Paladin Class Issues. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Boli32

08-05-2009, 08:36 PM

Having discussed these as a community... elsewhere... below are what we consider to the issues with the paladin class as a whole. We have tried to be complete as possible and I wll ask you kindly not to start arguments on this thread but to take them outside.We don't need a major overhaul... just a flurry of minor fixes; and a couple of major changes to our spells; we have tried not to ask for too much this is just a list of what needs looking at and I hope you will take it as so.StonewallPriority: HighProblem: This ability is vastly underpowered; it is by far of the weakest "immunity" buttons of all the tanks, and it is the only one we have. It may be comparable to the guardian's block but stonewall costs 180 AA to get where as the block ability only costs 23 AA and its on a longer recast timer than block. (60s vs 90s)Suggested fix: Add a health minimum (30%?) to cause it to trigger and have 2 triggers. To keep with the paladin flavour some people have mentioned a large ward to be instant cast the moment a trigger fires; and although I am amiable to that idea I would prefer 2 triggers over 1 trigger and a ward.Paladin UtilityPriority: HighProblem: All a paladin's utility is easily wrapped under the heading of "hey paladins can heal"; no considering that healers can also heal. At best it gives flexibility to our role but does not grant additional utility. A raid with a paladin in it performs the same as on without a paladin in it; especially later in the expansion where people have geared up more. Currently right now paladins bring the ability to tank grab and hold agro; we have nothing outside of this to offer a raid force.Suggested fix: If the "paladins can heal" angle is going to be used throughout the paladin utility line then making sure it both stacks with current healers and differs significantly so that bringing a Paladin along will be beneficial to the raid; a raid/group wide heal/ward proc perhaps.Alternative Fix: Moving away from the healing aspects something as simple as increasing the range of all spells by 5 will be a tweak which other classes will see and enjoy he fact they have a paladin in the raid force.Alternative Fix: Or something less subtle and more powerful, 10% reuse/casting speed perhaps?As you can see by the number of suggestions this is a issue which all paladins feel strongly about and should be addressed.Divine FavorPriority: MediumProblem: The 12s or 6s daze/stifle is just a ridiculous drawback to this spell; even if we have 2 escape deaths trigger on us (i.e. a healer casts theirs and ours trigger) we are still stuck with the 12 daze/stifle to deal with.Suggested fix: Originally in the fighter revamp we had a 2 stoneskin trigger be cast upon us when it triggered instead if the daze/stifle. We would like that back considering we are meant to be the 2nd most defensive tank.Alternative Fix: If that isn't possible having the 4 set bonus remove the 12s daze/stifle entirely would be ideal... after all it is not like we are asking for a second trigger (bloodletter).Aura of the CrusaderPriority: MediumProblem: This ability does not work against incurable effects making the usage entirely hit and miss.Suggested fix: Make it so the 20s immunity is granted regardless of whether or not anything is dispelled.Power IssuesPriority: Medium / LowProblem: In order to be effective a Paladin has to invest heavily in power proc gear; whilst this is a suitable gear solution in this expansion there still remains the disparity between power usage and overall effect gained from most of a paladin's spell collection.Suggested fix: Re-evaluate the power costs for most of the combat arts/spells and compare them to equivalent ones from warriors/brawlers/SKs, and you'll see a disparity in that we often expend the same power for less damage. Reducing the power costs to closer match the output effect. Add this to the fact we are casting heals as well causes us to be complete power hogs.Alternative Fix: Modify or add power procs to some of our spells; mainly to help those paladins who do not yet have access to power proc gear.Holy Avenger (Mythical Clicky)Priority: LowProblem: The cast speed is too slow for a clicky item a often resists even against a fully debuffed mob; also if the mob in question is dispelled the Avenger is lost causing paladins to change targets on another mob and back again in order for it to be up for its entire duration. Overall this is the weakest of all the mythical click is an aside from heroic zones or soloing it is relatively useless especially in raid zones.Suggested fix: In truth if this was a permanent pet it will not be game breaking and add much needed utility (the heals are worth more than the dps it does). If this is not possible casting it as a temporary pet we can direct to our targets instead of having to cast on specific targets will help enormously; and fix at least the problems concerning resists/cancelled earlyAlternative Fix: Remove clicky entirely and add a secondary proc that is useful in all situations.Knight's Stance (Defensive Stance)Priority: LowUnlike warrior buffs this has no parry on it; considering in the fighter changes we gained parry; it only seems natural to put parry back on the defensive stance again.Demonstration of FaithPriority: LowProblem: This ward is one shotted through even against solo mobs; and the cast speed is painfully slow compared to our other heals (2s Vs 1.5s).Suggested fix: Considering the SK reactive equivalent is on a 1.5s cast speed DoF should be reduced to the same.Alternative/Additional Fix: To deal with the fact it is on shotted a lot of the time increasing the ward will be the first step; although I would prefer it if the ward granted additional protection i.e. +5 mitigation whist the ward is up. It was the original idea to have our fighter avoid (Resolute Faith) grant +5 mitigation; attaching the same effect to our ward will give us added utility.Divine AuraPriority: LowProblem: Whilst this is a powerful ability in its own right; it is often overlooked because of its issues rather than its benefits. I will admit that increasing its immunity/recast further will only widen the gap between paladins and Shadowknights and will not be implemented; the casting speed however is a drawback; which does not unbalance the classes and slants more in favour of user skill than user luckSuggested fix: Reduce the cast speed of Divine Aura significantly ideally instant cast as it is an emergency spell and should be used as such.Arch HealPriority: LowProblem: According to the description; it is a large heal; in practice however because of the tweaks to our own heals since this was implemented arch heal costs significantly more grants less heath per power and casts slower. All in all it is an inferior heal and as far as I know no paladin actually speced this.Suggested Fix: Significantly change the arch heal to more match the description given, i.e. increase the amount healed.Alternative Fix: Change the end line of the healing tree to be something more than “just another heal”:- A buff which procs wards/heals across he entire group/raid- Adds a significant hate portion to all heals- A large regenerative ward- vastly increase all a paladin’s heals.There are numerous things that can be done to this lacklustre ability; more so because very few use it in order to allow heals and tanking to combine; as was the original envisage of the paladin class.Please respond here or.... elsewhere if you think anything is needed to be added / changed.

Kahling

08-05-2009, 09:23 PM

Wow if I were to sit down and write something like this it would be identical to the above, you totally hit the nail on the head there mate, well thought out and I totally agree with everything you have said 100%.

Chisa

08-05-2009, 09:25 PM

Nice ideas there, but would it not further the OP'ness Sk's and Pally's already are? I mean how can you ask for MORE when you already are considered one of the most Overpowered classes in the game?

Boli32

08-05-2009, 11:10 PM

Every class has issues I am posting ours; two very large issues and a slew of mirror tweaks. I suggest you take the time to read through carefully before replying; remember these are brought to from a PvE perspective.

Maamadex

08-06-2009, 05:20 AM

Its not about being overpowered, which I don't think we are. If you look at aa's in general and compare them to our counterpart (sk) we got hosed.. Look at Stonewall and then look at Furor. Stonewall is both a joke and a slap in the face as an endline. If i could put it any simpler, if i was leveling a sk I would get aa like crazy to get Furor, the same isn't true at all about Stonewall and a Paladin. Stonewall is pretty weak.

Odysia

08-06-2009, 09:52 AM

"Nice ideas there, but would it not further the OP'ness Sk's and Pally's already are? I mean how can you ask for MORE when you already are considered one of the most Overpowered classes in the game?"This is my only real concern at the moment. Personally, I reckon Pals are one of the best overall balanced classes in the game. When I think about whats really broken and what needs fixing, the issues are trivial in comparison to other classes (I play several). The danger to us is that a lot of players seem to think that PAL=SK.I see a lot of posts, and chat, along the lines of "Crusaders must be nerfed" followed by an arguement that is exclusively about how OP SKs are.No, Pals do not need a nerf. They are about right. SKs DPS output needs fixing in relation to pure dps classes, that does not mean that BOTH crusader classes need adjustment.

Stonestrong

08-06-2009, 01:02 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Having discussed these as a community... elsewhere... below are what we consider to the issues with the paladin class as a whole. We have tried to be complete as possible and I wll ask you kindly not to start arguments on this thread but to take them outside.We don't need a major overhaul... just a flurry of minor fixes; and a couple of major changes to our spells; we have tried not to ask for too much this is just a list of what needs looking at and I hope you will take it as so.StonewallPriority: HighProblem: This ability is vastly underpowered; it is by far of the weakest "immunity" buttons of all the tanks, and it is the only one we have. It may be comparable to the guardian's block but stonewall costs 180 AA to get where as the block ability only costs 23 AA and its on a longer recast timer than block. (60s vs 90s)Suggested fix: Add a health minimum (30%?) to cause it to trigger and have 2 triggers. To keep with the paladin flavour some people have mentioned a large ward to be instant cast the moment a trigger fires; and although I am amiable to that idea I would prefer 2 triggers over 1 trigger and a ward.Paladin UtilityPriority: HighProblem: All a paladin's utility is easily wrapped under the heading of "hey paladins can heal"; no considering that healers can also heal. At best it gives flexibility to our role but does not grant additional utility. A raid with a paladin in it performs the same as on without a paladin in it; especially later in the expansion where people have geared up more. Currently right now paladins bring the ability to tank grab and hold agro; we have nothing outside of this to offer a raid force.Suggested fix: If the "paladins can heal" angle is going to be used throughout the paladin utility line then making sure it both stacks with current healers and differs significantly so that bringing a Paladin along will be beneficial to the raid; a raid/group wide heal/ward proc perhaps.Alternative Fix: Moving away from the healing aspects something as simple as increasing the range of all spells by 5 will be a tweak which other classes will see and enjoy he fact they have a paladin in the raid force.Alternative Fix: Or something less subtle and more powerful, 10% reuse/casting speed perhaps?As you can see by the number of suggestions this is a issue which all paladins feel strongly about and should be addressed.Divine FavorPriority: MediumProblem: The 12s or 6s daze/stifle is just a ridiculous drawback to this spell; even if we have 2 escape deaths trigger on us (i.e. a healer casts theirs and ours trigger) we are still stuck with the 12 daze/stifle to deal with.Suggested fix: Originally in the fighter revamp we had a 2 stoneskin trigger be cast upon us when it triggered instead if the daze/stifle. We would like that back considering we are meant to be the 2nd most defensive tank.Alternative Fix: If that isn't possible having the 4 set bonus remove the 12s daze/stifle entirely would be ideal... after all it is not like we are asking for a second trigger (bloodletter).Aura of the CrusaderPriority: MediumProblem: This ability does not work against incurable effects making the usage entirely hit and miss.Suggested fix: Make it so the 20s immunity is granted regardless of whether or not anything is dispelled.Power IssuesPriority: Medium / LowProblem: In order to be effective a Paladin has to invest heavily in power proc gear; whilst this is a suitable gear solution in this expansion there still remains the disparity between power usage and overall effect gained from most of a paladin's spell collection.Suggested fix: Re-evaluate the power costs for most of the combat arts/spells and compare them to equivalent ones from warriors/brawlers/SKs, and you'll see a disparity in that we often expend the same power for less damage. Reducing the power costs to closer match the output effect. Add this to the fact we are casting heals as well causes us to be complete power hogs.Alternative Fix: Modify or add power procs to some of our spells; mainly to help those paladins who do not yet have access to power proc gear.Holy Avenger (Mythical Clicky)Priority: LowProblem: The cast speed is too slow for a clicky item a often resists even against a fully debuffed mob; also if the mob in question is dispelled the Avenger is lost causing paladins to change targets on another mob and back again in order for it to be up for its entire duration. Overall this is the weakest of all the mythical click is an aside from heroic zones or soloing it is relatively useless especially in raid zones.Suggested fix: In truth if this was a permanent pet it will not be game breaking and add much needed utility (the heals are worth more than the dps it does). If this is not possible casting it as a temporary pet we can direct to our targets instead of having to cast on specific targets will help enormously; and fix at least the problems concerning resists/cancelled earlyAlternative Fix: Remove clicky entirely and add a secondary proc that is useful in all situations.Knight's Stance (Defensive Stance)Priority: LowUnlike warrior buffs this has no parry on it; considering in the fighter changes we gained parry; it only seems natural to put parry back on the defensive stance again.Demonstration of FaithPriority: LowProblem: This ward is one shotted through even against solo mobs; and the cast speed is painfully slow compared to our other heals (2s Vs 1.5s).Suggested fix: Considering the SK reactive equivalent is on a 1.5s cast speed DoF should be reduced to the same.Alternative/Additional Fix: To deal with the fact it is on shotted a lot of the time increasing the ward will be the first step; although I would prefer it if the ward granted additional protection i.e. +5 mitigation whist the ward is up. It was the original idea to have our fighter avoid (Resolute Faith) grant +5 mitigation; attaching the same effect to our ward will give us added utility.Divine AuraPriority: LowProblem: Whilst this is a powerful ability in its own right; it is often overlooked because of its issues rather than its benefits. I will admit that increasing its immunity/recast further will only widen the gap between paladins and Shadowknights and will not be implemented; the casting speed however is a drawback; which does not unbalance the classes and slants more in favour of user skill than user luckSuggested fix: Reduce the cast speed of Divine Aura significantly ideally instant cast as it is an emergency spell and should be used as such.Arch HealPriority: LowProblem: According to the description; it is a large heal; in practice however because of the tweaks to our own heals since this was implemented arch heal costs significantly more grants less heath per power and casts slower. All in all it is an inferior heal and as far as I know no paladin actually speced this.Suggested Fix: Significantly change the arch heal to more match the description given, i.e. increase the amount healed.Alternative Fix: Change the end line of the healing tree to be something more than “just another heal”:- A buff which procs wards/heals across he entire group/raid- Adds a significant hate portion to all heals- A large regenerative ward- vastly increase all a paladin’s heals.There are numerous things that can be done to this lacklustre ability; more so because very few use it in order to allow heals and tanking to combine; as was the original envisage of the paladin class.Please respond here or.... elsewhere if you think anything is needed to be added / changed.</blockquote>/signed

Maamadex

08-06-2009, 01:13 PM

Stonewall and Divine Favor would be the main things that concern me, they need to be looked at/changed/improved. Good list of issues that most paladins agree on, and good ideas.

Boli32

08-06-2009, 03:17 PM

<cite>Kimmble@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>"Nice ideas there, but would it not further the OP'ness Sk's and Pally's already are? I mean how can you ask for MORE when you already are considered one of the most Overpowered classes in the game?"This is my only real concern at the moment. Personally, I reckon Pals are one of the best overall balanced classes in the game. When I think about whats really broken and what needs fixing, the issues are trivial in comparison to other classes (I play several). The danger to us is that a lot of players seem to think that PAL=SK.I see a lot of posts, and chat, along the lines of "Crusaders must be nerfed" followed by an arguement that is exclusively about how OP SKs are.No, Pals do not need a nerf. They are about right. SKs DPS output needs fixing in relation to pure dps classes, that does not mean that BOTH crusader classes need adjustment.</blockquote>We are not asking for much at all; we now we are right where we want to be... but this is an imperfect game.. and there are spells/abilitys which are imperfect and need fixing. We have two major issues and a slew of minor tweaks.

Jaale

08-06-2009, 04:48 PM

Gotta agree with the OP these need to be looked at, our lack of spike dmg control can be crippling. And lets not let SK and Pally's get mixed under the same "Crusaders are over powered" heading. They are miles apart.

Marcusaval

08-09-2009, 08:57 AM

I've played a Paladin almost since the beginning of EQII. I am in total agreement that Paladins need some fixes particularly in the 'utility' aspect. My raiding guild recently installed a SK in the mage group just for his casting buffs.So far I am still playing OT but as it has been stated a Paladin offers little to raid outside of being a tank. We are certainly are not healers and our DPS with the exception of very well geared Paladins in the right group set up is nothing to right home about.Our Stoneskin end line ability is poor and our defensive stance is the only one that lacks parry out of all the tanks.The stun and stifle on devine favour makes this pretty useless.SOE promised consulation with players when they stepped back from the abyss recently on fighter changers but we dont seem to be getting much attention.I dont think anyone is asking for the moon but I dont want to go back to the wilderness years where Paladins were not wanted in a raid set up at all.

Chisa

08-09-2009, 10:16 AM

<cite>Marcusavalon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've played a Paladin almost since the beginning of EQII. I am in total agreement that Paladins need some fixes particularly in the 'utility' aspect. My raiding guild recently installed a SK in the mage group just for his casting buffs.So far I am still playing OT but as it has been stated a Paladin offers little to raid outside of being a tank. We are certainly are not healers and our DPS with the exception of very well geared Paladins in the right group set up is nothing to right home about.Our Stoneskin end line ability is poor and our defensive stance is the only one that lacks parry out of all the tanks.The stun and stifle on devine favour makes this pretty useless.SOE promised consulation with players when they stepped back from the abyss recently on fighter changers but we dont seem to be getting much attention.I dont think anyone is asking for the moon but I dont want to go back to the wilderness years where Paladins were not wanted in a raid set up at all.</blockquote>I do have to agree with you. SK's seem to be wanted way more than Paladins are nowadays.

Kigneer

08-09-2009, 11:10 AM

And this is what I meant about a fix list -- right down to the details (and how it's done in other game forums to address the issues to the devs). Good job!The main concern I still have about the class overall is that with this TSO expansion DPS is what rules (when healers are talking about DPS -- and we're not talking Furys here -- there's a problem). A well equipped Pally will still be bypassed even by a lower level scout with more inferior gear for end-game content. All anyone sees is a "tank" and one that doesn't have mitigation of a Guard, or the DPS of a SK (or the hate).The "balance" I would seek is a role of a Pally, not just a "Jack of all trades, master of none". Something for us to be in demand for end-game content (as any other class should be). Endline spells are nice to have and to get fixed (like Divine Favor, a practically useless spell that can kill not only the Pally, the rest of the group if they're the MT and is stunned so long any class can steal the hate away and it's a wipe), but Paladins need to have a role in the game more than a second-class tank. All I hear is Pallys are hard to work with, and worse, a lot of other tanks and classes don't understand how our spells work as they don't work with them in raids much (as they're not invited)...they see a level 60 spell and regard it inferior (Resolute Faith, for example [and this is the cranky comment from some of the best raid geared tanks on Permafrost]).Paladins are a mystery to too many other classes, other tanks can rolloff what SKs have in comparison, but if you mention something like Smite Evil or Consecrate, it's like "What?". Spend so much time educating other classes, but it doesn't help as they don't want to understand as Pallys don't offer what they want (hate gain tank/DPS).Give us a role, but just some "other" tank in a full roster of tanks!

Wulfborne

09-13-2009, 07:09 PM

/signedAwesome list.~Hawke

Eboncross

09-14-2009, 02:41 AM

Agree, nice ideas alsoStonewall is a joke. I dont even waste aa on itDivine Favor hardly use it due to stun

Maamadex

09-14-2009, 10:41 AM

Stonewall may be pretty pathetic for the aa's it takes to get, but its still worth having. Barely. I use it all the time tho.

Prestissimo

09-28-2009, 08:31 AM

nevermind, it's working again.

NANEEJE

10-01-2009, 01:33 PM

Paladins may yell at me for this, but... my role, simple, I am an off tank to a SK. If i want to continue to raid with my friends , this is the role I must fill. So why not be the best off tank there is in the game. Two issues,Reuse on lay of Hands, or... maximum damage it heals for. 6k, maybe high 6's once in a while, but... our role is clearly defined, and I wish the max was able to be pushed far greater to make up for 10k shots from extremely hard bosses in the game. I love our class and the list posted was PERFECT!!!, also, geared towards main tanks. I use Stonewall / Intercept hand in hand, if stonewall is up, I will Intercede immediately. I want stonewall upgraded, and this is my number one agreement with the list posted.Two, Deathmarch from an Sk, clearly overpowered. I am not asking for Deathmarch to be nerfed, I am asking that Rescue or Holy Ground be able to outpower DM. I can't believe how stupid it is that i can blow Holy Ground, Sigil, Decree, Sneering Assault, faithful Cry, Clarion, and then I finally get the mob. Holy Ground should, and I do mean should, pull the single mob I am targeting off of a SK using Deathmarch when he isn't even targeting the add. That is my issue. Thank you for listening. I hope the top list of issues is viewed by Developers.

Kigneer

10-01-2009, 02:02 PM

<cite>NANEEJE wrote:</cite><blockquote>Two, Deathmarch from an Sk, clearly overpowered. I am not asking for Deathmarch to be nerfed, I am asking that Rescue or Holy Ground be able to outpower DM. I can't believe how stupid it is that i can blow Holy Ground, Sigil, Decree, Sneering Assault, faithful Cry, Clarion, and then I finally get the mob. Holy Ground should, and I do mean should, pull the single mob I am targeting off of a SK using Deathmarch when he isn't even targeting the add. That is my issue. Thank you for listening. I hope the top list of issues is viewed by Developers.</blockquote>Yep, but don't tell this to the Pallys running around here who claim to *never* have issues with gaining or holding hate. As their first response is "you can't tank", not that the tools we have can't match the SK's hate gain ability.Second the suggestion.

AziBam

10-05-2009, 04:02 PM

Naneeje, the ability affecting your situation is most likely Grave Sacrament. The hate on DM is actually pretty weak these days. When it was first revamped several years ago.. (KoS maybe? can't recall) DM was a very good hate tool. These days it's pretty watered down for hate. Grave sacrament has a positional increase built in for each time the mob is damaged for the duration of the effect. So, your MT hits Grave Sacrament and gains hate, you hit Holy Ground and take hate, until the next time the mob takes damage making the SK move up a hate position again. Your MT needs to coordinate with you when he is using that ability. It seems that a lot of SKs use that just like any other blue AE which isn't always the smart thing to do.Edit to correct the spelling of Naneeje. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Had the double e in the wrong place.

OrcSlayer96

10-06-2009, 07:49 PM

I have to agree with AziBam on this, i have lost track of the number of times i have pointed out to a SK that they are using Grave Sacrament at the wrong time. If they are picking up the mobs because they are the MT or the MT died, more power to them but when they flip mobs to the raid/group because they want to top the parses, they get a earfull from me. It would be along the same lines as tossing Holy ground on a set of mobs that a berserker is tanking just to gank them. Most of the SK's that have done this plead ignorance that they did not realize the hate position is there. Those that dispute that they cast the spell i only have to pull up ACT to show them the error of their ways. I use ACT more for problem solving than constant posting to the DPSers, it can help fix alot of things in those situations and if the dpser continues to cause trouble after explaining/warning, they are out of there. The difference between FOTM SK's and old time SK's on Crushbone is night and day when i group with them. Some things are truely lost in translation on the 10 day power leveld players and ebayers...<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Boli32

10-07-2009, 03:26 AM

GS means a level 30 SK could pull agro from a level 80 pally if the attack hits.It however it not worth moaning about and I'm certinaly not gonna lead the bandwagon on nerfing SKs in our particular class issues list. I'd prefer it if things stayed on topic and post relavent issues to the paladin class that need looking at.As for the OP talking about not enough OT tools in our arsenal I'll have to disagree > Fighter avoid (with our high block ours is pretty powerful) > Intercede as again all fighters get it but we can reduce the recast to a significant degree > Holy Ground Pick up the named/adds whatever our initial hate position > Ward & Lay on Hands both castable on the MTIn short we have the tools to do the OT job imho more effectivly than the other tanks; and indeed that is our role 90% of the time in raids. We only loose out to SKs and Zerkers in this reguard not because we lack OT tools, but because we lack "effective" buffs to grant to the the raid force. +base heals and +physical mit may be handy initially but once the raid is geared up they are useless.In short... there are more important issues to be worried about.

Maamadex

10-08-2009, 05:06 AM

Yeah I think its our basic utility thats in question at times, compared to our counterpart the sk or even zerker group buffs. Its not aggro or other stuff or our myth. Its just passive good ole fashioned usefulness.

JackBurtonBTLC

10-13-2009, 07:03 PM

<cite>NANEEJE wrote:</cite><blockquote>my role, simple, I am an off tank to a SK. If i want to continue to raid with my friends , this is the role I must fill. So why not be the best off tank there is in the game.</blockquote>I will never be second to an SK. SK are evil! EVVVIIIILLLL! But seriously, are SK better than paladins as a main tank?

Maamadex

10-14-2009, 05:25 AM

SK's are never better than us, they are eeevil like the fruuuwitts of the devilllll.

Prestissimo

10-14-2009, 03:50 PM

SKs have better damage, bloodletter, death march, furror, feign death and evac. Thats about it as far as one ups on us. We have amends, sigil, faithful cry, raid armament, better block, and base heals increase which no other tanks have anything like that (spare the faithful cry which most tanks get something of a similar nature). Our niche is supposed to be defined by these things that we have, however, unlike other tanks, we have to face easily reached hate transfer caps that can cause us to lose large portions of our hate, and our "utility" which includes helping make squishes less squishy and helping give the healers a bit of a boost to heals is as others have stated relatively useless once players gear up. That leaves us with the temp gain from sigil, faithful cry which is not that special, and better block as our end content defining attributes.When not counting the caps, paladins have more potential than any other tank, we just do it in a different way. When looking at it from a min max perspective at the cap points of gear, paladins will look inferrior because on a regular basis we face several different hard caps and lost potential in our functions that other tanks just do not hardly if ever even approach or have to worry about which means that they can keep gaining where as we have to completely alter our itemization or methods in how we performance in order to continue utilizing increased amounts of certain things.Another issue that we run into is that our best role comparatively is as an OT due to our hate position abilities and either OT or MT when the raid force is gearing up because of our versatility and ability to be flexible and work with unideal setups and this translates into spike damage being a huge and regular concern for us since it's something that we will be combatting regularly in our role yet we are the single tank that has nothing to counter it. The list pretty much sums up the class issues other than the fact that there seems to be an underlying agenda at soe to hate on the paladins because they somehow magically always break or nerf something of ours in every single patch without fail wether "intentional or not" or they make changes that poke at our weaknesses more than the other tanks.

Terrius

10-15-2009, 06:02 PM

TariussAB: Aeralik any chance you can look into the pally AA stonewall? it seems a tad underpowered compared to other fighters Aeralik: stonewall looks a lot like guardian block to me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so are you saying that ability is underpowered too? TariussAB: yes actually, I think they both suck Aeralik <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Rothgar: I play a guardian and I'm fine with Block From Dev chat, was bored figured I'd post to point out Aeralik apparently things that Stonewall is fine >.<

Prestissimo

10-15-2009, 08:01 PM

And he will remain ignorant to the entire reason why it is inferior because he refuses to look at the class as an individual which includes that the guardians have a substantial number of other blocking abilities.Seeing as he's incapable of discerning the difference between a TSO tree's end line ability that costs 2 points and one that is an EoF end tree ability that costs one, this once again raises the question of wether or not he should be incharge of anything that utilizes numbers or balance. Either that, or he fails to grasp the difference between requiring 20 aa points and costing 1 and being a bonus ability gained via aa versus "requiring" 180 and costing 2 and being 2 of the classes main defining achievements which would then prompt a very valid reason for asking if he does understand just how to balance classes.Too bad someone didn't bring up that the attack rating on a wizard's mythical weapon and the attack rating on an assassin's mythical look pretty identical and since the wizards can't auto attack for anything near assassins the wizards obviously are in need of a huge boosting while he's taking the time to compare "like" things.

Stonestrong

10-17-2009, 10:57 AM

<cite>NANEEJE wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins may yell at me for this, but... my role, simple, I am an off tank to a SK. If i want to continue to raid with my friends , this is the role I must fill. So why not be the best off tank there is in the game. Two issues,Reuse on lay of Hands, or... maximum damage it heals for. 6k, maybe high 6's once in a while, but... our role is clearly defined, and I wish the max was able to be pushed far greater to make up for 10k shots from extremely hard bosses in the game. I love our class and the list posted was PERFECT!!!, also, geared towards main tanks. I use Stonewall / Intercept hand in hand, if stonewall is up, I will Intercede immediately. I want stonewall upgraded, and this is my number one agreement with the list posted.Two, Deathmarch from an Sk, clearly overpowered. I am not asking for Deathmarch to be nerfed, I am asking that Rescue or Holy Ground be able to outpower DM. I can't believe how stupid it is that i can blow Holy Ground, Sigil, Decree, Sneering Assault, faithful Cry, Clarion, and then I finally get the mob. Holy Ground should, and I do mean should, pull the single mob I am targeting off of a SK using Deathmarch when he isn't even targeting the add. That is my issue. Thank you for listening. I hope the top list of issues is viewed by Developers.</blockquote>I think you are confusing Death March with Grave Sacrament. If you use holy ground you will yank mobs away from Death March no problem. While holy ground is up anytime you hit a mob you are moved to the top of the hate list. When an SK hits GS it is pretty much like Holy Ground except he is at the top anytime anybody hits the mobs. So you have holy ground up while he has Sacrament and you wont have much luck pulling the mob away if you are in a raid. Anytime anybody elses damage hits those mobs they will go right back to the SK.

Prestissimo

10-25-2009, 03:49 AM

Seeing as other tanks get some form of added bonus to their raid buff via AAs (or at least zerkers, monks, bruisers, and sks do, don't know for sure on guardians but highly suspect they do) and the paladin recieves nothing in addition to their base heal buff, personally I believe it would be a nice improvement to add aa buffable reduce beneficial reuse to our raid buff (1% per point would be fine imo) since thats one of the nicer things to get boosted as a healer and it would go hand in hand with paladins being associated with healing larger amounts and quicker and would help offset our complete and thurough lack of anti-spike damage that the developers are refusing to acknowledge exists.Such a change would also make it a little more noticeable to the healers when we're not there and gives us something else to chose from that would help our and others survivability especially when reach the point of running out of worthwhile choices for aa selections.

therodge

10-25-2009, 04:38 AM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote</cite>I think we are sitting pretty honestly my only real gripe about the class is that the heals and wards suck (well atleast at 80 they were nice at lower levels) id like to see all heals turned into wards and the amount warded/healed increased by 20% but thats just me. (expecially the group heal)

VALKOR

10-27-2009, 04:09 PM

I agree that dealing with spike damage is currently the biggest issue that needs to be fixed for paladins. As Divine Aura is a shared ability with SKs, any changes to it wouldn't actually widen or close the gap between the two classes so I think the wording by the OP is incorrect for Divine Aura.To speak to the comment attributed to Aeralik, a 182 point TSO endline ability shouldn't be the same as a very low AA cost guardian block. Or to put it another way, when paladins use both TSO endline abilities at once and still can't manage half of what the single SK Furor ability accomplishes, you've got a definite problem.As posted elsewhere, 5 of the 6 fighter classes have 1 or 2 full 100% block abilities at their disposal that run for anywhere from 10 to 15 seconds whereas one lone class, the paladin, has zip, zero, zilch. The best a paladin can muster is a single 50% block ability for 10 seconds, which as you might imagine, just doesn't cut it for spike damage that does more than 50% of the paladin's health. There are a couple of ways to solve it but it is certainly the highest priority in my opinion as well.