Interesting thought I had... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Paikis

07-05-2009, 04:30 AM

Most people who have the PvP gear wear the chest (and MAYBE the legs) for crit mit, and the rest is PvE gear. Why? Because PvP gear is by and large complete trash.The absolute minimum amount of time to get 1 (one) piece of TSO PvP gear is 16 hours 40 minutes of time played. That is only for the 100 token pieces. Chest and legs will take longer. That would be if you had a complete writ ready to go every 10 minutes, oh and you aren't allowed to sleep or have a job. Meanwhile in the real world, it can take you an hour or more to finish a single writ because you can't find the particular class you need.Let's pretend for a minute that you finish 5 writs a night. That's about what I get if I go PvP for 2 hours (assuming no block with a class that I just can't find). I only get to play 4 days a week, so I'm getting about 20 tokens a week. I'm looking at 5 weeks to get a single piece of gear, and as much as 8 for the chest piece. 5 pieces at 5 weeks, plus 1 piece at 8 weeks and another at 6 weeks means you're looking at about 39 weeks (9 and a half months) to get a full set of pvp armor.The x4 raid armor (T4) is better than PvP gear.The x2 WoE Shard armor (T3) is better than PvP gear.The Greater Shard armor (T2) is generally speaking, better than PvP gear.Time taken to raid TotMC and get my x4 wrists? about 20 minutes to an hour.Time taken to run WoE with a semi-competant pick-up x2? 1-2 hours.Time taken to get a full set of T2 shard armor? A week? Maybe 2?Time taken to get a SINGLE PIECE of PvP armor? 5 weeks.And the best part is? While running those raid zones, you also get jewelery, weapons and AA while you're getting your armor.<hr />And here's the other thing... If I wanted to go kill an avatar (or any other PvP mob) I go to it's zone, go to it's spawn point and there it is. It does the same thing every time, I know I have to watch out for these 2 AoEs, the same adds every x seconds and I have to make sure that Tank_01 and Tank_02 don't die. If I fail, then I revive and try again... I can try again as many times as I have time for. Avatars do not camp immunity. They also don't evac or run away. Avatars don't charm you when you get them to 20% so you don't get their loot.If I want to get PvP gear, I have to go roaming around several zones, looking for people. I may not find the class I'm looking for. Or that class may be in immunity. Or that class may be in a stacked group that my trio has no hope of killing. Heck, that class may just evac on sight. Maybe there are no priests online at the moment? Everyone is off running instances to get gear that is miles better than the PvP gear anyways.And you wonder why people are calling for a revamp of PvP gear?

Cigam

07-05-2009, 09:46 AM

I like your story. *whispers* "They already said that pvp gear is getting revamped soon"

Azol

07-05-2009, 10:02 AM

+1 what Paikis said (it amuses me to think that this is probably the very first time I completely agree with you 100%) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />As for your writ completing time calculations - make it double for classes without track, especially true for low population servers. Many times I had to scour ROK zones for hours just to find some random class (not mage update that I needed) plus he would evac or run away from me anyway... Haha, those were the days...I have already addressed some of these issues in my "PVP Revards system" post, too bad it was lost in flame wars, as usual. There were some good constructive replies though.

Enoe

07-05-2009, 12:10 PM

OMG i have to agree with Paikis 2nd time....btw good pointsabove it u need to add:Noone ever got raid loot on his own - always on any pieces worked at least 24 ppl (more with rotation)Pvp is very often solo game - 1v1 or 1 against allSo all arguments about why pve gear should be a lot better then pvp one on pvp server for me are just bs.

liveja

07-05-2009, 12:21 PM

On a PvP server, players should be encouraged to PvP.That would seem to be a no-brainer, but obviously, it's not. Instead, players are encouraged to PvE -- in non-contested instances, no less -- to get "the best gear", because getting it through PvP takes far too long.IMO, PvP gear at T8 should be no more difficult or time-consuming to obtain than shard gear, & it should be at least as good.

Faenril

07-05-2009, 01:03 PM

Don't mean to speak for all classes, but with a few exceptions (shoulders ...), pvp set is better than T2 shard gear for my class.

liveja

07-05-2009, 01:08 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't mean to speak for all classes, but with a few exceptions (shoulders ...), pvp set is better than T2 shard gear for my class.</blockquote>How difficult is it to get the shard armor? Does it take as much time to get all the shards, as it does the tokens? Keep in mind that instances & shard quests are easy to find, but classes to update the writs are not necessarily so.

Orthureon

07-05-2009, 01:44 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most people who have the PvP gear wear the chest (and MAYBE the legs) for crit mit, and the rest is PvE gear. Why? Because PvP gear is by and large complete trash.The absolute minimum amount of time to get 1 (one) piece of TSO PvP gear is 16 hours 40 minutes of time played. That is only for the 100 token pieces. Chest and legs will take longer. That would be if you had a complete writ ready to go every 10 minutes, oh and you aren't allowed to sleep or have a job. Meanwhile in the real world, it can take you an hour or more to finish a single writ because you can't find the particular class you need.Let's pretend for a minute that you finish 5 writs a night. That's about what I get if I go PvP for 2 hours (assuming no block with a class that I just can't find). I only get to play 4 days a week, so I'm getting about 20 tokens a week. I'm looking at 5 weeks to get a single piece of gear, and as much as 8 for the chest piece. 5 pieces at 5 weeks, plus 1 piece at 8 weeks and another at 6 weeks means you're looking at about 39 weeks (9 and a half months) to get a full set of pvp armor.The x4 raid armor (T4) is better than PvP gear.The x2 WoE Shard armor (T3) is better than PvP gear.The Greater Shard armor (T2) is generally speaking, better than PvP gear.Time taken to raid TotMC and get my x4 wrists? about 20 minutes to an hour.Time taken to run WoE with a semi-competant pick-up x2? 1-2 hours.Time taken to get a full set of T2 shard armor? A week? Maybe 2?Time taken to get a SINGLE PIECE of PvP armor? 5 weeks.And the best part is? While running those raid zones, you also get jewelery, weapons and AA while you're getting your armor.<hr />And here's the other thing... If I wanted to go kill an avatar (or any other PvP mob) I go to it's zone, go to it's spawn point and there it is. It does the same thing every time, I know I have to watch out for these 2 AoEs, the same adds every x seconds and I have to make sure that Tank_01 and Tank_02 don't die. If I fail, then I revive and try again... I can try again as many times as I have time for. Avatars do not camp immunity. They also don't evac or run away. Avatars don't charm you when you get them to 20% so you don't get their loot.If I want to get PvP gear, I have to go roaming around several zones, looking for people. I may not find the class I'm looking for. Or that class may be in immunity. Or that class may be in a stacked group that my trio has no hope of killing. Heck, that class may just evac on sight. Maybe there are no priests online at the moment? Everyone is off running instances to get gear that is miles better than the PvP gear anyways.And you wonder why people are calling for a revamp of PvP gear?</blockquote>Lol man, people must listen to you more than they do to me. I already explained this except with a 15 minute timer, as I wasn't sure if it was 10-15 minutes. But yeah if people want to really look at how hard or easy it is to gain PVP armor, they really need to remember you can only get writs as fast as the writ giver will hand them out.For a full PVP set it would take 129 hours MINIMUM, this is time played. This is accounting for you turning them in as soon as they are complete and picking up a new one as soon as it is available. Chances of that happening are VERY slim. The speed at which writs will be completed should increase when they remove the archetype requirement, but all that means is you have to sit around and wait for a new writ once and a while. It doesn't lower the minimum required time that you would invest getting an entire set, nor does it increase PVP armor desirability.Like I said, if people feel it is imbalanced, include tiered writs:<ul><li>Kill 5 people, 15 minute writ wait.</li><li>Kill 10 people, 20 minute writ wait.</li><li>Kill 15 people, 25 minute writ wait.</li><li>Kill 20 people, 30 minute writ wait.</li></ul>

KannaWhoopass

07-05-2009, 03:26 PM

Ok but throw some reality in . I want the pants from the TSO set. week 1 zone in and kill the first 2 names cant figgue out how to kill the snake. week 2 same thing . week 3 kill the snake and whipe to next guy . week 4 same thing .week 5 same thing.week 6 kill 4th mob .Now on Gynok and he has my pants. Week 7 get destroyed , week 8 get destroyed, week 9 after dedicating each 4 hour raid day for 4 days , Kill Gynok , ..and ya know what my pants dont drop , nor do they drop the next time we kill kim , or the next time , or the time after that , after a year i may have the TSO pants from Gynok , perhaps the Chest from Anashti also .It took me 3 weeks to get the same in PvP gear.

Cyst

07-05-2009, 04:23 PM

<cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok but throw some reality in . I want the pants from the TSO set. week 1 zone in and kill the first 2 names cant figgue out how to kill the snake. week 2 same thing . week 3 kill the snake and whipe to next guy . week 4 same thing .week 5 same thing.week 6 kill 4th mob .Now on Gynok and he has my pants. Week 7 get destroyed , week 8 get destroyed, week 9 after dedicating each 4 hour raid day for 4 days , Kill Gynok , ..and ya know what my pants dont drop , nor do they drop the next time we kill kim , or the next time , or the time after that , after a year i may have the TSO pants from Gynok , perhaps the Chest from Anashti also .It took me 3 weeks to get the same in PvP gear. </blockquote>So in 3 weeks you got PvP Forearms, Boots, Gloves, Legs, and Chest Piece?550 Tokens, 10 minutes between tokens, if you completed a writ every ONE MINUTE after the 10 minute cool down, makes that 6050 minutes, 100.8 hours, assuming you played 8 hours a day 12.6 days.Wow, I can not wait to get to Nagafen and complete every writ in ONE MINUTE!!!!But why would I, the PvP gear is CRAPTASTIC!!Even still, why would I want to PvE, on a PvP server? I grouped with this Illusionist from Unrest who came to Venekor for a change of pace, leveling to 80, 200AA in three weeks. She had already killed EVERY RAID MOB IN THE GAME TWENTY TIMES OVER, and would not raid with us even though she was leagues better than ANY RAIDER ON NAGAFEN!I asked her why she wouldn't raid, and she said; "because I've already done it, and don't want to do it again, it is boring". I told her that she will need raid gear to compete. She said; "I thought they had PvP gear". I told her we do have PvP gear, but it is junk compared to TSO raid gear. She said (and please read this one hundred times until you get it straight); "that is just silly, I don't want to come to a PvP server and raid, I come here for something different, and I should not have to go through the boredom of PvE, on a PvP server". WOW, JUST WOW someone from Unrest, who was a better raider than anyone in Onyx, raiding with a MUCH, MUCH better raid guild saying that it is silly to have to raid on a PvP server for better gear.She got it after THREE WEEKS ON THE PVP SERVER, yet you have been here much longer, and can't get why PvP gear should be better.After realizing PvP gear was junk, and she didn't want to raid, she quit the game. BRAVO, lets keep trying to force PvE, on a PvP server. That is brilliant!!!

Orthureon

07-05-2009, 04:43 PM

Borias

07-05-2009, 05:47 PM

KannaWhoopass

07-06-2009, 01:20 AM

ohh im not saying i wont im saying that the argument of PvP should be better that raid gear never holds weight when you use difficulty aquiring it as the meat of the argument. There was an example in this post , sighting how epics never evac, etc, But epic's also dont swarm Kp or LS docks and die by the dozen and give up gear. PvP effects are simple to apply, raise resists to stun and stifle effects on non scout classes . drop target and avoidance effects for scotus. drop target and fear proc items for priests. and large boosts to health and power pool for all classes. The highest end gear should always go to Raid players even on a PvP server , because it requires more than a PvP enabled class , or player farming , or 1 week of zerg fest to aquire the gear. It;s the out of game mechanics that get players in raid guilds, make them good at playing the class , showing up to raid, being decent to guild mates , being useful in the guild, learning strats , executing, and after that only having an opportunity for gear not a guarantee. PvP gear sure should help in PvP encounters and have stats to benefit that end almost exclusivly.Mostly i would expect to see set bonus, scouts get a heal proc , healer 3 set they get an evac , mages get i dunno .. but set bonus and PvP enabled stats , PvP gear doesnt mean the best stats or abilities for raiding , or instances in means PvP , so i would imagine that a 7 piece PvP set would be better to go out in the wild PvP han a 7 piece when killing players , but shouldn't be effective at killing dragons..

kittenkabood

07-06-2009, 01:35 AM

Adding these control effect buffs and debuffs on pvp armor would unbalance pvp is so many stupid ways, please stop campaigning for it.Fixing the problems of classes and damage in this game by covering them up with gear does nothing but screw that game over 6 months down the line. SOE has already done that enough.

Paikis

07-06-2009, 02:20 AM

<cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>ohh im not saying i wont im saying that the argument of PvP should be better that raid gear never holds weight when you use difficulty aquiring it as the meat of the argument. </blockquote>Are you trying to say that a loot pinata that is always in the same spot, always does exactly the same thing, never runs away, never evacs, never charms you so you lose your loot, never baits you for a bigger mob (group) to kill and has predictable (to the second) attacks that always do roughly the same amount of damage... are you trying to say that killing that is DIFFICULT? Those mobs are DESIGNED to be killed. Therefor they are DESIGNED to drop you 1-3 pieces of loot every 3 days. The only difficult part of killing most raid mobs is getting the crit mit required to survive the AOEs, and getting the stupid plebs in the guild enough practise to know what to do.Raid mobs difficult? Don't make me laugh.

Grayspirit

07-06-2009, 03:44 AM

Then go get it.

Faenril

07-06-2009, 03:55 AM

Loot pinata ? What do you actually consider a loot pinata ? Many guilds (on both PvE and PvP) still fail to beat mobs like switchmaster or the snake or Kultak. Only mobs I would consider true "loot pinata" are the first 2 named in TOMC, and the 1st one in Palace. So that's 1 piece of your raid set. You keep saying raiding is easy but if it's so easy then how come a huge chunk or the player base fail at TSO raiding ? Raiding is only easy once you learnt the mobs, once you got the gear, and assuming you can put together 24 dedicated players capable of clicking the right buttons (which many ppl fail at). And of course there is the RNG ... Yesterday we saw some loot for the first time from 2 mobs we had on farm since 3 months ... You say raiding is easy ? PvPing is easier. How ? Raid mobs are designed to be killed by 24 players. You can't bring more. So the devs can ensure the script remains challenging, though it gets easier with time/gear of course. If you are terrible and can't kill a mob then it won't drop anything for you. On the other hand in pvp if you get owned you always have the option to bring more. Numbers always win in the end and if you keep trying you will get your writ update sooner or later. Unlike raiding pvping rewards you for trivializing an encounter. Before you call me an exile defender or ask me when I apply to onyx ... I'd just like to remind that everyone is HEAVILY biased on this topic. Most faction players can't or don't raid successfully. Exiles don't get access to pvp gear. PvP gear is an anomaly in the reward system, because it's one of the very few rewards you can get solo that is on par with raiding rewards. No such thing exists on the pve side. Here is my suggestion: 1) Fix the pvp reward system so that you don't get top gear for rolling ppl with numbers (pvp status or whatever idea was suggested). Make it risk vs reward again please. Until then exiles will always bring the docks zerg card, and they are right. 2) Open pvp gear to exiles. At least double the cost for them. This way they can engage in their favorite playstyle and get rewarded accordingly. Factions cried about raiding and they got all classes, there is no reason exiles can't get the gear now (appart from rampant exile hate). 3) Once everyone get access to the gear we can work together on improving it, and making it comparable or slightly better than the x4 set, without making the pvp stupid with load on control effects for everyone. Also Paikis I really like how you are the new pvp gear herald, when 1 year ago you were raiding in VA and you explained us why pvp gear should be subpar compared to raid gear, how pvp gear was easier to get and you were stuggling against the RNG after X months to get your vp set ... I guess you quit raiding since that time right ? No offense mate I have some respect for you as you usually show decent understanding of the game mechanics and reasonnable posts, but on this one srsly lol <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

We_want_your_soul

07-06-2009, 06:42 AM

<cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now on Gynok and he has my pants. Week 7 get destroyed , week 8 get destroyed, week 9 after dedicating each 4 hour raid day for 4 days , Kill Gynok</blockquote>It really took you that many raid hours of pulling gynok to kill him? rofl

Enoe

07-06-2009, 06:44 AM

Faenril raid mobs are easy. Only problem is to have same 24-30 ppl online every day for 4 hours. If i would have it Salvation would be on same mobs like onyx or even further. But as many guild i have constant core x2-3 showing up and rest i need to fill with new recruits - teach them again encounters - gear them up and so on . It is constant flow of ppl.We killed snake like 4 months ago - we raid 4 times a week since and i had 1 (one) raid when i didnt have to explain strat to new ppl.So it is not skill which is rewarded by pve set items but dedication to the raids - or not having RL. And again why best pvp items can be looted only on raids?Just compare 2 fighters one with bow and wrist from zarakon and one w/o it. Who will win is easy to predict. And im not talking about pve set but things u get "extra" from raiding.I think what frustrates many ppl posting here is that they know on personal lvl they can be way better then some Onyx guys, but they never will get onyx's loot since they dont have pro guilds to raid and progress behind them. As i wrote above pvp is very often solo game so why best items which can help u solo pvp you can get only in pro fully dedicated raid?

Guld_Ulrish

07-06-2009, 07:14 AM

atm you have to pve to be able to pvp.....

Faenril

07-06-2009, 07:51 AM

That's nothing new. The gear gap is just wider in this xpac.

Azol

07-06-2009, 08:38 AM

<cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite><blockquote>atm you have to pve to be able to pvp.....</blockquote>There is a problem with current system, obviously. Better think about it now before the gap becomes even wider.

Kendayar

07-06-2009, 09:59 AM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raid mobs difficult? Don't make me laugh.</blockquote>I heard freeport can't even kill avatars yet

Cyst

07-06-2009, 11:36 AM

<cite>Vanand@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raid mobs difficult? Don't make me laugh.</blockquote>I heard freeport can't even kill avatars yet</blockquote>They can't because of the mob, or can't because of the broken PvP mechanics? You do know only one guild on any server kills the Avatars because they're contested right? These guilds usually park alts in the spawn points and hit the Avatar the second it is up.Doesn't mean others couldn't kill the Avatar.

Cyst

07-06-2009, 11:39 AM

As for the Onyx players suggesting we PvE, not PvP, there are dozens of PvE servers for you already.THIS IS A PVP SERVER!!And our PvP gear is getting upgraded as it should.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=453172">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=453172</a>

Cyst

07-06-2009, 11:46 AM

<cite>kittenkaboodle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fixing the problems of classes and damage in this game by covering them up with gear does nothing but screw that game over 6 months down the line. SOE has already done that enough.</blockquote>Looks like I'll have to agree with Pudaan's statement here. However gear should be balanced as well, and this is a PvP server, PvP gear should be the best, regardless of how hard it is to get. You should NEVER advocate PvE on a PvP server, never.

Borias

07-06-2009, 11:52 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's nothing new. The gear gap is just wider in this xpac.</blockquote>The gear gap in kos between someone with full pvp items/weapons/armor and someone who just raided wasn't staggering. Most people could obtain plenty of pieces out of labs/lyceum even if they couldn't do DT/HoS to fill in what the merchants lacked.Nobody cried then (except about the riposte belt, remember that pos before it got nerfed? lol) and people enjoyed pvp lots. Now the gear balance is so far out of whack I can't even begin to imagine how people thing pvp armor is OP.Onyx could move to a city any time they want. They would only lose spells, which are easily replacable. The whole "I'm an exile I want pvp armor" is a joke arguement. When they changed pvp servers to all classes all sides, by staying in exile you gave up the right to cry about it.Honestly, who cares if it takes someone a week to pvp enough for a piece of loot? Isn't it a good thing that they are pvping that much?If you put a truly ridiculous time investment into obtaining a piece of gear by pvping, you make it look better for all players to rely on pve only to gear up to pvp. There should be pvp merchant options to compete with, and provide different effects to what PVE throws at us every expansion. Anyone who thinks that items obtained by pvping should be much worse than anything in pve just doesn't want their competition to be better geared.

Thinwizzy

07-06-2009, 12:04 PM

This whole arguement is just sad and depressing. It is similar to what you see on blue servers where people want to get x4 quality drops out of heroic zones and quests just because they dont want to put in the time and effort it takes to make a competant raid guild.You use the arguement that the raid mobs are predictable and never change, and that it is easy to stand there and poke them with a stick while they fall over and hand out all of their best loot that is still needed. If this is indeed the case, then why complain about a gear difference, when everyone can go poke at the same mobs and get all the same gear?I see Onyx mentioned once or twice in this thread. I am going to tell you the secret of how we got all our gear, of how we succeed in raids.We decided we wanted to.There it is. That is all there is to it. You can sit here and complain about gear differences, about pvp gear being underpowered, about not having a good enough raid to kill encounters; but it will never do you any good until you decide you want to improve. All it takes is 24-30 players who have the same goal spending a few hours a night until they achieve that goal.Instead of complaining about what you don't have, think about what you do have. You have access to ALL the gear. You have options. You can pick and choose what pieces of gear to use for various pve and pvp fights. You can choose to equip gear that improves your dps, or you can equip pvp items with VERY powerful detargets, snares, and fears. I hear people talk about how weak pvp gear is, and I don't get it at all. I wonder if those people have ever been in a group vs group fight where everytime they used a spell, they lost target or got feared.Instead of playing only one portion of this game, realize that it has several. It has PvE, it has PvP. It has raids both x4 and x2, and it has group and solo. The gear you want IS in game, it CAN be aquired, it may not be aquired by how you want to play. That gives you a choice. You can continue playing how you want, with the gear you have; or you can choose to work harder and get the gear you want.What I think some people fail to realize is, if they got the gear they want given to them as pvp rewards, it would trivialize every other aspect of this game.

Faenril

07-06-2009, 12:27 PM

Something funny I just thought about: 1 year ago (almost day for day), the factionned players (some of them posting in that thread) were crying about how having all classes in exile was not fair. We claimed to who wanted to hear how we wanted the same chances at raiding, and how the factions were full of capable dedicated players willing to put the effort, but handicapped by the lack of all classes... Where are we 1 year later ? A few factionned guilds are doing decent raid progression and have the gear to compete with Onyx (when factoring pvp gear). But for the most part Onyx still dominates the pvp scene. The vast majority of the factionned players still can't compete with Onyx (or can't raid anymore due to population issues aka Venekor) and are now asking for upgraded pvp gear. It is indeed sadly ironic that the same players who asked for all classes in order to raid successfully now claim they shouldn't have to raid in order to compete in pvp (after they failed at raiding).

Faenril

07-06-2009, 12:29 PM

<cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I think some people fail to realize is, if they got the gear they want given to them as pvp rewards, it would trivialize every other aspect of this game.</blockquote>That's why pvp gear should only be good for pvp (and pve gear only good for pve).

Paikis

07-06-2009, 12:49 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something funny I just thought about: 1 year ago (almost day for day), the factionned players (some of them posting in that thread) were crying about how having all classes in exile was not fair. We claimed to who wanted to hear how we wanted the same chances at raiding, and how the factions were full of capable dedicated players willing to put the effort, but handicapped by the lack of all classes... Where are we 1 year later ? A few factionned guilds are doing decent raid progression and have the gear to compete with Onyx (when factoring pvp gear). But for the most part Onyx still dominates the pvp scene. The vast majority of the factionned players still can't compete with Onyx (or can't raid anymore due to population issues aka Venekor) and are now asking for upgraded pvp gear. It is indeed sadly ironic that the same players who asked for all classes in order to raid successfully now claim they shouldn't have to raid in order to compete in pvp (after they failed at raiding).</blockquote>Incidently, I have never participated in the dock zerg on any toon. I also was (and still am) against all-classes all-factions.1 year ago I was in exile telling faction players that they couldn't have mythicals because they suck. I was telling them that factions are full of fail and couldn't organise a root in a brothel. I stand by this opinion. Factions are still full of fail, and are still standing in that same brothel trying to get rid of their virginity. The difference now is that I'm in a faction and I actually care about the PvP gear. I don't think I ever posted about it while I was in exile, other than using it as more ammo in my faction players suck comments.Raiding is more difficult than AoEing at the docks. But killing a mob that always does the exact same thing isnt about skill. It's about having the right gear and getting enough practise so you can drag the fail through the fight without them wiping your raid (see: Venril). Honestly I think the hardest part of raiding is getting 24 players who don't lick windows into the same zone at the same time. After that point, the mobs are just loot pinatas and its just a matter of time until the loot falls out.I would say that winning a 6v6 fight against a similarly geared group is alot more difficult than dodging AoE_06 from RaidMob_09 and getting your SK to hit Sacrament to pick up adds. It is certainly more dynamic and alot more fun. This is the type of PvP that needs rewarding, Dock-Zerging needs to be punished and I actually like the following changes posted elsewhere:1. No updates while dead unless your group-mates are alive.2. Deaths will REMOVE a kill from your current writ.With raiding, the fun is in the loot. With PvP, the fun is in the fight.EDIT: What do you guys think about <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=451260�" target="_blank">THIS IDEA</a>? Could be implimented in a way that everyone gets the same 'base' set, and different types of quests give different 'adornments' for it. Best part is that this type of gear could be implimented for Exile's as well. Raiding gives you access to AdornmentsList_01, PvP gives you AdornmentsList_02 etc etc

Cyst

07-06-2009, 01:24 PM

<cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>This whole arguement is just sad and depressing. It is similar to what you see on blue servers where people want to get x4 quality drops out of heroic zones and quests just because they dont want to put in the time and effort it takes to make a competant raid guild.You use the arguement that the raid mobs are predictable and never change, and that it is easy to stand there and poke them with a stick while they fall over and hand out all of their best loot that is still needed. If this is indeed the case, then why complain about a gear difference, when everyone can go poke at the same mobs and get all the same gear?I see Onyx mentioned once or twice in this thread. I am going to tell you the secret of how we got all our gear, of how we succeed in raids.We decided we wanted to.There it is. That is all there is to it. You can sit here and complain about gear differences, about pvp gear being underpowered, about not having a good enough raid to kill encounters; but it will never do you any good until you decide you want to improve. All it takes is 24-30 players who have the same goal spending a few hours a night until they achieve that goal.Instead of complaining about what you don't have, think about what you do have. You have access to ALL the gear. You have options. You can pick and choose what pieces of gear to use for various pve and pvp fights. You can choose to equip gear that improves your dps, or you can equip pvp items with VERY powerful detargets, snares, and fears. I hear people talk about how weak pvp gear is, and I don't get it at all. I wonder if those people have ever been in a group vs group fight where everytime they used a spell, they lost target or got feared.Instead of playing only one portion of this game, realize that it has several. It has PvE, it has PvP. It has raids both x4 and x2, and it has group and solo. The gear you want IS in game, it CAN be aquired, it may not be aquired by how you want to play. That gives you a choice. You can continue playing how you want, with the gear you have; or you can choose to work harder and get the gear you want.What I think some people fail to realize is, if they got the gear they want given to them as pvp rewards, it would trivialize every other aspect of this game.</blockquote>What part of I (we) don't want to do PvE do you not get?Who cares if PvE is trivialized on a PVP SERVER? You should be here to PvP, not PvE. I've raided in multiple games for years, I DO NOT WANT TO RAID AGAIN!! I want to PvP, and to even suggest PvE on a PvP server is full of fail.If you want to sit inside of a raid zone for EIGHT HOURS a day, YOU GO DO IT! I want to come home from work, and go kill people for a couple hours, then log off, and enjoy the evening with my family.

Cyst

07-06-2009, 01:26 PM

Cloakentuna

07-06-2009, 01:27 PM

Faenril

07-06-2009, 02:29 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something funny I just thought about: 1 year ago (almost day for day), the factionned players (some of them posting in that thread) were crying about how having all classes in exile was not fair. We claimed to who wanted to hear how we wanted the same chances at raiding, and how the factions were full of capable dedicated players willing to put the effort, but handicapped by the lack of all classes... Where are we 1 year later ? A few factionned guilds are doing decent raid progression and have the gear to compete with Onyx (when factoring pvp gear). But for the most part Onyx still dominates the pvp scene. The vast majority of the factionned players still can't compete with Onyx (or can't raid anymore due to population issues aka Venekor) and are now asking for upgraded pvp gear. It is indeed sadly ironic that the same players who asked for all classes in order to raid successfully now claim they shouldn't have to raid in order to compete in pvp (after they failed at raiding).</blockquote>Incidently, I have never participated in the dock zerg on any toon. I also was (and still am) against all-classes all-factions.1 year ago I was in exile telling faction players that they couldn't have mythicals because they suck. I was telling them that factions are full of fail and couldn't organise a root in a brothel. I stand by this opinion. Factions are still full of fail, and are still standing in that same brothel trying to get rid of their virginity. The difference now is that I'm in a faction and I actually care about the PvP gear. I don't think I ever posted about it while I was in exile, other than using it as more ammo in my faction players suck comments.Raiding is more difficult than AoEing at the docks. But killing a mob that always does the exact same thing isnt about skill. It's about having the right gear and getting enough practise so you can drag the fail through the fight without them wiping your raid (see: Venril). Honestly I think the hardest part of raiding is getting 24 players who don't lick windows into the same zone at the same time. After that point, the mobs are just loot pinatas and its just a matter of time until the loot falls out.I would say that winning a 6v6 fight against a similarly geared group is alot more difficult than dodging AoE_06 from RaidMob_09 and getting your SK to hit Sacrament to pick up adds. It is certainly more dynamic and alot more fun. This is the type of PvP that needs rewarding, Dock-Zerging needs to be punished and I actually like the following changes posted elsewhere:1. No updates while dead unless your group-mates are alive.2. Deaths will REMOVE a kill from your current writ.With raiding, the fun is in the loot. With PvP, the fun is in the fight.EDIT: What do you guys think about <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=451260�" target="_blank">THIS IDEA</a>? Could be implimented in a way that everyone gets the same 'base' set, and different types of quests give different 'adornments' for it. Best part is that this type of gear could be implimented for Exile's as well. Raiding gives you access to AdornmentsList_01, PvP gives you AdornmentsList_02 etc etc</blockquote>1 year ago there were the same discussions when the pve raid set got beefed up and the pvp set remained forgotten. Back then we had the same time/effort discussions and you claimed everything was fine because pvpers had the luxury to pick their piece of gear while raiders had to put dedication, deal with the RNG being a beach and probably some raiders would not even their chest slot before next xpac ... I can probably find the posts if you want me to...As you have been on both sides of the fence and arguing in both directions, I think you are a prime example why it is not possible to have an honnest discussion on this topic:- faction players rightfully claim they shouldn't have to invest massive pve work to be successfull at pvp.- exiles claim the pvp gear is good enough as it is since a) you can pick the piece you want b) anyone can AE docks c) some items are OP (shifting band, bandolier, banshee hoop ...)Both are right and have valid arguments...PvP gear should be the top gear or compete with the top gear when it comes to pvp. But before they buff the gear they must sort the reward system. Some may disagree but I don't think rewarding scrubs camping docks all day long with the best gear in game is right. Yes ppl winning a 6vs6 or a 1vs1 should be rewarded, but for 1 update gained in a difficult fight, how many are leeched/ganked without effort ?

Paikis

07-06-2009, 02:56 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>1 year ago there were the same discussions when the pve raid set got beefed up and the pvp set remained forgotten. Back then we had the same time/effort discussions and you claimed everything was fine because pvpers had the luxury to pick their piece of gear while raiders had to put dedication, deal with the RNG being a beach and probably some raiders would not even their chest slot before next xpac ... I can probably find the posts if you want me to...As you have been on both sides of the fence and arguing in both directions, I think you are a prime example why it is not possible to have an honnest discussion on this topic:- faction players rightfully claim they shouldn't have to invest massive pve work to be successfull at pvp.- exiles claim the pvp gear is good enough as it is since a) you can pick the piece you want b) anyone can AE docks c) some items are OP (shifting band, bandolier, banshee hoop ...)Both are right and have valid arguments...</blockquote>I do remember that conversation, although I don't recall what I said at the time (find em if you can plx!) however I'm the first person to admit that people will generally change their mind if it advantageous for them to do so. Look at Broncas... he had no problems with PvP gear... until he couldn't get it anymore. I remember him complaining about how OP raid gear was... and then he joined Onyx and it was all fine again because now he had the OP raid gear.As for the point that some pvp items are OP... Yes. SOME items are OP, notice how none of them are from the current expansion? Also notice how none of them are armor? And we're forgetting the Ring of Repulsion, we're forgetting the Soulshattering Band, we're forgetting the Robe of Dark Power, we're forgetting the Wizard 2pc VP set, we're forgetting the extra triggers on Hostage gained from raid gear, we're forgetting the extra heal triggers on the VP templar set, we're forgetting the extra triggers on Rampage for the zerker set, we're forgetting the extra damage on PotM on the troub set, we're forgetting etc etc etc.There are 3-4 OP pieces of PvP gear. This is 100% fine, because they are almost useless for PvE. How many pieces of raid gear are rediculously OP for PvP?And yes, I don't want to be essentially forced to kill internet dragons in order to have a chance at PvP. I'd be happy with a copy+paste of the current raid set, and a few good procs on jewelery from the PvP merchants. I do not want anymore reactive control effect procs though, what we have is already able to swing a fight one way or the other easily.

Thinwizzy

07-06-2009, 04:08 PM

<cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>This whole arguement is just sad and depressing. It is similar to what you see on blue servers where people want to get x4 quality drops out of heroic zones and quests just because they dont want to put in the time and effort it takes to make a competant raid guild.You use the arguement that the raid mobs are predictable and never change, and that it is easy to stand there and poke them with a stick while they fall over and hand out all of their best loot that is still needed. If this is indeed the case, then why complain about a gear difference, when everyone can go poke at the same mobs and get all the same gear?I see Onyx mentioned once or twice in this thread. I am going to tell you the secret of how we got all our gear, of how we succeed in raids.We decided we wanted to.There it is. That is all there is to it. You can sit here and complain about gear differences, about pvp gear being underpowered, about not having a good enough raid to kill encounters; but it will never do you any good until you decide you want to improve. All it takes is 24-30 players who have the same goal spending a few hours a night until they achieve that goal.Instead of complaining about what you don't have, think about what you do have. You have access to ALL the gear. You have options. You can pick and choose what pieces of gear to use for various pve and pvp fights. You can choose to equip gear that improves your dps, or you can equip pvp items with VERY powerful detargets, snares, and fears. I hear people talk about how weak pvp gear is, and I don't get it at all. I wonder if those people have ever been in a group vs group fight where everytime they used a spell, they lost target or got feared.Instead of playing only one portion of this game, realize that it has several. It has PvE, it has PvP. It has raids both x4 and x2, and it has group and solo. The gear you want IS in game, it CAN be aquired, it may not be aquired by how you want to play. That gives you a choice. You can continue playing how you want, with the gear you have; or you can choose to work harder and get the gear you want.What I think some people fail to realize is, if they got the gear they want given to them as pvp rewards, it would trivialize every other aspect of this game.</blockquote>What part of I (we) don't want to do PvE do you not get?Who cares if PvE is trivialized on a PVP SERVER? You should be here to PvP, not PvE. I've raided in multiple games for years, I DO NOT WANT TO RAID AGAIN!! I want to PvP, and to even suggest PvE on a PvP server is full of fail.If you want to sit inside of a raid zone for EIGHT HOURS a day, YOU GO DO IT! I want to come home from work, and go kill people for a couple hours, then log off, and enjoy the evening with my family.</blockquote>I never said I didn't understand that fact that you dont want to raid. You are correct, this is a PvP enabled server, grats on figuring that out. It has BOTH PvP and PvE. If you want to play half the game, you get acces to half the gear. If you want access to all the gear, guess what you have to do? I dont do half of a heritage quest and start asking the devs to go ahead and give me the reward because I dont want to put the time or effort into doing the rest.I have never sat in a raid zone for 8 hours a day. I don't know where you would get the assumption that it would be required to. I am here to neither PvP nor PvE, I am here to do both. Without one or the other, I would most likely not be playing this game.What it seems that alot of people don't understand, is that this game needs both PvP and PvE to keep it interesting. Most importantly, it needs the PvE. PvP in this game has not been developed enough to support full time 100% only PvP. That is why PvE content needs to not be trivialized. I am all for making PvP a self-sufficient aspect of this game, but the system needs a complete overhaul.The PvE needs PvP and the PvP needs PvE. They are both important.

Azekah1

07-06-2009, 04:25 PM

<cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>PvP in this game has not been developed enough to support full time 100% only PvP</blockquote>I think it has...I pve only as much as I need to now, which is why I will probably never pvp t8. My highest char is 62, and I pvp with about 12 or so different characters, all at different levels. I spent a good amount of time getting them to thier levels and making sure they had good AA and MC gear. Now I just pick which one I wanto play with and go pvp. Every once in a while I do a few quests here and there, but 95% of my time now is spend pvping. Its what I do from the time I log in, til I log off. I just go around looking for pvp. If one tier seems dry, I switch chars and check different zones. Its rare I can never find any pvp action. (I even have exile chars for when its really slow <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />)so for me, pve is just the hoop I jump so I can go have fun pvping, the line I wait for so I can ride the roller coaster. If there is any way to reduce the amount of time I have to spend in PvE I am all for it.

KannaWhoopass

07-06-2009, 05:08 PM

Picture this game as only PvP , nobody would play it !It would be offered as one of the free to play mmo games , because there isn't enought PvP depth, or perhaps too much to make viable. Consider what PvP is in the classic games, Unreal Tournament, or Quake , or Team Fortress . The Game begins , there are 5 classes to choose from. At the time of the load screen all players are equal , the game enforces equal players on both teams.There is a clearly defined goal for victory , death is for the most part meaningless , capture the flag is the most popular versions of PvP . And after a victory , zone reset, start again. There are no level considerations , no gear considerations , only 5 possible classes to choose from , teams are auto balanced. Now try that in the Everquest environment. Teams are unbalanecd, 24 classes to try to balance, no goal other than carnage, no victory condition , gear is unequal , the zone never resets, players join and leave at will, and a character is locked forever, there is no map reset where i will pick to be the fighter this time , or the option to revive as a wizard . Everquest is a PvP enabled game , it allows you to attack another player , that is all it is not a PvP game. If the community tries to force it to ba a game it isn;t nobody will ever be satisfied. So because the game is by it's design unable to enforce an accurate score , or reward a dificult scenario the PvP rewards can never be on par with the PvE rewards which can be scored for dificulty. How do you reward a player who had a dead scout laying on the groud tracking players for his wizard main to kill ?How do you reward a player with no tracking who finds players to kill. How do you reward a conjuror who kills 2 scouts at once vs a scout who kills 2 conjorors .. were those encounters whoth the same ? No they weren't but how do you tell. How do you reward a player who sits on the docks in immunity , waits for groups to engage , then fires a shot at a grey mob to break immunity and get in an aoe on the loosing side for a writ update ?The dev's could put alot of time into a scoring mechanic that would take alot of things into consideration when rewarding players for a PvP victory , but i can promise this , the majority of the PvP community would be outraged at the results .

Azekah1

07-06-2009, 05:24 PM

<cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Picture this game as only PvP , nobody would play it !</blockquote>I would

Cyst

07-06-2009, 05:50 PM

<cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Picture this game as only PvP , nobody would play it !</blockquote>I would</blockquote>I would. They have dozens of PvE servers for those of you who think PvE should matter most on a PvP server.

Bloodfa

07-06-2009, 05:53 PM

<cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Picture this game as only PvP , nobody would play it !</blockquote>I would</blockquote>I would. They have dozens of PvE servers for those of you who think PvE should matter most on a PvP server.</blockquote>Somebody kick me. I agree.

Azekah1

07-06-2009, 06:05 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Somebody kick me. I agree.</blockquote>/punt bloodfang

KannaWhoopass

07-06-2009, 06:20 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Picture this game as only PvP , nobody would play it !</blockquote>I would</blockquote>I would. They have dozens of PvE servers for those of you who think PvE should matter most on a PvP server.</blockquote>Somebody kick me. I agree.</blockquote>And they had how many PvP servers ?And they will have how many soon ?So i ask a dozen PvE servers , and 1 PvP server ... what part of Everquest is the attractive part ?And i dont believe you that you would play it, picture one zone Antonica , no mobs in it , no instances , just grass and hills. You log in , and run arround antonica , look a group engage kill , look a player engage kill , look a group .... There is no need for gear upgrades because there is no advancement , you log in as fighter wizard , priest..etc. There are no places to get better gear no gear required , no Raids , no instances , no avatars . Every time you log in you pick a class , you are all the same level . Fun for a day and the game would die fast.Everquest 2 and 1 have lasted longer than any PvP game created , team fortress , unreal tournament , quake . Its the adventure and character development , and goal oriented play that gives it longevity , PvP is gravy not the main course.There are several games who try the PvP focus ..Conan ...comes to mind , a bunch of brand new ones where you can click to target and manual block and change the PvP ability trees .. They will rise and fall quickly the same as they all have because , no one wants to eat gravy for more than a week.. ... and thats all PvP is ..gravy ..stop trying to make a meal of it

Cyst

07-06-2009, 06:50 PM

You are wrong.Conan wasn't a failed game because of its PvP, but because the game sucked, period.I played Dark Age of Camelot for nearly three years, averaging 10k-15k kills a week, and never did any PvE in that game beyond making max level. Dark Age of Camelot is a RvR/PvP first game. Guess what? DAoC has more players than EQ2, STILL!!You have the PvE servers, let us have our PvP servers.

KannaWhoopass

07-06-2009, 07:01 PM

<cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are wrong.Conan wasn't a failed game because of its PvP, but because the game sucked, period.I played Dark Age of Camelot for nearly three years, averaging 10k-15k kills a week, and never did any PvE in that game beyond making max level. Dark Age of Camelot is a RvR/PvP first game. Guess what? DAoC has more players than EQ2, STILL!!You have the PvE servers, let us have our PvP servers.</blockquote>Why aren't you playing it ?

Faenril

07-06-2009, 09:16 PM

mmh this is a serious derail now, but I have trouble understanding what the "no pve crowd" actually want, or their motivations to play this game. I mean EQ2 didn't start as pvp and all of a sudden became pve. The game, as most MMORPGs, has always been about advancing your character, mostly through adventuring. Most of the subscribers playing EQ2 enjoy the concept of a long term character progression, which by definition is not compatible with a balanced "fair" pvp environment. It's not quake: pick your character and go fight in the arena... So first I wonder what those ppl are doing here, but after all why not... Now imagine you can advance your character only through pvp.... Through pvp and pvp ONLY you need ways to: - earn gear upgrades of course - earn spells upgrades - earn AAs - earn money to buy consumables - earn consumables I'm not saying it's impossible but it's a quite a major rework of the pvp in this game. My opinion is that pvp is nowhere good enough to remain interesting in the long run if you do only that, and it would quickly get old, but it's only an opinion of course some may differ.

Faenril

07-06-2009, 09:22 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are 3-4 OP pieces of PvP gear. This is 100% fine, because they are almost useless for PvE. How many pieces of raid gear are rediculously OP for PvP?</blockquote>Oh I never said no raid gear is OP. A lot of items are OP or broken in that game (toxic backlash?), some not even requiring a raid to obtain. Just saying it's the typical card exiled players pull in pvp vs pve gear discussions <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Borias

07-06-2009, 09:39 PM

<cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never said I didn't understand that fact that you dont want to raid. You are correct, this is a PvP enabled server, grats on figuring that out. It has BOTH PvP and PvE. If you want to play half the game, you get acces to half the gear. If you want access to all the gear, guess what you have to do? I dont do half of a heritage quest and start asking the devs to go ahead and give me the reward because I dont want to put the time or effort into doing the rest.I have never sat in a raid zone for 8 hours a day. I don't know where you would get the assumption that it would be required to. I am here to neither PvP nor PvE, I am here to do both. Without one or the other, I would most likely not be playing this game.What it seems that alot of people don't understand, is that this game needs both PvP and PvE to keep it interesting. Most importantly, it needs the PvE. PvP in this game has not been developed enough to support full time 100% only PvP. That is why PvE content needs to not be trivialized. I am all for making PvP a self-sufficient aspect of this game, but the system needs a complete overhaul.The PvE needs PvP and the PvP needs PvE. They are both important.</blockquote>What's this 'half the gear' crap? It's 99.9% pve gear and .1% pvp gear. There are 7 pieces of gear you can acquire this expanion from a pvp merchant, and while most people have the bp, a fair amount have the legs, but then it tapers off signifigantly. There's still 1-2 pieces people use from older expansions, because of the neat effects, which is similar actually to pve.PvE content would not be trivialized by giving players pvp items that have similar effects to pve gear. Why would it? And even if it does make it easier, is that bad? By having a raid full of players that spend weeks of actual time pvping to get better items that lets them raid better, you make people happy. Above that, that means that all those people are out there pvping, which is what we want, yes?

Azekah1

07-06-2009, 11:45 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>mmh this is a serious derail now, but I have trouble understanding what the "no pve crowd" actually want, or their motivations to play this game. I mean EQ2 didn't start as pvp and all of a sudden became pve. The game, as most MMORPGs, has always been about advancing your character, mostly through adventuring. Most of the subscribers playing EQ2 enjoy the concept of a long term character progression, which by definition is not compatible with a balanced "fair" pvp environment. It's not quake: pick your character and go fight in the arena... So first I wonder what those ppl are doing here, but after all why not... Now imagine you can advance your character only through pvp.... Through pvp and pvp ONLY you need ways to: - earn gear upgrades of course - earn spells upgrades - earn AAs - earn money to buy consumables - earn consumables I'm not saying it's impossible but it's a quite a major rework of the pvp in this game. My opinion is that pvp is nowhere good enough to remain interesting in the long run if you do only that, and it would quickly get old, but it's only an opinion of course some may differ.</blockquote>A lot of us started on PvE, then came to pvp, and at this point, after 3 years, I'm pretty much burned out from PvE. I still do it here and there to work on my characters but what I enjoy the most now, is logging in and killing other players. Eventually I might get burned out of that, but for now, its the only thing I want to focus on...As far advancing your character through pvp, you already can do most of those...you can earn plat by stealing other players moneyyou can earn AA at level 80, and in the next xpac at level 10you can earn gear, which will soon be updated to be worthwhile (hopefully)Of course, you can't count on money through pvp, so we still have to farm here and there, but soon, most of our needs will be taken care of through pvp.Thats something I'm looking forward to.

07-07-2009, 12:22 AM

I came from PVE as well and have raided for years. I still like doing it and dont want to loose it. Just because a few people come here and scream its crazy to PVE on a PVP server it doesn't mean we all feel this way. Im all for balancing out gear but I will say that you should have to do both to get the absolute best gear out there. That goes for exile and and factioned players imo. I think for every class there should be pieces of pvp gear you want, pieces of raid gear that you want, and pieces of instanced gear that you want. I dont even care if they throw in a piece or two of tradeskill gear or collection quest gear. You should have to play multiple parts of the game to completely "finish your toon". Of course this is my opinion and alot will differ but as the guild leader and main tank of Onyx I still havent come close to finishing Boon.I still have raid pieces I needI still have instance pieces I needI dont have access to pvp gear even though id love it if I did. (still wont argue if exiles should get it or not because no matter what the outcome is Im going to stay exile)All and all I think they do it pretty well for needing gear from different aspects of the game and will concede the fact that raiding will net you more gear than pvp but go for balancing it, not completely ruining half of the game cause YOU don't want to do part of it.

Paikis

07-07-2009, 02:03 AM

Anyone who has compared the PvP and raid sets will just boggle at the PvP set. It's total garbage compared to the raid set. I knew the raid set was better, but I haven't actually compared them for a while... its alot worse than I thought it would be.The raid set gets 4 set bonuses compared to the PvP's 3 bonuses. The raid set gets +BASE stuff on atleast 2-3 pieces of gear and on a set bonus generally. PvP set gets some base as the final set bonus, that's it. The raid set has 2 focuses on the chest piece and some legs, compared to 1 focus on the raid set chest and legs. They're also generally better focuses.Take a look at the templar set bonuses for instance.PvP set bonuses:(2) Focus: Aegolism - Increase all bonuses by 10%(4) Focus: Aegolism - Increase all bonuses by 20%(6) +10 base heal, +10 base spell.Raid set bonuses:(2) +2% trigger chance to Unyielding Benediction (from 13% to 15% chance to stoneskin attacks)(4) Focus: Aegolism - Increase all bonuses by 30%(5) Greater Salabrious Aura - procs a reactive heal on the target of your heals. 2.0/minute, 3 triggers of 530 health.(6) 10 Heal crit bonus.Basically the raid set has 4 bonuses, versus the PvP set's 2 bonuses. I'm hoping the revamp of PvP gear will atleast make the gear AS GOOD as the raid set.

KannaWhoopass

07-07-2009, 03:13 AM

Ill try to put this out there and see if any can grasp this. If the I PvP crowd had their way , PvP gear would be on par with the top end raid sets.Why should that be ?It's not harder to get , it takes no particuar skill , no mater who says what , anybody who can press a button can get a hit on a player fighting someone else and get updates. I doubt i killed 1/3 of my total kills , almost none of them are solo kills , the majority are from lavastorm chaos , aoe's in a group alredy fighting another , chasing down a half dead victor of a fight, sending my Dog to attack a group engaged while i stand underwater. I rarely solo heal a group , im second healer all the time. I have a PvP chest and over 100 tokens in my bag, and i dont PvP more than one night a week . Well that type of play and behavior sure does deserve the best gear in the game ! , doesn't it ?My obvious prowess at my class, and awsome fighting style has earned me that hasn' it ?But then again i dont wear any PvP gear because i have a fully fabled raid set .And to get it all i ad to do was .Show up 4 night a week for 4 hours .Go on countless raids where i got nothing for my efforts but a 4 plat a night repair bill .When gear i could use was looted , 80% of the time it will go to another who outbid me on the item, and then the item wont drop again for weeks.I needed to learn to work as a team with 23 other players to accomplish a goal .I have had to be the brunt of jokes or negative remarks when i failed to do my job and killed 23 others.I needed to memorize AOE timers , positions , jousting positions , make up cure rotations with other healers , be listening in private group vent , while in raid vent , while in healer vent. And im asking what do you think is harder ? What requires more time and dedication ?And which should yield the better reward ?Because like i said PvP doesnt require skill , it requires persistance , just keep waiting for a group to be fighting , run in take a swing and hide.. wait for the writ update. When new PvP zerg opportunities come along like level cap increase , new questing zones , or new areas to explore open up .Milk that like a golden cow, grief every group trying to quest , join in the endless parade of reviving groups throwing themselvs back into a x8 on x8 mass PvP orgy . and get it while the getting is good. Its mindless , it;s easy , and if some of the PvP community has their way , will yield the best gear in the game.I swear the only skill involved in me getting all of my tokens was trying not to click on the druid portals people were putting in front of the writ giver , or finding the writ givers feet under the ice cream truck to turn in my update. Please dont argue that PvP gear is somehow difficult to get , or requires awsome skill , it isn't and it doesn't .There are countless ways to exploit getting PvP gear. If you want to make PvP aquired gear be similar to PvE aquired gear then have a debate about how to make it as difficult to aquire, make suggestions on how to modify the rules on a PvP server to ensure they cant be exploited . And make suggestions on how all classes can be competitive and have equal opportunity to attain the gear at the same speed , with equal time and effort invested.

Jeht

07-07-2009, 03:43 AM

dang jitter you sure do cry alot

Azol

07-07-2009, 03:58 AM

Both PVP and PVE playstyles should be equally rewarding. You can do what you please period. Nothing to quarrel about. But indeed PVP reward system should be changed. Status-purchased items is quite a good idea, if you implement status deductions for PVP death and such. Also make it so if any player attacks someone out of current zone level range (higher that is), he should be carnage flagged. Problem of leeching solved. And yes, you cannot get updates or status when dead.P.S. English is not my native language, but I got headaches each time I see these words misspelled (and maybe there is some cute little kitten that dies each time somewhere).PLEASE, take note:ridiculousimplementSave little cuties! Thank you.

Cyst

07-07-2009, 04:01 AM

<cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>A bunch of words supporting PvE, over PvP.</blockquote>I could take a brand new Warlock, level him to 80 in instances, get him to 174 AA, getting the endline TSO AA Tree, allowing my groups to zone me in, (even doing easy raid mobs in pick up groups) and have..<ul><li>90%+ Spell Crit</li><li>1000+ Intelligence</li><li>40% Crit Mit</li><li>Near max casting speed.</li><li>20%+ Base Damage Bonus</li><li>Ring of Readiness</li><li>Buy the Dispersion Belt off the Broker.</li><li>AND COUNTLESS OTHER THINGS!!</li></ul>..parsing 9k+ on raids with just a Troub, right out of the box, and never once getting into a single PvP fight, doing nothing but riding on the coat tails of my groups, and my guild.What a joke man, and here you are advocating PvE, on a PvP server that has more ways to avoid PvP than ever.

Faenril

07-07-2009, 04:30 AM

<cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I swear the only skill involved in me getting all of my tokens was trying not to click on the druid portals people were putting in front of the writ giver , or finding the writ givers feet under the ice cream truck to turn in my update. </blockquote>I loled at this one. I wonder how many peeps ended in KJ Steamfont or wherever trying to turn in their writ.

Faenril

07-07-2009, 05:25 AM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do remember that conversation, although I don't recall what I said at the time (find em if you can plx!) however I'm the first person to admit that people will generally change their mind if it advantageous for them to do so.</blockquote>Ok Paikis you asked for it so here we go !Source: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=429872" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=429872</a>Paikis said:"PvP armor was intended to be an alternative way to gear up and to somewhat compensate city factions for their inability to raid with all classes. Now that you have all classes and can (lol) raid like the exiles could, the reason for having PvP gear is gone. The gear itself should in no way be as good as top-end raid gear. It should be like this expansion, where most of the gear is about on par with mid-range raid gear. If you want better gear, go raid for it. You now have the means to clear everything that everyone else can. You also have the means to gear up ALOT faster than anyone else can, and there are a few pieces of gear on the PvP merchant that are better than ANYTHING else for that slot.""Leave the PvP gear in the game, but don't make it any better.""PvP is an add-on to the PvE game. It always has been and it always will be. There is nothing wrong with rewarding people for killing internet dragons. You no longer have any excuse for not killing those same internet dragons yourselves.""There *IS* something wrong with rewarding PvP. PvP should be about FUN not about zerging on the docks for tokens. And it certainly should not reward gear that is anywhere close to being as good as raid gear. Mid tier raid gear on a broker is already stupid, don't make it any better than it already is.""I don't mind that pvP rewards gear. That's fine. What I do mind is that you want that gear to be as good, if not better, than gear drops from raid mobs. It's already better than anything you can get from raids until Veeshan's Peak. All I'm saying is don't make it any better.""I'm saying PvP gear should be about the same level as the mid-tier raid armor sets. You want to gear up through pvP? Fine. You even get to pick which piece of egar you want. But you want the uber gear? The best gear out there? Go raid for it. now that city factions have all classes, and all the other perks from a faction, there is no excuse (at all) for you to not be killing the same mobs as the exiled guilds. You are now the easy-mode. Go forth and slay internet dragons for phat-lewts or some such.""So what you're saying is that the docks zerg should be rewarded with the best gear in the game? [Removed for Content]."It's the latest thread I found. It was right after they opened all classes to the factions. I could probably find more digging further in the past but it's probably not necessary nor productive. So back then you were defending the same position Broncas is defending today, while I was arguing in favor of pvp gear:Faenril said:"There have been 2 ways to gear up on pvp servers for a long time now, I see no reason to change this.It's not because everyone is on equal base for raiding now, that those who would rather pvp for their gear should be screwed.And it's not like the pve armor set is better than the pvp one... heh ?"It's interesting how ppl's opinion change based on the context.So what has changed since then ? Apparently you are now in a faction and can't or don't want to raid anymore...Why did I change my mind ? Well of course I get a few nice pieces of raid gear on my toon on top of pvp gear, so I'm biased on the issue just like everyone else...But the main thing is I've seen the LS/KP docks zerg, and I don't think anymore this should be rewarded with the top end gear.In KOS mass farming each other for tokens was an exploit (token factory anyone ?).In TSO with the writ system one PC death updates 10 writs or more. With infamy loss gone ppl just farm each other mindlessly. What was once called upon is now the official way to pvp because the devs catter to the masses who want their free gear.Sorry but as long as the reward system is in that state I'd rather reward ppl for killing internet dragons.

Kendayar

07-07-2009, 09:04 AM

Borias

07-07-2009, 11:14 AM

I'm sorry Jitter, I skipped over your nth essay in as many posts. However, I will restate this since nobody seems to comment about it:KoS era, pvp gear had unique effects not on pve gear, weapons that were almost completely on par with high end, if not top end pve weapons, and a couple pieces of armor with unique effects. Then in EoF they added pvp armor, which while not quite as good as the pve sets, they provided a very decent alternative. The gear difference between top end raid and pvp was close in kos, and only a little more spread out in eof, with exceptions to avatar gear, but it was rare and with only 1-2 spawns a week, not very unbalancing in a quick manner.In RoK more interesting jewelry pieces were added, that people were excited to pvp for. The armor was junk compared to VP armor tho. More avatar loots, but not many came into the server.Now we have pvp armor that gets almost completely ignored except for bp/legs, and those get replaced when the pve set pieces drop. However, due to several reasons, avatar loot has taken gear seperation, laughed at it, and tossed it into a new zip code. Also, top end raid gear is now where we get unique effects, the best armor, and the best weapons.Why do people pvp again? It certainly isn't the items. People that are willing to kill for days straight to get the tokens should be rewarded with items that help their characters. And yes, even in pve. I admit it, unless I'm out pvping with people I enjoy doing it with, I prefer to spend my time gearing up guildies, since I have the 1 tso pvp I wanted, and the couple rok items I wanted. I know I'm not the only one that does it. Give people real incentives to pvp, and they will.

Bloodfa

07-07-2009, 11:57 AM

<cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>******snipped*****So i ask a dozen PvE servers , and 1 PvP server ... what part of Everquest is the attractive part ?And i dont believe you that you would play it, picture one zone Antonica , no mobs in it , no instances , just grass and hills. You log in , and run arround antonica , look a group engage kill , look a player engage kill , look a group .... There is no need for gear upgrades because there is no advancement , you log in as fighter wizard , priest..etc. </blockquote>I know a few people, and they know quite a few more, who are on PvE servers and tried PvP. They didn't like it, couldn't stand being ganked by somebody lower level than them. So they went back to what they felt comfortable with. I'm fairly confident that if PvP had been live from the start, and more people had begun the game involved in PvP, it would be a very different ratio. But it didn't, they didnt, and it isn't. Water under the bridge.Whether you believe I would play it or not, eh, that's your call. I played from launch, and was burned out on PvE by the time Nagafen went live. I've already walked away from this game twice, and come back twice. /shrug. As long as players could make their own gear, I would play. PvEers and raiders, I'd assume they wouldn't for long. Again, /shrug. I play FPS games when not running around Norath, and I happen to like a completely even playing field; makes it fun to talk smack with friends, or enemies, when you win 4 out of 5 fights and everything's equal. In this game, everything's not equal. It's about gear, first & foremost, then class, then skill. In an FPS, it's about skill (hand-eye coordination, keeping those crosshairs on target), then communications, then class choice, then a question of who has more ammo.

Orthureon

07-07-2009, 12:00 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I think some people fail to realize is, if they got the gear they want given to them as pvp rewards, it would trivialize every other aspect of this game.</blockquote>That's why pvp gear should only be good for pvp (and pve gear only good for pve).</blockquote>I like your way of thinking.

Azekah1

07-07-2009, 12:06 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I think some people fail to realize is, if they got the gear they want given to them as pvp rewards, it would trivialize every other aspect of this game.</blockquote>That's why pvp gear should only be good for pvp (and pve gear only good for pve).</blockquote>I like your way of thinking.</blockquote>but the poor exiles?

Faenril

07-07-2009, 12:12 PM

<cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I think some people fail to realize is, if they got the gear they want given to them as pvp rewards, it would trivialize every other aspect of this game.</blockquote>That's why pvp gear should only be good for pvp (and pve gear only good for pve).</blockquote>I like your way of thinking.</blockquote>but the poor exiles?</blockquote>No problem if you open pvp gear access to them.Honnestly until we do that we'll never get anywhere with those discussions.

Cloakentuna

07-07-2009, 12:15 PM

Leave PvP gear for the cities, if they want it they know what they have to do.

Azekah1

07-07-2009, 12:15 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's why pvp gear should only be good for pvp (and pve gear only good for pve).</blockquote>I like your way of thinking.</blockquote>but the poor exiles?</blockquote>No problem if you open pvp gear access to them.Honnestly until we do that we'll never get anywhere with those discussions.</blockquote>tbh, I say it because I have a few exile chars, its not somewhere I would wanto spend all my time, but its a nice change here and there...nothing like walking into a zone and knowing you can attack anything you see : )but of course, after killing ppl a bunch of times and them calling in thier level 80 friends to kill you gets old pretty quickly...

Paikis

07-07-2009, 12:19 PM

There's a new quest in-game which allows betrayal in minutes instead of hours. I hear if you rejoin a city you get access to PvP gear.Might just be a rumor though.

Orthureon

07-07-2009, 12:19 PM

<cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's why pvp gear should only be good for pvp (and pve gear only good for pve).</blockquote>I like your way of thinking.</blockquote>but the poor exiles?</blockquote>No problem if you open pvp gear access to them.Honnestly until we do that we'll never get anywhere with those discussions.</blockquote>tbh, I say it because I have a few exile chars, its not somewhere I would wanto spend all my time, but its a nice change here and there...nothing like walking into a zone and knowing you can attack anything you see : )but of course, after killing ppl a bunch of times and them calling in thier level 80 friends to kill you gets old pretty quickly...</blockquote>Haha, yeah if I get ganked by a group of exiles on my lower level toons, I log in my 80 and kill them. Then I pull out a pet and say something along the lines of: thatwasequaltogank. Anyways thread derailing over.

Azekah1

07-07-2009, 12:20 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Might just be a rumor though.</blockquote>

Faenril

07-07-2009, 12:20 PM

Also as they are supposedly implementing this new gear scaling system (your gear looses effectiveness based on your level/your gear level), maybe they can take advantage of this to automatically scale down the pve gear in pvp, with very little implementation effort: basically in a pvp encounter your pve gear would behave as if you were outlevelling it by 5 or 10 levels for instance. That's what the little 'pvp' checkbox was supposed to do originally, but it obviously didn't work out so well or they didn't pay enough attention when you see the effect of some procs/clickies on pvp.

Paikis

07-07-2009, 12:27 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do remember that conversation, although I don't recall what I said at the time (find em if you can plx!) however I'm the first person to admit that people will generally change their mind if it advantageous for them to do so.</blockquote>Ok Paikis you asked for it so here we go !Source: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=429872" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=429872</a>Paikis said:"Stuff"</blockquote>[Removed for Content]. Well there you go, looks like I did say it. Like I said above though...

Ekelefer

07-07-2009, 02:41 PM

<cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cyst@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Idolitor@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Picture this game as only PvP , nobody would play it !</blockquote>I would</blockquote>I would. They have dozens of PvE servers for those of you who think PvE should matter most on a PvP server.</blockquote>Somebody kick me. I agree.</blockquote>And they had how many PvP servers ?And they will have how many soon ?So i ask a dozen PvE servers , and 1 PvP server ... what part of Everquest is the attractive part ?And i dont believe you that you would play it, picture one zone Antonica , no mobs in it , no instances , just grass and hills. You log in , and run arround antonica , look a group engage kill , look a player engage kill , look a group .... There is no need for gear upgrades because there is no advancement , you log in as fighter wizard , priest..etc. There are no places to get better gear no gear required , no Raids , no instances , no avatars . Every time you log in you pick a class , you are all the same level . Fun for a day and the game would die fast.Everquest 2 and 1 have lasted longer than any PvP game created , team fortress , unreal tournament , quake . Its the adventure and character development , and goal oriented play that gives it longevity , PvP is gravy not the main course.There are several games who try the PvP focus ..Conan ...comes to mind , a bunch of brand new ones where you can click to target and manual block and change the PvP ability trees .. They will rise and fall quickly the same as they all have because , no one wants to eat gravy for more than a week.. ... and thats all PvP is ..gravy ..stop trying to make a meal of it Being unable to stomach it, does not mean it isn't a "meal". PvP, to a PvPer, is the "meat and potatoes" of the game. To them, PvE isn't even a gravy. It is the four, agonizing hours of cooking time required before you may enjoy your meal. The confrontation is PvErs who enjoy a "taste" of PvP vs PvPers who survive on pvp; it sustains their gameplay. For a true PvPer the reward isn't the accumulation of great gear. It is the satisfaction of taking down a worthy opponent, or surviving the onslaught of an unworthy opponent(s). The same is true for a through-and-true PvEr. The reward isn't the gear but taking down a diffucult Raid boss; devising a new strategy and correcting the errors of old ones. The sense of accomplishment is the driving force behind a raider, and a PvPer. The gear is the means by which greater endeavors may be taken, frailties are diminished and the gap between failure and success is bridged. The trials and diffuculties of these realms of gameplay are different and entirely seperate, almost. The compensation for Raiding infringes upon the experiences and outcomes of PvP encounters. The same isn't true for the compensation of PvPing. Acquiring PvP gear will not amend any shortcomings within the realm of Raiding as it is a very tiered gauntlet. A raid of PvPers donning PvP gear will not surmount the greatest PvE raid content, contrarily, PvErs donning the loot of conquered Raid-Bosses will have a great advantage over the former. This is the heart of the issue. I believe what most PvPers want is compensatory gear that is advantageous in PvP alone. The issues with how that gear is obtained and whether or not it was/is diffucult to obtain, isn't as important as how the gear compensates. Well made, balanced gear should be designed to lessen a characters flaws and augment their strengths, instead of overwhelming an enemy player with offhanded effects. If the gear cannot predetermine a victor than a player's wits and execution will take the reigns; this is what a real PvPer wants. From what I can glean I can only conclude PvErs believe that all time spent, is time spent equally. Spending four hours a day, multiple days a week is the equivalent of pvping four hours a day, multiple days a week. Thus, they should be compensated equally or even better (however inclined they are to believe their time was spent more arduously). It is their belief that understanding the nuances of a raid, and how they change given the encounter, is more important than understanding the nuances of a pvp encounter, and how they change given the class and the player at the keyboard. Raid gear should whitewash PvP nuances that seperate great PvPers from PvErs out for a "taste" of PvP. I cannot agree with this. I firmly believe PvP gear should trump PvE gear in a PvP encounter, as PvE gear trumps PvP gear in a PvE encounter. One can argue that shady or cowardly tactics are employed to acquire PvP gear, that raiding offers a more legitimate challenge. I won't say they are wrong about the low-life tactics employed by some PvPers. But there are plenty of sub-par raiders who benefit from the few that are actually leading the raid, instructing them line by line, from one encounter to the next. They are simply a member of the flock and offer nothing more than strict obedience and the numbers required. These players are the bread and butter of the brains behind it all, just as moochers thrive off real PvPers, and real PvPers benefit from the uncomposed moochers. What is really at stake here is that tried and true Raiders don't want to loose to low-life, shady pseudo-pvpers, and tried and true PvPers don't want to loose to any old member of the flock simply because his gear procced. Give PvPers gear that works in harmony with the nuances of PvP, and let raiders have gear that works with the nuances of Raiding. Let wits, execution , revision and a bit of luck work out all the rest. </blockquote>

Paikis

07-07-2009, 02:48 PM

<cite>Ekeleferal wrote:</cite><blockquote>Being unable to stomach it, does not mean it isn't a "meal". PvP, to a PvPer, is the "meat and potatoes" of the game. To them, PvE isn't even a gravy. It is the four, agonizing hours of cooking time required before you may enjoy your meal. The confrontation is PvErs who enjoy a "taste" of PvP vs PvPers who survive on pvp; it sustains their gameplay. For a true PvPer the reward isn't the accumulation of great gear. It is the satisfaction of taking down a worthy opponent, or surviving the onslaught of an unworthy opponent(s). The same is true for a through-and-true PvEr. The reward isn't the gear but taking down a diffucult Raid boss; devising a new strategy and correcting the errors of old ones. The sense of accomplishment is the driving force behind a raider, and a PvPer. The gear is the means by which greater endeavors may be taken, frailties are diminished and the gap between failure and success is bridged. The trials and diffuculties of these realms of gameplay are different and entirely seperate, almost. The compensation for Raiding infringes upon the experiences and outcomes of PvP encounters. The same isn't true for the compensation of PvPing. Acquiring PvP gear will not amend any shortcomings within the realm of Raiding as it is a very tiered gauntlet. A raid of PvPers donning PvP gear will not surmount the greatest PvE raid content, contrarily, PvErs donning the loot of conquered Raid-Bosses will have a great advantage over the former. This is the heart of the issue. I believe what most PvPers want is compensatory gear that is advantageous in PvP alone. The issues with how that gear is obtained and whether or not it was/is diffucult to obtain, isn't as important as how the gear compensates. Well made, balanced gear should be designed to lessen a characters flaws and augment their strengths, instead of overwhelming an enemy player with offhanded effects. If the gear cannot predetermine a victor than a player's wits and execution will take the reigns; this is what a real PvPer wants. From what I can glean I can only conclude PvErs believe that all time spent, is time spent equally. Spending four hours a day, multiple days a week is the equivalent of pvping four hours a day, multiple days a week. Thus, they should be compensated equally or even better (however inclined they are to believe their time was spent more arduously). It is their belief that understanding the nuances of a raid, and how they change given the encounter, is more important than understanding the nuances of a pvp encounter, and how they change given the class and the player at the keyboard. Raid gear should whitewash PvP nuances that seperate great PvPers from PvErs out for a "taste" of PvP. I cannot agree with this. I firmly believe PvP gear should trump PvE gear in a PvP encounter, as PvE gear trumps PvP gear in a PvE encounter. One can argue that shady or cowardly tactics are employed to acquire PvP gear, that raiding offers a more legitimate challenge. I won't say they are wrong about the low-life tactics employed by some PvPers. But there are plenty of sub-par raiders who benefit from the few that are actually leading the raid, instructing them line by line, from one encounter to the next. They are simply a member of the flock and offer nothing more than strict obedience and the numbers required. These players are the bread and butter of the brains behind it all, just as moochers thrive off real PvPers, and real PvPers benefit from the uncomposed moochers. What is really at stake here is that tried and true Raiders don't want to loose to low-life, shady pseudo-pvpers, and tried and true PvPers don't want to loose to any old member of the flock simply because his gear procced. Give PvPers gear that works in harmony with the nuances of PvP, and let raiders have gear that works with the nuances of Raiding. Let wits, execution , revision and a bit of luck work out all the rest. </blockquote>+1Couldn't have said it better myself. One thing though, nesting is evil!

Azekah1

07-07-2009, 02:51 PM

<cite>Ekeleferal wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Being unable to stomach it, does not mean it isn't a "meal". PvP, to a PvPer, is the "meat and potatoes" of the game. To them, PvE isn't even a gravy. It is the four, agonizing hours of cooking time required before you may enjoy your meal. The confrontation is PvErs who enjoy a "taste" of PvP vs PvPers who survive on pvp; it sustains their gameplay. For a true PvPer the reward isn't the accumulation of great gear. It is the satisfaction of taking down a worthy opponent, or surviving the onslaught of an unworthy opponent(s). The same is true for a through-and-true PvEr. The reward isn't the gear but taking down a diffucult Raid boss; devising a new strategy and correcting the errors of old ones. The sense of accomplishment is the driving force behind a raider, and a PvPer. The gear is the means by which greater endeavors may be taken, frailties are diminished and the gap between failure and success is bridged. The trials and diffuculties of these realms of gameplay are different and entirely seperate, almost. The compensation for Raiding infringes upon the experiences and outcomes of PvP encounters. The same isn't true for the compensation of PvPing. Acquiring PvP gear will not amend any shortcomings within the realm of Raiding as it is a very tiered gauntlet. A raid of PvPers donning PvP gear will not surmount the greatest PvE raid content, contrarily, PvErs donning the loot of conquered Raid-Bosses will have a great advantage over the former. This is the heart of the issue. I believe what most PvPers want is compensatory gear that is advantageous in PvP alone. The issues with how that gear is obtained and whether or not it was/is diffucult to obtain, isn't as important as how the gear compensates. Well made, balanced gear should be designed to lessen a characters flaws and augment their strengths, instead of overwhelming an enemy player with offhanded effects. If the gear cannot predetermine a victor than a player's wits and execution will take the reigns; this is what a real PvPer wants. From what I can glean I can only conclude PvErs believe that all time spent, is time spent equally. Spending four hours a day, multiple days a week is the equivalent of pvping four hours a day, multiple days a week. Thus, they should be compensated equally or even better (however inclined they are to believe their time was spent more arduously). It is their belief that understanding the nuances of a raid, and how they change given the encounter, is more important than understanding the nuances of a pvp encounter, and how they change given the class and the player at the keyboard. Raid gear should whitewash PvP nuances that seperate great PvPers from PvErs out for a "taste" of PvP. I cannot agree with this. I firmly believe PvP gear should trump PvE gear in a PvP encounter, as PvE gear trumps PvP gear in a PvE encounter. One can argue that shady or cowardly tactics are employed to acquire PvP gear, that raiding offers a more legitimate challenge. I won't say they are wrong about the low-life tactics employed by some PvPers. But there are plenty of sub-par raiders who benefit from the few that are actually leading the raid, instructing them line by line, from one encounter to the next. They are simply a member of the flock and offer nothing more than strict obedience and the numbers required. These players are the bread and butter of the brains behind it all, just as moochers thrive off real PvPers, and real PvPers benefit from the uncomposed moochers. What is really at stake here is that tried and true Raiders don't want to loose to low-life, shady pseudo-pvpers, and tried and true PvPers don't want to loose to any old member of the flock simply because his gear procced. Give PvPers gear that works in harmony with the nuances of PvP, and let raiders have gear that works with the nuances of Raiding. Let wits, execution , revision and a bit of luck work out all the rest. </blockquote></blockquote>Im gonna quote that in another color, because it was so good!

Paikis

07-07-2009, 02:57 PM

There is one thing in the WALL OF TEXT I wanted to highlight... I brang it up in another thread, but Im going to say it again.How is people AoEing on the docks any different to the drones who go on raids and are just there? Notice how Venril was always complained about? Because EVERYONE had to be paying attention, that fight alone shows how many drones raid guilds are forced to take along.How many people know of bards or enchanters that suck completely, but you take on your raids because their class has nice buffs? These people get gear. how is it any different to people AoEing the docks?

jam3

07-07-2009, 05:08 PM

- Major issue is definately how the pvp gear is really nothing great, the swashbuckler BP and pants are basicly the same pieces from the Veeshans Peak ROK set with more health and critical mitigation.- The amount of time it takes for someone who would join my guild to get 4 pieces of TSO set gear, and a few pieces of jewelery would probably be quicker than getting your PVP Pants and BP. Why pvp when you can raid and get gear much much quicker.- In RoK they had a lot of nice jewelery pieces like the banshee loop, shifting band, shifting buckler, and the bandolier. They should think about making more unique items that are helpful in pvp situtations that people would WANT to use over the best raid gear.

Orthureon

07-08-2009, 03:08 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is one thing in the WALL OF TEXT I wanted to highlight... I brang it up in another thread, but Im going to say it again.How is people AoEing on the docks any different to the drones who go on raids and are just there? Notice how Venril was always complained about? Because EVERYONE had to be paying attention, that fight alone shows how many drones raid guilds are forced to take along.How many people know of bards or enchanters that suck completely, but you take on your raids because their class has nice buffs? These people get gear. how is it any different to people AoEing the docks?</blockquote>AoEing the docks or anywhere will NOT be a problem once they change it to status writs and enable variable status rewards. Until that happens Exiles will always use that as their premium ammo. If that changes, well I am not sure what else they could really say.

Bloodfa

07-08-2009, 03:38 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is one thing in the WALL OF TEXT I wanted to highlight... I brang it up in another thread, but Im going to say it again.How is people AoEing on the docks any different to the drones who go on raids and are just there? Notice how Venril was always complained about? Because EVERYONE had to be paying attention, that fight alone shows how many drones raid guilds are forced to take along.How many people know of bards or enchanters that suck completely, but you take on your raids because their class has nice buffs? These people get gear. how is it any different to people AoEing the docks?</blockquote>AoEing the docks or anywhere will NOT be a problem once they change it to status writs and enable variable status rewards. Until that happens Exiles will always use that as their premium ammo. If that changes, well I am not sure what else they could really say.</blockquote>I'm sure they'll come up with something.

Cloakentuna

07-08-2009, 04:23 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is one thing in the WALL OF TEXT I wanted to highlight... I brang it up in another thread, but Im going to say it again.How is people AoEing on the docks any different to the drones who go on raids and are just there? Notice how Venril was always complained about? Because EVERYONE had to be paying attention, that fight alone shows how many drones raid guilds are forced to take along.How many people know of bards or enchanters that suck completely, but you take on your raids because their class has nice buffs? These people get gear. how is it any different to people AoEing the docks?</blockquote>AoEing the docks or anywhere will NOT be a problem once they change it to status writs and enable variable status rewards. Until that happens Exiles will always use that as their premium ammo. If that changes, well I am not sure what else they could really say.</blockquote>I'm sure they'll come up with something.</blockquote>They've got some of the best spin people I've ever seen, of course they will <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bloodfa

07-08-2009, 04:49 PM

<cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is one thing in the WALL OF TEXT I wanted to highlight... I brang it up in another thread, but Im going to say it again.How is people AoEing on the docks any different to the drones who go on raids and are just there? Notice how Venril was always complained about? Because EVERYONE had to be paying attention, that fight alone shows how many drones raid guilds are forced to take along.How many people know of bards or enchanters that suck completely, but you take on your raids because their class has nice buffs? These people get gear. how is it any different to people AoEing the docks?</blockquote>AoEing the docks or anywhere will NOT be a problem once they change it to status writs and enable variable status rewards. Until that happens Exiles will always use that as their premium ammo. If that changes, well I am not sure what else they could really say.</blockquote>I'm sure they'll come up with something.</blockquote>They've got some of the best spin people I've ever seen, of course they will <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>ZOMG, Karl Rove is an Exile!

Cloakentuna

07-08-2009, 05:05 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is one thing in the WALL OF TEXT I wanted to highlight... I brang it up in another thread, but Im going to say it again.How is people AoEing on the docks any different to the drones who go on raids and are just there? Notice how Venril was always complained about? Because EVERYONE had to be paying attention, that fight alone shows how many drones raid guilds are forced to take along.How many people know of bards or enchanters that suck completely, but you take on your raids because their class has nice buffs? These people get gear. how is it any different to people AoEing the docks?</blockquote>AoEing the docks or anywhere will NOT be a problem once they change it to status writs and enable variable status rewards. Until that happens Exiles will always use that as their premium ammo. If that changes, well I am not sure what else they could really say.</blockquote>I'm sure they'll come up with something.</blockquote>They've got some of the best spin people I've ever seen, of course they will <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>ZOMG, Karl Rove is an Exile!</blockquote>Wouldn't be suprised, we do have a Dirge in guild who has no deity that got a warning for charming the MT on an avatar!