Im giving up tanking for groups... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Gang

06-15-2009, 10:15 AM

I been back on Eq2 for less than 3 weeks after nearly 2 year break. I got a level 80 guardian kitted out in mosty RoK and now a few TSO gear. I have tried a few instances in TSO and well its been a disaster from the off. I look at other tanks armor and see that they mit is nearly 200 more than mine (mine is around 500 - 600 all legendary and all level 77 to 80). Another point is that I used to tank all instances in KoS, EoF when they first came out without a problem.I have tried to tank the TSO instances and been mosty wiped and being accused of being a rubbish tank and replaced. Im not rubbish, I know my class, how to tank, I know how to pull, how to turn mobs so the mobs back is facing the group etc, I know what each and every spell is for for my guardian and how to use them. My spells are mostly Adept 3 and a few masters. But still im finding it hard to keep aggro, even tho im taunting, auto-attackng, spamming attacks etc.Like some group memebers are pointing out to me that my armor is just too weak and im tanking well but agian it comes down to my armor. But my problem is that how im I suspose to get top quailty armor if groups don't want me to tank for them and what group wants a guardian to DPS and take up space in a group.Im doing the shards quests and so far got 6 shards, but its slow going and its getting very boring. The T1 shard armor in moors doesn't seem as good as the armor I already have. I feel like the game as got so hard and being away for such a long time is keeping me back. On a good note some groups I have tanked for and fail have been really nice and understanding, replacing me as Tank but keeping me in the group<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />. But im getting to a point of quiting the game again.

Beghauns

06-15-2009, 10:37 AM

It can be quite rough for a guard in tso. The t2 shard gear is quite good mitigation wise due to the + mit increases on it. Aggro is rough even with my gear unless you have a transfer and a dirge, but then I'm not the best aa spec for dps more raid survival.

Maebus

06-15-2009, 10:59 AM

Maybe your problem is you are grouping with bad DPS? I find it hard to believe that your agro is so bad that they cannot use the made for children threat meter to find your line and not cross it. Or is it that you are dying through the encounter too often?

RafaelSmith

06-15-2009, 11:18 AM

<cite>Ganger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I been back on Eq2 for less than 3 weeks after nearly 2 year break. I got a level 80 guardian kitted out in mosty RoK and now a few TSO gear. I have tried a few instances in TSO and well its been a disaster from the off. I look at other tanks armor and see that they mit is nearly 200 more than mine (mine is around 500 - 600 all legendary and all level 77 to 80). Another point is that I used to tank all instances in KoS, EoF when they first came out without a problem.I have tried to tank the TSO instances and been mosty wiped and being accused of being a rubbish tank and replaced. Im not rubbish, I know my class, how to tank, I know how to pull, how to turn mobs so the mobs back is facing the group etc, I know what each and every spell is for for my guardian and how to use them. My spells are mostly Adept 3 and a few masters. But still im finding it hard to keep aggro, even tho im taunting, auto-attackng, spamming attacks etc.Like some group memebers are pointing out to me that my armor is just too weak and im tanking well but agian it comes down to my armor. But my problem is that how im I suspose to get top quailty armor if groups don't want me to tank for them and what group wants a guardian to DPS and take up space in a group.Im doing the shards quests and so far got 6 shards, but its slow going and its getting very boring. The T1 shard armor in moors doesn't seem as good as the armor I already have. I feel like the game as got so hard and being away for such a long time is keeping me back. On a good note some groups I have tanked for and fail have been really nice and understanding, replacing me as Tank but keeping me in the group<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />. But im getting to a point of quiting the game again.</blockquote>Pretty much in the same boat........I think I have tanked one TSO instance in the past two months.The truth is we are the absolute worse of the plate tanks to tank TSO instances. Its not that we cannot get the job done....it just it requires 10x the work for not just us but also for the rest of the group.......and it usually means taking 3x as long to clear most instances. And god forbid you have a group with no form of hate buff or xfer.This far into TSO people are all about maximum efficiency in clearing TSO........DPS do not want to have to hold back. If there is decent SK or Zerker available groups are simply going to take the easier/faster/less stressful way and use one of those to MT.

Landiin

06-15-2009, 03:00 PM

Sad but true

thial

06-15-2009, 05:16 PM

This is preaty much why I've resurrected my pally. I'm sick of the stres it deals on me to do heroic instances with the guard. Tanking instances on my pally is so much more fun than the guard even though my guard has 25% more avoidence 3k more mit and almost 5k more hp self buffed. Of course my pally is in t1 shard gear he doesn't even have his fabled epic but even with all that craptastic gear compared to my guard the pally still holds agro 100% better, which to me is silly. I know this is due to amends but really the gear gap on the two should even out the playing field but it does not. The pally still has an edge and the week points really don't matter when it comes to MOST of the heroic instances, some I would not bring my pally into till he has at least all t2 shard gear and fabled epic IE: PoF maybe ravenscale..

Pikard

06-15-2009, 08:58 PM

SoE, are you taking note? you have a class dying on you because you messed up on the Fighter changes and forgot to put a class back the way you found them.I sure hope you get an earful at the upcoming fan faire!

Davngr1

06-16-2009, 02:03 AM

yea if you play a guard and he's not in fabled with a myth agro is going to be an issue. i don't know if you're wanting to gear out or not but i suggest you get the Tier 1 armor. it's not so great by it self but the bonus is pretty good. try to make your own groups start with the everfrost instances and insist on having a dirge and coercer and take your time on pulls so all your stuff is up.. people will cry but they will cry more if you wipe im sure. for the most what the class is seeing, is that raid guardians recived an awsome mythical( raid reward) and all the other classes cried like little girls, so not only was the mythical changed in to something useless but guard AA was nerfed and other tanks recived just as my survivability tools as guard. it is indeed an abismal time for the non raid guard and brawlers. hope devs stop making the class pay for the great gear and groups that raid guards have available to them.

einhander

06-16-2009, 02:47 AM

Rok was all bout guards..They tanked every raid and instance the best..Tso is crusaders time to shine..Pallys and sk's tanking raids everywhere and the instances just seem made for there aoe abilitys.Next expansion most likey back to guardians again..Crusaders(expecialy SK) Have sucked for ages..Sks are awesome now..pallys ok but need alot of help still.4 more months then it will be guard time to shine again.

RafaelSmith

06-16-2009, 11:26 AM

<cite>einhander wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rok was all bout guards..They tanked every raid and instance the best..Tso is crusaders time to shine..Pallys and sk's tanking raids everywhere and the instances just seem made for there aoe abilitys.Next expansion most likey back to guardians again..Crusaders(expecialy SK) Have sucked for ages..Sks are awesome now..pallys ok but need alot of help still.4 more months then it will be guard time to shine again.</blockquote>more simply put.......SOE fails at class balance.

Yimway

06-16-2009, 11:55 AM

What's your avoidance?I bet the problem is avoidance, not mit...

dirtymeat80

06-16-2009, 12:21 PM

How's your AA looking as well? If you're just coming back, you might be way behind on a curve with all the dps classes that probably have 170+, and have unlocked many new nifty spells & combat arts and are putting out way too much dps than you can keep up with.Slowly but surely work your way up with some Scion & Deep Forge type runs till more shards & more AA come along. Start duel-wield tanking if you can survive it.

Kigneer

06-16-2009, 01:11 PM

<cite>Ganger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have tried to tank the TSO instances and been mosty wiped and being accused of being a rubbish tank and replaced. Im not rubbish, I know my class, how to tank, I know how to pull, how to turn mobs so the mobs back is facing the group etc, I know what each and every spell is for for my guardian and how to use them. My spells are mostly Adept 3 and a few masters. But still im finding it hard to keep aggro, even tho im taunting, auto-attackng, spamming attacks etc.Like some group memebers are pointing out to me that my armor is just too weak and im tanking well but agian it comes down to my armor. But my problem is that how im I suspose to get top quailty armor if groups don't want me to tank for them and what group wants a guardian to DPS and take up space in a group.</blockquote>Every fighter now has to manage hate better. A Guard tank got on my case in stealing aggo from him (he too isn't used to the hate managment changes, and expected to hold it like in RoK). When I run with another Pally, I can't use my amends in the group, as it'll steal the hate from him as MT (where before it was a nice perk, 2 amends one for the healer and the dpser).Secondly, get a ad hoc group together that doesn't mind having 2 tanks in a group. We did the DF instance with 2 Pallys not even in T2, but it required some really tricky healing (Templar solo healing the MT, while the other healer and us Pallys healing the group with group heals and saving Holy Touch on the MT in case the Templar couldn't keep up). It's true TSO is more suited for Crusaders, but the lack of MT dps requires much more management of wards/heals (as good as SKs are for their massive AoEs, they can go down faster than Pallies because they're not healers), which also takes time down on hitting the target(s).The Guardians still have their niche for overall mitigation -- you can still hit the target(s) without downtime healing and warding. The trick in surviving those instances is dedicated heals on you, and managing that hate better (telling the group, especially the dpsers to gradually throw out spells until you locked enough aggro -- 140+ range). Some dpsers are so powerful, a Pally's Holy Ground won't even nudge the enemy away. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

RafaelSmith

06-16-2009, 01:45 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Guardians still have their niche for overall mitigation</blockquote>Yeah its nice to look at those MIT numbers on my screen as the mob(S) are running around from scout to wizard to healer.

MacDre24

06-16-2009, 02:26 PM

I think you might be the skipper of the fail boat for a three reasons.1) Your group sucks. Your healers are bad, or you need 3 instead of 2 to survive because they are bad. I have healed an 80 guardian through some of the TSO instances, where they were wearing either legendary, or mastercrafted with fabled epic. They had no problem holding agro and with a good healer they didnt die.3) Your group set up sucks. You are going to lose agro if your group consists of Wizard, Ranger, Brigand, You (guardian), Healer 1, Healer 2/Illusionist. Try bulding a group with a dirge or troub atleast.2) You are not very good. Learn2play. Classes dps more then they did in KoS and EoF. Fact. AAs give much more dps ability, even to crappy players. Mobs hit harder in TSO then they did in KoS/EoF --> RoK/TSO. SoE has done this every expansion. And its not because of the level cap increase. Go take a hit from a solo mob in JW, then go take a hit in moors. I bet you the mob in moors hits you harder, more often, and double attacks nearly every hit.

Landiin

06-16-2009, 02:37 PM

Its all about the group make up for guards and their hate. If you have no hate transfer and no one is stilling agro from you then they are holding back or they need upgrading. That is fact, its not about l2p its about group stacking..

Davngr1

06-16-2009, 03:28 PM

<cite>einhander wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rok was all bout guards..They tanked every raid and instance the best..Tso is crusaders time to shine..Pallys and sk's tanking raids everywhere and the instances just seem made for there aoe abilitys.Next expansion most likey back to guardians again..Crusaders(expecialy SK) Have sucked for ages..Sks are awesome now..pallys ok but need alot of help still.4 more months then it will be guard time to shine again.</blockquote> yes SK where lacking something in RoK, yes single target tanks like pallys and guards shined in RoK but in no way where guardians with out a MYTHICAL weapon overpowerd. you can not say that and not be completely wrong.

Dareena

06-16-2009, 04:33 PM

<cite>Maebus@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe your problem is you are grouping with bad DPS? I find it hard to believe that your agro is so bad that they cannot use the made for children threat meter to find your line and not cross it. </blockquote>Well to be honest, it's rough for a new tank in TSO. Especially for Guards. The main issues aren't the threat meter, but really about how great the difference is between the dps and the tank.For example, I have a guardian friend. Slowly over TSO, he's managed to get this T2 armor. This past weekend, he finally got his Fabled Epic. (He refuses to leave his small family guild and sadly doesn't network.) Up until then, I would steal aggro from him by simply turning on auto attack and using 1-2 medium damage combat arts at my disposal. Why would that happen? Quite simply, our mechanics based capabilities where in completely other ball games. (For the purposes of this discussion, I'm not going to address the subject of skill.) I am a mythical wielding brigand who's almost completely mastered out. Also I'm wearing T2-T4 armor and various pieces of fabled jewelry. When compared to his masterless character, is there really any surprise that I steal aggro from him constantly? As if this isn't a big enough issue, my 200 AA greatly outweighed his 160 AA.My point is that gear disparity is a real issue. So is your AA count. If you've been out of the loop for a while, you're playing in a completely different league than the rest of the people who've been constantly improving themselves. That's just a fact of this game.----------To the OP. If you really want to play catch up, join a good guild that will be patient with you. Through them, you should also have some opportunities to do gray zone shard runs. Though SOE has made an official statement that they now frown on gray zoning for shards, they've never accompanied it with any sort of penalty beyond attempted peer pressure. If you're trying to play catch up and need to be power leveled for shards, gray zoning is a real way to go.Also make sure that you get ahold of your Fabled Epic. (If you need a temporary weapon, a Weaponsmith can always make you a cheap 4.0 delay slashing weapon for x3 Chunk of Void Metal via a faction recipe.) Between T2 armor, T2 jewelry, your Fabled Epic, and all Ad3 arts, you should be in really good shape. Once at that callibur, you should also be able to start joining the various pick up raids for your Mythical Epic. Also make sure to understand and take advantage of the Fabled adornments out there. It's amazing when you see just how quickly they stack up on each other.

Davngr1

06-16-2009, 04:43 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maebus@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe your problem is you are grouping with bad DPS? I find it hard to believe that your agro is so bad that they cannot use the made for children threat meter to find your line and not cross it. </blockquote>Well to be honest, it's rough for a new tank in TSO. Especially for Guards. The main issues aren't the threat meter, but really about how great the difference is between the dps and the tank.For example, I have a guardian friend. Slowly over TSO, he's managed to get this T2 armor. This past weekend, he finally got his Fabled Epic. (He refuses to leave his small family guild and sadly doesn't network.) Up until then, I would steal aggro from him by simply turning on auto attack and using 1-2 medium damage combat arts at my disposal. Why would that happen? Quite simply, our mechanics based capabilities where in completely other ball games. (For the purposes of this discussion, I'm not going to address the subject of skill.) I am a mythical wielding brigand who's almost completely mastered out. Also I'm wearing T2-T4 armor and various pieces of fabled jewelry. When compared to his masterless character, is there really any surprise that I steal aggro from him constantly? As if this isn't a big enough issue, my 200 AA greatly outweighed his 160 AA.My point is that gear disparity is a real issue. So is your AA count. If you've been out of the loop for a while, you're playing in a completely different league than the rest of the people who've been constantly improving themselves. That's just a fact of this game.----------To the OP. If you really want to play catch up, join a good guild that will be patient with you. Through them, you should also have some opportunities to do gray zone shard runs. Though SOE has made an official statement that they now frown on gray zoning for shards, they've never accompanied it with any sort of penalty beyond attempted peer pressure. If you're trying to play catch up and need to be power leveled for shards, gray zoning is a real way to go.Also make sure that you get ahold of your Fabled Epic. (If you need a temporary weapon, a Weaponsmith can always make you a cheap 4.0 delay slashing weapon for x3 Chunk of Void Metal via a faction recipe.) Between T2 armor, T2 jewelry, your Fabled Epic, and all Ad3 arts, you should be in really good shape. Once at that callibur, you should also be able to start joining the various pick up raids for your Mythical Epic. Also make sure to understand and take advantage of the Fabled adornments out there. It's amazing when you see just how quickly they stack up on each other.</blockquote> lol you assume too much. not every dps is myth/fabled and what the problem with guards is, is that thy lost DMG then had their abilitys given to all other plate tanks and recived nothing in return.. yes they are the worst of all the plate tanks right now because they whre only ok before TSO. only RAID GEARD guardians with MYTHICALS where ahead of other tanks.

TygerMeow

06-16-2009, 05:09 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>To the OP. If you really want to play catch up, join a good guild that will be patient with you. Through them, you should also have some opportunities to do gray zone shard runs. Though SOE has made an official statement that they now frown on gray zoning for shards, they've never accompanied it with any sort of penalty beyond attempted peer pressure. If you're trying to play catch up and need to be power leveled for shards, gray zoning is a real way to go.Also make sure that you get ahold of your Fabled Epic. (If you need a temporary weapon, a Weaponsmith can always make you a cheap 4.0 delay slashing weapon for x3 Chunk of Void Metal via a faction recipe.) Between T2 armor, T2 jewelry, your Fabled Epic, and all Ad3 arts, you should be in really good shape. Once at that callibur, you should also be able to start joining the various pick up raids for your Mythical Epic. Also make sure to understand and take advantage of the Fabled adornments out there. It's amazing when you see just how quickly they stack up on each other.</blockquote>I agree. This has always been a gear-based game, but now it's massively so. On a level playing field the guard is tough to play these days relative to other tanks, as people have pointed out. But as you stated, you are not even three weeks back after a very long time away. You are simply behind on the gear curve (not to mention AA and esp taunt masters are helpful, but not as good DPS aggro management these days). No amount of skill on your part is going to overcome getting hit by massive damage by TSO bosses because your MIT, resists and especially critical MIT isn't up to par (check out this bonus stat, even on T1 fighter shard armor).In previous expansions you could have expected to level up, buy some mastercrafted gear and tank a lot of heroic zones, but not so now. Even with full T2 and your epic, I think people have indicated things won't be easy - but you will find them a lot easier.In addition to working with your guild, and getting grey shards, I would suggest offering to mentor people. While not as prevalent as group invites at 80, you occasionally see people asking for a shard instance group at 78 or whatever, or with people at 80 and others somewhere else in the mix. If you do a zone below 80, you only get one shard, but the daily double will still net you three. This will allow you to learn each zone and named strat without so much pressure.We ran Deep Forge the other day at around 60 with 5 people by mentoring a bit lower, then mentoring the tank and everyone who could up a bit higher. This allowed some 'new' people and lower levels to experience the zone and learn it with more room for error and lesser gear.

RafaelSmith

06-16-2009, 05:19 PM

<cite>Tyger@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>To the OP. If you really want to play catch up, join a good guild that will be patient with you. Through them, you should also have some opportunities to do gray zone shard runs. Though SOE has made an official statement that they now frown on gray zoning for shards, they've never accompanied it with any sort of penalty beyond attempted peer pressure. If you're trying to play catch up and need to be power leveled for shards, gray zoning is a real way to go.Also make sure that you get ahold of your Fabled Epic. (If you need a temporary weapon, a Weaponsmith can always make you a cheap 4.0 delay slashing weapon for x3 Chunk of Void Metal via a faction recipe.) Between T2 armor, T2 jewelry, your Fabled Epic, and all Ad3 arts, you should be in really good shape. Once at that callibur, you should also be able to start joining the various pick up raids for your Mythical Epic. Also make sure to understand and take advantage of the Fabled adornments out there. It's amazing when you see just how quickly they stack up on each other.</blockquote>I agree. This has always been a gear-based game, but now it's massively so. On a level playing field the guard is tough to play these days relative to other tanks, as people have pointed out. But as you stated, you are not even three weeks back after a very long time away. You are simply behind on the gear curve (not to mention AA and esp taunt masters are helpful, but not as good DPS aggro management these days). No amount of skill on your part is going to overcome getting hit by massive damage by TSO bosses because your MIT, resists and especially critical MIT isn't up to par (check out this bonus stat, even on T1 fighter shard armor).In previous expansions you could have expected to level up, buy some mastercrafted gear and tank a lot of heroic zones, but not so now. Even with full T2 and your epic, I think people have indicated things won't be easy - but you will find them a lot easier.In addition to working with your guild, and getting grey shards, I would suggest offering to mentor people. While not as prevalent as group invites at 80, you occasionally see people asking for a shard instance group at 78 or whatever, or with people at 80 and others somewhere else in the mix. If you do a zone below 80, you only get one shard, but the daily double will still net you three. This will allow you to learn each zone and named strat without so much pressure.We ran Deep Forge the other day at around 60 with 5 people by mentoring a bit lower, then mentoring the tank and everyone who could up a bit higher. This allowed some 'new' people and lower levels to experience the zone and learn it with more room for error and lesser gear.</blockquote>While its true that gear and AAs matters a great deal... For Guardians, unless they are in a guild that is either at the same level in terms of progression or one that enjoys filling charity slots its going to be hard to attain the level of gear required to overcome the disadvantages we face in tanking TSO. Ive gotten my 200AAs, some decent gear and spent some time trying to maximize what I can do with what I have and with the exception of a few of the easier TSO instance.....TSO is still a lesson in frustration for me and my group. Still can't MT without at a minimum one form of hate xfer.....and the rest of the group hand picked to exclude high DPSers and AEers.

Kigneer

06-16-2009, 05:20 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Guardians still have their niche for overall mitigation</blockquote>Yeah its nice to look at those MIT numbers on my screen as the mob(S) are running around from scout to wizard to healer.</blockquote>At least you have it.At least you can tank without having to ward and heal as that is suppose to compensate for not having MIT.At least you have more dps than a Pally as well (my little 27 level Guardian can blaze through instances I couldn't at level without dying).Every class has their woe stories, but Guardians still have their MIT (something I'm sorely lacking even in T1 armor).

motogp

06-16-2009, 06:15 PM

This is a good one. In lvl 70-79 chat...."player1 says to lvl 70-79" ......Group seeking SK for instancesruns pst. Guardians arnt even 2nd choice. As far as instance groups go.. Guards arnt wanted. Including myself, when i play my Brigand i want a zerker or SK mting.

RafaelSmith

06-16-2009, 06:29 PM

<cite>motogpgp wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is a good one. In lvl 70-79 chat...."player1 says to lvl 70-79" ......Group seeking SK for instancesruns pst. Guardians arnt even 2nd choice. As far as instance groups go.. Guards arnt wanted. Including myself, when i play my Brigand i want a zerker or SK mting.</blockquote>LOL I am to the point where I prefer a Zerker or SK tanking...at least that way I don't feel guilty over the slow runs, wipes and deaths the rest of the group has to edure.

Rahatmattata

06-16-2009, 06:43 PM

<cite>einhander wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rok was all bout guards..They tanked every raid and instance the best..You were better off having a pally or zerker tank RoK heroic stuff.Next expansion most likey back to guardians again..4 more months then it will be guard time to shine again.I predict next expansions SK will finally seige the MT slot, guards will be utterly useless for all content, bruiser will be nasty OP and monks will be behind bruisers and extremely [Removed for Content]. Zerkers will still be OTs and be ok heroic tanks with coercer dirge + transfer... assuming heavy aoe content. Otherwise garbage.I'll probably be wrong but that's my guess.It would be nice if one day I could see in world chat "Solid group with high dps and mythicals needs tank" and not cringe.</blockquote>

Davngr1

06-16-2009, 10:56 PM

Gang

06-17-2009, 06:10 PM

some good advice here, I am looking into my AA's and seaching these forums for more advice and help. Thanks all..<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Gang

06-21-2009, 08:04 AM

I tanked DF last night and it was a success<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />, The group only died twice due to me not knowing about how the names attack. I was told with the last name that you need to keep moving backwards after dieding by his hands.But my group was made up from Mystic, Warden, Dirge, Nerco, warlock. I still think I need 2 healers for DF until I get more and better armor. But I still found aggro hard to hold, even tho I used every combat art and taunts non-stop, I still lost aggro to the mages. All my taunts are Adept 3 and most all my spells are Adept 3 or better. Maybe my AA's are wrong, I don't know. But im happier now<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Before I did tank DF, I had 11 shards so i got my self T1 gloves and boots. Next im saving up for chest piece and so on or just going for T2 gloves, I don't know yet.

Landiin

06-21-2009, 10:47 AM

Dont just smash your buttons Ganger. Doing that will lower your DPS. Time you CAs with your auto attacks, this will increase your DPS and in turn increase the hate you have.

aislynn00

06-21-2009, 12:45 PM

If you want a better shot at holding aggro, here is what you can do:Tank in offensive stance. Unless you have a lot of +slash gear plus a dirge running Weapon Boon or warden with their combat skill buff on you, you will be chain-missing with your auto-attacks while in defensive. Aim for 500+ in your combat skill of choice (probably slashing, since you will be using your epic).Dual-wield. Yeah, I know you will be sacrificing survivability, but you really won't be holding aggro while wearing a shield unless you have lots of +double attack, +DPS, +attack speed, and +melee crit. Vs harder named, try switching to a shield, then use Reinforcement when you lose aggro the first time, then cycle through your other rescues one at a time when Reinforcement drops and you lose aggro again.Get a dirge or coercer, or better yet, get both. Make absolutely certain they are putting their hate buffs on you. This isn't always going to happen automatically since a lot of dirges, in particular, like to devote their concentration slots to other buffs. If you go with a dirge, ensure they are running Percussion of Stone (10% - 12% less damage on you overall); it is the most important bard buff after Hyran's (the hate buff).Given the class status quo, you really can't expect to hold aggro vs average damage dealers without one of aforementioned classes; you would have to almost match the damage dealers in DPS, which isn't going to happen if they know what they are doing and are equivalently or better equipped.After you have one of the two hate buffers, get an assassin or a swashbuckler. Make certain they put their hate transfer buff on you. These two aren't essential, especially if you have both a dirge and a coercer, but they will make your life one hell of a lot easier while providing great DPS, to boot.Get one or two healers, whatever you need in order to stay alive while dual-wielding in offensive. There is no shame in bringing two healers to TSO zones, especially if you aren't decked out in tier 2, 3, and/or 4 TSO void shard gear.The best healer for you is the templar. They add a buff to you that procs stone skin; it will dramatically improve your survivability (10% - 12% less damage taken). They also boost your combat skills moderately and your HP and mitigation way more than any class aside from defilers. Ask whether they are spec'ed for Shield Ally. Make certain you have the buff (another 5% - 6% less damage taken). I can't stress this enough: Get a templar if you can. Defilers make the second-best healers if survivability is what you need. Lots of HP combined with the best defensive debuffs in the game. A [Removed for Content] defiler won't bother debuffing the mobs, though, which renders the class much less attractive--something to be aware of.Wardens have the highest theoretical healing output of all healers and they come with that great combat skill buff mentioned above. They unfortunately don't have much in the way of defensive buffs, unless they have accumulated enough AA to get the fabulous critical mitigation buff from the Shadow AA tree.Inquisitors, furies, and mystics are great for boosting your DPS, and thus, your hate generation. Make sure the fury is putting their DPS/attack speed proc buff on you if you pick that class as your healer.If you follow the above, you should be able to run instances decently well. You won't hold aggro against mythical'ed wizards or the like, but it shouldn't be too hard to keep aggro where it belongs when grouped with non-raiders.Best of luck to you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

therodge

06-24-2009, 02:54 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Guardians still have their niche for overall mitigation</blockquote>Yeah its nice to look at those MIT numbers on my screen as the mob(S) are running around from scout to wizard to healer.</blockquote>At least you have it.At least you can tank without having to ward and heal as that is suppose to compensate for not having MIT.At least you have more dps than a Pally as well (my little 27 level Guardian can blaze through instances I couldn't at level without dying).Every class has their woe stories, but Guardians still have their MIT (something I'm sorely lacking even in T1 armor).</blockquote>im a paladin and honestly posts like this make us look badthis is blatently wrong crusaders are a slow to wind up but the punch ends up being devistating, paladins in specific arnt half the class they will be at 80 till level 70 with about 100 aa at 80 with knights stance and to a lesser extent faithful strike (tso end line abilility. we will easily outparse and equally skilled guard by atleast 1k dps. significantly more multitarget get both to 80 mentor down to 40 then have them both destroy re see who completes the zone first.guardians have a decent survivability edge pre myth and dont have the power problems we do, that said after your myth and the re2 collection earing guards have a slight spike damage edge but paladins have due to the mythical effect (ultamatly reducing damage by 17-19% were guards its reduced by 5) a better sustained damage absorbtion. guards are used over paladins MT raiding due to their antispike abilitys.equally geared and equally skilled guardian will have without temps maybe 500 more mit then a paladin and once into the curve enough even with temps they might have a total of 3-4% more.its a fact guardians lack a little luster right now and need some tweaking they dont need an overhaul heck a major boost to taunts and 1 more blue aoe would probobly do the trick.

Kordran

06-24-2009, 03:37 PM

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote>we will easily outparse and equally skilled guard by atleast 1k dps. significantly more multitarget</blockquote>I generally agree with what you wrote there, but there are qualifiers to this. A Guardian can easily outparse a comparably geared Paladin against a single t target if he dual-wields. Of course, the flip-side of this is that they lose survivability if they do that; Paladins don't have that option, so they have higher survivability than the dual-wielding Guardian, but a lower top-end threshold on damage.A personal example of this is my Paladin and a friend's Guardian, both with our DPS gear on in PAO. I was putting out at most around 7-8K on the trash. He was consistently putting out 9-10K, sometimes a bit higher. Those aren't awesome numbers, but at the time I think we were about as well matched in terms of gear, etc. that a Paladin and Guardian can be.Now, you're right to point out that when it's encounters with multiple mobs, that's an entirely different story. Those kinds of fights are where Crusaders shine (of course, it's all relative, because Shadowknights can still make Paladins look like chumps when it comes to AE fights).This is why class comparisons can get tricky, particularly when you're talking about different base classes.Edit: And of course, one of the central issues to this particular thread is the difficulty that lesser-geared Guardians have with many of the TSO instances, since they're dominated by multi-mob encounters. I guess the difficulty the developers have is how to help those Guardians out, without overpowering them at the top-end, and without effectively turning them into Berserkers.

Kreagan De'Unerro

06-27-2009, 02:58 AM

For those non-myth, non raid guardians one of your main issues is roughly 80% of level 80s have their Myths on "most" servers. IF you are running around in Leg/Quested gear you can not expect to hold any agro against a Myth DPS class, who has some fable, which many 80s who have been running TSO for months have by now.Your best bet is find a group of friends(though server populations suck and there should be mergers) who you can hang out with and progress yourself. Once you are 80 farm some stuff from RoK instances and quests, then do starting zones for TSO such as DF,Scion,NHT,Befallen,evernight Abbey,etc... You will "eventually" get your T2 shard gear and can start progressing the x2 raids easily.Find a good dirge and templar or warden to be your buddy, and you can create any group from there. You are a tank, you dictat your groups, people expect you to lead them, do it. But do it nicely <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />TSO was not created as a way to bypass RoK content, it is a progression. You will not need your Myth for TSO but get your Fabled version, it is easily attainable. Rememeber adorments help also. We do have to work harder then the other tanks atm, but just hang in there, our time will come once again. One expansion of this game on the bottom for most guards is not the end.

Kordran

06-27-2009, 05:05 AM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>For those non-myth, non raid guardians one of your main issues is roughly 80% of level 80s have their Myths on "most" servers. ... You will not need your Myth for TSO but get your Fabled version, it is easily attainable.</blockquote>I seriously doubt that anywhere close to 80% of level 80 toons out there have their mythical weapon. It may seem that way based on the groups that you normally run with but you're only seeing a small slice of the population. Heck, there's a fair number of level 80 players who don't even have their fabled yet.And I wouldn't describe the Guardian fabled epic as "easily attainable". It is seriously one of the most annoying quest lines out there; the fact that it requires the freakin' Claymore and Screaming Mace HQs doesn't help things, either.

TheMightyTaco

06-27-2009, 12:02 PM

Coming back after a two year break you are definitely seeing that tanking isn't at all what it used to be. I have played with a group of friends consistently and for the most part we've kept our group roles the same. But the game has changed a LOT (understatement) and that fact is creeping in to our playstyle. When we do group with people outside our circle we see exactly what the overall group game has become.Groups need a tank for the tight spots but for the most part they don't need us at all. It seems everyone has decided that all-out DPS from everyone is better than managing a fight and taking it safe. As a "tank" your job ends about 2 seconds after the pull.You'll take the initial barrage from the mobs and then nobody cares after that. A mage or scout will take aggro. You'll try to get aggro back but it won't matter. The healer is keeping up the DPSers and the mobs will be dead in a couple seconds. After a while you'll get used to the new game. You'll always be in offensive stance (except for difficult names) and try to keep your DPS up.If you try to group with random people and tank "old style" you'll be berated quickly. You're too slow. They will start pulling more mobs. There is no such thing as recovery time between fights anymore. There is no downtime before a fight to set up a spot to tank from to avoid adds. There isn't any strategy (with a few exceptions).Your job in 2009 is to pull, DPS, pull, DPS, pull, DPS. If you don't do that job quickly others will be doing to pulling for you. And frankly, most groups have enough DPS to not really care if you are DPSing or not. Your job is then to provide your handful of group-wide buffs.In short, I play my guard when it's my turn. Otherwise, I'm more than happy to play my alts.

lik

06-28-2009, 09:28 AM

<cite>Ulion@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Coming back after a two year break you are definitely seeing that tanking isn't at all what it used to be. I have played with a group of friends consistently and for the most part we've kept our group roles the same. But the game has changed a LOT (understatement) and that fact is creeping in to our playstyle. When we do group with people outside our circle we see exactly what the overall group game has become.Groups need a tank for the tight spots but for the most part they don't need us at all. It seems everyone has decided that all-out DPS from everyone is better than managing a fight and taking it safe. As a "tank" your job ends about 2 seconds after the pull.You'll take the initial barrage from the mobs and then nobody cares after that. A mage or scout will take aggro. You'll try to get aggro back but it won't matter. The healer is keeping up the DPSers and the mobs will be dead in a couple seconds. After a while you'll get used to the new game. You'll always be in offensive stance (except for difficult names) and try to keep your DPS up.If you try to group with random people and tank "old style" you'll be berated quickly. You're too slow. They will start pulling more mobs. There is no such thing as recovery time between fights anymore. There is no downtime before a fight to set up a spot to tank from to avoid adds. There isn't any strategy (with a few exceptions).Your job in 2009 is to pull, DPS, pull, DPS, pull, DPS. If you don't do that job quickly others will be doing to pulling for you. And frankly, most groups have enough DPS to not really care if you are DPSing or not. Your job is then to provide your handful of group-wide buffs.In short, I play my guard when it's my turn. Otherwise, I'm more than happy to play my alts.</blockquote>Perfect, I also feel groups ask for Tanks when grouping just incase they cant kill the end mob with a scout MT. And having to ask in 70-79 chat is way to much of a wast of time for dps, so they just take along a Plate tank just incase.

Kigneer

06-28-2009, 09:43 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>einhander wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rok was all bout guards..They tanked every raid and instance the best..Tso is crusaders time to shine..Pallys and sk's tanking raids everywhere and the instances just seem made for there aoe abilitys.Next expansion most likey back to guardians again..Crusaders(expecialy SK) Have sucked for ages..Sks are awesome now..pallys ok but need alot of help still.4 more months then it will be guard time to shine again.</blockquote> yes SK where lacking something in RoK, yes single target tanks like pallys and guards shined in RoK</blockquote> Although it was planned for Paladins to be single-target tanks, Paladins are not now. Our highest damage comes from AoE spells (Consecrate being the most powerful Pally spell); Smite Evil (double damage to undead AoE); Doom Judgement (dispel and another massive AoE attack) and Trample the melee dps/auto attack. We are defensive utility tanks, and designed for mob control.

therodge

06-28-2009, 09:01 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>einhander wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rok was all bout guards..They tanked every raid and instance the best..Tso is crusaders time to shine..Pallys and sk's tanking raids everywhere and the instances just seem made for there aoe abilitys.Next expansion most likey back to guardians again..Crusaders(expecialy SK) Have sucked for ages..Sks are awesome now..pallys ok but need alot of help still.4 more months then it will be guard time to shine again.</blockquote> yes SK where lacking something in RoK, yes single target tanks like pallys and guards shined in RoK</blockquote> Although it was planned for Paladins to be single-target tanks, Paladins are not now. Our highest damage comes from AoE spells (Consecrate being the most powerful Pally spell); Smite Evil (double damage to undead AoE); Doom Judgement (dispel and another massive AoE attack) and Trample the melee dps/auto attack. We are defensive utility tanks, and designed for mob control.</blockquote>thread hijack incommingsmite evil doesent hit double damage on undead

epyon333

06-28-2009, 10:00 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ganger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I been back on Eq2 for less than 3 weeks after nearly 2 year break. I got a level 80 guardian kitted out in mosty RoK and now a few TSO gear. I have tried a few instances in TSO and well its been a disaster from the off. I look at other tanks armor and see that they mit is nearly 200 more than mine (mine is around 500 - 600 all legendary and all level 77 to 80). Another point is that I used to tank all instances in KoS, EoF when they first came out without a problem.I have tried to tank the TSO instances and been mosty wiped and being accused of being a rubbish tank and replaced. Im not rubbish, I know my class, how to tank, I know how to pull, how to turn mobs so the mobs back is facing the group etc, I know what each and every spell is for for my guardian and how to use them. My spells are mostly Adept 3 and a few masters. But still im finding it hard to keep aggro, even tho im taunting, auto-attackng, spamming attacks etc.Like some group memebers are pointing out to me that my armor is just too weak and im tanking well but agian it comes down to my armor. But my problem is that how im I suspose to get top quailty armor if groups don't want me to tank for them and what group wants a guardian to DPS and take up space in a group.Im doing the shards quests and so far got 6 shards, but its slow going and its getting very boring. The T1 shard armor in moors doesn't seem as good as the armor I already have. I feel like the game as got so hard and being away for such a long time is keeping me back. On a good note some groups I have tanked for and fail have been really nice and understanding, replacing me as Tank but keeping me in the group<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />. But im getting to a point of quiting the game again.</blockquote>Pretty much in the same boat........I think I have tanked one TSO instance in the past two months.The truth is we are the absolute worse of the plate tanks to tank TSO instances. Its not that we cannot get the job done....it just it requires 10x the work for not just us but also for the rest of the group.......and it usually means taking 3x as long to clear most instances. And god forbid you have a group with no form of hate buff or xfer.This far into TSO people are all about maximum efficiency in clearing TSO........DPS do not want to have to hold back. If there is decent SK or Zerker available groups are simply going to take the easier/faster/less stressful way and use one of those to MT.</blockquote>Yeah ive given up tanking with my zerker. Im in T1 armor, 2 sets of T2 jewelery, all experts with a few masters, i have my fabled, and The magma blocker from DF and Harbinger of malcontent from SOH. Most my shards i had do grey runs for, and id have to keep doing that to get my t2 armor. Scion seems to be the only TSO that im geared enough for. ive tried DF several times my group hasnt been able to take down any of the names. either i drop too fast or the DPS'ers have to hold back enough and healers end up running out of power. No one respects that hate meter, unless your fighting a named. If its on trash GL holding aggro.

Raahl

06-29-2009, 11:30 AM

If I could swap out my guardian out for a non-fighter class, I would do it in a heartbeat.Sony has the fighter classes so out of balance at the moment. Solo'ing is a pain and really slow, at least for my guardian it is.Grouping is decent I guess, when you can get one.Raiding is messed up. There's no real reason, other than to just fill a slot, to have more that 2 fighter types on a raid.Right now the only reason to play my Guardian is to get him to level 80 (78 atm), so I can get an exp bonus for my lower level toons. After that I'll probably be playing my Troubador to 80 (76 atm) for even more bonus. Then start playing my Ranger (47 atm).I've been bouncing ideas around in my head for the Fighter classes for some time. I'll try and get it down in a post sometime soon.

Wasuna

06-29-2009, 03:00 PM

I'm an 80 Guardian that has played a Guardian since Beta. I have 14.5K HP, 72% Avoidance, 63% Mitigation solo. I have my mythical, T2 shard armor and jewlery, two fabled items from random raids. I have almost all of my masters with all my taunts being master. I have every single Agro increase and tanking AA that I can get. I have 100% focused on being the best possible tank I can be and I have 200 AA's. I feel I'm pretty well equiped and setup.I have a group of friends, when I play with them things are good and we do thinsg just fine. When I'm on and LFG and get a tank spot in a group. I just flat can't keep agro. One wizard, fine I can moderate them. Any more than that and I'm screwed unless I have serious hate transfer.I have a level 80 Troubador that I play when things are slow. I have been grouped with a Paladin tank with two wizards and a Warlock and I didn't even have to play my agrop reduction song and things died SO FAST! I have been grouped with a SK tank and two Warlocks. No agro reduction song and things died before I could even get behind it most times to start attacking. Neither group had ANY form of agro trasnfer (no dirge, swashbuckler or Coercer) to the tank other than the paladins Amends.I know that as a Guardian, both of those groups would have had the casters die 2-3 times and would have broken up shortly with my Guardian tanking.Agro in this game is screwed. I see it form both sides.As for the benefits of being a Guardian? The ~500 mitigation hits against the soft cap so it's almost nothing. I have nothing going for me other than some friends that are willing to let me tank.If somebody can tell me what I'm doing wrong please do. It would sure make the game fun forme again if I just was missing my "Magic Purple Button of Agro". Right now I just feel like a 3rd wheel and a liability to my group of friends.

RafaelSmith

06-29-2009, 03:28 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm an 80 Guardian that has played a Guardian since Beta. I have 14.5K HP, 72% Avoidance, 63% Mitigation solo. I have my mythical, T2 shard armor and jewlery, two fabled items from random raids. I have almost all of my masters with all my taunts being master. I have every single Agro increase and tanking AA that I can get. I have 100% focused on being the best possible tank I can be and I have 200 AA's. I feel I'm pretty well equiped and setup.I have a group of friends, when I play with them things are good and we do thinsg just fine. When I'm on and LFG and get a tank spot in a group. I just flat can't keep agro. One wizard, fine I can moderate them. Any more than that and I'm screwed unless I have serious hate transfer.I have a level 80 Troubador that I play when things are slow. I have been grouped with a Paladin tank with two wizards and a Warlock and I didn't even have to play my agrop reduction song and things died SO FAST! I have been grouped with a SK tank and two Warlocks. No agro reduction song and things died before I could even get behind it most times to start attacking. Neither group had ANY form of agro trasnfer (no dirge, swashbuckler or Coercer) to the tank other than the paladins Amends.I know that as a Guardian, both of those groups would have had the casters die 2-3 times and would have broken up shortly with my Guardian tanking.Agro in this game is screwed. I see it form both sides.As for the benefits of being a Guardian? The ~500 mitigation hits against the soft cap so it's almost nothing. I have nothing going for me other than some friends that are willing to let me tank.If somebody can tell me what I'm doing wrong please do. It would sure make the game fun forme again if I just was missing my "Magic Purple Button of Agro". Right now I just feel like a 3rd wheel and a liability to my group of friends.</blockquote>I could not have expressed my own feelings better than this. The part i bolded in red is really the only reason I get to do anything.This is exactly how I feel about my Guardian and matches almost exactly the experiences I have had with my guildmates and such.At the moment....with the exception of a few nitch special case encounters(only in raids) I feel I am a liability to them. I have pretty much stopped grouping alltogether....I attend our raids simply because our raid alliance is small and I actually contribute something. But if we had a larger roster of DPS classes or other SKs that are as well played and geared as ours I would probably perma bench myself.

dellaripa

06-29-2009, 05:13 PM

I'm in the same boat as the rest of you-T2 TSO, fabled epic, mix of a3 and masters. My experiences are totally different however in that I'm not having as much trouble. Sure I can't hold AE aggro one bit, but if you have a good healer (which I do) and your group is putting out that much damage, things die fast enough the you shouldn't have a problem. If you're fighting a group of a +3 and two +2's, do your best to hold the +3 on you.When doing TSO with a random group I always ask the DPS who has their mythicals. I always remind them that I'm not raid geared and not an SK, so hold back a tad. Most comply. Moderate and sustain who you think will be the most trouble, and adjust that if needed after a few pulls. If you have a good healer, tank in offensive. Most trash in TSO zones die so fast that you won't notice much of a difference in taking damage, but your DPS will increase by a large amount. Switch to defensive when tanking nameds and rely on your emergency taunts. In all but the longest fights Reinforcement, Rescue, and the TSO emergencies should be more than enough, especially if you invested the AAs in the reduced recast times. If you're a guard you have tower of stone, use it (duh). I can't count how many times that has saved our group.For AA's I went 4-4-8-8 strength for the added hate and taunts. I think it amplifies taunts by 24% which is huge. I 72(?) M2'd my single target taunt which is huge as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but not only does it increase taunt over A3/M1 but it also gets resisted less.Gearwise I finished my T1 set then went straight to the infused jewelry. If you don't raid, most of the infused blows away broker bought stuff, especially in parry/defense and +melee stats. I found that my DPS output doubled after I finished. Also remember to have thick skin. When a group wipes, it's easiest for the group to blame the tank. Sometimes it's our fault often times it's not. If you don't know how to run a TSO zone, look it up on Wiki or ask questions. Many of the nameds have a strategy, which if you don't follow, you'll wipe regardless of how good or bad your gear is. Most importantly have fun, that's what it's all about isn't it?

Raahl

06-29-2009, 05:22 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm an 80 Guardian that has played a Guardian since Beta. I have 14.5K HP, 72% Avoidance, 63% Mitigation solo.</blockquote>Holy Crap Batman!I assume it's the gear that gets you that high. 72% Avoidance!!! Sigh, I will probably never see these numbers.

RafaelSmith

06-29-2009, 06:58 PM

<cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote> Sure I can't hold AE aggro one bit, but if you have a good healer (which I do) and your group is putting out that much damage, things die fast enough the you shouldn't have a problem. If you're fighting a group of a +3 and two +2's, do your best to hold the +3 on you.</blockquote>See I just do not consider that to be a tank class that is working correctly.I guess our surviveability advantage means that we are taking less DMG because the rest of the group gets to "tank" the adds? Im sure healers really love having to heal multiple "tanks" in an instance.

RafaelSmith

06-29-2009, 07:03 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm an 80 Guardian that has played a Guardian since Beta. I have 14.5K HP, 72% Avoidance, 63% Mitigation solo.</blockquote>Holy Crap Batman!I assume it's the gear that gets you that high. 72% Avoidance!!! Sigh, I will probably never see these numbers. </blockquote>Its a mix Gear and AA.....and at 80 those are probably below average numbers for Guardians. Easily matched by other plates without sacrificing aggro.I can reach pretty close to those numbers......but they do not help me one bit doing my job in instances.

Wasuna

06-30-2009, 06:16 PM

Actually, I inspect just about every tank I walk by in raids and just standing around in places. Those stats are pretty much the best I have seen except for the very best raid guild tanks. People just seen the word FABLED and assume it has to be the best for them in that item slot. I have much better stuff on me that is legendary than crap fabled stuff I see people wearing. Now, don't get me wrong. I'd kill for some of that fabled stuff but you have to look close at it.A proper geared tank would have about the same stats as me but with much better resists and specials like + combat art damage, DPS, DA.. etc. I'm only ~50 haste, ~30 DPS and ~35% DA and only around ~400 extra CA damage solo.All that and I still can't hold agro at all.Still waiting to see if anybody can tell me what I'm doing wrong. I honestly want to know how to fix my Guardian. I'm not trying to be simple or anything. I just think if we all look at the problem in a positive way then one of two things will happen:1. We'll find an answer.2. We'll find that there is no answer.I suspect we all know what we'll find but positive attitudes have a much better chance of suscess.

Kigneer

07-01-2009, 07:02 PM

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote>thread hijack incommingsmite evil doesent hit double damage on undead</blockquote> Earlier it had a double the damage if undead. Now, it's used as an huge AoE damage spell (I can top 4k on it, in defensive mode even) on *any* creature. Doom Judgement+Consecrate+Smite Evil+Ancient Wrath on a mob equals = m-a-s-s-i-v-e killing (well over 12k, and not including melee auto-attack and double attack that is around 45%/25% at least end game, that can add an extra 5k). When Paladins deny their AoE abilities to go straight to being mini-guardians they really nerf themselves.

Kigneer

07-01-2009, 07:09 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have much better stuff on me that is legendary than crap fabled stuff I see people wearing. Now, don't get me wrong. I'd kill for some of that fabled stuff but you have to look close at it.</blockquote> True, true, true. The choker I picked up in WoE is fabled, but the stats are pretty dismal (and upgradeable for a 0/6 Tactician's T2 set, which is a waste of shards as 2 items at least are also upgradeable for nominal stat increases for a full set). Rather have +parry and +power regen +AGI than any other stat now. Can't get power regen with parry; and AGI comes at the price of STA, which defeats the reason for having parry in the first place. Always look at the stats not the label first, as there are some legendary items that offer better stats -- at least for the T2 side.

thial

07-01-2009, 08:07 PM

As far as AA goes for instances I run..4-4-8-8 str4-8-8-8 agi4-4-8-1 staI chose 8 in str 4 for instances since you don't always get a dirge and coercer in groups so it does help if you only get one of those support classes and the extra taunt does help in a group situation but almost pointless in raids8 points in agi 2 nets a good 1k hit, with 400 ca damageyou could take 4 points from agi 4 and the one point in sta 4 and get excel stike going but I personally didn't find a need for it..as far as the gaurdian line you can check my eq2players for that its the same in raid or group specand for the tso line5 in swinging strike 5 in o stance and of coursesneering5 in rallying cry 5 in aggressive nature and I put 5 in shielding but you can put it in shield slam for that extra shield bash damage and of course the lame cry of the warrior5 in hateful stike 5 in constitution 5 in strategic assault 4 in reversal and of course get the two endlinesI found this setup to work the best for aoe agro when it comes to my guardalso the 3 set bonus on the t1 t2 t3 what ever you may have is decent to if you can get the mobs to beat on ya for a decent amount of time what i started doing recently is to run into a few groups blue aoe and let the group catchup this way the mobs beat on me a lil before they get into em but it's risky with pu groups or bad healers lol but still if we had just one blue aoe taunt that did lilke 2k on a decent timer and not a 4 max target things would go a lot smoother hell all fighters could get it, should put it in there instead of the stupid riposte mastery in the fighter tso tree...

RafaelSmith

07-02-2009, 05:07 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>As far as AA goes for instances I run..4-4-8-8 str4-8-8-8 agi4-4-8-1 staI chose 8 in str 4 for instances since you don't always get a dirge and coercer in groups so it does help if you only get one of those support classes and the extra taunt does help in a group situation but almost pointless in raids8 points in agi 2 nets a good 1k hit, with 400 ca damageyou could take 4 points from agi 4 and the one point in sta 4 and get excel stike going but I personally didn't find a need for it..as far as the gaurdian line you can check my eq2players for that its the same in raid or group specand for the tso line5 in swinging strike 5 in o stance and of coursesneering5 in rallying cry 5 in aggressive nature and I put 5 in shielding but you can put it in shield slam for that extra shield bash damage and of course the lame cry of the warrior5 in hateful stike 5 in constitution 5 in strategic assault 4 in reversal and of course get the two endlinesI found this setup to work the best for aoe agro when it comes to my guardalso the 3 set bonus on the t1 t2 t3 what ever you may have is decent to if you can get the mobs to beat on ya for a decent amount of time what i started doing recently is to run into a few groups blue aoe and let the group catchup this way the mobs beat on me a lil before they get into em but it's risky with pu groups or bad healers lol but still if we had just one blue aoe taunt that did lilke 2k on a decent timer and not a 4 max target things would go a lot smoother hell all fighters could get it, should put it in there instead of the stupid riposte mastery in the fighter tso tree...</blockquote>Interesting. Thus far every AA spec I have tried to make things better for me for instances has included the INT end-line.Never really thought about maxing AGI 2 to get more DMG out of blue AE.Gonna respec to somthing similar to what you list here and see how it goes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Afterwall, what else am i gonna do for the next 8+ months =P

Raahl

07-06-2009, 10:34 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, I inspect just about every tank I walk by in raids and just standing around in places. Those stats are pretty much the best I have seen except for the very best raid guild tanks. People just seen the word FABLED and assume it has to be the best for them in that item slot. I have much better stuff on me that is legendary than crap fabled stuff I see people wearing. Now, don't get me wrong. I'd kill for some of that fabled stuff but you have to look close at it.A proper geared tank would have about the same stats as me but with much better resists and specials like + combat art damage, DPS, DA.. etc. I'm only ~50 haste, ~30 DPS and ~35% DA and only around ~400 extra CA damage solo.All that and I still can't hold agro at all.Still waiting to see if anybody can tell me what I'm doing wrong. I honestly want to know how to fix my Guardian. I'm not trying to be simple or anything. I just think if we all look at the problem in a positive way then one of two things will happen:1. We'll find an answer.2. We'll find that there is no answer.I suspect we all know what we'll find but positive attitudes have a much better chance of suscess.</blockquote>Time to check your equipment out on eq2players. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />What's your characters name Wasuna?

thial

07-06-2009, 07:09 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Interesting. Thus far every AA spec I have tried to make things better for me for instances has included the INT end-line.Never really thought about maxing AGI 2 to get more DMG out of blue AE.Gonna respec to somthing similar to what you list here and see how it goes <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Afterwall, what else am i gonna do for the next 8+ months =P</blockquote>It took me a while to convince myself to drop INT and try something else I miss the reuse for sure but I notice aoe agro is a lil better but when your grouped with a lock and a conjy with just a swashy things are still very intersting...good luck with the respec, let me know how it works out.

Macross_JR

07-07-2009, 08:14 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, I inspect just about every tank I walk by in raids and just standing around in places. Those stats are pretty much the best I have seen except for the very best raid guild tanks. People just seen the word FABLED and assume it has to be the best for them in that item slot. I have much better stuff on me that is legendary than crap fabled stuff I see people wearing. Now, don't get me wrong. I'd kill for some of that fabled stuff but you have to look close at it.A proper geared tank would have about the same stats as me but with much better resists and specials like + combat art damage, DPS, DA.. etc. I'm only ~50 haste, ~30 DPS and ~35% DA and only around ~400 extra CA damage solo.All that and I still can't hold agro at all.Still waiting to see if anybody can tell me what I'm doing wrong. I honestly want to know how to fix my Guardian. I'm not trying to be simple or anything. I just think if we all look at the problem in a positive way then one of two things will happen:1. We'll find an answer.2. We'll find that there is no answer.I suspect we all know what we'll find but positive attitudes have a much better chance of suscess.</blockquote>Honestly, it sounds like you are focusing too much on defensive stats. Defensive stats isn't going to help you hold agro. The way to hold agro is to build groups to help you where you are hurting(agro), get more offensive stats(you didn't mention your crit%), make sure your aa's are for dps, and hate to say it but learn how to hold agro better with what you got(be it ca rotation, timing ca's, not blowing every snap agro to get something off a dps toon). That is all I can really say. I will say again, I have no issues holding agro against high dps toons when I build a group.Edit: if you want to check out my guardian his name is Githil from the permafrost server.

Wasuna

07-08-2009, 02:21 PM

Oh no. I've played this game to long to ignore DPS for agro in terms of being a good tank. MY solo stats are: DPS~30%, DA ~50%, Haste ~50% and my mele critical is ~30%. I can't really remmember the mele critical but that seems right. I can easily keep agro off a Mythical Conjour pet in Plane Shift (wife is a conjour). Just don't put anybody else in the group that can even remotly do DPS or I'm screwed.Just an update, went into a TSO instance with my Troubador. MT was a SK. He'd run into a room, Agro everything there (like 10 yellow con ^^^ and groups) and then AOE lifetap. I couldn't tell how much the healer was healing but her power never went below 90%.Who the heck said Guardians have an edge in Survivability? I could have run in there with my Guardian but I would have been stomped to the ground and if my healers would have even TRIED to keep me up they would have been killed before me.Now I'll mention the DPS. This SK tank was doing 8-10K DPS on all these fights with all of his AoE on these massive pulls. How the heck does SoE think this is even marginally balanced? I get illusionst buffed and I can't even do 3K DPS when tanking in offensive while duel weilding (Mythical and VP fabled off hand), 100% haste, 80% DA and 2-3 damage shileds on me.Still waiting for somebody to tell me what I'm doing wrong.

tyler001

07-08-2009, 02:48 PM

anyone on here?

RafaelSmith

07-08-2009, 03:37 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh no. I've played this game to long to ignore DPS for agro in terms of being a good tank. MY solo stats are: DPS~30%, DA ~50%, Haste ~50% and my mele critical is ~30%. I can't really remmember the mele critical but that seems right. I can easily keep agro off a Mythical Conjour pet in Plane Shift (wife is a conjour). Just don't put anybody else in the group that can even remotly do DPS or I'm screwed.Just an update, went into a TSO instance with my Troubador. MT was a SK. He'd run into a room, Agro everything there (like 10 yellow con ^^^ and groups) and then AOE lifetap. I couldn't tell how much the healer was healing but her power never went below 90%.Who the heck said Guardians have an edge in Survivability? I could have run in there with my Guardian but I would have been stomped to the ground and if my healers would have even TRIED to keep me up they would have been killed before me.Now I'll mention the DPS. This SK tank was doing 8-10K DPS on all these fights with all of his AoE on these massive pulls. How the heck does SoE think this is even marginally balanced? I get illusionst buffed and I can't even do 3K DPS when tanking in offensive while duel weilding (Mythical and VP fabled off hand), 100% haste, 80% DA and 2-3 damage shileds on me.Still waiting for somebody to tell me what I'm doing wrong.</blockquote>I think in my self buffed DPS/Duel Wield/O-stance setup I run around 84% melee crit, 60%ish DA, 35%ish DPS, 60% HASTE, +750ish CA and its still a nightmare when grouped with serious DPS classes......especially the AE variety.And I too have witnessed the same thing with SKs that in no way show any signs of being disadvanteged in terms of "surviveability", aggro or threat generation. The best of all worlds without any obvious sacrifice.I try to pull as few mobs as possible.......SK guildmate tries to pull as many as possible =P

Giliad

07-08-2009, 04:26 PM

<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/45150-guardian-dummies.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...an-dummies.html</a>this was an excellent article by Fungie and most of the best tanks in the game agree and have commented.

RafaelSmith

07-08-2009, 04:58 PM

<cite>Giliad@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/45150-guardian-dummies.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...an-dummies.html</a>this was an excellent article by Fungie and most of the best tanks in the game agree and have commented.</blockquote>Yes, that is one of the few useful threads on flames.

Yimway

07-08-2009, 05:04 PM

RafaelSmith

07-08-2009, 05:18 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giliad@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/45150-guardian-dummies.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...an-dummies.html</a>this was an excellent article by Fungie and most of the best tanks in the game agree and have commented.</blockquote>Now only if Fungie was a great tank...</blockquote>Well i just used that thread as a guide that made me take a closer look at abilities, casting order and such.And its made me a less sucky tank =P

Giliad

07-08-2009, 06:01 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now only if Fungie was a great tank...</blockquote>I have never grouped with fungie so I cannot say. even with teh best of knowledge some will suck. I am saying the principles are sound.

Yimway

07-08-2009, 07:10 PM

<cite>Giliad@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now only if Fungie was a great tank...</blockquote>I have never grouped with fungie so I cannot say. even with teh best of knowledge some will suck. I am saying the principles are sound.</blockquote>Actually, I commented before reading the thread. The thread is an ok introduction to tanking, mostly stuff you should have learned long before reaching 80. I certainly don't agree with everything put forth there, but there is enough good stuff there.Fungie's a nice guy, just not on the top of my list of people I'd go to for specific guardian info.

Giliad

07-08-2009, 08:08 PM

Well the thread is called Guardian for dummies. Meaning that it is a basic understanding not the indepth knowledge of a serious hard-core tank

Bruener

07-09-2009, 06:08 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just an update, went into a TSO instance with my Troubador. MT was a SK. He'd run into a room, Agro everything there (like 10 yellow con ^^^ and groups) and then AOE lifetap. I couldn't tell how much the healer was healing but her power never went below 90%.</blockquote>Yeah, this sounds pretty realist LOL....unless it is a well-geared raid SK I don't buy it....but than you are comparing Apples and Oranges at that point.

Wasuna

07-10-2009, 02:22 PM

He was actually geared to the hilt. One of the best geared tanks I have see in a long time. My Guardian still had more avoidance and almost identical mitigation. He did have 400 more HP than my Guardian but I didn't get to check if he had some buffs before we all gathered up.All that did was impact how many of the yellow ^^^ he could take at a time. If my Guardian had more than two without a mezer a healer was going to die. Heck, I can take 3-4 easy if I can keep agro. Hence the the problem with the Guardian and the point of this thread.This SK would run in, agro the whole room and then cast his AOE lifetap. He would be in the orange by then and would instantly pop to full health and have locked down agro from the start. The only time he died is when he got stunned and couldn't cast. The healer tried to heal and died in like 1 second flat. Me being the wimpy bard type I was at the time clicked evac.You can say it's unrealistic if you want. All I can say is that I sat there tapping my finger on my desktop watching this happen being irritated for my Guardians sake while enjoying the super fast run through the instance with my Troubador.

motogp

07-10-2009, 07:43 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote</cite> Sk's tank the whole Gynok encounter. Gynok and all the adds from the pull till the mob is dead and not 1 player will die from taking aggro.I see this happen every time gynok is up. If the Sk isnt on that night or what ever, It takes 2 or even 3 other tank types to do the job of 1 SK. And thats only if our Guardians log in. TBH the Guards are not missed at all if they dont log in.

Rahatmattata

07-11-2009, 03:57 AM

TBH the only thing guards are really useful for is tanking a single mob that would kill other fighters. That is pretty few and far between. I know in my guild the shadowknight and zerker are capable of tanking any mob I can. But I do have more survivability than they do... At least that secures my raid slot for now. I can't tank waves of adds worth beans, and people rip aggro sometimes even on single target with standard tank group, but I do seem to be pretty good at not dying for the most part. My many threat snaps and sentry watch give me an edge over the other tanks on memwiping mobs... and the immunity proc on myth is nice to have on some fights.For farm status mobs and WoE... I'm definately not needed and would probably do the raid a service by sitting out, but on progression mobs, I feel they are happy to have me around. They get to focus on executing scripts correctly and not have to worry about me going down due to a string of bad avoidance rolls or a double attack. We still have a couple more tools on shorter recast for dealing with incoming damage than other tanks. We just need a couple of tweaks that really shouldn't take more than a solid work-day to implement and send to test.

Landiin

07-11-2009, 05:46 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just an update, went into a TSO instance with my Troubador. MT was a SK. He'd run into a room, Agro everything there (like 10 yellow con ^^^ and groups) and then AOE lifetap. I couldn't tell how much the healer was healing but her power never went below 90%.</blockquote>Yeah, this sounds pretty realist LOL....unless it is a well-geared raid SK I don't buy it....but than you are comparing Apples and Oranges at that point.</blockquote>This just shows how well you know the SK class.. I have had scrub SK go into NHT while I was on my dirge and tank the entire zone with ease. I mean DPS in this game is high all the SK has to do is live through the 1st wave of wards, blood leader and a couple of heals by this time the entire encounter is dead. So with the SK 100% agro who cares if they are geared to the tilt. Yes NHT isn't a hard zone but it is for none t1 or partly t1 shard geared tanks.

Moralpanic

07-20-2009, 01:23 PM

If you think mit is the problem, then it's obvious you don't know your class as well as you think you do.And it is possible to tank TSO in RoK or MC gear. We didn't just get TSO with a /claim that gave us a full set of TSO gear. I recently leveled an SK myself, and i was able to tank TSO once i hit 80 (granted, SKs are better tanks than guards atm).As a guardian, i always form the groups. Most other players are clueless as to what other classes bring to guardians, so if i make the group, i can at least put somebody with hate transfer in there like a dirge, coercer, swashy. So part of being a 'good guardian' is knowing how to put the groups together.My advice for you if you're just hitting TSO is get a hate transfer class in the group. You also NEED to go offensive unless you're fighting orange mobs (which you shouldn't be if you just hit 80). If you find you're having survivability issues in offensive, then get 2 healers to keep you up. But you need the DPS and hitrate that offensive stance gives you to hold aggro. YOUR TAUNT BUTTONS ARE USELESS, so don't even bother using them (and definitely do not depend on them).

Wasuna

07-20-2009, 02:57 PM

Or, get an SK to tank for you, load the group up with the highest DPS you can think of and kill things 10 times faster.That is the point of this thread. Sure, Guardians can tank. We even do it a tiny bit better than any of the other tank classes. The issue is why would anybody ever want to have a Guardian tank when they can get a SK, a healer and 4 pure DPS classes and clear whole instance in 20 minutes? The Guardian group would take at least twice as long as that. And, if you even tried to go faster than that with a Guardian it would mean multiple DPS deaths due to lack of ability to keep agro on groups even with hate transfer.Please don't come here and tell us we don't know what we are doing. We are just as smart as you and know how to make a group. Why do I have to make a special group for just a tiny bit extra ability to tank a single target mob, and totally [Removed for Content] the group on group mobs, when others can easy mode things 10 times faster?

RafaelSmith

07-20-2009, 03:43 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or, get an SK to tank for you, load the group up with the highest DPS you can think of and kill things 10 times faster.That is the point of this thread. Sure, Guardians can tank. We even do it a tiny bit better than any of the other tank classes. The issue is why would anybody ever want to have a Guardian tank when they can get a SK, a healer and 4 pure DPS classes and clear whole instance in 20 minutes? The Guardian group would take at least twice as long as that. And, if you even tried to go faster than that with a Guardian it would mean multiple DPS deaths due to lack of ability to keep agro on groups even with hate transfer.Please don't come here and tell us we don't know what we are doing. We are just as smart as you and know how to make a group. Why do I have to make a special group for just a tiny bit extra ability to tank a single target mob, and totally [Removed for Content] the group on group mobs, when others can easy mode things 10 times faster?</blockquote>My thoughts exactly.There are alot of SKs that are in denial on these forums. They seem to not grasp what a world of difference it is between grouping with a healer and any 4 and blowing thru a zone with no deaths -vs- having to have the perfect group and 2 healers only to end take 3 times as long to do the same zone. Then to add insult to injury that same SK is perfectly viable for just about any raid mob.I can only hope some adjustments are coming down the pike for all fighters...both buffs.....and some much needed reductions. Something has to give.

Kordran

07-20-2009, 05:00 PM

<cite>Moralpanic wrote:</cite><blockquote>YOUR TAUNT BUTTONS ARE USELESS, so don't even bother using them (and definitely do not depend on them).</blockquote>Don't depend on them for aggro control, but they're not completely useless. The Guardian single-target taunt has an interrupt component and that is definitely useful against caster mobs. Taunts can also cause certain buffs to proc, and they're fast casting (they won't interfere with a CA rotation) and low power usage; no reason not to use them, IMO.

Giliad

07-22-2009, 08:57 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Moralpanic wrote:</cite><blockquote>YOUR TAUNT BUTTONS ARE USELESS, so don't even bother using them (and definitely do not depend on them).</blockquote>Don't depend on them for aggro control, but they're not completely useless. The Guardian single-target taunt has an interrupt component and that is definitely useful against caster mobs. Taunts can also cause certain buffs to proc, and they're fast casting (they won't interfere with a CA rotation) and low power usage; no reason not to use them, IMO.</blockquote>I agree with this as well. not to mention if you are using your CAs and timing correctly there is a couple of seconds that you are not going to have any up. When using taunts it gives some aggro. so rather than wait for your AA or a CA to come up you have time to hit those taunts which will give you a little more hate and generally decrease the hate of the others.

Guy De Alsace

07-24-2009, 05:48 AM

I have 4 level 80', a 75 and my poor little 73 Guard. Putting it bluntly, I'm scared to tank TSO. All the dirt heaped on tanks when they "underperform" is enough to put anyone off tanking for life.I dont know why all the focus has intensified on the tank when you have every other bugger falling over themselves to recklessly outparse each other. Even the healers are at it. In all the previous tiers everyone's roles were well defined and players used to actually do their job/role as a priority rather than a secondary annoyance next to DPS DPS DPS.Pre RoK it was the DPSers who were chastised for always pulling aggro - now its always the tanks fault for not being able to HOLD aggro.Respect...tanking has to be one of the hardest roles in the game. I propose we start a "Hug your Tank" day... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kordran

07-24-2009, 02:04 PM

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have 4 level 80', a 75 and my poor little 73 Guard. Putting it bluntly, I'm scared to tank TSO. All the dirt heaped on tanks when they "underperform" is enough to put anyone off tanking for life.I dont know why all the focus has intensified on the tank when you have every other bugger falling over themselves to recklessly outparse each other. Even the healers are at it. In all the previous tiers everyone's roles were well defined and players used to actually do their job/role as a priority rather than a secondary annoyance next to DPS DPS DPS.Pre RoK it was the DPSers who were chastised for always pulling aggro - now its always the tanks fault for not being able to HOLD aggro.Respect...tanking has to be one of the hardest roles in the game. I propose we start a "Hug your Tank" day... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Tanking has definitely become the most demanding role in the game (with healing close behind at end-game, considering all of the whack-a-mole curing they have to do). What I tell new and returning players is that it's not about the mechanics of tanking itself which are difficult, it's all of the other stuff that tanks are expected to do and know; lead the group, know all of the zones and their encounter scripts, etc. along with the experience and ability to make the run fast and easy on everyone else. And of course, there's the gear issue where "good" tanks are basically experienced raiding tanks with their mythical and set gear; everyone else is either in the "he's alright, but his gear sucks" category, or just considered to be a "bad" tank.

RafaelSmith

07-25-2009, 06:06 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have 4 level 80', a 75 and my poor little 73 Guard. Putting it bluntly, I'm scared to tank TSO. All the dirt heaped on tanks when they "underperform" is enough to put anyone off tanking for life.I dont know why all the focus has intensified on the tank when you have every other bugger falling over themselves to recklessly outparse each other. Even the healers are at it. In all the previous tiers everyone's roles were well defined and players used to actually do their job/role as a priority rather than a secondary annoyance next to DPS DPS DPS.Pre RoK it was the DPSers who were chastised for always pulling aggro - now its always the tanks fault for not being able to HOLD aggro.Respect...tanking has to be one of the hardest roles in the game. I propose we start a "Hug your Tank" day... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Tanking has definitely become the most demanding role in the game (with healing close behind at end-game, considering all of the whack-a-mole curing they have to do). What I tell new and returning players is that it's not about the mechanics of tanking itself which are difficult, it's all of the other stuff that tanks are expected to do and know; lead the group, know all of the zones and their encounter scripts, etc. along with the experience and ability to make the run fast and easy on everyone else. And of course, there's the gear issue where "good" tanks are basically experienced raiding tanks with their mythical and set gear; everyone else is either in the "he's alright, but his gear sucks" category, or just considered to be a "bad" tank.</blockquote>I recently got to witness just what its like for a Guardian that has been away form the game for abit and has tried to play again. I took my Assassin in a group tanked by a guardian from our raiding alliance that has just come back to the game. He knew the instance scripts, he knew the mechanics of his class, where and how to pull yet could not keep aggro despite doing everyting he chould. THe run was SLOW and not easy....we had several other players in group that have pretty much always run with our SK where they dont have to worry about a [Removed for Content] thing....they can DPS DPS DPS without 2nd thought and get thru the zone is fraction of the time it took this group.The sad part is that although my Guard is better geared than this one was......the run wouldnt have been much better with me MT. Gear, game/encounter knowledge, class knowledge only get you so far before the ugly truth sets in. Healers and DPS have gotten spoiled by the fast, easy-mode-aggro-lock, no deaths runs they get with other tanks (read SK). IMO Aggro should be the responsibilty of the entire group......but thats just not the case with SKs as MT today so everyone has gotten used to not having to behave or worry about aggro.My Guardian is still my first love, my main, the one I would gladly be playing if I had a choice......I love to tank, to lead groups but only when its challenging and fun........not this frustrating BS we have today....im not gonna drag guildmates to some instance for 2+ hours when they could have gone with an SK and done 3 instances in that time with no repair costs.That said......when I am playing my Assassin..i dread having to group with a Guard MT.

Kordran

07-27-2009, 04:28 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The sad part is that although my Guard is better geared than this one was......the run wouldnt have been much better with me MT. Gear, game/encounter knowledge, class knowledge only get you so far before the ugly truth sets in. Healers and DPS have gotten spoiled by the fast, easy-mode-aggro-lock, no deaths runs they get with other tanks (read SK). </blockquote>This kind of dovetails back into the gear issue, mixed with group makeup. I know Guardians that wouldn't have a problem at all, but they're so far ahead of the curve in terms of gear that 98% of players won't ever see. And that's where things are screwed up; things are alright for them at the top end, but the whole issue gets profoundly worse the lower down the tiers of gear that you go. SKs simply don't have that kind of problem on that scale.Whatever changes are made down the road, the developers need to get out of this "flavor of the year" mentality where one particular type of tank performs far beyond all of the others for a given expansion. With RoK, Berserkers betrayed right and left to Guardians. With TSO, legions of Paladins betrayed to Shadowknights. At some point, this has got to stop and some balance needs to be returned to the game; but to do this, they're going to need to be willing to slaughter a few of their sacred cows, such as the whole single-target and multi-target tank concept.

Couching

07-27-2009, 08:32 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The sad part is that although my Guard is better geared than this one was......the run wouldnt have been much better with me MT. Gear, game/encounter knowledge, class knowledge only get you so far before the ugly truth sets in. Healers and DPS have gotten spoiled by the fast, easy-mode-aggro-lock, no deaths runs they get with other tanks (read SK). IMO Aggro should be the responsibilty of the entire group......but thats just not the case with SKs as MT today so everyone has gotten used to not having to behave or worry about aggro.</blockquote>Dpers are supposed to use deggro to help tank keep aggro. That's why they get different forms of deaggro.However, people are spoiled by aoe tanks in this expansion, especially SK. Their easy-mode-aggro-lock on aoe target and single target made single target tanks unwelcome in both heroic and raid content.I have done tanking Gynok adds when all of our aoe tanks didn't show up in raid. We still did great dps as usual. But some dpsers complained that they had to use deaggro when I was tanking. It's STRESSFUL for them to use deaggro. [Removed for Content]~!What's wrong for dpsers to use their deaggro during the fight?

Kordran

07-27-2009, 01:42 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's wrong for dpsers to use their deaggro during the fight?</blockquote>From their perspective, if they're using deagrros, that means they're not at max DPS. One way to think about it is you have a race where the drivers are used to flooring the pedal for the entire race, and the only thing they need to worry about is shifting and steering; then one day, they're put behind the wheel of a car that requires that every time they hit a curve, they also have to use the brakes to reduce their speed, or they crash.And, yes, for the DPS classers, it is a race to see who can top the parse and by how much. That's just the state of the game. Being required to hold back for a "[Removed for Content]" tank is no fun when what you really want to do is full-burn, full-time, and you know for a fact that there are tanks out there that can enable you to do that.The issue is as much about player expectation as it is actual class mechanics. And once players get a taste of being able to maximize their damage output without any real concern about aggro, can you blame them for wanting that all the time?

Couching

07-27-2009, 02:38 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's wrong for dpsers to use their deaggro during the fight?</blockquote>From their perspective, if they're using deagrros, that means they're not at max DPS. One way to think about it is you have a race where the drivers are used to flooring the pedal for the entire race, and the only thing they need to worry about is shifting and steering; then one day, they're put behind the wheel of a car that requires that every time they hit a curve, they also have to use the brakes to reduce their speed, or they crash.And, yes, for the DPS classers, it is a race to see who can top the parse and by how much. That's just the state of the game. Being required to hold back for a "[Removed for Content]" tank is no fun when what you really want to do is full-burn, full-time, and you know for a fact that there are tanks out there that can enable you to do that.The issue is as much about player expectation as it is actual class mechanics. And once players get a taste of being able to maximize their damage output without any real concern about aggro, can you blame them for wanting that all the time?</blockquote>They are not supposed to max dps without worrying their aggro. Otherwise, remove their deaggro abilities.Giving aoe tanks overpowered aggro on both aoe and single targets is dumb.Bottom line, aoe tanks shouldn't have better aggro control than single target tanks on SINGLE targets.

Kordran

07-27-2009, 02:53 PM

What it should or shouldn't be isn't really a factor as far as the DPS players are concerned; they're working with how the game is right now, and there will be a lot of pushback if the developers substantially change things to require them to always use deagrros and meter their damage output, regardless of the tank.If you looked at just the threat component of the aborted fighter changes that were planned, the devs were making it eaiser for tanks to lock aggro, not harder. DPS classes would have had less to worry about when it came to "aggro management" on their part, as fighters were basically being turned into taunt monkeys with massive threat generation.The complaint your raising really has to do more with the ST/MT delineation than aggro itself. Right now, a Guardian in a stacked group can hold aggro easily; the primary difference is that other classes, such as the SK, just don't require that group be loaded with of threat buffs/transfers to be able to do the same job, and they also have higher DPS output to boot. Fundamentally the issue isn't that Guardians can't hold aggro well, it's just that it requires more specific group builds and more work on their part; that's where the inequity exists.

Maebus

07-27-2009, 03:09 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>What it should or shouldn't be isn't really a factor as far as the DPS players are concerned; they're working with how the game is right now, and there will be a lot of pushback if the developers substantially change things to require them to always use deagrros and meter their damage output, regardless of the tank.If you looked at just the threat component of the aborted fighter changes that were planned, the devs were making it eaiser for tanks to lock aggro, not harder. DPS classes would have had less to worry about when it came to "aggro management" on their part, as fighters were basically being turned into taunt monkeys with massive threat generation.</blockquote>This kind of gamelplay will make be shelve my Wizard. If it takes no skill to play anymore as a DPS class then no thanks. Talk about mindless button mashing.

Kordran

07-27-2009, 03:19 PM

Not to derail, but from the DPS perspective, you cannot maximize your damage output with "mindless button mashing". If you look on EQ2Flames, you have exhaustive threads that deal with issues of spell/CA rotation, timing and so on. Just rolling your face across the keyboard is pretty much guaranteed to land you at the bottom of the parse.To some extent, the culprit here is (again) more a player issue with such a heavy emphasis on parsing becuase it's largely one-dimensional. A parse shows who's pumping out the most damage, not necessarily the player who's playing the smartest in a particular fight. And becuase damage is the single, objective criteria that any DPS class can be judged by, it has become the only measuring stick used. In other words, we've gotten to the point that for many players, regardless of what any particular player does or does not do in a given encounter, if they're a DPS class and do over >15K, they're "good", if they do <10K, they "suck". And in an effort to "not suck", they want to be able to go balls-to-the-wall each and every fight to make sure their ZW is up there. Edit: Bottom line, EQ2 has evolved into a parse-driven game, and it's not just the hardcore players anymore. Causal PUGs often run and post parses all the time. But it's not the game developers who did this, it's the players themselves that have decided this is how it should be.

Maebus

07-27-2009, 03:23 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to derail, but from the DPS perspective, you cannot maximize your damage output with "mindless button mashing". If you look on EQ2Flames, you have exhaustive threads that deal with issues of spell/CA rotation, timing and so on. Just rolling your face across the keyboard is pretty much guaranteed to land you at the bottom of the parse.To some extent, the culprit here is (again) more a player issue with such a heavy emphasis on parsing becuase it's largely one-dimensional. A parse shows who's pumping out the most damage, not necessarily the player who's playing the smartest in a particular fight. And becuase damage is the single, objective criteria that any DPS class can be judged by, it has become the only measuring stick used. In other words, we've gotten to the point that for many players, regardless of what any particular player does or does not do in a given encounter, if they're a DPS class and do over >15K, they're "good", if they do <10K, they "suck". And in an effort to "not suck", they want to be able to go balls-to-the-wall each and every fight to make sure their ZW is up there.</blockquote>I agree with you, but honestly none of that is hard once you learn how to play that class. Putting that on top of playing with a tank and learning where his agro line was is what made it hard. I remember when you were ashamed when you pulled agro from the tank as a DPS class.

Kordran

07-27-2009, 03:28 PM

<cite>Maebus@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with you, but honestly none of that is hard once you learn how to play that class. Putting that on top of playing with a tank and learning where his agro line was is what made it hard. I remember when you were ashamed when you pulled agro from the tank as a DPS class.</blockquote>Yup, but those days are long gone. In today's game, if you rip from the tank, it must mean that the tank sucks. Ironically, in that kind of environment, those same people wonder why it can be so difficult to find a decent tank, and why there's such high turnover for tanks where they burnout and either switch mains or leave the game altogether.

therodge

07-27-2009, 04:40 PM

(ps3 wall of test sorry) I have been around since the begining i have watched tank balance ping pong for years sks were crusaders got shot ith dof paladins paladins were brought back in line with kos sks still suffered till tso rok came out 3 of the 4 were balanced guards were overpowered they overshot both with bringing guards in line and buffing sks. tha said guards suffer now more from basic game mechanics then balance. honestly i would have given guards a single large damage 16 target aoe (5k damage without modifiers( and droped sks damage on spells to what it was pre tso and i think that would bring things more inline (total fix no but a quick fix yes) and probobly increase taunt amounts by 6-7k just as a bonus quick fix

Aull

07-27-2009, 09:43 PM

Not that my story will be of any value here but seven months ago my eof fabled non myth zerker tanked a few of the tso instances. I will mention that it was some tough runs but we did complete the missions. I did at times take massive damage but my healers did very well. Everyone but my zerker had mythicals so I am sure that their equipment as well as knowledge was monumental to our success.Group make up. Dirge, brigand, templar, mystic, Illy, and my zerker. Aggro was still hard to achieve but again with knowledgeable players we still got it done. All in all it was very interesting to say the least. I was even mailed some plat for tanking it from one of the players.So I would say that as long as the group has the capability to make adjustments to their tank most zones that seem dismal can be done. It just takes longer.I would say that tanking for groups is possibly one of the most challenging and rewarding roles to fill. Extremely high uncontrolled dps classes can/will rip aggro from most tanks. So that is not the tanks fault even if the tank is being blamed.

RafaelSmith

07-28-2009, 10:43 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not that my story will be of any value here but seven months ago my eof fabled non myth zerker tanked a few of the tso instances. I will mention that it was some tough runs but we did complete the missions. I did at times take massive damage but my healers did very well. Everyone but my zerker had mythicals so I am sure that their equipment as well as knowledge was monumental to our success.Group make up. Dirge, brigand, templar, mystic, Illy, and my zerker. Aggro was still hard to achieve but again with knowledgeable players we still got it done. All in all it was very interesting to say the least. I was even mailed some plat for tanking it from one of the players.So I would say that as long as the group has the capability to make adjustments to their tank most zones that seem dismal can be done. It just takes longer.I would say that tanking for groups is possibly one of the most challenging and rewarding roles to fill. Extremely high uncontrolled dps classes can/will rip aggro from most tanks. So that is not the tanks fault even if the tank is being blamed.</blockquote>All that is true but the issue or the inbalance that exists is that those "requirements" do not surface with SK......DPS can afford to be uncontrolled and the group can afford to go with whatever classes they want because the requirement for Dirge and other hate xfer isnt there. The instance run is quick....no deaths. Once people get used to running groups like that they will only want to run groups like that.Without the absolute perfect group construction and everyone playing smart to manage aggro....tanking most of TSO instances as a Guardian is niether challenging nor rewarding.......its simply frustrating.I can deal with tanking being a challenge as long as I know I control failing or suceeding not some broken underlying game limitation. And all fighters should face a similar level of "challenge".

Aull

07-28-2009, 01:12 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not that my story will be of any value here but seven months ago my eof fabled non myth zerker tanked a few of the tso instances. I will mention that it was some tough runs but we did complete the missions. I did at times take massive damage but my healers did very well. Everyone but my zerker had mythicals so I am sure that their equipment as well as knowledge was monumental to our success.Group make up. Dirge, brigand, templar, mystic, Illy, and my zerker. Aggro was still hard to achieve but again with knowledgeable players we still got it done. All in all it was very interesting to say the least. I was even mailed some plat for tanking it from one of the players.So I would say that as long as the group has the capability to make adjustments to their tank most zones that seem dismal can be done. It just takes longer.I would say that tanking for groups is possibly one of the most challenging and rewarding roles to fill. Extremely high uncontrolled dps classes can/will rip aggro from most tanks. So that is not the tanks fault even if the tank is being blamed.</blockquote>All that is true but the issue or the inbalance that exists is that those "requirements" do not surface with SK......DPS can afford to be uncontrolled and the group can afford to go with whatever classes they want because the requirement for Dirge and other hate xfer isnt there. The instance run is quick....no deaths. Once people get used to running groups like that they will only want to run groups like that.Without the absolute perfect group construction and everyone playing smart to manage aggro....tanking most of TSO instances as a Guardian is niether challenging nor rewarding.......its simply frustrating.I can deal with tanking being a challenge as long as I know I control failing or suceeding not some broken underlying game limitation. And all fighters should face a similar level of "challenge".</blockquote>I totally agree with you on that. I was basically stating that it can be done, but again when an sk is tank most instance runs are cake even if the sk's play style sucks.

Kordran

07-28-2009, 01:20 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>All that is true but the issue or the inbalance that exists is that those "requirements" do not surface with SK......DPS can afford to be uncontrolled and the group can afford to go with whatever classes they want because the requirement for Dirge and other hate xfer isnt there. The instance run is quick....no deaths. Once people get used to running groups like that they will only want to run groups like that.</blockquote>I don't generally disagree with what you've written, but the group "requirement" issue has always seemed like a bit of a red herring in my opinion. Yes, technically an SK wouldn't require a Dirge, Coercer, etc. for threat buffs and transfers, but those are classes that any decent group leader would want anyway. As a Paladin, I'd want them not for threat, but because I want to see the group putting out >20K and the way to do that is with a solid utility and DPS classes.So, yes, a Guardian who's putting together a group really does want that Dirge, Coercer, Assassin or Swashbuckler, etc. But, in all practical terms, so would a Berserker, Shadowknight or Paladin. So the distinction becomes that it's easier to get away with craptastic group builds with one type of tank vs. another, and I don't know that's really a legitimate measuring stick (but in all honesty, I don't do a lot of pickup groups, either).

Wasuna

07-28-2009, 02:38 PM

The difference is:Guardians HAVE to have it.SK's and Paladins just want it.Please understand the difference between HAVE and WANT. It's huge when your bored and looking to fill up a group and sitting waiting to find a Hate Transfer class.And if you want DPS, check out a group with a SK tank, a single healer, a Troubador, 2 Warlocks and a Wizard in a TSO instance. That's HUGE DPS. You find me the Guardian that can handle that group and I'll give you $10 as long as the casters are alive and actually clicking buttons.I was the Troubador in that group and it was unbelieveable how fast things died and how easily the SK kept agro.I've been in similar groups with a Paladin and it was similar results.I have been in groups with much less DPS with Guardians that were tanking and it made me cringe for my Guardian. It's just so painful to watch when I have a vested interest in the situation. Everybody else in the group just complained about how slow we went.

Landiin

07-28-2009, 02:48 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>All that is true but the issue or the inbalance that exists is that those "requirements" do not surface with SK......DPS can afford to be uncontrolled and the group can afford to go with whatever classes they want because the requirement for Dirge and other hate xfer isnt there. The instance run is quick....no deaths. Once people get used to running groups like that they will only want to run groups like that.</blockquote>I don't generally disagree with what you've written, but the group "requirement" issue has always seemed like a bit of a red herring in my opinion. Yes, technically an SK wouldn't require a Dirge, Coercer, etc. for threat buffs and transfers, but those are classes that any decent group leader would want anyway. As a Paladin, I'd want them not for threat, but because I want to see the group putting out >20K and the way to do that is with a solid utility and DPS classes.So, yes, a Guardian who's putting together a group really does want that Dirge, Coercer, Assassin or Swashbuckler, etc. But, in all practical terms, so would a Berserker, Shadowknight or Paladin. So the distinction becomes that it's easier to get away with craptastic group builds with one type of tank vs. another, and I don't know that's really a legitimate measuring stick (but in all honesty, I don't do a lot of pickup groups, either).</blockquote>Again where do you people come from? Like Wasuna said, there is a BIG difference in wanting and haveing to have one.

Kordran

07-28-2009, 03:05 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again where do you people come from? Like Wasuna said, there is a BIG difference in wanting and haveing to have one.</blockquote>Like I said, I generally agreed with his post, but I think "want" and "need" are moot when they are, in all practical terms, one in the same thing. I could argue that I need to have good utility classes in my group because I don't want to spend 2 hours running a 30 minute zone. In other words, there's a subjective element to this. Regardless, don't get your knickers in a twist, I've also repeatedly stated that I fully support Guardians getting more AE threat generation, and that SOE should abandon the whole ST/MT tanking paradigm.

Maamadex

07-28-2009, 03:21 PM

What do you mean, "you people"? lol Made me think of Tropic Thunder. Making a group with a bard etc is just good group making. Comes from raiding, you don't make halfarse groups for a raid and hope to make it quick and efficient, or fun. I agree with Kordran, you build a good group to get the most out of your time.

RafaelSmith

07-28-2009, 03:28 PM

We are seeing how things are viewed by different segments of the playerbase.At the top end where most likely any MT is going to have whatever classes he/she may want or need things probably seem ok. The line between WANT and NEED is blurred....if its always available then there really is no NEED.But at my level where I do not have the luxury of building the perfect group the differences between WANT and NEED are vast.Our SK is able to grab whoever may be on in our guild and hit just about any TSO instances with relative ease...sure it might be a 30min run -vs- 45min. By contrast if the absolute perfect group is not available to me.....I dont even bother...its simply not worth it.......that 30 or 45min turns into 2hours..and even then there is no guarantee of completeing the instance.This situation has had a negative effect in that it has spoiled those few high DPS classes we have....the few times they end up grouping with me they get frustrated beyond belief because of the layers of behavior they have to go under when grouped with a Guard.I love leading groups, I love taking charge....its why for the most part I have always played a MT...and even considering my less than hardcore approach I have always tried min/maxed. But the current frustration for me in EQ2 has gone beyond what I can control via gear or class knowledge. The holy trinity in EQ1 pales in comparison to the .....oh I have to have 2 forms of hate xfer, no AE dpers in group, probably 2 healers...yada yada yada.I haven't tanked a TSO instance in quite some time.......still each day I log on say to myself...ok maybe Ill just see if I can put something together.......then remind myself of what sorta gorup I must have.........then just go work on leveling up my Assassin.

RafaelSmith

07-28-2009, 03:30 PM

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>What do you mean, "you people"? lol Made me think of Tropic Thunder. Making a group with a bard etc is just good group making. Comes from raiding, you don't make halfarse groups for a raid and hope to make it quick and efficient, or fun. I agree with Kordran, you build a good group to get the most out of your time.</blockquote>A good group will want to make the most our of THEIR time.........That means get a SK to MT.

Landiin

07-28-2009, 06:25 PM

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>What do you mean, "you people"? lol Made me think of Tropic Thunder. Making a group with a bard etc is just good group making. Comes from raiding, you don't make halfarse groups for a raid and hope to make it quick and efficient, or fun. I agree with Kordran, you build a good group to get the most out of your time.</blockquote>Ok OK.. let me put it this way.. A crusader does not NEED hate trasfers.. Its nice to have but they DO NOT NEED it to hold agro on mindless button smashing monkeys.. DO you understand that?

Yimway

07-28-2009, 07:31 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok OK.. let me put it this way.. A crusader does not NEED hate trasfers.. Its nice to have but they DO NOT NEED it to hold agro on mindless button smashing monkeys.. DO you understand that?</blockquote>An SK can hold agro vs a nearly unlimited amount of dps with no hate management classes in the group.Any other tank has a finite limit to the amount of dps they can tank for. Depending on the tank and the group makeup that might be 8k or 200k, but there is a limit.We're just bent over the barrel by soe until fighter recamp 2.0 rolls around in february. We took it up the rear with Aeraliks nerf bat last November and we're going to keep taking it from him until the 'round 2' comes around. Sure, the reasonable thing to do was to revert the first nerfing until such time as the bigger picture could be worked out, but well, thats reasonable and I don't think we can expect reasonable treatment from SoE in regards to class issues. They simply lack the manpower and the inclination.

Maamadex

07-28-2009, 10:18 PM

I understand perfectly I can do a zone without hate transfers or hate buffs. I have done so with good dps classes and not lost aggro one bit, it still makes the group less by not taking them, so maybe I don't need one but the scouts or the mages certainly think they do for the buffs. Its more of an optimizing thing, if you can take one why not? If you can't thats fine too. Warriors however do need them in most cases to hold aggro. And by that I mean a trouby, dirge, or coercer. I prefer an Illy but they just give buffs heh. Swashy or assassin works ok for a warrior too but they don't buff just help a tank gain aggro with their transfer. As for calling people mindless button mashing monkeys, lol whatever floats your boat there buddy.

Wasuna

07-31-2009, 02:42 PM

While I in NO WAY agree with calling people 'Mindless Button Mashing Monkeys', you do have to look at the new found SK agro abilities. They have two buttons they can use to gain almost instant agro. The first is Greave Sacrament. The second is Death March.That's also what kind of frustrates me. As a Guardian I'm always looking at the agro meter and trying to use my abilites as needed to keep me at the top. I use all of my taunts and attacks, I switch back and forth Defensive/Offensive/No Stance and I Dual Wield/Sword& Shiled switch all through the fight to try and manage things in terms of agro and survivability.Other classes just click a button if their massive 2-4K per mob AOE's don't keep agro on them.This goes back to using every trick I have learend over the years and still not being able to compete with a lesser geared tank with a quick agro button. If the SK is equally geared then I'm just useless on all sides.

Atavax311

08-11-2009, 01:21 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again where do you people come from? Like Wasuna said, there is a BIG difference in wanting and haveing to have one.</blockquote>Like I said, I generally agreed with his post, but I think "want" and "need" are moot when they are, in all practical terms, one in the same thing. I could argue that I need to have good utility classes in my group because I don't want to spend 2 hours running a 30 minute zone. In other words, there's a subjective element to this. Regardless, don't get your knickers in a twist, I've also repeatedly stated that I fully support Guardians getting more AE threat generation, and that SOE should abandon the whole ST/MT tanking paradigm.</blockquote>guardians dont need more AE threat. we dont need easy mode threat. the ST/MT program should be revamped not because guardians cant hold aggro; they can hold aggro, but because aggro is a joke with AE tanks; they are clearly OverPowered. i am a single target tank, and i dont want easy mode ae aggro; i enjoy the chellenge of tanking large ae encounters as a guardian. Guardians need better single target threat and Sk's need worse single target and multi-target threat.<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I group with an SK I can go nuts.....I dont even have to target the same mob he is....I can pretty much do anything I want and the mob(s) never even look my way. In fact the crazier I play the better his aggro seems.</blockquote>this is a quote from another thread and shows why SK's need a nerf. aggro isnt a factor that is designed to be ignored. Aggro is something the group should worry about; this is not the case with the sk. it is OP, it needs a nerf.

Kordran

08-11-2009, 01:43 PM

<cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>aggro isnt a factor that is designed to be ignored. Aggro is something the group should worry about; this is not the case with the sk. it is OP, it needs a nerf.</blockquote>That's fine, but after 8+ months it's pretty clear that the SK is not going to get nerfed, and according to reports from tanks who've talked with the developers at Fan Faire, their intention is to make aggro (of all kinds) easier to manage in the next expansion, not more difficult. So, we're left with the reality of the situation where they seem to believe that the Shadowknight is the new "normal" in terms of aggro management. The Guardian is in the unenviable position of having fallen through the cracks between all of these changes, and the more casual players who love the class are the ones feeling the pinch.My predicition is that you're going to see "typical" aggro management effectively marginalized, while at the same time the devs will add more and more specials to mobs, even the run of the mill trash/heroics, that will wipe, blur and target lock. This will mean that playing a good tank will mean less in terms of maintaining threat, and even more about quick reaction times using snaps to regain control of mobs designed to go wild.

Atavax311

08-11-2009, 02:07 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atavax311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>aggro isnt a factor that is designed to be ignored. Aggro is something the group should worry about; this is not the case with the sk. it is OP, it needs a nerf.</blockquote>That's fine, but after 8+ months it's pretty clear that the SK is not going to get nerfed, and according to reports from tanks who've talked with the developers at Fan Faire, their intention is to make aggro (of all kinds) easier to manage in the next expansion, not more difficult. So, we're left with the reality of the situation where they seem to believe that the Shadowknight is the new "normal" in terms of aggro management. The Guardian is in the unenviable position of having fallen through the cracks between all of these changes, and the more casual players who love the class are the ones feeling the pinch.My predicition is that you're going to see "typical" aggro management effectively marginalized, while at the same time the devs will add more and more specials to mobs, even the run of the mill trash/heroics, that will wipe, blur and target lock. This will mean that playing a good tank will mean less in terms of maintaining threat, and even more about quick reaction times using snaps to regain control of mobs designed to go wild.</blockquote>soe works slowly; just because its been 8 months, doesnt mean a nerf isnt incoming. and do you have any links to those reports from tanks? never heard of them.

Kordran

08-11-2009, 02:45 PM

IIRC, Atan was one of the folks at FF that discussed the tank issues with them, and is one of the higher profile Guardians on the forums here.

RafaelSmith

08-11-2009, 02:56 PM

I seriously doubt SOE will implement any "nerfs" to SKs. The "new" SK seems to fit nicely into the way SOE seems to be designing zones and encounters. TSO was the start, WoE is clearly made for SKs to single tank entirely...same with some of the encounters in Kurns, etc.Having a tank that can generate aggro at the level a good SK can means they can build was people perceive as fancy encounters.It means they can cater heroic content to the masses where a good majority of players are simply bad....so things can be designed without expecting DPSers and such to play correctly or manage their aggro. Grab a healer + any 4 and go to town....no need to concern about class synergies, needed hate buffs, having AE or ST DPS, etc.In a round about way its allows them to dumb down the game....which I think is a standard Blizzard set and everyone thinks they need to follow to be successful.

Atavax311

08-11-2009, 06:40 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I seriously doubt SOE will implement any "nerfs" to SKs. The "new" SK seems to fit nicely into the way SOE seems to be designing zones and encounters. TSO was the start, WoE is clearly made for SKs to single tank entirely...same with some of the encounters in Kurns, etc.Having a tank that can generate aggro at the level a good SK can means they can build was people perceive as fancy encounters.It means they can cater heroic content to the masses where a good majority of players are simply bad....so things can be designed without expecting DPSers and such to play correctly or manage their aggro. Grab a healer + any 4 and go to town....no need to concern about class synergies, needed hate buffs, having AE or ST DPS, etc.In a round about way its allows them to dumb down the game....which I think is a standard Blizzard set and everyone thinks they need to follow to be successful.</blockquote>im sorry, i thought this thread was about suggestions to the game, not predictions of the changes SOE will do to the game.

Wasuna

08-17-2009, 02:43 PM

Everything has been suggested, posted and rehashed multiple times. No SOE employee has ever come here and posted a reply and no changes in game have been announced. The problem is clear. The solution, while we all have opinions, is up to SOE.Don't get mad at people for wandering around on their thoughts. it's hard to keep focued for months.

RafaelSmith

08-17-2009, 02:54 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everything has been suggested, posted and rehashed multiple times. No SOE employee has ever come here and posted a reply and no changes in game have been announced. The problem is clear. The solution, while we all have opinions, is up to SOE.Don't get mad at people for wandering around on their thoughts. it's hard to keep focued for months.</blockquote>With SOE you have to read between the lines to get any picture as to what their real intent/vision is.Personally, I look at what they are doing in other areas of the game......content, new content in GU's, etc.So far they keep pushing out content that is heavily biased toward the Crusader....specifically SK 'style' of tanking......(lots of AE, high DPS checks, encounter 'tricks' for which Crusaders have ways to deal with, etc).Things like what they had proposed with the scrapped Fighter revamp just prove they do not really grasp what the actual problems are thus come up with over the board overeaction "fixes".I do not see the current Guardian situation changing much if at all in the next expansion or even future game updates.

Terron

08-20-2009, 11:14 AM

If I didn't take a healer and 4 others I would get half the groups I do, which isn't many.Without a dirge I don't hold aggro - I just control it a bit using my snap aggro tools.With a drige and some other aggro boost then I can hold it, except for fully fabled DPSers.I've done Veskar (TSO version) with no aggro boosts. There were a lot of deaths, but we did complete it.This month I have tanked completly 2 instances I hadn't completed before - crucible and AoB. I had a near perfect group for Crucible in terms of the classes, but the range would pull aggro almost every fight (even with moderate), though usually just before the mob died. In AoB the group was not quite as good but we completed it wit no wipes (one near one when the healer went down to an add, but I managed to pull the add and survive long enough for the dirge to rez the healer).I have my myth, the rod from PR as a secondary weapon, the Thuuga band and one piece of fabled armour (from VS when getting myth). I don't wear the fabled armour though as the set bonus on 5 pieces of T1 armour is too good to loose. I have T2 shoulders. I am saving up to upgrade 4 pieces at once.Being so dependant on having the right aggro boosters is wrong. I think SOE had the right idea about reducing hate transfers/boosters and increasing taunts, but as they often do they took it too far.