Kevern?

[Silerua]

<p>Are the little stories for the LoN scenarios canon?  "Scenario 4: Bayle is Missing" says,</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">Finally, Bayle walks into the village with his former lover, Danaria, and a two-year-old boy.  'This is my son, Kevern,' says Bayle.  'I didn't know you had a son,' says Eylee.  'Neither did I,' says Bayle.</p><p>If this isn't just made up, then who is Kevern?  *boggle*  It's the first time I've ever heard that name, and I tried to search the forums, but it didn't pull up anything.</p><p>If it is just made up for a scenario story, then oh well.  I would hope they wouldn't just make up stuff like this for the sport of it.  ):</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>No, they are not. Not for either game.</p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>The Bayle line as I understand it.  Please feel free to ammend it if there are ommissions.</p><p><strong>Bayle Shiverfist:</strong> [Barbarian, proto-human, Ethernaut. Father of Kevern, possible father of Vallius Bayle]</p><p><strong>Kevern Bayle (Shiverfist?):</strong> [son of Bayle the Ethernaut, possible father of Vallius Bayle]</p><p><strong>Vallius Bayle:</strong> [possible son/grandson of Bayle the Ethernaut, and possible father of Antonius Bayle I]</p><p><strong>Antonius Bayle I:</strong> [possible son of Vallius Bayle, father of Antonius Bayle II, founder of the city of Qeynos (from Oceangreen) Known as the Great Unifier]</p><p><strong>Antonius Bayle II:</strong> [son of Antonius Bayle I, father of Antonius Bayle III, renamed Tunaria to Antonica to honor his father. Known as the Great Defender]</p><p><strong>Antonius Bayle III:</strong> [son of Antonius Bayle II, father of Antonius Bayle IV Known as the Great Diplomat]</p><p><strong>Kane Bayle:</strong> [son of Antonius Bayle III (presumably), brother of Antonius Bayle IV]</p><p><strong>Antonius Bayle IV:</strong> [son of Antonius Bayle III, father of Shaonia (with Lady Shea), father of the twins Anton, and Antea]<strong></strong></p><p><strong>Antea Bayle:</strong> [daughter and co-heir of Antonius Bayle IV]<strong></strong></p><p><strong>Anton Bayle:</strong> [son and co-heir of Antonius Bayle IV, father of Antonius Bayle V]</p><p><strong>Antonius Bayle V:</strong> [son of Anton Bayle (with an un-named handmaiden of Antea)]</p><p><strong>Antonia Bayle (Shirrana):</strong> [Present ruler of Qeynos. Legitimacy to rule validated by the Circle of Five, possible decendant of Shaonia]</p><p><strong>Kyle Antihilus Bayle:</strong> [mysterious figure, found in the Sanctum of the Scaleborn, and a person of interest to the owners of the Obelisk]</p>

[Rezikai]

<p><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Bayle line as I understand it.  Please feel free to ammend it if there are ommissions.</p><p><strong>Bayle Shiverfist:</strong> [Barbarian, proto-human, Ethernaut. Father of Kevern, possible father of Vallius Bayle]</p><p><strong>Kevern Bayle (Shiverfist?):</strong> [son of Bayle the Ethernaut, possible father of Vallius Bayle]</p><p><strong>Vallius Bayle:</strong> [possible son/grandson of Bayle the Ethernaut, and possible father of Antonius Bayle I]</p><p><strong>Antonius Bayle I:</strong> [possible son of Vallius Bayle, father of Antonius Bayle II, founder of the city of Qeynos (from Oceangreen) Known as the Great Unifier]</p><p><strong>Antonius Bayle II:</strong> [son of Antonius Bayle I, father of Antonius Bayle III, renamed Tunaria to Antonica to honor his father. Known as the Great Defender]</p><p><strong>Antonius Bayle III:</strong> [son of Antonius Bayle II, father of Antonius Bayle IV Known as the Great Diplomat]</p><p><strong>Kane Bayle:</strong> [son of Antonius Bayle III (presumably), brother of Antonius Bayle IV]</p><p><strong>Antonius Bayle IV:</strong> [son of Antonius Bayle III, father of Shaonia (with Lady Shea), father of the twins Anton, and Antea]<strong></strong></p><p><strong>Antea Bayle:</strong> [daughter and co-heir of Antonius Bayle IV]<strong></strong></p><p><strong>Anton Bayle:</strong> [son and co-heir of Antonius Bayle IV, father of Antonius Bayle V]</p><p><strong>Antonius Bayle V:</strong> [son of Anton Bayle (with an un-named handmaiden of Antea)]</p><p><strong>Antonia Bayle (Shirrana):</strong> [Present ruler of Qeynos. Legitimacy to rule validated by the Circle of Five, possible decendant of Shaonia]</p><p><em><strong>Kyle Antihilus Bayle: [mysterious figure, found in the Sanctum of the Scaleborn, and a person of interest to the owners of the Obelisk]</strong></em></p></blockquote><p>IIRC, Kyle is also from the Age of Turmoil, as per Vhalens own words here on the lore forums. That would throw him into the possible son(s) catagory of Kane and Ant. Bayle IV. Or a close relative.</p>

[Silerua]

<p>Oh, so Kevern isn't a random namedropping, then?  Where else is he mentioned?  The whole Bayle family tree has seemed so vague and confusing.  d:</p><p>Thanks for the list, Mary.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>Again, the LON scenarios arn't canon to either game. They use characters from both game's lore, but for the most part we don't know much about the Bayle line other than names alone.</p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>While LoN may not be canon, (though the point is debatable), The various non-canon sources of Norrathian lore have, in the past provided lore that has eventually found its way into the official category.</p><p>In the absence of any official information, and so long as it does not contradict existing lore, then I see no great sin in bringing it up as a possible explanation for gaps we have in the official version.</p><p>If the developers feel that it is misleading or incorrect, then I am certain they will inform us of it.</p>

[erimus]

<p>i promise im not playing devils advocate here <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But what exactly makes something canon or non canon?</p><p>If the LON scenarios are coming from SOE, which to me is an official source, wouldnt that make them canon?  I could be largely misinformed here, as I dont pay a lot of attention to LON, so if Im wrong and someone else is writing these scenarios, forgive me. </p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>erimus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i promise im not playing devils advocate here <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> But what exactly makes something canon or non canon?</p><p>If the LON scenarios are coming from SOE, which to me is an official source, wouldnt that make them canon?  I could be largely misinformed here, as I dont pay a lot of attention to LON, so if Im wrong and someone else is writing these scenarios, forgive me. </p></blockquote><p>If it shows up in the game here, it's canon. If it's another game that uses names and likenesses, then it's not canon unless it shows up in the game here.</p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>EQ Live is considered to be canon because it is the most senior of all the SOE spin-offs.  All the lore started there.  Over the years as different SOE games and products were released, they all, (pretty much), followed the basic lore laid out by EQ Live.</p><p>They would attempt to gain their own lore identity by filling in gaps that were vacant from EQ Live lore, or by using plot devises, (like the infamous 'time-split'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, that would allow them the flexibility to be creative with Norrathian lore without stepping on the toes of the original.</p><p>Over time, as these various products expanded, and developers changed assignments or left, some of the lore began to overlap, and contradictions would sometimes occur.  In such cases EQ Live lore prevails.</p><p>EQ2 however is regarded as a separate case, due to the above mentioned plot device.  EQ2 lore that contradicts EQ Live lore is accepted as canon (for EQ2 only), because it exists as a similar but parallel time line.</p><p>Remember also that SOE did not always control EQ.  It was initailly released by Verant, (which was also owned by Sony through 989 studios).  That was in early 1999.</p><p>In 2002 EQ Live published their Planes of Power expansion.  It introduced the time-split that would later serve as the justification for EQ2's separate timeline.</p><p>Also in 2002 SOE released a pen and paper RPG game that was based upon EQ Live's Norrath.  It had moderate success, and included extensive lore sections on various elements of EQ Live's Norrath.  These lore stories mostly added details to much of EQ Lives lore, and some have subsequently been given 'official' sanction by their inclusion in subsequent EQ Live expansions.</p><p>In 2003 SOE released a PLay Station game called Everquest Online Adventures.  EQoA tried to avoid lore conflicts with EQ Live by placing their Norrath 500 years earlier than EQ Live's Norrath. </p><p>However EQoA had, (and has), a fair amount of lore attached to it, and sinced it predated EQ Live's Norrath by 500 years, it had the potential of over-writing the already established Norrathian lore that had been developed for the past 4 years.</p><p>The potential problem was skirted by both games by making an attempt to avoid retconning EQ Lives lore by the developers of EQoA.  That seemed to work (mostly).</p><p>At around the same time SOE also released several console games based on Norrath:  Lords of Norrath, and Champions of Norrath, but they were largely unsuccesful, and contained virtually no lore.</p><p>EQ2 was released in 2004.  Like EQoA before it, EQ2 sought to avoid lore conflicts by placing their Norrath 500 years ahead of EQ Live's Norrath, and in addition, (to avoid being locked in by EQ Live's lore and possibly having their own lore over-written by EQ Live's continuing stories, they also relied on the 'time-split' to explain away any inconsistencies between the two games.</p><p>That has worked, (mostly), but has not been entirely satisfactory either.</p><p>Finally, SOE also released the Legends of Norrath card game which, (like the EQ table top RPG), has added more detail to existing lore in both EQ Live and EQ2.</p><p>If all that were not confusing enough, developers have also added to the lore by posts on the forums, through live pod casts and presentations, and in game release notices etc.</p><p>The result is a mass of lore from many different sources which only have minimal contact and consulting with each other.</p><p>In short, it's all rather confusing.</p><p>For sanity's sake, the popular convention has been to accept lore from Developers, from EQ Live and from EQ2 as 'canon', and lore from all other sources as being 'semi-official', even though there is nothing I can remember anywhere that definitively states that this is the case.</p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>Oh yeah, I also forgot to include lore fron non-SOE pruducts such as the EQ novels, pre-publication beta lore, and widely read (and believed) fan fiction such as the Codex of War.  Such sources have no official sanction but are never the less widely accepted and often repeated as if the do.</p><p>In truth the volume of lore for Norrath has become so detailed and extensive, that I believe it is beyond the capability of a single individual to internalize it all.  It really takes the entire community to manage it any more.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh yeah, I also forgot to include lore fron non-SOE pruducts such as the EQ novels, pre-publication beta lore, and widely read (and believed) fan fiction such as the Codex of War.  Such sources have no official sanction but are never the less widely accepted and often repeated as if the do.</p><p>In truth the volume of lore for Norrath has become so detailed and extensive, that I believe it is beyond the capability of a single individual to internalize it all.  It really takes the entire community to manage it any more.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe for you, but I don't hear them ever cited as canon, or even just cited.</p>

[Coniaric]

<p>Is the name of Bayle's son canonical? Maybe. But what is canonical is that Bayle did had a son.</p><p>There are a bit and a piece here and there that linked back to the main EQ/EQ2 universe. That's all truly mattered here.</p>

[Llogwey]

<p>well actually, when you meet Bayle in the Palace of Ferzhul, he speaks of Danaria's son who finally became a man (when you mention that Bayle is the name of a a dynasty of famous kings on Norrath now)... which means he is not only aware Danaria has a son, but he also KNOWS him at least a bit... which does not make the name "Kevern" canon... but definitly makes the event canon... as for the complete 1st Chapter of Storm Break LoN Timeline, it is the EXACT copy of the EQ2 lore chapters that were released prior to TSO launch, whi Eylee giving the scrolls to the elf queen to be given to Trakanon... If this is exactly as in the game, why would the rest not be canon ? maybe it has just not been put in the game yet as , actually, what happened between Eylee giving the scrolls to the elf queen, and us meeting the Ethernauts in the Palace we have no lore , ingame ... so the lore from LoN could be the missing part... </p>

[Meirril]

<p>It isn't cannon <em>because</em> it hasn't been put into game. EQ1 upto and including the PoP expansion is cannon for EQ2. After PoP it stopped being the basis for EQ2's lore. What came after PoP includes elements that in EQ1's timeline happened in its distant past (i.e. a second Shissar city underwater, the whole Discord invasion force, another race of dragon-men). That doesn't mean that none of it can happen in EQ2, just that until a developer actually includes it in EQ2 either through including it in game content or by officially linking it through a non-game source (like the forums here) that it has nothing to do with EQ2.</p><p>LoN walks a grey line. TSO was a storyline that was drawn both in EQ1 and EQ2 and shared that information with LoN. LoN has given us a glimpse of the future sort to speak with the whole shadow story line. This won't continue after that unless the EQ1 and 2 devs go insaine and continue to develop the content of both games on a single theme. (i.e. We get Velious, EQ1 does a Velious revamp. After that both games explore a new plane, then both games do a sea expanion, ect.)</p>

[Llogwey]

well there are 8 chapters I think that are EQ2players articles linked via an INGAME book that redirects to the EQ2player sites... all those chapters on EQ2players are almost carbon copies of the LoN scenarii... same names, same events, same chronology... now with stormbreaker the first chapter of scenarii is once again almost a carbon copy of the "by wings of dragon" EQ2players lore text... So how could this be not canon? only the name Kevern, so far has not be "canonised" , I consider it only a matter of time maybe... maybe not but so far everything else since LoN Ethernauts first scenaria has been canonised at one time or another it seems... I don't say that all material from LoN is canon, not at all. but they seem to have made the LoN ethernaut saga somewhat canon for EQ2 at least...

[LordPazuzu]

<p><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Remember also that SOE did not always control EQ.  It was initailly released by Verant, (which was also owned by Sony through 989 studios).  That was in early 1999.</p></blockquote><p>SOE did not exist at the same time as Verant Interactive.  Verant essentially became Sony Online Entertainment when Sony created the department and Verant was absorbed.  Both entities were a division of Sony and have always been under the control of John Smedley.  The largest shift in game direction came with the departures of Brad McQuaid and Jeff Butler in 2002.  From a lore perspective, the original EverQuest was directed, especially in the beginning, by the lore documents of Bill Trost with assitance from Tony Garcia(Vhalen) and a few others working from Trost's lore foundation. </p><p>In terms of canon, I'd say anything by Bill Trost is the word of God, followed by that of Garcia.  If it's not in game and did not originate from either men, then it's probably not canon until the new lore person decides to make it so; at which point I'm sure we'll be duly notified by some means.</p>

[Maergoth]

<p>Sony has been on the EQ Team since launch, under the Sony name.  Qeynos has been in EQ1 since launch, and that's SonyEQ backwards. Mind = blown and all that.</p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>I was wondering what Bill Trost's current position is in the SOE hierarchy.  I am assuming he has moved up the ladder from being associated only with EQ Live.</p>