Evac, and why I despise it [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Akaran2

07-01-2009, 04:10 PM

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes. This is feedback from a longtime player from EQ1 and EQ2 both. My primary toons are a guardian, a necro, and a fury. I also have a sk and a scout, and I've been here since game launch, so I know of what I speak. I also don't want to sound cocky or arrogant or whatever else.. I'm just so tired of this ability.Please understand, first and foremost:In EQ1, we had corpse recovery. That meant being able to get out of a bad situation sometimes was the difference between a 30 minute recovery and a five hour one. In EQ2's early days, we had shard recovery. Also another good reason to have evac. Now, however, we simply have armor damage and debt.If you die, you go back to the local spawn point if you are unable to get res'd.If you die, you can go back to the spot you were fighting at with (usually) all of your armor on and a minimal penalty.Yet, if you evac, you do the same thing, only without the small penalties attached.Yet, if you evac, you give up on any and all chance you may have had to win a fight or recover from it on the spot. Be it guardian stoneshield, sphere; necromancer, monk, bruiser, sk, tinkerer FD; fury emergencies; whatever else. The worst part about it is that evac is generally (not in all cases) given to the people (generaly, this isn't an insult to anyone) least qualified to know when to call it.A healer knows exactly how much power a spell takes to cast, how many mana pots they have, what emergencies they have up, if they have their manastone ready, if they have hearts/shards on hand. A guardian knows what to do to taunt, a FD class should know when to hit theirs - and if they hit it early, generally that just means they're out of the fight for a few - and doesn't screw up the entire group.But if you hit evac? You don't know what abilities are up, what methods the tank/healer/chanter has for immediate group-saves. Quite literally, unless you have split second voice comm, you really can't. This means you're making a decision that affects the entire group/if a zone is completed in time/if the fight can be won or lost/if someone gets their update/whatever without being able to know if it really should be used or not.Evac is a wonderful spell while soloing or traveling when you need to get from one point or another. Or when the group - as an entity as a whole - decides to go back to the zone in or the local spawn point or whatever. But as a tank, it is very, very frustrating to see the group get pulled to the ZI when you're an hour into a dungeon and fifteen feet from then ext named. As a necro, it's very frustrating to hit FD and then have the scout or wizard evac out. Or as a fury when I'm mid heal (or worse, just after Rebirth kicks in).What I'm asking for is that you please consider making evac an out-of-encounter spell. In modern groups - with all of the ways for groups to save themselves or at the very least get resurrected back on the spot - having the ability is nothing more than a detriment. A misclick and the entire group is screwed up for the next 30, 60 minutes, or even an hour's worth of playtime. No other spell in the game is so, well, broken, in the way that it can change a dungeon or quest group. Keep the ability, that's fine. Pull yourself out of a dungeon or across a zone when needed, that's fine.But pull me when I've still got 5 emergencies up, th ehealer has a deathward/rebirth ready and the necro can hit a feign? Absolutely utterly infuriating.And then I usually get read the riot act when I ask for it to be cast only when called. Meh. I trust people to play their class - but in regards to this spell, I've simply seen it misused too many times to trust the judgement of the average person behind it.Really hope I haven't offended anyone.. I probably have, and for that, I apologize.

hellfire

07-01-2009, 04:14 PM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I'm asking for is that you please consider making evac an out-of-encounter spell.</blockquote>No..then the whole purpose of haveing this spell is gone.

Aule

07-01-2009, 04:18 PM

I agree with you. It's insanely frustrating when the healer's at 15% pow and two people are dead so the (usually scout) decides all on their own that we need an evac. This usually occurs AFTER the hardest part of the fight is already behind you. Nevermind that I've still got channeling, the SK still has bloodletter up, and the other scout is a dirge and is battle ressing people.

RafaelSmith

07-01-2009, 04:19 PM

A well run raid should never have those with the Evac ability deciding when to use it.Should be the raid-leader that calls for a wipe or evac. Anyone that uses Evac without it being called needs to be told and learn not to do so.

piro

07-01-2009, 04:22 PM

totally agree with you one of the main reasons i dont do pug's much. people in this game with its super fast leveling can make high levels and still have no clue what to do as there class. i would say its not just a scout thing in general. i play with my wife and bro most the time and just us three can take zones a pug can only dream of.

Cucuy

07-01-2009, 04:23 PM

So far this doesn't sound so much like an evac issue as a know your group issue. A lot of these problems could be resolved by just communicating within the group. If you don't want the person with the evac button to make the decision, designate an evac caller or something. I'm sure some raid guild has figured it out...

hellfire

07-01-2009, 04:23 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>A well run raid should never have those with the Evac ability deciding when to use it.Should be the raid-leader that calls for a wipe or evac. Anyone that uses Evac without it being called needs to be told and learn not to do so.</blockquote>Same applies to group play.

Bloodfa

07-01-2009, 04:27 PM

It comes in real handy when there's an "oops". For example, clearing a room and the named comes. With the rest of the room. If you're moving through the zone fast, you might not be pausing to let all your temps refresh. So then it's sometimes easier to evac and come back after the mobs reset. Call it a 'mulligan'. But, if there's an issue with people popping it prematurely, call them noobs, tell them to get in voice chat, and instruct them to ask before popping it. It really is that simple. "Evac?" "No", "No", "No", "Yes" they should be able to use their own judgement. If the tank calls for evac, do it. If the Necro calls for it ... smack him and tell him to let the tank do his job. I assume, at least from the description in the first post, that we're talking about heroic instances?

RafaelSmith

07-01-2009, 04:27 PM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>A well run raid should never have those with the Evac ability deciding when to use it.Should be the raid-leader that calls for a wipe or evac.Anyone that uses Evac without it being called needs to be told and learn not to do so.</blockquote>Same applies to group play.</blockquote>Aye.....Its no different that dictating who the Dirges should prioritize rezzing during battle.......or the SK using Grave Sacrament.....etc etc etc.I mean I have tinkered-FD.....When tanking for a group.....I just dont hit it whenever I want and kill everyone.

Bloodfa

07-01-2009, 04:42 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>A well run raid should never have those with the Evac ability deciding when to use it.Should be the raid-leader that calls for a wipe or evac.Anyone that uses Evac without it being called needs to be told and learn not to do so.</blockquote>Same applies to group play.</blockquote>Aye.....Its no different that dictating who the Dirges should prioritize rezzing during battle.......or the SK using Grave Sacrament.....etc etc etc.I mean I have tinkered-FD.....When tanking for a group.....I just dont hit it whenever I want and kill everyone.</blockquote>That struck me as particularly amusing. Kind of like putting a hate transfer on ... the Warlock in the group. Funny, but probably not the best thing to do.

Akaran2

07-01-2009, 04:43 PM

Oh I agree - evac should flat out not be used in raids, tho I wasn't thinking that at all.As for calling for it.. that's the problem. I've grouped with too many people that have it that DON'T wait for a call (not that I ever really give one, with the odd rare exception) that just hit it when it looks like it "might" go bad. It's not a problem of communication... it's just a matter of "I think I need to hit it and I don't think I have time to ask about it because hey I have it so that must mean I know best." Most classes DO - but most classes DON'T have a single click 1 second cast ability that can end a night's adventuring on a bad note.A tank's job is to hold agro. A priest is to heal. A scout's / evacer's job isn't to sit there with their finger on the button waiting with baited breath to see if it's time to hit it.. it's to keep buffs up, debuffs down, and dps on. =

Yimway

07-01-2009, 04:45 PM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh I agree - evac should flat out not be used in raids, tho I wasn't thinking that at all.As for calling for it.. that's the problem. I've grouped with too many people that have it that DON'T wait for a call (not that I ever really give one, with the odd rare exception) that just hit it when it looks like it "might" go bad. It's not a problem of communication... it's just a matter of "I think I need to hit it and I don't think I have time to ask about it because hey I have it so that must mean I know best." Most classes DO - but most classes DON'T have a single click 1 second cast ability that can end a night's adventuring on a bad note.A tank's job is to hold agro. A priest is to heal. A scout's / evacer's job isn't to sit there with their finger on the button waiting with baited breath to see if it's time to hit it.. it's to keep buffs up, debuffs down, and dps on. =</blockquote>Considering there is virtually no penalty for death, why people ever hit it, I dunno.More times than not, evac only causes even more deaths.

RafaelSmith

07-01-2009, 04:47 PM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh I agree - evac should flat out not be used in raids, tho I wasn't thinking that at all.As for calling for it.. that's the problem. I've grouped with too many people that have it that DON'T wait for a call (not that I ever really give one, with the odd rare exception) that just hit it when it looks like it "might" go bad. It's not a problem of communication... it's just a matter of "I think I need to hit it and I don't think I have time to ask about it because hey I have it so that must mean I know best." Most classes DO - but most classes DON'T have a single click 1 second cast ability that can end a night's adventuring on a bad note.A tank's job is to hold agro. A priest is to heal. A scout's / evacer's job isn't to sit there with their finger on the button waiting with baited breath to see if it's time to hit it.. it's to keep buffs up, debuffs down, and dps on. =</blockquote>Again, its not a problem with the ability Evac its a problem with stupid players.To bad we can't Nerf stupid.

RafaelSmith

07-01-2009, 04:48 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>A well run raid should never have those with the Evac ability deciding when to use it.Should be the raid-leader that calls for a wipe or evac.Anyone that uses Evac without it being called needs to be told and learn not to do so.</blockquote>Same applies to group play.</blockquote>Aye.....Its no different that dictating who the Dirges should prioritize rezzing during battle.......or the SK using Grave Sacrament.....etc etc etc.I mean I have tinkered-FD.....When tanking for a group.....I just dont hit it whenever I want and kill everyone.</blockquote>That struck me as particularly amusing. Kind of like putting a hate transfer on ... the Warlock in the group. Funny, but probably not the best thing to do.</blockquote>I am particulary fond of being #2 or #3 or #4 fighter on a raid and randomily hitting Recapture.

woolf2k

07-01-2009, 05:04 PM

it's called communication...look into it. it works!and if the evacer still doesn't understand then kick or leave the group. simple.

Akaran2

07-01-2009, 05:14 PM

I'm not at all disagreeing with the idea of communication, or the idea of leaving the group if it's a problem. But this is one thing where you don't really know if there's going to /be a problem until everyone's been rgeatly inconvienced.I mean, you shouldn't have to ask at the startof the group: "No evac unless called," should you?You don't usually tell the tank to taunt or the healer to heal or the dirge to put on hate transfer. Yet, with evac...Btw, I'm not saying that there aren't people out there that know how and when to use it - don't think that I am. I am saying that if you miss a heal or a taunt you aren't gaurenteed to wipe the group. I am saying that if you hit it at the wrong time, even by accident, you've cost the group or raid what could be an hour+ worth of playtime. I hit rescue at the wrong time, 2 minute timer. I hit fd at the wrong time, 5 minute timer (I hate you, monks). I hit group regen at the wrong time, what, 20sec? timer. I hit evac at the wrong time... oh dear.

Kunaak

07-01-2009, 05:31 PM

you know what, I've been on both side of this arguement.I been a raiding berserker for 2 years, now. I've been a raiding assassin for about 2 months now. I have a great deal of experience on both ends of this issue. heres what I think...yeah, Evac can be incredibly frustrating sometimes - I cant tell you how many times, I been on vent yelling at some scout for evacing in the middle of a pull, because a dirge went down, or he thought something was wrong. there has been times I literally wanted to strangle the guy for it.like back when outer stronghold was new, and insanely hard, we spent 2 hours pulling Zraxth, figuring out how to do that fight and making little progress here and there, learning to control the adds, and when to use things like sanctuary, and when not to - this was well before it was common knowlege on how to clear that zone, and before the zone went through 3-4 rounds of gimping. so it was a real tough task. we were doing great. one of the last pulls, had him down to 20% and the adds just went down, so I really thought we had him that time, cause I had enough sparks to finish, and the adds just went down, meaning we had a good amount time before they came back, and hes not far from dead.then some random crap killed our templar - note, we also had a warden with us, to keep the fight going just in case - annnnd right then, someone evacd.and just as I am about to start cussing up a storm, 3 other people get on voice chat and were about to lose it. they were more mad then I was, cause we all wanted this kill bad.now, he did it, cause he said we didnt have sanctuary any more, and he thought it was gonna go bad real fast with 1 healer down. which, kinda made sense, but after 2 hours of pulling and trial and error, you figure he would have seen the healers die 100 times by then. so why evac just when we figured out the fight, and were so close to beating him?I dont know why he did it, I mean, I know why he said he did it, but still it doesnt seem like a answer that makes sense.so I know that side of the story.but as a scout, I been there, where I seen the MT down, the healer down, the mob beating on the dirge, and was like "ok, well this isnt gonna go well" and had to evac to save me and 2-3 other people. I think in my case, things have to be REALLY bad, before I evac, and thats only if I can. to be honest, I dont get in many bad groups, so the amount of times I had to evac to save a few people on repairs is few and far between.but I think the issue comes down to the person playing the scout.some people jump the gun, others like me probably wait alittle too long before trying to evac. if your scout knows what they are doing, evac should never be a issue.its not unreasonable to evac when your MT and healer is down is it?evac has saved me both as a tank and a assassin, but its also greatly [Removed for Content] me off by scouts with poor judgement. but changing evac, isnt gonna make many people happy, when the problem isnt the skill, but the person using it.

Krooner

07-01-2009, 05:33 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh I agree - evac should flat out not be used in raids, tho I wasn't thinking that at all.As for calling for it.. that's the problem. I've grouped with too many people that have it that DON'T wait for a call (not that I ever really give one, with the odd rare exception) that just hit it when it looks like it "might" go bad. It's not a problem of communication... it's just a matter of "I think I need to hit it and I don't think I have time to ask about it because hey I have it so that must mean I know best." Most classes DO - but most classes DON'T have a single click 1 second cast ability that can end a night's adventuring on a bad note.A tank's job is to hold agro. A priest is to heal. A scout's / evacer's job isn't to sit there with their finger on the button waiting with baited breath to see if it's time to hit it.. it's to keep buffs up, debuffs down, and dps on. =</blockquote>Again, its not a problem with the ability Evac its a problem with stupid players.To bad we can't Nerf stupid.Nature has a way of doing that for us IRL.<a href="http://www.darwinawards.com/">http://www.darwinawards.com/</a> As for changing evac.I would never want it changed. I dont even keep it on my hotbar. I would rather fight it out and see what happens.But. I think a fair option would be to include a mechanic in the group options to tie Evac in with group / YELL options.Set it to leader only. Leader would get a message. "Dingbat scout "insert name here" wants to hit the chicken switch and evac you now. Click yes or No.</blockquote>

urgthock

07-01-2009, 06:01 PM

Well, I can definitely understand the OPs position. Personally, 90 percent of my evac use is to move within zones to shorten travel time. The other 10 percent is highly situational. I will only ever evac in an instance where mobs don't respawn, and then I will only evac if the/all healer(s) and the/all tank(s) are dead. Then I will pop it and let fate decide if it goes off before I die. However, if the mob is almost dead, I say screw it and try to BLOW THE MOB UP!If mobs respawn, never evac unless you absolutely HAVE to, i.e. everyone is dead!Just my opinion on the matter of course.

ArivenGemini

07-01-2009, 06:39 PM

Talver

07-01-2009, 06:52 PM

As a Ranger, I never use evac unless it is called for. Usually just use it when I am lazy and want to get a fast trip back to the front of a zone <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

Akaran2

07-01-2009, 06:54 PM

<cite>ArivenGemini wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So, what you are in essence saying is because you cant communicate with your group members, you want to nerf anyone with evac?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Seriously though...it doesnt take a whole heck of a lot of effort to ask a new tank "do you want to call evacs or should I use my best judgement?" and after you have played the game for some time, you do, if you bother to, learn a little judgement as to when to call it.Sure, there will be times it wasn't in time, but there are also times when its perfect.In addition, let me add this scenario:You are in a tough fight, one of your DPSers is down, your tank just took that last hit and jumps past the purple bar club and right into "I sure wish I had a death effect on me" mode... you evac, take the rest of your group.. you know those squishies and the healer, with you.. this allows you to potentially recover from a GROUP wipe and make it only a couple peoples deaths to deal with.. lets you recover faster and hopefully learn from your tactical mistakes on that encounter.</blockquote>Trust me, I communicate just fine with my group. =p By communication doesn't stop someone from accidentially hitting a button or ignoring the tank, as some people have a tendancy to do.As for your scenario:No, I don't. The tank dies, the healer dies, the group dies. Yes, some fights are tougher than others. But, some zones also having respawning mobs that can make returning to that spot a chore. Sometimes you can recover a group like that with a single FD-dropping monk going back to the bodies instead of having to reclear everything. Sometimes, one of those squishies has an ability that can either prevent the group from wiping the rest of the way or can allow for faster, on the spot resurrections. Sometimes the healer has an ability to auto-resurrect themselves. Sometimes a caster can get off enough roots / stuns / huge nukes to end or delay a fight. Or a pet class can absorb the hits for a few seconds (depending). Or a miracle happens (in- or out-of-game deity intervention). I'm not just saying that as a tank, either. Same holds true if I'm healing, tanking, dpsing or anything else. The group wipes, it wipes; but let the wipe happen so you know all available options have been exhausted and the defeat of the group is the only possible outcome. Otherwise, by punching early, you have no idea what could have happened - just that you've set the group back by some period of time...and if it's gone south like that, it usually isn't a period of time that's less than ten to fifteen minutes. At least, it shouldn't be.

Giral

07-01-2009, 08:40 PM

i agree with you that evac has become 95 % useless in this game becuase death means the same thing as an evac except with a tiny price tag added to it. 10% = a few goldbut there is that other 5 % of the time that it does save a group . and losing an ability(any ability) to compensate for crappy players is a bad thing for the game as a whole. ( Like when the MT goes LD, and i have a freind who constantly LD's alot, and Evac has saved Many a group from his constant LDing)this game already plays itself, free masters, agro meters,auto attack timers, i hear more spell consolidations are coming(even tho the Vast majority has opposed this time and again)when the game starts removing abilities to compensate for scrub players then the game itself becomes a joke ( and we all know death in this game has become a joke becuase they removed shards and Real armor damage with reduce stas for each one lost .. becuase of scrub players, and dont give me the stuck shard garbage)easiest solution as mentioned is communication "we wont be using Evac in this group PERIOD, if we wipe then we wipe,if you dont like that im sorry but you can drop with no hard feelings" obviosly you would only use this in pick up groups, becuase your friends and guild groups will either A) trust thier friends and guildies to evac at the right time, or B) not care so much if a friend or guildy evacs even on the last name in a contested zone /and you know B is true <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />personaly i would find it highley amusing if someone evaced even on accident on the lastname in a contested zone : ) then again i once evaced my group in a raid when we was killing some name and wiped the raid /chuckle , course i took it off hotbar after that funny /cough i mean Dreadfull experiance : )i also have Fd'd the MT in raids a couple times on accident and wiped the raid couple times : ) ,.,. ahh the look on the MT's face must have been priceless ,,, i think i remember gettin a pleasant tell from him.anyway good luck with your crusade, i hope every ability that could possibly be used incorrectly gets removed so every encounter is either Win or Lose ,, you just dont get any simpler then that (well this is eq2 so i should rephrase that ,, the only thing easier is to never be able to lose , and since you want to remove all chance of anything else but win or lose, then the next step is to just gaurantee that any group, no matter what the make up is will always win every fight, im sure the devs are working on that for UL 65 )

Crolack

07-01-2009, 09:32 PM

Escape is my lazy brigand travel power. I fight to the death!

liveja

07-01-2009, 09:50 PM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I'm asking for is that you please consider making evac an out-of-encounter spell.</blockquote>I'd prefer you ask for players to be more careful about using it.

eqaddictedfool

07-01-2009, 09:58 PM

Ya know I think just about every scout has accidently evaced at one point or another when maybe they shouldnt have. I know i Have but as we become better players we eventually know what a win/lose situation is going to be and can better make a call of when to evac. For this same reason should probally remove everything except for auto attack to be sure noone ever loses agro again to an over zealous warlock,wizard,or assassin.

erin

07-01-2009, 11:47 PM

Seidhkona

07-02-2009, 12:08 AM

I once had a goober evac his group three times during the same raid, once during the fight with Lord Vyemm.Even so, no, I don't want changes to how evac works. When you need it, you need it.And when someone abuses it, you never invite them on another raid. It's so easy.

Noaani

07-02-2009, 12:10 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I'm asking for is that you please consider making evac an out-of-encounter spell.</blockquote>I'd prefer you ask for players to be more careful about using it.</blockquote>Pretty much.If you have a member of a PuG evac you when it was not needed, don't group with that person again. Its no different than a scout that does poor DPS, a tank that can't hold aggro, a healer that can't hael or a chanter that mezzes every group encounter.

Zarador

07-02-2009, 12:10 AM

It's really quite simple...If your an Evac Class, as I am, then you put Evac far away from any other spells. Mine is all the way at the top of my screen, with all my other ports. Odds of *accidentally* hitting it are slim to none.If your an Evac Class YOU ASK and NOT assume who will determine the Evac call, plain and simple. It may not be the main tank, why assume?If in doubt YOU ASK "Call Evac"? It's really quite simple. The person who determines the Evac Call may be to engaged in the fight to think about Evac. On the flip side I've already been cursed at for "not knowing enough to Evac" when it was determined early on that it would be called ONLY by the Group Leader. This is usually when the group is so focused on the win that they keep going at it with no chance of surviving, then it was my "job" to know better?!?! You know, all healers down or almost OOM with the mobs still pounding on us and the MT going down fast. Sure, we could have won!Going with the assumption that all groups/raids were not created equal, then it never hurts to ask when you see an Evac Class in a group "Who will call Evac". This will alert a lesser skilled group that someone should be responsible to call it.It reminds me of the old days in EQ Live where on certain encounters you always made it clear, time after time, NO PETS WITHOUT PET HOLD. Simple, redundant, yet very effective. It's nothing to do with Class Ability and EVERYTHING to do with player skill. Better to spend 10 seconds educating a group than 10 minutes cursing about it later. People have no problem asking "What are the loot rules", so how does this differ?

Jrral

07-02-2009, 12:17 AM

I'll second other people here, the OP sounds like a communication/coordination issue, not a problem with Evac. I have a simple rule for groups: the MT and the primary healer are the only two who get to call for evac. We normally run either Ventrilo or game voice, and I've got an evac call on a key on my keyboard if I need it. Everyone else can voice an opinion or point out trouble, but it's up to the tank or the healer to make the call. That way we don't have random evacs happening, and don't have people wondering whether that "Evac!" was for real or not.If you're having problems with evacs at inappropriate times, you need to set down the rules when you're forming up the group and make sure everybody knows them and's willing to abide by them. Voice makes it easier, macros make it fast if you don't have voice, there's no reason not to do it.

ArivenGemini

07-02-2009, 12:17 AM

<cite>Tisera@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ya know I think just about every scout has accidently evaced at one point or another when maybe they shouldnt have. I know i Have but as we become better players we eventually know what a win/lose situation is going to be and can better make a call of when to evac. For this same reason should probally remove everything except for auto attack to be sure noone ever loses agro again to an over zealous warlock,wizard,or assassin.</blockquote>Exactly, problems with the game should include suggestions to improve things, not nerf people.

Akaran2

07-02-2009, 12:37 AM

I figured this would get a little hostility. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Really guys - this isn't a question of making the game easier or of communication. I can communicate to someone all day long that I do or don't want them to do something that will waste both my time and theirs. But if you have kids (or worse, cats), you know that this simply doesn't always work; and you know that at times the cat will dump a cup of water on your keyboard if it really wants to. Now I can throw my cat out of my house, but it's not his fault that I put it there to begin with.By the same token, if you're defining difficulty in terms of "praying someone doesn't hit a button, accidentally or otherwise that can end an hour's worth of effort because they weren't paying attention or didn't want to listen," then difficulty is being defined poorly. Difficulty should be in terms of agro management, heal management, dps spiking. If you've already got people dying, then the difficulty may well be where it should be - but the difficulty level has nothing to do with someone hitting this ability.But with the trivial penalties associated with death, when IS a good, non-travel time for it to be cast when you can have other players using other abilities that may actually keep you from having to reclear to a spot in the zone? I've seen it stated a dozen times that if you need it you use it or that it should't be changed - but I personally haven't seen a single situation offered yet where it's preferred to take your group to the zone in mid-fight instead of just rolling the dice and seeing what fate gives you.I guess my bottom line on this goes along these lines:I don't tell the dirge to do all the wonderful things that dirges do.I don't tell the defiler to cast wards when she groups up.I don't tell the necromancer to throw in their pet.I don't tell the berzerker to taunt the mobs.I don't tell the coercer to watch my mana.I don't tell the brigand to debuff.I don't have to.I shouldn't.Yes, any one of those things can wipe a group if not done correctly. But usually it takes a special level of skilllessness to fail at these on such a regular basis that it causes a group to have to reclear, and reclear, and reclear. Why is it then that I have to tell people not to evac? When you have something that is so simple to screw up on with the potential for such an excessive time cost that can be activated on accident and is really difficult to interrupt (or to have communicated to interrupt if you're not using voice) that it can quite literally break up a group on a single use... why is this usable in combat, again, exactly? Travel is great, wonderful, delightful. I've got some LoN loot cards and some old Smoke Vials of Escape I've used for just that purpose.So, picture this example, and this is a work of fiction - but I've seen similiar happen.You've spent an hour and a half clearing a zone. Let's say Sebilis for this example, although this fits in any open dungeon where the trash sees invis. I've seen it happen in Seb, in MM, in Chardok, even in some overland zones. But for the sake of this example..You've been in a zone for an hour+. Your cleric has to leave, but needs an update that's just past the next two pulls. There's also a named mob in that region that can drop loot that you or someone in your group could really use. The next pull goes well, but the named hits your group hard. Now, you've got someone in your group that can FD, but it's an enchanter with a high tinkering skill. Your scout doesn't know this, and hits the button.What could have been a survivable situation - or I should say, a recoverable one - is over. You've lost an hour+ clearing for an update your cleric couldn't even get, you've lost out on a chance at your loot mob/aa/whatever, and it may not have even been his fault.After all. His cat may have stepped on his keyboard and evaced everyone with the press of a paw.

Noaani

07-02-2009, 12:53 AM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>After all. His cat may have stepped on his keyboard and evaced everyone with the press of a paw.</blockquote>Anyone with evac in a place that is able to be reached via the keyboard has a skill level similar to a shaman you need to tell to cast a ward.Basically, specific classes in this game have been given the ability to get the group out of a bad situation. It is up to the players of each of those (9) classes to decide if a situation is bad enough to warrent an evac. If a chanter fails to tell the group that he can FD if need be, is it the evac'ers fault for evac'ing in your hypothetical situation, when based on everything he knew, evac'ing was the best option, or was it the chanters fault for not telling the evac'er?A good player will use all the information avalible to him in order to decide if an evac is the best option. If someone has not given him all pertiant information and he is forced to make that decision anyway, you can't blame him (or the evac ability) if the decision that was made was the wrong one.

Zarador

07-02-2009, 01:11 AM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>After all. His cat may have stepped on his keyboard and evaced everyone with the press of a paw.</blockquote>Or the cat may have changed the heal target for the Cleric and the Cleric did not notice and they all wiped...Maybe the MT was a class that could FD and the Cat FD'ed him?Maybe the Cat was on the other computer and canceled the account so they could play "Hello Kitty"?Clearly the problem is not with Evac, but rather with Cats. Add yet another question to the Raid Guild application "Do you have a Cat?"

Mythanote

07-02-2009, 01:24 AM

Sounds like your *hypothetical* situation was a real one, hence all your hostility to another class's ability because you felt like you wasted your time.Lots of good post / info in here, on why it needs to stay the way it is. No reason to change this ability, cause it inconvienced you.Cheers

Golbezz

07-02-2009, 06:00 AM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I'm asking for is that you please consider making evac an out-of-encounter spell. In modern groups - with all of the ways for groups to save themselves or at the very least get resurrected back on the spot - having the ability is nothing more than a detriment. A misclick and the entire group is screwed up for the next 30, 60 minutes, or even an hour's worth of playtime. No other spell in the game is so, well, broken, in the way that it can change a dungeon or quest group. Keep the ability, that's fine. Pull yourself out of a dungeon or across a zone when needed, that's fine.But pull me when I've still got 5 emergencies up, th ehealer has a deathward/rebirth ready and the necro can hit a feign? Absolutely utterly infuriating.And then I usually get read the riot act when I ask for it to be cast only when called. Meh. I trust people to play their class - but in regards to this spell, I've simply seen it misused too many times to trust the judgement of the average person behind it.Really hope I haven't offended anyone.. I probably have, and for that, I apologize.</blockquote>It sounds to me like someone's ego is hurt due to poor tanking skills leading to an evac class making the right choice to hit the button.I never tell evac classes what to do when I tank. I've never had any problems with scouts or others hitting evac when there isn't a problem (like a LD healer) but then I don't suck at tanking or getting clean pulls. When I play my brigand I evac when there is a serious problem like a dead healer and low HP tank or way more adds than the tank can handle (based on hp spiking, healer OOP). I only had 1 tank complain about it and he didn't even see the adds that were behind him.When I do hit the evac button I first look at the fight and how it's going, the number of mobs and then the group window to see health and power of the group. If the tank had trouble with a single add earlier and he does a bad pull and 5 unlinked adds come along there is a good chance I'm going to hit evac before anyone dies, although if there was a tank like you in group I would wait just long enough for the mobs to kill you while pulling the rest of the group to the evac point.

Akaran2

07-02-2009, 08:06 AM

While I appericate the commentary on my tanking skills, I've seen it happen just as much on my necro. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

GrunEQ

07-02-2009, 08:16 AM

Unexpected things happen. It's disappointing if you are close and evac makes you have to fight your way back. But on the same token, if you wipe, you still have to fight your way back. If you don't want the evac'r to evac unless called or never...just say so at the begining. Many times an evac has saved a group...so I don't think it needs to go.

Rattfa

07-02-2009, 08:41 AM

<cite>Jaine@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>it's called communication...look into it. it works!and if the evacer still doesn't understand then kick or leave the group. simple.</blockquote>This.

Kigneer

07-02-2009, 08:56 AM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yet, if you evac, you give up on any and all chance you may have had to win a fight or recover from it on the spot. Be it guardian stoneshield, sphere; necromancer, monk, bruiser, sk, tinkerer FD; fury emergencies; whatever else. The worst part about it is that evac is generally (not in all cases) given to the people (generaly, this isn't an insult to anyone) least qualified to know when to call it.A healer knows exactly how much power a spell takes to cast, how many mana pots they have, what emergencies they have up, if they have their manastone ready, if they have hearts/shards on hand. A guardian knows what to do to taunt, a FD class should know when to hit theirs - and if they hit it early, generally that just means they're out of the fight for a few - and doesn't screw up the entire group.</blockquote> Generally I'd agree with this idea that evac is too often hit when the tank(s) feel they can indeed take down the boss/mob. As a Pally, being evaced just as I fire off Consecrate (with it's l-o-n-g recast timer) is extremely frustrating, as it can mean a wipe later, because it's not up; or with enough health/power to rez the main healer and entertain the boss/mob while they get buffed up to rejoin the fight. . What I disagree upon is that healers would "know" when to evac. Evac issues are usually settled before getting into a tough zone, with the MT giving instructions when to use it (a smart player with evac will ask the MT when to us it as well). If the MT doesn't, these issues will pop up and have some mighty PO'ed players (especially if they have to fight a-l-l the way back to a room/zone area again, as so close to the main boss). Certain zones it's just best to have the healer auto-rez himself and just revive the party. Evacs are wonderful after clearing a zone, no doubt about it. But in-combat evacs without even a warning is just plain frustrating, "I thought we'll wipe...." Grrrrrrrrrr It's the MT's job to call the shots. If backseat "my main is a raider" types who claim to know better can't/won't listen to him or supercede his decisions, they just need to evac themselves out -- they're wasting the current MT's time.

Odysia

07-02-2009, 09:31 AM

Well, I've played a ranger since launch and I have to say that Evac doesn't get a lot of use.But I do use it - mostly for speed of travel - and that not often these days what with all the bells linking up, call to hall and guild druids etc. But thats not what this thread is about anyway.It also gets used now and again in instances. Myself and a few guildies might try an instance with a sub par group - understrength, unusual class mixes etc etc, or maybe first time in something new, and its just a cash saver with a short run back to retry the named with some different tactics. So losing evan would cost me some cash now and then. Big deal.But use it deep, in a respawning zone? Highly unlikely.Sometimes I use it so rarely that when the time comes I have to think "what does it look like and where did I put that icon!"So, personally, I'd be happy to lose it......... as long as we got something more useful instead. Like a COTH equivalent , which actualy makes more sense for a scout anyway - as though we'ed actually SCOUTed a short cut for someone to take. Hell, why not give us Call TO the hero - you can get it as a quest reward, or as a tinkered item, so why not let a scout lead some 'reinforcements' covertly forwards through enemy lines to join up with a part group or raid?Or really any other ability that would help us lead a group or its members into enemy territory, or help at the begining of a fight. Scouts being IN FRONT of the main force, seeing whats there, distracting the enemy, etc etc, or firing arrows to weaken the enemy as they rush forwards... rather than sitting there twiddling our thumbs for fear of building hate too soon. Oh no, can't shoot at an enemy that's at long range - wait till its standing next to your group mates...Scout has to be the most misnamed archetype. Fighters fight, Mages cast magic, Healers Heal. How often does a scout scout?So by all means, take something away that not that much use most of the time, but we'll want something back.And whilst you're at it repeating arrow would be a good candidate for the same treatment <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Except that its no use any of the time.. but I digress!

Cucuy

07-02-2009, 09:59 AM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess my bottom line on this goes along these lines:I don't tell the dirge to do all the wonderful things that dirges do.I don't tell the defiler to cast wards when she groups up.I don't tell the necromancer to throw in their pet.I don't tell the berzerker to taunt the mobs.I don't tell the coercer to watch my mana.I don't tell the brigand to debuff.I don't have to.I shouldn't.</blockquote>Those all look like class specific jobs. Evac isn't like telling your group to kill the mob and do their job.

hypocratic_oath

07-02-2009, 10:05 AM

as a scout i can Identify to this situation pretty well, most of the time i am told to just use my best judgment, or if asked to evac i miss it because i'm focusing on hotbars and the situation and miss the party text, but it pretty much ends up one big red button of uncertienty that can go many waysI evac when things look bad and there's no deaths or one death, party thanks and we try again.I evac and the same death to lives saved ratio, party feels it could have been taken, maybe it's their pride talking or we could have? who knows?i wait for things to really go sour, i evac and everyone feels it's a save, moving onI wait for crap to fan spray time, evac and party feels i could have hit evac alot sooner, well [Removed for Content] it huh?So far all i can do is observe the party and guss on how they act, and when the tanks HP dives like a bungiee jumper is when i consider hitting evac.

Seiffil

07-02-2009, 10:08 AM

I primarily use evac to help with travel, and in groups when the tank dies I'm usually one of the next people to go, so it doesn't usually get used anyways. The reclear issue is a moot point since the vast majority of places groups go are instances, aside from annoying a healer or tank for using long recast emergency abilities, which to be honest I've never heard someone complain about that, only the obvious, oops someone misclicked evac.That being said, I've had badly timed out of combat evacs cost the ability to grab collectibles in an instance, or to finish talking to a mob for a quest because of itchy trigger fingers.There are more important things to worry about then someone being unhappy about their emergency heals or emergency ward type abilities being wasted by someone casting evac.For the example just given regarding a chanter having an FD item, if the intent is to FD, that needs to be mentioned, because that's not a normal class ability. People can't be blamed for not knowing stuff they weren't ever informed of earlier, especially if it's regarding something that they generally wouldn't need to know. In the end, regardless of what has been said communication is 100% the main issue, if you choose to not communicate, then don't get mad when someone uses their best judgement regarding all the information THEY have at hand.

liveja

07-02-2009, 10:16 AM

I have to confess one thing which the OP might assume is a concession towards making Evac an out-of-encounter only spell, which is that it's been months since I've actually used Evac to "save" a group from wiping. Particularly since TSO released, my experience has been that groups prefer to take the wipe, meaning that Evac is, lately, very rarely used for the purpose for which it was actually designed. Most of the time, it's used for travel convenience. The very few times it's used during an encounter are when I'm soloing & get into trouble I can't otherwise deal with.However, I'm not suggesting it be made out-of-encounter only, precisely because of those times when I'm in trouble with an encounter breathing down my neck. But that reduces Evac to a convenience that is used only when someone is feeling too cheap to pay a minor repair bill.IMO, Evac is yet another reason why I dislike the nerfing of death penalties, which I note the OP discussed heavily. Unfortunately, the answer ought to be to restore harsher death penalties, not to nerf Evac. That way, people actually will see a reason to evac in the middle of a bad instance pull to avoid the hassle of recovering bodies or soul shards from, say, under The Master's feet. But since the harsher death penalties will cause too many of the "omgorzrz it's toooooooo haaaaaaaaaaard" crowd to run screaming to the forums, those penalties won't be coming back, & Evac will remain what it is.

Jrral

07-02-2009, 11:04 AM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't tell the dirge to do all the wonderful things that dirges do.I don't tell the defiler to cast wards when she groups up.I don't tell the necromancer to throw in their pet.I don't tell the berzerker to taunt the mobs.I don't tell the coercer to watch my mana.I don't tell the brigand to debuff.I don't have to.I shouldn't.</blockquote>This sounds like the root of your problem. Yes, there are things you shouldn't need to tell players to do in a group. But the first rule: don't assume your comrades can read minds. Take a minute to make sure you've covered things that may affect what other group members do. Pilots use checklists for a reason. They know everything they should do, every other crewmember knows those things should be done, the checklist makes sure everybody knows they have been done and that nobody forgot anything.

Noaani

07-02-2009, 12:32 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to confess one thing which the OP might assume is a concession towards making Evac an out-of-encounter only spell, which is that it's been months since I've actually used Evac to "save" a group from wiping.</blockquote>I used it just a few days ago in Kor - Sha.We had a tank that had never done the zone before, and in the room with the second to last named, he managed to get the entire room on the first pull. 20 seconds later we were all running back.

liveja

07-02-2009, 01:25 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to confess one thing which the OP might assume is a concession towards making Evac an out-of-encounter only spell, which is that it's been months since I've actually used Evac to "save" a group from wiping.</blockquote>I used it just a few days ago in Kor - Sha.We had a tank that had never done the zone before, and in the room with the second to last named, he managed to get the entire room on the first pull. 20 seconds later we were all running back.</blockquote>If you'd taken the wipe, you would have been running back 20 seconds later, with a tiny repair bill.In any event, how long was it before this most recent time that you'd used it to evac a group from combat?

Zin`Car

07-02-2009, 01:32 PM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes. This is feedback from a longtime player from EQ1 and EQ2 both. My primary toons are a guardian, a necro, and a fury. I also have a sk and a scout, and I've been here since game launch, so I know of what I speak. I also don't want to sound cocky or arrogant or whatever else.. I'm just so tired of this ability.Please understand, first and foremost:In EQ1, we had corpse recovery. That meant being able to get out of a bad situation sometimes was the difference between a 30 minute recovery and a five hour one. In EQ2's early days, we had shard recovery. Also another good reason to have evac. Now, however, we simply have armor damage and debt.If you die, you go back to the local spawn point if you are unable to get res'd.If you die, you can go back to the spot you were fighting at with (usually) all of your armor on and a minimal penalty.Yet, if you evac, you do the same thing, only without the small penalties attached.Yet, if you evac, you give up on any and all chance you may have had to win a fight or recover from it on the spot. Be it guardian stoneshield, sphere; necromancer, monk, bruiser, sk, tinkerer FD; fury emergencies; whatever else. The worst part about it is that evac is generally (not in all cases) given to the people (generaly, this isn't an insult to anyone) least qualified to know when to call it.A healer knows exactly how much power a spell takes to cast, how many mana pots they have, what emergencies they have up, if they have their manastone ready, if they have hearts/shards on hand. A guardian knows what to do to taunt, a FD class should know when to hit theirs - and if they hit it early, generally that just means they're out of the fight for a few - and doesn't screw up the entire group.But if you hit evac? You don't know what abilities are up, what methods the tank/healer/chanter has for immediate group-saves. Quite literally, unless you have split second voice comm, you really can't. This means you're making a decision that affects the entire group/if a zone is completed in time/if the fight can be won or lost/if someone gets their update/whatever without being able to know if it really should be used or not.Evac is a wonderful spell while soloing or traveling when you need to get from one point or another. Or when the group - as an entity as a whole - decides to go back to the zone in or the local spawn point or whatever. But as a tank, it is very, very frustrating to see the group get pulled to the ZI when you're an hour into a dungeon and fifteen feet from then ext named. As a necro, it's very frustrating to hit FD and then have the scout or wizard evac out. Or as a fury when I'm mid heal (or worse, just after Rebirth kicks in).What I'm asking for is that you please consider making evac an out-of-encounter spell. In modern groups - with all of the ways for groups to save themselves or at the very least get resurrected back on the spot - having the ability is nothing more than a detriment. A misclick and the entire group is screwed up for the next 30, 60 minutes, or even an hour's worth of playtime. No other spell in the game is so, well, broken, in the way that it can change a dungeon or quest group. Keep the ability, that's fine. Pull yourself out of a dungeon or across a zone when needed, that's fine.But pull me when I've still got 5 emergencies up, th ehealer has a deathward/rebirth ready and the necro can hit a feign? Absolutely utterly infuriating.And then I usually get read the riot act when I ask for it to be cast only when called. Meh. I trust people to play their class - but in regards to this spell, I've simply seen it misused too many times to trust the judgement of the average person behind it.Really hope I haven't offended anyone.. I probably have, and for that, I apologize.</blockquote>let me start by saying this: offended, no. Disgusted at your ignorance, yes.Now, i shall elaborate as to why i am disgusted by your ignorant request. remember, ignorance is due to a lack of education or information, nothing more. it's not an insult to be called ignorant. it's insulting to be called stupid. that i did not do.What you've basically asked in your long winded statement is that based upon grouping with stupid (NOTE: useful situation for insult here) people who are using evac at the wrong time, you want each and every single class that gets this spell, to be punished... punished for the actions of stupid people. Plain. Simple. Period. end of story. game over. do not pass go. do not collect 200p. move along. these are not the gnomes you are looking for. that's like me asking for anyone with a taunt to have it removed and mad an out of combat ability. why? as an assassin, i often times DIE due to some stupid person not knowing how to use their taunt effectively enough, no matter how much deagro i use (be is spell, poison procs, food augmentation, etc). So, in lieu of this fact, i say just get rid of it entirely. You taunt users cant seem to get it right, none of you need it then. Sounds pretty darn stupid doesn't it. Correct answer is yes. My example perfectly matches yours no matter what you believe, think, hope or want. believe it or not, there are those of us evac-weilding players who do not jack up the situation as you've described. Just like there are taunt weilding players who i've grouped with that i have not died with once the entire duration of that group.Recommendation: don't group with stupid people. it's just that easy. don't come on here screaming OMG NERF THOSE MOTHER ******S!!!!!! because then you begin to sound like a stupid person. Not saying you are a stupid person by any stretch of imagination... i am saying you begin to sound like one of them./thread

Mikkachu

07-02-2009, 01:39 PM

Mm. Back when I was leveling through the content when it was new, I used evac a lot. Honestly, it seemed like we needed it once a dungeon if not more: but that's what it's like when no one's ever been in a zone or anything. I also used to use it when just duoing with a friend (if he didn't use his first), as most of the time we were just goofing off in outdoor zones, and dying was more annoying then running with our super druid speed. But these days... I can't remember the last time in a group-No, actually, in general if part of a group dies and they respawn without waiting for fight end, I'll often evac to go join them. That's a pretty rare case, though, and usually only happens with frusterated pick up groups: in general, most people actually wait to see if the combat can be won and they can get rezzed (unless you're in, say, a raid zone with no respawns or whatever and they figure they can get to you quick enough).In general, though, I hit an evac in a group when we have no tank and no healer (and no in combat rezzer), and no one is FD'ed or can FD, aand we don't have an extremely on top of things enchanter who can lock things down for a bit until I can try that brilliant swash-tanking strategy (it sometimes works!)- which is pretty specific, as generally, once the tank, healer, and occasionally an over enthusastic nuker go down, the mobs like, 'lolz swashbuckler!' and there isn't much time for an evac. Usually, though, when things start going sour, I just type in 'evac?' or if I have more time to type, 'do ya guys want an evac?'I find it works pretty well.But evac is useful all the time for soloing, and exploring, and traveling, and avoiding stupid fights you don't care about, so: please don't take my in-combat evac away. Instead, group with smart people. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Aule

07-02-2009, 02:36 PM

I think often it comes down to players who have evac don't know the full range of options that other classes may have when it comes to a situation where the tank and the healer are dead and there's 4 people left standing. They may be newer at the game, not done any research into other classes, poorly geared and not doing much dps and wanting to show they're contributing, whatever. I'm a coercer / tinkerer, I have a tremendous range of options to pull a group out of the ground, and have done so many times. Single target stun Single target reactive stun Encounter stun PBAE stun Encounter daze PBAE fear Root Single target mez Encounter mez PBAE signet rez Single target signet rez Tinker FD Out of encounter tinker rez Charm I've got tools, does that freshly level 80 assassin wearing 72 mc and random treasured gear know my capabilities? Probably not, and I'll grant that I have some responsibility for not telling that person to not evac. Even if it's a short run back, and even if we do ultimately die, there's a) a chance to pull it out and b) we may get another mob or two dead that we won't have to kill when we do run back. If we evac we guarantee that we have to run back, and guarantee that we're not going to get another mob or two dead before we wipe. Not to mention there's also the potential of simply leashing the encounter, and not having to hike back.

Golbezz

07-02-2009, 05:49 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've got tools, does that freshly level 80 assassin wearing 72 mc and random treasured gear know my capabilities? Probably not, and I'll grant that I have some responsibility for not telling that person to not evac. Even if it's a short run back, and even if we do ultimately die, there's a) a chance to pull it out and b) we may get another mob or two dead that we won't have to kill when we do run back. If we evac we guarantee that we have to run back, and guarantee that we're not going to get another mob or two dead before we wipe. Not to mention there's also the potential of simply leashing the encounter, and not having to hike back.</blockquote>Something else to consider is that new L80 assassin may not have thousands of plat sitting in the bank after getting his MC gear. It seems a bit odd mentioning it with thousands of plat in my bank but I still hate repair bills. Spending 7g+ per death isn't going to make much difference to me but a player with only a few plat in the bank is going to have a more difficult time losing any money when they may still be trying to save up for the rest of their expert level spells.I suspect many players get stuck thinking that if the tank dies the healer isn't going to be able to keep anyone else up, so they evac. Considering that many PUGs tend to break up after wipes evac isn't always a bad idea...

Grumble69

07-02-2009, 07:02 PM

The only thing I despise about evac is not being able to cancel it. I've got it moved to a hot bar that's never up so I don't accidently hit it. With regards to its use, I never ever hit it unless the group/raid leader asks for it. ...and that's pretty rare. Most times, you just wipe it and try again.

Giral

07-02-2009, 09:37 PM

so to sum it up. the OP doesnt like that someone in the group can do something he/she has no control over . therefor it has to be removed so everyone can play His/Her version of everquest. and that is you either win or die.using evac at endgame is pretty rare in combat (mostly a port for people)but it does get usedit does still fullfill its intended purpose "to get a person or thier group out of a bad situation"Comunication "please remove your evac off the hotbar for this group thanks " ... end of story.remove yet another ability and even more people will have a reason to cancel , evac might be a little annoying to you. but to other people its part of thier class, and they Love thier evac ability . losing subscription becuase an extremly small minority .00000000000001% of the population doesnt like would be a realy bad business decision for the devs.

Bridgeplay

07-02-2009, 09:47 PM

The only change I'd make in Evac is to give it to all classes.Well-run raids and groups already know when to use and when not to use evac.Evac during combat also allows people to take bigger risks in exploring new content. You still have to run/fight/etc. your way back to where you were.

Kaeth

07-05-2009, 10:26 AM

liveja

07-05-2009, 10:30 AM

<cite>Bridgeplay wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only change I'd make in Evac is to give it to all classes.</blockquote>Anyone can learn to tinker.Followers of Rallos Zek can get an Evac blessing.SKs have, or can have at least, some sort of Evac.Wardens, Wizards, & all Scouts get Evac anyway.How much more prevalent does Evac need to be?

Noaani

07-05-2009, 11:06 AM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think often it comes down to players who have evac don't know the full range of options that other classes may have when it comes to a situation where the tank and the healer are dead and there's 4 people left standing. They may be newer at the game, not done any research into other classes, poorly geared and not doing much dps and wanting to show they're contributing, whatever. I'm a coercer / tinkerer, I have a tremendous range of options to pull a group out of the ground, and have done so many times. Single target stun Single target reactive stun Encounter stun PBAE stun Encounter daze PBAE fear Root Single target mez Encounter mez PBAE signet rez Single target signet rez Tinker FD Out of encounter tinker rez Charm I've got tools, does that freshly level 80 assassin wearing 72 mc and random treasured gear know my capabilities? Probably not, and I'll grant that I have some responsibility for not telling that person to not evac. Even if it's a short run back, and even if we do ultimately die, there's a) a chance to pull it out and b) we may get another mob or two dead that we won't have to kill when we do run back. If we evac we guarantee that we have to run back, and guarantee that we're not going to get another mob or two dead before we wipe. Not to mention there's also the potential of simply leashing the encounter, and not having to hike back.</blockquote>I remember when they removed spirit shards from the game. One of the comments made was that a gamer should have the desire to survive etched into his brain, and put that as his number one priority at all times. Reguardless of any penalty that could be forced on a player upon death, without that simple and basic desire to simply not die, any penatly would be useless.Likewise, while you may be able to provide a group a chance to survive, evac is a guarentee that you will. Even if the game does not support such decisions, the choice of evac'ing in order to survive should never be looked down upon.

liveja

07-05-2009, 11:14 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>One of the comments made was that a gamer should have the desire to survive etched into his brain, and put that as his number one priority at all times. Reguardless of any penalty that could be forced on a player upon death, without that simple and basic desire to simply not die, any penatly would be useless.</blockquote>That's true, but IMO, when death penalties are meaningless, "the desire to survive" erases itself from people's brains. After all, it's just a small amount of coin to get repairs -- no hassle, no long involved "corpse run", & so on, so why worry?This, IMO, is why I'm less & less frequently called upon to evac groups in combat. People don't care as much about group wipes, so long as they're not constant. Combine this with the over-use of instances, in which mobs almost never respawn & so traveling back to the failed encounter is a ho-hum bit of run-time, & evac as group utility becomes less important.& of course, it's of no value whatsoever on raids; when raiding, Evac simply comes off my hot bar entirely. It's of greatest importance when I'm soloing, especially when I'm burning writs in JW: finish off a string of 8, fly to Stonehoof, cross into KP, evac to docks, wash-rinse-repeat.

Aule

07-06-2009, 05:40 PM

I'm not providing my group with a chance to survive. I'm providing my group a chance to defeat the encounter and not waste time. Evac'ing guarantees that we both do not defeat the encounter and waste time hiking back. My time is precious, 7g to repair is not. I don't appreciate someone wasting my time. If 7g's precious to you then open a trade window, I'll throw 10p at you and we can move on.

bluefish

07-07-2009, 12:31 AM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>you know what, I've been on both side of this arguement.I been a raiding berserker for 2 years, now. I've been a raiding assassin for about 2 months now. I have a great deal of experience on both ends of this issue. heres what I think...yeah, Evac can be incredibly frustrating sometimes - I cant tell you how many times, I been on vent yelling at some scout for evacing in the middle of a pull, because a dirge went down, or he thought something was wrong. there has been times I literally wanted to strangle the guy for it.like back when outer stronghold was new, and insanely hard, we spent 2 hours pulling Zraxth, figuring out how to do that fight and making little progress here and there, learning to control the adds, and when to use things like sanctuary, and when not to - this was well before it was common knowlege on how to clear that zone, and before the zone went through 3-4 rounds of gimping. so it was a real tough task. we were doing great. one of the last pulls, had him down to 20% and the adds just went down, so I really thought we had him that time, cause I had enough sparks to finish, and the adds just went down, meaning we had a good amount time before they came back, and hes not far from dead.then some random crap killed our templar - note, we also had a warden with us, to keep the fight going just in case - annnnd right then, someone evacd.and just as I am about to start cussing up a storm, 3 other people get on voice chat and were about to lose it. they were more mad then I was, cause we all wanted this kill bad.now, he did it, cause he said we didnt have sanctuary any more, and he thought it was gonna go bad real fast with 1 healer down. which, kinda made sense, but after 2 hours of pulling and trial and error, you figure he would have seen the healers die 100 times by then. so why evac just when we figured out the fight, and were so close to beating him?I dont know why he did it, I mean, I know why he said he did it, but still it doesnt seem like a answer that makes sense.so I know that side of the story.but as a scout, I been there, where I seen the MT down, the healer down, the mob beating on the dirge, and was like "ok, well this isnt gonna go well" and had to evac to save me and 2-3 other people. I think in my case, things have to be REALLY bad, before I evac, and thats only if I can. to be honest, I dont get in many bad groups, so the amount of times I had to evac to save a few people on repairs is few and far between.but I think the issue comes down to the person playing the scout.some people jump the gun, others like me probably wait alittle too long before trying to evac. if your scout knows what they are doing, evac should never be a issue.its not unreasonable to evac when your MT and healer is down is it?evac has saved me both as a tank and a assassin, but its also greatly [Removed for Content] me off by scouts with poor judgement. but changing evac, isnt gonna make many people happy, when the problem isnt the skill, but the person using it.</blockquote>yelling at people in a game?now that cracks me up[Removed for Content]edit: on second thought .. it's actually pretty pathetic and sad

liveja

07-07-2009, 10:52 AM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not providing my group with a chance to survive. I'm providing my group a chance to defeat the encounter and not waste time. Evac'ing guarantees that we both do not defeat the encounter and waste time hiking back. My time is precious, 7g to repair is not. I don't appreciate someone wasting my time. If 7g's precious to you then open a trade window, I'll throw 10p at you and we can move on.</blockquote>What this guy said.It's true, because the penalties for dying are utterly meaningless, so nobody cares about a paltry 7g. Maybe if people actually had to, say, recover their corpse with all their gear on it, THEN they might actually care about having me Evac them.But that's never going to happen, because all of the "omgzorz it's toooooooo haaaaaaaaard" crowd would whine their eyes out. It's a very sad thing to realize that less than 2 weeks after re-activating my account, I'm already asking myself why I didn't go back to EQ1, instead.

Noaani

07-07-2009, 11:06 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not providing my group with a chance to survive. I'm providing my group a chance to defeat the encounter and not waste time. Evac'ing guarantees that we both do not defeat the encounter and waste time hiking back. My time is precious, 7g to repair is not. I don't appreciate someone wasting my time. If 7g's precious to you then open a trade window, I'll throw 10p at you and we can move on.</blockquote>What this guy said.It's true, because the penalties for dying are utterly meaningless, so nobody cares about a paltry 7g. Maybe if people actually had to, say, recover their corpse with all their gear on it, THEN they might actually care about having me Evac them.But that's never going to happen, because all of the "omgzorz it's toooooooo haaaaaaaaard" crowd would whine their eyes out. It's a very sad thing to realize that less than 2 weeks after re-activating my account, I'm already asking myself why I didn't go back to EQ1, instead.</blockquote>While I agree with all of this, I still play with the idea that a death is failure. I'd rather evac than fail.if I have a chanter in my group, then obviously that will have an impact on my use of evac, but that doesn't change the fact that I will evac before wiping if a wipe is guarenteed.The only exceptions to this are to do with revive points. I won't evac at all in the palace area of Chardok, as an example. I see this as a differnt threshold as to when evac becomes a tool that is not worth using. Its just a different point at which the mechanics of the game make it not worth using in my view.

liveja

07-07-2009, 11:16 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still play with the idea that a death is failure. I'd rather evac than fail.</blockquote>I agree completely, & that is what I do when I'm soloing or with people I know well. Even in the latter case, tho, my experience has been that people would rather just take the wipe, because death "penalties" in EQ2 are virtually non-existent.If I'm in a PUG, however, it's not just about me, & especially in an instance, nobody ever wants me to evac -- unless it's at the very end of the instance & for some odd reason we all need to go back to the entrance together. Otherwise, people just Call out, even if we're going to stay together for another instance.

Rocc

07-07-2009, 11:28 AM

When I looked at the title of your thread I was expecting another gripe. But you bring up some very good points. I concur! I would hate to see scouts and especially bards lose their evac but without them knowing how a tanks and other members save death spells work, this can be a really costly mistake. Some evac's even take you out of the zone (although rare).I think education is key here.Maybe in everquest 3 they can install some group dynamic that allows a group to use when they all know all hope is gone. Until then, I dont see this getting changed in EQ2. Good discussion though.Scouts need to learn zerkers and guards have death prevention spells! And furies/wardens have rebirth even if you do die.

Zarador

07-07-2009, 11:39 AM

Bottom line on this is really quite simple.Evac is an ability of some classes. Like almost any ability given to any Class in the game it requires some skill on the players part as well as knowledge on the group/raids part. The more you know about your abilities as well as the abilities of other classes, the more effective you/your group/raid will perform.I was in a group where the SK has cast Feign Dead accidentally on a group member. Two things happened as a result.<ol><li>The healer (as well as another group member) became keenly aware that a SK can cast Feign Dead on another player. (refer to knowledge of the abilities of other classes).</li><li>The SK learned that having that key so close to the combat hotkeys was not a great idea. (refer to knowledge of your own abilities and careful use of them).</li></ol>Do we remove that ability from the game? Of course not!Could it wipe a group easily? Of course it can!If your going to "step out in the world" then it's expected that you learn how to "play well with others". If you expect to be an asset to the group/raid, then you better well know the capabilities of other classes (especially when they may not know them). If I had a gold for every time I told a healer to cast a rez item for the group to rez them in case of a bad situation I would be rich. It may not be my job to tell them how to play their class, but it sure makes my job easier in the end."Useless" abilities often are useful abilities that we have yet to find a creative benefit for. I recall well the "Cleric Pet Hammer" in Everquest Live that so many proclaimed to be useless fluff. I would use it to pull since the mob would kill the hammer and come after me at which time someone would grab the mob and the hate would immediately be transferred since so little damage was done. Due to the game mechanics of that time, the hammer drew far less social aggro than almost any other form of weapon/spell.

Zin`Car

07-07-2009, 12:58 PM

<cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only thing I despise about evac is not being able to cancel it. I've got it moved to a hot bar that's never up so I don't accidently hit it. With regards to its use, I never ever hit it unless the group/raid leader asks for it. ...and that's pretty rare. Most times, you just wipe it and try again.</blockquote>yay more ignorance!!! No wonder Sony is dumbing down EQ2 to the level of 4 year old mentality... it's tuning the game to the mediocrity of the less than average player rather than expect them to rise to new challenges.there are no less than TWO ways to cancel evac: the Escape key which was already mentioned but you can also crouch as well as sit to cancel the cast. WOW!! THAT'S AMAZING!!! THREE WAYS!!!! thank you thank you. no applause just throw plats thank you.SOE needs to incorporate a test in the next expansion which grills all customers about their basic knowledge of the game before they are allowed to continue with their subscription. Failure automatically cancels their account and THEN immediately sends them to Blizzard's site to download WoW. Yes, admittedly, we'd lose a lot of people but i think in the end, it's well worth the effort that way nonsense like this post i've quoted as well as this thread (and ones like it that infect these forums) that was started to begin with... would not ever exist.

Noaani

07-07-2009, 01:09 PM

<cite>Luinne@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>there are no less than TWO ways to cancel evac: the Escape key which was already mentioned but you can also crouch as well as sit to cancel the cast. WOW!! THAT'S AMAZING!!! THREE WAYS!!!!</blockquote>/cancel_spellcast works as well. Put it on a macro next to evac, and if you ever hit it by accident you can just cancel it straight away.

Seolta

07-07-2009, 07:41 PM

It's awesome that I can actually still be suprised by the level of inanity in these forums...

Vincenzo

07-07-2009, 07:55 PM

In reply to the OP:Your point about the do's and don'ts about Evac are well made. I can't tell you the number of times I was frustrated by someone who evacced at the first sign of trouble in both EQ2 and EQ1.At the same time, a good evaccer who understands when things are beyond recovery, they were also priceless in EQ1, and I would say, somewhat useful in EQ2.This isn't just about voice comms, it's about decision making. In my groups in EQ1 we would have a designated Evac caller (usually the healer or the mezzer) who is able to make that decision for the whole group, and would have to live with making that decision.As such, the same is possible in EQ2, with or without voice comms (text macros FTW!).I think the fact that knowing when to evac is tricky only adds to the game. Removing it would just (further) dumb down the classes who have it.

Neskonlith

07-07-2009, 08:55 PM

<cite>Seqqura@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>In reply to the OP:Your point about the do's and don'ts about Evac are well made. I can't tell you the number of times I was frustrated by someone who evacced at the first sign of trouble in both EQ2 and EQ1.At the same time, a good evaccer who understands when things are beyond recovery, they were also priceless in EQ1, and I would say, somewhat useful in EQ2.This isn't just about voice comms, it's about decision making. In my groups in EQ1 we would have a designated Evac caller (usually the healer or the mezzer) who is able to make that decision for the whole group, and would have to live with making that decision.As such, the same is possible in EQ2, with or without voice comms (text macros FTW!).I think the fact that knowing when to evac is tricky only adds to the game. Removing it would just (further) dumb down the classes who have it.</blockquote>Agreed! Evac is like many other character abilities in-game that requires judgement - bad calls punish, and good calls reward. Forcing the removal of an ability for players to make decisions with consequences in-game will only make EQ2 bland.OP, it's a very simple choice: pick your companions wisely, and you will have no complaints...

TaleraRis

07-09-2009, 03:38 AM

You said you were a longtime player of EQ1. What did you do about druids and Succor there?I think this is entirely a communication issue. My main in EQ1 was an enchanter. I usually gave the evac call. I also had a secondary character who was a druid. In both roles, I communicated with my group about capabilities and strategies.I'm a ranger here, so of course I have evac. I've never used it in a group unless it was a situation we had all agreed was evac-worthy.I think this fits in with understanding your role in a group and group mechanics. It is not something where those who have the skill and are responsible in its use get punished because of a flaw in group communication.

joevollono

07-09-2009, 04:17 AM

<cite>Akaran2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not at all disagreeing with the idea of communication, or the idea of leaving the group if it's a problem. But this is one thing where you don't really know if there's going to /be a problem until everyone's been rgeatly inconvienced.</blockquote>Want to nerf a classes ability because sometimes you are 'inconvienced'? Man just shows people will complain about anything. Harden up.

Tryon

07-09-2009, 05:01 PM

I play a warden who keeps one AA spec with Rebirth I often use in groups. Rebirth 9 times out of 10 lets the group give it our all on an encounter, but if we wipe I can usually pop back up and back away from aggro, assuming we pulled to a safe spot, to rez the group and recover. I'd much rather do that than evac, especially in zones that repopulate like Chardok.I have a different issue with Premature Evactuation though. Idiots who evac the group before loot is settled!!! I've been screwed by scouts a few times that hit evac right after the final encounter is over and they themselves have selected their loot option. I like to carefully consider a piece of loot if I think I might be "needing" on it. But as soon as evac is cast, no more loot window, and loot is decided upon the remainder of the folks who made a selection before evacing.Please SoE, make the loot window persist through evac!

liveja

07-09-2009, 09:33 PM

<cite>Tryon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been screwed by scouts a few times that hit evac right after the final encounter is over and they themselves have selected their loot option.</blockquote>This is why I always, before evaccing, ask first if everyone is ready, then I wait a minute & make sure everyone is, & then I say something like "Evaccing NOW", wait about 10 seconds, & then hit it.

Cronqar

07-10-2009, 02:41 PM

if you're really look at it than it is not only evac which I really only use to shorten traveltime for myself and the group, but any portspell or even the porthammer. We usually move very quickly and it happens all the time that somebody still has the porthammer equipped and finds himself at the docks in Waste. And I think its funny, at least once, if you accidentally port your whole group in the furthest remote corner of the eq2 world during a raid. If you do that a second time you might not be raiding any longer^^.

Linkdead_Phoen

07-10-2009, 08:11 PM

I accidently casted Evac one time in Runnyeye when I wasn't supposed to, and was yelled at by the group for doing so. Since then, I have never used the spell in a group situation again and will not use it unless asked.That said, I think some of you here take the game far to seriously. So a guy hits evac and sets the group back an hour? Well, he wasn't doing it on purpose and probably simply did not understand how to efficiently use that skill. That's hardly a reason to never group with this person again. I would hope that there are far more important things going on in your life than a dungeon crawl in Everquest II. Half the reason people may not understand how to play their class could be attributed to the speed of leveling, but the other half is because people rarely group together outside of their own guild if even then. In EQ, where people always grouped with random people, you knew how to play your class in a group situation because that is all you ever did. You can't ask level 70 Joe Smith to know exactly when and when not to use evac in a group when he hasn't ever even been in a group before.In such a situation, the responsibility for the incident cannot fall entirely on the scout as, for one, it would not always be the scout's falt that an evac was thought to have been needed in the first place, and the group leader failed to determine an individual in the group who would be responsible for calling an evac. The entire group is, in some small part, responsible for incident.