Taunts

[Quicksilver74]

<p>Taunts as they are now, need to be a serious focus for any future fighter revamp.  They are seriously underpowered, and ONLY usefull for proccing precision of the maestro. </p><p>  I'm not exxagerating when I say, that every time I tank, I literally loose hate when I taunt.   CA's generate SO much more hate than Taunts do, it is ridiculous.  The 2-3K hate from a Taunt is absolutely insignificant compared to the damage you could get from a CA and all the procs that could trigger. </p><p>  I would suggest improving taunts to do around 8 - 10K hate, or more, in order for taunts to be a viable means of holding aggro.  Possibly make them generate even more hate but possibly increase casting speed a little.   Also if taunts were that high, all the gear and things with Base Taunt amount on them might actually mean something. </p>

[Yimway]

<p>I suggest thinking about taunts differently.</p><p>I suggest on cast they apply as a debuff that remains on the mob until terminated. </p><p>That debuff would be hate/time with a power/time cost.  Each fighter should have atleast one ST, Encounter, and AoE version of the spell with the hate amount and power cost set differently based upon the class's encounter focus type.</p><p>Such that, a ST tank can generate soem aggro from taunt in AoE, however it would be very expensive power wise and likely could not be maintained indefinately or used frequently.  In the same way, some tanks might have more of one type than another, or perhaps a ST tank would get DPS added on the tick for ST and no damage on AoE ticks, where an AoE tank would also apply damage on AoE ticks,etc.</p><p>However, in general, we need to back away from hard divisions between fighters based upon encounter types, ultimately this favors one side of the spectrum significantly better than the other and this can by no means be the major delination of fighters.  All fighters should have some means of each aggro type, the disparity of hate via taunt vs hate via dps for each of those types is where we should focus disparity on.</p><p>I think taunts in general need to be looked at more as sustained abilities either as I suggested above, or as hate/time abilities that provide signficantly mroe hate than the current versions.</p><p>I'm not sure making them giant spike taunts is necesarily the right decision for playability, and I'm very against making them rapid-recast like the previous revamp was micro-focused on.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>I do not want to become a taunt bot which is all the proposed revamp would have done.</p><p>But something needs to be with +threat abilities......they currently do not serve their purpose. </p><p>Currently there is absolutely no noticeable difference if I tank never using any ability that has +threat -vs- using them in my cast order.</p><p>The fact that +threat in general is so useless means that there is only one way for tank to improve their hate....thats DPS...often taking priority over everything else that makes a tank.</p><p>The one mechanic they had in the revamp that I think would work is the idea of taunt crit. </p><p>I also think that one point of +threat should be worth more in overall hate than one point of DMG...but its not...in fact one point of DMG in the end is worth alot more since it accomplished multiple purposes.</p><p>Ideally I want to have to balance my gear and stat choices.......instead of what is currently happening where I just slap on whatever gains me the most DPS.  For me and where I am in terms of game progression.....95% of the time DPS takes very high priority over anything else.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>The problem is they have completely ignored "taunt" adders compared to the DPS adders put in game.  They need tools like taunt crit, +base taunt, +double taunt in the game.  And it needs to be given away along with the +dps increasers.  Example, a fighter item right now that has +4 melee crit could have +4 melee crit and +4 taunt crit on it.</p><p>I really like the idea of "double taunt".  Having a high DT% on a 3-4k taunt makes it a 6-8k taunt and than with good taunt crit we are talking 8k-16k probably.</p><p>To me it just doesn't seem like it isn't that complicated.  You take the same principles that are being used to increase DPS exponentially and you add in similar taunt increaser means so they increase exponentially with DPS.</p><p>Than you can have complete itemization where the more offensive tanks have maybe a 70/30 mix of DPS/Taunt increasers on their items while the more defenisive tanks get a mixture of 30/70 mix of DPS/Taunt increasers.  Guards that have taunts on multiple abilities could see large amounts of hate from taunts crit'ing and double taunting.</p>

[Bladespirit]

<p>how about makin taunts behave like dirge debuffs that recycle their effects periodically n last for about min? if with instant recast or short recast timer, they woulda be much effective w/o losin CA cycle?</p>

[Kordran]

<p>I think that simply making them all have a threat-over-time component, instacast with no recovery time and an appropriate recast would resolve the issue. Increase the values somewhat, allow them to crit, and work in the changes that were planned with Aggression (vis a vis resist rates). Basically, make taunting an "active" thing, but not spammy and not so it penalizes our DPS.</p><p>I'm personally not really a fan of the idea of making taunts essentially a toggleable buff with a power drain; that's a little too "set it and forget it" for my tastes. But I agree the "spam those taunts!" approach in the fighter revamp was too much the other direction. There's a happy medium to be found, I think.</p>

[steelbadger]

<p>I want to see a taunt system put in place that rivals the levels of complexity found in the melee or spell systems.  I want to see taunt specific debuffs and buffs and temp buffs and procs and crits.</p><p>I don't really care if I'm not dpsing, I signed up to be a tank not a scout, I play my scout if I want to do that.  I just want to be kept busy with whatever I'm doing.  If threat becomes a viable method of holding aggro then I will start min-maxing my threat generation, until that time I make do with min-maxing my dps generation.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think that simply <strong>making them all have a threat-over-time component, instacast with no recovery time and an appropriate recast would resolve the issue</strong>. Increase the values somewhat, allow them to crit, and work in the changes that were planned with Aggression (vis a vis resist rates). Basically, make taunting an "active" thing, but not spammy and not so it penalizes our DPS.</p><p>I'm personally <strong>not really a fan of the idea of making taunts essentially a toggleable buff with a power drain;</strong> that's a little too "set it and forget it" for my tastes. But I agree the "spam those taunts!" approach in the fighter revamp was too much the other direction. There's a happy medium to be found, I think.</p></blockquote><p>I don't actually see much difference between the two.</p><p>You choose which targets/targets you apply to, you have a recast timer when you cancel it, and it has a re-occuring power cost.  Toggleable makes them a decision point on when to use them, cause used at the wrong times presents you with recast timers before they can be re-applied.</p><p>Either way, they become largely 'set and forget' rather you set it for your active target, or if you click it every 30-60 seconds, its still a click and forget cast and doesn't remain part of your cognitive focus when playing.</p><p>Each has its bonuses and penalties, but in the end I advocate a change that allows players to remain cognitively focused on the same ellements they've been trained to focus on thus far.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I want to see a taunt system put in place that rivals the levels of complexity found in the melee or spell systems.  I want to see taunt specific debuffs and buffs and temp buffs and procs and crits.</p><p>I don't really care if I'm not dpsing, I signed up to be a tank not a scout, I play my scout if I want to do that.  I just want to be kept busy with whatever I'm doing.  If threat becomes a viable method of holding aggro then I will start min-maxing my threat generation, until that time I make do with min-maxing my dps generation.</p></blockquote><p>I think you will find not all 6 fighters signed up to be a guardian, so I wouldn't expect this to be a plausible sollution.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Taunts are largely ineffective right now.</p><p>Really though tanking should be about holding aggro thru any means necessary. As a tank if you do 0 damage output and you're holding aggro thru taunts, technically you're doing your job. But the truly optimal tank will hold aggro with the least amount of taunt necessary while putting out as much DPS as possible.</p><p>I think the class that has the hardest time putting out raw hate is the Berserker; they're completely reliant on damage output.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Taunts are largely ineffective right now.</p><p>Really though tanking should be about holding aggro thru any means necessary. As a tank if you do 0 damage output and you're holding aggro thru taunts, technically you're doing your job. But the truly optimal tank will hold aggro with the least amount of taunt necessary while putting out as much DPS as possible.</p><p>I think the class that has the hardest time putting out raw hate is the Berserker; they're completely reliant on damage output.</p></blockquote><p>LOL WUT?</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I want to see a taunt system put in place that rivals the levels of complexity found in the melee or spell systems.  I want to see taunt specific debuffs and buffs and temp buffs and procs and crits.</p><p>I don't really care if I'm not dpsing, I signed up to be a tank not a scout, I play my scout if I want to do that.  I just want to be kept busy with whatever I'm doing.  If <strong>threat becomes a viable method of holding aggro</strong> then I will start min-maxing my threat generation, until that time I make do with min-maxing my dps generation.</p></blockquote><p>I think you will find not all 6 fighters signed up to be a guardian, so I wouldn't expect this to be a plausible sollution.</p></blockquote><p>Eh...  all I want to see is threat as a viable method of holding aggro.  Did I say primary method?  No.  Did I say Only method?  No.</p><p>EDIT:  I'm fully aware that all the tanking classes have different ideas of what they should be, but really the only way I can see to differentiate tanking classes is by varying the method of aggro generation from taunts to taunts/dps to dps as we move through the classes.  We all know that trying to designate tanks as aoe or st is never going to work particularly well.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>The more I think about it, the harder it is for me to see a way to balance hate. I kind of feel that no fighter should be able to hold aggro with comparatively geared/buffed dps going balls out all the time without using some kind of snaps. Pure fighter dps and taunts should not be sufficient to hold hate from an assassin dumping 60k dps on a mob for 5 seconds. Which can already be done by any fighter in dstance with dirge, coercer + transfer.</p><p>The only real problem is when you don't have support classes, and how do you make it possible to hold aggro fairly reliably with no support classes, and not completely trivial when you do have support. How do you make a monk able to hold a pile of mobs off a warlock with no support? Should that even be possible to do with no support? I mean, some fighters have easy mode aggro whether it's one mob or one hundred mobs, other fighters struggle to hold a single encounter of three mobs without some serious support and burning single target snaps on individual mobs.</p><p>IDK... I don't expect to have control of every mob in every encounter all the time no matter what. If you boosted my threat to be able to hold aggro reliably with no dirge or something, when I did have the holy trinity of dirge, coercer, & transfer I could probably hold all mobs all the time. One of the major problems I think is the single target tanks are pretty much shafted. They have absolutly nothing to make up for their poor aoe threat control, while zerkers sks and pallys give up nothing to have superb aoe threat control.</p>

[Garnaf]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The more I think about it, the harder it is for me to see a way to balance hate. I kind of feel that no fighter should be able to hold aggro with comparatively geared/buffed dps going balls out all the time without using some kind of snaps. Pure fighter dps and taunts should not be sufficient to hold hate from an assassin dumping 60k dps on a mob for 5 seconds. Which can already be done by any fighter in dstance with dirge, coercer + transfer.</p><p>The only real problem is when you don't have support classes, and how do you make it possible to hold aggro fairly reliably with no support classes, and not completely trivial when you do have support. How do you make a monk able to hold a pile of mobs off a warlock with no support? Should that even be possible to do with no support? I mean, some fighters have easy mode aggro whether it's one mob or one hundred mobs, other fighters struggle to hold a single encounter of three mobs without some serious support and burning single target snaps on individual mobs.</p><p>IDK... I don't expect to have control of every mob in every encounter all the time no matter what. If you boosted my threat to be able to hold aggro reliably with no dirge or something, when I did have the holy trinity of dirge, coercer, & transfer I could probably hold all mobs all the time. One of the major problems I think is the single target tanks are pretty much shafted. They have absolutly nothing to make up for their poor aoe threat control, while zerkers sks and pallys give up nothing to have superb aoe threat control.</p></blockquote><p>EXACTLY!  That the problem with fighter rebalances, and with most people's perception of tanking.  Agro Control should NEVER be the sole job of the tank in question.  The DPS should have to monitor their hategain as well (which the threat meter allows now) and use detaunts intelligently.  That's not to say that the tank can suck and still hold agro like in EQ1 (Chainstuns, Chainterrors for Paladins and SKs for example), Tanks should be responcible for the MAJORITY fo agro control, but at least some part of the job should fall on the DPS as well.</p><p>And your point about the poor AE control of Single Target Tanks is a fair point (well, other than the fact that, supposedly, Paladins are a 'single' tank as well).  Afterall, AE agro tools still work just as well on single mobs.  but the reverse is certainly not true.</p><p>For example:  I see an encounter of 5 mobs coming.  As a Paladin I'd start with a big AE (probably Smite Evil), and transition slowly down the list.  If needed pop Holy Ground and Consecration.  As a Shadowknight I'd just Death March and hammer the big AEs (heck, just Death March is enough in some cases).  As a Berserker I'd probably Turmoil / Open Wounds (I admit to having never played a zerk past level 40 or so, this may be a poor choice but it seems the best 'heavy ae' choice).  As a Guardian I'd drop to my knees and pray to the gods...Against 1 mob, almost all the same options still work almost as well for holding agro (the zerker one being a notable exception, Open Wounds isn't a huge single target help).</p>

[Aull]

<p>Well I do agree that currently taunts suck and if a fighter uses a taunt they will basically loose hate and dps. Fighter revamp did have a few things going in the right direction and that was stronger taunts and taunt crits. Both should be placed in game currently.</p><p>Needing to depend on hate transfer classes for each group setting gets old. Almost every instance group anymore is configured around a raid type of atmosphere that is leaving other classes standing around waiting for the next pickup because they don't have hate transfer and such.</p><p>However becoming taunt bots would become old very fast and many tanks would eventually drift toward a more exciting game elsewhere.</p><p>I am all for having better hate generation when my dps just cannot compete with the current group set up. Heck rescue sucks anymore in just making the mob face the tank for 1 sec and immediately back on the highest dps like nothing ever happened.</p><p>Hate generation capping at 100 points is a joke as well. Honestly a tank can beat on a mob for 2 mins and be at 100 the whole time and then an assassin can execute at 2mins 1sec and the tank now has 87 points where the assassin has 100! Hate should be able to build up more than just 100 points on the meter.</p><p>Another thing that needs to be done is making de-taunt hotbar keys more attractive/noticable for the toons who have them. That way they can learn to use them! </p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well I do agree that currently taunts suck and if a fighter uses a taunt they will basically loose hate and dps. Fighter revamp did have a few things going in the right direction and that was stronger taunts and taunt crits. Both should be placed in game currently.</p><p>Needing to depend on hate transfer classes for each group setting gets old. Almost every instance group anymore is configured around a raid type of atmosphere that is leaving other classes standing around waiting for the next pickup because they don't have hate transfer and such.</p><p>However becoming taunt bots would become old very fast and many tanks would eventually drift toward a more exciting game elsewhere.</p><p>I am all for having better hate generation when my dps just cannot compete with the current group set up. Heck rescue sucks anymore in just making the mob face the tank for 1 sec and immediately back on the highest dps like nothing ever happened.</p><p>Hate generation capping at 100 points is a joke as well. Honestly a tank can beat on a mob for 2 mins and be at 100 the whole time and then an assassin can execute at 2mins 1sec and the tank now has 87 points where the assassin has 100! Hate should be able to build up more than just 100 points on the meter.</p><p>Another thing that needs to be done is making de-taunt hotbar keys more attractive/noticable for the toons who have them. That way they can learn to use them! </p></blockquote><p>That is not the way the hate meter works, at least now how I understand it.  The meter is a % thing.  So at 100 you have the mobs attention.  The next person on the list is the % they are to getting the mob.  At the start of a fight you can be at 100 and others can be in the 80's.  If you pop a Death March type ability those people below you get lower values on the hate meter.  The lower their number the larger the gap is to them taking agro.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Interesting.</p>

[Aull]

<p>In all reality which would get the mobs attention better yelling at it or yelling and inflicting damage at the same time?</p><p>Maybe taunts should have some type of damage incorporated in them for the fighters as well. Nothing huge but a least something that keeps fighters from looking like a yelling baby that is not a threat other than disturbing the peace.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In all reality which would get the mobs attention better yelling at it or yelling and inflicting damage at the same time?</p><p>Maybe taunts should have some type of damage incorporated in them for the fighters as well. Nothing huge but a least something that keeps fighters from looking like a yelling baby that is not a threat other than disturbing the peace.</p></blockquote><p>Or, maybe taunts should take on a secondary role on CAs/Spells period.  I will use SK taunts as an example.  Instead of the SK AE taunt being a taunt first, and a debuff second...maybe its primary function should be a debuff and increased accordingly for that and than the secondary nature of the ability would be extra hate gained.</p><p>In other words, why not add small hate values in addition to all the other abilities/spells.  That CA that does 2k damage, why not put an additional hate value on it of 800-1k.  This would curb the idea of the fighter revamp where basically all you had to do was put your taunts in a macro and spam it to keep agro.  Instead you are working for DPS and being a fighter you are getting nice kick backs on hate.</p><p>Than instead of adding in "taunt crit" and "taunt mod" you could make the abilities behave like lifetaps.  Where as the healing portion of the lifetap ability is based off of spell damage and spell crit %, you could make the taunt part of abilities based on "melee crit" or "spell crit".  So if the ability crits the taunt portion crits as well.  Saves itemization issues and would be the filler for increasing hate exponentially to keep up with the exponential increase of DPS.</p>

[Megavolt]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In all reality which would get the mobs attention better yelling at it or yelling and inflicting damage at the same time?</p><p>Maybe taunts should have some type of damage incorporated in them for the fighters as well. Nothing huge but a least something that keeps fighters from looking like a yelling baby that is not a threat other than disturbing the peace.</p></blockquote><p>Or, maybe taunts should take on a secondary role on CAs/Spells period.  I will use SK taunts as an example.  Instead of the SK AE taunt being a taunt first, and a debuff second...maybe its primary function should be a debuff and increased accordingly for that and than the secondary nature of the ability would be extra hate gained.</p><p>In other words, why not add small hate values in addition to all the other abilities/spells.  That CA that does 2k damage, why not put an additional hate value on it of 800-1k.  This would curb the idea of the fighter revamp where basically all you had to do was put your taunts in a macro and spam it to keep agro.  Instead you are working for DPS and being a fighter you are getting nice kick backs on hate.</p><p>Than instead of adding in "taunt crit" and "taunt mod" you could make the abilities behave like lifetaps.  Where as the healing portion of the lifetap ability is based off of spell damage and spell crit %, you could make the taunt part of abilities based on "melee crit" or "spell crit".  So if the ability crits the taunt portion crits as well.  Saves itemization issues and would be the filler for increasing hate exponentially to keep up with the exponential increase of DPS.</p></blockquote><p>Amen brother!!</p><p>Changing all our 'pure taunts' into emergency recaptures with longer recast times and adding taunt values to the rest of our offensive abilities would to me seem like the way to go. Basically balancing out scout damage-fighter damage= what the taunt value applied to each ca or spell should be. Having an additional stance (not one packed into the stances we have now but a completely different set of stances) to turn on the pure hate bonuses or change them to where that taunt value is split between extra damage and  a deagro would make it viable to bring extra fighters along to dps while still not reaching quite the dps that a pure dps class would bring. This would allow to tank in "agro mode" and offensive for those times when we don't have to worry about our incoming damage as much and still be able to do decent dps, while increasing our dps in "deagro mode" but make us completely useless at holding agro while doing this.  Change rescue from a taunt number to a positional that increases with each spell level (master 1 rescue doing a full 23 positions) and have the new modes be insta cast so when the MT goes down the OT rescues and quickly changes stances to keep agro.</p><p>Not so much spam taunt and more twitch taunt</p>

[Landiin]

<p>The thing is; If you increase our hate then you have to decrease hate transfer else when you do have a hate transfer class then hate become trivial.</p><p>All I know is something has to be done and some class is gonna get [Removed for Content] off about it. I just hope it isn't my class lol.</p>

[Aule]

If you have a hate booster and a hate transfer in your group then great, you don't need to use your taunts in all likelihood. That being said though, if you don't have one or both of those in your group, then using taunts needs to be sufficient to be able to maintain aggro. I'm personally a fan of adding more interesting effects to taunts, rather than just boosting the values. Various things come to mind such as: Enc taunt for X amount of threat, range 15m + dot for 1/5 X amount every 2s for 10s + if distance is greater than 3m drag all affected mobs 5m closer to you, stopping at 3m. Drag component is towards a location 1m in front of the direction you're facing. Single target taunt, target of target, if not fighter, is decreased 2 hate positions. Target is then taunted for X amount of threat. PBAE taunt, actually an effect Effect centered on the tank, 15m radius If class is scout, -5k threat If class is priest, -1 threat position and -5k taunt If class is mage, -2 threat positions and -10k taunt If class is fighter, +1 threat position and +5k taunt ...Net effect would be a reorganization of most of the mobs in the close are to mostly have the hatelist look like fighter > scout > priest > mage PBAE taunt effect that moves with caster 20m radius Counteract haste effects on caster by 100-150% Increases casting time of spells by 50% and combat arts by 100% Duration 15s, instantly and every second, +1 threat position and +2k threat to all engaged targets within range Single target, 15m range Pulls target 10m towards location 1m in front of caster facing. Roots target for 3s (unbreakable) 75% move rate snare for 3s once root terminates (unbreakable) Large amount of threat Enc taunt Decent threat range Is affected by melee crit and melee double attack Taunt buff, 10s duration, 60s reuse Single taunts become encounter Encounter taunts become pbae PBAE taunts have range increased by 5m Defensive stance buff All combat arts add additional amount of threat equal to 10% of the damage dealt.

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The thing is; If you increase our hate then you have to decrease hate transfer else when you do have a hate transfer class then hate become trivial.</p><p>All I know is something has to be done and some class is gonna get [Removed for Content] off about it. I just hope it isn't my class lol.</p></blockquote><p>Hate is already trivial, particularly now with the threat meter. That's why they've added so much crap to mobs like memwipes, blurs, anonymity and switches just to make it more challenging in an artificial way.</p>

[thial]

<p>A lot of good responses but I have to disagree with anything that involves re inventing the wheel. Keep it simple, boost the other 5 tanks taunts up to where Sk taunts are maybe boost them a little higher but not to much we still want transfers to be viable. Increase the hate gain cap to 75%(arguable). Improve ho's so doing the three step fight HO increases the base taunt amount for a short duration.  Add in taunt crit, taunt adornments, and add taunt affects to current gear sets bring back the changes to aggression that where in test. DO NOT consolidate buffs. DO NOT give us 13k taunts DO NOT mess with stances. Remember the K.I.S.S rule.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Remember the K.I.S.S rule.</p></blockquote><p>Sadly in the 10+ years I have played SOE MMOS they have yet to follow that rule.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:-</cite></p><blockquote>Hate is already trivial, particularly now with the threat meter. That's why they've added so much crap to mobs like memwipes, blurs, anonymity and switches just to make it more challenging in an artificial way.</blockquote><p>LOL what? Hate is no where near trivial for warriors! We are not talking raid setup with the group is stacked for hate. /boggle</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:-</cite></p><blockquote>Hate is already trivial, particularly now with the threat meter. That's why they've added so much crap to mobs like memwipes, blurs, anonymity and switches just to make it more challenging in an artificial way.</blockquote><p>LOL what? Hate is no where near trivial for warriors! We are not talking raid setup with the group is stacked for hate. /boggle</p></blockquote><p>So.. taunts should be boosted to help PUG tanks with weaksauce heroic content? That's the gist of this?</p><p>ROFL.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:-</cite></p><blockquote>Hate is already trivial, particularly now with the threat meter. That's why they've added so much crap to mobs like memwipes, blurs, anonymity and switches just to make it more challenging in an artificial way.</blockquote><p>LOL what? Hate is no where near trivial for warriors! We are not talking raid setup with the group is stacked for hate. /boggle</p></blockquote><p>So.. taunts should be boosted to help PUG tanks with weaksauce heroic content? That's the gist of this?</p><p>ROFL.</p></blockquote><p>If you wanna call it weaksauce (whats that Jr High?) then what ever. There isn't a warrior out there that can hold agro off a equally geared DPS with out hate transfer.. NONE ZERO, if they can then they need to replace the DPS because the can't play their class.</p><p>I am also guessing you have reading comprehension issues? Because if you even read my post I quoted you from you would know that isn't what I said anyway. So until you have taken a couple of reading comprehension classes please refrain from posting plz, thx..</p>

[peepshow]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:-</cite></p><blockquote>Hate is already trivial, particularly now with the threat meter. That's why they've added so much crap to mobs like memwipes, blurs, anonymity and switches just to make it more challenging in an artificial way.</blockquote><p>LOL what? Hate is no where near trivial for warriors! We are not talking raid setup with the group is stacked for hate. /boggle</p></blockquote><p>So.. taunts should be boosted to help PUG tanks with weaksauce heroic content? That's the gist of this?</p><p>ROFL.</p></blockquote><p>If you wanna call it weaksauce (whats that Jr High?) then what ever. There isn't a warrior out there that can hold agro off a equally geared DPS with out hate transfer.. NONE ZERO, if they can then they need to replace the DPS because the can't play their class.</p><p>I am also guessing you have reading comprehension issues? Because if you even read my post I quoted you from you would know that isn't what I said anyway. So until you have taken a couple of reading comprehension classes please refrain from posting plz, thx..</p></blockquote><p>Not true..</p><p>Oon solo encounters in heroic instances I can hold aggro of the biggest aggrowhore wizard there is.. But when it comes to multi encounters, I'll have some problems with it, its still doable, but with problems.</p><p>When you have lets say 3 mobs all solo, that's where you fail, nothing can hold that, most not even WITH transfer.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Scipius@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:-</cite></p><blockquote>Hate is already trivial, particularly now with the threat meter. That's why they've added so much crap to mobs like memwipes, blurs, anonymity and switches just to make it more challenging in an artificial way.</blockquote><p>LOL what? Hate is no where near trivial for warriors! We are not talking raid setup with the group is stacked for hate. /boggle</p></blockquote><p>So.. taunts should be boosted to help PUG tanks with weaksauce heroic content? That's the gist of this?</p><p>ROFL.</p></blockquote><p>If you wanna call it weaksauce (whats that Jr High?) then what ever. There isn't a warrior out there that can hold agro off a equally geared DPS with out hate transfer.. NONE ZERO, if they can then they need to replace the DPS because the can't play their class.</p><p>I am also guessing you have reading comprehension issues? Because if you even read my post I quoted you from you would know that isn't what I said anyway. So until you have taken a couple of reading comprehension classes please refrain from posting plz, thx..</p></blockquote><p>Not true..</p><p>Oon solo encounters in heroic instances I can hold aggro of the biggest aggrowhore wizard there is.. But when it comes to multi encounters, I'll have some problems with it, its still doable, but with problems.</p><p>When you have lets say 3 mobs all solo, that's where you fail, nothing can hold that, most not even WITH transfer.</p></blockquote><p>I call BS! I'll give you holding agro off the wizard with Mod on them. (But I still bet he can pull agro off you at will) But you are not going to hold agro off the lock, brig are any high parsing class that don't have some sort of constant dehate spell as well as a crusader can. If you are a warrior there simple no way you can produce enough DPS to generate the hate needed unless said class are NOT producing the DPS a good player can produce with them.</p>

[Elanjar]

<p>maybe taunts should apply to the mobs as a buff that</p><p>A) increases the hate gain of the caster on said target by XX% for the duration of the buff</p><p>B) applys XXX hate every XX seconds</p><p>C) applys XXXX hate instantly</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>Dunno why we have to rewrite the book here.  Add damage to taunts and wow look their fixed.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>The problem is the developer responsible for alot of the mechanic/gear/content progression in the last few expansions did not understand hate at all other than dps makes hate, and if you're not a tank type, having hate = bad.  Thats an overexageration, but the idea is what matters.  Hate in itself has many many levels and methods of being generated and it's more than likely that no one person understands it completely through and through.  The key to making better itemization and better progression of all abilities would be to have specialized developers that focus on that one particular mechanic they are well versed in.  Don't know how they do it now, but seeing whats happening to the classes leads me to believe that it's not being divided based on in depth expertise of that one particular mechanic.</p>

[Gilasil]

<p>There's a wizard and warlock I group with regularly who can and often do rip aggro (I've got everything mastered, 200AAs etc etc.) so yes I agree we need something.  When I'm tanking for them I'm invariably cycling through my snap aggro abilitie</p><p>I do NOT like the idea of attaching a taunt to many damaging abilities.  Doing that means you can't use those ailities when you're not the main tank.  I've got a couple TOS abilities now which are consigned to use only when I"m soloing or tanking and I'd hate to see any more in that category.   So primary taunts should not have major damage components -- they should just be taunts.  Keep the high damage abilities seperate (except for the innate taunt of doing high damage of course).</p><p>I like the idea of more variety of taunts with additional effects/crits etc., but again, I don't want to take away from straight DPS to get them.  Even now that my bruiser is finally geared well enough to tank, I probably spend over half my time in a DPS role (mainly in raids).  For that role I need to scrape up every last bit of DPS and anything which would hurt it would not go down well.  At the other end of the spectrum, sometimes I duo with a healer.  That means that my job is both tanking AND dps.  I still need that dps.</p><p>Given that, all sorts of interesting things could be done with taunts.  Taunt over time sounds interesting.   Also, an ability similar to the bruiser drag which -- when it chooses to work -- holds the mob's attention for some period of time no matter what.  If the tank and the wizard can coordinate well, the tank could grab it with that ability and the wizard could nuke away until the ability expires (obviously the duration has to be short as it is with drag).  I'd prefer things which required active participation by the player -- not some passive stat such as crit which depends solely on getting good gear.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem is the developer responsible for alot of the mechanic/gear/content progression in the last few expansions did not understand hate at all other than dps makes hate, and if you're not a tank type, having hate = bad.  Thats an overexageration, but the idea is what matters.  Hate in itself has many many levels and methods of being generated and it's more than likely that no one person understands it completely through and through.  The key to making better itemization and better progression of all abilities would be to have specialized developers that focus on that one particular mechanic they are well versed in.  Don't know how they do it now, but seeing whats happening to the classes leads me to believe that it's not being divided based on in depth expertise of that one particular mechanic.</p></blockquote><p>Yep. But the SoE hierarchy seems to be promote from within, and usually after folks are grounded in the culture that has/is causing the problems we see -- especially fixing things that's not broke.</p><p>When they went wild with the dps = hate changes, they forgot that tanks are suppose to hold aggro (not dps classes basically tanking the zones). They forgot about all the dps types hiding their aggro meter as they don't want to be reminded of stealing it (clutter). They forgot that kids want just the highest parser to brag about (heck, even healers are bragging about their dps). So the tank now also wants to join the dps crowd (because the melee tanks can!!), <strong><em>so much so, if he's dpsing he's not taunting</em></strong>, so just add taunts to CAs, instead.</p><p>This is how the system breaks. Folks want to do everything everyone is doing, so they don't feel left out of the "fun". But if you mention that everyone should then have equal abilities to do everything, they go nuts about class specific things.</p><p>Can't win when folks just want something from everything class, but not the penalities. It'll remain broken with that mindset. Add that with SoE always tweaking things until they're totally broke, we have what we have today...a mess.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yep. But the SoE hierarchy seems to be promote from within, and usually after folks are grounded in the culture that has/is causing the problems we see -- especially fixing things that's not broke.</p><p>When they went wild with the dps = hate changes, they forgot that tanks are suppose to hold aggro (not dps classes basically tanking the zones). They forgot about all the dps types hiding their aggro meter as they don't want to be reminded of stealing it (clutter). They forgot that kids want just the highest parser to brag about (heck, even healers are bragging about their dps). So the tank now also wants to join the dps crowd (because the melee tanks can!!), <strong><em>so much so, if he's dpsing he's not taunting</em></strong>, so just add taunts to CAs, instead.</p><p>This is how the system breaks. Folks want to do everything everyone is doing, so they don't feel left out of the "fun". But if you mention that everyone should then have equal abilities to do everything, they go nuts about class specific things.</p><p>Can't win when folks just want something from everything class, but not the penalities. It'll remain broken with that mindset. Add that with SoE always tweaking things until they're totally broke, we have what we have today...a mess.</p></blockquote><p>haha That be the true!</p><p>Hey wait, This isn't reality I don't want no stinking penalties..</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>haha That be the true!</p><p>Hey wait, This isn't reality I don't want no stinking penalties..</p></blockquote><p><em>As the raiders said in world chat: "no pain, no gain".</em></p>

[Aule]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> <strong><em>so much so, if he's dpsing he's not taunting</em></strong></p></blockquote><p>Under the current system, pressing your taunt button is a reduction in aggro if you could be doing <strong><em>anything else at all</em><span style="font-weight: normal;">.  They are </span><em>only</em><span style="font-weight: normal;"> worth pressing if precision of the maestro, peace of mind, or velium gift are up, since taunts are spells and will fire those proc's.</span></strong></p>

[Maamadex]

<p>I never wanted to "join the dps crowd". Its how the game works. If you hold aggro through your dps guess what, you learn to dps or you are an idiot. I use my group taunt because of the debuff portion, thats about it.</p>

[sylusmoonsnake]

<p>Ok, with everything I have read on this subject this is what I have so far. </p><p>Guardian=Single target tank</p><p>Pali=Single target tank(not sure how they get that, but ok)</p><p>Sk=Multi target tank</p><p>Zerk=Multi target tank</p><p>Playing both an SK and a Guard I can say, what a freaking difference.  Like said earlier the SK can use all of his abilities to grab a single target just as well, but it doesn't work the other way.  But more importantly the SK doesn't need the dirge or Coercer like the Guard has to have to be able to hold agro.  Taunts, yeah they suck, but I agree I don't want to add dps to all taunts, or taunts to all dps, and I really hate the idea of being a taunt bot. </p><p>I think adding in a hate conversion ratio to migation/avoidance would work.  i.e. you mitigate 6k damage which is converted to hate. Have it as buff increase ratio, but leave it as static mechanic in game, that way if an assassin pulls agro and then avoids or mitigates damage it would still be fight to get off, not giving tanks free ride, but still offerring more ability to do their jobs with out having to jump up the dps chart to do it.  The way I see it as a Guardian my job is to stand in front of the mob/mobs and be the wall, take the damage and laugh in their face, not be a combine they run into doing massive dps.  I should be able to keep the mobs attention on me so that the rest of the raid/group can burn them down. </p><p>When I play my SK, its simple run in drop a couple aoe's, throw up death march and watch.  Doing a shard run on SK such as DF, simple one healer and the rest dps, doesn't really matter as long as I have a good healer.  On my Guard, completely different story, sure he has almost 2k more health, better avoidance, better mitigation, but I can't hold agro to save the rest of the groups life.  The other night I literally burned through all taunts, rescue, reinforcement, recapture, single taunt, encounter on final boss after a Illy pulled a massive crit and still didn't pull aggro off.  That is a serious issue, the taunts literally did nothing but waste time.  Granted the Illy was t2, myth, almost completely fabled but, when reinforcement goes off, rescue with +3 hate positions and the mob turns looks at you for second, then immediately back to dps, yeah something is wrong.</p><p>Possible solutions to look at:</p><p>Hate conversion with Mitigation/Avoidance buff with static conversion ration for all classes. (Normal conversion 1hate/1.5 mit/avoid, buff increase ratio to 1.5hate/1 mit or similar)  This would make all tanks able to keep aggro on somewhat even plain, I don't rely on my mit and avoid on my sk like I do on my guard because the mobs never up long enough to put out the dps that would require me to have more.  Bruisers and Monks would actually become decent avoidence tanks able to generate massive amounts of hate with avoidence, maybe add a proc to there buff that wards/heals for every hate generated adding to their lack of surviability in raid scenario.</p><p>The other solutions are all through out this thread, I really don't want to play a tank thats required to dps to keep aggro, though thats what its is now.  I just want some feedback on this issue, its been here long enough, what is happening to fix it?</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Paladins aren't single target tanks, thats just some nonsense left over from the tank revamp that never went through. You can't have a million aes and be strictly single target. We are a bit more defensive than the other mult-target tanks perhaps but we ain't single target like Guards.</p>

[sylusmoonsnake]

<p>Yeah thats why I had the note there.  It is nonsense I agree.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Make a MT toggleable buff that decreases your dps a little bit, but adds taunts to your damage abilities or increases your taunts by a noticeable amount.  That way you can toggle it depending on if you want to be the primary hate target or not.  IE most paladins run in defensive because our offensive provides little to nothing that is not already capped out (considering you're in a higher end raid) but the defensive stance does provide that extra mitigation versus a slight bonus in offensive skills (which are already about 490 before hand anyway...).</p><p>I'm not saying tack that onto the D stance, because being in defensive does not mean you are nessecarily tanking.  There are situations where it comes up where you will need different orientations to handle different mobs in different manners.  Also, if you have a defensively set up raid, you probably wont need to be in defensive, but would rather need the dps from offensive.  Why should you be punished for trying to work with your setup?  By making it a choice when you want to have higher taunts at the sacrifice of dps, you give a choice that allows both playstyles to be viable for when they are nessecary.</p>