Difficulty in TSO Instances: Just a LITTLE out of Whack [Archive]

Dreyco

08-06-2009, 11:59 PM

My Shadowknight is 80.He has over 140 AA Points.I got him tier 1 Shard Gear by going through the zones with my mythical'ed assassin.He has full high 70's Legendary Jewelry (including cloak and waist item).He has his epic.He has a legendary tower shield.He is fully Adept III'd.I take a group into Befallen (The second zone). The healer in the group is fully experted with master heals and fabled gear.All the trash dies with extreme speed. I'm holding agro off a mythicalled coercer, necromancer, and warlock.We pull the supposed "easiest" named mob in that zone (The tank and spank one).I get two rounded by him.I adjust my strategy. Use divine aura. His attacks somehow penetrate that and kill me anyway. (Yes, this is while i'm getting cured by the ghost.)All tactics I see to employ? Two rounded. Every time we try something different? Two rounded.........Something seems a little out of whack. He's wearing gear FROM the expansion... has an ideal setup as a tank... and i'm still getting my scaled rear end handed to me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />. And this isn't just with this zone. We went to the Veksar zone that was implemented BEFORE TSO was released, and I was near killed by most named mobs time and time again, until we made the group that mysterious "ideal", and even then, some of the named goblins were completely flattening me.It's bad enough that I felt like I had to go and get gear from this expansion (Full tier 1 shard gear) to tank it. It's worse to think that in order to now do it efficiently, i'm going to have to grind out tier 2 shard gear just so I don't get two rounded by mobs.And that's just... a little ridiculous. Not to sound irate, but with this current setup, I should be able to survive more than two hits from the mob. And this is in one of the easier zones. I can only imagine what Guk would be like if I ever were to attempt it.I understand the concept of "Challenge". I understand the concept of "Making things difficult". What I don't understand is this "Must have perfect geared tank." "Must have perfect ideal group". Players like myself don't have access to that all the time.So are we just singled out?I've tried to look for gear that is perhaps better, and most of what i'd need is from the TSO Zones (That seems a little counterproductive).I've been told that "Well, in order to do this and this, you need to have Class A, B, C, or D, or else it isn't possible." (That seems a little out of reach of those of us who try to play in smaller guilds.)I've been told that I need to grey grind shards so that i'm better suited for the zones. Well, doesn't that defeat the purpose of doing them the right way?I've been told that I need to then grind out more shards on my assassin... so that means all tanks will have to have level 80 alts to be able to get their hands on stuff that makes it plausable to go through it?I have some wonderfully supportive friends. One of which plays a tank, and told me that it's a long road for a tank to become viable in these zones. I know it's not impossible, but i'm at a point where I feel that the challenge level is just too high.You should not have to have gear from that expansion to tank that expansion in the earliest levels of difficulty. That seems to be the way things are, and I think that's just a little screwy, if you ask me.

Noaani

08-07-2009, 02:03 AM

Since I was tanking these zones on a similarly geared guardian 6 months ago without issue, and since the zones have not been altered, I'm going to assume you guys were doing something wrong.It may be that the "high 70's legendary jewelery" that you have does not have defensive stats on it, it may be that the healer wasn't buffing you, or that you were not buffing yourself, but I can guarentee you that this is not an issue of content or itemization.

Rijacki

08-07-2009, 03:43 AM

The group in question: 1 fury, 1 coercer (me), 1 necromancer, 1 wizard, 1 shadowknight (Dreyco's other him).Missing? a dirge or another healer would have made A huge difference. Even a troubador or a melee fighter in place of the wizard or necro. (almost that same exact group, with the exception of the wizard, were the ones in Veksar.. struggling until the dirge was free to join us.. and brought along a swash 2-boxed.. and we did phenominally better)It's not a "perfect" group that's needed, but on all but the very easiest (and this one isn't) or without everyone being in full raid gear, a FULL group with a little attention to buff/class interaction can be handy.Yes, I understand the "real" casuals* are more likely to take catch-as-catch can from a group of friends (and our group would have possibly had a dirge if she hadn't been working on getting an epic update) and that might not equate to better group make up (and nearly always far from an "ideal"), but it doesn't make any of these zones impossible, just a whole heck of a lot more challenging.(* "real" casuals: in other words, my opinion isn't worth squat 'cause I have raided and still raid from time to time.. and I -do- play the mechanics side of the game.. not to the ultra min/max, but only 'cause I -choose- not to go that extreme)Adding roadblocks, impediments, and extra difficulties to over come (one healer and/or no dirge, 4-5 in the group in a zone intended for a FULL group, etc) and then calling it impossible is, in my opinion, really short sighted.Can so-called "real" casuals ever complete the zones like the fully fabled raiders (i.e. partial groups, single healer also dpsing, etc)? No. nor should they.Is it harder for "tanks" to be well equipped for TSO instances? probably a lot harder than for any other class because, yes, stuff hits VERY hard. BUT, that difficulty can be mitigated by having 2 healers instead of 1, having a dirge (stoneskin ftw), using potions or other means to bolster, etc.Should players feel like they have to abandon their small guilds (I am in the same guild Dreyco is.. 100% out of choice)? No. But they may need to expand out of -only- guild groups if they want to more challenging content.. and even go outside of their circle of pre-existing friends. Who knows, they might even meet more new friends.I jsut finished up on a WoE semi-pickup raid with a completely different guild. The very first night my coercer was on AB (after moving her from Guk), I had been asked out of the blue to join that a bunch led by the same leaders as tonight's. I'd never met him before or, really, any in their sorta almost regular raids (regular is stretching the definition a bit). I said yes, on a whim, and have found a friend, I think, and have raided with that bunch a couple times a week since. We did okay and got a bit further than we had before which is what really matters to me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (I got gems and shards only, tonight.. which is fine by me *grin*).

Tash 1

08-07-2009, 04:02 AM

Big question can be what avoid and mitigation you have. If tank have less than 60% in each its really a good idea to have 2 healers.And to be honest. When RoK did came out it was standard for most groups to run with 2 healers. Its always the case for new content. First you need many healers to get around at all later when all have nice gear all demand healers and tanks to be solo healed.I am not saying its good or bad its just as it is.So with the gear and AA the group had I would see a wipe coming if you just had 1 healer.And about fable gear. My templar still uses some treasure pieces over fable ones. … why since they are better for the class than many fable pieces. So fable gear isn’t much of a indicator either.Well hope it gets better next run and I would say that a short “Befallen grp looking for second healer” would have solved all your problems./Hugs Tash

annahelene

08-07-2009, 04:25 AM

I completely agree with you, Dreyco. I have the same problems on my SK, and solo, she does wonders! But, in a group that's going to some random TSO instance, I usually get eaten alive, regardless of how awesome my healers are. I can't go into the 'harder' TSO zones, like Guk and now Kurn's, because I need this gear and that weapon and blah. It just annoys me that with each expansion, everything has gotten increasingly more difficult. I can't raid like most people, I can't get the gear because it's usually reserved for someone else, and no matter how good my AA stats are, it doesn't work. Even with her T1 shard gear, epic, that awesome shield from Befallen, etc. It's just too painful. I rarely venture out into TSO these days because of the sheer difficulty of it all.And I KNOW in EQ1, things were a lot worse than they are now, but this is not EQ1. This is something else entirely. At least ease the burden of those of us who can't survive in TSO zones, or zones introduced -with- TSO. If groups want a challenge, that's what raid zones are for, not single-group zones. Or even Ward of Elements, which is also stupidly hard for an X2 zone.

Dreyco

08-07-2009, 04:28 AM

<cite>annahelene wrote:</cite><blockquote>I completely agree with you, Dreyco. I have the same problems on my SK, and solo, she does wonders! But, in a group that's going to some random TSO instance, I usually get eaten alive, regardless of how awesome my healers are. I can't go into the 'harder' TSO zones, like Guk and now Kurn's, because I need this gear and that weapon and blah. It just annoys me that with each expansion, everything has gotten increasingly more difficult. I can't raid like most people, I can't get the gear because it's usually reserved for someone else, and no matter how good my AA stats are, it doesn't work. Even with her T1 shard gear, epic, that awesome shield from Befallen, etc. It's just too painful. I rarely venture out into TSO these days because of the sheer difficulty of it all.And I KNOW in EQ1, things were a lot worse than they are now, but this is not EQ1. This is something else entirely. At least ease the burden of those of us who can't survive in TSO zones, or zones introduced -with- TSO. If groups want a challenge, that's what raid zones are for, not single-group zones. Or even Ward of Elements, which is also stupidly hard for an X2 zone.</blockquote>I think that making zones challenging is great. But tier it. Make a good portion approachable by the mainstream folks, and then some that are extremely difficult. Not a few that are approachable, and a lot that are extremely difficult.I guess i'm on board with what Brenlo had to say at Fan Faire.You have a tank? You have a healer? You have DPS? You should be able to go out and do a dungeon and enjoy the content. None of this "Well... if you would have had a dirge." Or "Hmm... perhaps a Templar as well..." Our group had a Healer (And a dang good one at that). A tank in some decent gear. And DPS that was ripping through the trash at lightning fast speeds.I guess I could have gone into the LFG Piles and pulled from them, hoping for a healer, or a dirge and stuff, you know? But generally when putting groups together, it -can- take a while, as players all have their ideas of what they do and do not want to do, and that's totally fine. Though sadly, my Fury friend has a curfew due to needing to get up at 5am for work every morning. I can't push the envelope and make us wait, else we really don't have the time to do the content at all.What's the alternative? Don't do the content? We have what would generally be considered to be a "group". It's just not "THE" group?I'm happy that the dev team is now subscribing to the "You don't need THE Group anymore" mentality. I guess I just somewhat wish that it was retroactive. But what can you do, I guess?

annahelene

08-07-2009, 04:30 AM

Tiering the instances is a great idea from what I've seen in other MMOs. THE group just doesn't work out for most people who aren't in those uber raiding guilds and such.

Dreyco

08-07-2009, 04:34 AM

<cite>annahelene wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tiering the instances is a great idea from what I've seen in other MMOs. THE group just doesn't work out for most people who aren't in those uber raiding guilds and such.</blockquote>Well more what i'm talking about is more instances like Scion of Ice and Deep Forge. Crypt of Agony from Kunark. Vault of Eternal Sleep. These are great instances that were very, very approachable by a wide variety of folks who could go in, have fun, get some gear, experience, and AA's, and leave feeling like they accomplished something. Guess what, also, is that a lot of those Kunark zones are STILL Fun! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But beyond Scion of Ice and Deep Forge........

annahelene

08-07-2009, 04:35 AM

Pain, suffering, lots and lots of death, and a wonderful repair bill to look forward to.More fun instances, not death!

therodge

08-07-2009, 04:45 AM

<cite>Tashiana@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Big question can be what avoid and mitigation you have. If tank have less than 60% in each its really a good idea to have 2 healers.And to be honest. When RoK did came out it was standard for most groups to run with 2 healers. Its always the case for new content. First you need many healers to get around at all later when all have nice gear all demand healers and tanks to be solo healed.I am not saying its good or bad its just as it is.So with the gear and AA the group had I would see a wipe coming if you just had 1 healer.And about fable gear. My templar still uses some treasure pieces over fable ones. … why since they are better for the class than many fable pieces. So fable gear isn’t much of a indicator either.Well hope it gets better next run and I would say that a short “Befallen grp looking for second healer” would have solved all your problems./Hugs Tash </blockquote>i dont know if it was commonplace to run with 2 healers for most of rok, i was doing CoA (i could solo first 2 named in coa)and vualts with no healer, ran maidens with one used to duo chelsith with a coer and the only rok instance i used 2 on were RE and this was all in group attained gear literally my guild didnt clear pr till re2 came out

Dreyco

08-07-2009, 04:48 AM

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tashiana@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Big question can be what avoid and mitigation you have. If tank have less than 60% in each its really a good idea to have 2 healers.And to be honest. When RoK did came out it was standard for most groups to run with 2 healers. Its always the case for new content. First you need many healers to get around at all later when all have nice gear all demand healers and tanks to be solo healed.I am not saying its good or bad its just as it is.So with the gear and AA the group had I would see a wipe coming if you just had 1 healer.And about fable gear. My templar still uses some treasure pieces over fable ones. … why since they are better for the class than many fable pieces. So fable gear isn’t much of a indicator either.Well hope it gets better next run and I would say that a short “Befallen grp looking for second healer” would have solved all your problems./Hugs Tash</blockquote>i dont know if it was commonplace to run with 2 healers for most of rok, i was doing CoA (i could solo first 2 named in coa)and vualts with no healer, ran maidens with one used to duo chelsith with a coer and the only rok instance i used 2 on were RE and this was all in group attained gear literally my guild didnt clear pr till re2 came out</blockquote>While I mean no offense Tash, I don't think that I remember clearing the Kunark instances with two healers then either. As a matter of fact, my bruiser would tank them with a defiler. By himself. Those were the good ol' days...

Tash 1

08-07-2009, 04:59 AM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tashiana@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Big question can be what avoid and mitigation you have. If tank have less than 60% in each its really a good idea to have 2 healers.And to be honest. When RoK did came out it was standard for most groups to run with 2 healers. Its always the case for new content. First you need many healers to get around at all later when all have nice gear all demand healers and tanks to be solo healed.I am not saying its good or bad its just as it is.So with the gear and AA the group had I would see a wipe coming if you just had 1 healer.And about fable gear. My templar still uses some treasure pieces over fable ones. … why since they are better for the class than many fable pieces. So fable gear isn’t much of a indicator either.Well hope it gets better next run and I would say that a short “Befallen grp looking for second healer” would have solved all your problems./Hugs Tash</blockquote>i dont know if it was commonplace to run with 2 healers for most of rok, i was doing CoA (i could solo first 2 named in coa)and vualts with no healer, ran maidens with one used to duo chelsith with a coer and the only rok instance i used 2 on were RE and this was all in group attained gear literally my guild didnt clear pr till re2 came out</blockquote>While I mean no offense Tash, I don't think that I remember clearing the Kunark instances with two healers then either. As a matter of fact, my bruiser would tank them with a defiler. By himself. Those were the good ol' days...</blockquote>Impressive very impressive both of you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />When RoK did came out most ppl where busy levelling and getting their buts kicked in KC. That both of you managed so well at start is really nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> No offence taken.Personally I am not that good and dint solo heal Maidens till I where at least 78 or so.But to be honest… It was a Typo. I meant when TSO did came out. That most grps had 2 healers for the instances.Sorry for the mixup./Hugs Tash

ashen1973

08-07-2009, 05:19 AM

I have to agree with some of what others have posted here. I don't think there is an issue with the difficulty of zones in TSO, from the group you describe and how easy you where going down I have to think that you have some issues with gear choices or aa choices.I regularly run TSO instances with guild groups and pick-ups. Usually my guild groups are far from the 'ideal' set-up. We tend to lack bards and can sometimes be fighter heavy.We still succeed in most of the instances. Sometimes it may take several pulls on some nameds to get the strat down , not just the strat found on the internet, but the strat that works for the specific group set-up.I find most of the strats you find if you search, especially those on editable sites such as eq2i, tend to be written by the 'we are uber, we dont need to muck about with complicated starts, we just burn' type of player. Yes, these type of strats are great if you go into an instance with 6 mythed and fabled characters, a bard, a high-dps chanter, a healer, a tank and 2 high dps but for anything less you need to adapt a lot of fights to your group make-up.yes, some of the instances are harder than others.I know from experience, that the following zones are easily doabale by any group of 6 level 80's in a mix of Mastercrafted and RoK legendary.Scion of IceThe AnathemaDeep ForgeObelisk of AzkhulVeksar old and newEvernight Abbey (The Pythoness may give some groups trouble, but is avoidable if need be)Once you have T1 shard armour, these instances are doableThe CrucibleNajena's HollowAnchor of BazhulNu'rogaCavern of the AfflictedOnce you have T2 armourKor'shaHall of the ForesakenGuk: Halls of the FallenWith T2, some nice jewellery and a fairly well set-out groupGuk: Lower CorridorsRavenscale RepositaryNecrotic AsylumThe only 2 zones where you need to start having a very well set-out group and where myth's and some fabled gear are possibly needed arePalace of FerzhulYkesha's Outer StrongholdAnd dont forget the 'old' RoK instances if you are a new level 80.There are still some nice items to get from these and they are good 'training' for TSO zones.

woolf2k

08-07-2009, 09:05 AM

how were you specced? defensive spec makes a big diff if you don't have the healin' powerand how about the healer? they'd be better at solo healin' with a healin spec than dps spec...

Banditman

08-07-2009, 09:12 AM

I can safely assure you that this is not a content problem. My Mystic (Mythical, but otherwise T2 / Legendary at the time) has solo healed a T2 non Mythical SK through nearly every zone in TSO. With the help of a Fury, we rather easily completed Palace of Ferzhul.Where your problem was, I don't know, I wasn't there. But it was not the content.

Kendricke

08-07-2009, 09:38 AM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have a tank? You have a healer? You have DPS? You should be able to go out and do a dungeon and enjoy the content. </blockquote>You should have been able to handle that dungeon with the group you had. Period. I've run Befallen with pick-up groups of all sorts of possible combinations of good/bad/ugly class make-ups. I've run it with brawler tanks. I've solo healed it. I've been through with brand new tanks who aren't terribly geared up. You mentioned Befallen (the second zone). I presume you mean Halls of the Forsaken. However, you also mention the "'easiest' named mob ... the tank and spank one". In Halls of Forsaken, there are no "tank and spank" targets - especially if you haven't been there before. Sir Highgarden (the first named - mounted on his horse) will afflict everyone in range with an uncurable arcane which piles on divine damage which can only be cured by running back to Xavier's ghost. If you tried to trick the script by fighting next to Xavier, that won't work since Xavier only cures you if you run to him from a certain range, so you'd have to run out and back to get the cure that way. If, instead, you thought Tseit'Sozlt was the first named (well, he's not), then the above strategy is effectively the same except that he also hits everyone in range with uncurable elemental and trauma (in addition to the arcane) that you have to run to Anders to cure. If you simply stood near the target and tried to tank and spank any of them in the gear you have, you're going to wipe. That said, I do see that you said you were getting "cured by the ghost", so I presume you understand the basics of the encounter. However, you're not telling us much more than that.What killed you? Being "two rounded" can mean a lot. It can mean piercing damage, divine damage, any number of things. What were your hit points before you pulled? What stance were you in to hold hate? What legendary shield? What high 70's jewelry? What buffs were on you? You mentioned your "The healer in the group is fully experted with master heals and fabled gear." A single healer in Befallen is going to be working pretty hard to begin with. Some healers are going to be working a lot harder than others - was your solo healer a Fury or a Templar? Was it an Inquisitor or a Mystic? Some healers increase DPS by quite a bit at the cost of defensive buffs. A Templar puts thousands of extra health on a tank while a Fury puts only hundreds....Even beyond all this, you're complaining that you had to get gear from this expansion to tank this zone. I heard that and wondered what you thought of the concept of progression ... the idea that you start at A to gear up for B which gets you to C. In Shadow Odyssey, you mention how you used your assassin to go out and earn the shards for your shadowknight...have you actually gone through the earlier dungeons with the shadowknight, though? Have you run Deep Forge, Scion of Ice, or Evernight Abbey with your Shadowknight? You mentioned T1 shard gear - but which set did you buy? You mentioned the high 70's jewelry, but you didn't talk about shard jewelry. Just because you personally had issues with the system doesn't mean the system is broken.

madha

08-07-2009, 10:35 AM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have a tank? You have a healer? You have DPS? You should be able to go out and do a dungeon and enjoy the content. </blockquote>You should have been able to handle that dungeon with the group you had. Period. I've run Befallen with pick-up groups of all sorts of possible combinations of good/bad/ugly class make-ups. I've run it with brawler tanks. I've solo healed it. I've been through with brand new tanks who aren't terribly geared up. You mentioned Befallen (the second zone). I presume you mean Halls of the Forsaken. However, you also mention the "'easiest' named mob ... the tank and spank one". In Halls of Forsaken, there are no "tank and spank" targets - especially if you haven't been there before. Sir Highgarden (the first named - mounted on his horse) will afflict everyone in range with an uncurable arcane which piles on divine damage which can only be cured by running back to Xavier's ghost. If you tried to trick the script by fighting next to Xavier, that won't work since Xavier only cures you if you run to him from a certain range, so you'd have to run out and back to get the cure that way. If, instead, you thought Tseit'Sozlt was the first named (well, he's not), then the above strategy is effectively the same except that he also hits everyone in range with uncurable elemental and trauma (in addition to the arcane) that you have to run to Anders to cure. If you simply stood near the target and tried to tank and spank any of them in the gear you have, you're going to wipe. That said, I do see that you said you were getting "cured by the ghost", so I presume you understand the basics of the encounter. However, you're not telling us much more than that.What killed you? Being "two rounded" can mean a lot. It can mean piercing damage, divine damage, any number of things. What were your hit points before you pulled? What stance were you in to hold hate? What legendary shield? What high 70's jewelry? What buffs were on you? You mentioned your "The healer in the group is fully experted with master heals and fabled gear." A single healer in Befallen is going to be working pretty hard to begin with. Some healers are going to be working a lot harder than others - was your solo healer a Fury or a Templar? Was it an Inquisitor or a Mystic? Some healers increase DPS by quite a bit at the cost of defensive buffs. A Templar puts thousands of extra health on a tank while a Fury puts only hundreds....Even beyond all this, you're complaining that you had to get gear from this expansion to tank this zone. I heard that and wondered what you thought of the concept of progression ... the idea that you start at A to gear up for B which gets you to C. In Shadow Odyssey, you mention how you used your assassin to go out and earn the shards for your shadowknight...have you actually gone through the earlier dungeons with the shadowknight, though? Have you run Deep Forge, Scion of Ice, or Evernight Abbey with your Shadowknight? You mentioned T1 shard gear - but which set did you buy? You mentioned the high 70's jewelry, but you didn't talk about shard jewelry. Just because you personally had issues with the system doesn't mean the system is broken. </blockquote>sums it up nicely. High 70 jewlery doesnt mean anything if its dps jewlery =P. And im not sure do instance mobs crit ? might need to run df and the ef zones until you get t2 armor

Jrral

08-07-2009, 11:32 AM

I've run that zone on a 'zerker geared about like you are, Dreyco. A few things I've found:The dwarf has to be jousted. If you just set yourself near him, he won't cure. You have to run to him, he'll cure you as you cross his range inbound, then run out of his range again to reset him for the next cure. I don't know if you're doing that, but I got eaten the first time in there because I didn't get far enough away from the dwarf the first fight.Emphasize defense in your gear. Use your defensive stance, put on jewelry with +defense/+parry/+shield-effectiveness on it even if that means giving up some damage in the process. Some of those detrimentals really hammer your defenses and resistances, you can't afford to be borderline before the fight starts.Get a sixth to fill out your group. With your group you've got DPS and should have enough buffs for the tank, so maybe a second healer to help on the nameds?

Rijacki

08-07-2009, 11:56 AM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that making zones challenging is great. But tier it. Make a good portion approachable by the mainstream folks, and then some that are extremely difficult. Not a few that are approachable, and a lot that are extremely difficult.I guess i'm on board with what Brenlo had to say at Fan Faire.You have a tank? You have a healer? You have DPS? You should be able to go out and do a dungeon and enjoy the content. None of this "Well... if you would have had a dirge." Or "Hmm... perhaps a Templar as well..." Our group had a Healer (And a dang good one at that). A tank in some decent gear. And DPS that was ripping through the trash at lightning fast speeds.I guess I could have gone into the LFG Piles and pulled from them, hoping for a healer, or a dirge and stuff, you know? But generally when putting groups together, it -can- take a while, as players all have their ideas of what they do and do not want to do, and that's totally fine. Though sadly, my Fury friend has a curfew due to needing to get up at 5am for work every morning. I can't push the envelope and make us wait, else we really don't have the time to do the content at all.What's the alternative? Don't do the content? We have what would generally be considered to be a "group". It's just not "THE" group?I'm happy that the dev team is now subscribing to the "You don't need THE Group anymore" mentality. I guess I just somewhat wish that it was retroactive. But what can you do, I guess?</blockquote>They ARE tiered. When we (and I was, as I will point out again, in THAT group) saw we had an open spot and there was reluctance to pull from "the LFG piles", we should have gone to one of the zones which is easier, Deep Forge, Scion, etc (look at the list above, it's not just a couple easier, it's -several- easier). By the time we were done with one of the short ones, like Deep Forge, my sweetie's dirge would have been available. It isn't that a dirge is required, but with that group make up, a dirge would have made it a lot more possible.Why did we NEED to do Halls of Forsaken? Oh.. it was the daily double. So? Without making it grey (I have thus far successfully avoided groups doing grey runs), it is good, at times, to have a "sure" 2 (1 from the zone quest + 1 from the chest) or even just 1 (if the chests are still down) than to feel "required" to do the daily double and get none (or just 1 frojm the zone quest, maybe).I didn't suggest that last night because when I have suggested it in the past, it was immediately discarded as not worthwhile.I'm going to repeat what I said earlier in this thread (though in other words *grin*). If need to pay attention to the group make up and then go to where it's more plausible for that group to suceed than to be your own worst enemy and attempt something a lot more difficult than your group can handle.It's not a THE Group mentality. It's knowing what your group, at that moment, can handle and then attempting THAT. It doesn't even mean "you can do only grey runs", there are dungeons which ARE eaiser and ones which are harder.Personally, I like that some are easier and some harder. I like that you have to actually pay attention to the strengths and weaknesses of your group to assess what challenges are possible, plausible, and a bit too difficult. I like that you have to make CHOICES, -and- have choices from which to pick, of what you can do based on your group."You have a tank? You have a healer? You have DPS? You should be able to go out and do a dungeon and enjoy the content." That's not "do -any- dungeon", it's do "a" dungeon. There were dungeons, even TSO shard granting dungeons, we could have done instead, without changing even one member of the group, without even filling that empty slot with anything else.

Ezariel

08-07-2009, 12:01 PM

It's not really gear or content that is the problem. I had a run last night on my Zerk that reminded me of this. I am full t2 or better and fully expert/master. We had a ranger that was opening on bosses with sniper shot and other high damage attacks, often pulling the boss right off me making it impossible to position and wiping the healers with aoe's. Several times we were wiped from people wandering around in places they shouldn't have gone. We had people who didn't know the scripts for bosses who were sucking up the healers mp. We told people to stun this boss when he does this, and they didn't. We told people to kill adds and they didn't. Etc. ad nauseum.Were your dps really "good" or did they just put up high numbers? These are two very different things. Were you getting multiple mobs/encounters that you didn't need to? Were your healers staying out of bad effects and curing those effects off of you? Or did your group expect that you would be able to perform like a t3 SK with myth and just do what they felt like doing?I have gone into instances with fully mythed and fabled groups and yes they tear right through it. But not having that gear does not make it impossible. It just means that people need to think. But though I hate to say it, unfortunately most players in TSO have become stupid after playing with the unbreakable aggro and unprecedented survivability of a fabled/mythed SK.

Thunndar316

08-07-2009, 12:13 PM

Our group of casual raiders have cleared most of the TSO instances. Just missing Varsoon and the Powermongerer. Don't know what it is about that damned Powermongerer.Anyway, just try to improve your gear and keep grindin away. You have the right tank class for it and be thankful you are not a guardian.

Banditman

08-07-2009, 12:15 PM

Rijaki is sort of touching on something that very few people get. There are two methods to addressing content:Content Driven - In this method, you select the content that you wish to play, and you build a group around completing that content. Group Driven - In this method, you build your group and select the content appropriate for the group.In both of these methods, realistic expectations must prevail. If you are doing a Content Driven address, you have to know the content and what is in store, building a group that can realistically address and defeat the content you've chosen. In a Group Driven address, you simply build a group, and then analyze the available content and choose a suitable piece of content for the capabilities you've assembled.In almost every single post I've seen where people complain about content being too difficult, they've tried to mix these two methods. You can't do that. You either build a group for the content or select a piece of content for the group.In your example, you tried to combine these methods and you failed. You started to run a Content Driven method, by pre-selecting a zone to run. However, you didn't follow through. You allowed an outside influence, an upcoming curfew, to influence your decisions. You didn't build a group capable of completing the content.Your group most assuredly was capable of completing content, just not the content you selected.

Sedenten

08-07-2009, 12:19 PM

I haven't really checked Scion of Ice, but NPC's in Deep Forge do land criticals. That could have some impact, though I was under the impression that the statistic bonus for critical mitigation would be enough to handle the hits there (i.e. the up to 10% bonus you have for having high AGI or INT, depending on your class). The tier 2 armor would make a dramatic difference, except that it's intended that you do the content where the extra bonus would make a difference in order to get the extra bonus of the tier 2 set. Sure, you can do the solo quest in Lavastorm but that is tedious and is hardly what I would see as the "ideal" method for progressing as a casual in this expansion.Honestly, I feel that the tier 1 armor should've had a minimal amount of critical mitigation with the tier 2 giving slightly higher bonuses. Instead you need to do the easiest instances several times before you can acquire your first piece of tier 2 (and that at the expense of upgrading more slots with tier 1 before upgrading).

Kendricke

08-07-2009, 12:43 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are two methods to addressing content:Content Driven - In this method, you select the content that you wish to play, and you build a group around completing that content. Group Driven - In this method, you build your group and select the content appropriate for the group. In both of these methods, realistic expectations must prevail. If you are doing a Content Driven address, you have to know the content and what is in store, building a group that can realistically address and defeat the content you've chosen. In a Group Driven address, you simply build a group, and then analyze the available content and choose a suitable piece of content for the capabilities you've assembled.In almost every single post I've seen where people complain about content being too difficult, they've tried to mix these two methods. You can't do that. You either build a group for the content or select a piece of content for the group.</blockquote>I'm putting this onto a T-Shirt.

Noaani

08-07-2009, 01:34 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>annahelene wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tiering the instances is a great idea from what I've seen in other MMOs. THE group just doesn't work out for most people who aren't in those uber raiding guilds and such.</blockquote>Well more what i'm talking about is more instances like Scion of Ice and Deep Forge. Crypt of Agony from Kunark. Vault of Eternal Sleep. These are great instances that were very, very approachable by a wide variety of folks who could go in, have fun, get some gear, experience, and AA's, and leave feeling like they accomplished something. Guess what, also, is that a lot of those Kunark zones are STILL Fun! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />But beyond Scion of Ice and Deep Forge........</blockquote>Thats the thing though.If you want to throw together a miss-matched, almost full group and run an instance, you have the choice of almost 10. I think you would find that to be more than most other top end MMOs on the market.If you manage to get a bit more gear, or a slightly better group, instead of doing those zones on /easymode, you have another 10 or so instances that open up to you. The requirements for the second set of instances are not that high, and as has been pointed out, simply adding a dirge or second healer would have set you right in your group from the OP. T2 shard gear on the tank would have done the same thing.Would you rather all instances were tuned towards poorly set up, almost full groups of characters in the minimum gear that is acceptable for the content, with nothing to progress to should you manage to gear up or get a better group?

Gilasil

08-07-2009, 02:39 PM

I'm trying to remember if critical mitigation is necessary for survival in the Befallen group zones. It certainly is in the raid zone. As I recall, tier 1 shard armor doesn't have critical mitigation. Upgrade to tier 2 armor as fast as possible. Thanks to the miricle of cheap exploits (brought to you by Incompetant Devs (tm)) that shouldn't be a problem if you can get one level 50 to help you out. Or you can do eo the easier shard zones. These zones are possible but they are indeed rough zones until you get good raid gear.It's been a long time since I was in Veksar but my memories were that it was hard. Probably another place requiring carefully balanced groups.And I find it hard to believe a bruiser could duo Maidens right after the ROK came out. I'd like details before I swallow that one. MAYBE if he did that after getting mythical + VP gear. Maybe. (this of course assumes that when he said he duoed it he actually completed it. I can SOLO maidens until I get to the the first mob <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )These zones require pretty much close to ideal group setups until you have really good gear. Too bad SoE is not greatly concerned that everyone have a place in an ideal setup but that's for another thread.

Dreyco

08-07-2009, 03:04 PM

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>These zones require pretty much close to ideal group setups until you have really good gear. Too bad SoE is not greatly concerned that everyone have a place in an ideal setup but that's for another thread.</blockquote>That's the point i'm trying to hit on! A lot of people don't have immidiate access to ideal setups, and without it, you're limited to the older content (Which i've done.. a lot!) Or you're limited to two of the twenty zones in the expansion. I'm not the only one who thinks that this is backwards. Why not making half of them that way?Rijacki, I understand that, but after running Scion of Ice and Deep Forge over and over and over again, you want to see new things. My Tank IS geared up nicely. It just, once again, requires that "ideal" group. Two healers? Is ideal. A dirge is a single class necessity, which makes it, once again, "Ideal". Not everyone has immidiate access to those ideals. Heck, you know what? Having access to a coercer is like EQ2 Gold, and having access to one as talented as you is like falling into a mine shaft and landing on a solid bed of silver <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .I can keep on saving for better gear. I'm just going to have to say "Alright, SK, you go ahead and sit down now until I save up about another 45-100 more shards", log on my assassin, and then go and do the zones until my tank has some of the Shard Jewelry, maybe the shard tower shield, that kind of stuff.I'm beyond being upset (As in, not upset at all). I'm just trying to say: Being two rounded by named with a decently geared tank, yes, in as much a tanking stance as I can make him is a little over the top. The solution to that is, by what is being told to me, to go ahead and just delve into the PUG Lists and cross your fingers that you'll find those uber saught after classes before my friend has to go to sleep.Challenging? Yes. Would I love to see more of them? Yes. Would I like to tank more of them? Absolutely. Does it seem in the cards for my resources? Well, I suppose that it does, but it will take the breeze of good circumstances blowing my way, which puts a several days out of the week on the "Well guys, let's run Maiden's again" list.

Kendricke

08-07-2009, 03:31 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>These zones require pretty much close to ideal group setups until you have really good gear. Too bad SoE is not greatly concerned that everyone have a place in an ideal setup but that's for another thread.</blockquote>That's the point i'm trying to hit on! A lot of people don't have immidiate access to ideal setups, and without it, you're limited to the older content (Which i've done.. a lot!) Or you're limited to two of the twenty zones in the expansion. I'm not the only one who thinks that this is backwards. Why not making half of them that way?Rijacki, I understand that, but after running Scion of Ice and Deep Forge over and over and over again, you want to see new things. My Tank IS geared up nicely. It just, once again, requires that "ideal" group. Two healers? Is ideal. A dirge is a single class necessity, which makes it, once again, "Ideal". Not everyone has immidiate access to those ideals. Heck, you know what? Having access to a coercer is like EQ2 Gold, and having access to one as talented as you is like falling into a mine shaft and landing on a solid bed of silver <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> .I can keep on saving for better gear. I'm just going to have to say "Alright, SK, you go ahead and sit down now until I save up about another 45-100 more shards", log on my assassin, and then go and do the zones until my tank has some of the Shard Jewelry, maybe the shard tower shield, that kind of stuff.I'm beyond being upset (As in, not upset at all). I'm just trying to say: Being two rounded by named with a decently geared tank, yes, in as much a tanking stance as I can make him is a little over the top. The solution to that is, by what is being told to me, to go ahead and just delve into the PUG Lists and cross your fingers that you'll find those uber saught after classes before my friend has to go to sleep.Challenging? Yes. Would I love to see more of them? Yes. Would I like to tank more of them? Absolutely. Does it seem in the cards for my resources? Well, I suppose that it does, but it will take the breeze of good circumstances blowing my way, which puts a several days out of the week on the "Well guys, let's run Maiden's again" list.</blockquote>You don't require an ideal group for Halls of the Forsaken. Saying this over and over does not make it so. Saying you're limited to only Deep Forge or Scion of Ice if you can't handle Halls of Forsaken doesn't make it so, either. What about Evernight? What about Caverns? What about Najena's? What about Nuroga? What about any of the 8-10 dungeons which are easier than Halls of the Forsaken? You're painting your situation as "ZOMG! IDEAL GROUP WITH RAID GEAR" versus "OH NOES! DEEP FORGE AGAIN!", when in reality nearly half the dungeons in the new expansion are easier than Halls of the Forsaken. Of course, we keep glossing over the fact that even with your single healer and five person group, it's still possible to handle that specific dungeon. It won't be fall over easy and you're going to wipe a few times, but it is possible. Want to handle that dungeon easier next time? Ask for help. Ask for advice on gear instead of trying to convince everyone else how "geared up" your shadowknight is. Ask for help on the strat instead of telling us how you already know the strat. Ask for help with the target. Ask for advice on which healers to use. Ask for help instead of assuming its the dungeon that's to blame. Find out what the actual problem is instead of assuming it couldn't possibly be on your end.

Yimway

08-07-2009, 03:35 PM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dwarf has to be jousted. If you just set yourself near him, he won't cure. You have to run to him, he'll cure you as you cross his range inbound, then run out of his range again to reset him for the next cure. I don't know if you're doing that, but I got eaten the first time in there because I didn't get far enough away from the dwarf the first fight.</blockquote>This.The problem isn't the challenge of the content, or your gear.Its a failure to execute the strategy for the script in front of you. You can be fully fabled and have nearly the same result if you ignore the line dance the script is asking for.

Jesdyr

08-07-2009, 03:45 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its a failure to execute the strategy for the script in front of you. </blockquote>Yup ... TSO content is all about the sripts. Sure with the right gear and/or group you can brute force it, but the script is still there.Gilasil - As far as I know, Crit mit is only used for raids. I dont think there is any use for it outside of TSO raiding.

Dreyco

08-07-2009, 03:46 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dwarf has to be jousted. If you just set yourself near him, he won't cure. You have to run to him, he'll cure you as you cross his range inbound, then run out of his range again to reset him for the next cure. I don't know if you're doing that, but I got eaten the first time in there because I didn't get far enough away from the dwarf the first fight.</blockquote>This.The problem isn't the challenge of the content, or your gear.Its a failure to execute the strategy for the script in front of you. You can be fully fabled and have nearly the same result if you ignore the line dance the script is asking for.</blockquote>It was the nightblood thingy! Not the dwarf. Or the orc. Ouch.. I remember the orc being a pain on my assassin. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />

Kendricke

08-07-2009, 04:36 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>It was the nightblood thingy! Not the dwarf. Or the orc. Ouch.. I remember the orc being a pain on my assassin. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>First off, the nightblood is NOT the first or easiest named in the zone. The nightblood is Tsiet'Sozlt, who is the second named in the zone and who is generally much harder than the first (which is Sir Highgarden). Apparently, you picked up your information on the zone from ZAM and not from EQ2i. ZAM incorrectly lists Tsiet'Sozlt as "the easiest of the 4 Sub-Boss fights, just a tank and spank" whereas EQ2i informs you that this is not the case. EQ2i would also have provided the information that Tsiet'Sozlt hits you with three different detrimentals (arcane, elemental, and trauma) where ZAM provides nothing of the sort. The strategy is essentially the same for Tsiet'Sozlt as it is for Sir Highgarden, with the exception that he's much harder, hits harder, and has less room for error - especially for your healers.

Thunndar316

08-07-2009, 04:43 PM

Oddly enough the only tank n spank namer in that zone is the last guy. He does have a DPS requirement though so he doesn't turn epic after the last ghost goes down.The other namers all pretty much have you running to the ghosts for cures then running back to fight. Having one curse on you isn't too bad but they stack. If you get 2 or 3 stacked up on you it doesn't matter what gear you are wearing.

Rijacki

08-07-2009, 05:01 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rijaki is sort of touching on something that very few people get. There are two methods to addressing content:Content Driven - In this method, you select the content that you wish to play, and you build a group around completing that content. Group Driven - In this method, you build your group and select the content appropriate for the group.In both of these methods, realistic expectations must prevail. If you are doing a Content Driven address, you have to know the content and what is in store, building a group that can realistically address and defeat the content you've chosen. In a Group Driven address, you simply build a group, and then analyze the available content and choose a suitable piece of content for the capabilities you've assembled.</blockquote>Thank you! You explained it in a lot fewer words than I was capable of last night and this morning <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />That's -exactly- what I was meaning.When you want to build the group and then do stuff, choose what you can do (and there would have been about a dozen options open to our group of 5). If you want to go to a specific place, be prepared to build a group (or add to your already built group) to make it more probable to suceed.

Kordran

08-07-2009, 05:14 PM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The other namers all pretty much have you running to the ghosts for cures then running back to fight. Having one curse on you isn't too bad but they stack. If you get 2 or 3 stacked up on you it doesn't matter what gear you are wearing.</blockquote>ROFLI'll just leave it at that.

Jrral

08-08-2009, 01:22 AM

Jrral

08-08-2009, 01:25 AM

<cite>madhatr wrote:</cite><blockquote>sums it up nicely. High 70 jewlery doesnt mean anything if its dps jewlery =P. And im not sure do instance mobs crit ? might need to run df and the ef zones until you get t2 armor</blockquote>According to a dev at Fan Faire, the instance mobs do crit but their multiplier's low and you can pretty much completely negate their crits with your innate crit mit without needing additional gear. Some of the toughest instance bosses might need a few percent of crit-mit gear (or a warden with the crit-mit buff ability). Only when you hit raid mobs should crit-mit gear be required.

Glenolas

08-08-2009, 12:03 PM

Success in the TSO instances depends on the tank/healer combos, not just the tank. It also depends on you learning the fine points of the game, not just running in and smacking the bosses down. Every zone has a few loot pinatas, but after that you have to do the right things or even the best groups fail. Here are some ideas for you to think about.Other than the easiest single healer boss fights, the tank has to get defensive. With just T2 void shard (notice, not just T1) and suitable legendary jewelry, you can get to 65% mitigation and 70% avoidance. I'll call that TSO basic. Kunark gear sets were around 59% and 63% respectively. To get that avoidance, you MUST pay attention to the jewelry side. Many tanks dress that side for offense, hence take a beating. They swap a small amount of additional DPS for a noticable amount of incoming damage, counting on the healer to save them. Fix that and you'll see immediate payback. A tank's job is to stay alive and hold aggro. Anything else is someone else's job.Next, you have chosen the least capable healer for single healer grouping. Druids are far and away the best healers to have when the whole group gets clobbered with AoE's, and the best direct healers in the game, after the tank has taken damage. However, shamans work by warding the tank, and wards prevent damage from occurring in the first place. A mastered, legendary shaman will ward around 50K of damage per minute. A druid can't heal unless you are already damaged, and the upper level mobs can overwhelm it. You should also make sure your healer is geared for hard core healing. Masters add about 14% to each heal, but often neglected are the +heal stats, which for a good legendary healer should be over +1000. That means every heal cast has 1000 added to it, something you can't do without. Heal crit is not as meaningful as crit for damage doers, but that's the next thing to improve. A common error for all healers is to add +damage stats in lieu of +healing, and that's doubly true for druids, who actually can do reasonable damage. They do DPS while you die. In single healer groups, on hard instances, if the your healer wastes a single spell on damage, kick it and find another healer. Incidental damage from procs or power scavaging, or a melee swing doesn't count.One option is to swap the fury for a shaman.However....The fury can be a very useful DPS if they've gotten the 170AA end of line (around 184AA) items and gotten their offensive and healing stances. With two gear sets (offensive AND healing), a well played legendary Fury can equal your necro in DPS, (but won't get near the wizard or coercer), so another option would be replace the necro with a defiler, and let the Fury swing from offense to hard core healing as the bosses require. You'd have the same group DPS for yard trash and easy bosses, but the added value of a Fury healer for tough bosses and the AOE situations mentioned above.If you the learn the episode scripts, and work your way up from the easy to the hard instances, that combo can take anything in TSO group instances. I know. We run the with a similar group: paladin, defiler, fury, illusionist, wizard, warlock.

Katanalla

08-08-2009, 01:14 PM

I think the summoner was the problem.

Macross_JR

08-08-2009, 01:23 PM

Dreyco

08-08-2009, 03:02 PM

<cite>Glenolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Success in the TSO instances depends on the tank/healer combos, not just the tank. It also depends on you learning the fine points of the game, not just running in and smacking the bosses down. Every zone has a few loot pinatas, but after that you have to do the right things or even the best groups fail. Here are some ideas for you to think about.Other than the easiest single healer boss fights, the tank has to get defensive. With just T2 void shard (notice, not just T1) and suitable legendary jewelry, you can get to 65% mitigation and 70% avoidance. I'll call that TSO basic. Kunark gear sets were around 59% and 63% respectively. To get that avoidance, you MUST pay attention to the jewelry side. Many tanks dress that side for offense, hence take a beating. They swap a small amount of additional DPS for a noticable amount of incoming damage, counting on the healer to save them. Fix that and you'll see immediate payback. A tank's job is to stay alive and hold aggro. Anything else is someone else's job.Next, you have chosen the least capable healer for single healer grouping. Druids are far and away the best healers to have when the whole group gets clobbered with AoE's, and the best direct healers in the game, after the tank has taken damage. However, shamans work by warding the tank, and wards prevent damage from occurring in the first place. A mastered, legendary shaman will ward around 50K of damage per minute. A druid can't heal unless you are already damaged, and the upper level mobs can overwhelm it. You should also make sure your healer is geared for hard core healing. Masters add about 14% to each heal, but often neglected are the +heal stats, which for a good legendary healer should be over +1000. That means every heal cast has 1000 added to it, something you can't do without. Heal crit is not as meaningful as crit for damage doers, but that's the next thing to improve. A common error for all healers is to add +damage stats in lieu of +healing, and that's doubly true for druids, who actually can do reasonable damage. They do DPS while you die. In single healer groups, on hard instances, if the your healer wastes a single spell on damage, kick it and find another healer. Incidental damage from procs or power scavaging, or a melee swing doesn't count.One option is to swap the fury for a shaman.However....The fury can be a very useful DPS if they've gotten the 170AA end of line (around 184AA) items and gotten their offensive and healing stances. With two gear sets (offensive AND healing), a well played legendary Fury can equal your necro in DPS, (but won't get near the wizard or coercer), so another option would be replace the necro with a defiler, and let the Fury swing from offense to hard core healing as the bosses require. You'd have the same group DPS for yard trash and easy bosses, but the added value of a Fury healer for tough bosses and the AOE situations mentioned above.If you the learn the episode scripts, and work your way up from the easy to the hard instances, that combo can take anything in TSO group instances. I know. We run the with a similar group: paladin, defiler, fury, illusionist, wizard, warlock.</blockquote>You're kind of validating my point...."With tier 2 shard gear you should have stats X, Y, and Z. That's TSO Standard." Meaning... I need gear from the expansion to be "Standard" in that expansion. Right? Well... why so? FYI, I have tier 1 shard gear, and my mitigation values are 56%, and my avoidance values 41%. That's in defensive stance, with an adept III Defensive stance spell, and a Legendary Kunark Tower Shield. The only way that I can bring that up is by getting some pretty heavy +Deflection and +Defense jewelry, which doesn't really drop in Kunark. Most of what you find is heavy stat oriented gear, like +Sta/Agi/Int, etc, which things like Spell Crit, Spell Damage, and everything in between. You didn't really see a lot of legendary jewelry sets carrying those stats until... TSO. Once again, you're getting at the heart of my argument. I need Tier 2 Shard Gear and TSO Jewelry to be "Standard" in tanking the zones that require me to get the gear? This isn't a bit backwards?Also, an assumption was made that my friend is specced for damage... holy cow no. Absolutely not. Shirai puts as much attention into his healing effectiveness as he does anything else, and unlike a lot of furies (who seem to think the class is a wizard or something hehe), he really pays attention to others health bars and does a great job with the tools that he has. It is recommended, though, that he go and get master spells just like they are an easy commodity to come by.. they're not. The healing spells still cost 200-400 platinum, and he has, believe it or not, managed to get his hands on a few of them.Don't get me wrong. I don't want these zones to be "Run through and have an easy time tanking them and get some easy loot." I -do- however want to be able to approach these zones in stuff that, yes, i've received from TSO in many cases, and worked in the Kunark Zones also for, and be able to at least do them with a group of friends that I have logging in with me every day.I do have a Bruiser that has some fabled with a 75% avoidance check in defensive that I suppose I could try to use. But if he falters... well...

Ahlana

08-08-2009, 03:31 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're kind of validating my point...."With tier 2 shard gear you should have stats X, Y, and Z. That's TSO Standard." Meaning... I need gear from the expansion to be "Standard" in that expansion. Right? Well... why so? FYI, I have tier 1 shard gear, and my mitigation values are 56%, and my avoidance values 41%. That's in defensive stance, with an adept III Defensive stance spell, and a Legendary Kunark Tower Shield. The only way that I can bring that up is by getting some pretty heavy +Deflection and +Defense jewelry, which doesn't really drop in Kunark. Most of what you find is heavy stat oriented gear, like +Sta/Agi/Int, etc, which things like Spell Crit, Spell Damage, and everything in between. You didn't really see a lot of legendary jewelry sets carrying those stats until... TSO. Once again, you're getting at the heart of my argument. I need Tier 2 Shard Gear and TSO Jewelry to be "Standard" in tanking the zones that require me to get the gear? This isn't a bit backwards?</blockquote>Dreyco don't read to much into it. When I started TSO I was in Level 77 MCed with some legendary jewelry from RoK Dungeons to fill me out. I hadn't reached 140AA yet and when TSO came out I tanked the "easier" dungeons just fine. I did commonly have two healers, but there were several cases where I didn't even have a full group and only one healer. I am an SK just like you so it is more than possible. And if it isn't you bud, well then it is those around you.When I did get T1 Gear I moved to slightly tougher Dungeons... still no problem, there hasn't been a dungeon yet that I was unable to tank moving from RoK 77MC up... Simply put your gear is more than suffeciant to tank the easier TSO dungeons.

Paddyo

08-08-2009, 05:21 PM

I really hope I am not beating a dead horse here (I am on probation for that, and I know beating another one will violate it) and I hope what I have to say isn't too off topic.Lost Dungeons of Norrath in EQ1 worked well because of the challenge being available in alot of different flavors without being too overwhelming. I had a good friend in game who was a shaman, and his great pride was his zero losses on hard difficulty LDONs. He would not go into a hard LDON run with a group he didnt believe in. Of course, there was plenty of other grouping opportunities within the same expansion that allowed for him to do stuff with anyone he wanted to. The system awarded points that could be spent on gear, augments, even spells that weren't otherwise available, so whether he "won" on a hard LDON or normal difficulty one was of little consequence; the motivation behind doing the hard one was simply the challenge and his pride.I myself was addicted to the zones where you had to kill X number of mobs before the timer expired. You often found yourself going all out to make up time after a bad pull wiped the group, or trying to track down mobs you needed to finish the zone; but there was an innate "fun" factor about this whole system that made it something you looked forward to when you got off school or work. No matter which zone you tried to do, you were earning points to be spent on whatever augment or item you wanted, and each set of zones had different purchaseable upgrades which made doing them addictive. You might spend a couple of weeks doing the Mistmoore Catacombs zones because you needed points to spend there....and then a couple of weeks in Everfrost doing Miragul's dungeons to earn something there. Regardless, you had two motivations. There was the fun factor, and there was a point system, too. This game is awesome. I love it. I am not asking to rehash EQ1, but some ideas that work and work well, ought to be revisted. I had high hopes for TSO, and I quit playing for an extended period not even a few months after it came out. Things could be better, and the challenge could be recreated if people make it so. Its is NOT impossible to create generic content that challenges all levels and types of players.

Kendricke

08-08-2009, 08:17 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Glenolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Success in the TSO instances depends on the tank/healer combos, not just the tank. It also depends on you learning the fine points of the game, not just running in and smacking the bosses down. Every zone has a few loot pinatas, but after that you have to do the right things or even the best groups fail. Here are some ideas for you to think about.Other than the easiest single healer boss fights, the tank has to get defensive. With just T2 void shard (notice, not just T1) and suitable legendary jewelry, you can get to 65% mitigation and 70% avoidance. I'll call that TSO basic. Kunark gear sets were around 59% and 63% respectively. To get that avoidance, you MUST pay attention to the jewelry side. Many tanks dress that side for offense, hence take a beating. They swap a small amount of additional DPS for a noticable amount of incoming damage, counting on the healer to save them. Fix that and you'll see immediate payback. A tank's job is to stay alive and hold aggro. Anything else is someone else's job.Next, you have chosen the least capable healer for single healer grouping. Druids are far and away the best healers to have when the whole group gets clobbered with AoE's, and the best direct healers in the game, after the tank has taken damage. However, shamans work by warding the tank, and wards prevent damage from occurring in the first place. A mastered, legendary shaman will ward around 50K of damage per minute. A druid can't heal unless you are already damaged, and the upper level mobs can overwhelm it. You should also make sure your healer is geared for hard core healing. Masters add about 14% to each heal, but often neglected are the +heal stats, which for a good legendary healer should be over +1000. That means every heal cast has 1000 added to it, something you can't do without. Heal crit is not as meaningful as crit for damage doers, but that's the next thing to improve. A common error for all healers is to add +damage stats in lieu of +healing, and that's doubly true for druids, who actually can do reasonable damage. They do DPS while you die. In single healer groups, on hard instances, if the your healer wastes a single spell on damage, kick it and find another healer. Incidental damage from procs or power scavaging, or a melee swing doesn't count.One option is to swap the fury for a shaman.However....The fury can be a very useful DPS if they've gotten the 170AA end of line (around 184AA) items and gotten their offensive and healing stances. With two gear sets (offensive AND healing), a well played legendary Fury can equal your necro in DPS, (but won't get near the wizard or coercer), so another option would be replace the necro with a defiler, and let the Fury swing from offense to hard core healing as the bosses require. You'd have the same group DPS for yard trash and easy bosses, but the added value of a Fury healer for tough bosses and the AOE situations mentioned above.If you the learn the episode scripts, and work your way up from the easy to the hard instances, that combo can take anything in TSO group instances. I know. We run the with a similar group: paladin, defiler, fury, illusionist, wizard, warlock.</blockquote>You're kind of validating my point...."With tier 2 shard gear you should have stats X, Y, and Z. That's TSO Standard." Meaning... I need gear from the expansion to be "Standard" in that expansion. Right? Well... why so? FYI, I have tier 1 shard gear, and my mitigation values are 56%, and my avoidance values 41%. That's in defensive stance, with an adept III Defensive stance spell, and a Legendary Kunark Tower Shield. The only way that I can bring that up is by getting some pretty heavy +Deflection and +Defense jewelry, which doesn't really drop in Kunark. Most of what you find is heavy stat oriented gear, like +Sta/Agi/Int, etc, which things like Spell Crit, Spell Damage, and everything in between. You didn't really see a lot of legendary jewelry sets carrying those stats until... TSO. Once again, you're getting at the heart of my argument. I need Tier 2 Shard Gear and TSO Jewelry to be "Standard" in tanking the zones that require me to get the gear? This isn't a bit backwards?Also, an assumption was made that my friend is specced for damage... holy cow no. Absolutely not. Shirai puts as much attention into his healing effectiveness as he does anything else, and unlike a lot of furies (who seem to think the class is a wizard or something hehe), he really pays attention to others health bars and does a great job with the tools that he has. It is recommended, though, that he go and get master spells just like they are an easy commodity to come by.. they're not. The healing spells still cost 200-400 platinum, and he has, believe it or not, managed to get his hands on a few of them.Don't get me wrong. I don't want these zones to be "Run through and have an easy time tanking them and get some easy loot." I -do- however want to be able to approach these zones in stuff that, yes, i've received from TSO in many cases, and worked in the Kunark Zones also for, and be able to at least do them with a group of friends that I have logging in with me every day.I do have a Bruiser that has some fabled with a 75% avoidance check in defensive that I suppose I could try to use. But if he falters... well...</blockquote>You went into a higher tier zone with a less than full group which wasn't ideal and then you use that as the example to prove that the system is broken. The system is fine. Halls of the Forsaken is not an entry level zone for the expansion. It was never intended to be an entry level zone for the expansion. It was never tested as an entry level zone for the expansion. Therefore, there should be no problems with gear requirements for the zone that require easier zones to gear up in. When Echoes of Faydwer came out, Mistmoore Castle was not considered an entry level dungeon. You couldn't just wander on in with your Sanctum of Scaleborn and Palace of the Awakened gear and expect to waltz through the zone with a single fury healer in a less-than-full group. Is it possible to hit Halls of the Forsaken with a single fury healer and a five person group with less than T2 shard armor? Yes...but it won't be easy. Even with the right gear, that zone's still not going to be a complete pushover if you (A) don't know what you're doing or (B) have really skilled players in your group - especially the fighter and the healer.Now, we can debate over whether or not you're a good tank or whether your fury is a good healer all day long and it's not really going to get us anywhere. What we have to acknowledge here is that some groups HAVE done what you claim is too hard and they HAVE beaten those bosses with similar setups than you went in with. The real question you should be asking here is what did they do differently that you did not do?

Glenolas

08-08-2009, 08:54 PM

<cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Glenolas wrote</cite>Please don't ever talk about healers again. You evidently don't know much about healers. I value Heal Crit first and foremost, then casting speed. The other stuff I will get when I get. Also, about the +heal, you are incorrect. You can only add to a heal spell by +half of the original heal amount(or what ever it is with +base heal), so you will not always get the full amount of your +heal.</blockquote>For those jumping in mid-thread, remember, we are talking instance running legendary peeps here, not those who have Trak on farm status.I can't argue with you valuing heal crit more, since that's an opinon. However, mathematically, you are simply not correct of crit's value vs +heal. To convince yourself, create your best heal sequence, nothing but heals, end to end as if you were in the fight of the century. Now ask yourself, if I remove 1 heal crit, how much +heal damage do I need to replace it with to have the same healing in that one minute? (same HPS if you prefer to divide by 60)You'll quickly learn a very small value of +heal overcomes the loss of that 1 crit. Numbers like 9 to 15, with faster casting healers needing smaller numbers. Since these values of +heal can be readily exceeded from instance drops, you'll find your HPS increasing more rapidly with +heal replacing +heal critComing from another angle, try this: 100% heal crit is practically never achieved by legendary healers, but when it is their HPS is only 30% more than with no crit. As you pointed out above, +heal caps at 50%. Let me ask you, which is greater, 30% or 50%? In reality, you'll find 50% crit more typical, for a 15% increase in healing, but you'll find at least the low end cap being reached via +heal, so those are approaching +50% increase already, and the other heals aren't too far behind. My example of +1000 to heal will not be at the cap of any legendary healer with Adept III or better spells, other than the low end of the smallest heal. All the class defining heals for all classes will still be amping up.Since it's more achievable for legendary instance crawlers, drive toward the cap of +heal, then let that crit.As for Benevelent Alacrity (cast time speed up) I'm a firm believer in it and grab all I can get. I didn't mention it because it's independent of the +heal/+crit discussion, other than the faster you cast, the more valuable +heal is over +crit.I also didn't mention it because the more BA you have, the less valuable the next +1 is, and it too becomes tradeable against +heal and + crit for any given slot.Hope this helps.

Kari

08-09-2009, 05:25 AM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is it possible to hit Halls of the Forsaken with a single fury healer and a five person group with less than T2 shard armor? Yes...but it won't be easy. Even with the right gear, that zone's still not going to be a complete pushover if you (A) don't know what you're doing or (B) have really skilled players in your group - especially the fighter and the healer.Now, we can debate over whether or not you're a good tank or whether your fury is a good healer all day long and it's not really going to get us anywhere. What we have to acknowledge here is that some groups HAVE done what you claim is too hard and they HAVE beaten those bosses with similar setups than you went in with. The real question you should be asking here is what did they do differently that you did not do?</blockquote>I went through a phase early on in the expansion where I ran this zone all the time trying to get a drop off the last named. This was pre mythical and pre t2 gear. Some of the groups were ideal and blew through the zone, others had poorly geared and poorly matched players. I play a defiler so the solo healer class was different, but i believe some of my groups could match the low armor stats that the OP is citing. The group makeup and armor makes that group a bad fit for the zone, but it should have been doable if every group member followed the script and was persistant. Realistically if you go in to a middle difficulty zone with T1 armor you should expect to die a lot in the process. I did this many times while still in T1 armor and I would have to cast my mender so we could continue. In all the times that I went there, we were unable to complete the zone only one time due to group members not following the script. In that case the tank was following the script but the dps was refusing to run to ghost to cure, since they didnt believe they were taking damage. But the whole time they were using up my healing resources that should have been reserved for the tank and then he would die from spike damage. Unfortunately when I adjusted by letting them just die, the group lacked the dps to win the fights. So if you are dying a lot and not makeing any improvements, I would suggest watching all the group members to ensure the whole group is following the script and not just the tank and healer.

ChrisRay

08-10-2009, 09:26 AM

My defiler can gain about +1000 additional warding from 1000 + heal. yet my templar reactives cap at around 350. I have never fully understood this.

Guy De Alsace

08-10-2009, 09:30 AM

Voice Chat + Uber Tank + Uber Heals + Several Truckloads of Pots + No Lag + Decent FPS + Beer (or fresh tea) + Being Awake + No AFK's throughout Dungeon= WIN!<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kendricke

08-10-2009, 09:38 AM

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Voice Chat + Uber Tank + Uber Heals + Several Truckloads of Pots + No Lag + Decent FPS + Beer (or fresh tea) + Being Awake + No AFK's throughout Dungeon= WIN!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Well sure, but it's certainly not the only scenario required for winning.

Noaani

08-10-2009, 12:38 PM

Lord Hackenslash

08-10-2009, 04:29 PM

<cite>ChrisRay wrote:</cite><blockquote> My defiler can gain about +1000 additional warding from 1000 + heal. yet my templar reactives cap at around 350. I have never fully understood this.</blockquote>the 350 is applied 5 times for single target reactive and 9 times for the group version.1750 healing on single target reactive3150 healing for group reactivenot bad for 350 points of heal.Its more complex than that but you get the idea.

Gisallo

08-12-2009, 12:07 AM

First I don't think we have enough info. Was the Fury trying to dps when you died? I have sure seen that. Heck I was on a run on my ranger where the fury was actively trying to beat me. This lead to the tank dying and the dirge thanking me for being such a good kiter of the mobs so the fury could rez the tank. What was you jewelry? Was it dps or tank/defensive? Were you in defensive stance? Did you have a defensive or offensive sheild? Just saying legendary there really doesn't tell us much what were the parses?I have tanked, healed and dps these zones, all of them prior to being mythed, heck my ranger still doesn't have his fabled (been lazy). when I tanked them on my zerker It was in no shard gear, then slowly full t1 then eventually t2. First I tired having a mix and match of hybrid and "tank" armor, then realized I needed at lkeast 5 pieces of tank gear to stay standing. I even found out I had to stance dance to stay standing. Thats because there is a clear progression in these zones and if you move onto the next step before mastering the first you will have problems. I think thats pretty much right as well. I mean lets be honest. If you have access via shards, not just drops, to better and better gear, there needs to be a progression. I know I for one am BORED of NHT but I still run it on my healer because there is an item in there I would like (yes I can solo heal the thing now because I am a lot better geared than in November BUT there is still that one item I would like). The purpose behind this tiered system is to get people to run the instances they can and once those are easy then move onto the next one. This is how you get people to hang around. Do you need an ideal group for SOME of the zones, yeah, but thats just a way to make them more challeging. DO you need an ideal group for ALL of them? Not that I know of. I have done the zone you speak of with a SK who refused to go into defenive stance because he thinks SKs are dps, no bards, an illy who couldn't parse, a swashie, ranger, mystic, and a second healer but can't remember the class. I have done others with fury, sk, zerker, ranger, swashie, assassin, necro (that was an INTERESTING Nu'roga run where my zerker got the title killed by a shiny because we didn't know the one aggroed and was the key mob). The zones can be done with hodge podge groups but they are going to be harder and so you really need to be on your toes. There are people, like me who LOVE instances. I actually like doing instances with a good group more than raids. I don't want all of the instances to be done with any group of any player skill level. Thats fine for some, but I like challenges too. This expansion tried to serve us all. DOn't care about group make up, don't like the gear grind? You have instances for that? Like the gear grind but don't like raiding there are instances for you. Like raiding but also want somethign to do when you are at the mob that still wipes you and want a challenge, there are zones for you. They tried to make something for everyone in this expansion and people still complain? Oi.

Layl

08-12-2009, 10:30 AM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>... So are we just singled out? ...</blockquote>As a squishier tank... having an appropriate healer is a must. A fury is going to have a really hard time keeping up a tank with low mit/avi and 10k hp. (I can keep up a 10k hp tank with my warden, but I have no [Removed for Content] time to cure fears and such that land on pull)... so you will likely want a shaman in your group.Not all zones are created equal. Some zones are down right aggravating for even well geared groups (lguk). Some zones, while rather easy... require a bit of coordination (cavern). All of the TSO instances have an 'expected difficulty' given by the devs. It sounds like you were running Halls of the Forsaken, which is more of a moderate difficulty zone.When I started out with my zerk (MC + legendary RoK), I was running mainly Scion of Ice, The Deep Forge, Evernight Abbey, Obelisk of Ahkzul, and the solo shard quest to get geared out with jewelry and my T1 gear.After that, I was running running The Anathema, Najena's Hollow and Mistmyr Manor... etc. The drops should start to get decent, and you can start building your T2 Armor set.

Gisallo

08-12-2009, 04:18 PM

<cite>Laylle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>... So are we just singled out? ...</blockquote>As a squishier tank... having an appropriate healer is a must. A fury is going to have a really hard time keeping up a tank with low mit/avi and 10k hp. (I can keep up a 10k hp tank with my warden, but I have no [Removed for Content] time to cure fears and such that land on pull)... so you will likely want a shaman in your group.Not all zones are created equal. Some zones are down right aggravating for even well geared groups (lguk). Some zones, while rather easy... require a bit of coordination (cavern). All of the TSO instances have an 'expected difficulty' given by the devs. It sounds like you were running Halls of the Forsaken, which is more of a moderate difficulty zone.When I started out with my zerk (MC + legendary RoK), I was running mainly Scion of Ice, The Deep Forge, Evernight Abbey, Obelisk of Ahkzul, and the solo shard quest to get geared out with jewelry and my T1 gear.After that, I was running running The Anathema, Najena's Hollow and Mistmyr Manor... etc. The drops should start to get decent, and you can start building your T2 Armor set.</blockquote>I actually did some thinking overnight after posting a rather similar thing to you Laylle and I think I have found the problem. There is a disconnect. Some people think the game is broken down this way; Solo, Instance, Raid...period. Solo is pretty self explanatory, you are solo wandering the open areas. Instance? Here you are getting a group, ANY group as long as it includes tank and a healer and doing instances. By any group I mean not only class make up, but they feel you should just have say gear that would be "blue" in terms of level comparison, and even skill should not be an big issue because "real" min maxing should be for raids not for instances because instances are the haven for the casual to them. Its only when you get to raids, that the people who break the game down this simplistically, when you get to a place where zone/gear progression exists within the same tier, where group make up can make or break the raid etc. These people (not saying right or wrong) often feel that instances are for "them" and when you start introducing raid like aspects (group make up, zone progression, gear progression linked to this zone progression) they get upset. I have grouped with PUGs that clearly had this mindset. I am not the time to just quit such groups so I have gotten some nice repair bills. Being in a group where you KNOW there is not enough dps and you say it and someone says "then what do you suggest?" and you feel bad saying "stop getting repair bills and leave Korsha for somewhere else." You then feel like an eliteist butt head but it was the truth. This expansion has the instances for groups of all gear, spell and skill levels, people just have to acknowledge that Instances are the real back bone of this game, due to the greater number of them, the short lock out timers and the need for shards even for t4 patterns. Because of this the instances had to be made so that even good (non-avatar) raiding types could feel a bit of challenge in a couple of them when they were gearing up. Once people realize this game is not as simple as Solo, Instance, Raid then it becomes clear but some people I think haven't done that yet.