POLL WHERE SHOULD THE MONK CLASS GO [Archive]

scalzo

06-22-2009, 12:48 AM

How many times do you use invis really? I never use it. It is not even on my hot bar. Why use it when you have FD? Hello run past mobs and FD. Not that hard. Invis just slows me down and 90% of the mobs see through it anyway. It is a useless ability please get rid of this and gimme something I can use.As for group FD highly situational. It hardly ever works in raid because the mob will AE, killing your group anyway most of the time. Grouping I rarely use it unless I get a crap load of adds that I cannot handle = very rare, or I am exploiting and sneaking a group past something your not really suppose to do. Again I would prefer another AE taunt or an AE combat art to replace group FD.Haste we have too much of it. Try and balance this out. I like the idea of giving us a flurry proc. Our proc hate.Since you give the Monk class so many tools to peel aggro now ( Peel, Rescue, Hidden Openings, Sneering Assault ) how about making our Dragon Rage proc on missing the Monk instead of us having to hit the mob to proc it. This would probably help alot on AE tanking. Since we are suppose to avoid attacks this seems to make sense.Instill Panic again situational. Not used often. Would prefer this replaced with something more useful. Monks are not suppose to be scary. Sounds good for a Shadow Knight really.Also for all fighters please gives us some AA's to resist fear. I know knights get it on their AA tree, but what about the other fighters? What kind of Monk would show fear? Instead of an Instill Panic how about a Remove Panic LOL?

BChizzle

06-22-2009, 12:59 AM

Here is what a monk should do. This is our fail Avatar of Growth fight from a few days ago, at around the 1 minute mark you will see the MT go down and a monk as a tank jumps in and takes over.<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMgL39LHu4" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMgL39LHu4</a>Obviously the choice for MT is always going to be a guardian and I think that is right, but I can step in and tank anything if the guard is not around (I have tanked Ykesha several times as well as Justice among other things) and the difference really shouldn't be that noticable. We are tanks plain and simple. Monks need some help in the areas of agro generation and damage spike management but otherwise the class is fun to play, able to do what it is supposed to do and do it well. I'd like some kind of group buff though, I could care less about group fd it is the most useless spell in eq2.

circusgirl

06-22-2009, 12:59 AM

The whole having dragon rage proc on avoids thing has been suggested many times, but the truth of the matter is its really not a good idea. If that were the case, we would trade out having difficulty holding aggro on AE mobs for having difficulty holding aggro on higher level mobs. Remember, any mob that is a higher level than you starts to ignore your avoidance, which means we'd proc that hate less and less often the harder the content that we were facing was. BAD IDEA.As for fear resists, personally I would rather see the different tank archetypes each be given a unique immunity. For example, crusaders get fear immunity, warriors get knockback immunity, brawlers get stun immunity. This would improve each of the three types of tanks while maintaining uniqueness and giving the devs the opportunity to program certain fights for different types of tanks, which enhances diversity and makes things more interesting, instead of less homogenous.

Siatfallen

06-22-2009, 08:03 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is what a monk should do. This is our fail Avatar of Growth fight from a few days ago, at around the 1 minute mark you will see the MT go down and a monk as a tank jumps in and takes over.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMgL39LHu4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMgL39LHu4</a>Obviously the choice for MT is always going to be a guardian and I think that is right, but I can step in and tank anything if the guard is not around (I have tanked Ykesha several times as well as Justice among other things) and the difference really shouldn't be that noticable. We are tanks plain and simple. Monks need some help in the areas of agro generation and damage spike management but otherwise the class is fun to play, able to do what it is supposed to do and do it well. I'd like some kind of group buff though, I could care less about group fd it is the most useless spell in eq2.</blockquote>Alright, I've not been playing much for the last long while, but what prevents other fighters from taking up this role, doing it better than us, and outDPSing us while they're in offensive stance?

lavrence

06-22-2009, 10:41 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is what a monk should do. This is our fail Avatar of Growth fight from a few days ago, at around the 1 minute mark you will see the MT go down and a monk as a tank jumps in and takes over.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMgL39LHu4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMgL39LHu4</a>Obviously the choice for MT is always going to be a guardian and I think that is right, but I can step in and tank anything if the guard is not around (I have tanked Ykesha several times as well as Justice among other things) and the difference really shouldn't be that noticable. We are tanks plain and simple. Monks need some help in the areas of agro generation and damage spike management but otherwise the class is fun to play, able to do what it is supposed to do and do it well. I'd like some kind of group buff though, I could care less about group fd it is the most useless spell in eq2.</blockquote>Alright, I've not been playing much for the last long while, but what prevents other fighters from taking up this role, doing it better than us, and outDPSing us while they're in offensive stance?</blockquote>Monks can pick up aggro on a single target faster than most any other fighter, i have pulled aggro off of a paladin for example, WITH amends on me. I want to be undisputedly the best at something, offtanking would be a perfect thing to be the best class for. It would allow us to DPS when needed fulfilling the disires of those monks out there that do not want to tank, would allow us to tank all single group content (not that we cant as is) and still have a slot in raids.~~Lavrence Starleaf~~~~80 Monk~~

BChizzle

06-22-2009, 02:33 PM

<cite>lavrence wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is what a monk should do. This is our fail Avatar of Growth fight from a few days ago, at around the 1 minute mark you will see the MT go down and a monk as a tank jumps in and takes over.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMgL39LHu4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMgL39LHu4</a>Obviously the choice for MT is always going to be a guardian and I think that is right, but I can step in and tank anything if the guard is not around (I have tanked Ykesha several times as well as Justice among other things) and the difference really shouldn't be that noticable. We are tanks plain and simple. Monks need some help in the areas of agro generation and damage spike management but otherwise the class is fun to play, able to do what it is supposed to do and do it well. I'd like some kind of group buff though, I could care less about group fd it is the most useless spell in eq2.</blockquote>Alright, I've not been playing much for the last long while, but what prevents other fighters from taking up this role, doing it better than us, and outDPSing us while they're in offensive stance?</blockquote>Monks can pick up aggro on a single target faster than most any other fighter, i have pulled aggro off of a paladin for example, WITH amends on me. I want to be undisputedly the best at something, offtanking would be a perfect thing to be the best class for. It would allow us to DPS when needed fulfilling the disires of those monks out there that do not want to tank, would allow us to tank all single group content (not that we cant as is) and still have a slot in raids.~~Lavrence Starleaf~~~~80 Monk~~</blockquote>We are horrible as off tanks as our AE agro generation is absolutely horrible and most off tanks have to pick up groups of adds. We need to be as effective as other tanks period not as some sort of off tank role, we need to be able to main tank when needed. If we are single target tanks that is great but we need to be better at single target tanking then an ae tank which is absolutely not the current situation. As far as dps goes we are actually fine where it currently is, if anything some of the other tanks probably need a boost dps wise to catch us.

Szkeet

06-22-2009, 04:31 PM

They say monks are supposed to be one of the hardest-to-hit classes. How? They dont give us gear to help us, our abilities to help, we cant use without stunning ourselves, or waiting 3 minutes to avoid 8 seconds worth of damage. If we are supposed to be as good as they say. Why not help us? I say they should give us abilities to use whenever we dodge/parry/etc, to do additional DPS. i.e mocking blow, etc.

scalzo

06-22-2009, 08:33 PM

We are fighters thus we are tanks. If you want DPS/utility go roll a Swashy, Assassin, Ranger, Brigand, or a Bard. There is your DPS/utility classes. Get ride of the useless utility and give us more DPS/tanking options. We are DPS tanks like it or not.

Lizzoraus

06-23-2009, 11:45 PM

DPS Class with the ability to Off-Tank. Kinda what it is now the class just needs a bit of tweaking.

Rotate

06-24-2009, 01:49 AM

scout dps with the ability to temporary tank on raids. not MT but temp tank for a few if mt goes down(we currently have), and ability to tank in instances( aoe agro control). We dont need utility we are monks! I want monks to be more like the monk class in eq1! We are leather you cant expect to MT a raid mob end game. Yes tank trivial raid mobs.. but not endgame stuff.

circusgirl

06-24-2009, 12:52 PM

Personally I'm sick and tired of the whole ''you're leather, obviously you shouldn't be able to tank anything.'' Its as ridiculous as saying ''you wear platemail, therefore you should have 0 avoidance.'' The game isn't always realistic, get over it. Monks are fighters, fighters are tanks. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

scalzo

06-24-2009, 09:04 PM

Rotate

06-24-2009, 09:53 PM

If you wanted plate mit and to be a main tank on raids you should of made a guard. Atm monks can tank fine. There is nothing wrong with monk tanking atm.. i would love 40% heal on meditative healing but eh. But monks tank instances fine.. off tank on raids decent they just arnt mt's. If u are having trouble staying up in instances get new healers. I dont expect to get plate mit and dont want it.. we would be to overpowered. Are tankin is fine we lacking in dps. We are the dps fighters, Not the main tank fighters.I tank all instances in offensive stance cuz i always compete for highest parse in group. I have tanked all of palace isntance including varsoon with 1 healer. Make a good group and you can do any instance. We arnt as good of tanks as the plate tanks but we shouldnt be. We should be better dps then all of them tho. and i not talkin a 500-1k dps differnce cuz that doesnt make up our lack of tanking. We need a dps boost! Are tanking is prefectly fine for what it is.

BChizzle

06-25-2009, 12:20 AM

<cite>Rotate@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you wanted plate mit and to be a main tank on raids you should of made a guard. Atm monks can tank fine. There is nothing wrong with monk tanking atm.. i would love 40% heal on meditative healing but eh. But monks tank instances fine.. off tank on raids decent they just arnt mt's. If u are having trouble staying up in instances get new healers. I dont expect to get plate mit and dont want it.. we would be to overpowered. Are tankin is fine we lacking in dps. We are the dps fighters, Not the main tank fighters.I tank all instances in offensive stance cuz i always compete for highest parse in group. I have tanked all of palace isntance including varsoon with 1 healer. Make a good group and you can do any instance. We arnt as good of tanks as the plate tanks but we shouldnt be. We should be better dps then all of them tho. and i not talkin a 500-1k dps differnce cuz that doesnt make up our lack of tanking. We need a dps boost! Are tanking is prefectly fine for what it is.</blockquote>LOL people like this is what creates the problems in the first place. I swear if you wanted to be a scout you should have roled a scout, sorry you weren't smart enough when you picked your class to realize fighters are tanks. Please just do us all a favour and delete your monk.

scalzo

06-25-2009, 12:36 AM

<cite>Rotate@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you wanted plate mit and to be a main tank on raids you should of made a guard. Atm monks can tank fine. There is nothing wrong with monk tanking atm.. i would love 40% heal on meditative healing but eh. But monks tank instances fine.. off tank on raids decent they just arnt mt's. If u are having trouble staying up in instances get new healers. I dont expect to get plate mit and dont want it.. we would be to overpowered. Are tankin is fine we lacking in dps. We are the dps fighters, Not the main tank fighters.I tank all instances in offensive stance cuz i always compete for highest parse in group. I have tanked all of palace isntance including varsoon with 1 healer. Make a good group and you can do any instance. We arnt as good of tanks as the plate tanks but we shouldnt be. We should be better dps then all of them tho. and i not talkin a 500-1k dps differnce cuz that doesnt make up our lack of tanking. We need a dps boost! Are tanking is prefectly fine for what it is.</blockquote>Well since they wear plate, have almost equal avoidance, and can out parse us brawlers don't you think we should get a mitigation boost? SoE wants balance they don't care that a Shadow Knight is out dpsing Brawlers. Since they want balance I want the Shadow Knights mitigation then. Bring it to balance or increase my dps. Do not make one class superior to another. Gimme more DPS or gimme more mitigation. Screw utility. Like I said if you want dps/utility you need to go make a scout NOW. We are dps/tanks.

Rotate

06-25-2009, 12:50 AM

picture this.. on raids brawler sitting at 90 % + avoidance or in isntannce group.. and same mit as a guard.. and we do more dps then a guard.. we have a few tricks staying alive threw spike damage. We would be able to solo some named really easy i have 75 avoidance in offen stance and like 85 in def. solo.. now if i had plate mit i would be extreamly op. Like i said before if u cant currently tank now as a monk you are probly doing something wrong.Go to charater creat read what it says for a monk and read what it says for a guard then tell me.. who soe intended to be a mt.We are dps fighter.. always have been in eq1 monks were good dps fighters. You peeps that want plate mit are unrealistic.We are fighters so yes we can tank. but not as good as the plate fighters on raid. I can out tank most plate fighters in isntances. When it comes to raids tho they tank better. Our tanking is fine atm we just lack the edge of dps over most of the other plate tanks. You peeps wanna take a guardians job as a mt? what would a guardian do lol.. get real.Monks need dps bump and aoe agro control. Becuse more and more isntances are group encounters.

Lizzoraus

06-25-2009, 01:00 AM

<cite>Rotate@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks need dps bump and aoe agro control. Becuse more and more isntances are group encounters.</blockquote>More aoe would be nice.

Siatfallen

06-25-2009, 01:22 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally I'm sick and tired of the whole ''you're leather, obviously you shouldn't be able to tank anything.'' Its as ridiculous as saying ''you wear platemail, therefore you should have 0 avoidance.'' The game isn't always realistic, get over it. Monks are fighters, fighters are tanks. End of story as far as I'm concerned.</blockquote>Both sides of the argument saying "this is how it should obviously be" are shortsighted, it's fairly obvious. Take BChizzle's statement below your own, strike out "scout", insert tank. Add "plate" before "fighter" and viola. New statement, making as much sense as the first.The game is not realistic - but then, how is plate = 0 avoidance remotely realistic? Try putting on plate armor designed to fit you and run about for a while imo. It is thoroughly possible, though adjustments obviously have to be made (and this is before the ever intrusive effects of magic are even considered). Some mobility and manual dexterity is lost, but I think you'd be shocked to find how little. Leather = pretty [Removed for Content] sucky mit is very realistic, though; a few cutting (and especially thrusting) tests will prove that point easily. Hence, while game != realism, granted, the internal logic of your argument is somewhat flawed.The monk class has never been an ideal raid tank. In other words, the stance you're promoting - while I can see the sensible side of it - is new, and is hence the uphill endeavour.Yes, granted, SoE tried making us tanks this expansion. Result: Universal acceptance that monks are now about as useful as summoners and druids on raids. Which, all said and done, is a rather huge loss compared to before.The reason for this situation? To me it seems obvious that the developers have been trying to press the brawler classes into roles that, really, the class does not naturally lend itself to (obviously they control the mechanics and could make it happen; I'm talking class balance dynamics here); they've done a shabby job of it because doing otherwise would step on the toes of "the real raid tanks".24 classes = balance problems. EQ2 business as usual tbh.

Couching

06-25-2009, 02:05 AM

When I read the idea of monk is dps fighter, so we should be worse in tanking than plate tank makes me laugh hard.The fact is, monk didn't get anything over other fighters in dps; same auto attack modifier, almost same CA damage and worst in aoe dps. It's nonsense to keep saying brawler is dps fighter when zerker and sk have significantly better aoe dps and almost the same dps on single target.When I read that we are good in tanking group instances makes me laugh even harder.We are not fine at all comparing to dps plate tanks-sk and zerker for tanking group instances. Their zw dps can be 1.5+ times better than similar geared monk, not to say they can hold much better aoe aggro so that their group dps can be better as well. Sk and zerker are also dps fighters and they have higher dps/ survivability on daily heroic instances and better survivability in raids. If you think it's balanced, I am totally against it.

Rotate

06-25-2009, 02:23 AM

thats why i said we need a dps boost and some aoe agro controll for group instances... plate mit is unreasonable..

Couching

06-25-2009, 02:28 AM

I don't think we want plate mit. What we want is equal survivability instead of equal mit.

scalzo

06-25-2009, 02:28 AM

I am not asking to be the raid MT. There are Monks that do it. What I am asking is that they increase brawler dps. In no way should a plate tank out dps a brawler. Hell I feel a Brawler in Defensive Stance should still out dps a plate tank. We have plate tanks out dpsing us atm if your not blind to the fact. So again I will say increase brawler dps or increase our mitigation. Bring balance.

Aull

06-26-2009, 10:32 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I read the idea of monk is dps fighter, so we should be worse in tanking than plate tank makes me laugh hard.The fact is, monk didn't get anything over other fighters in dps; same auto attack modifier, almost same CA damage and worst in aoe dps. It's nonsense to keep saying brawler is dps fighter when zerker and sk have significantly better aoe dps and almost the same dps on single target.When I read that we are good in tanking group instances makes me laugh even harder.We are not fine at all comparing to dps plate tanks-sk and zerker for tanking group instances. Their zw dps can be 1.5+ times better than similar geared monk, not to say they can hold much better aoe aggro so that their group dps can be better as well. Sk and zerker are also dps fighters and they have higher dps/ survivability on daily heroic instances and better survivability in raids. If you think it's balanced, I am totally against it. </blockquote>I have to agree with Couching on this. Yes monks and bruisers are fighters but why in the @#$$ were both brawlers given an aa deaggro choice? The other fighters did not get that type of choice. Again brawler's had better dps potential, but now this aa deaggro choice is a waste of points.Back in the day brawlers actually had much better dps than the plates, but now currently it is not the case. Please read Coughing's last paragraph cause it is on the money. I can't believe that more brawlers are not witnessing this in the end game. So no I am not satisfied with the current monk and bruiser dps vs the survival and dps of the zerker and sk.

Glip

06-27-2009, 01:13 AM

<cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are fighters thus we are tanks. If you want DPS/utility go roll a Swashy, Assassin, Ranger, Brigand, or a Bard. There is your DPS/utility classes. Get ride of the useless utility and give us more DPS/tanking options. We are DPS tanks like it or not.</blockquote>Seriously, will you shut up? Everythingthat has come out of your mouth has been nonsense. YOU don't use invis so drop it? This isn't about YOU it's about the majority. I lost count how many times I've saved a group with group FD. Ever think maybe you just aren't good at playing a monk? When I choose Monk it was clear what I was. I was never meant to be a true tank. I was an off tank or emergency tank with DPS and utility. That's why I chose the class and that's how I played it. We have never been tanks in the full sense of the word... ever. They just lumped us in there. So stop going around trying to state your opinion as the last word and let the conversation continue. If you see someone write something you don't like, suck it up and stop trying to argue with everyone

BChizzle

06-27-2009, 04:02 AM

<cite>Asokio@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are fighters thus we are tanks. If you want DPS/utility go roll a Swashy, Assassin, Ranger, Brigand, or a Bard. There is your DPS/utility classes. Get ride of the useless utility and give us more DPS/tanking options. We are DPS tanks like it or not.</blockquote>Seriously, will you shut up? Everythingthat has come out of your mouth has been nonsense. YOU don't use invis so drop it? This isn't about YOU it's about the majority. I lost count how many times I've saved a group with group FD. Ever think maybe you just aren't good at playing a monk? When I choose Monk it was clear what I was. I was never meant to be a true tank. I was an off tank or emergency tank with DPS and utility. That's why I chose the class and that's how I played it. We have never been tanks in the full sense of the word... ever. They just lumped us in there. So stop going around trying to state your opinion as the last word and let the conversation continue. If you see someone write something you don't like, suck it up and stop trying to argue with everyone</blockquote>Wrong when this game started and had a level cap of 50 monks were one of the best choices for tanking, we have been good tanks in the past and that is what our role is.

circusgirl

06-27-2009, 04:45 PM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally I'm sick and tired of the whole ''you're leather, obviously you shouldn't be able to tank anything.'' Its as ridiculous as saying ''you wear platemail, therefore you should have 0 avoidance.'' The game isn't always realistic, get over it. Monks are fighters, fighters are tanks. End of story as far as I'm concerned.</blockquote>Both sides of the argument saying "this is how it should obviously be" are shortsighted, it's fairly obvious. Take BChizzle's statement below your own, strike out "scout", insert tank. Add "plate" before "fighter" and viola. New statement, making as much sense as the first.The game is not realistic - but then, how is plate = 0 avoidance remotely realistic? Try putting on plate armor designed to fit you and run about for a while imo. It is thoroughly possible, though adjustments obviously have to be made (and this is before the ever intrusive effects of magic are even considered). Some mobility and manual dexterity is lost, but I think you'd be shocked to find how little. Leather = pretty [Removed for Content] sucky mit is very realistic, though; a few cutting (and especially thrusting) tests will prove that point easily. Hence, while game != realism, granted, the internal logic of your argument is somewhat flawed.The monk class has never been an ideal raid tank. In other words, the stance you're promoting - while I can see the sensible side of it - is new, and is hence the uphill endeavour.Yes, granted, SoE tried making us tanks this expansion. Result: Universal acceptance that monks are now about as useful as summoners and druids on raids. Which, all said and done, is a rather huge loss compared to before.The reason for this situation? To me it seems obvious that the developers have been trying to press the brawler classes into roles that, really, the class does not naturally lend itself to (obviously they control the mechanics and could make it happen; I'm talking class balance dynamics here); they've done a shabby job of it because doing otherwise would step on the toes of "the real raid tanks".24 classes = balance problems. EQ2 business as usual tbh.</blockquote>By the by--the armor that people actually used when they were fighting was chainmail.Plate armor was basically only ever used to have a couple people help you onto a horse, hand you a big stick, and had just enough flexibility for you to sit up straight while your horse charged someone else. It is NOT practical--but thats not the point. I'm not saying plate tanks should have 0 avoidance, I'm saying that that whole line of argument is ludicrous.

Fwedewi

06-28-2009, 12:44 AM

What I propose is a buff that affects all allies within melee range that gives them a % chance to have incoming physical attacks deflected by us and will increase our hate every time we deflect in this way. Ideally this should also work on ourselves giving us that extra avoidance that plate tanks don't get.Now how would this affect us when tanking? Extra aggro on anything nearby that is currently attacking someone else, any group wards wouldn't be used up by our allies as fast.When offtanking? We'd be stood near the MT adding to his defence and ready to take over if he goes down and if mobs get loose we're already gaining aggro on themThis would make us different to other tanks in the way we manage aggro and would be more in line with the way you would expect a monk to behave (defending others rather than hacking wildly at the enemy and shouting obscenities at them).

Gortha

06-28-2009, 05:21 PM

I think the disagreement shown in this thread is really the root of the problem - there are several views on what a monk is/should be... personally, I think the devs should tune our abilities in a way that lets the player decide his/her role - if you want to MT, there should be a viable spec for it, if you want to be dps/utility, you should be able to spec yourself to fit that role too.to me, that is the cool thing about the monk - VERSATILITY - we should be able to fit multiple roles in multiple situations, not be a 1 trick pony.I originally picked the monk because it had the best combination of skills for my playstyle - I solo 80% of the time and I use FD and Invis constantly, and dislike tanking in groups/raids... I prefer exploration and love being able to get into places no one else can get to for collections and location dings....but when I get into a fight, I need to be able to hold my own... I realize that the way I play is not for everyone, we all have our own vision of what a monk is - thats great, we should!now the devs need to make it possible for us all to be what we want... the versatility to fit whatever role is desired.

scalzo

06-29-2009, 04:27 AM

<cite>Asokio@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are fighters thus we are tanks. If you want DPS/utility go roll a Swashy, Assassin, Ranger, Brigand, or a Bard. There is your DPS/utility classes. Get ride of the useless utility and give us more DPS/tanking options. We are DPS tanks like it or not.</blockquote>Seriously, will you shut up? Everythingthat has come out of your mouth has been nonsense. YOU don't use invis so drop it? This isn't about YOU it's about the majority. I lost count how many times I've saved a group with group FD. Ever think maybe you just aren't good at playing a monk? When I choose Monk it was clear what I was. I was never meant to be a true tank. I was an off tank or emergency tank with DPS and utility. That's why I chose the class and that's how I played it. We have never been tanks in the full sense of the word... ever. They just lumped us in there. So stop going around trying to state your opinion as the last word and let the conversation continue. If you see someone write something you don't like, suck it up and stop trying to argue with everyone</blockquote>Seriously I wish you would quit playing a monk. You are clearly a wannabe scout. I tank groups all the time. It is people probably like yourself that give us brawlers a bad name when it comes to tanking. You want invisabilty then go play a scout OK.I bet most people that really play a brawler agrees with me. Monks are fighters, fighters are tanks. If not then why don't you cry to the devs and have them move the class to scout where your better suited at playing OK.

NeVeRLi

06-29-2009, 09:25 PM

Coming back to the game after a very long break...I would just like to add that I agree with the comments and posts saying the player should beable to spec and choose how they want their monk to be.Yes no matter what the spec the monk is still gonna be what it is at the core, but the spec could really drive home the players choice to tank or dps or middle of the road.Really is sad, but even after 4yrs now the same problems are still there for the monk class and one the very reasons I stopped playing the game in the first place.

Errolflynn

06-30-2009, 08:18 AM

Monks should be Tanks, my Monk is an alt, I enjoy tanking on her. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Apart from large multi mob encounters. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />If I want to DPS I'll play my Swash or Warlock.

Morrolan V

06-30-2009, 12:06 PM

Monks are tanks. Nobody wants that to change.The question really is - what are the intended and/or primary roles for monks in various settings?Groups - tanking is our primary role now. Frankly, any group with two fighters in it is not optimal. If I am in full DPS spec and gear, with good buffs, I can do about 75-80% of the single target DPS of our top brigand (with nothing like the debuff utility, of course). And on multiple mob encounters, our swash will pwn me, of course. On the other hand, I can tank any heroic content in the game. Not as easily as an SK or Paladin (particularly on big group encounters), but it can readily be done.The major problem with Monks as tanks on heroic content is not at the high end. It's at "entry level". A plate tank in T2 shard armor is a MUCH more effective tank than a similarly equipped monk. The gap closes with raid gear because the plate tanks are pushing so far into diminishing returns while we are still working up the curves.So, at present, we should view our primary group role as tanking. I would like to see: (1) our uncontested avoidance and other abilities increased substantially with heroic gear so that we can compete with similarly equipped plate tanks and (2) a significant bump to our DPS or utility in DPS mode so that we are more competitive in a support role. (With 6 in group, it's hard to give up a 25% or more dps in one slot.)Raids - Our primary role now is . . . uhh. Fourth tank, DPS, MT damage preventer? In all honesty, there is not a compelling reason to take either brawler on a raid right now in place of a T1 DPS or a second/third swash or brig. Very well geared monks can tank most of the instanced raid content, but, let's be honest, it's a hairier, less efficient experience than with ANY plate tank (save possibly guard, due to hate issues). Once again, on the DPS side, we are 25% or more behind competitive classes. We have no appreciable DPS advantage over similarly geared and buffed, DPS specced plate fighters.So, what do we want it to be? Where do we want to compete for roles in a raid? MT? Fine, but, I have said it over and over again - having six classes competing for one slot in a raid is four or five too many. I would like to see a balanced combination of spec and gear that would allow monks to be competitive MTs, but I think there MUST be at least one other role we can viably fill on a competitive basis. I would prefer that role be DPS nearly on par with rogues, with enough utilty (raid buff, avoidance lend, snap aggro/emergency recovery) to balance out the debuffs we don't have.At the end of the day, I DO NOT want to see monks get made into generic fighters. I rolled a monk becuase I wanted to be the hardest hitting fighter - fully understaning that I was giving up the survivability and aggro control edge to plate tanks. I want to continue to be able to fill that role. That means giving us a significant DPS bump relative to other fighters. The situation as it stands it totally unacceptable, of course, as we are taking the survivability hit and not seeing the corresponding DPS advantage.

fre'do

06-30-2009, 06:31 PM

<passes Gorthaur a mug of ale.> Finally another who thinks like me. For the poll we are fine and we dont have to go anywhere. Just make us more versatile.

scalzo

06-30-2009, 08:43 PM

Agreed I feel Monks should not be the raids MT, but the class should be able to come in and survive if the MT goes due to all the aggro tools they give us. As in groups we should be given a more viable roll. You know how many groups I have made and then a person asks who is the MT? They learn otherwise when we are done and I tanked the instances. But this happens too often. Too many people in the class either won't or cannot tank. This ruins it for people that really know how to play the class when trying to get into groups. Also hilarious when I form a group and ask for dps I get a monk sending me a tell. I always tell them you are a tank. I wish this would stop.

Jenguro

07-01-2009, 04:15 AM

Rythalian - I enjoyed your post and agree with your points. I have a 54 Monk that I plan to be my next primary alt, and what you described is what I had anticipated him to be. I think the Monk's attractiveness is his *versatility*, the ability to do several things depending on the circumstance, whether soloing, group tanking, or raid dpsing. I particularly like the idea of a significantly boosted offensive and defensive stance, so that you can switch roles easily depending on what's needed. I would also like to see a boost to raid utility, the melee and casting speed buff is a step in the right direction, but not significant enough to warrant a place in most raids.

Blu

07-01-2009, 07:37 PM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks are tanks. Nobody wants that to change.The question really is - what are the intended and/or primary roles for monks in various settings?Groups - tanking is our primary role now. Frankly, any group with two fighters in it is not optimal. If I am in full DPS spec and gear, with good buffs, I can do about 75-80% of the single target DPS of our top brigand (with nothing like the debuff utility, of course). And on multiple mob encounters, our swash will pwn me, of course. On the other hand, I can tank any heroic content in the game. Not as easily as an SK or Paladin (particularly on big group encounters), but it can readily be done.The major problem with Monks as tanks on heroic content is not at the high end. It's at "entry level". A plate tank in T2 shard armor is a MUCH more effective tank than a similarly equipped monk. The gap closes with raid gear because the plate tanks are pushing so far into diminishing returns while we are still working up the curves.So, at present, we should view our primary group role as tanking. I would like to see: (1) our uncontested avoidance and other abilities increased substantially with heroic gear so that we can compete with similarly equipped plate tanks and (2) a significant bump to our DPS or utility in DPS mode so that we are more competitive in a support role. (With 6 in group, it's hard to give up a 25% or more dps in one slot.)Raids - Our primary role now is . . . uhh. Fourth tank, DPS, MT damage preventer? In all honesty, there is not a compelling reason to take either brawler on a raid right now in place of a T1 DPS or a second/third swash or brig. Very well geared monks can tank most of the instanced raid content, but, let's be honest, it's a hairier, less efficient experience than with ANY plate tank (save possibly guard, due to hate issues). Once again, on the DPS side, we are 25% or more behind competitive classes. We have no appreciable DPS advantage over similarly geared and buffed, DPS specced plate fighters.So, what do we want it to be? Where do we want to compete for roles in a raid? MT? Fine, but, I have said it over and over again - having six classes competing for one slot in a raid is four or five too many. I would like to see a balanced combination of spec and gear that would allow monks to be competitive MTs, but I think there MUST be at least one other role we can viably fill on a competitive basis. I would prefer that role be DPS nearly on par with rogues, with enough utilty (raid buff, avoidance lend, snap aggro/emergency recovery) to balance out the debuffs we don't have.At the end of the day, I DO NOT want to see monks get made into generic fighters. I rolled a monk becuase I wanted to be the hardest hitting fighter - fully understaning that I was giving up the survivability and aggro control edge to plate tanks. I want to continue to be able to fill that role. That means giving us a significant DPS bump relative to other fighters. The situation as it stands it totally unacceptable, of course, as we are taking the survivability hit and not seeing the corresponding DPS advantage.</blockquote>QFEBest analysis I've seen yet. I appreciate that you don't discount the "entry-level" situation even though it may not apply to you. Personally, I find this space very frustrating... my class shouldn't need greater-than-heroic gear to be effective (for any purpose) in heroic content.I prefer to DPS, personally, but no one would chose me for that if there's almost any other dps class available. What I mainly get chosen for in instance groups is tank, and only because no plate tanks are available. It's not an enjoyable situation to be gimped at one's typical group role. When I get hit, I get hit hard due to low (for a tank) mitigation, and this is compounded by the streaky nature of avoidance (with 75% avoidance, it's still likely that I'll get hit many times in a row). Some healers enjoy the challenges that brawler tanks bring, but most instance PUGs are just there to get the job done, and such inefficiency is not desired.Something needs to be done about this, IMO.

Rotate

07-02-2009, 05:24 AM

<cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agreed I feel Monks should not be the raids MT, but the class should be able to come in and survive if the MT goes due to all the aggro tools they give us. As in groups we should be given a more viable roll. You know how many groups I have made and then a person asks who is the MT? They learn otherwise when we are done and I tanked the instances. But this happens too often. Too many people in the class either won't or cannot tank. This ruins it for people that really know how to play the class when trying to get into groups. Also hilarious when I form a group and ask for dps I get a monk sending me a tell. I always tell them you are a tank. I wish this would stop.</blockquote>Atm a raid geared monk can come in and survive if the mt goes down. Well atleast in my guilds progressions so far. We have two raid brawlers in our guild. We have both off tanked zarrakon adds and penta's adds. He is the brusierr i am the monk. I dont see what currently is wrong with our raid tanking ability. Now if soe wants us to be MT's yes they will have to buff up our tanking ability. But as it stands MT goes down on gynok i can pick him up and tank him until mt is rebuffed and ready to go.I said i want a dps increase for raiding becuse i wanna be more useful on the raid instead of just being an ohsh..t offtank.Atm pallys can rez on raids.. heal on raids ward on raids, and amends a target so it can blow the hell out of soemthing without agro worries.Sk's can buff a mage groups dps pretty [Removed for Content] good and mt and w/e else they do lol besides being OP atm.Zerkers they raid wide power regen? LOL dunno why but ehh they get it as i found out lastnight haha. The get nice dps buffs and stuff for there group.Brawlers can ? fd.. and we do same dps as all those other listed fighters sooo ummm.. wich would you bring.. i know we get our raid wide buff but i dont think its reason enough to bring us on a raid.So rouges can debuff and stuff, and dps! i wanna be able to offtank and DPS.. so why not give us rouge dps?I really dunno what soe is gunna do with us.. Maybe they should just go back to one warrior class and one brawler class. and leave two sk and pal, like in eq1 =p. might make it easyier to balace stuff /shrug.I can tell ya one thing tho.. i dont wanna be standing next to a Guardian and sk in guild hall and only differnce between all our class's is the class title in guild window.. He look we all have the same mit.. we all have the same avoidance.. we all do the same dps.. arnt we great we are blanced hehe.I wanna scraifice tanking ability for DPS!!!! thats why i made a monk to be able to tank, but also be able to dps!If anyone made a monk thinking, Hey wich fighter should i chose.. i wanna be a raid mt.. well i like how the monk looks in that gi so i am gunna pick him for looks. But he is a fighter thats all i care about so soe make me a MT now!...As someone said before brigs can tank instances and so can swashies.. Just cuz they are rouge dps doesnt mean they cant tank, same goes with monk, just cuz we are fighters doesnt mean we are limited to that roll we should be able to be the top dps'n fighter and fill that roll as well.MONK FOR DPS INCREASE!!!! " reasonable increase not insane damage but up to say brig and swash; rangers and assins should still own us. =p"And i think they can increase our dps on raids just by giving us a better chance to hit the mobs, i mean usualy out of everyone on the raid i have the lowest hit chance, and my crushing skill on raids is uauly over 570. My auto attack wich is where most of our damge comes from is usualy 70% chance to hit. I dunno if this is just me and my guild not debuffing the mobs enough or what. If anyone knows a way i can get my auto attack hit chance up let me know!! atm i currently parse 9-10.8k on palace trash in a decent group. This is same aa spec i tank in and pvp in becuse we dont really have a set tanking lines or dps lines our stuff is scattred so much.Sry i am just rambling cuz bored at work lol.

BChizzle

07-02-2009, 11:38 AM

Why would we need more dps we are already the top parsing tank.

Rotate

07-02-2009, 09:21 PM

ok, if our dps is fine. W/e just saying maybe it would help other brawlers get in on raids if they can dps like a rouge but without the debuffs of a rouge instead being a snap agro tank if mt goes down.but hey if everyones dps is fine atm thats fine i get in raids so w/e shrug.but ya know what would be nice making our self procs such as mantis bolt and crane twirl, wich are melee actualy use melee crit??? last i checked it was still on spell crit last gu spose to fix stuff like this was it not? hey soe doesnt care about monks i dont think we will see any change until feb. And it will prob be 50 more worthless aa's that do little to nothing for us.ps. oh ya.. and in new expansion our mythicals wont be the weapons to use anymore? hope they take into account that our mythical gives us chain mit.. unlike brusiers who get it in aa. Watch they overlook that and we are stuck with no chain mit lol.. Kinda like they gave brusiers chain mit in aa's and 10 % damage reduction on there mythical huh.

scalzo

07-02-2009, 09:33 PM

The 50 more AA's will be for the first two branches. They plan to make new end line abilities though for AA. I am guessing in those two branches. Hopefully a revamp. Our Monk end lines in the EoF tree really needs a revamp lol.

fre'do

07-07-2009, 01:05 PM

The real problem is we are just like how sony is...we are lost at what to do. There are three choices for us and that is the big problem. Most other classes only do one or two things well...we do three things well. The first choice is to be what we are suppose to be an tank and be better at tanking. They tend to want taunts and other stuff to make us more viable at it. At the lost of dps and utility. The second choice is dps and not as much tankage. They would rather not have more taunts but do more damage to keep agro.The final choice is utility people. The ones who tend to pick a balanced between extra dps and tankin skills, while keepin up on there noncombat skills.The tankage and dsp are the ones most people voice there opionions, but there is a quiet group like me that actually like utility of this class, and think this class is just good.

BChizzle

07-07-2009, 03:06 PM

Fred I prefer it when you stay quiet tbh. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

sokil

07-08-2009, 01:48 AM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks are tanks. Nobody wants that to change.The question really is - what are the intended and/or primary roles for monks in various settings?Groups - tanking is our primary role now. Frankly, any group with two fighters in it is not optimal (agree, which is why groups are hard to find). If I am in full DPS spec and gear, with good buffs, I can do about 75-80% of the single target DPS of our top brigand (with nothing like the debuff utility, of course). And on multiple mob encounters, our swash will pwn me, of course. On the other hand, I can tank any heroic content in the game. Not as easily as an SK or Paladin (particularly on big group encounters), but it can readily be done.The major problem with Monks as tanks on heroic content is not at the high end. It's at "entry level". A plate tank in T2 shard armor is a MUCH more effective tank than a similarly equipped monk. The gap closes with raid gear because the plate tanks are pushing so far into diminishing returns while we are still working up the curves.So, at present, we should view our primary group role as tanking. I would like to see: (1) our uncontested avoidance and other abilities increased substantially with heroic gear so that we can compete with similarly equipped plate tanks and (2) a significant bump to our DPS or utility in DPS mode so that we are more competitive in a support role. (With 6 in group, it's hard to give up a 25% or more dps in one slot.)Raids - Our primary role now is . . . uhh. Fourth tank, DPS, MT damage preventer? In all honesty, there is not a compelling reason to take either brawler on a raid right now in place of a T1 DPS or a second/third swash or brig (agree). Very well geared monks can tank most of the instanced raid content, but, let's be honest, it's a hairier, less efficient experience than with ANY plate tank (save possibly guard, due to hate issues). And how to get the gear if you are not needed on a raid? Once again, on the DPS side, we are 25% or more behind competitive classes. We have no appreciable DPS advantage over similarly geared and buffed, DPS specced plate fighters.So, what do we want it to be? Where do we want to compete for roles in a raid? MT? Fine, but, I have said it over and over again - having six classes competing for one slot in a raid is four or five too many (agree). I would like to see a balanced combination of spec and gear that would allow monks to be competitive MTs, but I think there MUST be at least one other role we can viably fill on a competitive basis. I would prefer that role be DPS nearly on par with rogues, with enough utilty (raid buff, avoidance lend, snap aggro/emergency recovery) to balance out the debuffs we don't have.</blockquote>Enjoyed the post and agree mostly. My monk has been a bruiser and now a monk again and I cannot find any place in a group. I do not have the gear to tank TSO instances (an average sk, pally, gaurd can tank better than a simialry geared monk in TSO instances) and few want a monk in a group as other classes are easier to fit in so I solo a a lot which makes gear even harder to get. Would like to see an off hand weapon worth its salt drop at least half as often as a sword/hammer etc. ATM as a non raid monk I am finding my choice to be the pvp offhand weapon.I would like to see more raid usefulness and be a tank in a 6 toon group for instances. I enjoy pvp with my monk (naggy server) but other than that and farming shinies I have not found my place as everyone wants my dirge/healer/swashi for a group but never EVER my monk. My monk is like the ugly stepchild. Everyone knows he exist but he is kept locked away.Perhaps increase our avoidence to make healing in instances less necessary and give us more group encounter or aoe taunts that work well? As my monk is my alt I cannot find a solution but I wish he could be my main but I dislike standing around all day trying to find a group and getting only groups that need to "simply fill the last spot".

HruntingCervantes

07-08-2009, 01:53 AM

In my eyes they should be straight DPS..when I seen they were basically tanks on here I'm like what the crap? lol

ShinGoku

07-08-2009, 04:38 AM

I've read a few times from the devs that no class should rely on gear to do their job yet this is exactly what monks have to do! Honestly, we shouldn't need uber gear to keep aggro, either taunts should be increased or a taunt element should be added to all attacks. Bump up our damage and mitigation and I think we would be inline with other tanks almost... Almost..

Ocello

07-10-2009, 08:00 PM

Monk and Bruiser fit more into the Brigand/Swash role than anything. I just levelled a swash to 80 and got his Mythical. I tank some, I DPS a lot. I basically OT in groups , if I see a mob get loose, I taunt it, hit Sleight of Hand and bring it back to the Tank. I'm even spec'd FD (which btw I would trade brawler FD all day for...1 min recast, but 100% effective). But basically I play the class about 95% the same as my monk, but I'm about 20% more DPS (especially AOE) and only about 20% worse at tanking instances. I also play a Berserker as my main now. Monk and Berserker have absolutely nothing in common. Apples and oranges.Tbh brawlers should be on the same damage level as Rogues to make up for the difference in utility. Hate transfer + poisons + major debuffs, T-swipe...these far outweigh the avoidance check and raidwide haste/cast speed because the rogue utility is NEEDED and the brawler's is not. It is fluff tbh.I used to love tanking in RoK, but when TSO came out, I retired him. Thanks SoE, for introducing me to the world of alts lol. My Zerker is a god compared to my very well-equipped monk, and my swashy with no gear is preferred over my monk in group situations.I know class balance is difficult, but give me a [Removed for Content] break.

Aull

07-10-2009, 10:34 PM

If the person who can successfully tank aoe content on a monk or a bruiser ever actually started tanking with an sk or zerker they might get bored. Brawlers have to actually work much harder than any plate tank to get the job done in aoe zones. So hard in fact many will not venture to tank these zones because the game has now become work.I do agree that tanking aoe content with a brawler is extremely tough, but for me when I am done I really feel like I accomplished something even though my zerker or sk is a much better choice.With that said SOE needs to make monk's 10ppm taunt an aoe encounter taunt and also do the same with bruiser's 5ppm taunt as well. This would be a great step in the right direction and it could be implimented quickly without being overpowering at all.Other than aoe monks seem to be the best at getting and holding aggro on single target mobs.

Seiji-01

07-15-2009, 07:25 AM

Personally, I'd rather go the way of DPS and/or utility than tanking. I chose Monk as my main because I wanted the option between tanking and adding damage, but if I had to pick just one, I'd go with DPS. The simplest way to appease all Brawlers (Monks in our case) is to give us better AA choices that highlight these various facets to a more apparent or extreme level. Make us spend a LOT to keep some balance, but once we spend that heavy amount of AA's, let us have our awesome-tank Monk, or super-DPS Monk. Give us the choice to spec specifically in either direction. To make it even simpler, heavily augment and tweak our current AA choices for what's blatantly supposed to be for DPS, tanking, and utilitity, again emphasizing the need to spend a lot of AA points to become effective. I'm alright with that. In addition, fix our class achievement "end" lines: Combination, Evade Check, and Master's Evasion. None of them are really... all that great, to be honest. Go ahead and keep it at just the three, but make each one very, very apparent to our three roles: tanking, DPS, and utility. It's trying to do that already, but let's face it: I don't know many that buy them unless they just don't know where to put that next point. One of them we have to macro to make even work the way we want it to without being a nuisance! Make them worth it; change them.Finally, my interesting idea to "fix" Monks: keep us the way we are, maybe tweak our class tree (like many of us want), and add a bit here and there. We're in dire need of fine tuning. As of now, our only role in the raid is to DPS and tell jokes, and even then, there's 8 classes off the top of my head that can do both of those, 6 of which can add WAY more utility AND do more DPS. To fix us, give us enough to earn a raid spot, maybe not guarantee, but enough to let the raid leader think, "Why do I want a Monk? Oh, that's why." Simple: give us heals. Okay, before you brush that off, think about it. Have you played Vanguard? How about that Disciple class? The Disciple is basically a Monk that heals. That's it. Give us the ability to heal!!! But WAIT! I've thought about this. It'd be easy-mode for us and cause lots of complaints from actual healers to just give us normal healing spells and abilities, so why not give us heal procs? Just as an example: 5% chance on hit to heal the group/raid for [x] amount. That's it! When the mob hits us, when we land hits, whenever we land a critical CA, some kind of on-chance heal. Tie it to our stances and we can tank/heal or DPS/heal, and maybe give us that on critical as a Concentration slot. Give us the healing procs, and I think it would fix a lot. Just make sure to make it a substantial heal. 100 points at level 80 doesn't seem all that serious, even if it is an AOE or group heal. To balance it with Bruisers, give them a life-tap version that heals less, but also AOE. It's not that difficult to link those skills with either class image or the lore.Even taking out the raid aspect of the arguement, the same things it would do for us there would apply to group and heroic content. It would help the tank-Monk stay alive AND add a lot of AOE hate, and it would give the DPS-Monk much needed utility to justify having two Fighters in the group.Just an idea, like I said, but I think a very, very viable one. Thoughts?

sokil

07-15-2009, 11:59 AM

<cite>fredo wrote:</cite><blockquote> The real problem is we are just like how sony is...we are lost at what to do. There are three choices for us and that is the big problem. Most other classes only do one or two things well...we do three things well. The first choice is to be what we are suppose to be an tank and be better at tanking. They tend to want taunts and other stuff to make us more viable at it. At the lost of dps and utility. The second choice is dps and not as much tankage. They would rather not have more taunts but do more damage to keep agro.The final choice is utility people. The ones who tend to pick a balanced between extra dps and tankin skills, while keepin up on there noncombat skills.The tankage and dsp are the ones most people voice there opionions, but there is a quiet group like me that actually like utility of this class, and think this class is just good.</blockquote>Sony knew when they reviewed and changed shadowknights. They no longer need to choose. They have "tankability" and DPS at the top of the parse and have utility.

circusgirl

07-15-2009, 06:43 PM

In the grand scheme of things I definetely fall down in the "monks are tanks" camp, but I definetely think the solution that will make the brawler community happiest as a whole is basically to make it a flexible class whose role is determined by AAs, gear, and stance.Brawlers right now are basically mediocre tanks & mediocre dps, and while we have a little wiggle room either way no setup is as powerful as a plate tank or a rogue trying to do the same thing. What I think should be done is make it so that you can either optimise yourself for tanking, in which case you have the dps of a guardian and the survivability of say, a paladin, optimise yourself for dps, in which case you have the dps of a rogue with tanking not much better than a brigand (but lacking the utility), or occupy some point in the middle of that scale (basically as we do right now). Basically, we should be able to be either solid dps (without the utility) or solid, viable tanks, but shouldn't be able to do both simultaneously. Alternatively, we should be able to spec for the middle ground, and fill the roll that we currently provide. It wouldn't be hard to do, and would mostly consist of shifting around the AAs we already have to stick all the tanking ones in the same lines and all the dps ones together, with a few upgrades here and there.

fre'do

07-16-2009, 12:52 PM

But we have tankage, dps and utility and we are not shadowknight thank goodness. Vinka I do like your soloution though even though i am completely happy with monk.

Loke

07-17-2009, 12:36 PM

I stopped playing my monk as a main a long time ago and that sucks because I really enjoyed leveling the class to 80. At this point, regardless of why I rolled a monk in 2004, I would like to be able to be useful in groups and raids. To achieve this I think the easiest path would be to make monks T1 DPSers. The main reason I think the DPS role would enable my monk to finds spots in groups and on raids is because generally there are 1/6 or 2-4/24 tanks spots in groups and raids respectively. On the other hand there are generally 3-4/6 or as many as 16+/24 spots for DPS. Until SOE changes group/raid dynamics such that a higher number of tanks are needed or even viable in these situations I think a DPS role would make finding somthing to do other than solo much easier for brawlers.And to all the people saying that if you want to DPS you should have rolled a scout, I rolled a monk based mostly on the abilities my monk had in EQ1. I would ask you, if you want to tank why didn't you roll a guardian?

Bruener

07-17-2009, 12:58 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the grand scheme of things I definetely fall down in the "monks are tanks" camp, but I definetely think the solution that will make the brawler community happiest as a whole is basically to make it a flexible class whose role is determined by AAs, gear, and stance.Brawlers right now are basically mediocre tanks & mediocre dps, and while we have a little wiggle room either way no setup is as powerful as a plate tank or a rogue trying to do the same thing. What I think should be done is make it so that you can either optimise yourself for tanking, in which case you have the dps of a guardian and the survivability of say, a paladin, optimise yourself for dps, in which case you have the dps of a rogue with tanking not much better than a brigand (but lacking the utility), or occupy some point in the middle of that scale (basically as we do right now). Basically, we should be able to be either solid dps (without the utility) or solid, viable tanks, but shouldn't be able to do both simultaneously. Alternatively, we should be able to spec for the middle ground, and fill the roll that we currently provide. It wouldn't be hard to do, and would mostly consist of shifting around the AAs we already have to stick all the tanking ones in the same lines and all the dps ones together, with a few upgrades here and there.</blockquote>The problem with this idea is the fact you have "choice" like that also needs to be balanced against the other fighters. Being able to tank as good as a Paladin in one spec, and than dps as high as rogues in another spec, and also having a spec in between gives a ton of choice...especially when you consider the effects that having the "paladin-type" spec with DPS gear gives, and the "DPS-spec" with tank gear gives, or the middle-type spec with tank or dps gear.Part of the balancing with brawlers that want multiple facets to the class is the fact that they get a lot of versatility, or at least they should. Jack of all trades....MASTER of none. So, you should not be able to tank as well as a Paladin than turn around and change your spec to DPS as high as rogues, or have a middle ground. The middle ground is the balance.From what Bchizzle has filled in if Brawlers gained a little AE agro, to me it sounds like they are not nearly as bad off as they make it. Maybe a slight boost in DPS. Brawlers can still tank and they can still DPS. They can spec heavier one way than the other through gear. Its the fact that min/max raids usually look for the extreme. The best at tanking, the best at DPS'ing, and the best utility. Good brawlers find spots though, and with a slight AE agro bump and slight DPS bump maybe even more would.

BChizzle

07-17-2009, 06:05 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the grand scheme of things I definetely fall down in the "monks are tanks" camp, but I definetely think the solution that will make the brawler community happiest as a whole is basically to make it a flexible class whose role is determined by AAs, gear, and stance.Brawlers right now are basically mediocre tanks & mediocre dps, and while we have a little wiggle room either way no setup is as powerful as a plate tank or a rogue trying to do the same thing. What I think should be done is make it so that you can either optimise yourself for tanking, in which case you have the dps of a guardian and the survivability of say, a paladin, optimise yourself for dps, in which case you have the dps of a rogue with tanking not much better than a brigand (but lacking the utility), or occupy some point in the middle of that scale (basically as we do right now). Basically, we should be able to be either solid dps (without the utility) or solid, viable tanks, but shouldn't be able to do both simultaneously. Alternatively, we should be able to spec for the middle ground, and fill the roll that we currently provide. It wouldn't be hard to do, and would mostly consist of shifting around the AAs we already have to stick all the tanking ones in the same lines and all the dps ones together, with a few upgrades here and there.</blockquote>The problem with this idea is the fact you have "choice" like that also needs to be balanced against the other fighters. Being able to tank as good as a Paladin in one spec, and than dps as high as rogues in another spec, and also having a spec in between gives a ton of choice...especially when you consider the effects that having the "paladin-type" spec with DPS gear gives, and the "DPS-spec" with tank gear gives, or the middle-type spec with tank or dps gear.Part of the balancing with brawlers that want multiple facets to the class is the fact that they get a lot of versatility, or at least they should. Jack of all trades....MASTER of none. So, you should not be able to tank as well as a Paladin than turn around and change your spec to DPS as high as rogues, or have a middle ground. The middle ground is the balance.From what Bchizzle has filled in if Brawlers gained a little AE agro, to me it sounds like they are not nearly as bad off as they make it. Maybe a slight boost in DPS. Brawlers can still tank and they can still DPS. They can spec heavier one way than the other through gear. Its the fact that min/max raids usually look for the extreme. The best at tanking, the best at DPS'ing, and the best utility. Good brawlers find spots though, and with a slight AE agro bump and slight DPS bump maybe even more would.</blockquote>Monks dont really need more dps, but an ae agro bump would be very nice. And I really don't get why you guys still talk like monks can't tank effectively, they can, like I said two areas ae agro and spike damage management could use some slight tweaks not a major overhaul.

Morrolan V

07-18-2009, 03:42 PM

Couple points:1. BChizzle, you have to bear in mind that what YOU see is not what the majority of monks see. Which said, you are absolutely right. Monks can tank, including in raids. I tank in raids a lot. My gear is not like yours, but I have very good fabled gear, and it does work. You point out two problems: AE aggro and spike management. Those are not trivial issues.As our MT defiler said the other night. "Ryth, I love healing you, and I hate it, cause you get hit twice per fight for 20K."It's a bit of an exaggeration, but only a bit, and it does really illustrate the problem. Spike management is a HUGE issue for raid tanks. I have looked at the parses. I take considerably less damage over time than our plate tanks. Yet I die more. My ability to stay alive on name fights has a lot to do with whether my healers and I can use our various specials to exactly time when those spikes are coming. No matter how well you know the fights and your class, you're not going to get all of them.You also need to take into account that the balance does not continue down the spectrum of gear and experience. As I mentioned above, a plate tank in T2 armor with limited tanking experience can tank pretty effectively. A monk in T2 gear with the same amount of skill? Much harder, and more group specific. This is due to the same issues, and the fact that we catch up a lot on survivability at the high end since plate tanks are pushing so far up the diminishing returns curves while we are still gaining a lot.This continuing imbalance at the entry level contributes to (1) the perception among both monks and the other players that monks aren't great tanks, and (2) means that less monks have the inclination or opportunity to get great tanking skills.2. Bruner, the "jack of all trades master of none" idea is not balance in a game where all of the relevant content for two of the three primary adventuring playstyles (raiding and group dungeon crawls) is at the level cap. It's one thing to say that monks have an easier time soloing quests and getting tough to reach clickies, but that does NOTHING to make us more desireable in raids or groups. Rogues are the best example. A rogue that is not tanking brings both more dps and more utility to a group or raid than a monk who is not tanking. The fact that a monk can change spec and gear and become a better tank does nothing to improve our balance in other roles.

Bruener

07-18-2009, 04:41 PM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>2. Bruner, the "jack of all trades master of none" idea is not balance in a game where all of the relevant content for two of the three primary adventuring playstyles (raiding and group dungeon crawls) is at the level cap. It's one thing to say that monks have an easier time soloing quests and getting tough to reach clickies, but that does NOTHING to make us more desireable in raids or groups. Rogues are the best example. A rogue that is not tanking brings both more dps and more utility to a group or raid than a monk who is not tanking. The fact that a monk can change spec and gear and become a better tank does nothing to improve our balance in other roles.</blockquote>That is exactly my point, and why I responded to the poster before me. Some Brawlers want to be able to spec into a certain area and the more that is asked for the less optimum Monks will be for it. You have choices, the choices by themselves make it so that you can't be the best in any of those single areas, but you can be good in any 1 of them if you spec it. Otherwise, if a Brawler can have the choices of Tank, DPS, or Utility depending on their spec, and still be one of the top classes in either of those areas they are completely over-powered.I am sorry, but no class should be able to completely change their spec with a click of their mirror and go from being fantastic on one end like tanking and than click and suddenly they are fantastic DPS. Brawlers are the top ST DPS of fighters already, they CAN tank any zone, and have some utility. LIke BChizzle has said, a bump in AE agro would go a long ways...and honestly I am not sure I agree about the spike damage mitigating because that could lead into OP'd tanking.

Aull

07-18-2009, 07:33 PM

Well I can understand that some will believe that if a monk can by the flip of the aa mirror become great at tanking or flip and loose that tanking ability but have strong dps that would be overpowering. I honestly would say it wouldn't be overpowering.The reason I say that is sk's do not need to flip a spec to become great at tanking, dps, or utility. They just are all that because of great aa selections that sk's get. No other fighter that I know of can do everything sk's are capable of period!So yeah I would say not just monks, but all fighters need to be boosted if they are to compete with sk's. Non-mythed zerkers do not even come close to the consistancy of non-mythed sk's on aoe fights and to me that is crazy. So if a zerker cannot compete with the sk in aoe we all know that brawlers are at a huge loss when it comes to aoe.Even if this so called mirror spec would allow a monk to be a great tank or flip and be great dps they still wouldn't be anything close to an sk.

scalzo

07-19-2009, 01:02 AM

Balance are we there yet LOL? I am afraid not. SK god mode proves this. They can out parse, and have better survivability ( plate armor ) than brawlers. Their AE aggro is crazy. Ever try to peel hate off a SK? Not an easy thing to do. They can FD also. So when is other fighter classes getting boosted up, or when is the SK getting nerfed? Soon you will have raids with just SK's as the tanks no need for warriors or brawlers. Just get 3-4 SK's and be happy. Is this the direction SoE wanted to go?

BChizzle

07-19-2009, 01:08 AM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couple points:1. BChizzle, you have to bear in mind that what YOU see is not what the majority of monks see. Which said, you are absolutely right. Monks can tank, including in raids. I tank in raids a lot. My gear is not like yours, but I have very good fabled gear, and it does work. You point out two problems: AE aggro and spike management. Those are not trivial issues.</blockquote>I am probably more qualified then the majority of what monks see since I have already progressed where you will be in a few months. Try and not to forget an expansion drops and poof every top tank in the game has all teh top gear like magic. I have raid tanked in your gear, you haven't done so in mine. And for the guy saying we would be OP if we had some sort of way to help with spikes well they just need to balance it, right now it isn't good. I really think if they could fix med heal it would be enough, tanking YIS today it went off 11 times out of 2013 hits, thats just too low, it should go off even if it is a warded hit.

Siatfallen

07-19-2009, 06:48 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couple points:1. BChizzle, you have to bear in mind that what YOU see is not what the majority of monks see. Which said, you are absolutely right. Monks can tank, including in raids. I tank in raids a lot. My gear is not like yours, but I have very good fabled gear, and it does work. You point out two problems: AE aggro and spike management. Those are not trivial issues.</blockquote>I am probably more qualified then the majority of what monks see since I have already progressed where you will be in a few months. Try and not to forget an expansion drops and poof every top tank in the game has all teh top gear like magic. I have raid tanked in your gear, you haven't done so in mine. And for the guy saying we would be OP if we had some sort of way to help with spikes well they just need to balance it, right now it isn't good. I really think if they could fix med heal it would be enough, tanking YIS today it went off 11 times out of 2013 hits, thats just too low, it should go off even if it is a warded hit.</blockquote>The problem has nothing to do with different tiers of raid gear. As has been pointed out to me several times, raid-geared monks tend to lean towards tanking, because at that level of play in tSO, it's what the class can pull off without being a complete joke in the attempt. I don't mean to imply I've done an extensive survey, but I have asked quite a few monks, and the replies seem to be this:Raid level monks want to tank (the may gripe, as I did, that this is what they're now supposed to do and that it's completely counter-intuitive, but they acknowledge the role). So they ask for better tanking tools. One or two I talked with (people who have left the game by now) went as far as saying that this seemed like a design mistake more than anything - but the point stands.Grouping monks who do not raid at all (which is to say, who doesn't run WoE either) tend heavily towards being DPS-specced, and think the whole "monks = tanks" is a bad joke if anything.Oh, right, and purely soloing monks (whom I haven't caught many of in the game; they tend to be hard to find) seem to think we're doing just fine - using spike DPS and survival tools to stay alive and get things deaded. Not like the tank/DPS distinction makes much sense here.In all seriousness, the reply is consistently "we're hybrids, but..." - the above is an exaggeration. I hope you'll accept the point regardless.Now, my oppinion on the monk class has been plastered all over the forums here as it is, so I'll not trouble you further with it, but there's obvious problems with this arrangement. Aside from the fact that some of the community will be unhappy with whatever direction is chosen for the class, meaning SoE might opt to simply not solve the problem and just hope the complaints go away, which I figure is sort of what happened with the fighter revamp in general in tSO, it's a major problem that different tiers of play with this class seems to enforce different preferences of playstyle within the same class.More than any fine-tuning at the raid level of play, they need to make sure people are playing the same class here, or they need to make sure that the playstyles (if they want both) are enforces throughout the tiers. Personally, I didn't really play tSO without raid-end gear (from RoK initially), and neither did a lot of the brawler population active on these forums I suspect, but from some of the complaints that do arrive here, I understand it's a pretty major problem?Now, adjusting meditative healing might help on the raid level. I loathe the idea that class balance should hinge on a single AA, but when we're talking raiding, people should have the points to spend on it anyway.How to address balance at the group level of play?Sorry to drag out this explanation so much, but I think this is what Rythalian was getting at, and since I think it's a valid point, well, here it is.

Aull

07-19-2009, 11:34 AM

What sucks is that everyday questing brawlers struggle getting equipment that truely fits their individual playstyle. That is why being this so called "hybrid" fighters stinks because it is hard to actually focus on either spectrum of play. The stats on most non shard equip is never just considered as great for tanking or great for dps leaving brawlers as medicore at doing both and never excelling in either dept. Shard gear is more tankish for brawlers and that is cool with me since brawlers are classified as fighters. Only the end game elite brawlers are doing rogue type if not better dps. The rest of the everyday brawlers are trying to be this rogue like dps but are falling short due again to a misconceptions of the class being a true dps class.It will be this way until this "hybrid" type of mentality is shunned and more defined roles are implimented.

Blu

07-20-2009, 01:47 PM

Cynicisim

07-20-2009, 02:14 PM

<cite>BlueX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couple points:1. BChizzle, you have to bear in mind that what YOU see is not what the majority of monks see. Which said, you are absolutely right. Monks can tank, including in raids. I tank in raids a lot. My gear is not like yours, but I have very good fabled gear, and it does work. You point out two problems: AE aggro and spike management. Those are not trivial issues.</blockquote>I am probably more qualified then the majority of what monks see since I have already progressed where you will be in a few months. Try and not to forget an expansion drops and poof every top tank in the game has all teh top gear like magic. I have raid tanked in your gear, you haven't done so in mine. And for the guy saying we would be OP if we had some sort of way to help with spikes well they just need to balance it, right now it isn't good. I really think if they could fix med heal it would be enough, tanking YIS today it went off 11 times out of 2013 hits, thats just too low, it should go off even if it is a warded hit.</blockquote>The difference is you don't have perspective on what it's like to be a monk in master crafted trying to get a shard group.</blockquote>/agree. MC gear.. cannot tank and it is seldom anyone thinks we can dps (little do they know). Same goes for finding a raid spot as has been spoken of so many times. I have been on one raid after begging for my monk.. halfway through I get a tell from raid leader "go get your dirge now". sigh. Of course my dirge is going to outparse my monk (and be more useful). He is in raid gear and does not need much of anything.

Cynicisim

07-20-2009, 02:25 PM

<cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Balance are we there yet LOL? I am afraid not. SK god mode proves this. They can out parse, and have better survivability ( plate armor ) than brawlers. Their AE aggro is crazy. Ever try to peel hate off a SK? Not an easy thing to do. They can FD also. So when is other fighter classes getting boosted up, or when is the SK getting nerfed? Soon you will have raids with just SK's as the tanks no need for warriors or brawlers. Just get 3-4 SK's and be happy. Is this the direction SoE wanted to go?</blockquote>I was just trolling the SK forum after my monk and a bruiser was killed by an Sk (who healed himself to 100% halfway throught the fight) so I am a little jadded atm. ENOE posted on sk forum about how diverse and hybrid the SKs are and it makes me sad. I like the idea of a hybrid and SK has it perfectly if they did go to extreme and make them OP. Not only do they have what is mentioned above, but along with FD, Evac, heals, plat, debuffs, dps etc. They also kept HT where as our little Devestation Fist has been nerfed to clueless. I would like to see DF be usealbe in pvp and pve as is the HT. They are both on a 5 mn timmer. move them back to 15 and erase the nerf. Don't get me wrong, I know the differences between sk FD and ours and if I wanted to play SK I would, but I can see the possiblility for my monk in a strange reflection of the SKs.

Blu

07-20-2009, 03:06 PM

<cite>Seiji-01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, I'd rather go the way of DPS and/or utility than tanking. I chose Monk as my main because I wanted the option between tanking and adding damage, but if I had to pick just one, I'd go with DPS. The simplest way to appease all Brawlers (Monks in our case) is to give us better AA choices that highlight these various facets to a more apparent or extreme level. Make us spend a LOT to keep some balance, but once we spend that heavy amount of AA's, let us have our awesome-tank Monk, or super-DPS Monk. Give us the choice to spec specifically in either direction. To make it even simpler, heavily augment and tweak our current AA choices for what's blatantly supposed to be for DPS, tanking, and utilitity, again emphasizing the need to spend a lot of AA points to become effective. I'm alright with that. In addition, fix our class achievement "end" lines: Combination, Evade Check, and Master's Evasion. None of them are really... all that great, to be honest. Go ahead and keep it at just the three, but make each one very, very apparent to our three roles: tanking, DPS, and utility. It's trying to do that already, but let's face it: I don't know many that buy them unless they just don't know where to put that next point. One of them we have to macro to make even work the way we want it to without being a nuisance! Make them worth it; change them.Finally, my interesting idea to "fix" Monks: keep us the way we are, maybe tweak our class tree (like many of us want), and add a bit here and there. We're in dire need of fine tuning. As of now, our only role in the raid is to DPS and tell jokes, and even then, there's 8 classes off the top of my head that can do both of those, 6 of which can add WAY more utility AND do more DPS. To fix us, give us enough to earn a raid spot, maybe not guarantee, but enough to let the raid leader think, "Why do I want a Monk? Oh, that's why." Simple: give us heals. Okay, before you brush that off, think about it. Have you played Vanguard? How about that Disciple class? The Disciple is basically a Monk that heals. That's it. Give us the ability to heal!!! But WAIT! I've thought about this. It'd be easy-mode for us and cause lots of complaints from actual healers to just give us normal healing spells and abilities, so why not give us heal procs? Just as an example: 5% chance on hit to heal the group/raid for [x] amount. That's it! When the mob hits us, when we land hits, whenever we land a critical CA, some kind of on-chance heal. Tie it to our stances and we can tank/heal or DPS/heal, and maybe give us that on critical as a Concentration slot. Give us the healing procs, and I think it would fix a lot. Just make sure to make it a substantial heal. 100 points at level 80 doesn't seem all that serious, even if it is an AOE or group heal. To balance it with Bruisers, give them a life-tap version that heals less, but also AOE. It's not that difficult to link those skills with either class image or the lore.Even taking out the raid aspect of the arguement, the same things it would do for us there would apply to group and heroic content. It would help the tank-Monk stay alive AND add a lot of AOE hate, and it would give the DPS-Monk much needed utility to justify having two Fighters in the group.Just an idea, like I said, but I think a very, very viable one. Thoughts?</blockquote>I don't think the heal proc idea has a real chance with the devs or the community at large, but I just wanted to tell you that I actually use this tactic when soloing and tanking, and it is effective and a noticeable difference. I have collected various gear that procs a self heal. I also have a set of dps gear (mostly legendary). Even though the heal proc gear hurts my dps a bit, it's still noticeably more survivable. Of course, the RNG has the ultimate say... you could get bad luck with avoidance and bad luck with procs simultaneously for ultimate fail.I'm also getting healed for a lot more than 100. Vampiric handles are 170, survival accord medal gives over 100 (forget how much), and divine restoration proc gives 350ish or 300ish (depending on item). I don't have the shard weapon yet, but it lifetaps up to a 600 or 700 heal (can't recall which). So your idea is testable, for self heal procs at least. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Aull

07-20-2009, 03:10 PM

I don't know what was happening the other night but my friend was on his monk and I was on my sk. He would pull a mob and I would let him beat on the mob for about five seconds before I did anything. All I would do is press my sk's single target taunt and bam I had the aggro instantly with out hesiation and no other damaging spells/melee happened. I did this for a while and then decided to this same scenario with my zerker.Needless to say if my monk friend beat on the mob for five seconds before my zerker did anything then my zerker could never get the aggro back using his single target, encounter taunt, and beating the mob into oblivion. It just would not happen.Both my zerker and sk have grandmaster in their single target taunts but my sk's for some reason just flat out works better than my zerks taunt.

Bruener

07-20-2009, 05:57 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know what was happening the other night but my friend was on his monk and I was on my sk. He would pull a mob and I would let him beat on the mob for about five seconds before I did anything. All I would do is press my sk's single target taunt and bam I had the aggro instantly with out hesiation and no other damaging spells/melee happened. I did this for a while and then decided to this same scenario with my zerker.Needless to say if my monk friend beat on the mob for five seconds before my zerker did anything then my zerker could never get the aggro back using his single target, encounter taunt, and beating the mob into oblivion. It just would not happen.Both my zerker and sk have grandmaster in their single target taunts but my sk's for some reason just flat out works better than my zerks taunt.</blockquote>These stories are just retarted. Completely unbelievable at best. Your telling me that a monk that would wail on a ST couldn't hold agro off a SK that does a single taunt. I call BS on this, and I am sorry stories like this lead nubs to believe they are playing classes that suck, and that other classes are so beyond OP'd...and than the whining happens. The only reason this should have happened is if the SK used a snap agro taunt. No taunt is going to isntantly pull agro off like that after 5 second of that person beating on the target.And to the person above talking about PvP. Did you ever think that that player was significantly better than you at PvP? Again a total exaggeration. Besides that, there should never be balance for PvE based on PvP. EQ2 was not intended to be a PvP game, its the reason why it is so out of balance in that aspect of the game. Nothing worse than when they start to balance PvE based on the PvP side. It should be treated like a completely different game.

BChizzle

07-20-2009, 07:24 PM

<cite>BlueX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couple points:1. BChizzle, you have to bear in mind that what YOU see is not what the majority of monks see. Which said, you are absolutely right. Monks can tank, including in raids. I tank in raids a lot. My gear is not like yours, but I have very good fabled gear, and it does work. You point out two problems: AE aggro and spike management. Those are not trivial issues.</blockquote>I am probably more qualified then the majority of what monks see since I have already progressed where you will be in a few months. Try and not to forget an expansion drops and poof every top tank in the game has all teh top gear like magic. I have raid tanked in your gear, you haven't done so in mine. And for the guy saying we would be OP if we had some sort of way to help with spikes well they just need to balance it, right now it isn't good. I really think if they could fix med heal it would be enough, tanking YIS today it went off 11 times out of 2013 hits, thats just too low, it should go off even if it is a warded hit.</blockquote>The difference is you don't have perspective on what it's like to be a monk in master crafted trying to get a shard group.</blockquote>LOL, any tank is going to have difficulties trying to play in mastercrafted armor, but you know what the difference between them and monks is? Monks can solo a huge amount of shards and the plate tanks can't.

Blu

07-20-2009, 08:30 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BlueX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couple points:1. BChizzle, you have to bear in mind that what YOU see is not what the majority of monks see. Which said, you are absolutely right. Monks can tank, including in raids. I tank in raids a lot. My gear is not like yours, but I have very good fabled gear, and it does work. You point out two problems: AE aggro and spike management. Those are not trivial issues.</blockquote>I am probably more qualified then the majority of what monks see since I have already progressed where you will be in a few months. Try and not to forget an expansion drops and poof every top tank in the game has all teh top gear like magic. I have raid tanked in your gear, you haven't done so in mine. And for the guy saying we would be OP if we had some sort of way to help with spikes well they just need to balance it, right now it isn't good. I really think if they could fix med heal it would be enough, tanking YIS today it went off 11 times out of 2013 hits, thats just too low, it should go off even if it is a warded hit.</blockquote>The difference is you don't have perspective on what it's like to be a monk in master crafted trying to get a shard group.</blockquote>LOL, any tank is going to have difficulties trying to play in mastercrafted armor, but you know what the difference between them and monks is? Monks can solo a huge amount of shards and the plate tanks can't.</blockquote>Um, huge amount of solo shards how please? I thought they changed key mobs to prevent that. And you're not going to be soloing white 3-up key mobs in all MC / broker-legendary armor. Don't just take my word for it; try it yourself.You know, I really have no problem with Meditative Healing (I don't need it atm). But rather that going around trolling everyone's post on med heal saying nothing's wrong with it, I just keep silent until I've had occasion to use it and find it working or not for myself.Even though you can't see the problem, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Aull

07-20-2009, 10:29 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know what was happening the other night but my friend was on his monk and I was on my sk. He would pull a mob and I would let him beat on the mob for about five seconds before I did anything. All I would do is press my sk's single target taunt and bam I had the aggro instantly with out hesiation and no other damaging spells/melee happened. I did this for a while and then decided to this same scenario with my zerker.Needless to say if my monk friend beat on the mob for five seconds before my zerker did anything then my zerker could never get the aggro back using his single target, encounter taunt, and beating the mob into oblivion. It just would not happen.Both my zerker and sk have grandmaster in their single target taunts but my sk's for some reason just flat out works better than my zerks taunt.</blockquote>These stories are just retarted. Completely unbelievable at best. Your telling me that a monk that would wail on a ST couldn't hold agro off a SK that does a single taunt. I call BS on this, and I am sorry stories like this lead nubs to believe they are playing classes that suck, and that other classes are so beyond OP'd...and than the whining happens. The only reason this should have happened is if the SK used a snap agro taunt. No taunt is going to isntantly pull agro off like that after 5 second of that person beating on the target.And to the person above talking about PvP. Did you ever think that that player was significantly better than you at PvP? Again a total exaggeration. Besides that, there should never be balance for PvE based on PvP. EQ2 was not intended to be a PvP game, its the reason why it is so out of balance in that aspect of the game. Nothing worse than when they start to balance PvE based on the PvP side. It should be treated like a completely different game.</blockquote>I have already sent PM's to devs about this issue. Bruener you can call my story HS, BS, or what ever makes you happy and its cool with me, but it did happen. The reason I mentioned it was because my zerker under the same circumstances couldn't even hold, keep, retain, or snap back aggro off the monk using everything but insolence and rescue. That is why I go hummm when my sk has absolutely no problem what so ever holding, keeping, retaining, and snapping aggro off the monk with basically a single target taunt.It could be just a glitch or maybe sk's have better taunts/hate mod codes we do not know about.

BChizzle

07-20-2009, 10:32 PM

<cite>BlueX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BlueX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couple points:1. BChizzle, you have to bear in mind that what YOU see is not what the majority of monks see. Which said, you are absolutely right. Monks can tank, including in raids. I tank in raids a lot. My gear is not like yours, but I have very good fabled gear, and it does work. You point out two problems: AE aggro and spike management. Those are not trivial issues.</blockquote>I am probably more qualified then the majority of what monks see since I have already progressed where you will be in a few months. Try and not to forget an expansion drops and poof every top tank in the game has all teh top gear like magic. I have raid tanked in your gear, you haven't done so in mine. And for the guy saying we would be OP if we had some sort of way to help with spikes well they just need to balance it, right now it isn't good. I really think if they could fix med heal it would be enough, tanking YIS today it went off 11 times out of 2013 hits, thats just too low, it should go off even if it is a warded hit.</blockquote>The difference is you don't have perspective on what it's like to be a monk in master crafted trying to get a shard group.</blockquote>LOL, any tank is going to have difficulties trying to play in mastercrafted armor, but you know what the difference between them and monks is? Monks can solo a huge amount of shards and the plate tanks can't.</blockquote>Um, huge amount of solo shards how please? I thought they changed key mobs to prevent that. And you're not going to be soloing white 3-up key mobs in all MC / broker-legendary armor. Don't just take my word for it; try it yourself.You know, I really have no problem with Meditative Healing (I don't need it atm). But rather that going around trolling everyone's post on med heal saying nothing's wrong with it, I just keep silent until I've had occasion to use it and find it working or not for myself.Even though you can't see the problem, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.</blockquote>There are 9 shard quests that can be soloed by a brawler.

scalzo

07-21-2009, 03:23 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know what was happening the other night but my friend was on his monk and I was on my sk. He would pull a mob and I would let him beat on the mob for about five seconds before I did anything. All I would do is press my sk's single target taunt and bam I had the aggro instantly with out hesiation and no other damaging spells/melee happened. I did this for a while and then decided to this same scenario with my zerker.Needless to say if my monk friend beat on the mob for five seconds before my zerker did anything then my zerker could never get the aggro back using his single target, encounter taunt, and beating the mob into oblivion. It just would not happen.Both my zerker and sk have grandmaster in their single target taunts but my sk's for some reason just flat out works better than my zerks taunt.</blockquote>These stories are just retarted. Completely unbelievable at best. Your telling me that a monk that would wail on a ST couldn't hold agro off a SK that does a single taunt. I call BS on this, and I am sorry stories like this lead nubs to believe they are playing classes that suck, and that other classes are so beyond OP'd...and than the whining happens. The only reason this should have happened is if the SK used a snap agro taunt. No taunt is going to isntantly pull agro off like that after 5 second of that person beating on the target.And to the person above talking about PvP. Did you ever think that that player was significantly better than you at PvP? Again a total exaggeration. Besides that, there should never be balance for PvE based on PvP. EQ2 was not intended to be a PvP game, its the reason why it is so out of balance in that aspect of the game. Nothing worse than when they start to balance PvE based on the PvP side. It should be treated like a completely different game.</blockquote>I have already sent PM's to devs about this issue. Bruener you can call my story HS, BS, or what ever makes you happy and its cool with me, but it did happen. The reason I mentioned it was because my zerker under the same circumstances couldn't even hold, keep, retain, or snap back aggro off the monk using everything but insolence and rescue. That is why I go hummm when my sk has absolutely no problem what so ever holding, keeping, retaining, and snapping aggro off the monk with basically a single target taunt.It could be just a glitch or maybe sk's have better taunts/hate mod codes we do not know about.</blockquote>Because the SK is OP period. It is the best tank in the game atm. The only thing that comes close is a Zerker. Pally's are holding ground OK. Brawlers if speced right are next on aggro. Sorry Guards, but Guards have the crappiest AoE aggro atm. I hope something gets fixed soon because I am tired of seeing 50 Sk's in a zone. I think everyone even their momma made a SK alt.

Aull

07-21-2009, 09:33 AM

<cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know what was happening the other night but my friend was on his monk and I was on my sk. He would pull a mob and I would let him beat on the mob for about five seconds before I did anything. All I would do is press my sk's single target taunt and bam I had the aggro instantly with out hesiation and no other damaging spells/melee happened. I did this for a while and then decided to this same scenario with my zerker.Needless to say if my monk friend beat on the mob for five seconds before my zerker did anything then my zerker could never get the aggro back using his single target, encounter taunt, and beating the mob into oblivion. It just would not happen.Both my zerker and sk have grandmaster in their single target taunts but my sk's for some reason just flat out works better than my zerks taunt.</blockquote>These stories are just retarted. Completely unbelievable at best. Your telling me that a monk that would wail on a ST couldn't hold agro off a SK that does a single taunt. I call BS on this, and I am sorry stories like this lead nubs to believe they are playing classes that suck, and that other classes are so beyond OP'd...and than the whining happens. The only reason this should have happened is if the SK used a snap agro taunt. No taunt is going to isntantly pull agro off like that after 5 second of that person beating on the target.And to the person above talking about PvP. Did you ever think that that player was significantly better than you at PvP? Again a total exaggeration. Besides that, there should never be balance for PvE based on PvP. EQ2 was not intended to be a PvP game, its the reason why it is so out of balance in that aspect of the game. Nothing worse than when they start to balance PvE based on the PvP side. It should be treated like a completely different game.</blockquote>I have already sent PM's to devs about this issue. Bruener you can call my story HS, BS, or what ever makes you happy and its cool with me, but it did happen. The reason I mentioned it was because my zerker under the same circumstances couldn't even hold, keep, retain, or snap back aggro off the monk using everything but insolence and rescue. That is why I go hummm when my sk has absolutely no problem what so ever holding, keeping, retaining, and snapping aggro off the monk with basically a single target taunt.It could be just a glitch or maybe sk's have better taunts/hate mod codes we do not know about.</blockquote>Because the SK is OP period. It is the best tank in the game atm. The only thing that comes close is a Zerker. Pally's are holding ground OK. Brawlers if speced right are next on aggro. Sorry Guards, but Guards have the crappiest AoE aggro atm. I hope something gets fixed soon because I am tired of seeing 50 Sk's in a zone. I think everyone even their momma made a SK alt.</blockquote>Well it just boggled my mind when I seen that happen the other night. Both my sk and my friends monk have not been played in about four months so we decided to dust them off a bit. Neither are end game geared and are still rolling around with mastercrafted weapons/gear with a few minor pieces of legendary. They both are just alts. I am sure with better equip and such it would be different.Yes I do agree that end game geared sk's are the smoking guns of the fighters right now.

Bruener

07-21-2009, 01:13 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know what was happening the other night but my friend was on his monk and I was on my sk. He would pull a mob and I would let him beat on the mob for about five seconds before I did anything. All I would do is press my sk's single target taunt and bam I had the aggro instantly with out hesiation and no other damaging spells/melee happened. I did this for a while and then decided to this same scenario with my zerker.Needless to say if my monk friend beat on the mob for five seconds before my zerker did anything then my zerker could never get the aggro back using his single target, encounter taunt, and beating the mob into oblivion. It just would not happen.Both my zerker and sk have grandmaster in their single target taunts but my sk's for some reason just flat out works better than my zerks taunt.</blockquote>These stories are just retarted. Completely unbelievable at best. Your telling me that a monk that would wail on a ST couldn't hold agro off a SK that does a single taunt. I call BS on this, and I am sorry stories like this lead nubs to believe they are playing classes that suck, and that other classes are so beyond OP'd...and than the whining happens. The only reason this should have happened is if the SK used a snap agro taunt. No taunt is going to isntantly pull agro off like that after 5 second of that person beating on the target.And to the person above talking about PvP. Did you ever think that that player was significantly better than you at PvP? Again a total exaggeration. Besides that, there should never be balance for PvE based on PvP. EQ2 was not intended to be a PvP game, its the reason why it is so out of balance in that aspect of the game. Nothing worse than when they start to balance PvE based on the PvP side. It should be treated like a completely different game.</blockquote>I have already sent PM's to devs about this issue. Bruener you can call my story HS, BS, or what ever makes you happy and its cool with me, but it did happen. The reason I mentioned it was because my zerker under the same circumstances couldn't even hold, keep, retain, or snap back aggro off the monk using everything but insolence and rescue. That is why I go hummm when my sk has absolutely no problem what so ever holding, keeping, retaining, and snapping aggro off the monk with basically a single target taunt.It could be just a glitch or maybe sk's have better taunts/hate mod codes we do not know about.</blockquote>Because the SK is OP period. It is the best tank in the game atm. The only thing that comes close is a Zerker. Pally's are holding ground OK. Brawlers if speced right are next on aggro. Sorry Guards, but Guards have the crappiest AoE aggro atm. I hope something gets fixed soon because I am tired of seeing 50 Sk's in a zone. I think everyone even their momma made a SK alt.</blockquote>Well it just boggled my mind when I seen that happen the other night. Both my sk and my friends monk have not been played in about four months so we decided to dust them off a bit. Neither are end game geared and are still rolling around with mastercrafted weapons/gear with a few minor pieces of legendary. They both are just alts. I am sure with better equip and such it would be different.Yes I do agree that end game geared sk's are the smoking guns of the fighters right now.</blockquote>I call BS because that is exactly what it is. The ones saying differently definitely do not know any different. Maybe since you were just "dusting off" your toons you were using abilities that are now different on the SK. Example, if you use Sac it is now a hate position increaser. There is honestly know reason what you said, actually happened. I play with other tanks all the fricken time. Yes I can rip agro if I want. But if the other tank is working at agro too there is no way I can rip it with a single taunt, it takes time unless I pop a hate position increaser. That is how all tanks work atm. Its dumb that stories like these are even recognized since the majority of the population knows this can't happen. However, there are always a few nubs that start to believe it....hence the SK OP'd comment in response. Any tank can hold a ST for a significant amount of time off another as long as the other is not popping hate position abilities. Even than the other tank has hate position abilities they can use as well.Most likely what you have a case of is over-exaggeration, something like 5 seconds being 1 second after engagement. And also somebody using SK abilities that they are not even sure what they do. Grats.

circusgirl

07-21-2009, 04:49 PM

Guys, we already have a bajillion threads out there about why SKs are overpowered and monks are underpowered. That's not the issue here.We're underpowered right now. That's a fact. Can we tank? Yes...just not as well as plates. Can we dps? Yes...just not as well as scouts (minus bards), mages, or shadowknights.Rather than fill another thread with rants about whether or not SKs are overpowered, how about we stay on topic and discuss what we would like our class to be when we're eventually fixed?

Aull

07-21-2009, 06:09 PM

My bad here guys. I was getting off topic and my bad.

fre'do

07-21-2009, 06:33 PM

This is now gettin funny. Thanks.

Blu

07-22-2009, 04:42 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BlueX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BlueX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couple points:1. BChizzle, you have to bear in mind that what YOU see is not what the majority of monks see. Which said, you are absolutely right. Monks can tank, including in raids. I tank in raids a lot. My gear is not like yours, but I have very good fabled gear, and it does work. You point out two problems: AE aggro and spike management. Those are not trivial issues.</blockquote>I am probably more qualified then the majority of what monks see since I have already progressed where you will be in a few months. Try and not to forget an expansion drops and poof every top tank in the game has all teh top gear like magic. I have raid tanked in your gear, you haven't done so in mine. And for the guy saying we would be OP if we had some sort of way to help with spikes well they just need to balance it, right now it isn't good. I really think if they could fix med heal it would be enough, tanking YIS today it went off 11 times out of 2013 hits, thats just too low, it should go off even if it is a warded hit.</blockquote>The difference is you don't have perspective on what it's like to be a monk in master crafted trying to get a shard group.</blockquote>LOL, any tank is going to have difficulties trying to play in mastercrafted armor, but you know what the difference between them and monks is? Monks can solo a huge amount of shards and the plate tanks can't.</blockquote>Um, huge amount of solo shards how please? I thought they changed key mobs to prevent that. And you're not going to be soloing white 3-up key mobs in all MC / broker-legendary armor. Don't just take my word for it; try it yourself.You know, I really have no problem with Meditative Healing (I don't need it atm). But rather that going around trolling everyone's post on med heal saying nothing's wrong with it, I just keep silent until I've had occasion to use it and find it working or not for myself.Even though you can't see the problem, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.</blockquote>There are 9 shard quests that can be soloed by a brawler.</blockquote>I stand corrected on the shard issue. Thank you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cynicisim

07-22-2009, 10:14 PM

<cite>Xerq@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>There are 9 shard quests that can be soloed by a brawler.</blockquote>I stand corrected on the shard issue. Thank you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I want to be corrected also. Please send a tell. My monk, MC/Legendary/T1 gear with epic cannot kill the key mobs. If it is a quest of clickies such as you can get in Everfrost instances.. one would need to open all the doors first.

Lithran

07-22-2009, 11:43 PM

Is that nine shard quests a day/week or in total? Because nine won't get me much when I get to 80 :<

Blu

07-23-2009, 12:42 PM

Back on topic. I think probably the simplest, easiest way to fix our group desirability would be to add something extra to our stances, and maybe tweak everburning.Defensive stance: Add another 10% armor effectivenessOffensive stance: Add a decent dmg proc (on top of existing bonuses), probably something with only moderate damage, but with a high percentage to proc. Call it "Found an Opening" or something.Everburning: Change haste to be dps or DA or some of both (either seem suited to the name)This should give us a little boost. Then we can see where we are from there.Granted I never use defensive unless absolutely forced to because of the loss of dps (aka aggro), but the extra mit could help those with marginal gear, esp for that last named mob in an instance when you can burn peel and rescue if needed.Easy, simple changes.Edit: Oh yeah, lessen the reuse on our group taunt by a lot.

sensie

07-28-2009, 10:55 AM

There are a couple fo different issues for me personally. 1st is, what role does the monks serve, that another class can't server, tank, DPS, Support, sure we can do all, but other classes are preferred. 2nd is everything is becoming more and more generic and cookie cutter like, that most classes in the game are having the exact same AA choices and gear, well because its the way to min and max your gear/dps/raid/group/heal etc....... 3rd is the classes are getting pigeon holed because of perceptions and encounter design, in other words groups need to focus on min and maxing because dps is required take for example a fairly easy group instance Najenas Hollow, if you don't have the dps the reformed mage (last named) is much much harder or in Ravenscale Resp the mob where you are shot up in the air if you don't have the DPS for the end burn forget it there for as soon as there is a focus on DPS it elminates certian classes cause they are middle of the road. To answer the question where the monk should go a defined role, how to accomplish this, tweak avoidence tanking a bit to become more reliable so healers will not have such spike damage, redesign our AA's that once a choice is made, that we are made into a viable choice, for example if we choose tanking then we are able to tank with plate fighters if we choose DPS then we become viable tier 2 dsp, allow it so are choices define what we are and none of the hybrid stuff, in other words i can sort of dps and tank at the same time, this would give us defined roles. You could even through in a 3rd choice of a support role, therefor we keep the dps at tank levels, the tanking would be non existant, but this would ehance buffs give more buffs etc......

Aull

07-28-2009, 03:50 PM

<cite>sensie wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a couple fo different issues for me personally. 1st is, what role does the monks serve, that another class can't server, tank, DPS, Support, sure we can do all, but other classes are preferred. 2nd is everything is becoming more and more generic and cookie cutter like, that most classes in the game are having the exact same AA choices and gear, well because its the way to min and max your gear/dps/raid/group/heal etc....... 3rd is the classes are getting pigeon holed because of perceptions and encounter design, in other words groups need to focus on min and maxing because dps is required take for example a fairly easy group instance Najenas Hollow, if you don't have the dps the reformed mage (last named) is much much harder or in Ravenscale Resp the mob where you are shot up in the air if you don't have the DPS for the end burn forget it there for as soon as there is a focus on DPS it elminates certian classes cause they are middle of the road. To answer the question where the monk should go a defined role, how to accomplish this, tweak avoidence tanking a bit to become more reliable so healers will not have such spike damage, redesign our AA's that once a choice is made, that we are made into a viable choice, for example if we choose tanking then we are able to tank with plate fighters if we choose DPS then we become viable tier 2 dsp, allow it so are choices define what we are and none of the hybrid stuff, in other words i can sort of dps and tank at the same time, this would give us defined roles. You could even through in a 3rd choice of a support role, therefor we keep the dps at tank levels, the tanking would be non existant, but this would ehance buffs give more buffs etc......</blockquote>I agree with your post here. I would like to mention that guardians, zerkers, and bruisers are having the same thoughts on their class boards. Most plate tanks are very close tanking wise with the exception of sk's being the best of them all for the all around performance. Paladins I feel are being brought up to where they need to be in tanking and dps.Aoe aggro seems to be where the monk, bruiser, and guardian suffer. These could be easily fixed with minor implimentation to the dragonrage proc of the monk to become encounter instead of single target, and bruisers manhandle as examples. Yet nothing has been done with those.As far as aa's go I would say that you are right. What was once class defining abilities like the monks tsunmai is now being shared with other tanks due to possibly other class jealousy. It should not have been done but that issue has exsisted now for awhile.Tough to have any individuality when sharing similar abilities continues to happen.

Blu

07-29-2009, 12:04 PM

Well, after tanking a bit more TSO, I think the monk's main failing as a tank right now is lack of aoe aggro. In TSO instances, this dwarfs any other inadequacies we might have atm, since all TSO instances have aoe encounters. Most instances have them in spades, but all instances have them.If you have any aoe class in your group (e.g. warlock), it's pretty much a given they are going to pull aggro at some point. If you get adds, it's even worse, because you can't use your 1 group taunt on both groups, and your 3 aoe CAs (1 from AA), aren't going to be enough to keep aggro. Crane flock with Dragon Rage active might keep you with aggro, but crane flock is an endline brawler AA, requires a certain positioning to hit all the mobs (assuming you have aggro to position them), and is only available every 3 mins.At best case, it's painful to tank TSO (aoe) instances as a monk, and you can't always keep group aggro even then.What we really need at the moment is a blue (aoe) taunt.

Zreck

08-31-2009, 04:42 AM

I agree with putting us back where we began. DPS tank. I was fine from the very beginning that I was not going to be the best tank. I wanted to DPS, with the ability to tank if the occasion arose. In my opinion, no other tank should DPS higher than us, nor should we DPS as high as scouts (maybe closer to Bards). I believe our DPS should be close to Casters (overall, not in burst damage). I remember the days where monks were effective tanks when we had to be, but were never complete replacements for Guardians. Now, it sounds like monks can barely tank green ^^^s.

BChizzle

09-01-2009, 05:57 AM

<cite>Zreck wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with putting us back where we began. DPS tank. I was fine from the very beginning that I was not going to be the best tank. I wanted to DPS, with the ability to tank if the occasion arose. In my opinion, no other tank should DPS higher than us, nor should we DPS as high as scouts (maybe closer to Bards). I believe our DPS should be close to Casters (overall, not in burst damage). I remember the days where monks were effective tanks when we had to be, but were never complete replacements for Guardians. Now, it sounds like monks can barely tank green ^^^s.</blockquote>Monks tank fine. People here tend to overexagerate things. We are also the top single target dps tanks. As a monk not only will you be able to tank green ^^^'s you can probably solo them.

Wildfury77

10-20-2009, 05:49 AM

I agree with the last poster....Most of the problems with monks tanking is the lack of knowledge and skepticism of players, including (sadly) many monks on this forum!!I found that once i had hit 200 AA (specced correctly) and full T3 armor ( I did WOE a lot!! ) + myth ---> I could MT pretty much every TSO zone with 1 healer. Guk3, EA in JW, NAsylum, RRepos.....all cake TBH. Whilst i would not claim to tank as well as an SK I hardly think that we are that bad!!!A few tips:1) Get aITEM -839770960 914193883:Signet of Vampire Kind/a --> Its good for all MTs but absolutely awesome for a tank with high deflection.......2) AOE agro - Really have to go down the wisdom line until last ability --> 1 extra AOE, AOE proc and Crane Flock.3) Grouping - It makes sense to have as many from Dirge/Coercer/Swashie/Assassin in your group as possible --> In that order of priority. Hate transfer is SO useful and as a monk the Dirge/Coercer buffs will enhance your tanking and DPS very well.4) Choice of healer - Shaman!! Whilst a raid geared Warden or Templar will keep you up just fine shamans are our safest choice, especially if not geared out. Wards + High Avoidance works well.5) Spike damage - 5 AA in Mediative Healing, 5 AA in our dmg reduction AA. 10 AA in Iron Stance. Maximize your mitigation and HPs. The T3 WOE cloak from Aiden, mythical, etc. 6) Practice!! I've MT'd and Tanked on raids for as long as i can remember - but i've done that ALL the way up from lvl 1. I know the zones, the strats, I turn the MOBs, I know which ones have KBs. I time Tsunami, Bob and Weave and Iron Stance so that I'm only semi-vulnerable for 30-40secs in a 4min fight ---> and warn the healer in voice when my temps are down.Theres no reason that you can't MT well and DPS well!! We are a hybrid class and still great fun <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />