Another guardian gives up... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

delbranson

05-30-2009, 06:37 PM

Hello all. I don't post much here, normally reserving my interaction for while I'm in the game. I've been playing since soon after launch. I've played many classes to endgame (troubador, conjuror, bruiser and guardian), and I've enjoyed the full array of things you can do here, solo, grouping, pvp, crafting and raiding. The most fun I've ever had in the game in the past was tanking as a guardian, pre-TSO, but I've persisted through tough times on other classes before.Since TSO, things have steadily gone downhill. Our dps and threat generation is crippled compared to other tank classes. Our strongsuit of survivability is no longer existent compared to other tanks. Bloodletter is the best defensive tool among the tanks now. Slightly higher mitigation means nothing with diminishing returns, our death save is useless, offensive debuffs are underpowered. We still have stoneskins, and I keep a bag full of tower shields to keep that going, but a couple hits of tower shield eating stoneskins does not a class make. Holding aggro with a shield in the first place is near impossible with a guardian, so you must dualwield if you want to hold on to anything against well-played dps classes. Our mythical is ridiculously underpowered. When I earned mine, I received tells from 10 different strangers, hehe, mocking me for how crappy the guardian mythical was.I parse usually between 2-4k with a shield, 3-6k dualwielding, and even with coercer/dirge buffs both and a threat transfer, I can not hold aggro against many classes without using every emergency ability. This would be fine if I could use them every fight, but with timers, its only once every two or three fights that I have any hope of holding aggro. Miss one autoattack, lose aggro. Sneeze, lose aggro. I can't even lift my hands from the keyboard to scratch my nose without losing aggro. Meanwhile our shadowknight can actually leave the computer to start dinner and not lose aggro.All of my friends have pretty well moved on to new characters, most of them playing shadowknights now. I thought if I just kept logging in, things might change. I held out a lot of hope for a fighter revamp, something promised to us since TSO Beta. Most nights I'm not needed at all, and everyone comments that they have to hold back with me tanking. I've had three PUG's in the past month and a half, and all three of them kicked me in the first 10 minutes before we even really get started so they can bring a shadowknight in my place.The game I enjoyed is gone, the class I love is broken, and I just don't have it in me to start all over again. I will probably log in now and then to see if things are different or to say hello to friends... but, with things as they are now, I really don't expect to renew my subscription.Best of luck to everyone who is sticking with it.

RafaelSmith

05-30-2009, 08:28 PM

<cite>delbranson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hello all. I don't post much here, normally reserving my interaction for while I'm in the game. I've been playing since soon after launch. I've played many classes to endgame (troubador, conjuror, bruiser and guardian), and I've enjoyed the full array of things you can do here, solo, grouping, pvp, crafting and raiding. The most fun I've ever had in the game in the past was tanking as a guardian, pre-TSO, but I've persisted through tough times on other classes before.Since TSO, things have steadily gone downhill. Our dps and threat generation is crippled compared to other tank classes. Our strongsuit of survivability is no longer existent compared to other tanks. Bloodletter is the best defensive tool among the tanks now. Slightly higher mitigation means nothing with diminishing returns, our death save is useless, offensive debuffs are underpowered. We still have stoneskins, and I keep a bag full of tower shields to keep that going, but a couple hits of tower shield eating stoneskins does not a class make. Holding aggro with a shield in the first place is near impossible with a guardian, so you must dualwield if you want to hold on to anything against well-played dps classes. Our mythical is ridiculously underpowered. When I earned mine, I received tells from 10 different strangers, hehe, mocking me for how crappy the guardian mythical was.I parse usually between 2-4k with a shield, 3-6k dualwielding, and even with coercer/dirge buffs both and a threat transfer, I can not hold aggro against many classes without using every emergency ability. This would be fine if I could use them every fight, but with timers, its only once every two or three fights that I have any hope of holding aggro. Miss one autoattack, lose aggro. Sneeze, lose aggro. I can't even lift my hands from the keyboard to scratch my nose without losing aggro. Meanwhile our shadowknight can actually leave the computer to start dinner and not lose aggro.All of my friends have pretty well moved on to new characters, most of them playing shadowknights now. I thought if I just kept logging in, things might change. I held out a lot of hope for a fighter revamp, something promised to us since TSO Beta. Most nights I'm not needed at all, and everyone comments that they have to hold back with me tanking. I've had three PUG's in the past month and a half, and all three of them kicked me in the first 10 minutes before we even really get started so they can bring a shadowknight in my place.The game I enjoyed is gone, the class I love is broken, and I just don't have it in me to start all over again. I will probably log in now and then to see if things are different or to say hello to friends... but, with things as they are now, I really don't expect to renew my subscription.Best of luck to everyone who is sticking with it.</blockquote>Pretty much how find myself feeling as of late.Game just isnt fun anymore. I find myself just hiding out mentoring alts and such because I know that if guild groups ask me to MT they are simply being charitable or desperate. There is nothing that I bring to the table that another tank doesnt also bring in addition to the other things he brings and does it all better.Frustrations are further compounded by the fact that my guild is not really a raiding guild so the bulk of what we do is heroic content. Serves me right i guess for picking the absolute worse class for heroic stuff.

ThomasCH

05-31-2009, 12:46 PM

I have only played the Guardian class, so I cannot speak for the other tank classes.I want to say that I fully agree with whats been said. Holding aggro is absolutely horrible and very hard to do. I can fully understand and agree to having the mob(s) peeled off me because of a nicely build DPS toon. But when its pretty much every class who does it, whether its [Removed for Content] gear or not they have equipped. It just isnt fun.I like to tank, but the aggro issues takes a lot of fun away from it.Are there any changes to this in the work by chance? would anyone know?I would really appreciate it, if so.

Rahatmattata

05-31-2009, 02:02 PM

<cite>ThomasCH wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are there any changes to this in the work by chance?Nope. Guardians were nerfed as "stage 1" of the fighter revamp and "stage 2" never came. Thanks SOE.<div><img src="../images/icons/soe.gif" border="0" /> <a href="../user/profile.m?user_id=242118">Aeralik</a></div> Mechanics Guy <img src="../images/avatar/EQ2/base/assassin.gif" border="0" /> Joined: Feb 9, 2006 Messages: 885 Offline The focus of part 2 is looking at the different ways players gain ( or lose ) hate and putting more emphasis on player responsibility. You will likely see the numbers scale up on taunts a lot and hopefully fighters will start to look more at their threat per second while tanking and less so on the raw dps output we see now.He apparently think guardians are fine and fighter balance is just hunky-dory, since no adjustments have been made.<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>A post was made about guardian agro on beta, and below is the response given.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighter changes are a 2 step process. The first part is to get most of the achievement and skill changes out of the way which is the major part to most classes. Part 2 looks at the aggro management of the classes and starts the shirgt to a more threat oriented viewpoint and more emphasis on the tank themselves holding aggro rather than through other means. This is probably the more difficult part because hate transfers, hate gain, hate multipliers, etc all need to be looked at and adjusted appropriately. This part will happen once the expansion ships and once we have more to say about it a post will be made.</blockquote>So, basically our hate is not on par with other plate tanks and we need to suck it up till they figure out how to fix it...serious BS</blockquote>Where did I say that guardians are not on par with other tanks. You have some of the best hate tools in game with reinforcement, quick rescue, along with 2 hate position skill and a hate over time ability on your achievement tree. Combine those in a pickup group with a hate transfer, dirge or coercer and you should have all the tools at your disposal. We will continue to monitor things though and if the situation warrants I can tweak a few things to help out between updates.Notice the highlighted part. Just another broken promise from our good friends at SOE headquarters. Over 1,100 hours at work since this statement and nothing has even hit test except the failed "stage 2" revamp for a short duration. No significant tweaks have been made, even though an hour or two worth of honest work could make a huge difference. Here is a post I made after the TSO beta NDA was lifted:<div><a href="../user/profile.m?user_id=229351">Rahatmattata</a></div> Loremaster <img src="../images/avatar/EQ2/base/fighter.gif" border="0" /> Joined: Nov 29, 2005 Messages: 1934 Online What's stupid is they act like this takes a long time to do and is a difficult thing to balance. How many 40 hour work weeks does it take? How bout you take an 8 hour day, nerf our dps but add threat to what you nerfed, send it to test for a week or 2, listen to feedback, tweak it... bam done.No, they act like this is a grueling 6 month task of monumental effort. Fighters will continue to be completely unbalanced as always for the rest of the expansion, and probably for the rest of the game's life. Brawlers will continue to be jokes of a tank, guardians will continue to lose aggro to dirges, shadowknights get to enjoy being OP this expansion. Seven months later and we're still stuck halfway though a revamp. Thanks bro. Doing a fantastic job. Nothing is even on test ffs. They really must think tank balance is spot-on OR they are too busy developing player made books and free masters.</blockquote>

ThomasCH

05-31-2009, 07:24 PM

Sigh <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

thial

06-01-2009, 03:23 AM

When will soe get it. Do any of the devs even play guards. Once my pally is 80 my guard will probally never see a heroic instances again he will be raid only. Is this the intended role of the guardian? To do ok in raids but suck at instances in comparison to the other tanks. While the other plate tanks can fill both roles. The other day I took my pally in with a zerker and I was just like dam I could never do any of that with my guard but im sure my pally could and so could an SK. I'd play vanguard but thats another SoE game so there no way I would play it. I heard AoC has got some good updates maybe ill go back to choping heads off over there. Or maybe SoE will open there eyes. Very doubtfull.

TheSpin

06-01-2009, 03:41 AM

Seems to me like even though the 'fighter revamp' is on hold there needs to be some adjustments made asap to help hold you guys over.

RafaelSmith

06-01-2009, 08:48 AM

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seems to me like even though the 'fighter revamp' is on hold there needs to be some adjustments made asap to help hold you guys over.</blockquote>While I agree that some adjustments need to be made........the last thing I would want for this game is anything like what was propsed with the recent fighter revamp. In the end it would have made the game much worse for all fighters.

Kordran

06-01-2009, 01:30 PM

This sort of thing has been an issue for a long time; I remember years ago when Moorgard (at least I think it was him) characterized the class as the "unsung hero", basically with a raid niche. And I think raiding continues to be the prism through which they primarily view the class.Now, if you talked to my guild's MT, he would tell you that the class is fine; he tanks group zones like PoF and Outer Guk without a problem, and in raids he also puts out some really impressive DPS. That said, he is in TSO raid gear and is basically a walking fortress.The problem seems to be at the lower and middle ranges of gear and AA, but the question becomes, how do you balance that so you're making those Guardians more functional and fun to play, without completely overpowering the guys at or near the top end?

RafaelSmith

06-01-2009, 01:45 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>This sort of thing has been an issue for a long time; I remember years ago when Moorgard (at least I think it was him) characterized the class as the "unsung hero", basically with a raid niche. And I think raiding continues to be the prism through which they primarily view the class.Now, if you talked to my guild's MT, he would tell you that the class is fine; he tanks group zones like PoF and Outer Guk without a problem, and in raids he also puts out some really impressive DPS. That said, he is in TSO raid gear and is basically a walking fortress.The problem seems to be at the lower and middle ranges of gear and AA, but the question becomes, how do you balance that so you're making those Guardians more functional and fun to play, without completely overpowering the guys at or near the top end?</blockquote>I think that the current problems have less to do with the classes themselves and more to do with the evolution of content.Guardian is a singlar purpose class.....and the advantages they have in that purposes has slowly been made less and less....too the point that in some cases the only way to really notice the advantage is to read it on the persona window.The games content has scaled such that...at least in heroic content....those few % points of "advantage" are meaningless.I cannot speak to all raiding since I am just now starting to hit VP....but we have yet to come across an encounter that a Crusader or Zerker could not MT as easy or is most cases much easier than a Guard. Since there is no room on a raid for a Guard that is not MT or OT....it kinda makes progressing as new or upcomming Guard difficult.DPS and Aggro....which are pretty much one and the same are absolute KING in terms of what makes a tank successful....at least from my experience thus far.Not sure what or if there is any solution.....sadly it could just be the games evolution is going to have its relics.

Raahl

06-01-2009, 02:12 PM

I've been seriously looking at betraying to Zerker. Sure they have their problems too, but having DPS and survivability is very appealing.I haven't quite taken the leap yet because I don't want to lose all of the masters I've accumulated (maybe 1/2 mastered).IMO, Guardians are a one trick pony. We tank, that's all we do. With the recent cuts to our ability to do moderate DPS, our hate generation is way down. This can make it much more difficult to do our one trick, because aggro is still dependant on DPS.

thial

06-01-2009, 02:19 PM

Kordran

06-01-2009, 03:39 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like the current SK?</blockquote>That's pretty much it. The changes they made to the SK to address problems with the class (problems that I think were largely at the lower end of the spectrum in terms of gear, etc.) ended up making moderately geared SKs very strong and raid-geared SKs incredibly overpowered.It would be idiotic for them to repeat the same thing for Guardians, particularly since now they're in a bind with how to fix what they've done with SKs without causing some kind of uprising amongst the legion of Paladins who betrayed and the FOTMers who just wanted to play an OP plate tank class. Whenever we see mass betrayals, such as what happened in RoK with Berserkers betraying to Guardians, and in TSO with Paladins betraying to SKs, that's an indication of failure, not balance.

LygerT

06-01-2009, 04:23 PM

the problem is as the game progresses you have a range that each class sits in and averages out with a spread also for that class, as time goes on those things get out of whack due to balancing based around raid versus heroic content versus soloing.so say you have a sorceror who is in TSO instance fabled gear, his average would look something like this with a decent group to buff him:|----------*----|say averaging 5k DPS in heroic zones.a guard in the same instanced heroic gear would be somewhere along with a tower shield up in offensive stance:|-----*---|half the DPS of the wizard while holding the shield and about 75% max potential DPS, which is still threat generation.this spread requires you to have some hate buffers/transfers and even then the issue gets progressively worse as time goes on and the spread gets further out of whack between tanks and DPS where the devs consider tanks as a meatshield over DPS as seen by the previous fighter revamp.of course i'm not saying a tank should be equal in DPS to a wizard on single targets but there should be more paths or changes to allow a tank to be more effective at holding aggro on their own but all without FORCING them into just one role of non existent DPS defensive tanking with buffs tied to stances, allowing you to hold aggro while buffless and ruining at least the benefits you gave your group/raid while not tanking or while tanking and trying to move the fights along quicker. tanking should be about choices, a tank should be able to take more damage and dish it out more effectively or choose to deal less damage and take less damage also all while maintaining aggro without the utmost ideal group available to do so.i still see some of the tweaks we had seen on test as necessary for the future but the shoehorn needs to be put away. the other half of the issue is the spread in gear from casual to extreme(avatar drops) needs to be toned down in the future, all it does is aggravate this problem. no, you generally don't have avatar outfitted wizards in group with a heroic geared tank but it is still a viable comparison in the quality of gear that buffs a person from start to end, as time goes on the length of that spectrum grows wider and also causes more issues of classes feeling more slighted since some classes benefit more from some gear than others as well. of course not every class should be vanilla where some exceptional player skill should still show through but only to a certain extent, less than we are currently seeing.part of the issue is on the tanks themselves, too many unskilled tanks now able to rip aggro and bounce off one another all while they don't even know what they are doing to cause it. i blame the encounter progression with more control effects and the need for all tanks to need more snap aggros to progress us to this point, all this for more "challenging" mobs which is what the more hardcore players wanted so that in their 50 hour raid week they wouldn't be blasting through the content in a 3 month period left to whine and moan about the content being too easy.

Undorett

06-01-2009, 08:28 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been seriously looking at betraying to Zerker. Sure they have their problems too, but having DPS and survivability is very appealing.I haven't quite taken the leap yet because I don't want to lose all of the masters I've accumulated (maybe 1/2 mastered).IMO, Guardians are a one trick pony. We tank, that's all we do. With the recent cuts to our ability to do moderate DPS, our hate generation is way down. This can make it much more difficult to do our one trick, because aggro is still dependant on DPS.</blockquote>With how far the "pendulum of balance" swings with every expansion (sometimes with each GU) I would suggest just power leveling a zerker up for the moments when they shine, and you get to keep your guard on the back burner for its time to shine. ROK was a good expansion for guards, and zerkers were left in the cold for a full year. The current devs in charge of balance need to stop messing with spell names and start coming up with a plan to fix the classes that need fixing. While it would be nice if they would bandaid our agro until they get back to class balance, I just don't see it happening. We are on our 2nd of 3 updates we will get before the next expansion (the 4th game update will come out with the expansion) and I just seem to doubt they will be balancing classes in the next. In either the August/September update or the one with the expansion, the big balance act is going to be what we saw in BETA last year: Outleveling gear.

Macross_JR

06-01-2009, 08:54 PM

I honestly don't see where everyone is coming from on this. My guardian has been my secondary character for a very long time but when ever I take him off the shelf for instances I do just fine. Group encounters, single targets, doesn't matter. Yes, I do have to work to keep agro, but he gets the job done. He has his mythical, but is no where near being geared out. I just finished his tso t2 armor on him. If you want to take a look at him his name is Githil, from the permafrost server.

LygerT

06-01-2009, 10:11 PM

if you think betraying to a zerker will help aggro generation issues, it will only help on multiple targets if that is where your issue was. if you are having single target aggro issues betraying won't magically fix your problem.

Raahl

06-01-2009, 11:25 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been seriously looking at betraying to Zerker. Sure they have their problems too, but having DPS and survivability is very appealing.I haven't quite taken the leap yet because I don't want to lose all of the masters I've accumulated (maybe 1/2 mastered).IMO, Guardians are a one trick pony. We tank, that's all we do. With the recent cuts to our ability to do moderate DPS, our hate generation is way down. This can make it much more difficult to do our one trick, because aggro is still dependant on DPS.</blockquote>With how far the "pendulum of balance" swings with every expansion (sometimes with each GU)</blockquote>This is another reason I'm hessitant.

Rahatmattata

06-02-2009, 03:07 AM

<cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do just fine. Group encounters, single targets, doesn't matter.</blockquote>I do alright with a decent setup, or just being better geared than the rest of my group. But guardians have by far the weakest potential for sustained threat of all the plate fighters. Zerkers are comparable with single targets, but at least the have a bag of AoE tricks. Guardians have a slight edge dealing with hard hitting mobs, but that's it. That slight edge comes at a cost to solo ability, DPS, and threat control... and even PvP.I could go on with more issues and imbalances, but it's all been hashed out already and whatever.

Kordran

06-02-2009, 04:32 AM

Emlar_from_Halas

06-02-2009, 06:06 AM

What really makes me sad when I read your posts, is the lack of devs concern despite the time you kept hoping.We all know how much tie you create with your avatar and how much frustration we fill when we cannot play him with fun.Our class went through a set of iterative nerfs (35% datt drop, mythic nerf). What made our class so unique has been shared with every plate tank class. Cruaders who initially could not even wear tower now have better bloc % than us...As another poster said, the issue is really touching hard non-raid guards. As the MT of a raiding guild, I don't face aggro issues, but my gear is in line with our dps stuff. I always have a dirge and a coercer. So I really can't complain. But without them, I know my job would be impossible to run.If you add all this together, you then have a generation of guardians who have been there since the release who are stopping the game. And very few of them are willing to start playing a new class when their pleasure was to play a guardian.Would have been that difficult to multiply hate by 2 on Guard and Impede. Make both of them castable while stun/stiffled, drop recast of Guard to 12 secs. And make slanderous assault castable in less than 2 hours ?I cannot imagine it would have change the class balance that much. It would have help non-raiders guardians a lot, without changing anything on raid encounter. A 10 mins emergency and temporary fix for a 6 months delay. Was it too much to ask ?

RafaelSmith

06-02-2009, 10:12 AM

<cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I honestly don't see where everyone is coming from on this. My guardian has been my secondary character for a very long time but when ever I take him off the shelf for instances I do just fine. Group encounters, single targets, doesn't matter. Yes, I do have to work to keep agro, but he gets the job done. He has his mythical, but is no where near being geared out. I just finished his tso t2 armor on him. If you want to take a look at him his name is Githil, from the permafrost server.</blockquote>No doubt.....I can "get the job done"....but the burdon on the group is far far greater than with one of the other plate fighters.There comes a point where challenge is gone and replaced with frustration which = no fun.Running a moderate to hard TSO instance with a Guard -vs- lets say a average-good SK means....a slower run, everyone having to behave and hold back to compensate for aggro issues......more work for the healer when everyone in the group is taking dmg due to aggro bouncing.....more limitations on what classes can make up the rest of the group.Ok...now what exactly does the Guard provide to that group to compensate for all that? A few % points of MIT on the persona window or a ghetto death-save doesnt count. We are talking about heroic content afterall.

Raahl

06-02-2009, 10:17 AM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would suggest just power leveling a zerker up for the moments when they shine, and you get to keep your guard on the back burner for its time to shine. </blockquote>Before I'd do that I'd level my Ranger alt or my Troubador alt and just hang up my Guardian. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bruener

06-02-2009, 01:40 PM

Another guardian gives up...Can I have all your stuff?

Kordran

06-02-2009, 01:46 PM

<cite>Emlar@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would have been that difficult to multiply hate by 2 on Guard and Impede. Make both of them castable while stun/stiffled, drop recast of Guard to 12 secs. And make slanderous assault castable in less than 2 hours ?I cannot imagine it would have change the class balance that much. It would have help non-raiders guardians a lot, without changing anything on raid encounter. A 10 mins emergency and temporary fix for a 6 months delay. Was it too much to ask ?</blockquote>Honestly, they could do this for all taunts, for all fighter classes and I don't think it would be unbalancing. Right now, there's absolutely no reason to use them at all except for the ones that have a debuff or interrupt attached to them.

Undorett

06-02-2009, 03:50 PM

I use them to proc POTM <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

RafaelSmith

06-02-2009, 06:35 PM

The list of small/minor tweaks they could make that relatively speaking would provide at least some of us much help is long.....why they refuse to do anything is beyond me.For some reason for every "issue" beit small or large......SOE always insists on using a sledghammer, throwing away the wheel....to build a new one.and something that i still do not understand in terms of balance is how since currently SK and Guards pretty much can achieve the same Avoid......they get to keep that Avoid and do more DPS than we do and we have to give up that avoidance to duel wield. So the whole argument of us having "higher" surviveability goes out the window.To me that is significant disparity....at least in terms of generating aggro in groups where i do not always have a group stacked for hate xfer.And yes...I know everything is just "peachy" on raids.

Vlahkmaak

06-03-2009, 02:45 AM

I ran a paladin up virtually over night - my guard is in VP gear or better, the pally is wearing the B'Rarios defender stun shield, Nashar Short Sword and basic crap legendary gear from t8 (working on a bunch of vampiric proc gear for undead zones atm) and the pally has NO problems with aggro. Currently puts out slightly less DPS than my guardian - auto attks for the same to more due to Pally AA and has NO aoe aggro issues: holy ground + any 1 of my 8 aoes does the trick. I grp with the same mythical mains that I do on my guardian and they are impressed. Yes, I know the zones becuase I ahve done them all on my guardian but the pally can do the AOE zones a heck of a lot easier with 2/3 LESS gear than the guardian can. I dont even have to work at aggro like I do on my guardian in the guk zones where everyone has to cooperate to an extent with me when on the guardian. Reinforcement and 2 blue aoes makes the zone alot harder than Amends on the warlock or assassin as I see fit, Siphon hate, holy ground 8 blue aoes (dwarf racial included) and nothing is coming off me. 86% spell crit and 50ish heal crit and 50is melee crit atm with current crap gear compared to my guardain at 80% melee crit when running 80% avoidance gear. On the pally I can get hate from auto attk, heals, or spells. yes - pally takes more damge atm but with my ward, heals, and shield block (which I like - similiar to guardain version) I see him being a MUCH superior instance tank than my guardian for the rest of this expansion. Guardians are borked beyond common sense atm. Please fix the aggro issues of tanks - it is now 7 mos since x-pac launch and guardians have been struggling with this issue for far to long now. On riads SKs rip aggro like nothing w/o trying even when we are fully trasfered when thye are in full dps mode - I know other tanks have thier issues too but I play three tank classes: guardain, pally, and bruiser atm and see a world of difference in what my guardian was intended for at game luanch way back when and the current state of development.

Macross_JR

06-03-2009, 01:46 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I honestly don't see where everyone is coming from on this. My guardian has been my secondary character for a very long time but when ever I take him off the shelf for instances I do just fine. Group encounters, single targets, doesn't matter. Yes, I do have to work to keep agro, but he gets the job done. He has his mythical, but is no where near being geared out. I just finished his tso t2 armor on him. If you want to take a look at him his name is Githil, from the permafrost server.</blockquote>No doubt.....I can "get the job done"....but the burdon on the group is far far greater than with one of the other plate fighters.There comes a point where challenge is gone and replaced with frustration which = no fun.Running a moderate to hard TSO instance with a Guard -vs- lets say a average-good SK means....a slower run, everyone having to behave and hold back to compensate for aggro issues......more work for the healer when everyone in the group is taking dmg due to aggro bouncing.....more limitations on what classes can make up the rest of the group.Ok...now what exactly does the Guard provide to that group to compensate for all that? A few % points of MIT on the persona window or a ghetto death-save doesnt count. We are talking about heroic content afterall.</blockquote>I never ask people to hold back at all, I find it fun to push myself to get the highest group dps out of the groups I run, I sometimes even ask people to try and pull agro. I still find it funny hearing of guards that on group encounters don't keep swapping targets to make sure they are still generating enough hate on the whole encounter...

LygerT

06-03-2009, 02:13 PM

stay defensive, always use a tower shield, use a call in delay so DPS isn't nuking on pull, use all defensive gear, always roll with a gimpy healer.switch those all backwards and you shouldn't have a problem, so long as you have a hate transfer or hate buffer.

Kordran

06-03-2009, 02:34 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>On the pally I can get hate from auto attk, heals, or spells. yes - pally takes more damge atm but with my ward, heals, and shield block (which I like - similiar to guardain version) I see him being a MUCH superior instance tank than my guardian for the rest of this expansion. </blockquote>No question, with TSO the Crusaders are hands down the best instance plate tanks; Paladins are good, Shadowknights are simply phenomenal. In my opinion, the real solution is for SOE to abandon this concept of single-target and multi-target tanks; as many others pointed out, if you have a tank that's good at multi-target encounters, he's going to be good against single mobs as well unless you start introducing some specific mechanics to short-circuit that (in other words, changing the combat mechanics to specifically [Removed for Content] the AE tanks when fighting a single mob).That said, this problem is fairly specific to heroic instance content with a large number of mobs (which is much of TSO); a raiding Guardian in his T4 fabled is a juggernaut. But getting to that point, and for those non-raiding Guardians out there, it can be a problem. So we're back to the question of how does SOE boost the lesser-geared, lower AA Guardians out there without sending the T4 fabled/mythicaled/mastered/200 AA Guardians up into the stratosphere? Their attempt at "fixing" SKs, which resulted in them becoming completely overpowered, shows they're not particularly good at walking that tightrope.

RafaelSmith

06-03-2009, 04:05 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>That said, this problem is fairly specific to heroic instance content with a large number of mobs (which is much of TSO); a raiding Guardian in his T4 fabled is a juggernaut. But getting to that point, and for those non-raiding Guardians out there, it can be a problem. So we're back to the question of how does SOE boost the lesser-geared, lower AA Guardians out there without sending the T4 fabled/mythicaled/mastered/200 AA Guardians up into the stratosphere? Their attempt at "fixing" SKs, which resulted in them becoming completely overpowered, shows they're not particularly good at walking that tightrope.</blockquote>While I admit I still have alot of "L2p" left to do =P.....while my gear is not the greatest....i do have what i think is good gear, my Myth and 200AAs and I am pretty [Removed for Content] far from being in the stratosphere....probably more near just clearing the launch tower =PNot sure at which point gear all the sudden turns tanking tough heroic instances without a perfectly stacked group from frustrating/impossible to fun/challenging.....but ide like to know.Ive been told over and over that I i should shutup because Guards are fine....have better surviveability....well last time I checked....to have any hope of effectively holding aggro in a group...I had to ditch the shield and d-stance.....maybe Im missing something but that cuts ALOT of my surviveability.I wanna tank as a Guard.......not some bastardized version of a pretend scout/zerker mix.

Landiin

06-03-2009, 05:04 PM

<cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never ask people to hold back at all, I find it fun to push myself to get the highest group dps out of the groups I run, I sometimes even ask people to try and pull agro. I still find it funny hearing of guards that on group encounters don't keep swapping targets to make sure they are still generating enough hate on the whole encounter...</blockquote>You are a lier, have dirge/Coec or your groups can't DPS their way out of a wet paper bag. There is zero way you can hold agro off a myth warlock, wizard goign full out with out hate tranfer unless they just flat out can not play.Give a warrior a dirge and/or Coec then yea our agro issue are prety much gone. BUT a pally or SK does not need them.

Kordran

06-03-2009, 05:28 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Give a warrior a dirge and/or Coec then yea our agro issue are prety much gone. BUT a pally or SK does not need them.</blockquote>Need? Not just in terms of aggro control, no. But if you're running through Outer Stronghold, Palace or even some of the easier zones (Necrotic, Atrebe's, etc.) you're nuts if you're going in there without a proper group build. So while I may not "need" them as a Paladin, I sure as heck want them, because I don't like spending more time in a zone than needed because of sub-optimal group configurations.In other words, those are classes that are part of the foundation of a good TSO group, regardless of who's tanking. That's why my friends list has a few healers I regularly group with, but is filled to the brim with Enchanters and Bards. Never leave home without them.

RafaelSmith

06-03-2009, 05:41 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never ask people to hold back at all, I find it fun to push myself to get the highest group dps out of the groups I run, I sometimes even ask people to try and pull agro. I still find it funny hearing of guards that on group encounters don't keep swapping targets to make sure they are still generating enough hate on the whole encounter...</blockquote>You are a lier, have dirge/Coec or your groups can't DPS their way out of a wet paper bag. There is zero way you can hold agro off a myth warlock, wizard goign full out with out hate tranfer unless they just flat out can not play.Give a warrior a dirge and/or Coec then yea our agro issue are prety much gone. BUT a pally or SK does not need them.</blockquote>Agreed....there is no way a Guard without any form of hate xfer can keep aggro in a group of wizards and warlocks that are truely going all out on DPS...... Now if by "highest" he means Wizards/Locks that do 3k then yeah I can see where he has no issue. But when highest should really be at a minimum in the 8k+, 10k+ range there is no way.

LygerT

06-03-2009, 07:03 PM

replace the word guard with warrior.it may be easier for a zerk against the warlock but without an almost ideal group we have the same issues you do, we just express our frustruation in different ways by attacking people. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Landiin

06-04-2009, 03:52 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Give a warrior a dirge and/or Coec then yea our agro issue are prety much gone. BUT a pally or SK does not need them.</blockquote>Need? Not just in terms of aggro control, no. But if you're running through Outer Stronghold, Palace or even some of the easier zones (Necrotic, Atrebe's, etc.) you're nuts if you're going in there without a proper group build. So while I may not "need" them as a Paladin, I sure as heck want them, because I don't like spending more time in a zone than needed because of sub-optimal group configurations.In other words, those are classes that are part of the foundation of a good TSO group, regardless of who's tanking. That's why my friends list has a few healers I regularly group with, but is filled to the brim with Enchanters and Bards. Never leave home without them.</blockquote>Exactly!!! They are a preferred class for crusaders not a needed class like the are for warriors. I've seen Crusaders do these zones with out any issue with out them.

RafaelSmith

06-04-2009, 10:10 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Give a warrior a dirge and/or Coec then yea our agro issue are prety much gone. BUT a pally or SK does not need them.</blockquote>Need? Not just in terms of aggro control, no. But if you're running through Outer Stronghold, Palace or even some of the easier zones (Necrotic, Atrebe's, etc.) you're nuts if you're going in there without a proper group build. So while I may not "need" them as a Paladin, I sure as heck want them, because I don't like spending more time in a zone than needed because of sub-optimal group configurations.In other words, those are classes that are part of the foundation of a good TSO group, regardless of who's tanking. That's why my friends list has a few healers I regularly group with, but is filled to the brim with Enchanters and Bards. Never leave home without them.</blockquote>There is a huge difference between "want" and "need".

Kordran

06-04-2009, 12:57 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Give a warrior a dirge and/or Coec then yea our agro issue are prety much gone. BUT a pally or SK does not need them.</blockquote>Need? Not just in terms of aggro control, no. But if you're running through Outer Stronghold, Palace or even some of the easier zones (Necrotic, Atrebe's, etc.) you're nuts if you're going in there without a proper group build. So while I may not "need" them as a Paladin, I sure as heck want them, because I don't like spending more time in a zone than needed because of sub-optimal group configurations.In other words, those are classes that are part of the foundation of a good TSO group, regardless of who's tanking. That's why my friends list has a few healers I regularly group with, but is filled to the brim with Enchanters and Bards. Never leave home without them.</blockquote>There is a huge difference between "want" and "need".</blockquote>Semantically, yeah. In practical terms, regardless of what plate tank you're bringing along you'd significantly benefit from having those classes in the group. I don't do pickup groups, so my personal "want" is also my "need" ... in other words, I simply do not do groups without a proper build, so for me it's a moot point.But, like I said, I acknowledge the issue is there. Hopefully SOE decides to pay you guys some attention.

Rahatmattata

06-05-2009, 01:20 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't do pickup groups, so my personal "want" is also my "need" ... in other words, I simply do not do groups without a proper build, so for me it's a moot point.But, like I said, I acknowledge the issue is there. Hopefully SOE decides to pay you guys some attention.</blockquote>Well that's great, but there are hundreds of tanks that do pug and get invited to groups that have no utilty or transfer; crusaders can do it, warriors can't. Unless there is a gap in gear quality in the tank's favor.

RafaelSmith

06-05-2009, 01:38 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't do pickup groups, so my personal "want" is also my "need" ... in other words, I simply do not do groups without a proper build, so for me it's a moot point.But, like I said, I acknowledge the issue is there. Hopefully SOE decides to pay you guys some attention.</blockquote>Well that's great, but there are hundreds of tanks that do pug and get invited to groups that have no utilty or transfer; crusaders can do it, warriors can't. Unless there is a gap in gear quality in the tank's favor.</blockquote>The issue is not just with those that pug. Smaller guilds do not always have a full roster of the required xfer classes.I know in my guild......our SK can grab a healer and any other 4 and pretty much hit all but a few of the top hardest TSO instances.Unless I am content doing Deep Forge over and over again....i do not dare try to form a group without hate xfer.

LygerT

06-05-2009, 01:39 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>That said, this problem is fairly specific to heroic instance content with a large number of mobs (which is much of TSO); a raiding Guardian in his T4 fabled is a juggernaut. But getting to that point, and for those non-raiding Guardians out there, it can be a problem. So we're back to the question of how does SOE boost the lesser-geared, lower AA Guardians out there without sending the T4 fabled/mythicaled/mastered/200 AA Guardians up into the stratosphere? Their attempt at "fixing" SKs, which resulted in them becoming completely overpowered, shows they're not particularly good at walking that tightrope.</blockquote>While I admit I still have alot of "L2p" left to do =P.....while my gear is not the greatest....i do have what i think is good gear, my Myth and 200AAs and I am pretty [Removed for Content] far from being in the stratosphere....probably more near just clearing the launch tower =PNot sure at which point gear all the sudden turns tanking tough heroic instances without a perfectly stacked group from frustrating/impossible to fun/challenging.....but ide like to know.Ive been told over and over that I i should shutup because Guards are fine....have better surviveability....well last time I checked....to have any hope of effectively holding aggro in a group...I had to ditch the shield and d-stance.....maybe Im missing something but that cuts ALOT of my surviveability.I wanna tank as a Guard.......not some bastardized version of a pretend scout/zerker mix.</blockquote>many tanks remain to having your vision of tanking style. the truth is the problem lies in what you just said, ALL tanks are bastardized scouts and have been for a long while. defensive tanking has always been broken when you do not have the optimal hate transfers or buffers. if you do not adapt to the situation then you really only have yourself to blame.any tank can toss on all of their defensive gear and look at their persona window and feel warm and fuzzy over their avoidance figures but we know that avoidance does not hold aggro.the guards who have stopped defending this are the ones who use every range of the spectrum, from full defensive tower shield to jewel of animosity dual wield offensive tanking. you can't sit at one end of the spectrum and say the game is broken when you refuse to explore the rest of that spectrum just because you feel it isn't your style.some days i use my choker and leather armor out of necessity, i don't sit and think about why i do it or how much less of a tank it actually makes me, i do it so i can enjoy the game.

Kordran

06-05-2009, 01:58 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't do pickup groups, so my personal "want" is also my "need" ... in other words, I simply do not do groups without a proper build, so for me it's a moot point.But, like I said, I acknowledge the issue is there. Hopefully SOE decides to pay you guys some attention.</blockquote>Well that's great, but there are hundreds of tanks that do pug and get invited to groups that have no utilty or transfer; crusaders can do it, warriors can't. Unless there is a gap in gear quality in the tank's favor.</blockquote>This is a related issue, but in truth Guardians haven't really been considered ideal "PUG" tanks for a long time. Several expansions ago, it was the Berserkers who ruled the day. Paladins became somewhat popular during RoK and these days, it's Shadowknights. Guardians, more or less, have been considered niche tanks that are pretty much good for one thing: as the main tank in a raid. And like I said, rightly or wrongly, this is the prisim through which SOE continues to look at the class.

RafaelSmith

06-05-2009, 02:49 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>the guards who have stopped defending this are the ones who use every range of the spectrum, from full defensive tower shield to jewel of animosity dual wield offensive tanking. you can't sit at one end of the spectrum and say the game is broken when you refuse to explore the rest of that spectrum just because you feel it isn't your style.some days i use my choker and leather armor out of necessity, i don't sit and think about why i do it or how much less of a tank it actually makes me, i do it so i can enjoy the game.</blockquote>Im reminded of the recent Toyata commercial for Camry.

Landiin

06-05-2009, 03:01 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is a related issue, but in truth Guardians haven't really been considered ideal "PUG" tanks for a long time. Several expansions ago, it was the Berserkers who ruled the day. Paladins became somewhat popular during RoK and these days, it's Shadowknights. Guardians, more or less, have been considered niche tanks that are pretty much good for one thing: as the main tank in a raid. And like I said, rightly or wrongly, this is the prisim through which SOE continues to look at the class.</blockquote>Whit this is true, it still don't account for the agro issues between warriors and crusaders. Agro is what this entire thing is all about. Warriors simply can't hold agro with out xfer verry good. Put a crusader as MT and they will have a solid lock on ago if they don't suck.. Warriors still have to work for it. Let us have to use a shield and we realy have to work our butt off. Really at this time unless your warrior is way better geared then your crusader there is really no reason to have the warrior tank its more productive to have the crusader tank.

steelbadger

06-05-2009, 04:33 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is a related issue, but in truth Guardians haven't really been considered ideal "PUG" tanks for a long time. Several expansions ago, it was the Berserkers who ruled the day. Paladins became somewhat popular during RoK and these days, it's Shadowknights. Guardians, more or less, have been considered niche tanks that are pretty much good for one thing: as the main tank in a raid. And like I said, rightly or wrongly, this is the prisim through which SOE continues to look at the class.</blockquote>Whit this is true, it still don't account for the agro issues between warriors and crusaders. Agro is what this entire thing is all about. Warriors simply can't hold agro with out xfer verry good. Put a crusader as MT and they will have a solid lock on ago if they don't suck.. Warriors still have to work for it. Let us have to use a shield and we realy have to work our butt off. Really at this time unless your warrior is way better geared then your crusader there is really no reason to have the warrior tank its more productive to have the crusader tank.</blockquote>I really have to agree with this, while I do spend a lot of time tanking trash in raid zones I can't help but feel it is far from optimal.To hold aggro I have to be off-stance with dps gear and dual-wielding, and that's fine, I stay alive and hold aggro. But why go to all that effort when the Paladin can hold aggro more reliably in off-stance with a shield, take less damage and allow the healers to churn out a bit more dps?I really only feel that it's worth my being present when we're working on mobs we haven't yet killed, in almost all other circumstances we'd be better off (and finished faster) if we simply had the Paladin do it (I'd make more comments on SKs but our SK is on a break so I don't really know).

RafaelSmith

06-05-2009, 04:49 PM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really only feel that it's worth my being present when we're working on mobs we haven't yet killed, in almost all other circumstances we'd be better off (and finished faster) if we simply had the Paladin do it (I'd make more comments on SKs but our SK is on a break so I don't really know).</blockquote>Ditto here <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> True for raids and very true for heroic TSO.

Yimway

06-05-2009, 05:21 PM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really only feel that it's worth my being present when we're working on mobs we haven't yet killed, in almost all other circumstances we'd be better off (and finished faster) if we simply had the Paladin do it (I'd make more comments on SKs but our SK is on a break so I don't really know).</blockquote>BINGO!Its better for me to play a dps alt until we get to some very specific encounters.

Kordran

06-05-2009, 06:14 PM

Well, once a guild has a mob (or zone) on farm status, pretty much any plate tank, heck even some well geared brawlers, can get the job done. This isn't new, it used to be that Guardians were considered the only suitable class to main tank VP. Today, that's the case for the harder TSO mobs. Tomorrow, that'll ramp up to something else.I think in SOE's vision of things, the Guardian is designed to be the specialty tank. He's the guy you go to when the going gets tough. The problem becomes reconciling that with a more general purpose functionality for the Guardian that makes them fun to play in all types of content, but doesn't result in them being considered the only viable tank in the game. We've already been down that path in the past (pre KoS) where Guardians and tank were basically synonymous.One thing I think might be worth considering is giving the Guardian options through AAs. In effect, give them a line where some of their attacks are converted to AEs that do less damage, but have high threat components. The goal would be to make them as capable in holding AE aggro, but don't have the damage output of Berserkers (otherwise, why would anyone play a Berserker?). It would have to be carefully balanced of course, but I think something like this could be viable and would address most of the concerns that Guardians have with the TSO content which is heavily biased towards multi-mob encounters.Edit: My spelling sucks.

Landiin

06-06-2009, 02:40 PM

Still why use a warrior Kordran? A crusader will be putting out more DPS and taking a minute amount more DMG 99% of the time while holding rock solid agro. DPS in this game ATM is king, so if there is a class that can productively take the DMG, hold the ago and put out some nice DPS that class will be the preferred class to take. As long as one fighter is equal or better at DMG, Agro and DPS then things are unbalanced plane and simple.

Kordran

06-07-2009, 03:24 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still why use a warrior Kordran? A crusader will be putting out more DPS and taking a minute amount more DMG 99% of the time while holding rock solid agro. DPS in this game ATM is king, so if there is a class that can productively take the DMG, hold the ago and put out some nice DPS that class will be the preferred class to take. As long as one fighter is equal or better at DMG, Agro and DPS then things are unbalanced plane and simple.</blockquote>It really depends on the specifics there. There are fights where I would absolutely want a Guardian as the MT, particularly the first few times through. And I'd pretty much want a decked out Guard as the MT for any avatar fight. Like I said, in their TSO x4 set, they're a juggernaut.Really, the problem isn't at the upper end of the spectrum, it's at the lower end. And I don't think there's a good answer for you there.

Tybr

06-07-2009, 07:27 PM

Well it will be sad to see ya go.Me I just returned having found the grass is certainly not greener on the other side. I wish you the best of luck and hope you change yer mind and stay. If ya like I'll save you some time on the other games i've on since I left awhile ago. Please keep in mind I PvP mostly.WoW = No player taunt for pvp...yuckRune of Magic = Too expensive.Warhammer = Does anyone play that game?Eve = How long has that guy from Germany been playing my god!There have been quite a few others but they tend to fade into the grey background of time. I would recomend only one thing.Do not give up your stuff.Best of luck.

Razzak

06-10-2009, 09:37 AM

I honestly do not know what else to do here. Although aggro was somewhat of a struggle at times, my raid force was able to "tweak" themselves without loosing DPS. Within the last 2 weeks, however, I have been loosing aggro right and left. Scouts pulling, The SK OT pulling, Mages pulling. Don't know what else I can do. MT group consists of a Dirge, Assassin and Coercer so hate should NOT be an issue. To make matters worse, when I go into offensive stance and dual-wield, it gets worse! I am putting out 4 - 5k dual wielding so if dps = threat, I say BS. Also, does anyone have Executioner's Anger spec'd? I pulled all my points out of that since a majority of raid tanks said it was a waste. I'm always looking to improve and am always looking at other raid tanks AA's and gear via EQ2Players. Since <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/43862-when-will-sony-fix-guardian-post960881.html#post960881" target="_blank">Wulfghar</a> did not have any issues holding aggro, I wanted to see what where he put his AA's, but alas, he locked his view. <img title="Smiley Wink" src="http://eq2flames.com/images/smilies/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" /> I say we are broken and any input that you guys have would be appreciated. My AA's are <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=1335648104" target="_blank">here</a> if you have any suggestions.

thial

06-10-2009, 12:34 PM

Your AA's look ok. Do you have a troub running the deaagro song in the DPS groups? Sk's will nab agro off ya especialy when it's trash mobs I wouldn't worry about that it is his and his healers problem, I never waist rescues on another tank getting agro UNLESS it's a name just yell into voice when he gets agro so he doesn't let the mob frontal the raid. Eventually his healers will either get anoyed and ask him to stop or he will die and start watching the meter. If anyone trys to make it look like it's your fault tell em to f off, any tank can take agro off any tank it's by game design some just do it easier/not wanted. Personally I don't care how much DPS an off tank is doing they need to keep there meter around 80-90% and if it starts getting over 90% lay off. I found on the rare ocassion that I was ot/dps I could auto attack and stay at 90% sure my dps sucked but who cares Im there if the MT goes down or looses it, thats my job at the time. As far as dps taking agro, like I said before make sure your troub is running deagro if you don't have one get one, two ideally. Make sure the wizzy has his hate xfer on you if you could swap the assan for a swashy. Also check the DPS ur coercer and scout are putting out the dps they do directly affects your hate gain if there not pushing enough your not getting enough. I don't know your raid force so it's really hard to say what's going on but I know i've done 3k dps with a raid dps of 160k and never lost it ive also had times where I'm doing 6k with a 110k raid dps and I loose it because of the wrong setup.editChanged permissions so you could take a look at my AA's but there almost the same as yours

Razzak

06-10-2009, 01:53 PM

Thanks for the input. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />I got a reply on Flames b4 I saw this one and switched my AA's up a bit. Here is what I am going to try for those interested:Ninrab:As for AA there are a few ways to increase DPS still... In Warrior tree I'd say put more points into Acceleration Strike 6 points minimum. (take from exe wrath and parry) In Guardian tree I'd say max all in slaughtering. IIRC the one you put only 3 in is the highest or 2nd highest on parses. In crippling, only obliterate is needed, very good as a first attack and doesn't get worse by having 5 extra seconds added onto it. For stalwarthing, only TOS and Guardian Sphere needs to be maxed, Rallying cry is good as well. Stability tree looks good as is, although sentry watch isn't bad to put any left over points in. Shadows trees: Put points into Swinging Strike (5), Enhance: Rescue (2) and Rallying Cry (5). The ones you can take from are Consummate Defender, Aggressive Nature, Guardian's Will and Veteran's Shielding. That should increase DPS a bit and you should get to the minimum reuse time with rescue as well.

RafaelSmith

06-10-2009, 02:13 PM

<cite>Razzak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for the input. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />I got a reply on Flames b4 I saw this one and switched my AA's up a bit. Here is what I am going to try for those interested:Ninrab:As for AA there are a few ways to increase DPS still... In Warrior tree I'd say put more points into Acceleration Strike 6 points minimum. (take from exe wrath and parry) In Guardian tree I'd say max all in slaughtering. IIRC the one you put only 3 in is the highest or 2nd highest on parses. In crippling, only obliterate is needed, very good as a first attack and doesn't get worse by having 5 extra seconds added onto it. For stalwarthing, only TOS and Guardian Sphere needs to be maxed, Rallying cry is good as well. Stability tree looks good as is, although sentry watch isn't bad to put any left over points in. Shadows trees: Put points into Swinging Strike (5), Enhance: Rescue (2) and Rallying Cry (5). The ones you can take from are Consummate Defender, Aggressive Nature, Guardian's Will and Veteran's Shielding. That should increase DPS a bit and you should get to the minimum reuse time with rescue as well.</blockquote>Looking forward to hearing how things work out.I have been messing around with various AA builds hoping to find one that improves my aggro with very little sucess.As it stands at the moment I struggle ALOT with AE to the point that I have stopped offering to MT TSO instances for my guild...lack of confidence and simply not wanting to ruin other peoples gameplay and chance at loot. Especially, when they can just grab an SK from guild or channels and have a low stress optimal experience.And am even starting to struggle unexplainably with single targets.

Razzak

06-10-2009, 02:37 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>And am even starting to struggle unexplainably with single targets.</blockquote>This is exacally what I am experiencing. This crap has only started recently. I smell ninja nerf / change to the way hate / threat is generated.

LygerT

06-10-2009, 03:01 PM

just because you have optimal classes in the MT group does NOT mean everything will be peachy.the coercer is a split type of hate, they have to DPS to feed you hate and the other half is a hate buff for you. dirges buff your hate gain and assassins are a straight hate transfer. so if the coercer and assassin are poorly played, you will still have aggro issues against well played DPS classes outside the main tank group. if you're working on multiple mobs, swap the assassin for a swashy since they can feed you better AE hate. if your coercer is doing 3k, kick them in the butt and tell them they need to do better. if your assassin is being outparsed by the swashy then they should retire because that should never happen, the MT assassin should almost always be leading your raidwide parses or at least close to it with the exception of a few people in better stacked groups, since the MT group isn't optimal for an assassin.

RafaelSmith

06-10-2009, 03:53 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>just because you have optimal classes in the MT group does NOT mean everything will be peachy.the coercer is a split type of hate, they have to DPS to feed you hate and the other half is a hate buff for you. dirges buff your hate gain and assassins are a straight hate transfer. so if the coercer and assassin are poorly played, you will still have aggro issues against well played DPS classes outside the main tank group. if you're working on multiple mobs, swap the assassin for a swashy since they can feed you better AE hate.if your coercer is doing 3k, kick them in the butt and tell them they need to do better. if your assassin is being outparsed by the swashy then they should retire because that should never happen, the MT assassin should almost always be leading your raidwide parses or at least close to it with the exception of a few people in better stacked groups, since the MT group isn't optimal for an assassin.</blockquote>I am actually refering to problems in instances not raids.

LygerT

06-11-2009, 06:35 AM

i should have quoted, that was for Razzak.

Razzak

06-11-2009, 09:51 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looking forward to hearing how things work out.I have been messing around with various AA builds hoping to find one that improves my aggro with very little sucess.</blockquote>Before the raid last night I asked the assassin and the coercer in my group not to hold back so we can increase hate. Also, as the assassin is our MA, he was not attacking until the assist was called. We decided that the assassin and coercer would start attacking right after I get my first hit in and call for the assist at the normal time. It was AWESOME!! The threat meter 2nd position used to hang out at 80 - 99% followed by someone pulling from me. Last night the threat meter 2nd position never got above 55%! DPS raid wide actually went up! It was great! Last night was the first night I had "fun" tanking for almost 2 months. Want to thank Ninrab for his comments. This slight change jumped my SW DPS from 1.5 - 2k to 3.4 - 4k and DW DPS went from 3k to 6k! Thank you thial for your comments. That helped the threat portion.Razzak is a happy tank again. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

RafaelSmith

06-11-2009, 11:59 AM

<cite>Razzak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looking forward to hearing how things work out.I have been messing around with various AA builds hoping to find one that improves my aggro with very little sucess.</blockquote>Before the raid last night I asked the assassin and the coercer in my group not to hold back so we can increase hate. Also, as the assassin is our MA, he was not attacking until the assist was called. We decided that the assassin and coercer would start attacking right after I get my first hit in and call for the assist at the normal time. It was AWESOME!! The threat meter 2nd position used to hang out at 80 - 99% followed by someone pulling from me. Last night the threat meter 2nd position never got above 55%! DPS raid wide actually went up! It was great! Last night was the first night I had "fun" tanking for almost 2 months. Want to thank Ninrab for his comments. This slight change jumped my SW DPS from 1.5 - 2k to 3.4 - 4k and DW DPS went from 3k to 6k! Thank you thial for your comments. That helped the threat portion.Razzak is a happy tank again. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Gratz!! Glad to here things got better for you.