Next Expansion: Level 90 tradeskill [Archive]

Meirril

06-27-2009, 10:32 AM

<cite>FarinIX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now that they've announced Lvl 90, how are the "epic" quests going to be handled? Will they become available at lvl 90 instead of 80? Will there be a new end-game tradeskill questline that gives new titles and gear?</blockquote>Just a guess mind you, but1) Don't expect the current epic quests (all 25 of them) to change just because there are 10 more levels added. Though, I suspect the recipes might scale with level. Its hard to say!2) There will likely be more tradeskill quests but I'm not sure if we'll get a new "tradeskill epic" or even a 90 tradeskill quest that results in an "uber" item. If Domino is squeezed for time AND no other dev is willing to take on that project then that's that. Regular tradeskills take precident over the rest of the fun stuff.Now in the next expansion after the tier upgrade Domino should have more time to contemplate what she wants to do with crafting since she doesn't need to worry about another thousand or so recipes!

Noaani

06-27-2009, 11:20 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>2) There will likely be more tradeskill quests but I'm not sure if we'll get a new "tradeskill epic" or even a 90 tradeskill quest that results in an "uber" item. If Domino is squeezed for time AND no other dev is willing to take on that project then that's that. Regular tradeskills take precident over the rest of the fun stuff.</blockquote>Your totally right on the first point imo, but I would not be supprised at all to see Domino either add in a second "crafter epic" questline, or an expansion on the existing line - though I wouldn't be supprised if it were not in game when the expansion launches (in 7 months time!).Actually, tbh I'd be a bit supprised if she didn't add one in.

Calthine

06-27-2009, 01:06 PM

Domino told me that yes, we get a cap increase and a whole tier of recipes. I'll see if I can find her today and ask about our epic line.

Maroger

06-27-2009, 09:05 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Domino told me that yes, we get a cap increase and a whole tier of recipes. I'll see if I can find her today and ask about our epic line.</blockquote>What about fixing Jewelers jewelry? We use a rare but no one wants' its.

Meirril

06-28-2009, 07:38 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Domino told me that yes, we get a cap increase and a whole tier of recipes. I'll see if I can find her today and ask about our epic line.</blockquote>What about fixing Jewelers jewelry? We use a rare but no one wants' its.</blockquote>To be honest I'd rather see this than a new tradeskill epic type quest. I'm not even a jeweler!

Calthine

06-28-2009, 04:36 PM

I talked to Domino after the Infinity and Beyond forum (which I haven't written up yet). No, we're not getting another epic or changes to our Epics. However, there will be new crafting quest content in the expansion. She did mention that she wants to take a hard look at Adornments for the expansion, and maybe even redo them all. I'm paraphrasing there, so don't quote me.Keep an eye on EQ2 Traders - Den Mum was taking furious notes!Now to go wade through 2 days of notes for the

d1anaw

06-29-2009, 01:23 PM

What I would honestly like to see is player made stuff that is better than stuff you get from adventuring. That would put tradeskilling on a level playing field with adventuring. No one should have to play the game the same way everyone else does, in spite of what many raiders believe. Just as there should be plenty of solo/small group content for those who prefer to solo, there should be the option to tradeskill as a means to play equally. I really get tired of people who demand that everyone should be required to play the game the same way just because that is the way they feel it should be played. Then they spend all their time whining, [Removed for Content] and moaning that things aren't progressing as they should with expansions and whatnot. I also feel it is unfair to put the cool new books in areas that are difficult for straight tradeskillers to get to. The new book in Unrest is a perfect example. There is no way a low level adventurer can get to that book and that's not right. If someone has chosen to make tradeskilling their game style, that should be respected. And they should be able to access those things that are unique to their style of play.

Valanthe

06-29-2009, 01:54 PM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I would honestly like to see is player made stuff that is better than stuff you get from adventuring. That would put tradeskilling on a level playing field with adventuring. No one should have to play the game the same way everyone else does, in spite of what many raiders believe. Just as there should be plenty of solo/small group content for those who prefer to solo, there should be the option to tradeskill as a means to play equally. I really get tired of people who demand that everyone should be required to play the game the same way just because that is the way they feel it should be played. Then they spend all their time whining, [Removed for Content] and moaning that things aren't progressing as they should with expansions and whatnot. I also feel it is unfair to put the cool new books in areas that are difficult for straight tradeskillers to get to. The new book in Unrest is a perfect example. There is no way a low level adventurer can get to that book and that's not right. If someone has chosen to make tradeskilling their game style, that should be respected. And they should be able to access those things that are unique to their style of play.</blockquote>No to the first part.There's no risk in tradeskilling and it is a solo venture. When tradeskilling is as difficult as top-end raiding is, it can get top-end raid style gear.If you choose to tradeskill and only tradeskill, that is your decision. You're asking for the same thing that you feel that other players are asking when they ask for Adventuring gear to be > Crafted gear (and, quite frankly, rightly so, with the system the way it is you cannot script tradeskilling like you can adventuring).(Most people do both, as a side note... get out there and explore Norrath!)

feldon30

06-29-2009, 03:36 PM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I would honestly like to see is player made stuff that is better than stuff you get from adventuring.</blockquote>Can we say "game breaking"?

kyrr

06-29-2009, 04:04 PM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I would honestly like to see is player made stuff that is better than stuff you get from adventuring. That would put tradeskilling on a level playing field with adventuring.</blockquote>If it's better it's not a level playing field now is it?Why would you need such good gear if all you're doing is tradeskilling? Is the forge capable of repeatedly wiping a 24 person raid? Will it aoe one shot you if you don't have crit mit gear? Do you need to DA the forge in order to get that combine done w/o dying to the stove & keg and woodworking table adds? Will it stun/stifle you and prevent you from countering that event thus triggering a zone wide aoe killing all? No?When tradeskilling involves the risks and coordination needed that adventuring does, then you can ask for items to be on par (not better).I have multiple crafters, I raid, I group, I solo, I quest. Your request is indeed unbalanced and very likely (99.99%) game breaking.

Harbringer Doom

06-29-2009, 04:17 PM

<cite>kyrrah wrote:</cite><blockquote> Will it stun/stifle you and prevent you from countering that event thus triggering a zone wide aoe killing all? No?</blockquote>Can we add that as a new rare event in Guild Halls? Uncountered tradeskill event kills everyone in the Hall.

Deson

06-29-2009, 04:17 PM

<cite>Horknut@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kyrrah wrote:</cite><blockquote> Will it stun/stifle you and prevent you from countering that event thus triggering a zone wide aoe killing all? No?</blockquote>Can we add that as a new rare event in Guild Halls? Uncountered tradeskill event kills everyone in the Hall.</blockquote>That would be awesome.

Meirril

06-29-2009, 07:54 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Horknut@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kyrrah wrote:</cite><blockquote> Will it stun/stifle you and prevent you from countering that event thus triggering a zone wide aoe killing all? No?</blockquote>Can we add that as a new rare event in Guild Halls? Uncountered tradeskill event kills everyone in the Hall.</blockquote>That would be awesome.</blockquote>I'd settle for a huge AE noxious cloud. Say takes 25% health per tick for 10 ticks and locks you into combat regen. That makes some sense for most of the tradeskills. (though, not sage or tailor)

d1anaw

06-30-2009, 03:36 AM

<cite>Valanthe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I would honestly like to see is player made stuff that is better than stuff you get from adventuring. That would put tradeskilling on a level playing field with adventuring. No one should have to play the game the same way everyone else does, in spite of what many raiders believe. Just as there should be plenty of solo/small group content for those who prefer to solo, there should be the option to tradeskill as a means to play equally. I really get tired of people who demand that everyone should be required to play the game the same way just because that is the way they feel it should be played. Then they spend all their time whining, [Removed for Content] and moaning that things aren't progressing as they should with expansions and whatnot. I also feel it is unfair to put the cool new books in areas that are difficult for straight tradeskillers to get to. The new book in Unrest is a perfect example. There is no way a low level adventurer can get to that book and that's not right. If someone has chosen to make tradeskilling their game style, that should be respected. And they should be able to access those things that are unique to their style of play.</blockquote>No to the first part.There's no risk in tradeskilling and it is a solo venture. When tradeskilling is as difficult as top-end raiding is, it can get top-end raid style gear.If you choose to tradeskill and only tradeskill, that is your decision. You're asking for the same thing that you feel that other players are asking when they ask for Adventuring gear to be > Crafted gear (and, quite frankly, rightly so, with the system the way it is you cannot script tradeskilling like you can adventuring).(Most people do both, as a side note... get out there and explore Norrath!)</blockquote>So because that is what you decide it should be, that should be the end of it? @@ No arrogance there. and FTR, I have level 80 adventurers, so take your assumptions elsewhere thank you very much.

d1anaw

06-30-2009, 03:39 AM

<cite>kyrrah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I would honestly like to see is player made stuff that is better than stuff you get from adventuring. That would put tradeskilling on a level playing field with adventuring.</blockquote>If it's better it's not a level playing field now is it?Why would you need such good gear if all you're doing is tradeskilling? Is the forge capable of repeatedly wiping a 24 person raid? Will it aoe one shot you if you don't have crit mit gear? Do you need to DA the forge in order to get that combine done w/o dying to the stove & keg and woodworking table adds? Will it stun/stifle you and prevent you from countering that event thus triggering a zone wide aoe killing all? No?When tradeskilling involves the risks and coordination needed that adventuring does, then you can ask for items to be on par (not better).I have multiple crafters, I raid, I group, I solo, I quest. Your request is indeed unbalanced and very likely (99.99%) game breaking.</blockquote>Because YOU prefer to raid, it makes so much more sense to deny someone who chooses to do something else somehow a lesser player. Yeah that's fair.

LivelyHound

06-30-2009, 04:59 AM

<cite>Valanthe wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's no risk in tradeskilling and it is a solo venture. When tradeskilling is as difficult as top-end raiding is, it can get top-end raid style gear.</blockquote>Kyrrah wrote: When tradeskilling involves the risks and coordination needed that adventuring does, then you can ask for items to be on par.<hr />This seems to be a recurring theme, whenever tradeskilling rewards etc are discussed so I am just curious, but if the inherent risk, hypothetically, was increased in some form of tradeskilling, would you at some point conceed that the rewards could be as good as those of say legendary heroic quality? The above quotes imply as always happens in these discussions, yes. However, in reality when it has been posed before, the ansers invariably end up no.I am not speculating or saying what sort of risk, just that in theory if some form of tradeskill endeavour was made a risky prospect for the tradeskiller in some undefined way, would that newly now-risky, now hard-crafting endeavour be allowed rewards that were better than currently mastercrafted, current mara recipe rewards?Just because at present the normal crafting is not difficult does not mean that it is not possible to make it difficult and risky. I thought the group instances when they were introduced were supposed to be a harder form of crafting and therefore we would get some better rewards. Thus the precedent is sort of set already to ramp up the crafting difficulty in some places and increase the rewards. Hence the hypothetical qestion posed above."Can we add that as a new rare event in Guild Halls? Uncountered tradeskill event kills everyone in the Hall." This made me giggle, nice!

Meirril

06-30-2009, 05:48 AM

To be perfectly honest, tradeskill rewards may never be "on par" with raid or even high level instance content.Why you might ask? Well, because we make it for customers that never see the inherant risks that crafters, or adventurers have to see to obtain the rewards.I mean really, what are we asking for here? Are we asking for really good crafting equipment or really good adventuring equipment? In general crafters want to make stuff that will appeal to adventurers because that is why we got into crafting in the first place. Because we make stuff that sells to other people and that we can use. Crafting tools have a limited market and don't sell for much because you don't really need them. Fluff items have a market, but unless its rediculously rare and cool fluff sells for a while and then dies. Really, really good items sell like hotcakes and the demand stays strong for the entire tier. Anyone that remembers DoF also remembers that Cobalt armor sold to everybody and it went for an outrageous price. Armorers didn't complain one bit about not having a market, or undercutting.The crafter does all the work, faces all the risks and...wants to give the reward away to some guy that has a lot of plat. If devs felt like rewarding that but not creating the high demand items they could just introduce a recipe to create something that actually brokers for a high price and have it depend on collecting a large number of semi-rare drops or harvests. Sure people would broker them for cash but it will dip down far enough that someone wants to craft it or it won't sell and undercutting will happen.In the end, we honestly want to make something extraordinary. But...the entire game is built on a premis that denies us that. Unless you can convince the producers of the game that crafting is a major part of the game and it isn't be well supported by current itemization standards, I don't think it will happen.

SilkenKidden

06-30-2009, 10:19 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be perfectly honest, tradeskill rewards may never be "on par" with raid or even high level instance content.Why you might ask? Well, because we make it for customers that never see the inherant risks that crafters, or adventurers have to see to obtain the rewards.I mean really, what are we asking for here? Are we asking for really good crafting equipment or really good adventuring equipment? In general crafters want to make stuff that will appeal to adventurers because that is why we got into crafting in the first place. Because we make stuff that sells to other people and that we can use. Crafting tools have a limited market and don't sell for much because you don't really need them. Fluff items have a market, but unless its rediculously rare and cool fluff sells for a while and then dies. Really, really good items sell like hotcakes and the demand stays strong for the entire tier. Anyone that remembers DoF also remembers that Cobalt armor sold to everybody and it went for an outrageous price. Armorers didn't complain one bit about not having a market, or undercutting.The crafter does all the work, faces all the risks and...wants to give the reward away to some guy that has a lot of plat. If devs felt like rewarding that but not creating the high demand items they could just introduce a recipe to create something that actually brokers for a high price and have it depend on collecting a large number of semi-rare drops or harvests. Sure people would broker them for cash but it will dip down far enough that someone wants to craft it or it won't sell and undercutting will happen.In the end, we honestly want to make something extraordinary. But...the entire game is built on a premis that denies us that. Unless you can convince the producers of the game that crafting is a major part of the game and it isn't be well supported by current itemization standards, I don't think it will happen.</blockquote>Risk? What risk? You get killed, you sleep it off, the next day you hand in all your completed quests for rewards.

Kigneer

07-01-2009, 09:46 AM

<cite>kyrrah wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would you need such good gear if all you're doing is tradeskilling?</blockquote> Same can be said of why raiders go raiding. Master crafters are the uber of their field, and masters truly need to be making master level gear, if not equal to raiding drops, enhance it so much that a raider would be a fool to to get the item (and w-a-y too many of them won't craft at all -- to get them to even harvest is a chore!). Personally, I dislike adornments with a passion. You rise in levels so fast that they're practically useless until you're at 80. When you're at level 80 getting items (like crystalized mana for fabled adorns) is extremely difficult unless you're a farmer. Glad Domino is at least thinking of revising adornments, and hopefully something that is more useful than 170 power siphoning or +115 vs Some resist. Really would like to see dyes introduced to change colors of gear. As a Paladin still looking for some winged hat that will match the mirror status armor, as everything Pally related is off-color or just butt ugly (class hat especially). That would be a seller upon a seller.

Oceaarea

07-05-2009, 02:07 PM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I would honestly like to see is player made stuff that is better than stuff you get from adventuring. That would put tradeskilling on a level playing field with adventuring. No one should have to play the game the same way everyone else does, in spite of what many raiders believe. Just as there should be plenty of solo/small group content for those who prefer to solo, there should be the option to tradeskill as a means to play equally. I really get tired of people who demand that everyone should be required to play the game the same way just because that is the way they feel it should be played. Then they spend all their time whining, [Removed for Content] and moaning that things aren't progressing as they should with expansions and whatnot. I also feel it is unfair to put the cool new books in areas that are difficult for straight tradeskillers to get to. The new book in Unrest is a perfect example. There is no way a low level adventurer can get to that book and that's not right. If someone has chosen to make tradeskilling their game style, that should be respected. And they should be able to access those things that are unique to their style of play.</blockquote>Is that particular book no-trade? Im not sure is why I am asking ....if it is NOT no-trade than your point is moot as it can be purchased on broker or traded from guildies etc(granted though not that many are going to unrest these days), however if it is than good point.

Qandor

07-05-2009, 02:58 PM

<cite>Valanthe wrote:</cite><blockquote>No to the first part.There's no risk in tradeskilling and it is a solo venture. When tradeskilling is as difficult as top-end raiding is, it can get top-end raid style gear.</blockquote>Cool. I agree. So let's make tradeskilling as "difficult" as raiding then. I am all for it. Just be sure to include the part that once the strat is known that we can farm it ad nauseum. Heck, let's make tradeskilling even more difficult than raiding and have the gear made by tradeskills even better than raid drops. I'm up for the challenege.

Jrral

07-05-2009, 04:47 PM

<cite>Valanthe wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's no risk in tradeskilling and it is a solo venture. When tradeskilling is as difficult as top-end raiding is, it can get top-end raid style gear.</blockquote>So what's the risk to adventuring? You get killed? Big deal. You revive, you pay a repair bill, done. The biggest risk you're taking is that you have to go run a couple of writs to earn some coin. If I completely break my gear, between writ coin and vendorable drops it'll take me about 30 minutes to pay off my repair bill. Crafting, by contrast... well, when you want to run an instance or go on a raid you don't (mostly, Levi may be an exception) have to spend hours gathering the materials you'll need. And on a raid you don't spend hours killing the same mob over and over just to get the one, single, sole drop in the entire zone.

kyrr

07-05-2009, 05:06 PM

Honestly unless they change item progression this won't happen.Avatar > Fable > Legendary =/= Mastercrafted > Treasured =/= Handcrafted > Uncommon > Common

LivelyHound

07-05-2009, 09:31 PM

<cite>kyrrah wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly unless they change item progression this won't happen.Avatar > Fable > Legendary =/= Mastercrafted > Treasured =/= Handcrafted > Uncommon > Common</blockquote>So for instance?Avatar > Fabled / Raid Crafted > Legendary / Mastercrafted > Treasured =/= Handcrafted > Uncommon > CommonJust becuase it does not exists yet doesnt mean it couldn't. Lets face it group crafting never existed until TSO and then heh presto! As per my initial post, if they made some sort of high risk crafting, is there a reasonable reason for it not to have a decent reward.Currently the only real argument against it becoming reality is:Mierril: "Unless you can convince the producers of the game that crafting is a major part of the game and it isn't be well supported by current itemization standards, I don't think it will happen."Which is mostly what I thought. The people in charge don't see it is a good investment of time to develop, but then if that is the case, why did they make group crafting?At present you can get gear that adds to your crafting success rate, gear that protects your durability (if it worked), aa points to make your progress go faster, increase your crit success rate, boost your skills and so on. As for what it does for you, after +30 skill and +10% success (obtainable by crafter lvl 54) the only bonus that does any real good for you is the +%crit succes. All the new gear that was added doesn't speed up your crafting, it has no real noticable effect if I go from 430 skill to my max of 521 skill, I complete a combine in 7 ticks, every time unless I get a crit success, in which case its a 6 tick completion. Now if we had difficult overcon recipes to do this gear would actually have a benefit, hence the interest in a somehow a yet to be determined hypothetical form of raid crafting.(<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=451031">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=451031</a> For reasoning, regarding +30/+10%)

Meirril

07-05-2009, 11:22 PM

<cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be perfectly honest, tradeskill rewards may never be "on par" with raid or even high level instance content.Why you might ask? Well, because we make it for customers that never see the inherant risks that crafters, or adventurers have to see to obtain the rewards.I mean really, what are we asking for here? Are we asking for really good crafting equipment or really good adventuring equipment? In general crafters want to make stuff that will appeal to adventurers because that is why we got into crafting in the first place. Because we make stuff that sells to other people and that we can use. Crafting tools have a limited market and don't sell for much because you don't really need them. Fluff items have a market, but unless its rediculously rare and cool fluff sells for a while and then dies. Really, really good items sell like hotcakes and the demand stays strong for the entire tier. Anyone that remembers DoF also remembers that Cobalt armor sold to everybody and it went for an outrageous price. Armorers didn't complain one bit about not having a market, or undercutting.The crafter does all the work, faces all the risks and...wants to give the reward away to some guy that has a lot of plat. If devs felt like rewarding that but not creating the high demand items they could just introduce a recipe to create something that actually brokers for a high price and have it depend on collecting a large number of semi-rare drops or harvests. Sure people would broker them for cash but it will dip down far enough that someone wants to craft it or it won't sell and undercutting will happen.In the end, we honestly want to make something extraordinary. But...the entire game is built on a premis that denies us that. Unless you can convince the producers of the game that crafting is a major part of the game and it isn't be well supported by current itemization standards, I don't think it will happen.</blockquote>Risk? What risk? You get killed, you sleep it off, the next day you hand in all your completed quests for rewards.</blockquote>The risk is the risk of failure. I've been on VS raids where we've beat our heads into a wall for 3 different 3 hour sessions and didn't kill VS. That's 24 people spending 9 hours to fail. VS, on a perfect day takes about 20 minuites.I've also been on VP raids where you take a named in one pull, do its script perfectly and it goes down in 10 minuites. Next mob people keep doing little things wrong and its wipe after wipe till you've pulled out a mendor bot and are thinking about a second mendor bot but your running out of time because people are getting sleepy and sloppy and making even more mistakes.Right now, we don't have failure in crafting. Even the group instances, sure you can fail an individual combine but you can sit there for over 24 hours if you want to and finish the entire thing by yourself. In tradeskills, we have the equivellent of OOA. Everybody should be able to pass this quickly if the put together a half decent group. The major difference is if your a decent solo crafter you can do it all too.I'd like to see some new instances that actually have fail conditions but also have better rewards. Maybe some rare components for adventuring equipment drop from them. Or maybe you just get paid like you would for really good adventuring equipment? Say a 10p purse for finishing the instance in time? If you can solo it (good luck) you get the whole 10p. Most of time time you'd get between 1p 60g for a full group and 3p 30g if you 3 manned it. Hopefully it works out to better than the 3g per combine you can get for crafting writs!

LivelyHound

07-05-2009, 11:31 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd like to see some new instances that actually have fail conditions but also have better rewards. Maybe some rare components for adventuring equipment drop from them. Or maybe you just get paid like you would for really good adventuring equipment? Say a 10p purse for finishing the instance in time? If you can solo it (good luck) you get the whole 10p. Most of time time you'd get between 1p 60g for a full group and 3p 30g if you 3 manned it. Hopefully it works out to better than the 3g per combine you can get for crafting writs!</blockquote>Exactly, so would I. Something with an equivalent amount of risk to raid adventuring giving equivalent rewards.

kyrr

07-06-2009, 01:11 AM

If it has the same risk you should get comprable rewards. There is "raid crafted" if you get the recipes and seeds from EH but they have yet to add actual crafting raids.I'd get into so much trouble if they did. I can see it now.Raid Leader tells you: It's time to raid drop group and let's get going.You tell Raid Leader: Just a little longer I'm almost done w/this raid.Raid Leader tells you: What're you raiding?You tell Raid Leader: Stove & KegCixia has been kicked from the guild.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Mishkel

07-06-2009, 02:22 AM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valanthe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I would honestly like to see is player made stuff that is better than stuff you get from adventuring. That would put tradeskilling on a level playing field with adventuring. No one should have to play the game the same way everyone else does, in spite of what many raiders believe. Just as there should be plenty of solo/small group content for those who prefer to solo, there should be the option to tradeskill as a means to play equally. I really get tired of people who demand that everyone should be required to play the game the same way just because that is the way they feel it should be played. Then they spend all their time whining, [Removed for Content] and moaning that things aren't progressing as they should with expansions and whatnot. I also feel it is unfair to put the cool new books in areas that are difficult for straight tradeskillers to get to. The new book in Unrest is a perfect example. There is no way a low level adventurer can get to that book and that's not right. If someone has chosen to make tradeskilling their game style, that should be respected. And they should be able to access those things that are unique to their style of play.</blockquote>No to the first part.There's no risk in tradeskilling and it is a solo venture. When tradeskilling is as difficult as top-end raiding is, it can get top-end raid style gear.If you choose to tradeskill and only tradeskill, that is your decision. You're asking for the same thing that you feel that other players are asking when they ask for Adventuring gear to be > Crafted gear (and, quite frankly, rightly so, with the system the way it is you cannot script tradeskilling like you can adventuring).(Most people do both, as a side note... get out there and explore Norrath!)</blockquote>So because that is what you decide it should be, that should be the end of it? @@ No arrogance there. and FTR, I have level 80 adventurers, so take your assumptions elsewhere thank you very much.</blockquote>The statement is odd anyway. Someone may choose to be a "trade skiller" which could mean their idea of playing the game is to have a merchant and stock it and actually be able to sell items.The issue is the game design that EQ2 uses is not the type of design to support a real player market. You are never going to see support for crafted gear being better than raid gear. When a game is "raid designed" this means eventually you are not going to sell similar player items.EQ2 is a pretty good example of exactly how that works. (this doesn't have to be seen as a positive or a negative.. its just the way the game is designed and many games are designed this way).The first MMO I played had a player economy back in 1997. Crafted items were about the best items in the game and restocking my vendor was "the game". For the five years I played that game (yes I purposely didn't name it) I never had an issue selling items I crafted.I think its a bad idea to change an existing game so I personally wouldn't suggest changing EQ2. However, I think its something developers have to look at and make choices on what to do with game design or crafts in the future./end ramble

Noaani

07-06-2009, 07:14 AM

<cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite><blockquote>So for instance?Avatar > Fabled / Raid Crafted > Legendary / Mastercrafted > Treasured =/= Handcrafted > Uncommon > CommonJust becuase it does not exists yet doesnt mean it couldn't.</blockquote>You mean like the EH fabled crafted items?Yeah, they did that, crafters complained.There were three basic camps of complaint. One was that crafters should have access to the recipes without needing an adventurers help, one that said the recipes should not have a limited number of charges, and the last that said that a crafter should be able to make these items without the assistance of an adventurer at any point, that a pure crafter, someone that spends all their time crafting without the 'side track' of raiding, should be the one to make the best items avalible to the class.With all the complaints that came from the EH crafted items, if I were a developer, I would keep clear of any form of crafted raid level item, even if I would love to see it return as a player

Terron

07-06-2009, 11:31 AM

There are crafted items better than anything you can get on a raid - many consumables are like that.There are crafted items that require raid drops in T7 and there were in T5 long ago.There are crafted items that are the second best stuf available in the game - Expert arts.But there also are far too many areas where mastercrafted = junk.

LivelyHound

07-07-2009, 07:06 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite><blockquote>So for instance?Avatar > Fabled / Raid Crafted > Legendary / Mastercrafted > Treasured =/= Handcrafted > Uncommon > CommonJust becuase it does not exists yet doesnt mean it couldn't.</blockquote>You mean like the EH fabled crafted items?Yeah, they did that, crafters complained.There were three basic camps of complaint. One was that crafters should have access to the recipes without needing an adventurers help, one that said the recipes should not have a limited number of charges, and the last that said that a crafter should be able to make these items without the assistance of an adventurer at any point, that a pure crafter, someone that spends all their time crafting without the 'side track' of raiding, should be the one to make the best items avalible to the class.With all the complaints that came from the EH crafted items, if I were a developer, I would keep clear of any form of crafted raid level item, even if I would love to see it return as a player</blockquote>I meant Raid lvl difficulty / risk crafting giving crafted rewards of raid/fabled lvl, but thats a mouthful. So I just called it raid crafted, I am sorry for the confusion. I was hoping from the earlier post I made and the ensuing conversation that that was obvious, when I wrote:"I am not speculating or saying what sort of risk, just that in theory if some form of tradeskill endeavour was made a risky prospect for the tradeskiller in some undefined way, would that newly now-risky, now hard-crafting endeavour be allowed rewards that were better than currently mastercrafted, current mara recipe rewards?"I know about the EH stuff etc.. but I don't consider that Raid Crafted. I understand why it would be labelled that and should have realised in the post you replied to, and changed my Raid Crafted to say Hard Crafted. EH recipe crafting is not difficult crafting it is crafting using components from a raid zone, something I personally view as normal crafting, just like the mara recipes are normal crafting using drops from heroic zones. Is that called Heroic crafted? Why not if EH crafting is called Raid Crafted? I am not an advocate of this as it limits crafters and makes them beholden to adventurers. One of those camps you mentioned.Raid Crafting (to use the term) to me doesnt exist. It would be crafting that requires mutliple tradeskillers, doing something together that has chance of failure and penalties etc... somethign difficult requiring tradeskill oriented gear and so on, and it would lead to better rewards. The closest we come to is the group crafting instances but they are really not Heroic. I would go into more details but there is little point unless the primary point in my quote above is agreed upon: That we could get decent rewards for harder crafting.I hope this has been a little clearer.

Meirril

07-07-2009, 09:32 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite><blockquote>So for instance?Avatar > Fabled / Raid Crafted > Legendary / Mastercrafted > Treasured =/= Handcrafted > Uncommon > CommonJust becuase it does not exists yet doesnt mean it couldn't.</blockquote>You mean like the EH fabled crafted items?Yeah, they did that, crafters complained.There were three basic camps of complaint. One was that crafters should have access to the recipes without needing an adventurers help, one that said the recipes should not have a limited number of charges, and the last that said that a crafter should be able to make these items without the assistance of an adventurer at any point, that a pure crafter, someone that spends all their time crafting without the 'side track' of raiding, should be the one to make the best items avalible to the class.With all the complaints that came from the EH crafted items, if I were a developer, I would keep clear of any form of crafted raid level item, even if I would love to see it return as a player</blockquote>Personally I'd like to see something like the EH fabled items in a new expansion. But with some slight tweaks.I'd like to see the components for the items drop from raids, but not the recipes. The recipes should be earned via a crafting method. Either via a long quest series or via tradeskill instance drops. Perferably a combination of both actually. Also some of the subcomponents needed for the recipes only drop in tradeskill instances or are purchasable from a vendor that you earn status for via writs. This way its not a one time grind for a crafter to make an item, but rather a continual process where the crafter has to invest a good deal of time to make just one combine. In this way, the crafter's time become much, much more valuable since it take the crafter several hours just to get ready for the final combine.When the final combine is made, there should be not just the finished product but also a by product. The side product should be valuable enough that the crafter could consider that their payment. Other recipes that use the sideproduct should also exist, and also take time to obtain the subcomponents using the same crafting process. In this way, you could have 2 fabled items comming from the raid drop. One intended for the raider, one intended for the crafter. If the raider wants both, that's fine. Pay the crafter for his time or do the work and become your own crafter.The by product reward should be tradeable, because a crafter is intended to receive the by product as payment and can't commission the reward for someone else. The reward should be adventuring based because that is the focus of the game and quite honestly more tradeskill bonuses just seem redundent. If it is going to be a tradeskill bonus make it something that produces rare materials once every 24-72 hours. Maybe your own personal harvesting bot that actually can pull rares? Dunno. I'd perfer adventuring equipment or master spells.That's what I'd like to see as a blueprint for raid dropped components for fabled items.