Beginning of the end for Brigands? to a much lesser degree Swash... [Archive]

EasternKing

06-26-2009, 08:14 AM

<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=453852" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=453852</a>So, the new master plan is to remove Magical debuff ability from "rogues" and shunt it to summoners, as its Brigands who do this, what are you giving us back?Brigand = worst self buffs of the 4 dps scouts, no haste or dps, no clicky short term buffs, like the other 3 get, outside of the shared by all scout ones to haste/dps. no insight, no focus aim.Brigand = Lowest dps potential of the 4 DPS scouts. even swash out perform us single target, and own us aoe dps.Brigand = worst AA trees of the 4 DPS scouts. just lulz at brigand AA's tank specs, debuff enhancers that do nothing, the list is pretty big for the amount of suck we get via AA's.Brigand = Worst Deaggro of the 4 dps scouts. no transfers, no fixed rate % negative hate gain, we get a proc that lands for a 3rd of my auto attack ! awesome stuff.Brigand = worst aggro issues of the 4 dps scouts (combo of dps/debuffs/poor deaggro).Brigand = has the worst mythical of the dps scouts(swash is possibly equally as bad).------------------------ --------------------------------- ----------------------------- -----------------------Brigand had 100% aoe immunity for all of the above, you removed it.*(see below)* added nothing back.Brigand had debuffs that always landed, for the above penaltys, you removed it, added nothing back.Brigand had proc deaggro drops 1 hate position, for the above penaltys, you removed it, added nothing back.Brigands get told time and time again, they cant have more dps, cant have aoe damage, cant have better AA's, cant have a better mythical, cant have better deaggro, have to suck it all up basically for our DEBUFFS.so lets see, you are now planning on removing half of our debuffs ? just lulz do you even realise what you are doing to rogues? you want to fix summoners, and instead of making them desirable you are going to move rogues into the ..it dont really matter if we have them on a raid or not category?Can you also explain to me why you feel the need to add aoes to mobs that, 1 Totally ignore our amazing reflexs? and 2 Totally ignore T/swipe?*()*Amazing reflex's, my desire for this is to have you switch it back to what it was, i will explain why before everyone starts with the its to OP songs, read what i have to say, then make your mind up.Prior to EoF, Damage shields on mobs were either something like barbcoat, or the SK version, small damage dealt on every blow. with this kind of content being totally AOE immune was very very powerful, and probably warranted it being changed some what.With the advent of Avatars, we found a new mechanic, Damage shields, reactive % chance detrimental effects, real nasty ruin your day kinda stuff, i pretty much hated trying to debuff avatars back in EoF, stun,stifles,roots,fears,mez. DD, DD+dots, all of which negate in any shape or form the benefit of being aoe immune, so what if an aoe wont land on you when you have a 50% hit rate and spend 50% of a fight doing nothing.Then we get into Rok/Tso, damage shields are now a staple part of any encounter worth a [Removed for Content], not only that, but they have now evolved, not only do they stack you up with control effects that remove any control you have over your avatar, they debuff you, removing your crit's, ca damage, chance to hit, they drain your power, they proc damage and drop your not so Amazing reflexs,In short looking at the way raid content has evolved, doesnt it seem kind of silly now thinking amazing reflexs would make brigands over powered? so what if you dont take aoe damage, if you cant dps or debuff b/cos of damage shields, or aoes that totally ignore aoe block abilitys?I could kind of live with Brigands being at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to the 4 dps scouts and the 4 dps mages, if you stopped taking away the things that define our class, but hey, no one has opposed you removing everything that set us apart from the others so far, so am i wasting my time hoping that you wont put the final nail in the coffin lid for us, and will actually this time give something back for once?<address></address>

EasternKing

06-26-2009, 08:26 AM

Im all for making summoners more raid desirable, but doing so at our expense is a slap in the face, you have a huge issue atm with raids using so many bards and chanters, why dont you add some of the utility they have to summoners? you know and cut down on the need for 8 or 9 bards/chanters.you could make pets be like a miny bard or mini chanter, you could remove things like arm.coercive.battlecry.upbeat etc to summoners, make summoners desirable where you have a real issue with 4 class's being so OP they take up a 3rd of a raid force, most guilds i know use 1 swash and 1 brigand, and 9 utility class's, i mean hello? isnt this glaringly obvious?

Taicheese

06-26-2009, 08:48 AM

as it stands now, most raids are set up like thisgroup 1 -chanter, bard, tank, healer, healer, scout <--- MT group ( might have 3rd healer instead of scout)group 2 - chanter, bard, sorcerer, healer, healer, scout ( or another mage type)group 3-chanter, bard, bard, scout, healer, healer ( mainly scouts, can afford to lose 1 healer for another scout or a mage)group 4tank, healer, chanter, bard, scout, healer...please note, the coloerd classes are pretty much NEEDED in a raidso i see 4 chanters and at LEAST 4 bards, 3-4 scouts and 7-8 healers. 3/4 scouts, and 2/3 mages and 2 tanks ( dont forget some fights take more than 2 tanks now as well...)so how in the hell is this fixing the problem of requiring a summoner? there isnt room for them with 94238 bards and chanters in raid. dont even think of touching us in hopes of getting more summoners in a raid. maybe make them comparable dps to a sorc, or train them not to suck. then maybe people will bring them in raidsnow that i have cooled down some, if you gave necros / conj some sort of higher form of power regen like a chanter has... then maybe you could see them in a group or raid more often. give them more dps ( even tho i have seen some parse high as they are now). but on another note, if you give them power regen, then you are taking what a "chanter does" and giving it to somebody else. summoners are fine the way they are, its just that 99% of them dont know how to play their toons well and THAT is the reason most of them dont see groups or raids. they could use a small boost in dps imo, anything else would make them over powered

andycunny

06-26-2009, 09:25 AM

If summoners are in need of a desirability boost give them summit new, DO NOT be taking LONG established abilities from other classes, just think a little and stop being lazy. Seriously if brigands lose YET ANOTHER ability and get sweet FA in return i'm about through. CHANGE after Change after CHange is ruining this class, pack it the f o ok inChange a.k.a NERFNo Nerfs in '10

22224446

06-26-2009, 09:37 AM

i have the feeling i can't control my vocalibury right now...don't nerf us again in '10.

Taicheese

06-26-2009, 09:40 AM

its not even about nerfing, its about taking away what a brigand is, we debuff the mobs defences... hang on let me find my descriptin of what a brigand is according to sony... here it is, right off of their site... main page, undeer explore the game > classes > brigandBrigands are crafty rogues who employ intimidation and force to subdue their enemies. The Brigand maintains an element of unpredictability to arouse discomfort, fear, and confusion in an opponent. Strikes from a Brigand will often leave a foe crippled and vulnerable to further attacks.

BaronVonPitviper

06-26-2009, 10:04 AM

sorry to hear this Brigs <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />this is sad news. why on earth would the devs even consider taking away the only thing rogues do well ... debuff.my blood pressure is raising, i better just log off from this site before i smash my LCD

Geothe

06-26-2009, 10:23 AM

This is complete and utter BS.Aerlick darn well better buff brigands big time in some other manner if he makes a crap move like this.Of course he wont though, because he's simply clueless.

Dareena

06-26-2009, 11:19 AM

What the heck? I'm playing a half-elf brigand because I enjoy debuffing. But now I'm supposed to accept that part of my purpose is being gutted? Umm... Well that's brilliant.We rogues will be wanting something new in exchange for what we're losing. But the devs appearantly didn't want to give the summoners something new in the first place, so why is adding something to the rogues any more attractive?Between various things for the past year, I've started to question just how much longer I wanted to play this game. Should this change be implemented as described and we're not given something down right amazing in return, I'll likely jump ship to another MMO once it leaves the developement stages. Which is frankly too bad since I've grown fond of this game.

Taicheese

06-26-2009, 11:27 AM

you guys are all saying " well then we want something in return " lets stop saying that and just say this is a horrible idea, it strips every thing that we are supposed to do and be.if we wana play this game, we can play this game... i think that healers should be able to dps, tanks should be able to heal. mages should be able to tank and scouts should be able to cast spells. why? because its fun to give other people your abilities and make urs obsolete

EasternKing

06-26-2009, 11:49 AM

<cite>Taicheese wrote:</cite><blockquote>you guys are all saying " well then we want something in return " lets stop saying that and just say this is a horrible idea, it strips every thing that we are supposed to do and be.if we wana play this game, we can play this game... i think that healers should be able to dps, tanks should be able to heal. mages should be able to tank and scouts should be able to cast spells. why? because its fun to give other people your abilities and make urs obsolete</blockquote>I dont think asking for a reverting of AR to be what it was, was an acceptance, i dont want anything to change, i want him to give something back to our class, without taking anything else from it.

Zin`Car

06-26-2009, 12:22 PM

considering the complete lack of thought that went into the shard armor and even less consideration they put into compenstating players after they jacked the hybrid armor all to heck... the plans they have for rogues as you've have intelligently noted and counterpointed (kudos btw), my guess is SOE will eventually reduce EQ2 to the substandard drivel that SWG has degraded into. Prep for another Combat Upgrade either prior to the next expansion or will be implimented with the next expansion.i have a feeling this "General Scout Discussion" section is going to be where SOE buries class complaints so that later they can claim, "well we never heard anything from the player base about these issues you are just now mentioning... oh they were posted in the "General Class Discussion" area? who reads that?General Class Discussion forum: the "trash can" of the EQ2 forums where mods dump threads that they have no right to lock or delete yet don't want the average visitor to the forums to read and become educated by...

lazlo1

06-26-2009, 12:55 PM

Wow just Wow. Brigs have long paid a steep price for Dispatch and now to take it away...I cant believe how out of touch the devs are. Instead of addressing the issue with 8-9 bards + chanters and 8+ healers in raids they face slap brigs.

Pedigre

06-26-2009, 01:01 PM

Some dev needs to be hung drawn and quartered, quick.Just because some brainless [Removed for Content] cant make conjurers work properly, we have to suffer? guess if theyre so stupid to destroy summoners, they simply cant grasp the fact that brigs had this since day zero, some 5 years ago.Personal address to the stupid person - Just fix summoners. Fix them without screwing another class just because youre too brainless to think abuot a proper fix.Christ, no wonder why server populations are so low, when you destroy the game. Look at what Head [Removed for Content] did to SWG, nows its our turn

EasternKing

06-26-2009, 01:18 PM

please guys, i know just how angry and frustrated you feel, ive been fighting for Brigands to not be shafted since eof, and ive had my fair share of forum warnings over it, and breaks.but dont get the thread locked, we need to keep it going so they can see just how bad this idea is, and how much of a negative impact its going to have if it even makes it onto test server.

Taicheese

06-26-2009, 01:47 PM

no this is out of control. this aerlik guy needs to be fired this is silly. this is the kind of stuff that ruins the game and chases people off.

Granitface

06-26-2009, 01:47 PM

I agree with everything what is said. It is a very bad Idea to kill the only class-defining-skill Brigas have. Fix Summoners properly, but don´t nerv other classes.

Taicheese

06-26-2009, 01:50 PM

its not a nerf for the last time, it wont even effect our dps at all. its just simply taking away our abilitys and giving it to the summoners ( who will continue to sit outside of a zone and collect dkp and loot)

Chisa

06-26-2009, 01:55 PM

All I see is QQ all over the place on these forums. How about we get over it? Like Fury's had to get over being nerfed. Like summoners had to get over being nerfed.

Taicheese

06-26-2009, 01:59 PM

this would affect everyone....

Ogab

06-26-2009, 02:15 PM

this stupid idea have [Removed for Content] me off enough to post... and it needed a lot to do something like this. tbh, this forum is just a joke in it self. noone who really is in their right mind is here for some advice. all the players who know what the f*ck to do read their stuff on eq2flames and not here. the only possibility to post here is when a dev makes a bad decission (again and again and again...). i think it is obvious about what dev we speak.give the summoners pet the ae immunity we had a long time ago and they will be fine. the only part they suck is because their pets always die in the aoe's. they don't need some of our specialities to make them worth a place in the raid.just my 2 cent.

Sticknstab

06-26-2009, 03:21 PM

So why do we keep getting widdled down? Over the last 2 years this class has had more and more stripped from it. Yet we've yet to get anything to ever compensate us. If you do this the majority of the raiding brigs will probably quit or betray because there isnt going to be a point to playing the brigand anymore. Wanna fix summoners? Start by making their temp pets do something like not die in every AE and actually hit the mobs and do some damage. Make their temp pets AE immune and boost up their single target dps or their main pet. Wanna give them utility? Strip some of that off the 8 or 9 buffs the enchanters and bards get. [Removed for Content] are you takin away from us for? If you decide you wanna change our entire class you better be boosting our dps up to where the assassin is or there isn't going to be point in our class since we're not even that good at single target dps and we're horrible at AE dps.

Diamonds

06-26-2009, 03:50 PM

Why is everyone bashing summoners? I'm tired of this nonsense. Take a moment and remember summoners back before AA's. My conjuror would out tank the tanks and out damage the damage dealers. Now we have to create 1 sequence and master it to perfection and use it everytime for every fight. Do you know how boring it is to only have one super sequence to make the most out of your character? I feel like a robot and I stopped playing for a very long time. I only play my summoner when I mentor friends.We got nerfed WITH NO REMORSE. It's been years since I've been able to try and be what I was and guess what.........I'm never going to be at my previous level again. So quit whining and find a new game. It happens to everyone.

Morghus

06-26-2009, 03:55 PM

<cite>Diamonds wrote:</cite><blockquote>We got nerfed WITH NO REMORSE. It's been years since I've been able to try and be what I was and guess what.........I'm never going to be at my previous level again. So quit whining and find a new game. It happens to everyone.</blockquote>I'm sorry but what you are describing sounds incredibly overpowered and deserving of its nerf, seriously? Out tanking tanks and out damaging dps? And about the robotic casting order...pretty much every dps nowdays that is worth anything is doing the exact same thing to some extent.

Mayhem2k

06-26-2009, 03:58 PM

Plain and simple, if this goes through I'm finally done. After betraying to Brigand over 3 years ago, I have seen nerf after nerf. This class just keeps getting stripped over and over. When does it stop?

Coho1

06-26-2009, 04:00 PM

The easiest summoner fix is just boost their damage skills on par with other casters. Then they have level footing for raids/groups.The harder fix is new skills..non-tank cast rescues, real spell reflects, epic stuns, etcI really hope nothing is changed in the brig. I just came back and my old guild asked me to run this toon up as they didn't need my pali now.

allegacy

06-26-2009, 04:10 PM

<cite>Sevannah@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>All I see is QQ all over the place on these forums. How about we get over it? Like Fury's had to get over being nerfed. Like summoners had to get over being nerfed. </blockquote>You obviously have no state of worthy logic, or even a ounce of reasoning, thus you'd retract this statement pretty quick. If you had read over the few brigand forums, you'd realise that infact, we have been through said change's, and we would not like to go through something that has been a aprt of this class since it's inception.Their are infact way's to balance the summoner class, without have to pick away from other class's.This is a change that will obviously upset the playerbase of the dwindling brigand community.Anyone with enough smart's, can just browse through the SOE official brigand forum and see for themsleves that we have been ignored for long enough time.Please, do not take anymore away from us.

Asif

06-26-2009, 05:15 PM

Well i dont have a Brig i dont think taking away from one class to give to another class is the right thing to do at all.Its simply give them more Dps / Utility so they are wanted more in raids and groups.

Zykdous

06-26-2009, 05:26 PM

This actually is pretty on target, imo. It's all leading towards something I've been thinking for a while now, and I agree with the change.The way I see it, there are far too many classes in this game. A lot of them are just sort of.. fillers. So combining abilities like this will most definately help the game out, then removing the pointless classes completely.Here's the breakdown I have had in mind for a while:Utility is pretty stupid to base a class on. Remove utility classes and divide their utility up amongst the other classes. Delete utilityHealers need more dps to be able to do anything on their own. Give them the ability to dps via spells and combat arts. Delete caster/melee dpsLastly, everyone should be allowed to tank, it's too difficult to spend all day looking for a tank class just so your party of 5 can finally do something, give everyone tanking survivability and aggro control. Delete tanks.There we have it, no wasted classes, all balancing issues solved. Reduce everything down to 1 single class taht can tank, heal, dps, and has utility of all classes.

Kromulok

06-26-2009, 05:59 PM

alarmingly terrible idea.I suppose it is time to find another class to play or another game. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We are Brigand. We debuff. Thats what we do.

Kidou

06-26-2009, 11:51 PM

Ouch... Really?And earlier someone in my guild asked me, "When are you betraying to Brig?" 100% seriously. He says I won't get any more places in raids unless I do.

Treznet

06-27-2009, 12:37 AM

I guess its time to switch my main to my assassin. Good job detroying a class

Darkor

06-27-2009, 09:51 AM

[Removed for Content] decided to do this? Please dont tell me aeralik before i totally go on rampage.

Lady Shai

06-27-2009, 12:15 PM

<cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Removed for Content] decided to do this? Please dont tell me aeralik before i totally go on rampage.</blockquote>Have fun on the rampage .....Now, I am a summoner. A Conjuror. Have been since Day 1 of this game. I was a mage since the beginnings of EQ1 as well. We ONLY asked for some summoner love cos frankly we have been ignored for a long long time. NOBODY I know think sthis is a good idea what they are planning.Iam married to a Brigand. My husband played a swashy for many years and betrayed over to a Brigand and loves that character. I daresay he is rather good at it, but I may be biased. The last thing I want to see is his class get nerfed and have a class defining skill taken away and given to me... this is stupid imho.This needs to be looked at...there has to be a better way than to do it like this. Don't take class defining skills away! FIX THE CLASSES!!!

Darkor

06-27-2009, 03:14 PM

<cite>Lady Shai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Removed for Content] decided to do this? Please dont tell me aeralik before i totally go on rampage.</blockquote>Have fun on the rampage .....Now, I am a summoner. A Conjuror. Have been since Day 1 of this game. I was a mage since the beginnings of EQ1 as well. We ONLY asked for some summoner love cos frankly we have been ignored for a long long time. NOBODY I know think sthis is a good idea what they are planning.Iam married to a Brigand. My husband played a swashy for many years and betrayed over to a Brigand and loves that character. I daresay he is rather good at it, but I may be biased. The last thing I want to see is his class get nerfed and have a class defining skill taken away and given to me... this is stupid imho.This needs to be looked at...there has to be a better way than to do it like this. Don't take class defining skills away! FIX THE CLASSES!!!</blockquote>Can hardly fault the summoner community for this stupid idea. I can only dare Aeralik or whoever had this idea to do this.

Ashmen_Skimmerhorn

06-27-2009, 03:30 PM

This alone will not change anything for summoners and is a slap in the face for both Brigands and summoners. Taking class-defining abilities away from Brigands is a horrible idea. It would be like taking away pets from summoners and giving them to Brigands in exchange for them giving summoners the magic debuff. It also makes the Devs look totally unimaginative, I cant believe they cannot come up with new debuffs to give summoners that would make them highly attractive to raid forces. New abilities do not have to be mitigation debuffs to make them attractive. The most important aspect of this is it does nothing to free up a spot in the raid force. Most raid guilds only run 1 Brigand already so replacing the Brigand for the summoner is not going to happen just for the magic mitigation debuff. In fact, it is not going to change the situation of 4 chanter, 4/5 bards and up to 8 healers being needed in the raid force. On many names the raid looks something like: G1 G2 G3 G4 Coercer Illy Illy Illy Dirge Dirge Troub Dirge Templar Templar Fury Troub Defiler Defiler Mystic Inquisitor Swash Assassin Wiz Brig Guard SK/Zerk Lock Wiz This change is not going to address the problem of needing 9 of the 24 spots to be chanters/bards and another 7/8 spots being healers. That leaves only 7/8 spots left, 2 for tanks and 5 for "DPS" classes. 2 (swash, assassin) of the 5 are needed for hate transfer so now you're down to 3/4 spots for "DPS": 1 Brig, 2 Wiz and 1 Warlock. Even without the magic debuff, brigands are not going to be taken out or the raid force so you're left with 3 spots to choose from to place the summoner. I don't see taking out either of the Wizards or the Warlock to make room for the summoner. Even without the magic mitigation debuff those 3 would do more combined DPS then if you replaced 1 of them with the summoner for the magic debuff. What I see this as, is a nerf to BOTH the brigand and all the casters in the raid because as pointed out there still is not room for summoners so this means there just will not be a magic mitigation debuff for the casters in the raid. If anything this will cause raid forces to replaces Wizards and Warlocks with more melee DPS classes. This solves nothing for summoners and is only a nerf to Brigands. I know you need to do something to make summoners more attractive to raid forces but at the same time you need to address the issue of having room for them in the raid force. My $.02

Castonu

06-27-2009, 04:00 PM

I have to agree..this is not a good idea. To lose one of our class defining abilites to be able to support another class's desirabilitly for raiding is not the way to go about it.Don't nerf brigs by taking away this ability.

Leonorinth

06-27-2009, 05:10 PM

I'm guessing they are set on this idea forcing summoners needed for raids so we probly should drop that part of losing our debuffs and instead fight for a reasonable replacement of skills.making dispatch no better then enfeeblement means they need to give use something for that. I.E. more dmg from the hit or a totally new design of the ca.Taking blood rake to nothing but a dmg ca with replacing the utility of it also needs to be rethought and given a new edge to it.comming up with idea's to make these skills usefull/more worth while with what they are taking away is basically all we have left to fight for instead of just getting ticked about the loss of debuffs. Lets fight for the balancing of dps vs swash.I for one could care less if they took away my magical debuffs if they give me an adequate return for that. By not upping my dps and replacing the skills that they are stealing from I would not agree in any part to a change.

Roache

06-27-2009, 05:16 PM

just heard about this for the first time today sad face <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Neskonlith

06-27-2009, 06:43 PM

SOE raid mob and script design is directly responsible for overrpresentation of bards/chanters - chanters will always be needed because TSO raids are always looking for power regen.How is nerfing brigands going to mean fewer bards/enchanters in raid?? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />Any explanations??

Neskonlith

06-27-2009, 08:48 PM

k, thanks to a helpful poster with a blog link, I was able to read more details from eq2wire:Extend eof and kos trees50 more AA points250 capEnd abilities at bottom of eof and kos trees will be combinations instead of additional buttonsAa xp sliderSpell ranged melée heal taunt crit merged to just critDouble attack and RDA merge to just DAEach class has crit coefficientsSame gear adds diff crit % for diff classesReduce mitigation types toPhysical. Elemental. Nox. ArcaneConsolidate common self buff linesGear scaling system — old gear scales downDruid heal over time with expiration heal for groupmateDruid should be viable healerNo need to bring 8 support classesRaidwide buffs for chanter and bardIlly time compression 4 ppl - 1 per groupSummoner debuffs spell dmgRogue debuffs melée dmgAll of these changes will be on test for a long time—-Rare Loams are going away for T9Thanks for the info! More information can be found at: <a href="http://fanfaire08.feldoncentral.com/">http://fanfaire08.feldoncentral.com/</a>I'm looking forward to getting a chance to examine this nerf on Test and making sure that my /feedback is heard - no taking without giving!

Neskonlith

06-27-2009, 09:14 PM

one last item from Feldon at eq2wire before I log back into game:Swash and brigands pick up some of each others class abilities.

Taicheese

06-27-2009, 09:17 PM

wtb hurricane

SparkleCBP

06-27-2009, 09:47 PM

Seriously, what a stupid thing to do to our class. It is unimaginative and just downright, well....stupid to rob a class like this to "fix" another.I seriously doubt they'll do a [Removed for Content] thing to help us out for this transgression....I mean, we already got Will to Survive....that tells you how much Aeralik the wise thinks of our class.

Psycho Babbler

06-27-2009, 11:35 PM

A Brigand is a Debuffing class. A class that lowers the a monsters ability to absorb, deflect, or parry dmg. That is my understanding of this class since the begining of EverQuests II's service to its client/player base. Also as it it discribed by SOE through EverQuests character creation screen.A Swashy is a Debuffing class. A class that lowers a monsters ability to hit, and other offensive aspects of combat. That is my understanding of this class again since the begining of EQ2.A brigiand dos so / so dmg , or as some would say rank2 of 3.A swash is the upper part of Rank 2 of 3Congy's ........ a pet class? Well thats my understand since the eq2 started, so why the change? I take it now that brigands will get a pet dog that will hump its owners leg.Fix congy's the right way by making what they do.... Better! DUH!... or change them into Bea Stlords! /gasp

Roache

06-28-2009, 03:18 AM

after listening to the "reasoning" behind this propsed change at the FF panels it seems to me like they are going to make brigs and swashes "more similar""brigs are going to pick up some swash traits and swash's pick up some brig ones"magical debuff's being transferred to the summonersthis way, as aerilick puts it, all 4 of these classes will be useful on raids, but not necessary, so that if a brig is not present raid DPS will not take the hit that it "currently" takes.As far as I can tell all this does is make brigs more like swashbucklers -- the two classes are seperated for a reason.As I understand brigs debuff defense (mit, def., parry, etc...) swash's debuff offensive skills.I realy don't see that much of a problem removing the magic debuff's from our CA's, sure it sucks, but its not that big of a deal really. however, if I wanted to play a class that was more like a swashbuckler, I would have rolled a swash.If classes don't have class-defining abilities, there's no point in the current subclasses. We should remove them, merge classes. Have 4 archetypes, each with 3 classes. That way we're all more desirable on raids.(that's a ridiculous solution, obviously)But this is what has, more or less, been proposed in order to "balance" gameplay.edit: also, my brig is an end game raider -- apparently i haven't been on the "official" forums in a very long time [via my sig]

Darkor

06-28-2009, 04:10 AM

Every raid REQUIRES to have 4 bards and 4 enchanter. Nowdays you do not even need a brigand. Yeah it helps, but sure aint neccessary. This is going to completely fail aka aeralik style.

Anurra

06-28-2009, 11:46 AM

<cite>Roache wrote:</cite><blockquote>after listening to the "reasoning" behind this propsed change at the FF panels it seems to me like they are going to make brigs and swashes "more similar""brigs are going to pick up some swash traits and swash's pick up some brig ones"magical debuff's being transferred to the summonersthis way, as aerilick puts it, all 4 of these classes will be useful on raids, but not necessary, so that if a brig is not present raid DPS will not take the hit that it "currently" takes.As far as I can tell all this does is make brigs more like swashbucklers -- the two classes are seperated for a reason.As I understand brigs debuff defense (mit, def., parry, etc...) swash's debuff offensive skills.I realy don't see that much of a problem removing the magic debuff's from our CA's, sure it sucks, but its not that big of a deal really. however, if I wanted to play a class that was more like a swashbuckler, I would have rolled a swash.If classes don't have class-defining abilities, there's no point in the current subclasses. We should remove them, merge classes. Have 4 archetypes, each with 3 classes. That way we're all more desirable on raids.(that's a ridiculous solution, obviously)But this is what has, more or less, been proposed in order to "balance" gameplay.edit: also, my brig is an end game raider -- apparently i haven't been on the "official" forums in a very long time [via my sig]</blockquote>Sorry Posh, you have been replaced by 6 necros and 12 Conj's!

Psycho Babbler

06-28-2009, 04:00 PM

Don't say aww.... they will only take away the magic portion of dispatch and or Rake line away. Thats pussying out. WE the Rouges Are the Debuffers!We Debuff!We do it the Best!Other classes have debuffs but nothing like the brigs, or the swashys. It's what makes us WHAT we are!congy's are not what we are so there should be no reason to make them so. what they are trying ta do is make up for there lack of though behind the amount of different classes when they made this game bu merging everything. Why dont we just go back to assassins, pally, inquiz, and wiz, and bard. then we wont have any problems about classes not being wanted for raids.

Cheslan

06-28-2009, 09:31 PM

There's no reason to take away our class-defining ability, except that SOE rarely adds anything. They only remove things or shift things laterally.Breaking our debuffs and giving them to conjurors will -not- make them more atttractive for raids. We don't even take a conjuror as it is, and won't take one, or leave me off, if this stupid idea is implemented.Sharing brig/swash abilities serves what purpose? Swashies are fine as they are. It would be nice if some of the things that brigs lack or have been changed (mythical, lack of hate transfer, weak AAs, Thieves Guild) could be beefed up, but that's not what this is about.Raids already are brings 4+ bards and 4 chanters. Clearly they have all the desired utilty, not brigands. Pulls some things off of them and give them to summoners, if the goal is to make other classes less desirable and make summoners in some way useful.

Errolflynn

06-29-2009, 06:43 AM

Don't forget this little snippit:Also, with regards to Rogues, Brigands and Swashbucklers each have irreplaceable abilities such that most raids have 1 of each. Some of these abilities will become common between the two classes so that any Rogue can be effective in raid situations.What's wrong with wanting one of each type of Rogue in a raid, I thought that was the whole point. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" />

pedigr

06-29-2009, 08:06 AM

So, aerheadlik is going to nerf brigs abilities, give them to swashybucklers and i doubt returning the favor. So brigs become swashbuckler without AE dps. Why evenbother bringing a brig when you can bring two swashys? Talk about the stupidest class merger ever. What next? Rangers will be a purely melee class? Wizards will get massive heal abilities Druid will become t1 dps? Please.... Aererilik - you need to go back to basics... Reading would be a good start. Read the complaints from summoners that theyve been posting for YEARS. Pull your head out of where ever is, some cloud, come back down to earth and listen to the people that play this game... They want their classes fixed, not just given abilities stolen from another class. They want to see proper balances, just just seeing assassins tearing awayOne week on and...Stupidest idea.... ever....

kitty88

06-29-2009, 01:02 PM

Why need scouts that requires to chase after mob's rear/back to dps when all casters can easily stack against the wall and dps, and also not worry about knockbacks.The new desirable raid will just have to take all casters to maximize dps, and yes, kill all the scouts, maybe less troub/dirge.

archikauri

06-29-2009, 01:23 PM

SOE staff have so stupid idea sometime...

Raahl

06-29-2009, 02:23 PM

Beginning of the end? I think not.Hmm. Almost every class has been nerfed at one time or another. Some even multiple times.While I don't agree with some of the changes purposed, classes that have been nerfed before have adapted to the new system. I guess rogues will have to also. EQ2 as it stands has some major issues with class balance and class identity.

Raahl

06-29-2009, 02:49 PM

BTW - I expect that Bards have just as much to complain about as their Rogue brothers do.From: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=454003">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=454003</a>"A lot of support classes (bards/Chanters) are having their abilities refined to reduce the need for multiples in a raid. More buffs are being made multi-use or raid wide."So now 1 Troubador and 1 Dirge per raid. Think of all those bards who are going to be sitting on the sideline. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I see nothing about revamping/repairing the Fighter classes. I'm sure they will find a way to yet again nerf the Ranger class.

Lady Shai

06-29-2009, 02:59 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>BTW - I expect that Bards have just as much to complain about as their Rogue brothers do.From: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=454003">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=454003</a>"A lot of support classes (bards/Chanters) are having their abilities refined to reduce the need for multiples in a raid. More buffs are being made multi-use or raid wide."So now 1 Troubador and 1 Dirge per raid. Think of all those bards who are going to be sitting on the sideline. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />I see nothing about revamping/repairing the Fighter classes. I'm sure they will find a way to yet again nerf the Ranger class.</blockquote>Well, from my understanding of what was said earlier at FF, is that the bards will be able to use a group only single-target buff <ie Battle Cry> on a non-grouped, in raid member. So there will still be multi bards needed imho... same for chanters. TC, and so on will be cast on members not in group but in another part of the raid.What it looks to me like they are doing is to not make the group setup so mandatory as it is now.. ie. MUST have bard in MT group, or MUST have chanter with scouts etc . The buffs they have wont be over the entire raid, but on one person in the raid, who doesnt HAVE to be in the group like they are now for most part.Maybe I misunderstood... its been known to happen. But from everything I have read and listened to from people who were there, this is what I got from it.

Raahl

06-29-2009, 04:21 PM

<cite>Lady Shai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, from my understanding of what was said earlier at FF, is that the bards will be able to use a group only single-target buff on a non-grouped, in raid member. So there will still be multi bards needed imho... same for chanters. TC, and so on will be cast on members not in group but in another part of the raid.What it looks to me like they are doing is to not make the group setup so mandatory as it is now.. ie. MUST have bard in MT group, or MUST have chanter with scouts etc . The buffs they have wont be over the entire raid, but on one person in the raid, who doesnt HAVE to be in the group like they are now for most part.Maybe I misunderstood... its been known to happen. But from everything I have read and listened to from people who were there, this is what I got from it.</blockquote>If that is true then it won't be as bad. But if the post I quoted is correct. Look out bards.

Aeralik

06-29-2009, 09:40 PM

It is interesting all these posts started before there were any panels. Anyways, both times that I went over this was from a really high level perspective. I went into a quick overview of what was happening. It did not go into any fine details of anything. One thing we we have been focusing on though is to make sure there is more versatility in the roles and it was a common theme through all the balance segments. We need to do the same thing here which in turn brings the rogue and summoner lines of the two archetypes more in line while no one class is the far superior debuffer.Other things will be looked into as well. I've been waiting for a balance pass to make some other adjustments to rogues like the wisdom line and some other things. We don't have all the fine specifics yet but once we do, I am sure I will post something. Until then, things are still the status quo and unchanged. Also as my slides all said, this is still subject to change.

Dreyco

06-29-2009, 10:11 PM

They aren't taking away anything from Brigands. They're just dividing it up a little bit. Brigands will still be able to debuff, and perhaps just as much as they are now. It's just going from "THE Debuff to defense and resists" to "THE Debuff to Melee defense and resists", while "Magic" based things are moving to summoners.The responsibility isn't being ganked. It's being shared.

Morghus

06-29-2009, 10:26 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>They aren't taking away anything from Brigands. They're just dividing it up a little bit. Brigands will still be able to debuff, and perhaps just as much as they are now. It's just going from "THE Debuff to defense and resists" to "THE Debuff to Melee defense and resists", while "Magic" based things are moving to summoners.The responsibility isn't being ganked. It's being shared.</blockquote>Regardless, I have a feeling some will simply go back to the way some setups were back at tier 5....which was simply to load up with scouts. Having to rely on two different classes to debuff two different types of mitigation/resists reliably without either debuffer dying is rather compromising.All this change will do is nerf the ability of raid forces. People will still want to run with multiple enchanters if they dont want their groups to run dry on power, power being a large issue even with enchanters on the harder fights this tier.

Morgonn

06-29-2009, 10:59 PM

Why not leave well enough alone? pffft.

Dreyco

06-29-2009, 10:59 PM

<cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>They aren't taking away anything from Brigands. They're just dividing it up a little bit. Brigands will still be able to debuff, and perhaps just as much as they are now. It's just going from "THE Debuff to defense and resists" to "THE Debuff to Melee defense and resists", while "Magic" based things are moving to summoners.The responsibility isn't being ganked. It's being shared.</blockquote>Regardless, I have a feeling some will simply go back to the way some setups were back at tier 5....which was simply to load up with scouts. Having to rely on two different classes to debuff two different types of mitigation/resists reliably without either debuffer dying is rather compromising.All this change will do is nerf the ability of raid forces. People will still want to run with multiple enchanters if they dont want their groups to run dry on power, power being a large issue even with enchanters on the harder fights this tier.</blockquote>Well, at that point in time, it will be the moment where you point fingers at the guilds and not the devs, because by all rights, every class will be worthwhile in having in some way, shape, or form. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And according to the panels (All subject to change), some of those buffs will become raid wide, making it unnecessary to bring more than one, unless that's what you want to bring.

Morghus

06-29-2009, 11:15 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>They aren't taking away anything from Brigands. They're just dividing it up a little bit. Brigands will still be able to debuff, and perhaps just as much as they are now. It's just going from "THE Debuff to defense and resists" to "THE Debuff to Melee defense and resists", while "Magic" based things are moving to summoners.The responsibility isn't being ganked. It's being shared.</blockquote>Regardless, I have a feeling some will simply go back to the way some setups were back at tier 5....which was simply to load up with scouts. Having to rely on two different classes to debuff two different types of mitigation/resists reliably without either debuffer dying is rather compromising.All this change will do is nerf the ability of raid forces. People will still want to run with multiple enchanters if they dont want their groups to run dry on power, power being a large issue even with enchanters on the harder fights this tier.</blockquote>Well, at that point in time, it will be the moment where you point fingers at the guilds and not the devs, because by all rights, every class will be worthwhile in having in some way, shape, or form. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />And according to the panels (All subject to change), some of those buffs will become raid wide, making it unnecessary to bring more than one, unless that's what you want to bring.</blockquote>The intent is all well and good, but sometimes the method butchers the intent. Instead of needing 1 brigand in the raid, the raid will now require 1 brigand, 1 necromancer, and 1 conjuror to properly debuff enemies of their resistances.That is incredibly large in current tier raids, as even having over 500 in relevant casting skills is not enough to not get resisted alot by level 88 raid enemies before debuffs are applied. If sorcerors are going to require two other classes in the raid just to debuff their resistance type then it might be better not to have them.Especially on fights where the enemies actually strip themselves of debuffs frequently. And fights where enemies raidwide power drain or instantly drain someone from full to 0% require enchanters in groups especially Illusionists with their epic proc.

Dreyco

06-29-2009, 11:55 PM

<cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>They aren't taking away anything from Brigands. They're just dividing it up a little bit. Brigands will still be able to debuff, and perhaps just as much as they are now. It's just going from "THE Debuff to defense and resists" to "THE Debuff to Melee defense and resists", while "Magic" based things are moving to summoners.The responsibility isn't being ganked. It's being shared.</blockquote>Regardless, I have a feeling some will simply go back to the way some setups were back at tier 5....which was simply to load up with scouts. Having to rely on two different classes to debuff two different types of mitigation/resists reliably without either debuffer dying is rather compromising.All this change will do is nerf the ability of raid forces. People will still want to run with multiple enchanters if they dont want their groups to run dry on power, power being a large issue even with enchanters on the harder fights this tier.</blockquote>Well, at that point in time, it will be the moment where you point fingers at the guilds and not the devs, because by all rights, every class will be worthwhile in having in some way, shape, or form. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />And according to the panels (All subject to change), some of those buffs will become raid wide, making it unnecessary to bring more than one, unless that's what you want to bring.</blockquote>The intent is all well and good, but sometimes the method butchers the intent. Instead of needing 1 brigand in the raid, the raid will now require 1 brigand, 1 necromancer, and 1 conjuror to properly debuff enemies of their resistances.That is incredibly large in current tier raids, as even having over 500 in relevant casting skills is not enough to not get resisted alot by level 88 raid enemies before debuffs are applied. If sorcerors are going to require two other classes in the raid just to debuff their resistance type then it might be better not to have them.Especially on fights where the enemies actually strip themselves of debuffs frequently. And fights where enemies raidwide power drain or instantly drain someone from full to 0% require enchanters in groups especially Illusionists with their epic proc.</blockquote>Correction. One brigand/Swash, and one necro/conjy. With about three less Coercer/illusionists, and three less dirges/bards. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So only two. But you can add more if you want to!

Thundy

06-30-2009, 01:10 AM

Davngr1

06-30-2009, 02:04 AM

all mana songs/procs will clearly become raid wide and no i don't like the current idea about spliting the debuffs. i feel they should stick to necro/brig debuff defense and conj/swash debuff offense. if anything the necro will take the second brigs spot. ofcourse swash and conj offensive debuffs should be pretty massive. of course time will tell.

EasternKing

06-30-2009, 07:55 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is interesting all these posts started before there were any panels. Anyways, both times that I went over this was from a really high level perspective. I went into a quick overview of what was happening. It did not go into any fine details of anything. One thing we we have been focusing on though is to make sure there is more versatility in the roles and it was a common theme through all the balance segments. We need to do the same thing here which in turn brings the rogue and summoner lines of the two archetypes more in line while no one class is the far superior debuffer.Other things will be looked into as well. I've been waiting for a balance pass to make some other adjustments to rogues like the wisdom line and some other things. We don't have all the fine specifics yet but once we do, I am sure I will post something. Until then, things are still the status quo and unchanged. Also as my slides all said, this is still subject to change.</blockquote>Can you not grasp why this is causing me and other brigands upset? id really suggest reading my first and opening post of this thread, we have been the bottom of the totem pole in a lot of areas when it comes to the 4 dps scouts, and for all time we have been told "you are a debuffer", " you have Dispatch", " you are wanted on raids even with the low dps, cos you have debuffs", all of this has been true, and accepted i could live with all of them things, bitter as they may be to accept, but now you plan to remove the reasons why we have been sub performers to other dps scouts.Im all for you sharing our class defining abilitys with Swash/Conj/Necro, what i have no faith in you to do, and your track record is living proof of this, is to give us anything back worthwhile in return for what you take from our class.if you do take them, fine, but please when you do,:Rework our deaggro to be inline with Preds/Swash,Rework our self buffs to be inline with Preds/Swash,Rework our short term buffs to be inline with Preds/Swash, ie give us one,Rework our god awful AA lines to be inline with Preds/Swash.Rework our Aoe dps to be inline with Preds/Swash,I will go on record here and say id be happy with you actually merging Swash and Brigand, so long as you take whats good about both class's and combine it.

pedigr

06-30-2009, 12:35 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>They aren't taking away anything from Brigands. They're just dividing it up a little bit. </blockquote> Sounds like two mutually exclusive statements to me. "Theyre not taking anything away from Brigands" would mean just that, nothing is being taken away. Taking vs magic debuffs and giving them to summoners is *exactly* taking something away from Brigands.

pedigr

06-30-2009, 12:36 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote> so long as you take whats good about both class's and combine it.</blockquote> That would put rogues closer to assassin dps.... so you know Aerilak is never go to do that.

Raidyen

06-30-2009, 12:37 PM

<cite>Thundy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is interesting all these posts started before there were any panels. Anyways, both times that I went over this was from a really high level perspective. I went into a quick overview of what was happening. It did not go into any fine details of anything. One thing we we have been focusing on though is to make sure there is more versatility in the roles and it was a common theme through all the balance segments. We need to do the same thing here which in turn brings the rogue and summoner lines of the two archetypes more in line while no one class is the far superior debuffer.Other things will be looked into as well. I've been waiting for a balance pass to make some other adjustments to rogues like the wisdom line and some other things. We don't have all the fine specifics yet but once we do, I am sure I will post something. Until then, things are still the status quo and unchanged. Also as my slides all said, this is still subject to change.</blockquote>Quite frankly it's because at this point not one Swash that I've seen trusts anything you have to say. And that's your own fault, and it's your job to prove otherwise.</blockquote>QFEThe Swash mythical, the lack of understanding of what the hate transfer meant to the swashies, etc. I mean taking away swashy hate transfer would have been like taking away debuffs from the brigand... Hmmmm.Like i said to aeralik during the fighter revamp, you can take the hate transfer, but you need to give us something in return. Same goes for the brigand and thier debuffs.

pedigr

06-30-2009, 12:56 PM

You know something is seriously wrong when a swashy sticks up for the Brigs.. Aerilak, pay attention, people are seriously p***ed off. The reason people read between the lines, is because you simply cant, or dont, convey your intentions. You dont tell people whats going on any more than hinting at a class destruction. What would you have us do? Some people have been playing Brigs for FIVE long years. Theyre about to see the class ripped apart and the scraps thrown to other classes because you simply dont want to listen to what they are saying / asking for / begging for. They want their pets fix but youve just thrown them the left arm that you ripped off the Brigs. The only time we seem to see anything from you is when you make a flash appearance here and tell people that theyre wrong, then disapear again. How about removing ALL assassin util and givng that to summoners. Let them debuff vs crit. Assassins arent a util class,why should they have util? Brigs are a util class...

Coho1

06-30-2009, 02:35 PM

Give debuff for melee crits to brigs.. We are gonna be the melee defuffers now. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Seolta

06-30-2009, 02:43 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>They aren't taking away anything from Brigands. They're just dividing it up a little bit. Brigands will still be able to debuff, and perhaps just as much as they are now. It's just going from "THE Debuff to defense and resists" to "THE Debuff to Melee defense and resists", while "Magic" based things are moving to summoners.The responsibility isn't being ganked. It's being shared.</blockquote>Regardless, I have a feeling some will simply go back to the way some setups were back at tier 5....which was simply to load up with scouts. Having to rely on two different classes to debuff two different types of mitigation/resists reliably without either debuffer dying is rather compromising.All this change will do is nerf the ability of raid forces. People will still want to run with multiple enchanters if they dont want their groups to run dry on power, power being a large issue even with enchanters on the harder fights this tier.</blockquote>Well, at that point in time, it will be the moment where you point fingers at the guilds and not the devs, because by all rights, every class will be worthwhile in having in some way, shape, or form. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />And according to the panels (All subject to change), some of those buffs will become raid wide, making it unnecessary to bring more than one, unless that's what you want to bring.</blockquote>The intent is all well and good, but sometimes the method butchers the intent. Instead of needing 1 brigand in the raid, the raid will now require 1 brigand, 1 necromancer, and 1 conjuror to properly debuff enemies of their resistances.That is incredibly large in current tier raids, as even having over 500 in relevant casting skills is not enough to not get resisted alot by level 88 raid enemies before debuffs are applied. If sorcerors are going to require two other classes in the raid just to debuff their resistance type then it might be better not to have them.Especially on fights where the enemies actually strip themselves of debuffs frequently. And fights where enemies raidwide power drain or instantly drain someone from full to 0% require enchanters in groups especially Illusionists with their epic proc.</blockquote>Correction. One brigand/Swash, and one necro/conjy. With about three less Coercer/illusionists, and three less dirges/bards. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> So only two. But you can add more if you want to!</blockquote>CORRECTION: [Removed for Content] would you add [Removed for Content] DPS in those slots? The extra slots will go to t1 DPS NOT to rogues OR summoners.Devs put some work in and fix summoners with positive changes to their class. This BS debuff debacle simply causes problems and solves none.

Cheslan

06-30-2009, 03:21 PM

Even if making these changes do free up raid slots, it's very unlikely they'll be given to summoners. A lot more would have to be given to those classes to make them desirable enough to go on the have to have one roster.If summoners need more desirablilty, okay. It shouldn't be at the cost to another class. Moving abilities from bards and chanters, who are making up a third or more of the raid as it is, makes more sense than changing brigands. Utility needs to be moved from the MOST common classes not one of the least common.

BaronVonPitviper

07-01-2009, 08:16 AM

aye Deekin. this reminds me so much of our battle against the witch king regarding the whole swashy myth / hate xfer debacle. I was in outrage and shock at the inflexibility the devs were bringing to the table during that epic struggle (in which we lost btw). The only reason he didn't implement those rediculous changes to the swashy was because the entire fighter change was scrapped. We would have been bent. I really fear for the brigs now because there was no convincing that guy at all when the eye was on us and he was actively on the rampage.btw, IBTL!

Shareana

07-01-2009, 12:09 PM

I would suggest that the personal attacks stop please.....There is no need for that on these forums in order to get a point across.

Raidyen

07-01-2009, 01:24 PM

<cite>Shareana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would suggest that the personal attacks stop please.....There is no need for that on these forums in order to get a point across.</blockquote>uhh, what personal attacks? dont know maybe i missed something but i just reread the last 2 pages and i didnt see any personal attacks. I saw some players voicing thier concerns about aeraliks ability to handle these changes effectively, but thats not personal, thats just business, and statements about how things have been handled before. Im sorry but its not like we are coming out of left field with our concerns on this, He already showed us in the past how he likes to handle things like this, and us as players are just saying we dont want to see that happen, AGAIN.I also find it somewhat, interesting, that aeralik can be blunt and disrespectful to us in posts, but when we want to voice some legit concerns, we get a mod telling us to stop some phantom personal attacks.I would love for Aeralik to prove every single one of us wrong. But until he does so, our concerns will stand. Does that get the point across?

Coho1

07-01-2009, 02:24 PM

Those open spots will be high DPS casters.

OutcastBlade

07-01-2009, 07:35 PM

Winge. Winge. Winge. Quit your winging brigands. It's not the end of your class. Summoners are getting some desirability at your OP expense.Fact is... there are no facts. Yet. Save the lynch brigade for when you have actual data to look at.

Tanlliel

07-01-2009, 09:17 PM

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>The responsibility isn't being ganked. It's being shared.</blockquote>Ohh, thats nice, can brigs share some assassin stuff?

kitty88

07-01-2009, 09:52 PM

Why not give Traumatic Swipe to Summoners.

pedigr

07-02-2009, 05:36 AM

<cite>BaronVonPitviper wrote:</cite><blockquote>aye Deekin. this reminds me so much of our battle against the witch king regarding the whole swashy myth / hate xfer debacle. I was in outrage and shock at the inflexibility the devs were bringing to the table during that epic struggle (in which we lost btw). The only reason he didn't implement those rediculous changes to the swashy was because the entire fighter change was scrapped. We would have been bent. I really fear for the brigs now because there was no convincing that guy at all when the eye was on us and he was actively on the rampage.</blockquote>Reminds me of a line from Highlander where Kurgen says "He cares about these helpless mortals?"I never thought I would say this, maybe someone should slap me but please rehire Lockeye

Kasar

07-02-2009, 12:10 PM

<cite>Tanlliel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>The responsibility isn't being ganked. It's being shared.</blockquote>Ohh, thats nice, can brigs share some assassin stuff?</blockquote>I think they need heals. Maybe a rescue-type aggro grabber.Of course with that, they'll need some defensive temp buffs.Might as well give them some spells to replace debuffs.What class was this again?

pedigr

07-02-2009, 02:20 PM

<cite>Kasar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tanlliel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>The responsibility isn't being ganked. It's being shared.</blockquote>Ohh, thats nice, can brigs share some assassin stuff?</blockquote>I think they need heals. Maybe a rescue-type aggro grabber.Of course with that, they'll need some defensive temp buffs.Might as well give them some spells to replace debuffs.What class was this again?</blockquote>One thats not played by a dev with a clue

Delow

07-03-2009, 04:30 AM

There is no use or reason to get upset or [Removed for Content] off over this yet. Save your energy for when the changes have been announced so you can direct valid, constructive input at them. Everything that is planned is still months out so enjoy the game and wait for a post from him outlining whats coming.One thing I will say since we know debuff changes are planned is this: I hope Aeralik takes into account one of his previous comments to swashbucklers about our debuffing ability.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I wish I could sit down with Aeralik and get his thinking about SoH. I expect he's got too much on his plate to be able to come back to re-work (or replace) SoH. Still, I'd like to know.<blockquote>Why does he think SoH should be our lvl 80 spell rather then a CA that helps our primary ability - debuffs? Or any CA that would also be beneficial when soloing.Your primary role is actually dps which you do pretty well. Debuffs are a seconday role, but on raids debuffs are already pretty plentiful. </blockquote>Responses are inline in red. </blockquote>I want our DPS to stay our primary role but I hope with these debuff changes the debuffs we have (or will have after the changes) become more noticable and desireable on raids then they are now. This applies to both rogues and summoners with your proposed changes.That said, I'll wait and see what is planned for the rogue class before I get too worked up over whatever is happening. It sounds like a revamp is taking place (to some extent) for the rogue classes based on his comments.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>One thing we we have been focusing on though is to make sure there is more versatility in the roles and it was a common theme through all the balance segments. We need to do the same thing here which in turn brings the rogue and summoner lines of the two archetypes more in line while no one class is the far superior debuffer.Other things will be looked into as well. I've been waiting for a balance pass to make some other adjustments to rogues like the wisdom line and some other things. We don't have all the fine specifics yet but once we do, I am sure I will post something. Until then, things are still the status quo and unchanged. Also as my slides all said, this is still subject to change.</blockquote>

Nero

07-03-2009, 06:02 PM

Where did 2 ways communications go?As I remember, the previous producer promised 2 ways communications when big changes is done.I'm afraid that the original fighter revamp(old GU51) will be introduced silently without 2 ways communications as Brigand will be nerfed.Was "2 ways communications" a bluff?

bighead222ed

07-05-2009, 01:38 AM

Well at the rate we are losing players..we have lost 40% of the player in less then a year....seem at every fix we lose 5 to 10 % in 2010 we have enough to form one raid on all the servers.....Keep it sony and DEV ////the econmy is bad enough your makeing it worse...Please fill out proper Unemployment papers in few months....

Kyvar

07-06-2009, 12:08 PM

Not again...Just came back and now this lol

Errolflynn

07-07-2009, 07:45 AM

I agree with Odeius, lets wait for the details.

Kanlei

07-07-2009, 11:07 AM

I'm semi excited to see what they do to the wisdom line. If they revamp it like they did with the brawler str line I'll be excited to see this. Right now it's only useful for leveling up, and it is stupid easy to level now so it's pretty much worthless.

Darkor

07-07-2009, 12:59 PM

<cite>Aleadra@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm semi excited to see what they do to the wisdom line. If they revamp it like they did with the brawler str line I'll be excited to see this. Right now it's only useful for leveling up, and it is stupid easy to level now so it's pretty much worthless.</blockquote>Dont hope for too much. Its Aeralik designing the brigand tree and not the assassin tree.

Kanlei

07-07-2009, 11:31 PM

I'm a swash <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />, but on another note, he was(I'm fairly sure) the one who redesigned the brawler STR line, and I was very happy with revamp on that when my main was a monk.Dunno just cross your fingers and hope for the best, because honestly it really can't get worse, I don't know one high end Brig/Swash that uses the wisdom line, so any rework of it's current state should be a plus.

Turb

07-08-2009, 05:29 AM

The bottom line here is that after the fighter revamp debacle, SOE promised to work more closely with the player base and - shock of all shocks - listen to the playerbase.But this sounds so much like the same mess all over again. An idea that has merit at 10,000' is twisted around by devs that seem to have no clue how the game actually works, into something that doesn't fix the underlying real issue, and is leaked in such a negative way... oh yeah, you brigs, you're getting nerfed soon, not sure exactly how... oh, yeah it may make two of your three class defining CA's [Removed for Content] but hey... will tell you more in 6 months... have a nice day.Awful PR, awful way to handle your playerbase.

Menden

07-09-2009, 01:15 PM

I recently came back to EQ2 a few months ago (after about an 18 month hiatus) and have enjoyed levelling up my Brigand. Levelled slowly to learn the class and am just hitting RoK now. Really have enjoyed Brigand, and knowing that Dispatch would be useful in raids, balanced of course by all the aforementioned downsides and previous nerfs.I left EQ2 just after the release of RoK, back when my main was a conjurer that I enjoyed playing until it too was nerfed to oblivion. I figured I would give EQ2 one more chance, and intentionally chose a class that was NOT overpowered, specifically avoiding the flavor of the month ShadowKnights, bards and chanters, and picking one that had previously been nerfed enough that NO ONE complained it needed nerfing.If this goes through, I am gone for good as I have just had enough. This has to be the least thought out change to date by Aeralik, and that's saying a lot. I know this is obvious to everyone, but I will point it out again for SOE. I am a Brigand. I debuff. That IS my class-defining role. I give up a lot for that ability. There are MANY, MANY suggestions on improving conjies/necros on the summoner forums. There is a reason we all think this idea is plain stupid -- even the conjies.My previous toons were a warden and a fury created at launch (and which I played in beta). Along with the conjie, they are now just lv 80 crafting alts, after their classes became completely undesireable after poorly thought out changes to game mechanics. My only other toon was a baby Monk. I am tired of giving EQ2 second chances, and I refuse to play an assassin just so I know I am safe from the nerf bat. I realize that the threat of me leaving means nothing to SOE but thought I would add my 2 copper as to how much of a bad idea I believe this to be, speaking as both a conjurer and a brigand.

Leafkiller

07-10-2009, 03:59 PM

I'm horrified, just...god...Whats left for brigs? We do less dps that other melee scouts, have no meaningful aoe output, no meaningful ranged dps, no hate transfer, no group buffs, very limited self buffing. Our dps really requires us to stay put and batter away at the mob steadily. We do not have any quick, massive damage we can do, and then run away, and still maintain a high dps.All these limitations are a trade off for two main abilities we sopposedly have (had). AR allowed us to stay in close, and slug it out with the mob for dps. We didn't need spike dps or ranged dps, since we didn't joust. Plus, we were the debuff kings and we were wanted not because we have massive damage, buffs, or hate transfer, but because we increased everyone else's dps.Then AR is nerfed to pointlessness without any class rebalancing. Now, it is the eq2 equivalent of Russian Roulette, and too dangerous to use in a lot of fights. Of course, lots of other classes have a useful AOE resist now so it is not a big deal that brigs don't really have it any more, right?Unfortunately, with AR as it is we have to joust and stay at range like everyone else...and we don't have the proper set of abilities to do that particularly effectively.Bring on Russian Roulette and some repair kits...or watch our dps take a pounding.But, we were told, we are still THE debuff class so we would certainly still be desired in raids. Of course, this is entirely because we make EVERYONE'S dps better and that will no longer be the case. I suppose they can change the mechanics to put the cap on mit debuffing WAY higher and other melee classes would then really, really like us, but I doubt it. Given that we are already at the point were additional mit debuffing is pointless, it would have to be a significant change and I don't see it happenning. Does anyone take Dispatch Defence to increase mit debuff on Dispatch? Between our mit debuffs and everyone else's there is no point to improving the amount of debuff.Even some of our secondary raid utilities are less useful since raid mob effects and encounters seem to be designed to ignore Traumatic Swipe or Enhance Battery and Assualt. Whats a brig to do?Now we will be useless to caster groups in raids, and it will even hurt us in caster heavy instance groups since we will add nothing to the group other than our dps.I have a suggestion...Remove the Swashy and the Brig classes entirely.Do away with them.Replace them with a single class with the mitigation debuffs you want us to have and proper balance of offensive abilities, without the drastic restriction we have now. Delete AR and give us some ranged dps and aoe dps, and at least one massive dps hit we can use while jousting. Give us some sort of hate transfer as well.Yea, right...IF what you end up doing is striping the brigand of yet more abilities without remove the significant penalties the class has built into it to balance the very skills you are crippling, well...

Nero

07-11-2009, 12:01 AM

I'm concerned about a group, especially a pug.Brigand has debuffed all resists which are physical resist and magical resists.But in a pug, won't Brigand and Mages become incompatible?For example, in a pug which has SK, Wizard, Illusionist, Brigand, 2 Priests, what merit will Wizard and Illusionist get from Brigand because Brigand debuffs only physical resists?Until now, in such a case, Wizard and Illusionist can get merit from Brigand's Dispatch.But after Brigand's "nerf", what will happen?I'm concerned.

Psycho Babbler

07-11-2009, 02:28 AM

I got a few questions... ok...So one of out Ca's that debuffs magic will be no more? If it's taken away, will that not lower our DPS since that's a backstab? I say this since our Epic weapon, and Shadow endline add to our back attack's damage. Also if they plan to replace such CA with hurrican, will it replace the dmg lost on a single target? Just some concerns since its going to happen... with or with out our thoughts in mind.Another question I have is whats stoping raid forces to not just use Melee dps once the Debuffs are spread out? I see nothing beyond caster support classes being need for dps, since melee dps has the upperhand on Auto attacks. Unless I been lead to believe in wrong info. Auto attacks mixed with the right buffs can put out more DPS on a reliable constant than your adverage caster. My point is proven more so with SOE stating that auto attack is higher than they want, but don't intend to ajust it soon. Another point for this question is scout's ability to survive. WE do get more health than casters. Beyond chanters, if more than one raid caster dies, the raid dps will drop very fast.On the other hand... the make up of the raid could swing totaly in the other direction to all caster dps. Though in my opinion that would be a rather squshy force. In such case what would the point of a brigand, or assassin(s)? Brigands have nothing to offer casters in any way shape or form beyond spell mit-debufs. Same applys to assassins, and swashys, and dirges with my knowledge. Thats just for solid Dps, not the few support buffs they offer.As I see it from what little info thats out there. Is that the changes are going to one-side alot of aspects of the gameplay. Right down to groups trying to take on a hard task.Also I would like to state that I would love to see our buff called Theives Guild to become a group buff, with a 5% hate reduction to all in group. Unmoding rouges and summoners..... if you realy go there... /sighA increase to, Amazing Reflexes, our personal AOE blocker by 6% with a 2 second bonus to its duration.Aoe immunity to Band of thugs, with a reduced reuse timmer and better Aoe attacks. "yes they do aoe the encounter" This C-art could become our Aoe damage or at least a part of it....Replace the debuff portion to Will to Survive with something more effective thats defines a Brigand. I think changing this to reduce our reuse timers on our combat arts by 25% if under 20% health would be an interesting example.Replace Noxious Toxins with a Crit Bonus and Crit Damage to poision(25%max) or something along the lines beyond Nox-mit debuff. Since we're not the caster debuffers nolonger... /sighAllow tramatic swipe to work on more AoE's.What I see that defines us as a class right now at the moment. Is our t2 dps, our mit-debufs, personal aoe proc buff, and Double up. Please try and keep it this way but not limited to!Copied from someone's notes at the Fan FaireEpic and Mythical weapons will stay level 80. The unique effects of the Mythical weapon will be usable perhaps as a clickable item, charm, or mythical slot, but it will not be your primary weapon at level 90 as the green and blue stats will be scaled down 33% or more........................ make it a myth slot with the player ability to turn on or off that slots apperance!just a few sugestion..

Nero

07-11-2009, 06:22 AM

I thought of types of debuff of Rogue and SummonerDebuffA. Swashbuckler(debuff of melee attack)1) dps2) accuracy3) melee crit %4) damage of melee crit5) double attack %6) damage of double attack7) chance of success of melee attackB. Brigand(debuff of melee defense)1) mitigation2) avoidance(block, parry)3) critical mitigation4) speed of HP regenerationC. Conjuror(debuff of spell attack)1) spell dps2) spell accuracy3) spell crit %4) damage of spell crit5) chance of success of spell attackD. Necromancer(debuff of spell defense)1) magical resists2) speed of power regenerationClealy, Brigand and Necromancer(debuff of defense) will have less debuffs than Swashbuckler and Conjuror(debuff of attack).How do devs think about this?

Sheridan-Guk

07-14-2009, 01:01 AM

I hear a lot about summoners being broken, etc. I don't play your class, but I have watched 2 guildies (conjy and necro) throw down crazy parses on aoe mobs and single target mobs. I watch the swashy run neck and neck on our brig parses on single targets. The swashies do crazy aoe dps. So, the other classes dps better. My brig debuffs better.Now you're flirting with the idea of taking away my brig debuffs to "balance" out the other three.When you form these panels, I surely hope you find some people who actually know how to play a summoner. Watch them in raids and groups. Then come back and tell me they need some of my debuffs too.

AriesRichmond

07-16-2009, 07:29 PM

Please do not change our dispatch! Making it melee only and damage will just make it the same as Debilitate or however that lvl 80 CA is spelled. Please don’t make us weaker to make another class appear stronger. In fact Brigand should be a class you should be looking at helping not hindering. We are the debuff scout and should not lose that.

G'ville

07-17-2009, 12:57 AM

My wife plays a brig, and the only reason that character was created and PLed was due to the wizard nerfs that lead them to perform poorly as intended in comparison to other casters. Yes the wiz can do great DPS, if they have TC, choker, a bard, and at this point a Brig.After hearing the rumor of the class being nerf, she has come to terms we may find a new game because she refuses to start over again.I see no point in diminishing a classes primary strength to share with other classes to make them more appealing. In theory Brigs primary role is DPS, but can they compare with Preds in general, or swashs in AE situations?I have also seen summoners do decent DPS, especially necros if they get heals through life burn. They are considered to be the best soloing class's. Do they really need to fill two niches, Debuff and Soloist?Make some of the abilities they already have stronger. Let them cast a tank pet that can actually fill in the absence of a off tank. Have hearts/shards be a buff that procs off the mob always refreshing to a new stack of each, shorten the recast time on them, have them use up less health. That along would make them more desireable and lessen the need for so many chanters on raids.I would really like to see EQII keep going strong for awhile since there does not seem to be any good alternatives in the near future.

Bruener

07-17-2009, 10:51 AM

<cite>Fracus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hear a lot about summoners being broken, etc. I don't play your class, but I have watched 2 guildies (conjy and necro) throw down crazy parses on aoe mobs and single target mobs. I watch the swashy run neck and neck on our brig parses on single targets. The swashies do crazy aoe dps. So, the other classes dps better. My brig debuffs better.Now you're flirting with the idea of taking away my brig debuffs to "balance" out the other three.When you form these panels, I surely hope you find some people who actually know how to play a summoner. Watch them in raids and groups. Then come back and tell me they need some of my debuffs too.</blockquote>Well thats probably why SOE said that Brigands and Swash are also going to start sharing abilities. You know, like HURRICANE.Also, to the person above that posted about how the Swash and Conj will debuff more....it is definitely still equal because decreasing the defense of the mob significantly helps the entire raid put out a lot more dps and get the job done faster. Decreasing the mobs DPS output really only affects the tank most of the time, or can usually be healed through and becomes trivial once people gear.

Serenade

07-17-2009, 08:58 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well thats probably why SOE said that Brigands and Swash are also going to start sharing abilities. You know, like HURRICANE.</blockquote> While we don't know the specifics yet, I'm sure what they talking about is more along the lines of giving Brigs our offensive debuffs and giving us Brig defensive debuffs.They stated that they planed to have us share abilities in order to make it so a raid does not require both a swash and brig and that would open up raid slots for other classes. Since raids don't chose a Swash because we have hurricane I doubt Brigs can expect to be getting that. Swashy is wanted for our offensive debuffs, agro transfer and AoE block. Since our AoE block is a Swashy tree AA I doubt Brigs will get that. That pretty much leaves debuffs and agro transfer. That's happens to be the real issue imho. First, why is it that we are the only ones that have to basically become the same class in order to make room for other classes in a raid setting. I think we can all agree that the current dev team is certainly not the brightest bunch we've seen, but this is beyond dumb for even them. Second, of they do give us same debuffs and agro transfer than thats going to screw over Brigs big time as there will be no reason to take a Brig over a Swashy since we have AoE block and they don't. Regardless of the outcome, this whole deal proves only one thing. The current dev team is not up to snuff in terms of game design for EQ2.

Davngr1

07-20-2009, 11:06 AM

i said this before on this thread i think. brigs and necros need to be the defensive debuff classes and conj and swash need to be the offensive debuff classes. there just aren't enough defensive debuffs to go around for 4 classes unelss they remove ALL defensive debuffs from ALL the other classes.. and that point soloing and small groups will become lame as hell, specially with current mob resist and avoid.

Kyvar

07-21-2009, 05:15 AM

I play Brig since the beginning of this game and I tasted all the nerf we took, but I think that this one will really distroy the class... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> I went along with the others because they didn't touch our debuff. It was ok for me to drop AR or to drop dps as long as I can still do this: debuffing...I agree with Serenade. If the change go through, you can just delete the Brig from the game...I don't know what's the problem with Brig on raid. Ho, he takes 1 place on 24 (I can remember there are 24 class in this game...) and you can still do raid without it... You can't do raid without healers, bards or coercer/illu and you need far more than one for that (even with the incoming changes on buff)... But everybody is ok with that. I really want to understand why it's Brig that need to give everything he had to others class to balance raid force... You don't need a brigand for another thing that their debuff...If you want a non magic dps, take an assassin/ranger or even a swash. If you want debuff, if the nerf go live, just take a swash, he can do the same debuff and even more dps. If you want group buff, take a dirge/troub, Brig only have two buff to give and one is share with swash in shadow AA! If they only give us an aggro transfer in return it's just incredibly insane...I never whined on this forum in 5 years, never. But those people who say that it's a minor change or not a nerf just balancing have never play Brig or just don't care of what he will become...Sorry for my poor english but I just wanted to talk on this subject (even if it will change nothing if SOE really want to do that..)My only last request will be to rename this class if the changes go live, because it will have nothing to do with Brigand and the identity it had in the last 5 years...ps: By the way, my guild's raid is full of magical dps. I leave you a quizz: who do you think will loose his slot in raid after all these changes? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

Backpayne

07-22-2009, 11:52 AM

My original main was a templar and I played him for 3 1/2 years before he was retired.With that being said, my current main is a brigand and has been for nearly a year. He was originally a swashy but I betrayed because the guild I was in needed a brigand for the debuffs in raids and already had a swashy. It took a little getting used to but I wouldn't trade my brig for the world.If you plan on nerfing the class by moving some of our debuffs to summoners, you need to give us a lot more back than what you are taking. <ul><li>Our agro issues are well known. Give us a fixed % dehate buff or increase the effectiveness of our deagros.</li><li>Our dps is lower than our counterpart, the swashbuckler, in both single target and AE encounters. Increase our base CA damage by 10-15% on single target encounters. There's no denying we are Single Target DPS and NOT AE. With so many AE encounters in the current content, we do need something to make our spot viable in a group. Adding another AE or adding a 25-30% chance for our auto-attack to hit all mobs we are currently facing would improve that.</li><li>Amazing Reflexes is negated by damage and almost every raid mob has a damage shield. Why not an AA that would allow AR to continue even on damage?</li><li>Shenanigans is useless in all settings. Mobs in instances hit hard enough without crits and requiring us to be hit to do the damage makes this Combat Art suicidal. With the snap agro abilities from tanks, 95% of the time its used its simply a waste. Alter it into a 2min reuse CA for a 5k+ hit that reduces our defense and parry for 1min and keeps the positional jump but does NOT require us to be hit.</li><li>Will to Survive doesn't do enough for the amount of AA's required to get it and for being an end-line ability. Instead of a 2% health debuff on an epic mob, you could alter it into a 20sec temp buff with a 1min reuse that adds a positional drop to our attacks and procs a DD on a successful melee attack. This would resolve some of our agro issues and bring the CA in line with its name while adding some dps.</li></ul>Our class is defined by our ability to debuff the defense of a mob. Summoners are defined by their ability to control pets while still being casters. You want to make summoners more "desireable" in raids by moving some of the brigands debuffs to them. Why? So that after that patch you can listen to class-X cry because they are no longer desired in raids because of reason-Y? It is and will always be a never ending battle.The solution is NOT nerfing another class to make another one more desireable. With the mechanics as they are currently, you require 4 enchanters and 4-5 bards in a raid due to the buffs they bring. Altering some of those buffs, but not all, to be raid-wide enhancements would reduce the dependancy on those classes. Due to the way AA's are setup, most classes run a "cookie-cutter" style selection. Making buffs such as Fortissimo, Allegro, Don't Kill The Messenger, etc go raid-wide would still allow for "thinking outside the box" so to speak. Altering Illusory Arm, Time Compression, etc to be cast on multiple players with a set limit to 1 person per raid group (max of 4) would reduce dependancy on enchanters. Allowing power regen of both archetypes to go raid-wide would also help.If you want to help summoners, give them something to bring to the table for the GROUP they are in. Take their fire seed buff for example. Have it go group-wide with a single conc slot requirement and increase its dps by at least 200% and up the proc rate substantially. With the alteration of one spell, you've increased what they bring to the table. Have their AA's enhance their pets to help the class they are based off - i.e. air pet (scout) could increase the groups haste and dps by 30 if the summoner spec'd for it. Their earth pet (fighter) could decrease the hate of all non-fighters in a group by 25% (group-wide moderate if you will). Mage pet could increase the base damage of all magic based spells by 5%.All of this ties into the same thing in the long run... Do NOT nerf the brigand class to help another class that lost their place in raids because of the way the mechanics are in the game currently.Reduce the dependancy on utility in raids and increase what the less desired classes bring to a group.

G'ville

07-23-2009, 01:57 AM

Honetly I think this would have been a good idea if it was implemented years ago. Doing it now is too late, too many people have grown into their role in groups and raids. IMO there are plenty of other options besides stripping one class. I normally play an Inq. If you took away the restrictions on Fanaticism, I could keep it up all the time and still be able to heal. And make Inquest a group wide proc like Temps combat glory, mana would be less of a problem. Give another class a decent DPS buff and we could fill in for one of the very necessary utilities.

Seolta

07-28-2009, 08:50 PM

I've already abandoned my Brig and returned to my SK as raid main...ironic really, since I rolled my brig over a year ago when SK's couldn't buy beg or steal a raid spot.Brigs are doneskis as a raiding class if these changes go live.Now just waiting for the tank "re-screw" which will probably cause me to cancel all my accts and ban SOE products forever.It's totally pointless to play a game with a rotating list of useless classes.P.S. i've stuck with SOE through thick and thin since '99 so for me to cancel and ban = kinda a big deal on a personal level

Faeward

08-03-2009, 10:45 AM

Wow, all this class consolidation sucks!So, a Brigand is going to be basically the same as a Swashbuckler.A Necromancer and Conjuror summon creatures... but also debuff because that's a cool random thing for them to do.Bards and Enchanters aren't going to be as useful, so you know what this means right?It means we're going to have a LOT of healers <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (I even hear Warden's are getting some groovy debuffs)

Morgonn

08-03-2009, 10:45 PM

*severely edited*The heck with it. If they decide to nerf us in this manner, I can always find another game.

Kendayar

08-05-2009, 01:44 PM

<cite>Fracus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hear a lot about summoners being broken, etc. I don't play your class, but I have watched 2 guildies (conjy and necro) throw down crazy parses on aoe mobs and single target mobs. I watch the swashy run neck and neck on our brig parses on single targets. The swashies do crazy aoe dps. So, the other classes dps better. My brig debuffs better.Now you're flirting with the idea of taking away my brig debuffs to "balance" out the other three.When you form these panels, I surely hope you find some people who actually know how to play a summoner. Watch them in raids and groups. Then come back and tell me they need some of my debuffs too.</blockquote>Please stop posting. If you don't know anything about a class, don't give your expert (read: wrong) analysis. That goes for most people in the thread when I look back on it.But since you didn't even bother to figure out what's really wrong with summoners, above all else, is utility (As in when a summoner goes to a raid, other classes can easily bring what they bring to a raid and then some. As in when the rest of your dps turns the suck stance off, summoners are no longer needed since they'll be replaced by a T1 DPS and the utility they would've had is already covered by other classes that outperform their utility and dps capability).

Kyvar

08-06-2009, 05:41 AM

After the change, what you say about summoner will be true for Brigand, except if they do a really good job at giving us something worth it (I'm maybe pessimistic, but after 5 years bearing SOE policy, I'm quite desabused <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /><a href="http://www.mediadico.com/dictionnaire/francais-anglais/desabuse/1"></a>).Brigand bring nothing but debuff. We don't have groupe buff, we don't do fantastic dps, we don't have cool solo buff we can give to other people. So they are going to give you our magical debuff, and they will, whatever arguments we will bring to them because they have just decided to do so (SOE way of doing). I really hope it will help you having a spot in raid, really <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />.But what about Brigand? While we have info on your changes, it's hard to get some on ours. They are talking to merged Brig and Swash because they are both need in raid, I though it was the case for most of the class: you need both illu and coercer, both dirge and troubi, both defiler and mystic etc... So why rogue.About mitigation debuff, lots of class have one and the mob it's already caped anyway, so I hope they will give us something different. If they give dispatch to Swashi too, I hope they will give us a new thing that nobody have because in the state of our skills, no way we can compete with swashi.My problem is more about information. We have none. We are just waiting to be hit by a big nerf we know that anyway will come, but we don't know how we will be finish off. I'm sure you can understand that.I'm quite disgusted. I never thought we will finish to loose dispatch and I hope they will bring back the stuff they took from us because of this debuff. Now I just wait and see. I fell like I want to just quit but I'm a junkie I guess lol

Darkor

08-06-2009, 10:43 AM

<cite>Vanand@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fracus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hear a lot about summoners being broken, etc. I don't play your class, but I have watched 2 guildies (conjy and necro) throw down crazy parses on aoe mobs and single target mobs. I watch the swashy run neck and neck on our brig parses on single targets. The swashies do crazy aoe dps. So, the other classes dps better. My brig debuffs better.Now you're flirting with the idea of taking away my brig debuffs to "balance" out the other three.When you form these panels, I surely hope you find some people who actually know how to play a summoner. Watch them in raids and groups. Then come back and tell me they need some of my debuffs too.</blockquote>Please stop posting. If you don't know anything about a class, don't give your expert (read: wrong) analysis. That goes for most people in the thread when I look back on it.But since you didn't even bother to figure out what's really wrong with summoners, above all else, is utility (As in when a summoner goes to a raid, other classes can easily bring what they bring to a raid and then some. As in when the rest of your dps turns the suck stance off, summoners are no longer needed since they'll be replaced by a T1 DPS and the utility they would've had is already covered by other classes that outperform their utility and dps capability).</blockquote>And you are one of these people, who think that taking class defining skills from a class that is allready used only once in a raid, is the correct way? Back in the day on some major kills like Druushk we didnt even had a brigand. Some times we just happen to not have one arround and we raid successfully without one. So you take stuff from a class that barely has a raid slot and make it worse? What about those 4 enchanters and bards? Enchanters are T1 dps nowdays and still bring lots of support. Go take something from them.The Brigand has not been fun for ages. Swashys compete with us in single target dps. On aoe fights swashys completely smoke us. We are nowhere near the dps of T1 classes like Assassins or wizards. Our debuffs are good but lets see it from another point. So many classes bring Mitigation debuff that the cap is allready reached on raids.End-abilities like will to survive are utterly crap. We completely miss any type of aoe dps. We bring zero group utiliy (expect thieves way which is, compared to other 80 ancients, completely junk). We have no cool selfbuffs. If you ask me, the dev are going into a complete wrong direction with the brigand class. The fun factor went downhill in the last 2 years <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

Farore

08-09-2009, 06:14 AM

<cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vanand@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fracus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hear a lot about summoners being broken, etc. I don't play your class, but I have watched 2 guildies (conjy and necro) throw down crazy parses on aoe mobs and single target mobs. I watch the swashy run neck and neck on our brig parses on single targets. The swashies do crazy aoe dps. So, the other classes dps better. My brig debuffs better.Now you're flirting with the idea of taking away my brig debuffs to "balance" out the other three.When you form these panels, I surely hope you find some people who actually know how to play a summoner. Watch them in raids and groups. Then come back and tell me they need some of my debuffs too.</blockquote>Please stop posting. If you don't know anything about a class, don't give your expert (read: wrong) analysis. That goes for most people in the thread when I look back on it.But since you didn't even bother to figure out what's really wrong with summoners, above all else, is utility (As in when a summoner goes to a raid, other classes can easily bring what they bring to a raid and then some. As in when the rest of your dps turns the suck stance off, summoners are no longer needed since they'll be replaced by a T1 DPS and the utility they would've had is already covered by other classes that outperform their utility and dps capability).</blockquote>And you are one of these people, who think that taking class defining skills from a class that is allready used only once in a raid, is the correct way? Back in the day on some major kills like Druushk we didnt even had a brigand. Some times we just happen to not have one arround and we raid successfully without one. So you take stuff from a class that barely has a raid slot and make it worse? What about those 4 enchanters and bards? Enchanters are T1 dps nowdays and still bring lots of support. Go take something from them.The Brigand has not been fun for ages. Swashys compete with us in single target dps. On aoe fights swashys completely smoke us. We are nowhere near the dps of T1 classes like Assassins or wizards. Our debuffs are good but lets see it from another point. So many classes bring Mitigation debuff that the cap is allready reached on raids.End-abilities like will to survive are utterly crap. We completely miss any type of aoe dps. We bring zero group utiliy (expect thieves way which is, compared to other 80 ancients, completely junk). We have no cool selfbuffs. If you ask me, the dev are going into a complete wrong direction with the brigand class. The fun factor went downhill in the last 2 years <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Well for starters. Live in that boat you describe that is so bad, and you've had the life of a summoner and ranger for quite some time, and to a less degree, brawlers and druids. Though i do feel your pain. SOE shouldnt fix one class by taking an ability from another balanced class, take it from one thats overpowered. I just can't stand how [Removed for Content] out utility is and how necessary 4 bards and 4 enchanters is. And how no one feels like that is an issue... BTW if they make one illy able to give 4 TCs to a raid members(1 per grp), that only means that:1. If you can only cast 1 tc per group, that means when your illy is gone, you /fail the raid.2. if you can cast more than 1 tc per group. why not bring 4 illys???Either way, it will backfire.

Coho1

08-10-2009, 01:54 PM

I guess I'm upset they picked brig for the nerf. There are other classes that bring more to the raid that could have given up something. If this change is going thru we need to ask for something in return.. AOE's, etc

Backpayne

08-12-2009, 11:57 AM

You can ask, beg, and scream until you're blue in the face....once your class is targetted for the nerf bat, the only thing you can do is watch.Rangers have screamed since RoK that they needed a bump...they got their focus aim buff to go group wide <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> and a few minor tweaks to it.Summoners have screamed since EoF...they're finally being thrown a bone which is being ripped out of the brigs.If you honestly think about it, at least from what info I've heard, the only thing they are taking is the magic debuff off of rake. If thats all they take, I'd be fine with a 25% increase on the damage in return. If they want to take the cold debuff from the snare, sure - just make sure you add a damage component to it instead so that its still worth having on the hotbar. The best part of all though - Regardless of what we, the paying players, ask for... SOE will do what they always do - whatever they want. No use in posting anything further, the only thing the players can do is wait and watch while the gods toy with their puppets.

Farore

08-12-2009, 11:34 PM

<cite>Backpayne@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rangers have screamed since RoK that they needed a bump...they got their focus aim buff to go group wide <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> and a few minor tweaks to it.</blockquote>Do you really think that a little accuracy for 15 seconds out of every minute is keeping us in raids?? Be better off bringing another coercer for the troub illy grp than putting the ranger there.Sure you lose some dps but you gain the optimized dps of the coercers buffs and his own dps, but again, dps isn't like heals/tanking. All it means is that the fight is a smidge longer.....

Wigfeet

08-19-2009, 09:54 PM

Why pick on BRIGANDS ???? classes created worldwide, from most to least.Wizard-------------301501Berserker----------236620Shadowknight-------226727Necromancer--------221519Ranger-------------194134Fury---------------191461Gaurdian-----------183670Monk---------------180840Paladin------------174953Conjuror-----------165128Warden-------------164662Assasin------------164390Warlock------------163677Bruiser------------135315Dirge--------------123375Swashbuckler-------120261Templar------------110285Troubadour---------100431Illusionist---------99730Mystic--------------88249Inquisitor----------87865Defiler-------------84078Brigand-------------84067Coercer-------------81899

Coho1

08-20-2009, 05:06 PM

"talking to merged Brig and Swash " And what's a raid guild gonna do with 'extra" members?

Faeward

08-24-2009, 04:45 AM

On Nagafen, Brigands and Swashbucklers can raid together. This merging of classes is absolutely rediculous, if it goes ahead.

ChaoticHa

09-24-2009, 10:38 AM

I LOL'd IRL after reading a small tidbit of this.I only read up to the `fact` (lol?) that Brigand's are the worst DPS of the "4" scout classes (I'll just assume he meant dps, as he left out the bards it seems).Funny thing is, while grouped getting to MMIS, my raid leader said to the small group that was working towards the entrance "Just aim for 10k DPS and you'll be good". The Brigand in the group apparently decided to take that upon himself. He alone parsed 17k. One of the highest parses I've seen so far, and I play an Assassin.Cheers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />Edit:Quick note- He's gear was and still is normal. No crazy T4/Avie gear... he rocked mostly T3 and obviously Myth'd.

EasternKing

09-24-2009, 09:23 PM

<cite>ChaoticHand wrote:</cite><blockquote>I LOL'd IRL after reading a small tidbit of this.I only read up to the `fact` (lol?) that Brigand's are the worst DPS of the "4" scout classes (I'll just assume he meant dps, as he left out the bards it seems).Funny thing is, while grouped getting to MMIS, my raid leader said to the small group that was working towards the entrance "Just aim for 10k DPS and you'll be good". The Brigand in the group apparently decided to take that upon himself. He alone parsed 17k. One of the highest parses I've seen so far, and I play an Assassin.Cheers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />Edit:Quick note- He's gear was and still is normal. No crazy T4/Avie gear... he rocked mostly T3 and obviously Myth'd.</blockquote>Brigands have the lowest Dps potential of the FOUR DPS scouts, this is a fact, not wishful thinking, the parses never lie, ive yet to see any Brig reach, Swash/Assassin/Ranger dps in TSO.and srsly you seen a brigand beat you on content from Eof? in TSO, and thats your basis in fact is it for refuting the hard evidence of TSO raiding? thanks for that stellar contribution.ive hit 24k before now on crappy old world Eof raid mobs that have less than 250,000 hps, and you can beat that an equally geared, equally skilled Swash/Assassin/Ranger will beat that with ease.Go back to your sand pit, you clearly have no first hand knowlegde of current raid content and dps threseholds.

Prestissimo

10-02-2009, 07:45 AM

Chanters will also see a semi nerf, or they will see an even greater demand, depending on the limits put in place in the next expansion. TC and coercer's big spell (can't remember what it is off the top of my head) are theoretically going to be applicable across the entire raid at the rate of 1 per group (IE one illy can TC 4 people in raid, 1 per group, and if there is no limit to how many TCs per group, the will most likely be 6 illys per raid). Additionally, bard's buffs are theoretically going mostly raidwide. This of course means that with 2 of each bard you could have every bard buff going at once, and on the other side of the coin, bard mythicals will be worthless at that point if cob/potm go raidwide as well. Mythicals will be mostly useless unless theres an upgrade quest, but at least some like the massively overpowered Inq cure clickie will be usefull for a long long time.The problem with the games track history and progression is that it is oriented around the following key "strategies":<ul><li>add more hp to the mobs.</li><li>moar dps!1! makes everything moar fun/makes the mobs harder based on which side gets it...</li><li>add more control effects and drain more power if it's getting killed to easy, and if that doesn't work, add rediculous scripts that nuke everyone's pants off.</li><li>swing the nerf bat full blast in every direction (making sure to hit the paladin in the face at minimum every game update and ninja hit them in "maintainance patches" unless they notice aka gu53 amends + Holy Strike V) and as many other classes as you can justify as frequently as you can (as long as you don't hit the golden untouchable classes because soe likes to play favorites).</li></ul>Call me pessimistic, but since the development team has failed to disprove any of the above countless times that the opportunity was readily available and with the nerfs some classes have seen that where totally unmerrited, and the boosts that some classes got that were totally unmerrited while many issues remain broken for excessively long periods of time, and the repeated assurance that the staff is 100% commited to listening and not ignoring the playerbase... is it any wonder people are leaving the game and are upset?If the developers are dead set on this path for brigs, it would be very reasonable to at LEAST add debbufs cumulatively to defense + parry + deflection + dodge + more physical mit reductions to reinforce the fact that brigands are a powerful physical debuff class instead of being an overall powerfull debuff class.Edit: a note about the dps comment, slipperyx is a brigand (who is several years beyond overly infatuated with the parse) and often times tops the parse (I've seen him regularly hit 20k+ dps on tso encounters) even when in raids with very high parsing TSO raid guilds. Besides the fact that the parse is easily manipulateable to show false numbers by a multitude of different methods, the parse doesn't accurately reflect all influencing factors when making the averages. Because of the multitude of contributions each player makes besides JUST dps, I honestly don't think the parse truely carries as much value as alot of people put on it. I've seen wizards hit infinity damage countless times, and myself have done so even on my troubador and paladin. So, parses should be taken with a grain of salt and not be considered the end all dps comparison grounds that it seems to be established and considered as but rather used simply as a tool to compare your own performance from like fights and like situations and to track what did happen to analyse what happened within the heals, damage, buffs, power drain and regen, procs, hit rates, crits, absorptions and other negation effects, and all the other countless usefull things the parse can be used for rather than chalking the entirety of it's existance up to simply taking the sum of all damage output and dividing it by durration.

Darkor

10-05-2009, 06:14 AM

I have 2 issues. The first one is the removal of the magic debuffs and giving it to another class when theres clearly classes out there that have too much (enchanters). So instead of taking something from a chanter that usually is represented 4 times in a raid they take it from a brig who barely has 1 spot left in a raid.My second issue is the consolidation (sp?) of abilties with the swashbuckler class. They are on par and sometimes even higher than brigs on single target dps and totally destroy us on aoe dps. Now they also get our debuffs. What is the reason for staying a brig then when you can be a brig with aoe dps ---> Swashbuckler?This are my concerns.

EasternKing

10-05-2009, 09:29 PM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Edit: a note about the dps comment, slipperyx is a brigand (who is several years beyond overly infatuated with the parse) and often times tops the parse (I've seen him regularly hit 20k+ dps on tso encounters) even when in raids with very high parsing TSO raid guilds. </blockquote>grats, im a brigand and i can and have hit 26k before now in TSO on TSO mobs, what i cannot do though is beat a Swash, Ranger or Assassin on a ZW parse, meaning that no BRIG WW has beaten the top dps parses of the other 3 dps scouts, hell even a dirge managed to beat the best Brigand ZW parse by 2k,in other words stop talking about something you clearly have no comprehension of, anyone that trys to argue that Brigand dps is inline, there buffs, hate gen, and AA's are inline with the other 3 dps scouts needs to stop taking drugs, and get back in touch with reality.

Darkor

10-06-2009, 05:06 AM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Edit: a note about the dps comment, slipperyx is a brigand (who is several years beyond overly infatuated with the parse) and often times tops the parse (I've seen him regularly hit 20k+ dps on tso encounters) even when in raids with very high parsing TSO raid guilds. </blockquote>grats, im a brigand and i can and have hit 26k before now in TSO on TSO mobs, what i cannot do though is beat a Swash, Ranger or Assassin on a ZW parse, meaning that no BRIG WW has beaten the top dps parses of the other 3 dps scouts, hell even a dirge managed to beat the best Brigand ZW parse by 2k,in other words stop talking about something you clearly have no comprehension of, anyone that trys to argue that Brigand dps is inline, there buffs, hate gen, and AA's are inline with the other 3 dps scouts needs to stop taking drugs, and get back in touch with reality.</blockquote>QFRthis is exactly what people do not understand. Ofcourse brigs can parse 20k+. The only problem then is that the other 3 scout dps classes in the same guild parse HIGHER than that. This is not about the best zw parsing brig but more about all other 3 scout dps classes parsing higher. I do not believe its right that a swashy should be higher on a single mob parse and totally destroy us on 3+ encounter.

Lethe5683

10-06-2009, 07:42 PM

I don't know what more sad, the fact that they are nerfing an already underpowered class or the fact that they think they can fix summoners with such a stupid band-aid patch.

Faeward

12-04-2009, 10:07 AM

9 pages of complaints, they would be silly to implement these proposed changes! I think people would give up hope.

Meirril

12-04-2009, 10:50 AM

Well, nobody is going to read this but I was just thinking. If the spell debuff components are removed from Brigand debuffs and given to summoners, this might lead to casters going away.Raids tend to bring one brigand. If Brig's debuffs are broken up between Brigs and say both summoners get the same debuffs that doesn't create an extra slot in the raid. It just means you have to ask who to get rid of. But instead of loosing a utility or a tier 1 DPS class to add both a Brig and a summoner what if there was a better solution? Instead of watering down your DPS, what if you finally concluded that int casters wern't worth bringing for most raids? What if you trimmed all the non-enchanter int casters from your raid? Now Brigs can debuff for all the tier 1 DPS you brought. Sure, you loose a little bit over the old set up due to the 4 enchanters not getting their full debuffs but you had to make a hard choice and you think you made the best one.Right now, melee dps has an advantage unless a raid NEEDS spell dps because of the mob. I see this as further driving that point home. This isn't helping Summoners as much as its hurting int casters.I agree with the OP. Buff summoners so that they double up with some of the utility class's abilities so you can sub a summoner in for a bard or enchanter. If they become viable to fill that role, then they'll get 2 or 3 of those 8 slots the utilities are getting. All it would really take is a group power buff and one more group or raid buff and they would be fine. Maybe a new pet that is weaker but does something to buff the group? Like a pet that evens out the mana pools in a group? Or a pet that has a 50% chance of sacrificing itself to heal someone in the group that is about to die?