a moment. To achieve even a fraction of the threat potential of an SK....A guard has to 1) take off that shield (thus pretty much negating a huge portion of surviveabiliyt) and then has to equip situational gear which has to be focused heavily on DPS and DPS oriented affects....often this also reduces our surviveability even further. 2) Be extremly picky about group construction........ end even still the DPS classes have to behave alot more than they do with an SK.While I am sure a well played SK also chooses his gear and such to optimize group performance.......he isnt required to give up a huge portion of his surviveability and he doesnt really NEED the rest of the group to be formed specifically to optimize his threat generation.So only in a few select encounters....with the ideal controlled environment is a Guard able to make use of the only advantage he has in the game. Only there does that advantage actually contribute to the success.Everywhere else its actually a liability.So while it may be true at the top-end raiding environment , that recent changes have brought the plates closer in 'balance' with a slight edge to Guardian for those really tough encounters or for when first learning a new encounter the cost was bringing them futher out of whack everywhere else. The game has other parts to it besides top-end raiding where ideal group construction is a given.

Atavax311

08-17-2009, 02:37 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i like the challenge involved with holding aggro, so i would prefer a huge nerf to Crusaders.</blockquote>The problem there is less technical, and more practical in that players of ~12 classes would not prefer the tank have the "challenge involved with holding aggro" because it would mean that they cannot burn at full throttle from the pull. And like it or not, that's a style of play that has become the norm now. Putting the toothpaste back in the tube would be a very messy proposition, and probably a hassle that SOE would rather do without.And that kind of gets to the real core of the issue, as I see it. Guardians are perfectly capable of tanking any content, but they require more specific group builds and greater cooperation on the part of the group members to do their job well. Ask most scouts or mages if they prefer a tank that requires they manage their aggro, or one that provides a virtually unlimited DPS threshold, which do you think 99% of them are going to choose?</blockquote>i agree that it would be difficult for people to get used to a world where threat wasnt a meaningless mechanic, that Crusaders's OP status has made it; and i accept that; but that doesnt mean i wouldnt prefer that they changed it.and i agree that Guardians are capable of tanking any content, but so is every other fighter, even brawlers.

RafaelSmith

08-17-2009, 02:41 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i like the challenge involved with holding aggro, so i would prefer a huge nerf to Crusaders.</blockquote>The problem there is less technical, and more practical in that players of ~12 classes would not prefer the tank have the "challenge involved with holding aggro" because it would mean that they cannot burn at full throttle from the pull. And like it or not, that's a style of play that has become the norm now. Putting the toothpaste back in the tube would be a very messy proposition, and probably a hassle that SOE would rather do without.And that kind of gets to the real core of the issue, as I see it. Guardians are perfectly capable of tanking any content, but they require more specific group builds and greater cooperation on the part of the group members to do their job well. Ask most scouts or mages if they prefer a tank that requires they manage their aggro, or one that provides a virtually unlimited DPS threshold, which do you think 99% of them are going to choose?</blockquote>i agree that it would be difficult for people to get used to a world where threat wasnt a meaningless mechanic, that Crusaders's OP status has made it; and i accept that; but that doesnt mean i wouldnt prefer that they changed it.and i agree that Guardians are capable of tanking any content, but so is every other fighter, even brawlers.</blockquote>I have witnessed just how 'spoiled' DPS classes have gotten.....both on my Guard and even on my Assassin(I admit it I much rather group with an SK MT....even newly minted level 80 ones over Guards....not gonna lie its fun being able to not care one bit about aggro and go all out on whatever target I feel like targetting)It just makes the experience of having to group with a Guard or as a Guard that much more frustrating because now your not only dealing with some broken game/class mechanics your also dealing with player perception and expectations built up over the last year or so.

Aull

08-17-2009, 03:40 PM

For me I don't think it is good practice when a fighter is able to excell in all the areas a fighter can excell at and be the absolute best in all departments at the same time. This is where sk's are currently. In all honesty the sk can tank, be great st dps, awesome aoe dps, provides decent group utility, own in PvP, and out solo any other fighter known in PvE. Currently guards can only tank and not much anything else.If sk's can have everything that they currently have then I would venture to say that a guardian being given sk single target dps and still keeping the current guard survivability would not be asking for to much. I say that because in no way will a guardian be able to compete with an sk in all departments simply because of the mechs that are involved. I think there should be some tier ratings as to how each fighter performs in tanking survival, group utility, st dps, aoe dps, soloability. This way players could understand better what fighter would be able to excell in certain areas and make choices from that. But since sk's are currently a ten in each catagory that rules out all the other fighters.

RafaelSmith

08-17-2009, 04:28 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>For me I don't think it is good practice when a fighter is able to excell in all the areas a fighter can excell at and be the absolute best in all departments at the same time. This is where sk's are currently.</blockquote>Agreed. 'nerf' is always a bad thing.......and nobody wants to ask for it let alone receive it. But stepping outside one's own class and one's own view of the current game...its clear something is a tad off with SKs.Personally I think they received too much all at the same time......bug fixes to spells, gear itemization (i.e Shard gear for crusaders...both sets are very nice and allow the classes to optimize)...and to top it off content catered for their style...and im not just talking about AE -vs- ST. The problem is with the basics of aggro....since DPS is all that is required for aggro its hard to say nerf SK DPS because its also aggro. I firmly believe they should be at the top of the fighters in terms of DPS.......but the fact that that DPS is also threat......they get 2-for-1 sorta. Diminishing returns, TSO gear and such have really closed the gap in terms of 'surviveability' so that while on paper/persona an SKs numbers are lower.....in actual practice they are good enough not to matter. I am still amazed at how often when discussing "surviveability" people fail to grasp that Guards/Zerks have to give up using shield 90% of the time whereas a Crusader does not....and even still they out-dps/aggro us.My problem is not so much that SK can do all those things well and at the same time its that everything they can do provides them a great advantage in everything from solo to raiding. By contrast a Guards raid advantage becomes a liability in low tier raiding, groups and solo.While it would be sweet to be given that kind power and diversity.......i serously doubt it would be healthy for the game to have fighters out there that can do so much with very little sacrifice. Ive already seen some of the effects of DPS classes being spoiled by grouping with SKs.

Aull

08-17-2009, 04:42 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>For me I don't think it is good practice when a fighter is able to excell in all the areas a fighter can excell at and be the absolute best in all departments at the same time. This is where sk's are currently.</blockquote>Agreed. 'nerf' is always a bad thing.......and nobody wants to ask for it let alone receive it. But stepping outside one's own class and one's own view of the current game...its clear something is a tad off with SKs.Personally I think they received too much all at the same time......bug fixes to spells, gear itemization (i.e Shard gear for crusaders...both sets are very nice and allow the classes to optimize)...and to top it off content catered for their style...and im not just talking about AE -vs- ST. The problem is with the basics of aggro....since DPS is all that is required for aggro its hard to say nerf SK DPS because its also aggro. I firmly believe they should be at the top of the fighters in terms of DPS.......but the fact that that DPS is also threat......they get 2-for-1 sorta. Diminishing returns, TSO gear and such have really closed the gap in terms of 'surviveability' so that while on paper/persona an SKs numbers are lower.....in actual practice they are good enough not to matter. I am still amazed at how often when discussing "surviveability" people fail to grasp that Guards/Zerks have to give up using shield 90% of the time whereas a Crusader does not....and even still they out-dps/aggro us.My problem is not so much that SK can do all those things well and at the same time its that everything they can do provides them a great advantage in everything from solo to raiding. By contrast a Guards raid advantage becomes a liability in low tier raiding, groups and solo.While it would be sweet to be given that kind power and diversity.......i serously doubt it would be healthy for the game to have fighters out there that can do so much with very little sacrifice. Ive already seen some of the effects of DPS classes being spoiled by grouping with SKs.</blockquote>Absolutely. If anything the two warriors should be stronger dps if duel wielding since they loose the protection of the shield.

iceband185

08-18-2009, 06:21 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess it is much easier to post after post hoping SOE for some deluded reason believes you and makes you "easy-mode" like in RoK.</blockquote>Let's pretend for a moment that anything you say makes sense and is true. You are dumb for playing an ezmode class and spreading your tears all over every fighter balance thread when/if a player of another tank class wants the same ezmode you have.Honestly though, nerf shadowknights in '10.</blockquote>Here's my issue /w this whole subject, Guard/zerker has been the top tank since eq2 came out, and now that things got levelled out, your all sorts or butt hurt about it. Simple as this, crusader has been the suck since the game launched, they FINNALY got fixed to where they can be end game raid tanks, and the guards are all crying their eyes out, guess what, the SAME thing happened in eq1, when they finnaly adressed tank equality.I have an 80 Sk, guard and pally, and guess what, all have their disctint advantages and down sides. So please, for all our sakes, stop your friggen epic whining, its not getting you anywhere.

Blu

08-18-2009, 06:48 PM

<cite>Paperninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>My biggest problem with class and balance and eq2 is this -Everybody has this mentality that if your class gets screwed you have to wait until the next expansion pack before anything is fixed. What kind of crap is that? I also play the other game (WoW gasp). If you look at their patch notes you will see major major class updates with every single patch. They are very serious and concerned about keeping classes balanced in PVE and PVP. They don't always hit the mark, but hey, at least they are always attempting to keep it balanced. I can't imagine what would happen if they said, "Oh, it's cool guyz. We're gonna fix you next expansion! Good luck the next 9 months lolz!"Sony, just get it done. Christ.</blockquote>QFT

Atavax311

08-19-2009, 01:57 AM

<cite>iceband185 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's my issue /w this whole subject, Guard/zerker has been the top tank since eq2 came out, and now that things got levelled out, your all sorts or butt hurt about it. Simple as this, crusader has been the suck since the game launched, they FINNALY got fixed to where they can be end game raid tanks, and the guards are all crying their eyes out, guess what, the SAME thing happened in eq1, when they finnaly adressed tank equality.I have an 80 Sk, guard and pally, and guess what, all have their disctint advantages and down sides. So please, for all our sakes, stop your friggen epic whining, its not getting you anywhere.</blockquote>sigh. crusaders started off as a hybrid, no? you're all [Removed for Content] because you rolled a hybrid that couldnt tank as well as a pure tank. and because of that you're claiming tank equality now that hybrids are the better then the pure tanks while having amazing dps and probably the best soloability in the game. you logic is basically that if guardians had better dps then assasins it would be good because guardians have had bad dps all these years. past status of your class does not justify being stupid over powered.

Bruener

08-19-2009, 12:44 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>iceband185 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's my issue /w this whole subject, Guard/zerker has been the top tank since eq2 came out, and now that things got levelled out, your all sorts or butt hurt about it. Simple as this, crusader has been the suck since the game launched, they FINNALY got fixed to where they can be end game raid tanks, and the guards are all crying their eyes out, guess what, the SAME thing happened in eq1, when they finnaly adressed tank equality.I have an 80 Sk, guard and pally, and guess what, all have their disctint advantages and down sides. So please, for all our sakes, stop your friggen epic whining, its not getting you anywhere.</blockquote>sigh. crusaders started off as a hybrid, no? you're all [Removed for Content] because you rolled a hybrid that couldnt tank as well as a pure tank. and because of that you're claiming tank equality now that hybrids are the better then the pure tanks while having amazing dps and probably the best soloability in the game. you logic is basically that if guardians had better dps then assasins it would be good because guardians have had bad dps all these years. past status of your class does not justify being stupid over powered.</blockquote>See, people like you just can't seem to wrap your mind around what Hybrid actually means. Hybrid means that they use both spell abilities and melee abilities to do the same job that somebody that uses just Melee abilities does. Tanks are tanks, they have different abilities and different methods in which they do it, but that is their job...to tank. SKs and Paladins use spells AND combat arts while Warriors use combat arts to do the same job. How hard is that to understand? It doesn't mean that Warriors are actual tanks while Crusaders are pseudo tanks...that is not how the game was designed and it is exactly why people like you get all hurt over the notion that you actually have to compete with people for your tank spot. If anything Guards/Paladins are the defensive oriented tanks while SKs/Zerks are the offensive tanks...something that was clearly laid out since launch.No tank is stupid OP'd atm...they fixed that after Guards got put back in line after RoK. Some tanks are better at other things than other tanks and for some reason it hurts your feelings you don't get to be the best at everything anymore. Yes, I will admit that Warriors could use a couple minor tweaks to help out with agro control. Zerkers need much better hit rate, in offensive or defensive. Guards need maybe 1 more AE to help on AE content and a lot more beef to their taunts.LoL at the age old, narrow-minded, "hybrid" argument used by people that just don't understand what it really means.

Atavax311

08-19-2009, 05:16 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, people like you just can't seem to wrap your mind around what Hybrid actually means. Hybrid means that they use both spell abilities and melee abilities to do the same job that somebody that uses just Melee abilities does. Tanks are tanks, they have different abilities and different methods in which they do it, but that is their job...to tank. SKs and Paladins use spells AND combat arts while Warriors use combat arts to do the same job. How hard is that to understand? It doesn't mean that Warriors are actual tanks while Crusaders are pseudo tanks...that is not how the game was designed and it is exactly why people like you get all hurt over the notion that you actually have to compete with people for your tank spot. If anything Guards/Paladins are the defensive oriented tanks while SKs/Zerks are the offensive tanks...something that was clearly laid out since launch.No tank is stupid OP'd atm...they fixed that after Guards got put back in line after RoK. Some tanks are better at other things than other tanks and for some reason it hurts your feelings you don't get to be the best at everything anymore. Yes, I will admit that Warriors could use a couple minor tweaks to help out with agro control. Zerkers need much better hit rate, in offensive or defensive. Guards need maybe 1 more AE to help on AE content and a lot more beef to their taunts.LoL at the age old, narrow-minded, "hybrid" argument used by people that just don't understand what it really means.</blockquote>you're so full of fail. a hybrid does not refer to the type of abillities people use. you claim crusaders are hybrids because they use spells and melee abillities. gues what, fighters use CA's and melee abillities and taunts... crusaders and brawlers are hybrids because they fill multiple roles. they are soloers, farmers, dps, and tanks. a guardian is only a tank. thats the difference between a hybrid and a pure class."for some reason it hurts your feelings you don't get to be the best at everything anymore. "you jsut further prove you dont know what you're talking about, look me up, i started this guardian after guardians were ever OP. and guardians were never the best at everything.and guardians do not needs any AE help and do not need any more beef to their taunts.

Bruener

08-19-2009, 05:42 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, people like you just can't seem to wrap your mind around what Hybrid actually means. Hybrid means that they use both spell abilities and melee abilities to do the same job that somebody that uses just Melee abilities does. Tanks are tanks, they have different abilities and different methods in which they do it, but that is their job...to tank. SKs and Paladins use spells AND combat arts while Warriors use combat arts to do the same job. How hard is that to understand? It doesn't mean that Warriors are actual tanks while Crusaders are pseudo tanks...that is not how the game was designed and it is exactly why people like you get all hurt over the notion that you actually have to compete with people for your tank spot. If anything Guards/Paladins are the defensive oriented tanks while SKs/Zerks are the offensive tanks...something that was clearly laid out since launch.No tank is stupid OP'd atm...they fixed that after Guards got put back in line after RoK. Some tanks are better at other things than other tanks and for some reason it hurts your feelings you don't get to be the best at everything anymore. Yes, I will admit that Warriors could use a couple minor tweaks to help out with agro control. Zerkers need much better hit rate, in offensive or defensive. Guards need maybe 1 more AE to help on AE content and a lot more beef to their taunts.LoL at the age old, narrow-minded, "hybrid" argument used by people that just don't understand what it really means.</blockquote>you're so full of fail. a hybrid does not refer to the type of abillities people use. you claim crusaders are hybrids because they use spells and melee abillities. gues what, fighters use CA's and melee abillities and taunts... crusaders and brawlers are hybrids because they fill multiple roles. they are soloers, farmers, dps, and tanks. a guardian is only a tank. thats the difference between a hybrid and a pure class."for some reason it hurts your feelings you don't get to be the best at everything anymore. "you jsut further prove you dont know what you're talking about, look me up, i started this guardian after guardians were ever OP. and guardians were never the best at everything.and guardians do not needs any AE help and do not need any more beef to their taunts.</blockquote>Ok, I am sorry. My bad...so you are a complete noobie when it comes to understanding Guards...thank goodness, it explains all the misconceptions and crap you seem to spew all over these forums. Go play for a couple years and come back than maybe somebody will actually take a minute to try and understand what you post. Better yet why don't you start posting some non-sense about short-busses again.Hybrid in EQ2 means using both spells and melee. Hence Bards are hybrids as well since they have both spells and melee attacks. Being a noob is only going to excuse so far for these totally off-base opinions that you keep posting. The Guard community themselves have posted quite a bit of disgust with the lines of thought you seem to follow.Just because you want something to be so is not going to make it happen. Warriors/Crusaders/Brawlersare all tanks...with different strengths and weaknesses....and almost every single person playing them will tell you the same thing, excepting maybe a deluded part of the Brawler community.Is this guy for serious? Is this really the guy the Guard community likes to speak for them? Sad.

Atavax311

08-19-2009, 06:06 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, I am sorry. My bad...so you are a complete noobie when it comes to understanding Guards...thank goodness, it explains all the misconceptions and crap you seem to spew all over these forums. Go play for a couple years and come back than maybe somebody will actually take a minute to try and understand what you post. Better yet why don't you start posting some non-sense about short-busses again.Hybrid in EQ2 means using both spells and melee. Hence Bards are hybrids as well since they have both spells and melee attacks. Being a noob is only going to excuse so far for these totally off-base opinions that you keep posting. The Guard community themselves have posted quite a bit of disgust with the lines of thought you seem to follow.Just because you want something to be so is not going to make it happen. Warriors/Crusaders/Brawlersare all tanks...with different strengths and weaknesses....and almost every single person playing them will tell you the same thing, excepting maybe a deluded part of the Brawler community.Is this guy for serious? Is this really the guy the Guard community likes to speak for them? Sad.</blockquote>when i have talked to people in eq2 they have used my same definition of hybrid. you are not the know all be all of eq2 that gets to dictate definitions of words while talking about eq2. but fine, if you think hybrid only describes the types of abillities used, and not the roles they fit in.crusaders and brawlers fit multiple roles. it is not balanced when crusaders are one of the best soloers, farmers, and tanks; while other tanks, are just tanks.i agree there are differences between each tank, the fact there are differences does not make it balanced. every person i've talked to who doesnt have a SK thinks they are OP. everyone. and even half the sk's i talk to think they're OP. i can understand you wanting to protect your Overpower status because you like being ontop, but enough is enough.and i never claimed to represent anyone.you are so smart and wise, please tell me again how im just mad because i lost my OP status that my class lost well before i ever rolled my class? oh thats right, you dont know what you're talking about and you're full of BS.

Rahatmattata

08-19-2009, 06:17 PM

<cite>iceband185 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's my issue /w this whole subject, Guard/zerker has been the top tank since eq2 came out, and now that things got levelled out, your all sorts or butt hurt about it. Simple as this, crusader has been the suck since the game launched, they FINNALY got fixed to where they can be end game raid tanks, and the guards are all crying their eyes out, guess what, the SAME thing happened in eq1, when they finnaly adressed tank equality.I have an 80 Sk, guard and pally, and guess what, all have their disctint advantages and down sides. So please, for all our sakes, stop your friggen epic whining, its not getting you anywhere.</blockquote>Nothing is leveld out. Nerf shadowknights kkthx.

LygerT

08-19-2009, 06:24 PM

will the L2P comments from Breuner ever stop? we think not.

Bruener

08-19-2009, 10:30 PM

<cite>Lygerr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>will the L2P comments from Breuner ever stop? we think not.</blockquote>When will Lygerr learn how to read? Oh wait, he just sees my name and trolls into the thread even though he probably doesn't even know what is being discussed. /Thumbs to you man. Go back to playing your healer.

Atavax311

08-20-2009, 12:06 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lygerr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>will the L2P comments from Breuner ever stop? we think not.</blockquote>When will Lygerr learn how to read?</blockquote>ouch man, you got him good; wow! BURN!!! What 5 year old did you have to sleep with to get that quality insult?

RafaelSmith

08-20-2009, 12:54 AM

Did <cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>iceband185 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's my issue /w this whole subject, Guard/zerker has been the top tank since eq2 came out, and now that things got levelled out, your all sorts or butt hurt about it. Simple as this, crusader has been the suck since the game launched, they FINNALY got fixed to where they can be end game raid tanks, and the guards are all crying their eyes out, guess what, the SAME thing happened in eq1, when they finnaly adressed tank equality.I have an 80 Sk, guard and pally, and guess what, all have their disctint advantages and down sides. So please, for all our sakes, stop your friggen epic whining, its not getting you anywhere.</blockquote>sigh. crusaders started off as a hybrid, no? you're all [Removed for Content] because you rolled a hybrid that couldnt tank as well as a pure tank. and because of that you're claiming tank equality now that hybrids are the better then the pure tanks while having amazing dps and probably the best soloability in the game. you logic is basically that if guardians had better dps then assasins it would be good because guardians have had bad dps all these years. past status of your class does not justify being stupid over powered.</blockquote>See, people like you just can't seem to wrap your mind around what Hybrid actually means. Hybrid means that they use both spell abilities and melee abilities to do the same job that somebody that uses just Melee abilities does. Tanks are tanks, they have different abilities and different methods in which they do it, but that is their job...to tank. SKs and Paladins use spells AND combat arts while Warriors use combat arts to do the same job. How hard is that to understand? It doesn't mean that Warriors are actual tanks while Crusaders are pseudo tanks...that is not how the game was designed and it is exactly why people like you get all hurt over the notion that you actually have to compete with people for your tank spot. If anything Guards/Paladins are the defensive oriented tanks while SKs/Zerks are the offensive tanks...something that was clearly laid out since launch.No tank is stupid OP'd atm...they fixed that after Guards got put back in line after RoK. Some tanks are better at other things than other tanks and for some reason it hurts your feelings you don't get to be the best at everything anymore. Yes, I will admit that Warriors could use a couple minor tweaks to help out with agro control. Zerkers need much better hit rate, in offensive or defensive. Guards need maybe 1 more AE to help on AE content and a lot more beef to their taunts.LoL at the age old, narrow-minded, "hybrid" argument used by people that just don't understand what it really means.</blockquote>Did your mother not let you suck her [Removed for Content] enough when you were a child?

LygerT

08-20-2009, 01:41 AM

oh, my response was so immature.. heh.reading through i could only stomach it a few times when a valid argument from one side turned to a "learn to play" comment. but i'm the one who is acting like a child.

Maamadex

08-20-2009, 03:55 AM

What on earth is going on in this thread? The more I read the more I feel my IQ dropping, it's like a matter of time before it gets locked. As for you Atavax311, not sure what to say to you. You seem very bitter. Maybe play a different game?

Atavax311

08-20-2009, 05:01 AM

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>What on earth is going on in this thread? The more I read the more I feel my IQ dropping, it's like a matter of time before it gets locked. As for you Atavax311, not sure what to say to you. You seem very bitter. Maybe play a different game?</blockquote>i dont know what gave you the impression that im bitter; people that know me would say quite the oppositte :p maybe its my lack of initimidation from people like breuner trying to scare off people that disagree with him by throwing personal attacks at them.btw, breuner, yes, lots of healers say Guardians are not easier to heal, you counter that they need to be with better Guardians. What do you think the Guardians they're grouping with arent doing? do you know the class at all, or are you just full of bullsh*t, qqing about a class you know nothing about?

Bruener

08-20-2009, 10:36 AM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>What on earth is going on in this thread? The more I read the more I feel my IQ dropping, it's like a matter of time before it gets locked. As for you Atavax311, not sure what to say to you. You seem very bitter. Maybe play a different game?</blockquote>i dont know what gave you the impression that im bitter; people that know me would say quite the oppositte :p maybe its my lack of initimidation from people like breuner trying to scare off people that disagree with him by throwing personal attacks at them.btw, breuner, yes, lots of healers say Guardians are not easier to heal, you counter that they need to be with better Guardians. What do you think the Guardians they're grouping with arent doing? do you know the class at all, or are you just full of bullsh*t, qqing about a class you know nothing about?</blockquote>You have 1 healer post that he thinks it is easier to heal a Guard and suddenly it is written in stone. Funny because all of my guilds MT healers will agree that it is easier to keep a Guard up. Oh wait, 99% of top raiding guilds will all tell you the same thing.But wait, I forgot your Guard is new....excuse you again. You know you can't be happy with your class and raging jealous of other classes at the same time, no matter how much you say it. The truth is you are not happy with your class and you envy the agro control Crusaders have. Its alright you can say it....that is the first step to recovery. Once you admit that maybe you can actually start posting some useful information on what you think Guards need. Hence some of your buddies have already done with mentioning slightly more AE agro, maybe the DA line restored to the amount of DA it had before, greater taunts, or tagging taunts on more CAs.Why don't you try to be the solution instead of just making problems and gettnig threads shut down.

RafaelSmith

08-20-2009, 11:16 AM

Assumming equal level gear....then yes on a hit per hit bases a Guard should be easier to heal than an SK....end even then it only applies to mobs high enough and hard enough where every every bit you can push into diminishing returns actually matters. Thats not the case for instance mobs and most low-mid tier raid mobs....which is exactly the area of the game where fighters are not balanced.But you have to look at the whole picture. A Tank that can lock aggro down and finish an encounter or instance in a fraction time compared to another is going to be "easier" to heal.Guardian "nitch", "advantage", "specialty" or whatever you choose to call it is too situational to warrant it being our only variable in fighter balance.The only healers i know that prefer running a group with a Guard -vs- an SK are the ones that like the hectic challenge of a slow run, and not just keeping the MT alive but also all the others in the group that end up with aggro.

Atavax311

08-20-2009, 01:26 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>What on earth is going on in this thread? The more I read the more I feel my IQ dropping, it's like a matter of time before it gets locked. As for you Atavax311, not sure what to say to you. You seem very bitter. Maybe play a different game?</blockquote>i dont know what gave you the impression that im bitter; people that know me would say quite the oppositte :p maybe its my lack of initimidation from people like breuner trying to scare off people that disagree with him by throwing personal attacks at them.btw, breuner, yes, lots of healers say Guardians are not easier to heal, you counter that they need to be with better Guardians. What do you think the Guardians they're grouping with arent doing? do you know the class at all, or are you just full of bullsh*t, qqing about a class you know nothing about?</blockquote>You have 1 healer post that he thinks it is easier to heal a Guard and suddenly it is written in stone. Funny because all of my guilds MT healers will agree that it is easier to keep a Guard up. Oh wait, 99% of top raiding guilds will all tell you the same thing.But wait, I forgot your Guard is new....excuse you again. You know you can't be happy with your class and raging jealous of other classes at the same time, no matter how much you say it. The truth is you are not happy with your class and you envy the agro control Crusaders have. Its alright you can say it....that is the first step to recovery. Once you admit that maybe you can actually start posting some useful information on what you think Guards need. Hence some of your buddies have already done with mentioning slightly more AE agro, maybe the DA line restored to the amount of DA it had before, greater taunts, or tagging taunts on more CAs.Why don't you try to be the solution instead of just making problems and gettnig threads shut down.</blockquote>still avoiding the question i see.Throwing personal attacks instead of answering it. here, let me repeat it.what did you mean when you said " they need to be with better Guardians." What do you think the Guardians they're grouping with arent doing? do you know the class at all, or are you just full of bullsh*t, qqing about a class you know nothing about?yes, you know me so well, first im upset because i am no longer on top, when i rolled my guardian long after guardians were ontop, and now im raving jealous of a class that doesnt need to work to hold aggro. why dont you stop with your bs persoanl attacks? because its the only thing you can do to distract people from the fact that SK's are OP and need a nerf.i am not claiming that Crusaders 100% of the time have better survivability then equally geared/skilled guardians. There are situations where an equally geared/skilled crusader does have better survivability though.the solution isnt easy mode aggro for all. the solution isnt making tanking into some bland POS subclass that any person fresh out the womb can play well. i play mmo's to tank, not to have aggro handed to me.

Aull

08-20-2009, 02:09 PM

I feel the reason sk's are so powerful this expansion is because sk's were not as horrible as lead to believe back in rok. Sure they had issues but what fighter or class didn't at that time or even now for that matter. They did get boosted which helped in areas that sk's did lack in. However this boost sk's did get has made novice players look as if they have been raid tanking for years where other fighters absolutely have to work at just to be effective.I think guardians right fully deserved the raid toughness they had in rok cause in any other dept the average guardian will not measure up in dps, soloing, and aggro. Problem is if any fighter receives any type of boost the other fighters start yelling.If anything no fighter needs to be the "Alpha and Omgea" in all areas of tanking envolvement, but each should be known for a specific speciality.My sk is/was fun to play but I don't anymore because of the over abundant sk popluation turns me off. Bruisers should be placed on the endangered class list cause their numbers are super low when comparing to the other fighters. Non-mythed zerkers are a some what a joke and need to be brought back in line for aoe prowess when compairing them to non mythed crusaders.Lots needs to be re-aligned.

Wasuna

08-20-2009, 02:52 PM

Guardian's aren't easy to heal becasue they are DWing in Offensive trying deperatly to keep agro. I Guarantee you my Surviveability is MUCH less, My Tanking ability is MUCH less when DWing in Offense. The only reason I do that is to try and meet the expectations that the current SK has instilled in all the DPS classes about how a tank should hold agro.In the end, Guardians can tank just fine. The problem is tanking requires agro and Guadrains DO NOT GENERATE AGRO. If a Guardian does not have agro then ALL ELSE IS IRREVELANT. That is the same for all tanks so you can't disagree with it. Guardians have to have a completley stacked group (Dirge, Corercer, Assasin ... etc) to even hope to keep agro. If you have a Warlock in group just give them a repair kit before you start.SK's can run up, agro a group and AOE Lifetap and have locked solid agro for the rest of the fight while healing themselves and maximizing their survivability. I know this for a fact since I have a Troubador also and I see it all the time with the massive number of SK tanks that are out there.Then, in a tough fight, the SK just pops the two magic buttons. Death March and Grave Sacrament. DPS shoots through the roof and agro is locked or ripped, whatever the case may be.I'm happy that SK's are curreently enjoying the game. I would be if I were an SK. In the end, any SK that believes that their abilities are not Over Powered is not being honest. If that is the new definition of a tank then give magic buttons to my Guardian please.

thial

08-20-2009, 04:51 PM

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>What on earth is going on in this thread? The more I read the more I feel my IQ dropping, it's like a matter of time before it gets locked.</blockquote>Do you really think any devs read the fighter forums? Please show me the last dev post in any of the fighter threads than compare it to how mamy times they post in the other threads....edit i stand corected there some red from the past two days!

Atavax311

08-20-2009, 05:21 PM

a forum administrator is not a dev... or at least i hope soe isnt making devs responsable to forum upkeep too.

Aull

08-20-2009, 05:39 PM

I have been hearing of a group consisting of an sk, coerecer, troubador, illy, warlock, and swashbuckler actually doing tso instances without having a healer. The dps was so massive that the sk's own heals were enough to keep him up while the mobs just melted.Of course these are tso raid geared players but no avatar loot...yet.I have no proof that it actually happened but just what I have been hearing.Anyone else heard of such or even done it?

Blu

08-20-2009, 05:54 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>What on earth is going on in this thread? The more I read the more I feel my IQ dropping, it's like a matter of time before it gets locked.</blockquote>Do you really think any devs read the fighter forums? Please show me the last dev post in any of the fighter threads than compare it to how mamy times they post in the other threads....edit i stand corected there some red from the past two days!</blockquote>Kiara locking a thread doesn't count as dev visitation. Otherwise the brawler forums would probably be some of the most popular places for devs to hang out. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And we already know it pretty much is the opposite of that.

BChizzle

08-20-2009, 06:27 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>a forum administrator is not a dev... or at least i hope soe isnt making devs responsable to forum upkeep too.</blockquote>Kiara is way too good and overqualified to be a dev for SOE anyways.

Rahatmattata

08-20-2009, 11:40 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you really think any devs read the fighter forums? Please show me the last dev post in any of the fighter threads than compare it to how mamy times they post in the other threads....</blockquote><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=456942" target="_blank">Idk, but at least Aerilik is keeping an eye on his assassins.</a>Actually a quick <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/search/search.m?clean=1&query=&keywordType=&searchTerms=all&author=Aeralik&userType=&exactMatch=true&forumId=&sortBy=time&sortDir=DESC&categoryId=&postTime=" target="_blank">search</a> shows that he posts in other class threads... just not the guardian boards since he told us nerf inc! a year ago. I probably wouldn't show my face on the guard boards either though, if I was the guy responsible for fing everything up.At least in KoS - RoK we could use a buckler. Now we have to fing DW.

LygerT

08-21-2009, 03:00 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have been hearing of a group consisting of an sk, coerecer, troubador, illy, warlock, and swashbuckler actually doing tso instances without having a healer. The dps was so massive that the sk's own heals were enough to keep him up while the mobs just melted.Of course these are tso raid geared players but no avatar loot...yet.I have no proof that it actually happened but just what I have been hearing.Anyone else heard of such or even done it?</blockquote>our SK was doing that 2 months after TSO launched, i was feeling sick just watching it. one of the many reasons i just couldn't stand to watch the fighter revamp unfold, SK aggro go through the roof and lack of utility needed in order to do a simple job. those are all fact, nothing "l2p" about it.

Haze

08-21-2009, 12:36 PM

eh? I've tanked "most" of the tso stuff with my zerker (in offense / dw btw). Who needs guardians?

Nero

08-21-2009, 03:19 PM

Please let me know if you know.I think that the previous producer promised 2ways communication about fighter class balance at Producer's Letter, March 2009.<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/news_archive_content.vm?month=032009&id=3016">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...=032009&id=3016</a>But no rumor about 2ways communication for 5months.What happened about 2ways communication?Was it abandoned?Or is it still being created?If 2ways communication doesn't actually succeed, for what do class forums exist?

Aull

08-21-2009, 05:50 PM

These forums have a huge lack of respect among the players that post here and it also bleeds over to the devs. If I was a dev I would never post in any forum that imitated these forums.To many threads are locked because to this.

Atavax311

08-21-2009, 06:37 PM

i think the largest problem is the hate mod buffs and transfers. how is it gonna be possible to create tanking that is close to what people want when these hate mod and transfers dps classes give effect our hate so drastically. you cant have aggro challenging, but doable without hate buffs and have it not easy mode with hate buffs. and you cant have it challenging, but doable with hate buffs without making it too hard without hate buffs. the same time they fix fighters, every hate buff in the game should have its effectiveness halved.

Atavax311

08-21-2009, 06:38 PM

Aull

08-21-2009, 06:47 PM

I was just stating what/how I would be and the disrespect is not from the devs side but the people posting. I also do not answer for the devs.I do appreciate many of you that do post in these forums cause your info is good. Others however do not know when to call it good.Anyway I am de-railing this thread.....Isn't that odd....

Blu

08-21-2009, 06:47 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>These forums have a huge lack of respect among the players that post here and it also bleeds over to the devs. If I was a dev I would never post in any forum that imitated these forums.To many threads are locked because to this.</blockquote>Edit: If a dev had posted in this forum and said. "Hey, we know fighters have real balance issues right now, and we're working to fix them ASAP! Expect to see some temporary fixes in the next hotfix, with permanent fixes in the next GU. I'll keep you posted about what we do." To that, 99% of us would been singing that dev's praises. There are some people who will always gripe, but they are ignorable. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If your main was an SK, enchanter, or bard, you'd probably have almost nothing but good to say about the state that SOE has EQ2 in. I don't mind giving kudos where they are due. They are not due from 3-4 of 6 fighter classes.I've come to realize that these kinds of problems going unaddressed so long is not the fault of the devs. Devs make mistakes, introduce bugs when they change things, etc.... it's just the nature of the beast. But management is responsible for prioritizing dev tasks (e.g. fixes). If management lights a fire under the devs about something, we will see it on live servers quickly. Therefore, SOE management is responsible for fighters being so imbalanced (for a very long time for some of us). It seems like they are worried too much about dollar signs (e.g. station cash) and too little about user satisfaction (e.g. brawler/guard problems).

Aull

08-21-2009, 07:27 PM

<cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>These forums have a huge lack of respect among the players that post here and it also bleeds over to the devs. If I was a dev I would never post in any forum that imitated these forums.To many threads are locked because to this.</blockquote>Edit: If a dev had posted in this forum and said. "Hey, we know fighters have real balance issues right now, and we're working to fix them ASAP! Expect to see some temporary fixes in the next hotfix, with permanent fixes in the next GU. I'll keep you posted about what we do." To that, 99% of us would been singing that dev's praises. There are some people who will always gripe, but they are ignorable. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />If your main was an SK, enchanter, or bard, you'd probably have almost nothing but good to say about the state that SOE has EQ2 in. I don't mind giving kudos where they are due. They are not due from 3-4 of 6 fighter classes.I've come to realize that these kinds of problems going unaddressed so long is not the fault of the devs. Devs make mistakes, introduce bugs when they change things, etc.... it's just the nature of the beast. But management is responsible for prioritizing dev tasks (e.g. fixes). If management lights a fire under the devs about something, we will see it on live servers quickly. Therefore, SOE management is responsible for fighters being so imbalanced (for a very long time for some of us). It seems like they are worried too much about dollar signs (e.g. station cash) and too little about user satisfaction (e.g. brawler/guard problems).</blockquote>I see your point.

Atavax311

08-21-2009, 08:01 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was just stating what/how I would be and the disrespect is not from the devs side but the people posting. I also do not answer for the devs.I do appreciate many of you that do post in these forums cause your info is good. Others however do not know when to call it good.Anyway I am de-railing this thread.....Isn't that odd....</blockquote>i understand what you were saying, and im saying that a dev that would behave anything like how you describe would be an extremely unproffesional dev.

Aull

08-21-2009, 08:40 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was just stating what/how I would be and the disrespect is not from the devs side but the people posting. I also do not answer for the devs.I do appreciate many of you that do post in these forums cause your info is good. Others however do not know when to call it good.Anyway I am de-railing this thread.....Isn't that odd....</blockquote>i understand what you were saying, and im saying that a dev that would behave anything like how you describe would be an extremely unproffesional dev.</blockquote>LOL. Yeah I would make a lousy dev wouldn't I. In all reality I would like an official/dev to post something similar to what Xerq posted. I have looked at the other general class discussions and they are dead compaired to the general fighter discussion. So lots of players are looking to see what possible benefits will come to the fighters.

Aule

08-22-2009, 04:48 PM

<cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your main was an SK, enchanter, or bard, you'd probably have almost nothing but good to say about the state that SOE has EQ2 in. I don't mind giving kudos where they are due. They are not due from 3-4 of 6 fighter classes.I've come to realize that these kinds of problems going unaddressed so long is not the fault of the devs. Devs make mistakes, introduce bugs when they change things, etc.... it's just the nature of the beast. But management is responsible for prioritizing dev tasks (e.g. fixes). If management lights a fire under the devs about something, we will see it on live servers quickly. Therefore, SOE management is responsible for fighters being so imbalanced (for a very long time for some of us). It seems like they are worried too much about dollar signs (e.g. station cash) and too little about user satisfaction (e.g. brawler/guard problems).</blockquote>My main is enchanter and I still have nothing good to say about the state that SOE has EQ2 in.Itemization has just gone downhill since 30 minutes into ROK when I started replacing fabled 70 raid gear with 71 treasured drops out of Kylong Plains. Mudflation occurs every expansion, but the only explanation I can come up with for the TSO loot is that Fireflyte used to be a Monty Haul DM.On top of that, the progression track excludes a huge portion of the guilds out there from being able to clear even one zone.So many people I know are reporting that they're bored with the game, have no expectation of any positive changes occurring before Sentinel's Fate, and are uncertain if they're going to keep playing. More than anything else I have to attribute this to bad itemization. How can it possibly make sense that a swash wearing Zarrakon's bangle of blood symphony can top the heal parse or that curing detrimental effects is more important than healing?Then you throw in all the other issues regarding class imbalances and the two way communication from the dev's that was promised to us so approaching zero as to be indistinguishable and well, yeah, I've got nothing good to say.

iceband185

08-23-2009, 09:11 AM

Heres what it all boils down too...Back in ROK, I levelled my SK to 80, did the raids, and got the fabled loot. One day a group was spamming for a tank, so I offered, well so happens the guard that they did have tanking came back...he was 2 levels lower in MC gear...well, quite a pickle right, weve got a full fabled, level 80 tank and a 78 guard in relativly crap gear, what are we to do right? The grp leader wanted the GUARD to tank..because and I quote "their the best tank"This isnt the truth any more, now it boils down to whos gear really is better, whos a better player, whos got the experience in the zone/mob, CA's spells and grp setups...This fact has all you guards who were used to be the "top dawg" whether you were the poo or not are crying your little eyes out, its really transparant.Are their issues with tanks, yes, there is, do I think guards need some more AOE aggro holding, yes, do I think defensive stances (across ALL) classes needs to mean something, hell yes.Do I think that leather tanks are completly borked, tbh yes, I retired my 70 monk pre ROK and havent looked back.So heres an idea, instead of coming on the forums and crying like a little girl, and whining ZOMG NERF, try advocating to fix whats wrong with YOUR class, instead of trying to get everything nerfed down.

Rahatmattata

08-23-2009, 12:22 PM

<cite>iceband185 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heres what it all boils down too...Back in ROK, I levelled my SK to 80, did the raids, and got the fabled loot. One day a group was spamming for a tank, so I offered, well so happens the guard that they did have tanking came back...he was 2 levels lower in MC gear...well, quite a pickle right, weve got a full fabled, level 80 tank and a 78 guard in relativly crap gear, what are we to do right? The grp leader wanted the GUARD to tank..because and I quote "their the best tank"And today it's the opposite. Who cares about RoK? We are months into TSO now.So heres an idea, instead of coming on the forums and crying like a little girl, and whining ZOMG NERF, try advocating to fix whats wrong with YOUR class, instead of trying to get everything nerfed down.It's all been hashed out and pretty much everything has been said. Now it comes down to just repeating the same things over and over. SKs need a nerfing and if you want to call that QQing go ahead, but it makes it no less true.</blockquote>

iceband185

08-23-2009, 02:46 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>iceband185 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Heres what it all boils down too...Back in ROK, I levelled my SK to 80, did the raids, and got the fabled loot. One day a group was spamming for a tank, so I offered, well so happens the guard that they did have tanking came back...he was 2 levels lower in MC gear...well, quite a pickle right, weve got a full fabled, level 80 tank and a 78 guard in relativly crap gear, what are we to do right? The grp leader wanted the GUARD to tank..because and I quote "their the best tank"And today it's the opposite. Who cares about RoK? We are months into TSO now.actually its not, the better geared, better skilled tank tends to be...the tank now, vesus the way it was, and the way you little whiney 12 year olds want it to be again, just being honest.So heres an idea, instead of coming on the forums and crying like a little girl, and whining ZOMG NERF, try advocating to fix whats wrong with YOUR class, instead of trying to get everything nerfed down.It's all been hashed out and pretty much everything has been said. Now it comes down to just repeating the same things over and over. SKs need a nerfing and if you want to call that QQing go ahead, but it makes it no less true.I call an ace an ace and a spade a spade, why do I think its crying...because it is.</blockquote></blockquote>

Aull

08-23-2009, 03:16 PM

I do believe that many all fighters have made viable cases in what needs to be addressed in order to get them back on par.I have an sk as well. I personally didn't see anything horrifically wrong with the sk back in ROK that other fighters didn't already content with. Guards back then still had aggro issues as they have now in tso and so did zerkers. Monks had some appeal in versitility. Brusiers had the least appeal of all fighters.Sk's had huge potential in ROK but the content didn't really allow it to show. Tso content would have made sk's without any boosting shine but with the content and the boosts sk's did receive is what has made sk's appear so strong. Other fighters just do not shine in all the catagories like sk's do now.

Rahatmattata

08-23-2009, 05:12 PM

<cite>iceband185 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>iceband185 wrote:</cite><blockquote>And today it's the opposite. Who cares about RoK? We are months into TSO now.actually its not, the better geared, better skilled tank tends to be...the tank now, vesus the way it was, and the way you little whiney 12 year olds want it to be again, just being honest.No, if you are joining a pug and noone knows who you are, a guardian is the last plate tank they will take. I can't speak for 12 year old whiny kids, but I just want some kind of balance. I want a reason to play my guardian and to be invited to groups when there is another tank /lfg also. Not, "well crap there is a guard and monk lfg... get the guard I guess." I don't know what you mean by "the way it used to be" tbh, because the only OP fighter in RoK was guardians with mythical epic.... the rest of us were using bucklers, or using a tower shield and not holding aggro. I'm not interested in being OP or playing an OP class, or I'd roll a shadowknight and be level 80 in 2 weeks.</blockquote><blockquote>It's all been hashed out and pretty much everything has been said. Now it comes down to just repeating the same things over and over. SKs need a nerfing and if you want to call that QQing go ahead, but it makes it no less true.I call an ace an ace and a spade a spade, why do I think its crying...because it is.The only QQ I see are shadowknights getting butt hurt when people point out the fact that they are OP.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

Nuhus

08-23-2009, 06:10 PM

All tanks will be mindless taunt bots soon enough. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Yimway

08-24-2009, 01:53 AM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>All tanks will be mindless taunt bots soon enough. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Truth.

Blu

08-24-2009, 12:49 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>My main is enchanter and I still have nothing good to say about the state that SOE has EQ2 in.Itemization has just gone downhill since 30 minutes into ROK when I started replacing fabled 70 raid gear with 71 treasured drops out of Kylong Plains. Mudflation occurs every expansion, but the only explanation I can come up with for the TSO loot is that Fireflyte used to be a Monty Haul DM.On top of that, the progression track excludes a huge portion of the guilds out there from being able to clear even one zone.So many people I know are reporting that they're bored with the game, have no expectation of any positive changes occurring before Sentinel's Fate, and are uncertain if they're going to keep playing. More than anything else I have to attribute this to bad itemization. How can it possibly make sense that a swash wearing Zarrakon's bangle of blood symphony can top the heal parse or that curing detrimental effects is more important than healing?Then you throw in all the other issues regarding class imbalances and the two way communication from the dev's that was promised to us so approaching zero as to be indistinguishable and well, yeah, I've got nothing good to say.</blockquote>My comment for enchanters and bards was targeted at their obvious desirability for raids and groups. Since you usually want 1 of each in each group. As a monk, it would be a dream come true if I was even as desirable as a Pally for tanking or Brig for dps/utility. ("As desirable", NOT "desired for the same reasons".)There are certainly other issues at work than class balance, but right now for fighters, I think class balance is the one that sticks out the most.Getting bored with the game is a different subject entirely. People get bored for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that they've experienced "all" or "enough" of the content, or not knowing how / desiring to find new experiences in the game. When you get bored and you can't find new experiences in the game (maybe you don't want to play an alt or they are all level 80/200AA/myth/t4 or you don't want to look for raids or you've raided all the content out there or whatever), best thing to do is take a break.