Where exactly is this advantage I keep hearing about? [Archive]

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Ezariel

07-27-2009, 01:09 PM

I am just trying to understand as someone that has recently taken over MT'ing raids for my guild. I originally leveled my guardian as a berserker during RoK. Back then it was very clear the advantage that guards had over zerks, and I betrayed to guardian to tank instances and as a backup for our raid MT at the time. Fast forward to TSO and now all I can see is a significant disadvantage in holding hate. Every other tank has close enough mit and avoidance to mine for any difference not to matter. But they all have a significant advantage over me in holding hate. But yet many people in game and on the forums still insist that guards have a defensive advantage over other tanks. I guess I am trying to understand this reasoning so that I can convince myself that being a guard is still valuable, or to convince my raid leader that betraying back to zerker would be just as good.

Yimway

07-27-2009, 01:21 PM

They don't.The people making these claims aren't really playing guardians.However, the basis for this claim are your 2 short term mit buffs (which with aa / buffs) you can always have one running. Your large group HP buff. Your stamina buff. Your block aa, your ToS stoneskin.Now, do these items equate to paladin heals, bloodletter, lifetaps, etc? Meh, for pure survivability probably slightly better. However factoring the difference in aggro control, the crusader equally geared is usually a better choice.Our SK is a better MT for 99% of the content we play because he has undeniable aggro control.

Ezariel

07-27-2009, 01:37 PM

Thats exactly the way I have been thinking lately... I understand the buffs, but I am just feeling like they don't really have as great an effect as they used to. Back in RoK they really were noticeable, spec for tank aa's, hop in defensive and hit hunker and sphere and other buffs and guardian really became a survivability powerhouse. Now with mit and avoidance soft capped or close already I hit those same buffs and I have to double check if I actually turned them on because I really can't see any difference.I understand the theoretical advantage that we have, but I am seeing lately that it is only theory and not actual...

Kordran

07-27-2009, 01:51 PM

This has been touched on in some other threads, but basically the only advantages the Guardian brings to a raid is if you have undergeared (or lesser-skilled) healers that need the small crutch you can provide in defensive terms. Given a good compliment of skilled healers and appropriate gear for the content, there's absolutely nothing that any of the plate tanks cannot tank (including the toughest raid mobs in the game).Although some of them are in denial, there's no question that Shadowknights are the premier tank these days. The Guardians that are actively MTing today have largely been "grandfathered" in because they were the MT in previous expansions.

RafaelSmith

07-28-2009, 10:46 AM

The only place I see this so called "advantage" is on the inspect window and persona window.In actual gameplay it is pretty much meaningless for 99% of the game.

Kordran

07-28-2009, 12:53 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only place I see this so called "advantage" is on the inspect window and persona window.In actual gameplay it is pretty much meaningless for 99% of the game.</blockquote>TBH, not even so much in that case. A raiding Crusader can hit ~65% mitigation, ~70% avoidance, ~18K+ health self-buffed (give or take depending on stance) which is as good or better than 99% of the Guardians out there. Similarly geared, about the only advantage the Guardian really has is health, somewhere around 500-600 points.A Guardian's temp buffs, ToS, etc. can provide situational benefits in terms of survivability, but if you're looking at just stats, all of the plate tanks are pretty much within a stone's throw of one another these days. In that sense, the plate fighters are much more balanced, but it has also left Guards with a less-defined "niche" in the game.

motogp

07-30-2009, 08:30 AM

Take a look at old raid screen shots. You will see Guardian as MT in most if not all of them. And a Zerker or crusader as OT. Now take a look at new raid screen shots, you will see some Guards as MT and still zerker or crusader as OT. Now, take a look at a raid screen shot with an SK as MT, You will not see a Guard as OT. In fact ,you will not see a Guardian in that screen shot at all. But you will see another Crusader as OT. So go ahead and add up all the numbers-ups and downs, math does not lie, Guardians are out... I thought i should add this just to make it more fun. If Guardians were given a 2 min force target buff with a 1 min down time, they still would not make MT spot. That being said..whats a Guardians job again?

Aule

07-30-2009, 03:00 PM

If Guardians had a 2 min force target buff it still wouldn't matter because it would only work while instancing. Just look at how effective drag / peel / divide & conquer / thought snap / etc are these days.

RafaelSmith

07-30-2009, 03:08 PM

<cite>motogpgp wrote:</cite><blockquote>Take a look at old raid screen shots. You will see Guardian as MT in most if not all of them. And a Zerker or crusader as OT. Now take a look at new raid screen shots, you will see some Guards as MT and still zerker or crusader as OT. Now, take a look at a raid screen shot with an SK as MT, You will not see a Guard as OT. In fact ,you will not see a Guardian in that screen shot at all. But you will see another Crusader as OT. So go ahead and add up all the numbers-ups and downs, math does not lie, Guardians are out... I thought i should add this just to make it more fun. If Guardians were given a 2 min force target buff with a 1 min down time, they still would not make MT spot. That being said..whats a Guardians job again?</blockquote>And I would wager that those Guards that are still serving at raid MTs are because 1) They have been 'grandfathered' in and/or 2) their guilds SKs are not yet geared/AAed up.On equaly footing....meaning both are competent players, have appropriate gear and AAs there is absolutely no reason to use a Guard to MT over the SK.

Maamadex

07-30-2009, 08:50 PM

We still use a Guard MT cause, he doesn't lose aggro and he has been the MT for some time. No reason to fix something that ain't broke. Not to say that crusaders etc have some better tools for holding or grabbing hate, and he is well geared, but he's good at MT'ing.

thial

07-31-2009, 01:26 PM

I still MT for my guild, I don't have agro issues with the DPS in the raid force the only ones that rip agro are the crusaders and the occasional blow your wad at the start dps....granted some of the more AE intense stuff the sk lays it down.... We are on even terms with gear both have 5 piece who gets 6 depends on drops he needs shoulders I need a helmet (did I mention i hate xebnok drop my helmet damit) So in terms of raiding unless your guard sucks really bad is completely out geared or you don't have the proper mt group there should be np with a guard being the raid MT but with proper MT group setup a cleric could probably hold agro fairly well or not, never tried <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />...This proper group follows through with heroic/group encounters as well unless I get a dirge I'm not doing an instance and if I am convinced to go its the most irritating / aggravating experience in the game.

RafaelSmith

07-31-2009, 01:48 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still MT for my guild, I don't have agro issues with the DPS in the raid force the only ones that rip agro are the crusaders and the occasional blow your wad at the start dps....granted some of the more AE intense stuff the sk lays it down.... We are on even terms with gear both have 5 piece who gets 6 depends on drops he needs shoulders I need a helmet (did I mention i hate xebnok drop my helmet damit) So in terms of raiding unless your guard sucks really bad is completely out geared or you don't have the proper mt group there should be np with a guard being the raid MT but with proper MT group setup a cleric could probably hold agro fairly well or not, never tried <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />...This proper group follows through with heroic/group encounters as well unless I get a dirge I'm not doing an instance and if I am convinced to go its the most irritating / aggravating experience in the game. </blockquote>The only time I don't have aggro issues is when I have the prefectly constructed MT group.....and SK is on vacation. =P

Maamadex

07-31-2009, 01:52 PM

Yeah thats what I meant, a good guardian with gear and experience and the right group (same kind of group me or a sk would use I might add) is still a fine MT.

Wasuna

07-31-2009, 02:25 PM

That's good feedback. Let me summarize what I think your saying. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In a raid, the Guardian and SK are both equally good in the properly setup MT group. The SK does excell at group fights and your both basically equal in single target. Is that correct? If it is then the SK 'defination' of AOE tank is working and the Guardian isn't.. and this is only on a raid. What about in an instance group? Same thing applies. Single target, eh, doesn't matter which, just grab a tank and kill it. Group fight, SK wins hands down in every way (Agro, DPS, Survivability) If what I take from what you said is true then there is a SERIOUS flaw in the game. Hence the whole point of this thread and multiple others. I have played my Guardian since Beta and my gorge rises when I see all of my years of hard work canceled by an easy button tank class. I in no way hate SK's or Paladins. I just want my time and work to mean that I can compete. Righ now I can not compete and it is totally out of my control. There is no Gear, Ability, Class Knowledge, Play Ability that will make me able to comepte with an even reasonably equally geared SK or Paladin. That's wrong.

RafaelSmith

07-31-2009, 02:28 PM

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah thats what I meant, a good guardian with gear and experience and the right group (same kind of group me or a sk would use I might add) is still a fine MT.</blockquote>The biggest difference being at least for everything outside of serious raiding, that an SK is still a fine MT even without the right or less than perfect group. By contrast, without the perfect group a Guard is far from fine....in fact he is more of a liability.

thial

07-31-2009, 02:42 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's good feedback. Let me summarize what I think your saying. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In a raid, the Guardian and SK are both equally good in the properly setup MT group. The SK does excell at group fights and your both basically equal in single target. Is that correct? If it is then the SK 'defination' of AOE tank is working and the Guardian isn't.. and this is only on a raid. What about in an instance group? Same thing applies. Single target, eh, doesn't matter which, just grab a tank and kill it. Group fight, SK wins hands down in every way (Agro, DPS, Survivability) If what I take from what you said is true then there is a SERIOUS flaw in the game. Hence the whole point of this thread and multiple others. I have played my Guardian since Beta and my gorge rises when I see all of my years of hard work canceled by an easy button tank class. I in no way hate SK's or Paladins. I just want my time and work to mean that I can compete. Righ now I can not compete and it is totally out of my control. There is no Gear, Ability, Class Knowledge, Play Ability that will make me able to comepte with an even reasonably equally geared SK or Paladin. That's wrong.</blockquote>thats about it in raids the only reason we can get the job done is we get the buffs that are required. I'm sure if you took some of the support out and put an sk in there the job would still get done but the gaurd would fall behind....And thats the problem gaurdians are so group buff dependent thats it's not even fun to play the game, our surviability is not usefull enough to make up for this major flaw....our class description should be "With the support of all the hate buffers this guy can take you staggering through an instance and If you wana raid this guy can but he is going to need lots of buffs so your better off grabing one of our crusadors especially if your just starting out"

Maamadex

07-31-2009, 06:03 PM

That was the gist of what I was saying, all things being equal, Guardian can tank as well in Raid if he's showered with buffs.As for sk, it isn't even just a sk. As a paladin I can tank fine with no aggro issue with just Amends, Sigil of Heroism, Holy ground and my bank of ae attacks. Don't need hate buffs or anything like that. I have pretty great gear for dps too a lot of my aggro comes from that as well. Instance groups are one thing tho. In a raid you don't "want" a flawed MT group and to have to toss an sk in there cause he can hold aggro, you still want a good setup. Player skill and gear also matter, if the sk is better use the sk if the guardian is better use the guardian. I understand what you mean in instance groups, there shouldn't be a need to make a perfect group just for doing a group zone just so a guardian can tank it and not feel like shaking his fist at heaven. I've grouped with good guardians who have expressed the same things you guys are, and it hasn't always been like this, I think guardians could just use a bit more in the area of AE aggro in some way. Or even one of those "easy buttons", in some form. Or make them the absolute best choice for absorbing dmg, take hits like they are godzilla or something. Anything I guess to make them stand out again, cause it seems thats what you guys are saying.

Ezariel

08-06-2009, 03:47 PM

Well I started this thread, and last week I finally threw in the towel and betrayed to berzerker. So much happier now. It took some convincing but I even tanked our raids since then as zerk and it was so much smoother. Not only am I doing far more dps with the same gear, but I was taking far less damage as well from spamming adrenaline. Instances are a blast now, and I can even tank in offensive with less trouble (I can't really explain why, but my guardian got plastered with the same gear and same healer). I even have been able to keep hate off my mythed SK friend for at least a little while when we group together.Looking back at the abilities I had as a guardian :Hate tools :Reinforcements : neat for a short burn, but provides no true lasting benefit as the hate component is a joke. A t1 dps can generate more hate in a single CA/Spell than you gain from the entire 13 seconds reinforcements lasts. Insolence (Gibe) is a far better tool than reinforcements. It lasts longer and provides far more hate as well as being naturally aoe.Rescue, Sneering Assault, Warriors Cry : Zerk gets these tooSentinel Strike : Meh? Zerk gets a blue ae taunt that is far superior in hate generation than this ability.Plant is not even worth discussing as it is beyond useless.Defensive tools :Hunker down : This is just a cruel joke. Increases mitigation yay! However it barely increases my mitigation at all as I have already reached the point of diminishing returns. For a tank that even only has t2 the zerker version is far superior as it actually increases defensive skills (shield effectiveness, parry, defense).Rallying Cry : Zerk gets the same exact [Removed for Content] thing....Call of Shielding : Perm def buff, can't say I noticed that I don't have it....Sentinel : Don't miss it one bit, holding aoe hate instead of letting people get hit is far better than any protection you could ever put on anyone.Guardian Sphere : See above, not to mention that even as a guardian it usually wore off before it ever procced anyway.Sentry Watch : With how hard aoe's and mobs hit in TSO, this has not saved my group in a very long time... Needs to be changed to a large direct heal for it to be useful.Tower of Stone : yeah... Casts far too slow to use it when it really would be useful. To get it off in time you have to start casting when you think you might get hit hard enough to warrant it, not when you are @1k hp. I'll take adrenaline any day over this. With aa's and raid buffs, I get 50% damage reduction for 30 seconds every minute and a half. Your mileage may differ but I find this to be a far superior survival tool. Not to mention that zerk can get a ToS type ability in the TSO aa line that is almost the same as this ability with no shield damage.Moderate : What... a... joke... If it were double in effectiveness, or at least changed to a transfer it might be useful. As it is a good t1 dps can still rip hate while moderated.I have the same mitigation, avoidance, and hp due to diminishing returns. I have an actual deathsave that I can use and don't die from using unyielding will like a guardian. I can do enough dps single target with only a fabled epic to hold hate off mythed dps. I can hold aoe encounters and pick up adds without any problems. I now bring a 5% reuse buff to the entire raid, and a haste/dps buff to my group. Which just works better imo, groups/raids burn mobs down a little faster and my hate transfer does more damage which means more hate for me. And I can still main tank the same raids we were doing before, and actually get compliments from my dps and healers. In retrospect I have to wonder why I was ever a guardian to begin with...

RafaelSmith

08-06-2009, 04:05 PM

<cite>Syruss@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I started this thread, and last week I finally threw in the towel and betrayed to berzerker. So much happier now. It took some convincing but I even tanked our raids since then as zerk and it was so much smoother. Not only am I doing far more dps with the same gear, but I was taking far less damage as well from spamming adrenaline. Instances are a blast now, and I can even tank in offensive with less trouble (I can't really explain why, but my guardian got plastered with the same gear and same healer). I even have been able to keep hate off my mythed SK friend for at least a little while when we group together.Looking back at the abilities I had as a guardian :Hate tools :Reinforcements : neat for a short burn, but provides no true lasting benefit as the hate component is a joke. A t1 dps can generate more hate in a single CA/Spell than you gain from the entire 13 seconds reinforcements lasts. Insolence (Gibe) is a far better tool than reinforcements. It lasts longer and provides far more hate as well as being naturally aoe.Rescue, Sneering Assault, Warriors Cry : Zerk gets these tooSentinel Strike : Meh? Zerk gets a blue ae taunt that is far superior in hate generation than this ability.Plant is not even worth discussing as it is beyond useless.Defensive tools :Hunker down : This is just a cruel joke. Increases mitigation yay! However it barely increases my mitigation at all as I have already reached the point of diminishing returns. For a tank that even only has t2 the zerker version is far superior as it actually increases defensive skills (shield effectiveness, parry, defense).Rallying Cry : Zerk gets the same exact [Removed for Content] thing....Call of Shielding : Perm def buff, can't say I noticed that I don't have it....Sentinel : Don't miss it one bit, holding aoe hate instead of letting people get hit is far better than any protection you could ever put on anyone.Guardian Sphere : See above, not to mention that even as a guardian it usually wore off before it ever procced anyway.Sentry Watch : With how hard aoe's and mobs hit in TSO, this has not saved my group in a very long time... Needs to be changed to a large direct heal for it to be useful.Tower of Stone : yeah... Casts far too slow to use it when it really would be useful. To get it off in time you have to start casting when you think you might get hit hard enough to warrant it, not when you are @1k hp. I'll take adrenaline any day over this. With aa's and raid buffs, I get 50% damage reduction for 30 seconds every minute and a half. Your mileage may differ but I find this to be a far superior survival tool. Not to mention that zerk can get a ToS type ability in the TSO aa line that is almost the same as this ability with no shield damage.Moderate : What... a... joke... If it were double in effectiveness, or at least changed to a transfer it might be useful. As it is a good t1 dps can still rip hate while moderated.I have the same mitigation, avoidance, and hp due to diminishing returns. I have an actual deathsave that I can use and don't die from using unyielding will like a guardian. I can do enough dps single target with only a fabled epic to hold hate off mythed dps. I can hold aoe encounters and pick up adds without any problems. I now bring a 5% reuse buff to the entire raid. And I can still main tank the same raids we were doing before, and actually get compliments from my dps and healers. In retrospect I have to wonder why I was ever a guardian to begin with...</blockquote>A question alot of us have been asking as of late.Personally I won't betray.....at least not for these reasons.....I think its sorta just rewarding SOE for [Removed for Content] poor balancing...but thats just me. I still will always view my Guard as my true "main".....I still like the idea of a Guardian....but the game as it is today...unless your already grandfathered in in a Guild and have constant access to the proper classes to group with....the class is nothing but a lesson in frustration for everyone.I rolled an Assassin alt and am trying to see if I will enjoy playing this class and hopefully have more access to content i have not been able to see with Guardian.

Yimway

08-06-2009, 04:07 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally I won't betray.....at least not for these reasons.....I think its sorta just rewarding SOE for [Removed for Content] poor balancing...but thats just me. I still will always view my Guard as my true "main".....I still like the idea of a Guardian....but the game as it is today...unless your already grandfathered in in a Guild and have constant access to the proper classes to group with....the class is nothing but a lesson in frustration for everyone.</blockquote>I have an 80 sk, guard, and zerker.Unless things change significantly, I'll roll into the new expansion as an SK MT.

Ezariel

08-06-2009, 04:18 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have an 80 sk, guard, and zerker.Unless things change significantly, I'll roll into the new expansion as an SK MT.</blockquote>I only wish I had an 80 SK =/Even though I am enjoying things far more as a zerk, I still am jealous of SK's.

RafaelSmith

08-06-2009, 04:26 PM

<cite>Syruss@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have an 80 sk, guard, and zerker.Unless things change significantly, I'll roll into the new expansion as an SK MT.</blockquote>I only wish I had an 80 SK =/Even though I am enjoying things far more as a zerk, I still am jealous of SK's.</blockquote>If your enjoying things then to me thats all that matters. Besides last thing we need is more SKs. =PI know if tanking for groups on my Guard was actually enjoyable yet challenging I would not have a problem at all. But the current state its neither enjoyable or even "challenging"....at least not how I define challenging.

Vlahkmaak

08-07-2009, 03:59 PM

The main reason the last of us remaining guards won't ever give up is becuase we are designed to take the hits - even the ones the dev team has been hitting us with for the past year. As guardians we are gonna just keep slogging ahead even as the dev team keeps beating on us and try to make the best of it. For fun I tank on my pally some but the guardian is my true main and always will be.

Landiin

08-07-2009, 07:15 PM

F that, Im guard to the cure.. If I just want a night of setting back I'll play my dirge, other wise you will find me beating my head on the agro wall tanking with my guard.

Giliad

08-24-2009, 01:37 AM

I stated this in another post but here you go. Guards are not for the faint of heart. Sure they aren't perfect but if you group or raid with the intent of doing it correctly then Guards are the way to go. Too many peeps want to blow their wad fast and get the loot. So they use an SK, run from start to finish then kill the mobs. The guard is a more skillfully designed class. A guard can tank with anything as long as those anythings understand that they can't blow their wad all at once. That is the problem with the game today. Too many want to farm zones and expect it to be that fast. Well that is not the way it was designed. So while guards are left behind in this lets kill everything as fast as we can mentality, it falls on the players in the group or raid to understand how to play and play it that way. Just my to CP

Wasuna

08-24-2009, 02:33 PM

<cite>Giliad@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I stated this in another post but here you go. Guards are not for the faint of heart. Sure they aren't perfect but if you group or raid with the intent of doing it correctly then Guards are the way to go. Too many peeps want to blow their wad fast and get the loot. So they use an SK, run from start to finish then kill the mobs. The guard is a more skillfully designed class. A guard can tank with anything as long as those anythings understand that they can't blow their wad all at once. That is the problem with the game today. Too many want to farm zones and expect it to be that fast. Well that is not the way it was designed. So while guards are left behind in this lets kill everything as fast as we can mentality, it falls on the players in the group or raid to understand how to play and play it that way. Just my to CP</blockquote>Why would anybody EVER want to take to slow boat if they know there is a faster option. Let's be honest, killing mobs stinks so there is absolutly no motivation to slow down to smell the roses. It's the chest at the end that means something. So, if you can kill the mobs twice as fast with less work why wouldn't you?I understand what your saying. The 'Breastplate of Uberness' you get out of the chest is cheanened if you didn't have to work for it. Well, your going to work long and hard while every SK in the game has the Breastplate you want and did it in half the time with no effort. That is what we are saying.I completely understand your point, and I actually agree, but that still means very little. The expectations of the group members based on the mechanics available in the game is what matters. Healers and DPS expect everything to be easy. If it's not, they kick the Guardian from the group and get an SK.

RafaelSmith

08-24-2009, 02:42 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giliad@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I stated this in another post but here you go. Guards are not for the faint of heart. Sure they aren't perfect but if you group or raid with the intent of doing it correctly then Guards are the way to go. Too many peeps want to blow their wad fast and get the loot. So they use an SK, run from start to finish then kill the mobs. The guard is a more skillfully designed class. A guard can tank with anything as long as those anythings understand that they can't blow their wad all at once. That is the problem with the game today. Too many want to farm zones and expect it to be that fast. Well that is not the way it was designed. So while guards are left behind in this lets kill everything as fast as we can mentality, it falls on the players in the group or raid to understand how to play and play it that way.Just my to CP</blockquote>Why would anybody EVER want to take to slow boat if they know there is a faster option. Let's be honest, killing mobs stinks so there is absolutly no motivation to slow down to smell the roses. It's the chest at the end that means something. So, if you can kill the mobs twice as fast with less work why wouldn't you?I understand what your saying. The 'Breastplate of Uberness' you get out of the chest is cheanened if you didn't have to work for it. Well, your going to work long and hard while every SK in the game has the Breastplate you want and did it in half the time with no effort. That is what we are saying.I completely understand your point, and I actually agree, but that still means very little. The expectations of the group members based on the mechanics available in the game is what matters. Healers and DPS expect everything to be easy. If it's not, they kick the Guardian from the group and get an SK.</blockquote>Sadly its seems SOE made the decision a while ago to dumb down the game and allow lazyness to prevail.I seriously doubt we will ever see the job of Tanking be the challenging/group effort that it should be.If anything is done in terms of "balancing" the fighters it will most likely come via buffing/changing all the fighters so that all of us have easy-mode aggro like SK does now. SOE wants crappy geared skilless fighters to be able to tank for any group........that alone should tell you what their 'vision' for tanks is.The revamp was a clear sign of what direction SOE wants to take "tanks" into. They dont want player skill to play that big roll.The DMG of the overfixing they did with SKs has been done.....everybody from healers to DPS like fast easy runs where they only have to worry about their parse and not their aggro. No way SOE is going to all the sudden change that.

Terron

08-25-2009, 09:59 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would anybody EVER want to take to slow boat if they know there is a faster option. Let's be honest, killing mobs stinks so there is absolutly no motivation to slow down to smell the roses.</blockquote>Because roses smell nice.I like to get to understand the stroy of a zone.Sure if you are doing the zone for the tenth time take it quickly, providing you have done it slowly at least once.Regarding the thread generally, it is much less fun to tank on my guard than it used to be. With the right boths I can hold aggro. Without it I can usually keep enough of it to stop people dying. But I never feel like I am doing what I am supposed to. It is either the buffers doing it or I am failing.Only once in the last three months have I felt good about being a guard. In a zone I had not tanked since the week TSO came out, fighting a group of trash when someone aggroed a wandering named. Our healer died (and a couple of DPSers). I grabbed the named and held the other mobs and managed to stay standing long enough for the dirge to rez the healerand for the group to get its act back together. ToS, Block, the 12s 100% parry ability all got used.My guard won't start frothing at the mouth and berserking (for RP reasons).

Wasuna

08-25-2009, 02:28 PM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like to get to understand the stroy of a zone.Sure if you are doing the zone for the tenth time take it quickly, providing you have done it slowly at least once.</blockquote>1. Guardians always do the zones slowly. When I play my Guardian I go as fast as possible and it's still half as fast as I see day in and day out when playing my Troubador with a Crusader tank.2. Since TSO has been out for months and you need 150 shards for a T2 set and 39 shards per set of jewelery, then yes, I have done the zones 10 times. I actually have gotten around 800-1,000 shards with my Guardian. I've gotten so many that I have the shard mount, have jewlery that I swap in and out just cause I feel like it and I've transfered a charachter to my wifes account and completley outfitted two of her charachters in T2 with jewelery.Guardian agro is horrible. If SOE thinks that adds to our survivability then OK I guess. I cal always FD with my tinker item when everybody that did have agro dies. Then I can pop up and use my Tinker Res item for a 50% chance of saving the group! I have utility I guess but I'm still not tanking.I just don't get the lack of SOE addressing this issue. Guardians are a pure class that can do NOTHING but tank and they don't give us the ability to do the one thing we are suppose to. All this other argument of survivability, snap agro.. etc means nothing in the current mechanics of the game.

Kasar

08-31-2009, 12:56 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Guardians always do the zones slowly. When I play my Guardian I go as fast as possible and it's still half as fast as I see day in and day out when playing my Troubador with a Crusader tank.</blockquote>That's always been the way of things, even in KoS a guardian couldn't maintain any sort of control pulling a floor at a time rolling through vaults like the AE tanks could. Early in expansions, the speed isn't usually an issue, but late in an expansion a lot of things are trivialized and guardians are seen as liabilities.I think it's sad when people comment on how smoothly zones go when I run my guardian through or how easy it is for the healers, like it's new to them. When the burst damage isn't potentially lethal to other classes, the guardian has no advantages.I need to get back to levelling my SK.. their reactives actually work since their avoidance blows.

Terron

09-03-2009, 09:33 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like to get to understand the stroy of a zone.</blockquote>1. Guardians always do the zones slowly. When I play my Guardian I go as fast as possible and it's still half as fast as I see day in and day out when playing my Troubador with a Crusader tank.</blockquote>That is true.But I enjoy it that way.I also do not like doing the same thing over and over. I have half T2 half T1 shard armour. This week I took my guard to two TSO instances for the second time each - Najena's Tower and CoA. I ended up not tanking most of the latter as a guild SK logged on and wanted to come, but I won the roll for the mutagenic burst charm that dropped <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" />

RafaelSmith

09-03-2009, 10:40 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like to get to understand the stroy of a zone.</blockquote>1. Guardians always do the zones slowly. When I play my Guardian I go as fast as possible and it's still half as fast as I see day in and day out when playing my Troubador with a Crusader tank.</blockquote>That is true.But I enjoy it that way.I also do not like doing the same thing over and over. I have half T2 half T1 shard armour. This week I took my guard to two TSO instances for the second time each - Najena's Tower and CoA. I ended up not tanking most of the latter as a guild SK logged on and wanted to come, but I won the roll for the mutagenic burst charm that dropped <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>What a single player 'enjoys' doesnt really matter. The game and with it the majority of the player base has gotten to the point where 'fast and easy' is the norm and the expectation. TSO + SKs have spoiled the rest of the classes...especially DPS and Healers. 15-20min Deep Forge runs is what people expect.And I can pretty much bet money that going into Befallen CoA the rest of your group was thrilled to have the SK show up......they probably would have been even more thrilled if you had a Warlock alt to swap out too.

Macross_JR

09-06-2009, 08:44 AM

man, I really don't know where you guys are coming from with going slow in zones. I rock zones on my guard. I don't slow down for anyone, the healer best keep up with me. Some of my fastest runs of zones has been when I'm on my guard. So I really don't see where you guys are coming from.

Rahatmattata

09-06-2009, 04:24 PM

If you keep up with the thread you would realize that any other plate tank can do it faster due to being able to hold aggro and mass pull. Especially if you are comparing plate tanks in T2 gear and a fabled epic. I'm geared decent enough to blow up zones with the right classes, put a shadowknight in my hands with similar gear and it will go even faster.

RafaelSmith

09-08-2009, 03:30 PM

<cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>man, I really don't know where you guys are coming from with going slow in zones. I rock zones on my guard. I don't slow down for anyone, the healer best keep up with me. Some of my fastest runs of zones has been when I'm on my guard. So I really don't see where you guys are coming from.</blockquote>I am not sure how your Guard is geared, what your normal group consists of, and how well geared your guard is compared to the rest of the group...... but I know in my guild...in our typical groups the difference between my Guard as MT or our SK as mt is easily 3-to-1 in terms of zone clearing speed. And close to 5-1 in terms of needless deaths (amongst DPS classes in the group) per run.