New Expansion, Necros the new SUPPORT class. [Archive]

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Garlin1

07-01-2009, 06:31 PM

Reading some info from fan faire I noticed something talking about class changes. One mentioned Summoners that I wanted to share and get some people discussing. Its kinda a 50/50 for me. pre-epic people will rejoice, post-epic probably will not. There was a lits of each class archtype and what was getting changed. Most are getting some pretty nice changes, but yet, not us.SUMMONERS: <ul><li> Summoners will soon work in tandem with scout classes when it comes to buffing and debuffing.</li></ul>-Personally, when I made a necromancer I sought a DPS class. I would of been more then happy to create a chanter/bard archtype if I wanted to buff/debuff. Now, if they give us some nice utility that makes us "attractive" to groups then I applaud this change. They will have to do something that makes people think "hmm... necro lfg and a illy llly/coercer lfg.. which would be better for this group set up and or run.<ul><li>Improvements are to be made to the scout pets, making them much more valuable.</li></ul>- This is the part that I meant when I said pre or post-epic. Those with epics (some atleast) worked hard to get them. They talked about finding a way to make epics still appealing and useful with a raise in lvl cap and new equipment. Now I am sure we will find something that makes us drool and say "screw the procs etc on my epic" but atleast we can still summon the pet. Now before anyone says it, yes I do know that sometimes some fights are better for a scout pet to be summoned. I do understand this helps those leveling up or without an epic too. It still does nothing to HELP a necro be a sought after class.Scouts used to be a great pet in the days of KoS. I remember having to actually watch and use the detaunt because they did so much damage. Didn't take long after people complained that they went in and removed the innate DPS and Haste mods from the scout. I guess perhaps I am worried we will end up with a useless epic weapon. Dunno, still not what I thought would happen. Figured they would look at every pet. We are a pet class, each pet needs to remain useful in its own right. Currently the way the game is, most encounters are group encouters. Mage pet is going to remain the pet of choice.<ul><li> Changes are to be made to dumbfire pets in regard to damage and debuffing.</li></ul>- Simply make the pets avoid AoE damage and repoiste (Sp?). If they would live long enough on most fights they may actually do the damage they need to. Keep in mind folks this change can go in two ways. Never said they are going to "buff" the damage or what not.Anyways, just my rambling. I have played a necro from the beta. I have seen us at our prime and at our worst. We can DPS with the right setup no problem, but then again so can every other caster class. Turning us into a "support" class is silly. Making a pet that most stop using at max lvl better? Less you give it some nice AoE abilities, is silly. Now again, who knows. Maybe we will get some nifty new AA abilites that turn us into beasts, maybe the scout is gonna transform into Naggy and blow flames at everything. Then again maybe Luclin didn't blow up and is resting beneath the sea.

KERSTYNN

07-01-2009, 08:03 PM

I too am a bit worried with the direction they seem to be looking at going.How do you take a class that is known for its soloing ability leveling up and make it a buffer/debuffer? That just seems counter-intuitive to me. Granted I don't expect us to be DPS monsters, just keep us middle of the pack and I'd be a happy necro. We already have some fairly decent utility in that we can emergency rez, [Removed for Content] emergency heals, hearts (could have gotten a bit of a boost in how much they restore imo, but then that would prolly be too much to some), some debuffing already.I'm just scared that if they change us too much, that they will loose any of the "flavour" that the necro class has left. Would be nice if they could find a way to head back towards the eq1 necro archetype in their changes.~K~

Jasuo

07-01-2009, 09:42 PM

They aren't taking any of the solo aspect away...Some of those proposed changes could actually fix the parts of the class we've been complaining about. Swarm and dumbfire pets turning into a pure dd or dot with a debuff component and pet survivability improved are definitely pluses to the class. There was even rumors the scout pet might be reverted back to it's DoF state where it's auto attack was actually worthwhile. Mostly all the info given is too vague to really pull anything from and we'll have to wait till it hits test. Once it does hit test I certainly hope everyone copies their toons and tests the crap out of everything, we will need all the feedback we can get to help them properly implement everything.

Garlin1

07-01-2009, 10:48 PM

I have to disagree. Swarm pets have no baring on how well of a class we will be, can be, or were. Its such a small part of summoners its almost laughable. Now I hate to be negative on the whole Summoner issue. Heck look back at my old posts and I crusaded we were ok, if played right. Things have changed. The proc change (or coming change) changes things, the lack of our mythical pets scaling to lvls is total BS imo. I mean I figured we would get new pets, but figured that the mythical would atleast be somewhat useful.What are they doing for summoners? They are looking into the survivablity of our pets and dumb-fire pets. I can honestly say, I rarely had any problems with my regular pets dying.. Who care about dumbfire. They die, they became useless. A waste of cast time. As I said before I don't care if they make em immune to AoE and riposte. On well.I mean look at the enchanter classes. They are both support and great sources of DPS. They want to do nothing as far as I know (sure to early, but check out the other class changes mentioned vs ours) I can care less about being able to debuff a mob. I see it now "Ok Necro, go sacrifice yourself to cast your unholy thingamagig debuff that makes mobs puke from some random disease" No, I am not saying "HEAR ME GODS MAKE NECROS UBER" but hell, throw us a freaking bone.I think 90% of the community for necros can agree. Our class has been in shambles for awhile. It has always been tough to get a group at end-game, most raids only keep one spot for a summoner and most pick a conjy. I just want our class to belong somewhere where our dps matters to people as well as some sort of utility. Nearly every class is that, and are getting more things to make em better. Heck, HoTs are gonna leap to another target if it heals its current target to 100%. Bards and Chanters are getting more versatile buffs and debuffs. It goes on and on.. we get a better scout pet, which I will say again, the game is build on linked encounters.. mage pet will always do more damage on those types. The only "fix" you mention that I can see being near a "fix" is dumbfire, but as I said. Its such a small thing.Anyways, sorry to ramble on again.

Sabutai

07-02-2009, 01:55 AM

<cite>Garlin1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to disagree. Swarm pets have no baring on how well of a class we will be, can be, or were. Its such a small part of summoners its almost laughable. Now I hate to be negative on the whole Summoner issue. Heck look back at my old posts and I crusaded we were ok, if played right. Things have changed. The proc change (or coming change) changes things, the lack of our mythical pets scaling to lvls is total BS imo. I mean I figured we would get new pets, but figured that the mythical would atleast be somewhat useful.What are they doing for summoners? They are looking into the survivablity of our pets and dumb-fire pets. I can honestly say, I rarely had any problems with my regular pets dying.. Who care about dumbfire. They die, they became useless. A waste of cast time. As I said before I don't care if they make em immune to AoE and riposte. On well.I mean look at the enchanter classes. They are both support and great sources of DPS. They want to do nothing as far as I know (sure to early, but check out the other class changes mentioned vs ours) I can care less about being able to debuff a mob. I see it now "Ok Necro, go sacrifice yourself to cast your unholy thingamagig debuff that makes mobs puke from some random disease" No, I am not saying "HEAR ME GODS MAKE NECROS UBER" but hell, throw us a freaking bone.I think 90% of the community for necros can agree. Our class has been in shambles for awhile. It has always been tough to get a group at end-game, most raids only keep one spot for a summoner and most pick a conjy. I just want our class to belong somewhere where our dps matters to people as well as some sort of utility. Nearly every class is that, and are getting more things to make em better. Heck, HoTs are gonna leap to another target if it heals its current target to 100%. Bards and Chanters are getting more versatile buffs and debuffs. It goes on and on.. we get a better scout pet, which I will say again, the game is build on linked encounters.. mage pet will always do more damage on those types. The only "fix" you mention that I can see being near a "fix" is dumbfire, but as I said. Its such a small thing.Anyways, sorry to ramble on again.</blockquote>The actual proposed change is that they are adding the debuff to the swarm pets, the swarm pets are immune to AE dmg and they still do dmg. Sooooo, complaining that they are making a useless part of our dps arsenal useful again while adding utility to it AND complaining about it in the same breath just makes you look kinda like you didn't do any of your homework.

Garlin1

07-02-2009, 08:48 AM

They may be adding A debuff to the swarm pets, but the actual proposed change is to change how "dispatch" works and give us the ability to debuff magic while brigands will debuff melee. That is the "working in tandem with scouts" part. I believe they are looking to expand our current pet debuff TO swarm pets. At least from what i have gathered from many posts around the web. But ya know i like how I never did any "homework" while you sprout off stuff that isn't 100% either.

Sabutai

07-02-2009, 11:14 AM

From kalyynSummoners are being looked at. Pet survivability is going to be increased. Looking at making summoners a mage equivelant of Rogues in someway (Swashies/brigs will debuff melee damage, Summoners will debuff spell damage. Dumb-fire pets will now act like a spell with a debuff and will no longer be killed by aoe etc...Just sayin...

azraelteir

07-02-2009, 12:05 PM

<cite>Garlin1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li>Improvements are to be made to the scout pets, making them much more valuable.</li></ul>- This is the part that I meant when I said pre or post-epic. Those with epics (some atleast) worked hard to get them. They talked about finding a way to make epics still appealing and useful with a raise in lvl cap and new equipment. Now I am sure we will find something that makes us drool and say "screw the procs etc on my epic" but atleast we can still summon the pet. Now before anyone says it, yes I do know that sometimes some fights are better for a scout pet to be summoned. I do understand this helps those leveling up or without an epic too. It still does nothing to HELP a necro be a sought after class.</blockquote>Something to keep in mind here, the Mythical and Mythical pet are no longer going to be the top end. Our Mythical, as I understand it, is going to still be very viable but not as the high end weapon and the pet will stop scaling between 80-90. All summoners will go back to useing spell cast pets, so Master Spell pets will be highly sought after again. The Dev's do understand all the work put into the Mythical, so they are planning to keep it as a useable item (it still has awesome stats and abilities compared to almost anything else in the game), how they plan to do this I am not sure, I have heard people mention possibly allowing it to be turned into a charm, but I cant confirm any of this.Anyway, thats just what I have been hearing and reading from those who attented the panels at FF.

Garlin1

07-02-2009, 01:15 PM

It has been known for awhile they were trying to balance Necros to a rogueish state. What *I* read into it, is that we are gonna be move viable for our debuffs. IMO I don't think it really addresses the issue summoners have. Sure with the changes to buffs etc for bards/chanters being multi/raid wide it will open up spaces that may help in the long run. I would love for us to become more pet focused, if done in a flavorful way. Making pets survivability higher I don't believe is the way to do it. They have AA specs to do just that. Sure, it may change the way people spec, open up another ave to push the dps a bit higher. Its a bunch of maybes is the thing. No, nobody knows just how its gonna effect things down the road. I can only go off the past of changes to summoners and guess how its not going to help. To the issue of dumbfire pets. I still say its kicking a dead horse. Sure, preventing AoE damage IS A STEP in the RIGHT direction. Sure, giving them a debuff might actually make them more interesting, From what I have heard from people from fan faire, and read on other posts around the net, is only that the debuff is going to be our Pact line, This is no "upgrade" but simply turning back time to where they used to benefit from it anyways. Its like someone stealing your favorite CD and coming back a few months later and telling you they hated it and you can have it back. YAA thanks sony, I appreciate it. Again, a bunch of maybes who knows, maybe they are gonna add a debuff that increases spell damage or melee damage. However, take a look a the track record of SoE, its very unlikely they will add a debuff of any nature to a spell such as dumbfire that is going to make them that much more useful. Furthermore, the "addition" is only something that every class is going to get in some form. They already noted there are going to be no "new" spells. So no unique spells such as our undead horde line etc. Instead they are going to add a secondary effect to certain spells. The main thing to keep in mind about these also are they chain the effect not stack. So swarm pets would come out, deal the damage, and as they fade leave a debuff. Atleast that is how the devs have explained it. Still, might be some nice stuff.Onto the issue of the mythical. I still don't know what to think. I guess its better said that I am on the fence. They have not mentioned much information on what will happen. This is the issue they were trying to avoid when they were not sure if they were ever going to do epic weapons. It happened in EQ1 and to some degree were forced to do epic 1.5s and epic 2.0s and then to further it add a way to upgrade your 2.0 even more. With additions of new pets it will, as you lvl, make the mythical pointless. With the ability to Research master of a spell, everyone will have the master versions of their pets. As far as "stats" go, you will find better stuff I am quite sure on furture weapons. The idea of a charm is kinda nifty. I dunno if they would ever go that far. The rogue pet may be nice. I know they are talking about upgradeing its auto-attack, etc. Single target mobs never last long as it is. Its the major problem with a summoner in whole. We are masters of sustained damage. That is why we excel in a raid enviroment. Give us a mob that is meant to be burned quick, and we are in the middle of casting our 3rd or 4th DoT as it dies. This would give us a bit of burst DPS, albeit i'd rather recieve that in the forms of controlable damage (I.E Nukes, DoTs etc) which I know is asking a bit much as we are a DoT class.Look, I don't mean to sound all negative, or snippy towards any. I applaud a good conversation or banter of words back and forth about our class. Many of us are passionate about necros or the summoner class in whole. Many of us hold hope for the furture while others are still so jaded at the past changes its hard to see the gold beneath all the mud. I hope that we turn into something that when I shout "LFG" and two seconds later a illy shouts "LFG" that someone, somewhere has to actually think "Hmm which do I want" and not be told when I send a tell "Necro lfg" I get a snippy or sarcastic "Sorry, looking for DPS" remarks back.

Darkstar101

07-02-2009, 01:35 PM

Utility? I'd be happy to finally see a use for the empty concentration slot that been hanging over my head for years. Conjy's have a handfull of decent targetable buffs. Why not give us at least one good one?*edit typo*

PSmith

07-02-2009, 02:25 PM

In EQ1, I was a support class. Yes, I could lay out a decent amount of DPS, but I could also do other things.My pet could lock down one mob, I could lock down 1 more (Screaming Terror), 2 if the RNG was liking me. At the same time I was repowering the casters and healing (Lifetapping my target then transferring the HP to the Fighters or my pet as needed).Several times I went into LDoN dungeons with a group and the healers were either a Paladin and me, a Druid and me, or me alone. And we rarely lost people. (After standing around for 20 minutes, I went into one dungeon after forcing the others to grab whoever was available, so we had no healer except me. We didn't lose a person and the Illusionist said it was one of the most fun runs he'd had. We were NOT a normally-balanced group.)I'm not a raider; I don't belong to a large guild or a raiding guild. I'll never have my Epic, obviously.I like the dumbfire pets, except for their propensity to drop dead from AoEs. Make 'em immune, and I'll be happy. Currently I bury my targets under the dumbfires, under my Attack Turkeys, my flying dagger, and my Fighter pet. I quite often start a fight with 12 pets hitting the target. Well, until the AoE goes off, anyway.(If the corpses from the dumbfires would survive for a few seconds, they'd make perfect fodder for the Undead Tide.)Add back in my ability to transfer power and health to others (say by group buffs that move mana and HP from me to them) and I think we'd be quite useful in groups. Just as long as I can grab HP fast enough to keep up with what I'm converting / transferring, obviously.The dumbfires need to be AoE-immune. They don't need to be DoTs.When we use the normal pet healing spells (haven't checked the Tainted Heals), it heals both the pet and our charmed pet. It'd be nice if the dumbfires also got the healing. Maybe they'd last a few seconds longer.Undead Tide needs to be faster re-use. (Come to that, my Attack Turkeys need a faster reset, also. They're something like 5 minutes right now.)One person suggested that UT should gen a mob every 5 seconds for 1 minute, each mob to last for 1 minute. An interesting idea, I think. Maybe for 20 seconds, with it continuing to run for 10 more seconds (2 more mobs) each time there's a corpse available at each termination time. Keep providing corpses, it continues to run.Undead Tide also really, really needs to be on the Attack button. It's very frustrating to be fighting 3 mobs, sic the UT on 'em, and have them come back and stand around doing nothing after the first mob dies.Someone suggested something similar to UT, with undead healers running about healing / rezzing the injured / dead, would be fun, too. Nothing like lots of mobs on the field to confuse things nicely.Being able to animate a corpse that's just lying around and send it in to the attack would also be nice, as someone was pointing out. That's the whole point of being a necromancer, after all, killing your opponents and then getting them to help kill their friends.(One other thing. If a necromancer uses the Attack Turkey tinkered item, it'd be so much better if it were Zombie Butterballs attacking, rather than feathered gobblers. Just sayin'.)

Garlin1

07-02-2009, 02:57 PM

I would love some useful utility. I still would love the old buff spells from the start of eq2 (remember, the one that NEVER worked but stated 1% chance for group members to lifetap on a melee hit) That would be something that would def make us a bit more attractive.EQ1 necros were more of a hybrid. We did amazing dps in raids because we had a TON of DoTs that actually lasted for upwards of a minute. We could cycle 5-6 spells, sit back and mana-dump clerics or what not. IF we were in line more of that nature it would be kinda nice. Our hearts become more and more useless as time goes by with upgrades in equipment and other classes mana regen buffs.Everyone plays a bit different then the next, its interesting to see how some play their class. I will admit, I never used dumbfire pets to much, except my lovely zombie (Yaa, sure wish you were that DoT still) The dagger? I know its DPS, but parse it. You can cast one DD or DoT and do 3-4x the damage of it. Attack turkeys are fun I will admit, but again dps is kinda on the low side.Your suggestion about raising a corpse to attack a mob. EQ1 it was wake the dead, one of the most entertaining spells ever created. Nothing like killing a God and dueling your buddy just to have it pop back up and scare the crap out of everyone. Quarm, you are my favorite pet. I doubt that would ever happen since they gave us undead horde. Horde is fine the way it is imo. It does great damage, baring any AoEs, and the recast time isn't bad. Don't want to waste it on a regular encounter, wait for the boss (if your doing a dungeon run).The idea is to make dumbfire immune to AoE. Its something everyone has screamed about for awhile. It is a improvement. As far as I know they have no intentions of making it a DoT. Though, I would rather have another DoT then a bunch of pets that swarm the target, undead horde suits me just fine for that purpose. Make them immune to AoE and you got a winner. Remember though, more then half the time dumbfires die of riposte, not AoE.Pet healing to dumbfires, would be interesting. Though, they have such little hp it would make it almost useless. I think adding in a undead healer pet (I assume is what you mean) is a concept from DAoC. I would be all for a priest type pet. I dunno bout rezzing people. We already have FD and a rez spell. Would be nice to watch a pet sit back and cast some group heal/wards or target people with the lowest hp with a heal. Might actually be worth losing pet DPS to add that kind of utility. Heck, that alone would probably make us very much attractive. "well, we lose some DPS, but we can have a bit of sustained dps from the necro and his pet will help somewhat in keeping the group alive." Great idea you have there. The common theme I am seeing in most posts is the dumbfire pets. I guess that is one of my biggest problems. With so much wrong its hard to see something as small as this the big focus. I mean just because you add a new body to that old junker doesn't make it run any better. Sure, its prettier, but it still has the same engine underneath. I've never so much had a problem with DPS. Heck, give me TC or Upbeat Tempo and I can outdps the best of them. I still find the biggest problem that comes from people not wanting a summoner class is the lack of anything beneficial. Our FD and Rez ability has lost most of its meaning with the addition to tinkering. There were times I would say "hey guys, lets give it a min my FD has bout 40 secs left before we try this boss" and I would get the reply "Nae, X has a fd and rez item"

Jasuo

07-02-2009, 04:01 PM

Pretty sure the dumbfires we know now are going bye bye thanks to damage shields and massive ae's limiting their useability down to random trash encounters. It's a very good thing they are going back to pure dot form because they'll actually get some use and also make splurt from the mythical do it's job moreso...if we get to keep the splurt bonus when the mythicals change to whatever they have planned for them that is.

PSmith

07-02-2009, 04:19 PM

First to keep in mind is that some of the things I was suggesting weren't original with me; others made them first, such as the healer undead.I don't have a DPS parser, so I've no idea what provides good, bad, or indifferent DPS. Given that I've effectively no access to Fabled gear or Adept 3 spells, most people here would probably turn up their noses in disgust at how low my DPS probably is.I don't worry about that. The zombie dumbfire goes out because he provides DPS and he's got his own little taunt; he's pulled things off me before with it. The dagger goes out for the same reason. I've hit mobs with it and had them charge me, then turn and attack the dagger. (It's a <my level> VVV mob, by the way.) I send the turkeys out when they're available because I made 14 or 15 of those things while going up 10 skill points in Tinkering; might as well get some use out of them.EQ1 we transferred life to others. EQ2, maybe a couple of healer undead would be a more thematic idea. Cast the spell, then 1-3 (depending on ranking) undead pop up and start casting low- to medium-powered heals into the group or raid members.A similar idea might be other specialist undead that we can raise. For instance, an undead whose entire purpose is to chain-cast Dispel on your target when you cast the spell. Or maybe an undead monk whose sole job is to Stun / Knockdown the target mob. Obviously his attacks would be more resistable than a Monk doing the same. Note that these specialists would be in addition to our regular pet, not replacements. They'd only be up for the duration of a fight.Or, maybe not. Maybe we should have them use up Concentration spots. You bring in a necro, you bring in 3 or 4 extra living-impaired group members, your very own buff-bots. This is what our Ooze pet should have been. You cast it, a second pet window pops up, separate controls for attack, stay, et cetera. I wouldn't mind having that at all, one column of info about my group members, a second of info about (and controls for) my minions (insert maniacal laughter here). Our regular pet is our lieutenant, the others are our henchthings.The more I think about it, the more I think that with DoTs being so severely gimped in EQ2, it'd really be nice to have necros being, in effect, one-man-groups providing lots of utility by summoning all the adventurers who've died before in wherever-it-is-we-are.However, if we get undead bards, then the only musical instrument they can use is the bagpipe.

urgthock

07-02-2009, 05:15 PM

Something I think many of you are forgetting about the issue of turning the dumbfire pets into either a dd or a dot... the dmg from them will be affected by + spell crit and + base spell damage (as well as splurt from the mythic if they are dots). In other words, shared stats for these (now) spells that used to be effectively temp pets. Seems like a BIG plus to me.

Sabutai

07-02-2009, 05:19 PM

<cite>Garlin1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would love some useful utility. I still would love the old buff spells from the start of eq2 (remember, the one that NEVER worked but stated 1% chance for group members to lifetap on a melee hit) That would be something that would def make us a bit more attractive.EQ1 necros were more of a hybrid. We did amazing dps in raids because we had a TON of DoTs that actually lasted for upwards of a minute. We could cycle 5-6 spells, sit back and mana-dump clerics or what not. IF we were in line more of that nature it would be kinda nice. Our hearts become more and more useless as time goes by with upgrades in equipment and other classes mana regen buffs.Everyone plays a bit different then the next, its interesting to see how some play their class. I will admit, I never used dumbfire pets to much, except my lovely zombie (Yaa, sure wish you were that DoT still) The dagger? I know its DPS, but parse it. You can cast one DD or DoT and do 3-4x the damage of it. Attack turkeys are fun I will admit, but again dps is kinda on the low side.Your suggestion about raising a corpse to attack a mob. EQ1 it was wake the dead, one of the most entertaining spells ever created. Nothing like killing a God and dueling your buddy just to have it pop back up and scare the crap out of everyone. Quarm, you are my favorite pet. I doubt that would ever happen since they gave us undead horde. Horde is fine the way it is imo. It does great damage, baring any AoEs, and the recast time isn't bad. Don't want to waste it on a regular encounter, wait for the boss (if your doing a dungeon run).The idea is to make dumbfire immune to AoE. Its something everyone has screamed about for awhile. It is a improvement. As far as I know they have no intentions of making it a DoT. Though, I would rather have another DoT then a bunch of pets that swarm the target, undead horde suits me just fine for that purpose. Make them immune to AoE and you got a winner. Remember though, more then half the time dumbfires die of riposte, not AoE.Pet healing to dumbfires, would be interesting. Though, they have such little hp it would make it almost useless. I think adding in a undead healer pet (I assume is what you mean) is a concept from DAoC. I would be all for a priest type pet. I dunno bout rezzing people. We already have FD and a rez spell. Would be nice to watch a pet sit back and cast some group heal/wards or target people with the lowest hp with a heal. Might actually be worth losing pet DPS to add that kind of utility. Heck, that alone would probably make us very much attractive. "well, we lose some DPS, but we can have a bit of sustained dps from the necro and his pet will help somewhat in keeping the group alive." Great idea you have there. The common theme I am seeing in most posts is the dumbfire pets. I guess that is one of my biggest problems. With so much wrong its hard to see something as small as this the big focus. I mean just because you add a new body to that old junker doesn't make it run any better. Sure, its prettier, but it still has the same engine underneath. I've never so much had a problem with DPS. Heck, give me TC or Upbeat Tempo and I can outdps the best of them. I still find the biggest problem that comes from people not wanting a summoner class is the lack of anything beneficial. Our FD and Rez ability has lost most of its meaning with the addition to tinkering. There were times I would say "hey guys, lets give it a min my FD has bout 40 secs left before we try this boss" and I would get the reply "Nae, X has a fd and rez item"</blockquote>I still don't understand your posts. You say we need more than what they're giving us for utility? How is providing a HUGE debuff to all things magical not utility? Please explain that to me because it seems from your posts you really don't understand the changes they are putting into place for summoners.

azraelteir

07-02-2009, 05:33 PM

I made the original posting about the possibility of a change to Undead Tide. When cast you get a group of pets that (when I have looked at them with Aura Sense up) I see there are mages and healers that I can see, and then some melee classes in the mix. My suggestion was to set up Undead Tide where those classes would function as they would in a regular group, the healers could run around like the Warden's Fairy and heal, group/raid members (and I did say that it would be fun to have a possibility of a rez proc, perhaps based on a % of a chance, maybe even be group/raidwide up to X number of players... who knows). The mage classes would of course DPS, maybe toss some Debuffs or increase mana regen. The fighter pets would act much like the Mystic's Ancestral Sentry pet that acts as a ward, taking damage for the tank it was cast on, only in this case they would absorb damage from all members of the group/raid (AoE damage and such) so a certain degree. And finally for the scout pets, debuffs, group buffs and DPS.My only thought with throwing that out there was to consider an alternate idea for Undead Tide, something to all more utility to the spell and to help justify the long recast timer. But this was only one of a few possibly ideas I threw out in the Sticky thread.

azraelteir

07-02-2009, 05:41 PM

It doesn't seem to me that he is complaining about the changes, but offering his thoughts with regards to other ideas that have been thrown out there. I am skeptical about the changes myself, but I am reserving judgment until I have had a chance to test the changes for myself. Personally I feel if the changes are done properly and with respect to the classes that are being changed, then this could be a very very positive step in the right direction for summoners across the board. But till I see more information, I dont see any reason to dispute the idea.

Garlin1

07-02-2009, 06:13 PM

That is a good point, but the question is are they going to be a DD or DoT? 90% of the posts I have read so far is mentioning making them immune to AoE. A few have mentioned a possible change to a DD or DoT only. I can see them reverting our zombie pet back to its old form (for those not around in early days it used to be a DoT, a very nice one - Or was that the DD? it sure has been awhile). Another DD or DoT (or 2 if they change zombie too) would be a very welcoming change. Before the DoF changes we were fine imo. I remember beta testing DoF and logging into a swarm of spells popping up. The only good change I remember from them was allowing everyone to get lifetap and lich form at earlier lvls. Here is to hoping =)

Garlin1

07-02-2009, 06:44 PM

Sab, you attack me at every corner, nice thanks. I tried to explain myself as far as what I meant by utility. I guess I am not making myself clear. I'm sorry. I mearly tried to state that creating a role for us to debuff magic imo isn't a step in the right direction. All they are doing is nerfing one classes sought after ability and giving part of it to summoners. YES <------- It is a nice thing to be able to HUGELY debuff magic. There happy I said it? No I still do not think it is enough for utility, a step in the right direction? Sure. I mean we can now benefit the whole archtype for sorcs rather then just locks. Far as understanding bulletion points. (these are from Fan faire posts of attendies, friends who went to fan faire etc)<ul><li>Changing the roles of Dumbfire pets. Looking at making them a DD/DoT or making them immune to AoE to allow them to last longer in instances and raids. </li></ul><ul><li>They are going to do exstensive look into the scout pet. Looking into increasing auto-attack dmg as well as skill based dmg.</li></ul><ul><li>Working in tandem with scouts to buff/debuff. Its been told already what the debuff portion is. We are going to debuff magic resistance. Scouts will retain the ability to debuff melee resistance. This IS a important change due to the fact there are only going to be 4 schools of resistance now. </li></ul><ul><li>There are going to be no new spell lines. They are looking into adding secondary effects to certain spells. This is supposed to be where Dumbfire pets are going to be given a debuff ability. What was stated also is that both effect (if spells are given secondary effects) will not happen at once but chain. From what I have gathered so far is when A effect of X spell ends B effect will start. I guess that would mean "Necro casts swarm pets, (I would almost bet money its going to be our zombie dumbfire being changed for the debuff) damage is dealt and spell ends leaving a secondary effect</li></ul><ul><li>New sub-class and Class tree. They are looking at ways to make it viable to spec for two pets at once while not losing the benefits of speccing just one pet and going a different AA route. 50 extra AAs pet tree. Final class ability will require a certain criteria to be met in AA tree.</li></ul>Thank you Azr, I am not trying to seem like I am complaining. Heck, I welcome any positive change but I do have my thoughts of what is going to be a change that does nothing but keeps us on the same field of play we are not and what is going to benefit a group setup as a whole. IMO the only thing they are doing is retooling just about every class out there (Nerfing some and creating the ability to group/raid wide their buffs) which makes some classes only needed once per setup while making it almost required to work in tandem with other classes for a succesful group/raid -I.E Brigand and Necro in a raid to make sure each member does max damage on targets. How does this fix anything? BAD SCOUTS we are going to give Summoners the ability to debuff magic now?Why do I feel this way? Look at almost everytime they found a class lacking. They went to lengths to make them a better place in EQ. Chanters found their dps to be below ave. They found themselves only being buff/debuff bots in groups for the best part. Sony heard their call and bam created what we have today. Sure, they went through changes and were nerfed from time to time. Some were needed. I remember doing unrest with a channy who sprinted every opt to deal extra damage based on their ability to do extra dam with less mana. Look at SKS. They had about not place in the tank world. People wanted a guardian for their ability to mitigate damage so well or Zerkers because they were dps power houses. They got buffed up quite nice. They got nerfed and cried foul and I remember the days where tons of SKS were canceling accounts etc to prove a point. They were fixed again. I can go on and on but I guess you get the point. What angers me the most about the changes is the constant promises of devs to look the summoner class and try and work a way to fix us. I remember a DEV posting about making us in line with scouts. Maybe this is what they meant I dunno.Besides, I have the right to be angry if I want to be. I mean these are MY opinions. I am not forcing them on anyone. Was a forum not a place for people to discuss their own thoughts? You are more then welcome to say "I think X idea of yours won't help, maybe this would be better" coming in and stating time and time again "you haven't done your homework" or "You still don't seem to understand the changes blah blah" does nothing for the point on what changes are coming for summoners. I have actually stated time and time again many changes DISCUSSED at FF by devs while you have stated only the change of the dumbfire pets. I mean one would almost think that you are the one without all the facts.

Sabutai

07-02-2009, 07:34 PM

I guess the point I was making is that you didn't really point out an opinion, you just said these changes suck. I kept pointing out the correct train of thought which is one of moving forward. There really is no lasting utility they could add to this game without destroying it. Shifting responsibilities is the only useful thing that I can think of to provide utility for us. Also I'm not sure where you read your information, but everywhere I've looked the changes are spelled out pretty clearly on where the debuff will be, and how it will be applied. Stating that the debuff will apply at the end of the dumbfire duration is just a dumb idea, why would a raid want something applied 40 secs into a fight?dumbfires have never been DDs, the only spell that was changed in the other direction was Rot, it was initially a DD but was changed to a quick duration dot to be more in line with class lore. Also since our mythical enhances dots, there is about a zero chance they will be changing anything we have into DDs. Even with the mythical going along the wayside, and this is the only major item that nothing was really stated about, the benefits on the mythical weapon itself will most likely outweigh any future weapon unless the weapon itself is applied to new drops in t10.The secondary effects you're talking about I believe are the changes to the AA lines and the new additions to the end lines.People have been coming to these boards complaining about one thing or another for a long time. Its the outlandish claims some make that deserve a quick 'jumping' on. If you can't provide meaningful change ideas why come and complain about the proposed changes?

Carthington

07-02-2009, 08:34 PM

Once the changes hit beta/test we'll be able to provide better feedback on this...Frankly, I'm open about it and want to see how well it will improve the class and the attractiveness. One thing that I am waiting to see though is if there's going to be a slight difference between conjuror's and necromancers. My only worry is a choice between one or the other however if memory serves correct it was mentioned at the panel that both summoners will be able to work together in a group/raid environment.So, we'll see....

azraelteir

07-02-2009, 09:01 PM

<cite>Carthington wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once the changes hit beta/test we'll be able to provide better feedback on this...Frankly, I'm open about it and want to see how well it will improve the class and the attractiveness. One thing that I am waiting to see though is if there's going to be a slight difference between conjuror's and necromancers. My only worry is a choice between one or the other however if memory serves correct it was mentioned at the panel that both summoners will be able to work together in a group/raid environment.So, we'll see....</blockquote>Well thats good to hear, I was a little worried that they might make all summoners about the same (so only need one), or spread the debuffs so far apart that one would be more desireable than the other (again only needing one and not the other). I admit I am looking forward to seeing this on test, hope they push it out sooner than later.

Garlin1

07-02-2009, 09:11 PM

For the person who thinks all my "thoughts" are without merit, here is just some info from FF. Read on ole jumper of people who wish to use these forums. So if you don't have anything useful to talk about, ideas on what you would like to see go away k? Perhaps you should do some "homework" about what is happening in the realm of EQ2 changes before coming on here and calling ideas DUMB. First off, wasn't my idea thanks, second, I did make some refs to what I thought MIGHT help the class. I don't know what you are trying at, but to be honest.. its already gotten old. Great guy to have in the necro community, kudos to ya budNow it was Chris “Aeralik” Kozak's turn... Chris had many key points outlined on the big screen. They included: <ul><li> Individual level cap increase to 90. </li><li> Guild level cap increased to 90. </li><li> New Alternate Achievements. </li><li> No new AA trees, class and sub-class trees will expand. <- O.o I got one right OMG. </li><li> Max AA points increased by 50. <-- Hey I mentioned this too. </li><li> Final Class Ability (Complete certain criteria in class tree to gain final ability.) </li><li> New spell upgrades.</li><li>No new spell lines, however some spells will gain secondary effects to keep them desirable. The event would happen in a chain, not at once. <--- OMG LOOK , Sec let me BOLD it for ya </li><li> </li><li> The all new AA slider! Just like you had in EQ! (PvP restricted to certain percentage.) </li><li> Many types of crit chances to be combined into one stat. The number shown in this combined stat will auto-adjust for the class type. (i.e. fighters would get melee crit chance.) </li><li> Mitigation types are to be reduced to just four types: Physical, Elemental, Noxious, Magical. </li><li> Buffs are to be consolidated. (i.e. all Templar group buffs combined to one spell instead of three.) </li><li> Items over level 60 will soon have a rating system that decrease the armor's effectiveness as you gain further levels. This will not affect AA abilities that trigger from or use this gear. </li></ul> Chris had some specific things to say on certain classes. PRIESTS: <ul><li> Healing is to be adjusted to be more in balance with the increases to max health that tanks gain. </li><li> Priests will get better tools to help balance the individual classes. </li><li> Priests that have heals that stun the caster will have those spells evaluated and possibly improved. </li><li> Druid heal over time spells (HOTs) will gain the ability to further heal even once the original target reaches full health. The additional amount would go to another group member that has been damaged. </li><li> AA adjustments to be made to priests in regard to melee abilities. </li></ul> SUMMONERS: <ul><li> Summoners will soon work in tandem with scout classes when it comes to buffing and debuffing. </li><li> Improvements are to be made to the scout pets, making them much more valuable. </li><li> Changes are to be made to dumbfire pets in regard to damage and debuffing. </li></ul> BARDS and ENCHANTERS: <ul><li> Adjustments are being made to key buffs to increase versatility. </li><li> Group spells will most likely become raid wide. </li><li> Most key buffs will be expanded to allow use on selected members of other groups within the raid. </li><li> Adjustments to be made in order to balance DPS versus support role. </li></ul> FIGHTERS: <ul><li> Balancing will come to focus more on hate gain and defense. Improvements are to be made to taunts and defensive stances. The focus is on tanking instead of DPS. </li><li> Block and deflection will be consolidated. </li><li> Brawlers will receive an advantage to avoidance buffs.</li></ul>Oh yes, before I forget since I never did any homework, I guess I should cite where some of my information is coming from. Enjoy<a href="http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=18665" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=18665</a>

Elwin

07-03-2009, 12:37 AM

My only hope is that the changes make us a much more desirable class for grouping.I shall decide if the changes are good/bad when they happen. /fingers crossed

Jasuo

07-03-2009, 03:14 AM

<cite>Garlin1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li>No new spell lines, however some spells will gain secondary effects to keep them desirable. The event would happen in a chain, not at once. <--- this is not the part to look at regarding the dumbfires</li></ul> SUMMONERS: <ul><li> Summoners will soon work in tandem with scout classes when it comes to buffing and debuffing.</li><li> Changes are to be made to dumbfire pets in regard to damage and debuffing.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^these 2 are however, and from your own quote </li></ul> </blockquote>

Jasuo

07-03-2009, 03:28 AM

<cite>Garlin1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> Hmm.. Oh thats right. Up to before I quit in DoF I was the top necro game wide. </blockquote>Not tryin' to pick some fight but I honestly have never heard of you and don't remember anyone mentioning a Giga ever in regards to WW stuff.But I certainly am glad you chimed in lol, found some old school screenshots doing a search that are a little helpful tbh.

Germs666

07-03-2009, 09:16 PM

<cite>Garlin1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> Chris had many key points outlined on the big screen. They included: <ul><li> Mitigation types are to be reduced to just four types: Physical, Elemental, Noxious, Magical. </li></ul><ul><li> </li></ul> SUMMONERS: <ul><li> Summoners will soon work in tandem with scout classes when it comes to buffing and debuffing. </li></ul> BARDS and ENCHANTERS: <ul><li> Adjustments to be made in order to balance DPS versus support role. </li></ul> FIGHTERS: <ul><li> Balancing will come to focus more on hate gain and defense. Improvements are to be made to taunts and defensive stances. The focus is on tanking instead of DPS. </li></ul></blockquote>Ok, this it what I make of this postLooks like chanters and tanks will be getting a DPS Nerf which may make us more attractive.4 types of mitigation debuffs/debuffers would be:- Physical (brig)-Elemental (conji)- Noxious (necro)- Magical (coercer or whoever has Tashiana)Raids are going to have to be selective and say "We dont have any warlocks so we don't need a necro to debuff" Many just may roll with scouts since there are 3 diff types of magical debuffs. I'm starting to think this makes scouts a better choice for DPS. I mean mages only help select mage classes and rogues help the tank/healers/scouts put out more damage.It doesn't seem "balanced"

Morghus

07-03-2009, 09:49 PM

<cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Garlin1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> Chris had many key points outlined on the big screen. They included: <ul><li> Mitigation types are to be reduced to just four types: Physical, Elemental, Noxious, Magical. </li></ul><ul><li> </li></ul> SUMMONERS: <ul><li> Summoners will soon work in tandem with scout classes when it comes to buffing and debuffing. </li></ul> BARDS and ENCHANTERS: <ul><li> Adjustments to be made in order to balance DPS versus support role. </li></ul> FIGHTERS: <ul><li> Balancing will come to focus more on hate gain and defense. Improvements are to be made to taunts and defensive stances. The focus is on tanking instead of DPS. </li></ul></blockquote>Ok, this it what I make of this postLooks like chanters and tanks will be getting a DPS Nerf which may make us more attractive.4 types of mitigation debuffs/debuffers would be:- Physical (brig)-Elemental (conji)- Noxious (necro)- Magical (coercer or whoever has Tashiana)Raids are going to have to be selective and say "We dont have any warlocks so we don't need a necro to debuff" Many just may roll with scouts since there are 3 diff types of magical debuffs. I'm starting to think this makes scouts a better choice for DPS. I mean mages only help select mage classes and rogues help the tank/healers/scouts put out more damage.It doesn't seem "balanced"</blockquote>I feel similarly about this. The sentiment may be good in its intention to help summoners, but I have a feeling this change may just end up with the opposite effect. Rather than help summoners get raid spots, it may just end up hurting all other mages by making them less desirable due to needing two seperate mitigation debuffers just for the mages.

Jasuo

07-04-2009, 12:08 AM

If you want to get technical about it all, they're returning the nox debuffs we used to have in t5 (pretty sure conjs had some equivalent) and removing them from brigs who originally took ours. Seems pretty fair tbh.

Davngr1

07-04-2009, 03:01 AM

<blockquote>- Physical (brig)-Elemental (conji)- Noxious (necro)</blockquote> this will be bad. no one gives a crap about nox debuffs, too many classes have this debuffs all ready. if anything conj might get a spot since elemental is a bit rough to find in raid and both conj and necro will fail when compared to coercer debuff. fact is soe needs to have two defensive debuff classes necro/brig and two offensive debuff classes conj/swash. that is the way, any thing that comes even close to what i quoted and it's pure fail imo

Elwin

07-06-2009, 02:42 AM

boo double post.. sorry. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />

Elwin

07-06-2009, 02:45 AM

This was also in Fanfaire notes. But no mention of Necro's myth pet.Conjuror Mythical Pet – This pet is class-defining for Conjurors. However with the current mechanic, that pet would stop leveling at low-to-mid 80’s. Will look at this going forward. It seems wrong to assume that because they're looking at Conj pet they'll look at Necro pet too, but does anyone know if they are? I'm a bit more than fond of my almost un-killable spider.

hailskins2006

07-08-2009, 04:35 PM

"Almost unkillable mythical spider"? Not even close. Guess you have not fought Kultak, Mynzak or Tyrranus - all of whom (among others) can one shot our mythical pets easily, espscially when you can't get a cure on the pet (e.g., an elemental dot). They need to make our pets AOE immune so that we don't spend half these fights recasting our pets (yes, that's even with the dimensional aperture AA). Unfortunately, Blood Pact doesn't help much, or for long, on these fights because the power cost is prohibitive, particularly in light of the power drains on some of these mobs. Additionally, it would be a good idea for SOE to make it so that we could cast any of our three pets - tank, scout and mage - in its "mythical" form - that would solve the apparent problem about no other pets getting used, and would make the mythical useful. If they are going to upgrade the weapon, they could allow us to use it as a charm, but still allow us to cast our mythical pet with it.

Davngr1

07-09-2009, 12:39 AM

yea it's gonna hurt not having a pet that has as much HP as the rest of the group :