The Shaft

[Kulaf]

<p>INC!</p>

[Wilderbeast25]

<p>Constructive post to be sure... Here are some notes from FF: - Bards buffs will be raidwide. including UT. Which can be cast on 4 targets (only one per group) in the raid at one time. Now what does this mean? If you don't raid? ZERO It will mean nothing to you. What does it mean to raiding guilds that are having a hard time finding more than 1 troub? Your one troub just became a god to you. What does it mean it you are hardcore and have 2 or 3 troubs in your raids now? Well it means that you will more thank likely only run 2 troubs and never a 3rd so some troubs will more than likely loose spots on those raids. Now if you are asking why 2 troubs then think about this. Troubs have more buffs than con slots. Also having 2 troubs means 8 people get UT which would be great dps. Also guilds will still want the multiple PoTM. Will the number of troubs decrease? Yes it is almost a certainty. It is one of the least played class already and this will not help it. The people that loose spots will move to a guild that doesn't have a troub or will re-roll to a new class that is now needed. Are we still a useful class? YES! We still do all that we did before. There just won't be a need for as many of us. Does SOE care about that? No - They don't I'm afraid. They want everything "balanced". I say it like that because everyone has a different meaning and I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to explain it. This will mean that some classes will get new things and some of those things will be taken from other classes no matter how long they have had that ability.</p><p>Now the crits being combined into one?  Well time is going to tell on that.  If SOE doesn't screw it up we may see no difference or an increase.  Who knows...  More than likey though it will be screwed up first and then fixed 3 or 4 months into the next xpac.  As a hybrid class we do typically get hosed first and then at some point fixed.  As I know more I'll post more.</p>

[Inggy]

<p>I attended that briefing and went mmmm.  The premise was to par down the 8 support slots to 4.  Nice idea but idk about you but what raid will not want potm / CoB / PoM up every 30 seconds or so.  Running 1 of each support class will not allow for this, resulting in lower raid DPS.  Raids are all about maximizing DPS by cross buffing and using the correct classes.  Anything that lowers DPS will be removed unless essential for that particular encounter ie more healers.</p><p>So unless they find a method to allow 1 Troub to have PotM up every 30 seconds you'll still run two, the same goes for the Chanters/Dirge.</p><p>The move begs a bit more thought than "oooo this is a neat idea...lets go with that...it will create more class openings in raids....and solve our nagging "My class is not needed on raids" issue. </p><p>Instead it will more likely not change a thing due to temp / DPS buffs.  Ok you might run with 3 Illys vs 2/2 Illy/Coer, the 4 bards will still be standard unless someone can figure out how to do it better with more cross buffing.</p><p>What it does address is the bard/chanter issue with guilds that cannot find the typical 8 required.  It allows you to have an effective raid setup without all those additional support toons.  It does not eliminate the need for them if you are after the optimal raid setup.</p><p>The other non-essential raid classes need to have their roles redifined and be given some type ability / raid buffs that will be more advantagious.  Not likely but we will have to wait and see.</p><p>Either way the 2 Troubs/Dirges will still be needed for x4 raids and I don't see that going away with this new vision for EQ2.</p>

[Asif]

<p>Hmm well put guys . <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>What is going to happen to our raid wide POTM when our mtyh is not the main raid weapon anymore i am wondering ?</p><p>I guess time will tell  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Wilderbeast25]

<p>The PoTM temp buff is going to be raid wide if I understand what I have seen correctly so the Myth shouldn't matter anymore. Also with T9 come T9 spells. The Myth is tied to T8 so IF there is a new PoTM then it would be useless anyway unless you continued to use the T8 version of the spell.</p>

[Kulaf]

<p>Ok maybe it's my 10 or so years dealing with SOE changes as a Bard......but you all are being overly optimistic about this.  Let me give a short list of things that could happpen:</p><p>1) PotM gets an immunity timer.......to make sure that no more than 1 Troub can cast it for it's normal downtime.</p><p>2) UT gets some kind of check so that no more than 1 person per group can get it cast on them.  Perhaps by giving all of the other members of the group a UT immunity buff.</p><p>3) Raidwide buffs makes dragging along a botted Troub an order of magnitude eaiser.</p><p>There are three easy to implement things that SOE could do to pretty much guarantee 1 Troub per raid.....and dumming down our class to the point that we are reduced to buff bots.  And if you don't think it can happen.....you haven't been a Bard for very long.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Wilderbeast25]

It could happen and they may do it. If they do I'll re-roll. I do doubt that they will do that though. They have already been evil enough and they actually don't want people to quit. Who knows but I'll try to keep an open mind. For Now...

[Kulaf]

<p>Just got confirmation from someone who attended the panel where this was discussed and yes.....there will only be one person per group that can receive UT.</p><p>1 down.....2 to go.</p>

[Wilderbeast25]

<p>What was stated at Fan Fair was that we could only give UT to one person in a group. That means we can give UT to up to 4 people - one per group. </p><p>One person in a group having UT doesn't make everyone else immune to UT from another troub. So if there is another troub - THAT troub can give UT to another person in those groups which would be now 8 people have UT. The Illy buff is working the same way as ours.</p><p>Look I'm just as worried about this as other raiders - I fall into the hardcore group that I talked about in my first post of this thread and I have seriously considered looking at other opportunities, BUT I'm not going to freak out until there is something to actually freak out about.  As it stands right now 2 troubs are still useful in a raid. 3? No.</p>

[Kulaf]

<p>As it stands?  Why are two useful other than for PotM?  If most of our buffs go raidwide that is 6 raidwide buffs and UT to each group from 1 Troub.  And yes it is only going to be 1 person per group......not one person per group per Troub.  We are talking really diminishing returns and if PotM receives an immunity timer like KC has, forget needing Troub #2.</p><p>And honestly.....if now isn't the time to panic.....when is?  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Wilderbeast25]

"And yes it is only going to be 1 person per group......not one person per group per Troub. " And where do you get this information? No one else has said this that I can find but you...

[resus]

<p>Its a good thing i think, we will be useful for other class than a mage group. Like sta str buff, haste, aria of magic, def buff. I think T9 raid will be more tricky to do</p>

[Kulaf]

<p><cite>Wilderbeast25 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>"And yes it is only going to be 1 person per group......not one person per group per Troub. " And where do you get this information? No one else has said this that I can find but you...</blockquote><p><a href="http://fanfaire08.feldoncentral.com/2009/06/28/fan-faire-2009-eq2-news-rollup/">http://fanfaire08.feldoncentral.com...q2-news-rollup/</a></p><p>"Some <strong>Enchanter </strong>and <strong>Bard </strong>buffs will become raidwide or applicable to one person in each of the 4 groups. The example given was an illusionist giving Time Compression to one member of all 4 groups. Other buffs could go raidwide. This will be done in such way so that having 4 illusionists will not be a significant advantage over having 1 or 2."</p><p>If you could put UT and TC on 4 people per Illy/Troub......why would anyone run with less?  That would be counterintuitive to the goal of reducing the number of spots being taken up by the two classes.</p>

[Wilderbeast25]

<p>Sigh... That says nothing about other people in the group being immune. I haven't seen/heard anyone take that the same way that you did.</p>

[Kulaf]

<p>Ok......examing this statement:</p><p>"This will be done in such way so that having 4 illusionists will not be a significant advantage over having 1 or 2."</p><p>Please explain to me how improving UT/TC to buff 3 more people than it currently can is not a significant advantage?</p><p>Let's look at it this way.  Can we agree that their stated goal is to reduce the "need" for having multiple Bards on raids?  And if we can agree to that then it seems rather obvious that if they are going to "improve" UT to be able to buff 3 more people than it currently can that they are going to put in check in place to make sure that multiple Troubs cannot do it.</p><p>Not sure why we are debating the seemingly obvious.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

<p><cite>Wilderbeast25 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sigh... That says nothing about other people in the group being immune. I haven't seen/heard anyone take that the same way that you did.</p></blockquote><p>It's a UYB thing...</p><p>Honestly ... the change is made because there's too many buffing classes in the raid.  If you could buff more than one person with said buff per group by just taking more buffing classes, that defeats the very idea behind the change.</p>

[Wilderbeast25]

<p><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok......examing this statement:</p><p>"This will be done in such way so that having 4 illusionists will not be a significant advantage over having 1 or 2."</p><p>Please explain to me how improving UT/TC to buff 3 more people than it currently can is not a significant advantage?</p><p>Let's look at it this way.  Can we agree that their stated goal is to reduce the "need" for having multiple Bards on raids?  And if we can agree to that then it seems rather obvious that if they are going to "improve" UT to be able to buff 3 more people than it currently can that they are going to put in check in place to make sure that multiple Troubs cannot do it.</p><p>Not sure why we are debating the seemingly obvious.</p></blockquote><p>Ok - To start out I do agree that the purpose is to reduce number of bards/illies on raids which is why I pointed out in my first post that if you are having trouble finding another troub for your guild but already have one then it just became a god to you.</p><p>Second and one thing that people are missing is that there was also statements made these changes are to allow more flexibility in who you bring to a raid and to break away from a template setup.  For example Summoners are getting some of the Brigs ability to debuff, but according to the devs they still will not be REQUIRED to be on a raid - meaning that the encounters can be done without them.</p><p>Now getting back to the UT thing.  The statement says: "This will be done in such way so that having 4 illusionists will not be a significant advantage over having 1 or 2."  The "1 or 2" is the key part in this.  You would more than likely be just fine with only having 1, but a lot of guilds look at min/max - specifically the top end guilds.  Having 2 gives 4 more people UT, it gets them buffs that typically aren't used because of lack of con slots, would allow you to have more PoTM, and well played troubs can still dish out good dps.  Also like I said before you will never need 3 anymore.  The only reason I can think to have a 3rd would simply to fill a raid spot when you are short and their sole purpose would be to DPS, maybe toss out some Jesters, and maybe just maybe get buffs up real quick while the other troubs are waiting for a rez (assuming they died).</p><p>I may be giving SOE more credit in thinking about this than they deserve.  I would hope that they would realize that locking UT down like you have said would be a death sentence for most of the people playing this class at a raid level, so I'm hoping that they do stick with the idea of flexibility and not draconian cookie cutter play styles.</p><p><cite>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wilderbeast25 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sigh... That says nothing about other people in the group being immune. I haven't seen/heard anyone take that the same way that you did.</p></blockquote><p>It's a UYB thing...</p><p>Honestly ... the change is made because there's too many buffing classes in the raid.  If you could buff more than one person with said buff per group by just taking more buffing classes, that defeats the very idea behind the change.</p></blockquote><p>If you can point me to any place where this has been stated by a dev I will be more than happy to change my statement on this.  If this does end up being true then the majority of troubs in raiding guilds are pretty much hosed.  They will become backups that don't raid much, will need to reroll to a "needed" class that their guild wants, or maybe just quit after getting the nerf bat to many times.</p><p>Who knows...  I'm trying to find a bright side here and for raiding troubs there isn't one.</p>

[Kulaf]

<p><cite>Wilderbeast25 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now getting back to the UT thing.  The statement says: "This will be done in such way so that having 4 illusionists will not be a significant advantage over having 1 or 2."  The "1 or 2" is the key part in this.  You would more than likely be just fine with only having 1, but a lot of guilds look at min/max - specifically the top end guilds.  Having 2 gives 4 more people UT, it gets them buffs that typically aren't used because of lack of con slots, would allow you to have more PoTM, and well played troubs can still dish out good dps.  Also like I said before you will never need 3 anymore.  The only reason I can think to have a 3rd would simply to fill a raid spot when you are short and their sole purpose would be to DPS, maybe toss out some Jesters, and maybe just maybe get buffs up real quick while the other troubs are waiting for a rez (assuming they died).</p><p>I may be giving SOE more credit in thinking about this than they deserve.  I would hope that they would realize that locking UT down like you have said would be a death sentence for most of the people playing this class at a raid level, so I'm hoping that they do stick with the idea of flexibility and not draconian cookie cutter play styles. </p></blockquote><p>But if it works the way you say why not bring 3 Troubs and 3 Illys and have Time Compression or Upbeat Tempo on every single raid member?  That's the way min/maxers think.  Not to mention that all of the Troubs would be able to UT each other.  You would literally have non stop PotM.</p><p>Not locking down UT like I suggest would just lead to more desire for Illys and Troubs.....no less.  It would defeat the entire purpose of the change.  I frankly just don't want the change and what I want SOE to realize is they change is not even necessary and can be done organicly rather than through this heavy handed maner.  All they need to do is get rid of most of the power drains from raids and the "need" to have power batteries in every group goes down.  When that goes down raid leaders will stop stressing Enchanters and Bards as much and things will go back to the way they were before TSO.</p>

[Wilderbeast25]

<p>Well at some point you start looking at how much dps do you get by more UT vs how much you would get by a getting another pure DPS class. Also after 2 there aren't anymore non-temp buffs another troub could bring to the table. We have a lot of buffs but not that many. I'm not saying that you are wrong per se either. My point is that it hasn't been stated by the devs that way. (yet?) So I guess until a dev shows up here and says one way or another it will be a question. As for the change itself? I think it ranks in the top 10 as the dumbest least thought out changes to EQ2. They try to sell it to troubs as oh look your buffs are better because they are raid wide, but everyone that has actually played at a raiding level knows the hosing they are in for. This does nothing to help troubs as I already stated. I think the only group that it helps is casual raiding guilds that only have 1 troub. I completely agree they should have found another way of handling all of this - bards, illys, conj, brigs, etc.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

<p><cite>Wilderbeast25 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well at some point you start looking at how much dps do you get by more UT vs how much you would get by a getting another pure DPS class. Also after 2 there aren't anymore non-temp buffs another troub could bring to the table. We have a lot of buffs but not that many. I'm not saying that you are wrong per se either. My point is that it hasn't been stated by the devs that way. (yet?) So I guess until a dev shows up here and says one way or another it will be a question. As for the change itself? I think it ranks in the top 10 as the dumbest least thought out changes to EQ2. They try to sell it to troubs as oh look your buffs are better because they are raid wide, but everyone that has actually played at a raiding level knows the hosing they are in for. This does nothing to help troubs as I already stated. I think the only group that it helps is casual raiding guilds that only have 1 troub. I completely agree they should have found another way of handling all of this - bards, illys, conj, brigs, etc.</p></blockquote><p>In no way is this meant to help Troubs, or heighten their desirability, and I don't see where this is sold like you state.</p><p>Quite the contrary actually, this is done to MAKE SPACE for classes that are very uncommon or completely unused in a raid setup, unless you settle for "less than ideal".</p><p>To achieve that, you need to put away the overabundance of buffing classes, namely chanters and bards. This is why it is a good thing. I'll gladly roll with some other class if two Troubs is "too much". This will allow for more flexible raid setups, which could (hopefully) result in a better encounter variety and creativity.</p>

[soulljah]

<p>Only thing these changes will do is maybe guilds wont carry that extra dirge with them. So instead of 5 bards raids might only have 4. So yah only thing im worried about is losing my dirge in grp.</p><p>If SOE honestly thinks this will change raid setups to have only 1 troub, 1 dirge, 1 chanter, and one coercer they really are clueless</p>

[Inggy]

<p><cite>soulljah wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><snip></p><p>If SOE honestly thinks this will change raid setups to have only 1 troub, 1 dirge, 1 chanter, and one coercer they really are clueless</p></blockquote><p>But that's the intention, to have only 1 of each support/buff class and fill in the other 4 slots with a class that usually "isn't" on a raid buy giving those classes some buff/ability that will useful to the raid.</p><p>I'm still sitting on the fence on this change, but leaning more towards finding a new game for my intertainment.</p>

[Asif]

<p><cite>Onoes@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>soulljah wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If SOE honestly thinks this will change raid setups to have only 1 troub, 1 dirge, 1 chanter, and one coercer they really are clueless</p></blockquote><p>But that's the intention, to have only 1 of each support/buff class and fill in the other 4 slots with a class that usually "isn't" on a raid buy giving those classes some buff/ability that will useful to the raid.</p><p>I'm still sitting on the fence on this change, but leaning more towards finding a new game for my intertainment.</p></blockquote><p>That may be what they are trying to do but guilds will just take more T1 Dps for the extra spots.</p><p>I believe you will still see 4 bards per raid but thats it no need for any more.</p><p>But your right will just have to wait and see how this plays out.</p><p>If you make it so its only 2 bards per raid they WILL lose accounts over this that i am sure of.</p>

[soulljah]

<p>Thing is a well played illusionist is already a T1 dps class. So why would anyone take another assasin or another wizard when you can just use an illy and have all their buffs as well as high dps? That is the real problem.</p><p>My biggest fear is they will nerf bard and chanter dps so bad that it won't be viable to carry more than each class in a raid.</p><p>But any guild that is going to rely on only having one of each support class showing up for every single raid and never missing one is taking a huge risk. This is the main reason why you won't see guilds only carrying 1 troub, 1 dirge, 1 chanter, 1 coercer.</p>

[Wilderbeast25]

I have a feeling they will "fix" illusionist with the crit coefficient and they will screw up bards with it too. On your second point though even if SOE made it where it really did make sense to ONLY bring 1 troub, dirge, illy, coercer on a raid and the guild kept 2 so they could have back up I sure wouldn't want to be backup. I sure didn't join a raid guild and play a troub for 2+ years (5-6 nights a week) to sit.

[Ristan]

<p>I run the raids for my guild, currently we use 2 Illys, 2 coercers, 3 dirges, and 1 troubador.</p><p>Looking at the changes, and with that set up I can get battlecry on 12 people, UT on 4 people, and Time compression on 8 people.</p><p>Thats 24 folks with different single target buffs.  TC the healers and slower casters, UT the enchanters in the other group, BC all the melee dps/tanks.</p><p>I don't see this as being the change they wanted.  And I don't see people replacing enchanters for T1 dps, because, for the most part enchanters ARE t1 dps atm.</p><p>Bards, I can see maybe replacing them, but if you can run a varity of buffs, PtoM, COB, and single targets throughout the raid, and have high parsing bards then I don't see them being replaced for a supposed t1 dps either.</p><p>The only way I can see a min/max raid dumping utility classes, is if the utility classes dps got nerfed badly which honestly I could see soe doing <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>There is no easy way around this.</p><p><img src="http://kyrainetheranger.tripod.com/starsigone.gif" width="432" height="130" /></p>

[Troubone]

<p>LOL so far looking like alot of changes.  I actually see if they make it so there is only 1 troub/dirge/coercer/illy in a raid they will stick us in group 4 and tell us not to die and probably box us.  Currently standing the Utility classes in my raids are still high parsers so no point in gearing up a new DPS class.  In fact probably knock the dirge/coercer out of MT group for a full time warden. some deal with OT group. Might not Need em per say, but they can DPS and give the Crit Mit Buff and spot heal if needed.  (Conj in MT group for the Stone Skin!!!)There is alot of changes and with the Crit consolidation healers should be able to Heal and DPS better then now.  Hell Mages who already are running close to 100% spell crit will have a mean auto attack to boot.  Dirges got Rez but so do necros so no point in 2 dirges when u can have necro rezzes.  What i want to know is If all our Buffs go raid wide, will they no longer stack. Cause a dirge/troub in the same group the Casting speed buff and DA buffs stack.  Or will Dirges spec out of DKTM for a raid and Troubs spec out of the DA buff?  if they stay just group wide then people will still want 4 bards to keep those buffs, making the whole thing pointless.  and if they do stack the whole raid gets 16 cast speed and 25 DA. proc on spells and proc on melee, 10% to CA and 10% spells.  depending on how this is addressed and played out This could be really good for us.... Or Extremely Bad.  and its always the ladder.Whose gonna get Tc/UT now.  cause MT defiler is gonna want CH and UT.  I mean this sounds like the Raid zones are gonna have to be insane if we got this many buffs rolled out in raid or this next exp is gonna be /easymode  or alot of stuff requiring Skill, and when i say that i mean like watching ur det window.  every mob gonna be like VS/Trak/Switch and class adds just to be a challenge?</p><p>  </p>

[Inggy]

<p><cite>Troubone@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL so far looking like alot of changes.  I actually see if they make it so there is only 1 troub/dirge/coercer/illy in a raid  <snip></p><p>depending on how this is addressed and played out This could be really good for us.... Or Extremely Bad.  and its always the ladder.Whose gonna get Tc/UT now.  cause MT defiler is gonna want CH and UT.  I mean this sounds like the Raid zones are gonna have to be insane if we got this many buffs rolled out in raid or this <span style="text-decoration: underline;">next exp is gonna be /easymode  or alot of stuff requiring Skill</span>, and when i say that i mean like watching ur det window.  every mob gonna be like VS/Trak/Switch and class adds just to be a challenge?</p><p>  </p></blockquote><p>From what I vaguely remember, the plan is to reduce Raid Wide DPS.  Most likely though forced gear "upgrades".  There are already posts about the gear degradation from 80-90 grind.  Meaning you will have to upgrade to the new stuff just to run instances/raids.  Not something most long time raiders are accustomed to, they are used to using previous raid gear to start the new raid zones, not farm instances for gear to just start the raid zones.</p><p>The problem is, they never showed us anything that was already developed.  All they did was say "this is our plan / vision for SF".  Without any facts, it allows people read into their statements.</p><p>Until this is out on test or beta we'll all be guessing to some extent.  Either way I'm looking for a new game for a number of reasons, these proposed changes just added to them.</p><p>O</p>

[Ballads]

<p>As much as people think we are getting the shaft these changes had to happen and in the end they are gonna make for a better game. How long have they tried to balance classes in the raid enviorment and have failed. I like this route. You free up raid slots by giving 1 troub the power todo the job of 2. "Until canceled" buffs gotta get the 1 per group limitation or they become way OP and you still end up HAVING to bring 2 of each support to be able to run anything close to min/max. Now short term buffs like POTM, COB, JC and such can be left as is, an extra potm or cob is ok and it means your not waisting a slot on a second troub or dirge but you dont REQUIRE one to min/max.</p><p>My hope is they can allow 4 support classes do the job of 8 and yet  having 2 of one class not a total waste ( ie x 2 potm,cob, other temps, and the 5 extra conslot buffs 1 can't run.) Want your spot in the raid? Earn it instead of having it given to you. I think that post changes a guild can still run 8 support classes if they choose and still be very sucessful. Continue to be the best troub you can be ( Good rotations of JC, Potm,and Debuffs, good use of counter song and DPS your butt off) and your raid slot if safe. Think your gonna earn your spot by the 10-15 spells you cast pre-pull and welcome to the bench.</p><p>We  are still given an automatic raid slot; Just not two.</p>