highest parse in class [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

View Full Version : highest parse in class

therodge

06-12-2009, 02:30 AM

so im running through eq2flames and i see this given im probobly about to open a massive can of crazy i thought it was interesting enough for the population to see (special note alot of these guilds pull multiples in palace so zws may be slightly scewed to aoe classess)alace of the Ancient One: Trash ZW Scout Troubador- 14k Pants <Tyranny> Oasis <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/troubadors/36534-tso-parse-thread-17.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/troubadors....thread-17.html</a> Dirge- 15k Nagash <Surreal> Barren Sky <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/dirges/17144-t8-dirge-parses-41.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/dirges/171....parses-41.html</a> Ranger- 19.7k Eden <Elventy> Harla Dar <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/rangers/26538-parses-upper-echelon-zones-30.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/rangers/26...n-zones-31.html</a> Assassin- 21.4K Dariuss <Surreal> Barren Sky <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/29477-assassin-parse-thread-36.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/....thread-36.html</a> Swashbuckler- 19.7k Koldsteel <Tyranny> Oasis <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/swashbucklers/25872-parse-thread-35.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/swashbuckl....thread-35.html</a> Brigand- 18k Jahfar <Surreal> Barren Sky <a href="http://radikal.ru/F/i003.radikal.ru/0905/c8/3af01c0838fa.png.html" target="_blank">http://radikal.ru/F/i003.radikal.ru....838fa.png.html</a> Mage Wizard- 23.5k Fomka <Surreal> Barren Sky <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/zones-population/46542-best-class-parse-thread-8.html#post991919" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/zones-popu....tml#post991919</a> Warlock- 23.2k Jozy <Surreal> Barren Sky <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/zones-population/46542-best-class-parse-thread-5.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/zones-popu....-thread-5.html</a> Conjuror- 16k Alliya <Exordium> Everfrost <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/conjurors/39299-new-new-parse-thread-11.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/conjurors/....thread-11.html</a> Necromancer- 19.5k Utopi <Tyranny> Oasis <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/necromancers/31530-new-t8-raid-parse-thread-11.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/necromance....thread-11.html</a> Illusionist- 25k Velo <Defiance> Permafrost <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/illusionists/37565-tso-parse-34.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/illusionis....-parse-34.html</a> Coercer- 19.4k Parable <Defiance> Permafrost <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/37094-tso-parse-thread-21.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/3....thread-21.html</a> Fighter Beserker- 12.9k Ecbarry <Ne Plus Ultra> Guk <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers/20169-random-berserker-zonewides-22.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers....ewides-22.html</a> Guardian- ? Paladin- 13k Stonestrong <Strike> Lucan D'Lere <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/32697-parse-thread-15.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/3....thread-15.html</a> Shadowknight- 17.9k Dagoneth <Saint of Norrath> Blackburrow <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/shadowknights/30680-official-sk-parse-thread-lol-20.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/shadowknig...ead-lol-15.html</a> Monk- 14.7k Blanka <Defiance> Permafrost <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/antonia-bayle/46190-htfu-recruiting-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/antonia-ba....ruiting-4.html</a> Bruiser- ? Priest Fury- 11.4 Furya <Surreal> Barren Sky <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/zones-population/46542-best-class-parse-thread-11.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/zones-popu....thread-11.html</a> Warden- 9.1k Wclarry <Ne Plus Ultra> Guk <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/zones-population/46542-best-class-parse-thread-9.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/zones-popu....-thread-9.html</a> Templar- ? Inquisitor- ? Mystic- 12.1K Timmuchin <Surreal> Barren Sky <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/mystics/38594-tso-mystic-raid-dps-parses-3.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/mystics/38....-parses-3.html</a> Defiler- 5.1k Zionn <Defiance> Permafrost <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/defilers/46674-bring-out-dps.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/defilers/4....g-out-dps.html</a>

Rahatmattata

06-12-2009, 03:18 AM

Yay for 25k dps illys.

Faenril

06-12-2009, 04:16 AM

Congratulations I knew someone would post it here, we have a winner it seems. You do realize this will lead to random ppl who get no clue about raiding calling for class nerfs without even knowing anything about the context which led to such numbers ? /clap

RandomCarnage

06-12-2009, 04:24 AM

Undoubtedly there will be some that use this as a justification for the nerf bat. Hopefully the dev's have enough clues to cut through the tears and make necessary tweaks based on class/server averages.On the other hand, this could serve as a resourse to be used by aspiring players who want to be as good as they can to measure themselves against. In the same way, guilds can use this as a benchmark to measure the relative performance of their members.

Faenril

06-12-2009, 04:41 AM

<cite>RandomCarnage wrote:</cite><blockquote>On the other hand, this could serve as a resourse to be used by aspiring players who want to be as good as they can to measure themselves against. In the same way, guilds can use this as a benchmark to measure the relative performance of their members.</blockquote>Me think ppl who care about their performance already know where to find their class parse threads and such resources.

krrr

06-12-2009, 05:20 AM

This thread is useless. It proves exactly nothing.

steelbadger

06-12-2009, 05:26 AM

<cite>Darlock@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread is useless. It proves exactly nothing.</blockquote>I disagree!It proves Defiler dps is truly abysmal.

Faenril

06-12-2009, 06:18 AM

That's just because the defiler is struggling to keep the tank up while the templar is dpsing <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

shadowscale

06-12-2009, 06:25 AM

Necromancer- 19.5k..... how the hell did they pull that off?

de lori

06-12-2009, 07:17 AM

<cite>RandomCarnage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Undoubtedly there will be some that use this as a justification for the nerf bat.</blockquote>yes....because all T1 dps from all avatar guilds WW obviously suck balls to be beaten by a perfectly balanced class like an illy.can i buy another stacking trigger for pris adorn anywhere?...seriously.

Noaani

06-12-2009, 07:46 AM

<cite>shadowscale wrote:</cite><blockquote>Necromancer- 19.5k..... how the hell did they pull that off?</blockquote>It has been said time and again that summoner DPS is in a good enough position all up. The issue is, most summoners are unable to make the most of their class.I'm supprised at how low the conjuror parse is here.

Noaani

06-12-2009, 07:47 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You do realize this will lead to random ppl who get no clue about raiding calling for class nerfs without even knowing anything about the context which led to such numbers ? </blockquote>The only class that this demonstrates may warrent a nerf has both people already saying it needs a nerf and a mechanics developer saying it will be nerfed.Have fun.

Faenril

06-12-2009, 07:57 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You do realize this will lead to random ppl who get no clue about raiding calling for class nerfs without even knowing anything about the context which led to such numbers ? </blockquote>The only class that this demonstrates may warrent a nerf has both people already saying it needs a nerf and a mechanics developer saying it will be nerfed.Have fun.</blockquote>Have fun with nerfed raid dps. Sure as hell spending 5 minutes more on palace trash will be a huge balance improvement.Wait ... 10 minutes more because chanters will be /afk autofollow

de lori

06-12-2009, 07:59 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You do realize this will lead to random ppl who get no clue about raiding calling for class nerfs without even knowing anything about the context which led to such numbers ? </blockquote>The only class that this demonstrates may warrent a nerf has both people already saying it needs a nerf and a mechanics developer saying it will be nerfed.Have fun.</blockquote>Have fun with nerfed raid dps. Sure as hell spending 5 minutes more on palace trash will be a huge balance improvement.Wait ... 10 minutes more because chanters will be /afk autofollow</blockquote>mebe some guilds will kick them and get some summoners in....lawl

Noaani

06-12-2009, 08:01 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You do realize this will lead to random ppl who get no clue about raiding calling for class nerfs without even knowing anything about the context which led to such numbers ? </blockquote>The only class that this demonstrates may warrent a nerf has both people already saying it needs a nerf and a mechanics developer saying it will be nerfed.Have fun.</blockquote>Have fun with nerfed raid dps. Sure as hell spending 5 minutes more on palace trash will be a huge balance improvement.Wait ... 10 minutes more because chanters will be /afk autofollow</blockquote>Your right, lets leave classes unbalanced just because balancing them would mean we spend 5 more minutes clearing a group of mobs twice a week...

Faenril

06-12-2009, 08:03 AM

Also I really like how palace trash is used as a benchmark for evaluating class dps ranks... Last time I checked palace trash does not drop any significant loot, and no TSO named raid mob is a pure tank and spank. Do your chanters top the parse on AE heavy encounters, power drain mobs or mobs with insane reactive debuffs (like 90% of TSO raid nameds) ?

Noaani

06-12-2009, 08:13 AM

Palace trash is a benchmark for each class and its ST DPS potential. The only real outside factor with these mobs is the fact that pulling 2 at a time is normal, which gives an advantage to classes with large multi encounter AEs.The OP of this thread means nothing to a developer, don't even think for a second that it would. All it is, essentially, is someone saying "hey, this is the best parse I am able to find for each class on a pre defined set of mobs that are essentially a training dummy for raids."...Its not presenting any new information, and its not suggesting anything at all. The only possible deductions that players could get from the OP are already known by developers, and they have already said they intend on addressing most of them.

Noaani

06-12-2009, 08:15 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do your chanters top the parse on AE heavy encounters, power drain mobs or mobs with insane reactive debuffs (like 90% of TSO raid nameds) ?</blockquote>Chanters do too much DPS for the amount of utility they bring to a grou por raid. Accept that one or the other is going to need to go.

Faenril

06-12-2009, 08:30 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Palace trash is a benchmark for each class and its ST DPS potential. The only real outside factor with these mobs is the fact that pulling 2 at a time is normal, which gives an advantage to classes with large multi encounter AEs.The OP of this thread means nothing to a developer, don't even think for a second that it would. All it is, essentially, is someone saying "hey, this is the best parse I am able to find for each class on a pre defined set of mobs that are essentially a training dummy for raids."...Its not presenting any new information, and its not suggesting anything at all. The only possible deductions that players could get from the OP are already known by developers, and they have already said they intend on addressing most of them.</blockquote>The OP might be full of good intentions, but the information in that thread will be used as an argument to support class nerfs.Or let's reverse the argument: according to this chart, necromancers are fine right ? So would you say necromancers don't need any change ?

Faenril

06-12-2009, 08:41 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do your chanters top the parse on AE heavy encounters, power drain mobs or mobs with insane reactive debuffs (like 90% of TSO raid nameds) ?</blockquote>Chanters do too much DPS for the amount of utility they bring to a grou por raid. Accept that one or the other is going to need to go.</blockquote>Gratz on not answering the question (convenient when the answer does not support your opinion, I know).So once chanters are nerfed and you feel appeased:- how many spots currently occupied by chanters will be free for other classes ? Most likely none.- Will instance groups stop bringing enchanters along and preferably pick summoners ? No they won't.So all you do by nerfing enchanters is reduce overall raid dps, you don't fix any class desirability issue at all.Those Palace trash parse only show one kind of encounter, where all odds are ideally stacked in favor of enchanters. So it's no wonder they do extremelly well. If ppl want to talk about class balance dps issues, then let's also bring parses from instance groups, from avatar fights, from power/detrimental heavy fights like trakkanon, byzola, Zarrakon and what not...Do raid leaders base their setup on who parse higher on palace trash, or do they bring the classes that are needed to kill the mobs that really matter ?

Noaani

06-12-2009, 09:46 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or let's reverse the argument: according to this chart, necromancers are fine right ? So would you say necromancers don't need any change ?</blockquote>In terms of personal DPS, no they don't.But then, I've been saying that since TSO beta.

jayden0831

06-12-2009, 09:49 AM

I understand that this is trash and has alot of encounters but shouldn't warlocks and wizards be on top in that case? I have no issue with Illies doing good DPS but I was under the impression that locks and wizards should be top dog in encouters and sassies/rangers for single target.Keep in mind I have not raided and I am fairly new but this is really a disapointment. Why can't they lower utility a little and raise dps for dps classes? Balance it better in a way where no time is lost but one might have to revisit group set up.Maybe I am missing a fundemental part of eq2, gear maybe? But this in my opinion should be a facter that makes one better in a particular class, not better than other classes, if that makes sense.

Noaani

06-12-2009, 09:52 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So once chanters are nerfed and you feel appeased:- how many spots currently occupied by chanters will be free for other classes ? Most likely none.- Will instance groups stop bringing enchanters along and preferably pick summoners ? No they won't.So all you do by nerfing enchanters is reduce overall raid dps, you don't fix any class desirability issue at all.</blockquote>Since when has class balance been based on how wants to take what class for a group/raid?Seriously, when?This exact argument could have been used to stop coercers from getting the DPS increases they got reciently. It didn't alter the desire to have a coercer in a group, and it didn't change the number of coercers raids use.Reducing chanter DPS is one step towards making summoners wanted. Step 1: reduce chanter DPS to 10 - 15% less than that of a summoner, step 2, give summoners 85 - 90% of the utility chanters have. Without reducing the DPS of chanters, you have to give summoners MORE utility than a summoner brings to a grou por raid in order to balance that class.All of this is only looking within the mage archtype. If you leave it and start looking at all 24 classes, the need to nerf chanters DPS does not change.

Noaani

06-12-2009, 09:52 AM

<cite>jayden0831 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I understand that this is trash and has alot of encounters but shouldn't warlocks and wizards be on top in that case? I have no issue with Illies doing good DPS but I was under the impression that locks and wizards should be top dog in encouters and sassies/rangers for single target.</blockquote>Its all single target, though many guilds pull multiple mobs at the same time.

Noaani

06-12-2009, 09:55 AM

btw, this thread is either going to be locked, or the OP heavily edited... links to flames = bad on these forums...

krrr

06-12-2009, 09:58 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Reducing chanter DPS is one step towards making summoners wanted. Step 1: reduce chanter DPS to 10 - 15% less than that of a summoner, step 2, give summoners 85 - 90% of the utility chanters have. Without reducing the DPS of chanters, you have to give summoners MORE utility than a summoner brings to a grou por raid in order to balance that class.</blockquote>Wrong. If you give summoners enough utility, you'll only create another "most wanted" class and leave even less places in group/raid for other classes.

Noaani

06-12-2009, 10:04 AM

That depends 100% on what that utility is, how much (if at all) it stacks, and whether or not it is needed on every encounter.

Faenril

06-12-2009, 10:18 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So once chanters are nerfed and you feel appeased:- how many spots currently occupied by chanters will be free for other classes ? Most likely none.- Will instance groups stop bringing enchanters along and preferably pick summoners ? No they won't.So all you do by nerfing enchanters is reduce overall raid dps, you don't fix any class desirability issue at all.</blockquote>Since when has class balance been based on how wants to take what class for a group/raid?Seriously, when?This exact argument could have been used to stop coercers from getting the DPS increases they got reciently. It didn't alter the desire to have a coercer in a group, and it didn't change the number of coercers raids use.Reducing chanter DPS is one step towards making summoners wanted. Step 1: reduce chanter DPS to 10 - 15% less than that of a summoner, step 2, give summoners 85 - 90% of the utility chanters have. Without reducing the DPS of chanters, you have to give summoners MORE utility than a summoner brings to a grou por raid in order to balance that class.All of this is only looking within the mage archtype. If you leave it and start looking at all 24 classes, the need to nerf chanters DPS does not change.</blockquote>What's the point of class balance, if not giving fair chances for everyone to see the content ?Please explain...Or what is your definition of class balance, and how does it help the game ?

Khurghan

06-12-2009, 10:35 AM

Nerf Bats armed....Fire at will!!!Glad to see guards finally learned to keep their traps shut.p.s. seen a couple of 70k+ illusionist parses on the 1st ae trap in palace, just saying.

Geothe

06-12-2009, 10:39 AM

These parses pretty much show what everyone already knows:Chanters (especially illys, and to a part coercers too) parse way too high for the amount of utility they bring.(They should pretty much be on par with Bards who bring a similar amount of utility).SKs parse too high in comparsion to other fighters, and DPS.t1 scout DPS (Preds) could use about a 10% increase so they are even with Sorcs.

Noaani

06-12-2009, 10:52 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's the point of class balance, if not giving fair chances for everyone to see the content ?Please explain...Or what is your definition of class balance, and how does it help the game ?</blockquote>Everyone haas always had a fair chance at seeing all the content, currently all you need to do is roll a chanter or bard and level it up.However, players seeing content has nothing to do with class balance, if it did chanter DPS and utility would both be taing a massive hit to the point where they offer the raid as much as a summoner currently does.

Yimway

06-12-2009, 11:04 AM

EasternKing

06-12-2009, 11:14 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shadowscale wrote:</cite><blockquote>Necromancer- 19.5k..... how the hell did they pull that off?</blockquote>It has been said time and again that summoner DPS is in a good enough position all up. The issue is, most summoners are unable to make the most of their class.I'm supprised at how low the conjuror parse is here.</blockquote>Cause yeah, summoner dps is about player skill and not specific pieces of gear...</blockquote>casue yeah all the top dps'ers in this listing is about skill and not specific peices of gear...see what i did there.all of them are parsing so high because of gear, period.

Rijacki

06-12-2009, 11:18 AM

Deson

06-12-2009, 11:18 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>btw, this thread is either going to be locked, or the OP heavily edited... links to flames = bad on these forums...</blockquote>No they don't. Links to the profane= bad on these forums and those links are fine.

Faenril

06-12-2009, 11:21 AM

Yimway

06-12-2009, 11:27 AM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>casue yeah all the top dps'ers in this listing is about skill and not specific peices of gear...see what i did there.all of them are parsing so high because of gear, period.</blockquote>Yes, but look at the deviation between 'average raider' and top parse across the classes. In my experience summoner has the highest deviation.But, as I've said before, that could just be every sommuner I ever met sucked. Thats entirely possible.

EasternKing

06-12-2009, 11:30 AM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do your chanters top the parse on AE heavy encounters, power drain mobs or mobs with insane reactive debuffs (like 90% of TSO raid nameds) ?</blockquote>Chanters do too much DPS for the amount of utility they bring to a grou por raid. Accept that one or the other is going to need to go.</blockquote>Yet the coercer in those parses is just about exactly where you have often said coercers belong (tossing out the conjurors parse you deemed as low). Or did you just mean -illusionists- when you say "chanters". Illusionists also have more utility than coercer and are useful in more group types than coercer. There are also generally 3 illusionists desired on a raid (that whole help more group types thing) to one coercer.I really wish you, and others, would stop stop stop saying "chanter" when you are specifying illusionist.</blockquote>just LOL @ coercer is where they are supposed to be..did you not notice that is above Brigands by nearly 2k? brigands are supposed to be same bracket a Swash / Necro / Conjy , Coercers & Illus are supposed to be Bards Dps bracket.Both chanter class's have 1 to much dps out put, 2 to much utility for said out put, 3 to much other good stuff for said dps.so what is the point of taking a sorc along? you could have a group Inquis/Troub/Illu/Illu/Illu/Illu and each illu can TC the next so they all have it, get tons of utlity and dont lose any raid dps...in fact you gain raid dps.chanters both need fixing asap.

Deson

06-12-2009, 11:34 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>casue yeah all the top dps'ers in this listing is about skill and not specific peices of gear...see what i did there.all of them are parsing so high because of gear, period.</blockquote>Yes, but look at the deviation between 'average raider' and top parse across the classes. In my experience summoner has the highest deviation.But, as I've said before, that could just be every sommuner I ever met sucked. Thats entirely possible.</blockquote>Most do( more than even the average of other players). It's a lot of work parsing on a summoner and being competitive means using every trick in the book at all times. It's also not helped by the odd spot of Summoners in the game not having utility and not being DPS so, utility players grab chanters, DPS grab Sorc's and summoners are mostly left for people with EQ1 nostalgia and people who want a solo char.

Rijacki

06-12-2009, 11:47 AM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do your chanters top the parse on AE heavy encounters, power drain mobs or mobs with insane reactive debuffs (like 90% of TSO raid nameds) ?</blockquote>Chanters do too much DPS for the amount of utility they bring to a grou por raid. Accept that one or the other is going to need to go.</blockquote>Yet the coercer in those parses is just about exactly where you have often said coercers belong (tossing out the conjurors parse you deemed as low). Or did you just mean -illusionists- when you say "chanters". Illusionists also have more utility than coercer and are useful in more group types than coercer. There are also generally 3 illusionists desired on a raid (that whole help more group types thing) to one coercer.I really wish you, and others, would stop stop stop saying "chanter" when you are specifying illusionist.</blockquote>just LOL @ coercer is where they are supposed to be..did you not notice that is above Brigands by nearly 2k? brigands are supposed to be same bracket a Swash / Necro / Conjy , Coercers & Illus are supposed to be Bards Dps bracket.Both chanter class's have 1 to much dps out put, 2 to much utility for said out put, 3 to much other good stuff for said dps.so what is the point of taking a sorc along? you could have a group Inquis/Troub/Illu/Illu/Illu/Illu and each illu can TC the next so they all have it, get tons of utlity and dont lose any raid dps...in fact you gain raid dps.chanters both need fixing asap.</blockquote>Noaani is constantly claiming chanters should be just below summoners in damage. The coercer in those parses was. I didn't even look at scouts 'cause that's not where Noaani compares and I was responsing to Noaani's post."so what is the point of taking a sorc along? you could have a group Inquis/Troub/Illu/Illu/Illu/Illu and each illu can TC the next so they all have it, get tons of utlity and dont lose any raid dps...in fact you gain raid dps."And this is -chanters- or -illusionists-? Yes, I agree with your that currently you could take illusionists instead of sorcerers and lose almost nothing in the exchange. Could you say the same about an Inquis/Troub/Coercer/Coercer/Coercer/Coercer group? ahhhh no, you can't. Therefore it is an ILLUSIONIST comment/complaint and not a COERCER comment/complaint, right?Illusionists have more utility than coercers and always have. Before GU45, coercers weren't asking for more dps to match illusionists (but, yeah, it was nice to get that boost), they were asking for more utility to match.Do I think coercers are parsing higher than they should? As someone who has a coercer as her raid main (not hardcore raiding), yes, I do. BUT, I also don't think they have as much utility as they should in comparison to illusionists AND their utility vs dps is -heaps- lower than that of the illusionists. When chanters as a whole get their dps nerfed (yes, I know it's coming), illusionists will be fine because they do have the utility as well. Coercers, though, will be mostly back to what they were pre-GU45, without much utility and most groups/raids questioning whether they even need a coercer and not just another illusionist.My point in my response is that coercers and illusionists are lumped together. Anytime anyone has something to say against the DPS or DPS+utility of an ILLUSIONIST (such as your sorcerer substitution comment), in the same breath they say "chanters" as if coercers are identical to illusionists in what they bring utility-wise and even dps-wise. They aren't the same by a LONG shot.

Faenril

06-12-2009, 12:12 PM

Except the coercer's best parse was done with: Berserker, Mystic, Templar, Dirge, Swashbuckler When the illy's best was with: Inq, Wiz, Dirge, Troub, Ranger It's pretty obvious which one is more stacked toward mage dps, and that the coercer would probably parse higher in that illy's group. That's why this thread is stupid when it comes to comparing classes dps, a parse without all context information means nothing....

Tehom

06-12-2009, 01:14 PM

Gosh, assassins do better than rangers on palace trash, they must be the superior raiding class!!11!eleventy!Anyone who draws any conclusions about class balance from palace trash parses is too ignorant to have anything meaningful to say about raids or how classes relate to them.

Noaani

06-12-2009, 01:35 PM

hellfire

06-12-2009, 01:45 PM

Everyone needs a nerf and conj need buff....the parses prove it!!!!

Gilasil

06-12-2009, 02:25 PM

LOL no stats for bruiserOf course, before you can get the DPS of a class in a raid, you have to get someone from that class INTO the raid.

Malacha

06-12-2009, 03:53 PM

Pretty wild conclusions being drawn from this post. First, not everyone has posted their "best" parse on eq2flames. I'm sure there are parses out there that beat out what was posted, but the person just doesn't feel the need to justify or share. /shrug.(and no, I'm not one of those people lol! I'm impressed with a Mystic that can do that kind of dps, its more than most Mystics I know can put out)

Germs666

06-12-2009, 08:59 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shadowscale wrote:</cite><blockquote>Necromancer- 19.5k..... how the hell did they pull that off?</blockquote>It has been said time and again that summoner DPS is in a good enough position all up. The issue is, most summoners are unable to make the most of their class.I'm supprised at how low the conjuror parse is here.</blockquote>No. everybody parses Palace trash because of Greater Void Bane and it's a chance for people to stroke their [Removed for Content].It's all procs (look at the 25k illy parse) This should not reflect the state of class balance at all.Utopi (the necro) posts all of these threads on eq2 flames when he has all the raid buffs in the world and on specific encounters to basically stroke his ego and prove that he's the most uber necro evar.I never see any parses outside of Place from him like Shard of hate? He is also sporting Avatar gear so comparing the necro population to his best Zonewide in a specific zone does not mean we are not broken by any means.

Geothe

06-12-2009, 09:16 PM

Actually, I do believe all those parses are from post proc fix.

Malacha

06-12-2009, 09:57 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, I do believe all those parses are from post proc fix.</blockquote>That's pretty amazing considering the "proc fix" is still on test...

hellfire

06-12-2009, 10:41 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, I do believe all those parses are from post proc fix.</blockquote>That's pretty amazing considering the "proc fix" is still on test...</blockquote>First proc fix was done in april.The one on test is a proc nerf.

Malacha

06-13-2009, 04:13 AM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, I do believe all those parses are from post proc fix.</blockquote>That's pretty amazing considering the "proc fix" is still on test...</blockquote>First proc fix was done in april.The one on test is a proc nerf.</blockquote>Wasn't the one in April specific to GVB? In any case, I am fairly sure the Mystic was was pre-GVB change, its the only one I'm remotely familiar with.

Davngr1

06-13-2009, 04:18 AM

Davngr1

06-13-2009, 04:20 AM

<cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shadowscale wrote:</cite><blockquote>Necromancer- 19.5k..... how the hell did they pull that off?</blockquote>It has been said time and again that summoner DPS is in a good enough position all up. The issue is, most summoners are unable to make the most of their class.I'm supprised at how low the conjuror parse is here.</blockquote>No. everybody parses Palace trash because of Greater Void Bane and it's a chance for people to stroke their [Removed for Content].It's all procs (look at the 25k illy parse) This should not reflect the state of class balance at all.Utopi (the necro) posts all of these threads on eq2 flames when he has all the raid buffs in the world and on specific encounters to basically stroke his ego and prove that he's the most uber necro evar.I never see any parses outside of Place from him like Shard of hate? He is also sporting Avatar gear so comparing the necro population to his best Zonewide in a specific zone does not mean we are not broken by any means.</blockquote> he post avatar parses as well

Noaani

06-13-2009, 06:27 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Utopi is indeed a good necro and also stacks his group every night since he is the raid/guild leader. summoner dps is doing ok but his numbers ARE NOT the norm. </blockquote>Every single one of the parses listed are a result of stacked groups, don't assume otherwise.

Kigneer

06-13-2009, 06:47 AM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darlock@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread is useless. It proves exactly nothing.</blockquote>I disagree!It proves Defiler dps is truly abysmal.</blockquote>It means really nothing, as dps doesn't define a class nor a player. It's a random number.Rather have consistency than a stray blip, much like that 44k magical hit I had which was a one time event. It's why when I'm in groups and see consistent dps or high melee numbers that are like 10k, I pat the dude/dudette on the back for it.

Noaani

06-13-2009, 07:02 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>It means really nothing, as dps doesn't define a class nor a player. It's a random number.Rather have consistency than a stray blip, much like that 44k magical hit I had which was a one time event. It's why when I'm in groups and see consistent dps or high melee numbers that are like 10k, I pat the dude/dudette on the back for it.</blockquote>See, thats why zonewide DPS is worth looking at. If that person had a single 44k hit, he would have a single encounter that had a high parse, and then somewhat lower for the rest. If a player was doing a good job on every encounter, then their parse will reflect that.Your right in that DPS is a number, but its definatly not random.

Faenril

06-13-2009, 09:44 AM

it's a trash zonewide (and not all trash even), not a zonewide, big difference.

Noaani

06-13-2009, 10:12 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>it's a trash zonewide (and not all trash even), not a zonewide, big difference.</blockquote>I know what it is, and I know the difference.The difference is it took the encounters out of the zone that benefit some classes more than others, and left the mobs that are a pure DPS feast. This is as close to a pure example of potential raid level DPS of each of the classes presented at the top end of the game.Sure, some encounters have things that lower a specific classes DPS, but other mobs have things that lower other classes. The encounters in the OP parse favor no one.It is a parse on a pre defined set of encounters, encounters that do not change, and that have no stratigy to them at all. While it may not be every encounter in the zone, and thus not a "zone wide" parse, calling it a zone wide parse is a semantics argument, which is something you are welcome to participate in, if you can find someone to join you.

Rijacki

06-13-2009, 10:47 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do your chanters top the parse on AE heavy encounters, power drain mobs or mobs with insane reactive debuffs (like 90% of TSO raid nameds) ?</blockquote>Chanters do too much DPS for the amount of utility they bring to a grou por raid. Accept that one or the other is going to need to go.</blockquote>Yet the coercer in those parses is just about exactly where you have often said coercers belong (tossing out the conjurors parse you deemed as low). Or did you just mean -illusionists- when you say "chanters". </blockquote>I've said before to you that when people talk about nerfing chanter DPS, they are almost exclusivly talking about illusionists.</blockquote>If you mean illusionist, say "illusionist" and not "chanter". It's the same thing with using "bard" when you mean "dirge".

Faenril

06-13-2009, 01:30 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>it's a trash zonewide (and not all trash even), not a zonewide, big difference.</blockquote>I know what it is, and I know the difference.The difference is it took the encounters out of the zone that benefit some classes more than others, and left the mobs that are a pure DPS feast. This is as close to a pure example of potential raid level DPS of each of the classes presented at the top end of the game.Sure, some encounters have things that lower a specific classes DPS, but other mobs have things that lower other classes. The encounters in the OP parse favor no one.It is a parse on a pre defined set of encounters, encounters that do not change, and that have no stratigy to them at all. While it may not be every encounter in the zone, and thus not a "zone wide" parse, calling it a zone wide parse is a semantics argument, which is something you are welcome to participate in, if you can find someone to join you.</blockquote>I hear ya, get your point.But once again measuring the potential dps of classes on only 1 kind of encounter is biased. Because the encounters that actually make progression and that actually drop loot do require different kind of classes, and on every named mob a different class may shine. Maybe I top the parse on tythus, and maybe I'm in the middle on gynok (throwing random names here).You say it's not biased ... Well one may argue that palace trash is biased toward single target because it's solo encounters (granted some pull multi encounters but that's not the point). Or it's biased toward melee dps because there is no aoe to worry about ?So... wonderful we have a measure of theoritical single target dps in a perfectly stacked group on "helpless" targets... Last time I checked this has nothing to do with the reality of a named encounter with a complex script to follow, some detrimentals, adds, aoes and various fail conditions. You know ... the kind of encounters the game actually measures your skill with, and rewards you for.Also as far I know guilds clearing end game content still bring wizards and warlocks along... So don't really see the issue here.When the game will give us loot based on our raid dps on palace trash, then maybe we can talk. Until that time... Well you know what they say about opinions... Gratz your raid broke 250 K ! Here is an avatar chest for you !

Davngr1

06-13-2009, 04:03 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Utopi is indeed a good necro and also stacks his group every night since he is the raid/guild leader. summoner dps is doing ok but his numbers ARE NOT the norm. </blockquote>Every single one of the parses listed are a result of stacked groups, don't assume otherwise.</blockquote> indeed sir but in most raid forces the necros needs are FAR down in the priority list (if they get in) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

Malacha

06-13-2009, 04:06 PM

Faenril,I think you're misconstruing the whole thread. EVERYONE knows that these numbers are not FACT of how well anyone can dps. It doesn't show how skilled each class is. It is merely a representation of the dps POTENTIAL of every class in as "scientific" as we can get in this game. Its a set number of mobs, in a set environment, with little preventing dps, so it is a good way to show potential, but far from showing what classes are capable of in a true raiding environment. The numbers are clearly skewed, no one is denying that, but the fact is, they're all skewed the same way for everyone, meaning that its still as "fair" as it gets.You are 100% right, these don't show how the classes REALLY do, it merely shows how well they CAN do, in "perfect" circumstances.

Gaige

06-13-2009, 04:08 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>But once again measuring the potential dps of classes on only 1 kind of encounter is biased. Because the encounters that actually make progression and that actually drop loot do require different kind of classes, and on every named mob a different class may shine. Maybe I top the parse on tythus, and maybe I'm in the middle on gynok (throwing random names here).You say it's not biased ... Well one may argue that palace trash is biased toward single target because it's solo encounters (granted some pull multi encounters but that's not the point). Or it's biased toward melee dps because there is no aoe to worry about ?When the game will give us loot based on our raid dps on palace trash, then maybe we can talk. Until that time... Well you know what they say about opinions... Gratz your raid broke 250 K ! Here is an avatar chest for you !</blockquote>Named aren't biased towards which dps class is better, they're biased towards healers and tanks. That is why people don't use named to compare parses unless its like an avatar or something, and even then its really just a "in this group with these healers I was able to parse this amount on Growth as a ranger with this fight duration". Its still almost like comparing apples to oranges.Palace trash is used as the measuring stick because you pull it and everyone can go all out on it. No cures needed, no stupid KBs, no AEs -- nothing that skews the results or puts reliance on anything other than the DPS class to do the best the can (outside of the obvious group setup).Sure its single target but its still a good measuring stick when you consider how well "AE" classes are doing on these trash runs and then just take it for granted that they'd parse a little better on an AE encounter.Named encounters are not worth parsing to show potential, they show skill but only the skill of your entire raid at dealing with the script. They don't show the skill of individual classes when it comes to DPS output.

Davngr1

06-13-2009, 04:10 PM

i woulden't call 25 or whatever single mobs *perfect* circumstances for AE dps classes. i really with this crap would have never made it to this site :

Malacha

06-13-2009, 04:13 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> i woulden't call 25 or whatever single mobs *perfect* circumstances for AE dps classes. i really with this crap would have never made it to this site :</blockquote>I put perfect in quotes, and still, most guilds pull mutiples, so those AE classes do get fair representation, I think.

Gaige

06-13-2009, 04:14 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> i woulden't call 25 or whatever single mobs *perfect* circumstances for AE dps classes. i really with this crap would have never made it to this site :</blockquote>If you think that AE classes can't dps on single targets you're silly. In fact AE classes fair better on single targets than the other way around.Considering the majority of this game is single target, comparisons of single target potential make sense. Outside of adds on avatars or fights like Ykesha when does AE dps even matter? A few fights an expansion like Gynok? Woop ti do.You can call it crap all you want but all it shows is how classes played by good players with good gear and a (usually) good supporting cast can do DPS wise. It shows potential. It shows an average ceiling for like geared/played classes. Will every necro come close to these numbers? No. Could every necro in the right guild, with the right gear who is played by someone who knows the class? Yes. That is why its useful.Does this list mean you're not doing it right if you aren't parsing 19k as a ranger or 14k as a dirge? No. It just shows you what you could do if you had better gear and were surrounded by like minded players in better gear.Quit getting so [Removed for Content] about it.

Davngr1

06-13-2009, 04:26 PM

exept for SK and zerk most AE classes need linked mobs to exel so you think wrong. im not butt hurt just hope this does not bring negative back lash and these fights have very little to do with skill. it's mostly raid dps/gear/buffs, skills are evident in the harder encounters and all of the players posted also exel in those, but its still silly. i guess i still like true ZWs to compare raid worth.

Gaige

06-13-2009, 04:35 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>im not butt hurt just hope this does not bring negative back lash and these fights have very little to do with skill. it's mostly raid dps/gear/buffs, skills are evident in the harder encounters and all of the players posted also exel in those, but its still silly. i guess i still like true ZWs to compare raid worth.</blockquote>See, this is the problem with raiders of limited experience. Harder fights do NOT show the skill of a particular DPS class. They show the skill of the healers and the fighters. Two equally skilled rangers could be fighting an avatar and if one of those rangers gets timely cures and can actually cast his CAs and the other ranger gets stuck with a terribad healer so he stands there stifled/stunned/rooted/dazed not able to do anything how does the parse of that fight prove anything? It doesn't. It proves what the ranger class can do on that fight when they have a good healer that keeps them cured? Hooray. On palace trash much more of the weight of excelling is placed on the actual player instead of other members of the group/raid.Then there is also the randomness of fights. Ranger A fights Thet and never gets the curse and gets timely cures and stands there bashing the named in for the entire fight. Ranger B gets the add curse twice and has to run around killing adds, then he has a crappy healer and dies to the noxious and has to rez and rebuff woops named is dead he did like 3k he must be terrible.No.Parsing named has way too many variables the class parsing can't control to ever really be useful for anything other than a "look I parsed this much on War".For parses to make sense in a comparative context the elements of the fight have to be controllabe by the player doing the parsing. The only variable on Palace trash is group setup and raid dps. Which is why those variables are also posted along with the parse.All that said imo the only thing I care about is % of raid dps parsed. As a ranger if I parse between 10 and 12% of our raids dps, I feel like I'm doing my job and should be adored by the casual rangers out there with pictures of me in their inn room.

Davngr1

06-13-2009, 04:47 PM

i have plenty of experiance with bad healers and bad luck on agro/curses/cures/stuns. but a zw includes all the names and all the thrash thus gives a much better calculation of raid worth. sure that crap healer or that bad carma will haunt you on some names but your performance in the rest of the zone will carry or sink you. i just don't think this post has any realy purpose in this site but oh well what's done is done.

Malacha

06-14-2009, 06:48 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have plenty of experiance with bad healers and bad luck on agro/curses/cures/stuns. but a zw includes all the names and all the thrash thus gives a much better calculation of raid worth. sure that crap healer or that bad carma will haunt you on some names but your performance in the rest of the zone will carry or sink you. i just don't think this post has any realy purpose in this site but oh well what's done is done.</blockquote>Seriously, are you not listening? We completely agree that the "true worth" of a player is not determined by their parse on trash. We all agree that these parses are not representative of what NORMALLY happens, either within an entire raid zone, or comparing to other players of lesser gear/crappy groups/lazy healers. The OP of this thread clearly was tyring to make a point, but fails by using parses that are not indicative of the true worth of everything a class brings to the raid or group.But that being said, they ARE indicative of the DPS potential of a given class, if compared against a data set that remains unchanging and unchallenging. It doesn't paint a complete picture, and I don't think anyone here (well some people but clearly they have no idea what they're talking about) is even claiming that these parses are "fact" and the only things worth considering when balancing classes.

d3caffed

06-15-2009, 09:07 AM

What also whould be very interesting is if these top of the class players did the same parse in palace with shard2 stuff, and legendary jewelry gear. to see how the different classes excel from average Joe gear to top gear.Generally balancing a class based on "top of the class parses" isnt making anyone happy.

Aull

06-15-2009, 07:09 PM

Never boast or post a big parse. It draws attention when classes parse high that are not true dps. Try and keep what you have. Nothing better than reading the forms about how a certain class cannot dps well then someone throws up a 20k fight on palace trash with that very class.Crazy peeps.

Asif

06-15-2009, 07:21 PM

<cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>im not butt hurt just hope this does not bring negative back lash and these fights have very little to do with skill. it's mostly raid dps/gear/buffs, skills are evident in the harder encounters and all of the players posted also exel in those, but its still silly. i guess i still like true ZWs to compare raid worth.</blockquote>See, this is the problem with raiders of limited experience. Harder fights do NOT show the skill of a particular DPS class. They show the skill of the healers and the fighters. Two equally skilled rangers could be fighting an avatar and if one of those rangers gets timely cures and can actually cast his CAs and the other ranger gets stuck with a terribad healer so he stands there stifled/stunned/rooted/dazed not able to do anything how does the parse of that fight prove anything? It doesn't. It proves what the ranger class can do on that fight when they have a good healer that keeps them cured? Hooray. On palace trash much more of the weight of excelling is placed on the actual player instead of other members of the group/raid.Then there is also the randomness of fights. Ranger A fights Thet and never gets the curse and gets timely cures and stands there bashing the named in for the entire fight. Ranger B gets the add curse twice and has to run around killing adds, then he has a crappy healer and dies to the noxious and has to rez and rebuff woops named is dead he did like 3k he must be terrible.No.Parsing named has way too many variables the class parsing can't control to ever really be useful for anything other than a "look I parsed this much on War".For parses to make sense in a comparative context the elements of the fight have to be controllabe by the player doing the parsing. The only variable on Palace trash is group setup and raid dps. Which is why those variables are also posted along with the parse.All that said imo the only thing I care about is % of raid dps parsed. As a ranger if I parse between 10 and 12% of our raids dps, I feel like I'm doing my job and should be adored by the casual rangers out there with pictures of me in their inn room.</blockquote>Thats what it is all about % of raid dps thats what matters for me.And Gage rofl with the last part of your comment that was funny <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

wickermanuk

06-16-2009, 09:15 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You do realize this will lead to random ppl who get no clue about raiding calling for class nerfs without even knowing anything about the context which led to such numbers ? </blockquote>The only class that this demonstrates may warrent a nerf has both people already saying it needs a nerf and a mechanics developer saying it will be nerfed.Have fun.</blockquote>Have fun with nerfed raid dps. Sure as hell spending 5 minutes more on palace trash will be a huge balance improvement.Wait ... 10 minutes more because chanters will be /afk autofollow</blockquote>Your right, lets leave classes unbalanced just because balancing them would mean we spend 5 more minutes clearing a group of mobs twice a week...</blockquote>After what is it now, 4 years? People still seem to think the way to make this game fun and succesful is to pointlessly try and balance classes.OMG the illy in the WW raid guild in a insane stacked group, with a dirge/troub/inq/wizzy/coercer who had the entire guild waiting between pulls parsed higher than the poor wizzy LOL.Move on seriously, class balance is a fricking myth, there are WAY too many classes in EQ2 and the only thing you end up doing is screwing the players over which in turn leads to yet more people leaving the game.Was EQ1 even remotely balanced, NOPE but it was still awesome fun, may that be a lesson to SOE devs.

wickermanuk

06-16-2009, 09:19 AM

<cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerf Bats armed....Fire at will!!!Glad to see guards finally learned to keep their traps shut.p.s. seen a couple of 70k+ illusionist parses on the 1st ae trap in palace, just saying.</blockquote>If that Illy did 70k on the trap then what the hell did the warlock do? There are so many broken mechanics in the game at the moment, I saw a coercer do 45k on a 3min fight, how's that for a funky parse LOL.

wickermanuk

06-16-2009, 09:24 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's the point of class balance, if not giving fair chances for everyone to see the content ?Please explain...Or what is your definition of class balance, and how does it help the game ?</blockquote>Everyone haas always had a fair chance at seeing all the content, currently all you need to do is roll a chanter or bard and level it up.However, players seeing content has nothing to do with class balance, if it did chanter DPS and utility would both be taing a massive hit to the point where they offer the raid as much as a summoner currently does.</blockquote>LOL wake up, everyone does have a fair chance of seeing the content already.This myth that if your a summoner you dont get to raid is a laughable, if you know your class and your not a complete [Removed for Content] then you can see everything this game has to offer. Way too many pathetic summoners and wizards moan about their lack of raid spots, when the truth is they are simply not good enough.I've seen far too many wizzys with no clue how to play their class, i'd go so far as to say that wizzys are one of the most badly played classes around. But now and again you come across a good wizzy that shows that if you know what your doing then you should have no problems parsing well or raiding.

wickermanuk

06-16-2009, 09:28 AM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do your chanters top the parse on AE heavy encounters, power drain mobs or mobs with insane reactive debuffs (like 90% of TSO raid nameds) ?</blockquote>Chanters do too much DPS for the amount of utility they bring to a grou por raid. Accept that one or the other is going to need to go.</blockquote>Yet the coercer in those parses is just about exactly where you have often said coercers belong (tossing out the conjurors parse you deemed as low). Or did you just mean -illusionists- when you say "chanters". Illusionists also have more utility than coercer and are useful in more group types than coercer. There are also generally 3 illusionists desired on a raid (that whole help more group types thing) to one coercer.I really wish you, and others, would stop stop stop saying "chanter" when you are specifying illusionist.</blockquote>I'd bet good money that a coercer in the kind of stacked group that the illy had would parse as good if not better than the illy. Coercers fly under the radar because the vast majority of them are in MT groups or MA groups without troubs. Throw a coercer in a stacked group, load up with GVB gear and put Upbeat tempo on them and they would do insane dps.IMO coercer have a slightly higher DPS potencial than illys, which is fine by me as coercers have more specialised buffs.

wickermanuk

06-16-2009, 09:33 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except the coercer's best parse was done with: Berserker, Mystic, Templar, Dirge, Swashbuckler When the illy's best was with: Inq, Wiz, Dirge, Troub, Ranger It's pretty obvious which one is more stacked toward mage dps, and that the coercer would probably parse higher in that illy's group. That's why this thread is stupid when it comes to comparing classes dps, a parse without all context information means nothing....</blockquote>BINGO, we have a winner.For a coercer to suddenly claim that they wouldnt parse as high as a illy is ludicrous at best. Coercers have a higher DPS potencial than illys do, even since SOE fixed them, like I said before the only reason people dont cry nerf coercers is that they fly under the radar in the MT/MA group.

Ran

06-16-2009, 10:22 AM

Bards have more buffs than coercer/illy so why should they be in the same dps range?Illy can stack their procs with 2 and 4 set boni of both t8 sets, that's why they parse that high, higher than other T1 dps classes.What dps a class in a group build around them could make is not the question.. what dps a class in their role in a raid can do is.What was done with gu45 is that after years this class had no longer spells which required mana-use by mobs (which was taken out long ago) and that reactives trigger now if the player hits the mob, not if the mob hits the player (what you normally try to avoid). The dmg of spells was tuned down, just saying for the people which only take written arguments.Coercer asked for more utility than illy's or more dps since illy vs. coercer pre gu 45 was around 2k. Coercer were in a 1/3 ration for most raids.Coercer have to put out an amount of dps, otherwise our hatetransfer is useless..Chanter dps in their group should be slightly lower than swash and brig.SoWizzi/Lock/Rängä/Assa = around same dpsNecro/EleBrig/SwashIlly/CoercerDirge/Trubfollowed by the rest...