NON-RAID GUARDS exist in this game [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Davngr1

06-15-2009, 02:13 AM

I'm starting this thread because I have an alt Guardian I have been playing for many years. I rember when game developers introduced the fighter revamp part 1 i was concerned with loosing so much agro from the Stamina Line adjustment and rember game developers saying that fighter revamp part 2 would finish balancing out the class, well Part 2 of the fighter revamp was scraped and my Guardian is still missing a large portion of aggression that was never replaced. Guardians with out mythicals and raid gear where never over powerd in Rok or at any other time in this games post GU 13 history. So I can't help but to feel like game developers have forgoten about players that choose to play Guardians with heroic content and solo questing in mind. I can understand that there have been many other ingame issues that might have taken priority over this, but I urge game developers to please pay close attention to the dilemma the NON RAID GUARDIAN faces. The class is usually the main tank of many raid guilds and thus recives all the best buffs in the game and very powerfull armor and jewlery. This gives the class a FALSE presence of being very powerfull when in fact, the NON RAID GUARDIAN has very little agro generation, no damage abilitys and do to the recent abilitys given to most other PLATE tanks, all roughly have the same LONGEVITY. It's very clear to me that the Stamina changes affected both Bezerkers and Guardians BUT the fact that NON RAID GUARDIANS lost a major source of aggression generation is CRYSTAL clear. I would like to end my post by asking a simple question: Why has my NON RAID GUARDIAN been adjusted at all? my NON RAID GUARDIAN did not have 70% + double attack dual wielding with and extra 8% uncontested avoidance in RoK, my NON RAID GUARDIAN did not have a tower shild on with an extra 8% uncontested avoidance. In my opinion the RoK Guardian mythical was not over powerd since a powerfull main tank help the raid over all, but it can not be denied that any Guardian that did not possess this weapon was not in anyway shape or form over powerd or out of line with class balance.

Rahatmattata

06-15-2009, 02:17 AM

The first place Aerilik goes to read about class specific issues is the sticky threads on class issues.... which would be <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=436303" target="_blank">here</a> for guardians.Pretty much every piece of your rant has already been covered in this thread. Hope you feel better though.I'm not trying to be condesending or anything... it's just that if you really want dev attention, there is a thread specifically designed for that, which aerilik has said he looks at first when/if he decides to do it. Also there is /feedback in game which probably gets at least read, as opposed to class issue forums that might get a brief glance of the first page once in a blue moon.

Davngr1

06-15-2009, 02:28 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>The first place Aerilik goes to read about class specific issues is the sticky threads on class issues.... which would be <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=436303" target="_blank">here</a> for guardians.Pretty much every piece of your rant has already been covered in this thread. Hope you feel better though.I'm not trying to be condesending or anything... it's just that if you really want dev attention, there is a thread specifically designed for that, which aerilik has said he looks at first when/if he decides to do it.</blockquote> thanks for the link but that seems to be for the most part a raid guardians concern section. made this post to focus on the players that don't have acces to raid gear. It has been a long time problem for the class and I am thinking dealing with it in this way might stop this from happening in the future.

RafaelSmith

06-15-2009, 11:09 AM

Guardian is a raiding class. It has a singular purpose and its 'advantages' in performing that purpose only comes into play on raids.....and even then only on certain raid encounters or when a guild is tackling a raid mob for the first time.Its something that I have just now started coming to grips with. I think its just been more obvious with TSO which is so heavily Heroic group centric.To make matters worse.....our advantage as a raiding class has become smaller and smaller while our disadvantage as a group tank or soloer has gotten larger and larger.If your goal is primarily to do heroic content or solo then pick another class. SOE is not gonna give you what you are asking for.

EverAfterIt

06-15-2009, 12:03 PM

I disagree.I raid - but almost rarely as an MT. I'm not fabled out geared with a mythical. I do have T2 shard armor and my epic (but those are very easily attained by anyone these days).I spend most of my time helping others in group/instance settings. I rarely run with a perfect group make up. In fact, at times, I've gotten a Warlock, a Necro who likes to have his assassin pet hit whatever I'm not targeting, a berserker who's idea of dps is hitting Sneering Assault whenever it's up, and an Inquisitor who's melee hit damage is easily 4x mine. Many times my only hate xfer is a Troub...and they don't xfer, they reduce. I think anyone would agree this is Aggro management hell.Guards are NOT only raid tanks. I may have to work a little at keeping aggro on encounter sized mobs, but /shrug. Seriously, who wants to play a class where you can get tools/cross toon support where you can hit or taunt then go /afk get a drink and come back and the fight is wrapping up but you still hold aggro?I can do multiple mob encounter groups. Not perfect but I can do it. I learned my class solo/duo'ing from 1 to 75. Very little group experience before that - which was bad imo. The last 5 levels opened my eyes and made me see how reliant Guards where on other classes. I rarely had that luxury. So I learned to adapt. Improvise.I refuse to hear that we CAN'T.

RafaelSmith

06-15-2009, 12:54 PM

<cite>EverAfterIt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I refuse to hear that we CAN'T.</blockquote>Never said we can't. Anyone that thinks the Guardian was meant to be anything other than a raid tank is fooling themselves or is lucky enough to group with lesser geared and poorly played classes.The point of this thread is that in performing class balance amongst the fighters......when it comes to Guardians SOE has only considered the top end....raid MTs......where stacking the group to ensure maximum hate is guaranteed.....and where having every bit of surviveability matters. That is the only place where their advertised Guardian avantage comes into play.The simple truth is...you can take a good SK......with a good healer and pretty much any 4 other top-notch players and that group with have almost no aggro problems and clear most TSO instances in short order. Not so with Guardian.And since TSO that same SK is also a very viable option to MT raids....and it alot of cases a better option. IMO they are the only fighter class that is balanced with all the games content taken into account.

Davngr1

06-15-2009, 02:15 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardian is a raiding class. It has a singular purpose and its 'advantages' in performing that purpose only comes into play on raids.....and even then only on certain raid encounters or when a guild is tackling a raid mob for the first time.Its something that I have just now started coming to grips with. I think its just been more obvious with TSO which is so heavily Heroic group centric.To make matters worse.....our advantage as a raiding class has become smaller and smaller while our disadvantage as a group tank or soloer has gotten larger and larger.If your goal is primarily to do heroic content or solo then pick another class. SOE is not gonna give you what you are asking for.</blockquote> No thanks i don't rember there being a disclaimer under Guardian class saying *useless for everything but raids* my guard has done fine till this expac when game developers decided to adjust damage on a class that all ready had NO dmg. i mean sure RAID GUARDS could do good damage but NON RAID guards where bottom of the barrel.

Davngr1

06-15-2009, 02:19 PM

<cite>EverAfterIt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I disagree.I raid - but almost rarely as an MT. I'm not fabled out geared with a mythical. I do have T2 shard armor and my epic (but those are very easily attained by anyone these days).I spend most of my time helping others in group/instance settings. I rarely run with a perfect group make up. In fact, at times, I've gotten a Warlock, a Necro who likes to have his assassin pet hit whatever I'm not targeting, a berserker who's idea of dps is hitting Sneering Assault whenever it's up, and an Inquisitor who's melee hit damage is easily 4x mine. Many times my only hate xfer is a Troub...and they don't xfer, they reduce. I think anyone would agree this is Aggro management hell.Guards are NOT only raid tanks. I may have to work a little at keeping aggro on encounter sized mobs, but /shrug. Seriously, who wants to play a class where you can get tools/cross toon support where you can hit or taunt then go /afk get a drink and come back and the fight is wrapping up but you still hold aggro?I can do multiple mob encounter groups. Not perfect but I can do it. I learned my class solo/duo'ing from 1 to 75. Very little group experience before that - which was bad imo. The last 5 levels opened my eyes and made me see how reliant Guards where on other classes. I rarely had that luxury. So I learned to adapt. Improvise.I refuse to hear that we CAN'T.</blockquote> Yes that's fine and dandy and i also make the class work and can tank in any situation but that does not mean that I'm gonna let a class i like get screwd over because game developers can not keep RAID gear in check. MOST guards ARE NOT raid guard and that adjustment to STA line should have been replaced by something else and it was not.

LygerT

06-15-2009, 02:46 PM

half of the problem is with the players, players who refused to learn how to DPS as a tank. DPS is aggro, you are now learning how important your DPS was to your aggro and is your responsibility as a tank. yes, your job is more difficult in that you now have to balance your gear and DPS out better than ever before. of course i'm not saying i still don't see a problem but you can't be ignorant and claim it as a defense.when was the last time i saw a guard in chain or leather? i don't think i have ever seen one personally wearing it. i do when the time is needed.

Davngr1

06-15-2009, 02:47 PM

LygerT

06-15-2009, 02:51 PM

warriors just have to roll with a slightly more optimized group than crusaders, this point has already been covered many many times before.

Landiin

06-15-2009, 02:55 PM

Lyger you are correct. But maybe I think you fail to see that people at that level and/or knowledge can't gear out like that because their healers are not geared well enough to heal them geared like that. I agree it is a balancing act, an act that shouldn't have to be so balanced IMO.Let the man vent.. Oh i feel better already.. Where is my tea at..

LygerT

06-15-2009, 03:04 PM

we all have vented and we all took the beatings while doing it.

RafaelSmith

06-15-2009, 03:08 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>half of the problem is with the players, players who refused to learn how to DPS as a tank. DPS is aggro, you are now learning how important your DPS was to your aggro and is your responsibility as a tank. yes, your job is more difficult in that you now have to balance your gear and DPS out better than ever before. of course i'm not saying i still don't see a problem but you can't be ignorant and claim it as a defense.when was the last time i saw a guard in chain or leather? i don't think i have ever seen one personally wearing it. i do when the time is needed.</blockquote>You can't be serious.........with my guild...and where we are in terms of gear and progressions........if I tried to MT in leather we would mean epic failure. Ive tried it....yeah I held aggro much better...before I died.I have nothing but respect for those at the top-end of the game.....not jealous.....happy to see them get all the nice gear they work hard to get.......but all I ask is that they try to take off those rose colored glasses.....and realize that not everone has the gear, the healers and the support classes to do crazy things like MT the hard stuff in leather and without a shield.Thats the point of this thread....at least I think.......that the fighters are being adjusted/balanced with only top-end raid performance taken into account.And don't you think that the fact you are suggesting that a solution to the issues is for Guards to MT in leather means something is outa whack?

Davngr1

06-15-2009, 03:12 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lyger you are correct. But maybe I think you fail to see that people at that level and/or knowledge can't gear out like that because their healers are not geared well enough to heal them geared like that. I agree it is a balancing act, an act that shouldn't have to be so balanced IMO.Let the man vent.. Oh i feel better already.. Where is my tea at..</blockquote>lol i'm not venting man. i'm just tired of hearing how my guard was OP when he was not. I am here to hopefully get this delt with.

Davngr1

06-15-2009, 03:15 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>half of the problem is with the players, players who refused to learn how to DPS as a tank. DPS is aggro, you are now learning how important your DPS was to your aggro and is your responsibility as a tank. yes, your job is more difficult in that you now have to balance your gear and DPS out better than ever before. of course i'm not saying i still don't see a problem but you can't be ignorant and claim it as a defense.when was the last time i saw a guard in chain or leather? i don't think i have ever seen one personally wearing it. i do when the time is needed.</blockquote>You can't be serious.........with my guild...and where we are in terms of gear and progressions........if I tried to MT in leather we would mean epic failure. Ive tried it....yeah I held aggro much better...before I died.I have nothing but respect for those at the top-end of the game.....not jealous.....happy to see them get all the nice gear they work hard to get.......but all I ask is that they try to take off those rose colored glasses.....and realize that not everone has the gear, the healers and the support classes to do crazy things like MT the hard stuff in leather and without a shield.Thats the point of this thread....at least I think.......that the fighters are being adjusted/balanced with only top-end raid performance taken into account.And don't you think that the fact you are suggesting that a solution to the issues is for Guards to MT in leather means something is outa whack?</blockquote> indeed the point of thread sir AND i really can't wait till some douc.h.e bag guard by the name of JOKEl comes here and says that the only guards that matter are raid guards and all other players that pay every month just don't matter.

LygerT

06-15-2009, 03:36 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>half of the problem is with the players, players who refused to learn how to DPS as a tank. DPS is aggro, you are now learning how important your DPS was to your aggro and is your responsibility as a tank. yes, your job is more difficult in that you now have to balance your gear and DPS out better than ever before. of course i'm not saying i still don't see a problem but you can't be ignorant and claim it as a defense.when was the last time i saw a guard in chain or leather? i don't think i have ever seen one personally wearing it. i do when the time is needed.</blockquote>You can't be serious.........with my guild...and where we are in terms of gear and progressions........if I tried to MT in leather we would mean epic failure. Ive tried it....yeah I held aggro much better...before I died.I have nothing but respect for those at the top-end of the game.....not jealous.....happy to see them get all the nice gear they work hard to get.......but all I ask is that they try to take off those rose colored glasses.....and realize that not everone has the gear, the healers and the support classes to do crazy things like MT the hard stuff in leather and without a shield.Thats the point of this thread....at least I think.......that the fighters are being adjusted/balanced with only top-end raid performance taken into account.And don't you think that the fact you are suggesting that a solution to the issues is for Guards to MT in leather means something is outa whack?</blockquote>i'm just stating how the game is currently played. i'm also not even close to a top end raider anymore since i quit about 1/3 of the way through TSO progression about 4 months ago in disgust over how diverse crusaders have become as tanks and because i often times had to overwork myself due to roster issues.it could be the healers you play with need a fair amount of work or that the DPS classes are very skilled and geared better than the rest of the group, these imbalances make it seem like the problem is you when the fact is it probably isn't. i always despise it when i get some poor healer(s) and no transfer or hate buffer/debuffer, it makes any warrior's job a living nightmare but even moreso for a guard when there is multiple mobs in almost every group.i always prefer solo healing, so i can work on how well i am progressing and where my weaknesses are. i see many groups still roll with 2 healers and 1 is usually asleep, i just dislike balance issues based around failure of others, the whole issue isn't just a guardian one.

Davngr1

06-15-2009, 03:50 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>half of the problem is with the players, players who refused to learn how to DPS as a tank. DPS is aggro, you are now learning how important your DPS was to your aggro and is your responsibility as a tank. yes, your job is more difficult in that you now have to balance your gear and DPS out better than ever before. of course i'm not saying i still don't see a problem but you can't be ignorant and claim it as a defense.when was the last time i saw a guard in chain or leather? i don't think i have ever seen one personally wearing it. i do when the time is needed.</blockquote>You can't be serious.........with my guild...and where we are in terms of gear and progressions........if I tried to MT in leather we would mean epic failure. Ive tried it....yeah I held aggro much better...before I died.I have nothing but respect for those at the top-end of the game.....not jealous.....happy to see them get all the nice gear they work hard to get.......but all I ask is that they try to take off those rose colored glasses.....and realize that not everone has the gear, the healers and the support classes to do crazy things like MT the hard stuff in leather and without a shield.Thats the point of this thread....at least I think.......that the fighters are being adjusted/balanced with only top-end raid performance taken into account.And don't you think that the fact you are suggesting that a solution to the issues is for Guards to MT in leather means something is outa whack?</blockquote>i'm just stating how the game is currently played. i'm also not even close to a top end raider anymore since i quit about 1/3 of the way through TSO progression about 4 months ago in disgust over how diverse crusaders have become as tanks.it could be the healers you play with need a fair amount of work or that the DPS classes are very skilled and geared better than the rest of the group, these imbalances make it seem like the problem is you when the fact is it probably isn't. i always despise it when i get some poor healer(s) and no transfer or hate buffer/debuffer, it makes any warrior's job a living nightmare but even moreso for a guard when there is multiple mobs in almost every group.i always prefer solo healing, so i can work on how well i am progressing and where my weaknesses are. i see many groups still roll with 2 healers and 1 is usually asleep, i just dislike balance issues based around failure of others, the whole issue isn't just a guardian one.</blockquote> yea but the issue is here is that a class that was not overpowerd what so ever NON RAID GUARDIANS lost a significant amount of aggression generation and gained nothing in return. yes zerks lost that same DA but gained some shild effectives and some EoF love where NON RAID GUARDIANS did not gain any AA anywhere and only lost thus starting the expansion in a whole, because they whre NOT IN ANY WAY OVRPOWERD.

LygerT

06-15-2009, 03:57 PM

the RoK guard mythical was overpowered for raiding guardians, something had to be done about it to balance them versus other tanks. we all share the pain of the stamina line nerf and i agree that looking at it now that it hurt too many non raiding warriors. if they had continued with the tank changes but only made the adjustments to allow offensive to perform as DPS and defensive to act as taunting hate aggro then none of this would be an issue. the whole stance lock thing should have been thrown out the window and the modifiers to hate and decrease to DPS tied to defensive stance and 5% more damage taken in offensive been the main changes.they didn't have to throw the whole thing out, they just need to make it more appealing to all tanks and keep it so that there is still choices in tanking. done.

Beghauns

06-15-2009, 04:16 PM

I find grouping and raids about the same, don't raid without a coercer, dirge, swashy/assassin in group, don't use a shield. Groups I really don't like it if there is not at least a dirge and a hate transfer. Lately I pretty much stopped using my taunts other then rescue and reinforcement.

Davngr1

06-15-2009, 04:34 PM

<cite>Beghauns wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find grouping and raids about the same, don't raid without a coercer, dirge, swashy/assassin in group, don't use a shield. Groups I really don't like it if there is not at least a dirge and a hate transfer. Lately I pretty much stopped using my taunts other then rescue and reinforcement.</blockquote> the problem is that for a non raid guard there is even less aggression to be had. the nerf to the STA line was fine for raid outfited guards but it was an almost breaking point for the nonraid/myth guard. that is not how balance should work, it should balance a class with certain gear in mind it should balance a class according to the other classes.

Aull

06-16-2009, 09:29 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EverAfterIt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I refuse to hear that we CAN'T.</blockquote>Never said we can't. Anyone that thinks the Guardian was meant to be anything other than a raid tank is fooling themselves or is lucky enough to group with lesser geared and poorly played classes.The point of this thread is that in performing class balance amongst the fighters......when it comes to Guardians SOE has only considered the top end....raid MTs......where stacking the group to ensure maximum hate is guaranteed.....and where having every bit of surviveability matters. That is the only place where their advertised Guardian avantage comes into play.The simple truth is...you can take a good SK......with a good healer and pretty much any 4 other top-notch players and that group with have almost no aggro problems and clear most TSO instances in short order. Not so with Guardian.And since TSO that same SK is also a very viable option to MT raids....and it alot of cases a better option. IMO they are the only fighter class that is balanced with all the games content taken into account.</blockquote>Exactly. Issue here is why are sk's allowed to be such dominating forces in almost very department but a guardian can only be good for raids?

Yimway

06-16-2009, 12:05 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>And since TSO that same SK is also a very viable option to MT raids....and it alot of cases a better option. IMO they are the only fighter class that is balanced with all the games content taken into account.</blockquote>Exactly. Issue here is why are sk's allowed to be such dominating forces in almost very department but a guardian can only be good for raids?</blockquote>SK's are better for most of the raid content as their hate potential can be capped higher than warriors while the sk gets to use his shield while capping that hate. Warriors are stuck in DW to get 80-90% of the sustained hate geneartion of the SK class.This is where things get out of whack. The apparent sollution is to lower SK dps by about 30% while using a shield and give them a small increase from current using 2h. Crusaders are simply not bound by the same degree of dps vs survivability that all other fighters are bound to and thats where a great deal of this inballance comes from.

RafaelSmith

06-16-2009, 01:13 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>And since TSO that same SK is also a very viable option to MT raids....and it alot of cases a better option. IMO they are the only fighter class that is balanced with all the games content taken into account.</blockquote>Exactly. Issue here is why are sk's allowed to be such dominating forces in almost very department but a guardian can only be good for raids?</blockquote>SK's are better for most of the raid content as their hate potential can be capped higher than warriors while the sk gets to use his shield while capping that hate.Warriors are stuck in DW to get 80-90% of the sustained hate geneartion of the SK class.This is where things get out of whack. The apparent sollution is to lower SK dps by about 30% while using a shield and give them a small increase from current using 2h. Crusaders are simply not bound by the same degree of dps vs survivability that all other fighters are bound to and thats where a great deal of this inballance comes from.</blockquote>I agree that this is a big part of where the current inballance comes from.Its amazing that people do not realize that currently for a Guard to be 80-90% as effective as a SK he has to give up a huge part of the one thing that SKs keep throwing back at us.......i.e our so called "higher" surviveability. I hate calling for nerfs.......but somethig has to give......things cannot be balanced when one class can excel in every aspect of being a tank across all the games content with very little sacrifice.

Kigneer

06-16-2009, 01:33 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats the point of this thread....at least I think.......that the fighters are being adjusted/balanced with only top-end raid performance taken into account.</blockquote>Yep, and a lot of folks are unhappy due to it. Don't even have to be a Guardian to dislike the changes.SOE listened too much to the top 3% of the guilds, which means the other 97% is doing nothing but leveling alts or easy shard runs (especially the gray variety), as getting a survivable group together is hard (healer burn out I'm hearing as well -- not seeing them on chat much now, mostly dps).

Mathafern

06-16-2009, 02:58 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that this is a big part of where the current inballance comes from.Its amazing that people do not realize that currently for a Guard to be 80-90% as effective as a SK he has to give up a huge part of the one thing that SKs keep throwing back at us.......i.e our so called "higher" surviveability. I hate calling for nerfs.......but somethig has to give......things cannot be balanced when one class can excel in every aspect of being a tank across all the games content with very little sacrifice.<p$1$2$3$4$5$6> <p$1$2$3$4$5$6> <p$1$2$3$4$5$6> </blockquote>I realize that you are unhappy with Guardians as-is; nerfing other classes will not change that. And yes I throw survivability in your face- because your mit, and def stance buff, are something I would very much like to have. Combined with good gear, masters, and playing the class to full potential that makes for very good raid tankage.Guards do need a warning sticker on the class "non-raid content may be frustrating".IMO you still need to give Guardians more of a try in group- there are pieces of gear in instances that would be very useful for you, at the very least run Anathema until the wrist item drops. And yes wizards and warlocks are not your friend- but zones like Anathema don't require an uber group, or any particular flavor of DPS.

Illine

06-16-2009, 03:14 PM

Davngr1

06-16-2009, 03:21 PM

please guys.. this is not a *nerf sk* thread. I in no way want a class to loose it's new found effectiveness nor am i here to discuss if it should scaled back or not. the only thing i care about is SOE NOT using the outfitted RAID GUARDIAN as the template for guardian balance. clearly the changes made did not affect the RAID GUARDIAN much at all other then having a crap mythical weapon, yet the NON RAID GUARDIAN is total garbage to be honest. my guardian is an alt i play a mage as my main and scout and when ever i hear disccusions on the WW class channels about how guards suck, i use to say .. well you should group with my guard he don't suck.. then i realized there was no way for there to be so many bad guardians, so i compared the AA and profesional CA's for all the plate tanks and it's blatantly ovbious that plate tanks now share the same survivability and threat position tools YET guardians have gained NONE of other plate tanks agrression generation abilitys... developers after countless crying from other plate tanks made them all guardians with better agro and then actually took AWAY agrression generation from guard VIA STA line nerf.. this is the issue and the reason for the thread. SK needed the the changes it recived and i for one am glad that the class can now function as it should.

Illine

06-16-2009, 03:22 PM

<cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that this is a big part of where the current inballance comes from.Its amazing that people do not realize that currently for a Guard to be 80-90% as effective as a SK he has to give up a huge part of the one thing that SKs keep throwing back at us.......i.e our so called "higher" surviveability. I hate calling for nerfs.......but somethig has to give......things cannot be balanced when one class can excel in every aspect of being a tank across all the games content with very little sacrifice. </blockquote>I realize that you are unhappy with Guardians as-is; nerfing other classes will not change that. And yes I throw survivability in your face- because your mit, and def stance buff, are something I would very much like to have. Combined with good gear, masters, and playing the class to full potential that makes for very good raid tankage.Guards do need a warning sticker on the class "non-raid content may be frustrating".IMO you still need to give Guardians more of a try in group- there are pieces of gear in instances that would be very useful for you, at the very least run Anathema until the wrist item drops. And yes wizards and warlocks are not your friend- but zones like Anathema don't require an uber group, or any particular flavor of DPS.</blockquote>pb is now SK is almost the only good tank. He can put amazing dps even without buffs. I have a bruiser, I can't dps as much unless I am full of buffs, it's not right.I don't ask about nerfs, but now SKs are far above all the other tanks. So whether they should bring all tanks up or bringing SK down because now people almost only look for SKs (or sometimes paly) for group tanks, and it's not normal ...

RafaelSmith

06-16-2009, 03:37 PM

<cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that this is a big part of where the current inballance comes from.Its amazing that people do not realize that currently for a Guard to be 80-90% as effective as a SK he has to give up a huge part of the one thing that SKs keep throwing back at us.......i.e our so called "higher" surviveability.I hate calling for nerfs.......but somethig has to give......things cannot be balanced when one class can excel in every aspect of being a tank across all the games content with very little sacrifice. </blockquote>I realize that you are unhappy with Guardians as-is; nerfing other classes will not change that. And yes I throw survivability in your face- because your mit, and def stance buff, are something I would very much like to have. Combined with good gear, masters, and playing the class to full potential that makes for very good raid tankage.Guards do need a warning sticker on the class "non-raid content may be frustrating".IMO you still need to give Guardians more of a try in group- there are pieces of gear in instances that would be very useful for you, at the very least run Anathema until the wrist item drops. And yes wizards and warlocks are not your friend- but zones like Anathema don't require an uber group, or any particular flavor of DPS.</blockquote>Would you take that extra few % of MIT and that DEF stance if it meant you had to be extremely picky on who you grouped with? where you went? and that you would only do at best half the 8k+ DPS your so used too while watching aggro bounce all over the place? What if it meant when tasked in a raid you couldn't offtank a named from a encounter for more than 12sec? What if it meant it would take you an hour+ and a wipe or two to get thru Deep Forge instead of 15-30min?Im glad you enjoy the game and the current wave SKs are riding.....really I am.......but I am mostly glad for our guild....becuase with a good player such as yourself taking full advantage of everything SOE has given SKs we would still be struggling in PR.The bolded red text is about the best advice I would give anyone.

Mathafern

06-16-2009, 03:54 PM

<cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>pb is now SK is almost the only good tank. He can put amazing dps even without buffs. I have a bruiser, I can't dps as much unless I am full of buffs, it's not right.I don't ask about nerfs, but now SKs are far above all the other tanks. So whether they should bring all tanks up or bringing SK down because now people almost only look for SKs (or sometimes paly) for group tanks, and it's not normal ...</blockquote>We'll see how SK fare after the GU52 changes <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but again, if you're unhappy with YOUR CLASS then you should ask for a buff to YOUR CLASS rather than suggest a nerf of another class.If you're happy with YOUR CLASS but unhappy with how it fares relative to another, you may be suffering from grass-is-greener; personally even when I was UNHAPPY with my class I still didn't want other classes nerfed, I just wanted (and got with TSO, in spades) better itemization, which IMO was the #1 issue SK faced in RoK.Figure out what issue YOUR CLASS has and ask to get it fixed. That's constructive. Anything else is sour grapes IMO.And to answer Gaylon, no, I wouldn't trade SK for Guard- that doesn't mean I don't want mit like a guard. I'm all in favor of Guards getting a boost, if nothing other than fixing some of the inconsistancies that came out of the TSO-timed guard nerf- itemization could fix this -the guard myth could use a boost, and a few more AoE aggro items would be nice. for guard

RafaelSmith

06-16-2009, 04:38 PM

<cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>And to answer Gaylon, no, I wouldn't trade SK for Guard- that doesn't mean I don't want mit like a guard.</blockquote>LOL but that so called Mit advantage is the only thing left that hasn't already been given to crusaders over the years.Oh wait....i forgot there is still Duel Wielding.

Davngr1

06-16-2009, 04:53 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>And to answer Gaylon, no, I wouldn't trade SK for Guard- that doesn't mean I don't want mit like a guard.</blockquote>LOL but that so called Mit advantage is the only thing left that hasn't already been given to crusaders over the years.Oh wait....i forgot there is still Duel Wielding.</blockquote> actually with the new gear bonuses being base mitt % any contested mitt that is created by guard temp values is diminished not to mention that, do to the deminishing returns established in EoF the life taps and self heals of crusaders are just as good as mitt buffs. either way it all comes down to all the othe tank classes got all the guard abilitys and my guard still don't have open march or jugersacrament. define what guards will be good at please because right now they aren't good at anything but raiding once they have all the best gear in game..

Rahatmattata

06-16-2009, 04:55 PM

<cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>We'll see how SK fare after the GU52 changes <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Fine?Shadowknight <ul><li>The Shadowknight will now be healed properly from Malevolent Protection.</li></ul>That's the only SK change I see and it's a fix not a nerf. Unless you are talking about proc crit, which effects item procs onry. Do you have a ton of proc gear that is not also usable by warriors?To the wanting guardian defense comment, I think he was saying he just wants our mit and avoid in addition to what shadowknights already have... not that he'd want to give up anything for it.</blockquote>

RafaelSmith

06-16-2009, 05:05 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>We'll see how SK fare after the GU52 changes <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Fine?Shadowknight <ul><li>The Shadowknight will now be healed properly from Malevolent Protection.</li></ul>That's the only SK change I see and it's a fix not a nerf. Unless you are talking about proc crit, which effects item procs onry. Do you have a ton of proc gear that is not also usable by warriors?To the wanting guardian defense comment, I think he was saying he just wants our mit and avoid in addition to what shadowknights already have... not that he'd want to give up anything for it.</blockquote></blockquote>I don't know the exact numbers but I imagine since crusaders naturally will have high spell crit and high spell DMG bonus the nerf to proc applying those will be a bigger hit to Crusaders with proc gear than it is to Guards with proc gear.And yeah that was my point in pointing out what it is we give up in exchange for that mit and avoidance.

Mathafern

06-16-2009, 05:14 PM

Of course I want Guardian mit and avoid, because it is better than mine- particularly the def stance buff which if used right is a big boost without much downside. I'm not at all saying it'd be balanced for me to HAVE that, however. With so much negativity though Guards should at least recognize what they do have.I'd trade DPS for more mit in a heartbeat. I would not trade aggro for mit however, at least not today.And yes I was saying Crusaders will get nerfed by the proc change- I have 100+% spell crit and that will have an effect. I worry more about the effect on healers though, because I can live without DPS, I can't live without heals.

RafaelSmith

06-16-2009, 05:29 PM

<cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd trade DPS for more mit in a heartbeat. I would not trade aggro for mit however, at least not today.</blockquote>But in todays EQ2 there is no aggro without DPS.I fully admit the Mit advantage.......we have that ok........but it buys us nothing...zippo...nada outside of few select encounters. Lets not forget about diminishing returns. It does us no good to drool over the mit % in our persona window if the mobs are bouncing all over killing off the casters and healers. It does nothing to get us thru the tougher instances full of AE in decent time.My real point is that the balance that comes from having something in exchange for giving something up is way out of whack IMO.The MT that can hold ALL the aggro against DPS that is getting stronger and stronger everyday while contributing DPS class level DPS and has enough suriveability that his healers can keep him up will be superior in every way. Minor differences here and there displayed in persona window percentages become meaningless.

Davngr1

06-16-2009, 10:50 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd trade DPS for more mit in a heartbeat. I would not trade aggro for mit however, at least not today.</blockquote>But in todays EQ2 there is no aggro without DPS.I fully admit the Mit advantage.......we have that ok........but it buys us nothing...zippo...nada outside of few select encounters. Lets not forget about diminishing returns. It does us no good to drool over the mit % in our persona window if the mobs are bouncing all over killing off the casters and healers. It does nothing to get us thru the tougher instances full of AE in decent time.My real point is that the balance that comes from having something in exchange for giving something up is way out of whack IMO.The MT that can hold ALL the aggro against DPS that is getting stronger and stronger everyday while contributing DPS class level DPS and has enough suriveability that his healers can keep him up will be superior in every way. Minor differences here and there displayed in persona window percentages become meaningless.</blockquote> that exactly where the problem is, all the offensive tanks gained defensive buffs/ca's and the defensive tank din't gain any personal agreession generation, they actually lost some. add to that the snap aggression tools and you have your self 3 far superior plate tanks specialy when compared pre-gear. I'm not saying the offensive tanks did not need those defensive buffs/ca's because they indeed did, to tank T8 TSO mobs but guards also needed some personal aggression generation to tank for T8 TSO dps classes.

Illine

06-17-2009, 05:40 AM

<cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>pb is now SK is almost the only good tank. He can put amazing dps even without buffs. I have a bruiser, I can't dps as much unless I am full of buffs, it's not right.I don't ask about nerfs, but now SKs are far above all the other tanks. So whether they should bring all tanks up or bringing SK down because now people almost only look for SKs (or sometimes paly) for group tanks, and it's not normal ...</blockquote>We'll see how SK fare after the GU52 changes <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> but again, if you're unhappy with YOUR CLASS then you should ask for a buff to YOUR CLASS rather than suggest a nerf of another class.If you're happy with YOUR CLASS but unhappy with how it fares relative to another, you may be suffering from grass-is-greener; personally even when I was UNHAPPY with my class I still didn't want other classes nerfed, I just wanted (and got with TSO, in spades) better itemization, which IMO was the #1 issue SK faced in RoK.Figure out what issue YOUR CLASS has and ask to get it fixed. That's constructive. Anything else is sour grapes IMO.</blockquote>I don't call for nerfs. I know SKs were the black sheep in RoK so it's nice they got boosted.Problem is that they are too strong and too ubber compared to other tanks. I hope they are where they should be, but now they should bring all other fighters to the same level.I remember in RoK, every class was talking how gardians were overpowered, and they nerfed gardians ... Now they boosted SK, everybody flames how SKs are overpowered.People make class thread and get no answers. Monks and Bruisers are for adjustements for ages, no sign of answer ... same for guards and other classes.they need to finish what they had started, the fighter revamps. They did the first phase which changed things, sometimes for the better, other times for the worse. Now they need to do phase 2 to bring all fighters at the same lvl in hate generation when in def stance. If you have shard armor and have no aggro transfert, you're sure the wiz or warlock will take aggro most of the time.And When I look at the aggro bar, I cast a taunt, it doesn't change a thing, I try to hit ..; oh miss ... so I must use all my aggro spells to get back aggro but still, the wiz steal it from me just after my aggro spells have finished ... It shouldnt happen.I don't talk about easy mode, but it's really frustrating when you have to cast everything you have to have aggro for 5 sec.just my 2 cp

steelbadger

06-17-2009, 05:52 AM

<cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Of course I want Guardian mit and avoid, because it is better than mine- particularly the def stance buff which if used right is a big boost without much downside. I'm not at all saying it'd be balanced for me to HAVE that, however. With so much negativity though Guards should at least recognize what they do have.</blockquote>It's just a bit unfortunate that as a guard I only use my Def stance and shield for about 4 mobs across the entire game, and all of those can be tanked by our pally as well <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Mathafern

06-17-2009, 08:22 AM

One other thing that is a factor at least as far as raid tanking: mit is nice but crit mit is nicer.Everyone gets crit mit equally- well excepting some avatar brawler loot apparently but I don't really factor that. This detracts from the role of Guardian as MT IMO.Personally I prefer a guard as MT- I find OT very relaxing, MT very stressful. Plus I'm of the opinion that SK were designed (at least at some point, about the time myths were designed) to be OT, not MT. I'm all in favor of guards getting a crit mit AA, or some other base crit mit bonus.

Davngr1

06-17-2009, 02:09 PM

this thread is about NON RAID GUARD issues so raiding does not even play a factor. the fact is all the other plate tanks got great abilitys added to their eof/kos AA and guard some taken out. guardians need to be balanced at the core NOT with raid tanking in mind, i mean where is the disclaimer on the guard creation screen? this character will be unblanced untill you get your mythical weapon and raid gear, if you're looking for a balance class for heroic content please choose another tank. ps. not a brawler

RafaelSmith

06-17-2009, 03:24 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>this thread is about NON RAID GUARD issues so raiding does not even play a factor.the fact is all the other plate tanks got great abilitys added to their eof/kos AA and guard some taken out.guardians need to be balanced at the core NOT with raid tanking in mind, i mean where is the disclaimer on the guard creation screen? this character will be unblanced untill you get your mythical weapon and raid gear, if you're looking for a balance class for heroic content please choose another tank. ps. not a brawler</blockquote>Every discussion that starts out talking about Guardian problems in grouping end up talking about raids because thats the only thing the other fighters (minus brawlers) have to throw back at us. They seem to forget that over time they have gotten fixes/buffs to make them viable raid tanks while still maintaining superiority with grouping or soloing. Guardian raid nitch has dwindled and our disadvantages outside of raiding have grown.

steelbadger

06-17-2009, 08:42 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>this thread is about NON RAID GUARD issues so raiding does not even play a factor.the fact is all the other plate tanks got great abilitys added to their eof/kos AA and guard some taken out.guardians need to be balanced at the core NOT with raid tanking in mind, i mean where is the disclaimer on the guard creation screen? this character will be unblanced untill you get your mythical weapon and raid gear, if you're looking for a balance class for heroic content please choose another tank. ps. not a brawler</blockquote>Every discussion that starts out talking about Guardian problems in grouping end up talking about raids because thats the only thing the other fighters (minus brawlers) have to throw back at us. They seem to forget that over time they have gotten fixes/buffs to make them viable raid tanks while still maintaining superiority with grouping or soloing. Guardian raid nitch has dwindled and our disadvantages outside of raiding have grown.</blockquote>lol. Nitch.If Guards are just raid tanks then brawlers should stop crying, they are soloing kings and that's all that matters. Same goes for Summoners.

Davngr1

06-18-2009, 12:49 AM

^^^^ QFE you don't balance a class to do one thing

LygerT

06-18-2009, 05:32 PM

Aull

06-18-2009, 05:49 PM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>this thread is about NON RAID GUARD issues so raiding does not even play a factor.the fact is all the other plate tanks got great abilitys added to their eof/kos AA and guard some taken out.guardians need to be balanced at the core NOT with raid tanking in mind, i mean where is the disclaimer on the guard creation screen? this character will be unblanced untill you get your mythical weapon and raid gear, if you're looking for a balance class for heroic content please choose another tank. ps. not a brawler</blockquote>Every discussion that starts out talking about Guardian problems in grouping end up talking about raids because thats the only thing the other fighters (minus brawlers) have to throw back at us. They seem to forget that over time they have gotten fixes/buffs to make them viable raid tanks while still maintaining superiority with grouping or soloing. Guardian raid nitch has dwindled and our disadvantages outside of raiding have grown.</blockquote>lol. Nitch.If Guards are just raid tanks then brawlers should stop crying, they are soloing kings and that's all that matters. Same goes for Summoners.</blockquote>All things being equal an sk will solo the pants off any brawler just for the facts of higher mit, strong dps, and the ability to almost constantly leach life from the mob while also damaging it as well. Brawler avoidance is a joke vs higher lvl mobs and having less mit doesn't help either. Brawlers cannot heal as effectively as the sk can either.Brawlers are decent soloers but are no where near in compairson of an sk. Unless of course the brawler is in end raid gear and the sk is not.Summoners are better as well. Not to mention the enchanters since they can out do any other class when it comes to soloing and have excellent utility as back up for other endeavors.

steelbadger

06-18-2009, 06:13 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd have to say SKs are actually the solo kings now.</blockquote>SKs are better on 90% of solo content than brawlers, but then again they're also better than guards on 90% of raid content so the analogy stands.Guards are only superior tanks to SKs on the very very hardest raid nameds, and then only the first or second times through. In all other situations an SK can generate more hate with less loss of survivability than a guardian can.Brawlers are superior to SKs in one single area of the solo game: FD. A brawler can quickly chain FD to anywhere in the game, a feat an SK has a lot more difficulty achieving. Thus brawlers have a small niche where they perform better than the jack-of all trades SK. The same as Guards. Therefore if Guards are fine then Brawlers are fine.

RafaelSmith

06-18-2009, 06:25 PM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd have to say SKs are actually the solo kings now.</blockquote>SKs are better on 90% of solo content than brawlers, but then again they're also better than guards on 90% of raid content so the analogy stands.Guards are only superior tanks to SKs on the very very hardest raid nameds, and then only the first or second times through. In all other situations an SK can generate more hate with less loss of survivability than a guardian can.Brawlers are superior to SKs in one single area of the solo game: FD. A brawler can quickly chain FD to anywhere in the game, a feat an SK has a lot more difficulty achieving. Thus brawlers have a small niche where they perform better than the jack-of all trades SK. The same as Guards. Therefore if Guards are fine then Brawlers are fine.</blockquote>Careful......SOE being SOE will probably read this and conclude Brawlers are OP.But to be serious your post pretty much summarizes why I believe Fighter balance is way out of whack....Guardians ar not fine.....Brawlers are not fine.Too often people only look at specific area of the game....raids, etc.....I like to look at all of the games content as a whole...everything from soloing to top-end raiding.Just have to look at all the games content as a whole to see that the gives and takes that should be part of balance are seriously messed up.

Couching

06-18-2009, 07:17 PM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd have to say SKs are actually the solo kings now.</blockquote>SKs are better on 90% of solo content than brawlers, but then again they're also better than guards on 90% of raid content so the analogy stands.Guards are only superior tanks to SKs on the very very hardest raid nameds, and then only the first or second times through. In all other situations an SK can generate more hate with less loss of survivability than a guardian can.Brawlers are superior to SKs in one single area of the solo game: FD. A brawler can quickly chain FD to anywhere in the game, a feat an SK has a lot more difficulty achieving. Thus brawlers have a small niche where they perform better than the jack-of all trades SK. The same as Guards. Therefore if Guards are fine then Brawlers are fine.</blockquote>Everyone knows that sk is op in aggro/survivability/dps. Asking as op as sk (in aggro) is stupid and you won't get people agreed with you.Also, stop dragging brawlers in your arguments. Guardian is in much better shape than brawlers; better survivability and better aoe dps/aggro.

steelbadger

06-18-2009, 07:56 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd have to say SKs are actually the solo kings now.</blockquote>SKs are better on 90% of solo content than brawlers, but then again they're also better than guards on 90% of raid content so the analogy stands.Guards are only superior tanks to SKs on the very very hardest raid nameds, and then only the first or second times through. In all other situations an SK can generate more hate with less loss of survivability than a guardian can.Brawlers are superior to SKs in one single area of the solo game: FD. A brawler can quickly chain FD to anywhere in the game, a feat an SK has a lot more difficulty achieving. Thus brawlers have a small niche where they perform better than the jack-of all trades SK. The same as Guards. Therefore if Guards are fine then Brawlers are fine.</blockquote>Everyone knows that sk is op in aggro/survivability/dps. Asking as op as sk (in aggro) is stupid and you won't get people agreed with you.Also, stop dragging brawlers in your arguments. Guardian is in much better shape than brawlers; better survivability and better aoe dps/aggro.</blockquote>I think you misunderstand me, I am not supporting this situation in any way and believe that brawlers do need something to make them a more viable option as a raid tank and an equal option to other tank classes in heroic content. The purpose of my post was to attempt to aid the understanding of non guards by relating the situation guards are in with the situation that brawlers are in.I do believe that SKs are overpowered and I do not want the game balanced around god-like classes but I want to point out that Brawlers who tell Guards to stop QQing over their solo and group capabilities are being hypocritical as in the very same breath those brawlers complain about how brawlers are no good in raids/groups.So what is it? Is it OK for a class to be entirely focussed around one playstyle and relatively useless in the others or is it not OK?Think about it, for some reason people think that it is ok when applied to Guards but not ok when applied to brawlers. That doesn't work, that is inconsistant reasoning.I know why, of course, it is because the brawlers who are ill contented with their class are ill contented because they want to raid and so they regard Guards as simply "better off" because they are better in that one situation. If, however, you try to think about the situation from someone elses point of view, someone who prefers to solo then suddenly the whole situation gets turned on it's head, suddenly brawlers are the ones that have it great and guards are the ones that are hard done by.You do not believe Brawlers are fine. I think you are right, the difference is that I then apply the same reasoning that allowed me to reach that conclusion about the brawler class to the warrior class (lets face it, zerkers need help too) while you do not.

Landiin

06-19-2009, 02:37 AM

There is no spoon..

Raahl

06-29-2009, 04:32 PM

Kordran

06-29-2009, 04:49 PM

I suspect he's talking more about the singluar mindset that's apparent when it comes to class balance. Guardians are the premier raiding MT, so their weaknesses are papered over conceptually because of that one strength. It's similar to Paladins, who (before SKs) singularly excelled at aggro control, but a whole host of other issues were basically ignored with Amends being the justification (e.g.: sorry, can't give you that, you have Amends; nope, can't change that either, you have Amends...)This combination of zero-sum class balancing and tending to always extrapolate out to the top 5% has created a huge gulf in the tanking classes. You're either a raiding tank in full fabled, mythical and mastered out, or you find yourself screwed to the post, labeled as a "bad tank".