Berserker aggro suggestions

[lotharin]

<p>Hello everyone,</p><p>While I enjoy input by other classes, lets try to keep this constructive and positive.  If you don't have an alternative suggestion to provide and just want to type, "No way, no how," you are not welcome here.  This is meant to be way for people to discuss options, not belittle others for suggesting options.  This is just a discussion on the berserker class and solutions to it.  While you can compare, we aren't looking for people to derail this thread with discussions on how other classes are perceived as being worse off. </p><p>So here we go.  I thought that I would bring some ideas to the table regarding berserker aggro increasing suggestions.  As well all know, the average berserker (tier 1 shard armor, fabled epic, etc.) have fallen behind the curve in relation to other plate tanks, specifically crusaders.  With this in mind, I think that we need to look at what current abilities we have now and increasing their effectiveness to help close this gap.  I am not advocating nerfs of any kind.  I want adjustments made to our class to help fix the disparity between classes.  While I am not claiming that this will be the end all fix to all the tank woes (bruisers could use some love as well), I believe that this would be a good start to getting things going in the right direction.</p><p>1)  One of the biggest issues that we face is that the defensive stance is not viable in today's group.  With the current dps that other classes are putting out, the -weapon skill effect on the defensive stance is killing our own dps, and therefore our ability to keep aggro.  While this effects all tanks, it effects us more as we rely on our melee dps more than other classes as we do not have an aggro decreasing buff or an aggro transfer to help compensate.  So lets do away with the skill decrease and exchange it with a decrease in our CA damage.  Possibly 3 - 5% (depending on if its app, adept, or master).  Before you discredit this idea claiming that it will destroy more of our aggro, please read on.</p><p>2)  Berserk.   Great ability but it could do so much more to help us with our aggro.  Currently it increases our attack speed and DPS. </p><p>        A)  How about adding in a double attack component?  At adept 3, the increase in attack speed and dps is 28 points.  How about adding 75% of that in DA.  So, 21% increase in DA.  This will help increase our dps, and therefore increase our aggro. </p><p>        B)  Another possibility that I could see would be decreasing the reuse timer of our CAs by 15% while we are berserk.  This will enable us to use our CAs faster while, in turn, will allow us to use our taunts more often.</p><p>3)  Turmoil.  How about adding an aggro component to this spell that gives 20% more aggro to the target encounter based on the damage amount.  So if the spell does 450 - 850 dmg, it will also add 90 - 170 aggro per proc (it maxes out at 10 procs if you don't have the raid armor).  Now remember, this adds aggro to the target encounter, not the target.  This would help differentiate us from guardians and paladins as an AE tank.</p><p>4)  Let's work on making CAs a viable option to working on building aggro. </p><p>         A)  Increase all CA base dmg by 50%.  They do horrible damage as it stands.  This will help increase our aggro.</p><p>         B)  Add 1000ish to our kick and primary slash CAs.  For this to be effective, you would need to make it so that the hate went through even if you missed your CA (raid named suck for this). </p><p>         C)  If C isn't an option, due to us being AE tanks, add the hate to our Blue AEs and green stun.  You would need to reduce all 3 to 1.5 seconds or less for this to be an option.  Currently, our green encounter attack casts too slow to be effective.  Its cast time is 2.5 seconds.  If we are hasted to 1.8 sec delay, this will kill our aggro through auto attack.  It needs to be decreased, same with our 2 blue AEs.</p><p>5)  Rouse.  Add a proc to it that reads as the following:</p><p>          On any successful combat attack, this spell has a chance to cast Fury of War (lame name but whatever) on the caster's group.  Lasts for 10 seconds.  This effect will trigger an average of 2.0 times per minute.</p><p>               -  Transfers 7.5% of the target's hate to the berserker.</p><p>The benefit of this spell is that it will be up to the DPS to recognize when this spell is on them to know that they can increase the DPS output they are generating.</p><p>Not all of these need to be implemented to help bring about a change.  But I think that implementing a few will go a long way toward helping out the berserker class.  Thoughts?</p>

[Elanjar]

<p>Comment 1: most of those are OP</p><p>Comment 2: this all pertains to increasing dps, which is not the only way of generating agro (your post topic), and even a zerker in T1 / T2 shard gear with epic can rival a T2 chain dps class in similar gear. Increasing dps is unlikely to go through.</p>

[lotharin]

<p>Oops, I didn't clarify some things that need to be adjusted.</p><p>2A and 2B)  I don't advocate for both, just one or the other.</p><p>Same with 4A-C) only 1 of those options.  Also, 4B and C are referring to increasing hate, not damage.</p><p>The hate transfer could be modified to reduce the aggro if non-fighter and increase aggro if fighter.  5% each way.  This way the hate gain/loss is based on your current hate, not others hate.</p><p>I agree that #3 could be considered a little much but there are additional options to adjusting that.  Possibly reducing the hate gate to 10%.</p><p>As far as overpowered, I agree but I would rather Sony start out overpowered and worth their way back when adjusting the concept than start out super weak and work their way up.  Also, instead of saying they are overpowered, how about saying HOW they are overpowered.  That would go a lot further than just stating an opinion.</p>

[Zanshen]

<p>I've been a zerker and playing EQ2 since Friends and Family Beta invites and I honestly believe the class feels more balanced and tuned to our role as MT / OT / Group tank now than it ever has.  I've succesfully MTed every mob from last expansion and every one this expansion upto and including:  Zarrakon, Tyrannus, Mynzak and Gynok.</p><p>A good solid Guardian still has an edge over us as MTs - as well they should.  However, conversely, a poorly played Guard will lag behind a well played Zerker.  And that's how it <strong>should</strong> work.  But, in the past, as I'm sure many of the long time zerkers will tell you, that simply wasn't the case.  Guardians were <strong>the</strong> choice for MTs, even medicore Guards out-tanked well played Zerkers, and it was extremely rare to see any other class MTing.</p><p>Likewise I don't see our current DPS as out of proportion either.  A well played scout will always out parse a well played zerker given equal buffs - yes even on multi-mob encounters.  Zerkers sure aren't cranking out 20k+ on single PoA trash.  The gap might be a whole lot closer on multis than on singles, but that's what zerkers do.  And, even so, the gap isn't all <strong>that</strong> close.  I was MTing PoA earlier this week on the room break headed to Penta where your raid gets jumped after your portal thru and the Conj pumped out 25K on that encounter.</p><p>As far as hate goes, sure we don't have amends or an "easy button" where we can hit Grave Sacrament and go AFK to make a sammich.  <strong>Nor do I want either of those!</strong>  We few who have been playing the zerker since release - who have never strayed, never betrayed and stuck it out knew what we were getting ourselves into.  We knew we'd have to work a lil harder and we'd need to play a lil better to keep in step with our Guard brothers.  We'd have to balance gear / AAs closely between dps and survivability, or stance dance, or adren+jugger+turmoil, or learn the countless other things we do to give us that edge.  But, that was the fun and the challenge of the Zerker.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Just nerf Grave Sacrament and Amends, and SKs and Pallys will be closer to balanced imo.</p><p>Once you get your TSO Berserker end lines aggro problems greatly diminish.</p>

[Elanjar]

<p>You dont even need all the endlines. You just need to find a best friend that plays a coercer or dirge <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Curs3]

<p>for some reason i did better as zerk before buckler change.</p><p>now kind of lost on the aa part.. specially when my pally counter part thinks its funny to steal aggro from me.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>The buckler change was significant, reducing double attack by a whole 35%, so it's no surprise to have problems afterwards.</p>

[Mephistophelese]

<p>when it comes to agro management any tank of any class can have agrop probs , if your having more probs than you think you should you need to  be a bit more picky on group make up, that alone makes any group successfull or a failure</p>

[Costa]

<p>It's probably been said 100 times before but people who know how to play a dps class very rarely pull agro even when they are turning on the damage. Agro management is just as much the dps responsability as it is the tanks. If your grouping with people that are constantly pulling agro then you need to either improve on your tanking ability or your dps need to try and build their damage slower. I've noticed a lot of dps wanting to try and outstrip everyone else on the parse rather than playing for the group <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>The hardest class i personaly have with holding agro from are brigands and a lot of that is because they try to keep mobs stun locked. This is great if they are trying to help the healers by reducing the damage to the tank but the down side is that these abilities tend to annoy the mob a lot and prevent it from hitting you. The tank getting hit less reduces the amount of hate you can generate through procs etc. I tend to find that if a dps class pulls agro more than they should do, they tend to readjust their damage once they die a few times and are taking armor damage <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Yes Zerks are limited to what they can use to gain hate etc but with TSO we got some nice snap agro abilities just a shame the aoe isn't really an aoe in the fact you need to have a target and it be in range to use <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[LygerT]

<p>i doubt they have any plans of nerfing other tanks hate, since they did give pallies the M2 amends choice now after all.</p><p>i always enjoyed working to hold aggro, would be nice if other classes had to do the same but eh, whatever. it allows them to be more flexible, zerker was never an easymode class, we have always had to work for what we have and can do.</p>

[Curs3]

<p>as much as i'd like to call out people and say they don't play right, debuff and build up your dps better.. i dont think that will fly if the whole group is doing it.</p><p>although i do say "hey, you see that hate meter? use it"</p><p>kind of at the end of my rope on fighting people these days. gets pretty rediculous as i dont have a magic "100% aggro retention until canceled" button.</p>

[Destria]

<p>I have to agree with Lyger, wholeheartedly, I really enjoy the task of really having to work on holding aggro, yes, at times, when I have a mythicaled dirge doing so much DPS/Debuffs that they are pulling over the sorcerer, i want to rage quit; why should a utility do that much dps to begin with, the argument of tanks are tanks they don't need dps is ok on us..but utility is utility why does it need dps is a blacklistable offense...but I digress...possible derailment of the thread.   Anyways, I've tried playing a guardian...and it was boring, I mean, you have 101 ways to hold hate, and methods to protect the entire group, and reduce peoples aggro.  its a cakewalk to tank on a guardian, and subsequently, quite boring, atleast a zerker we have to keep on our toes and makes for a much more interesting time.</p>

[Xita]

<p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i doubt they have any plans of nerfing other tanks hate, since they did give pallies the M2 amends choice now after all.</p><p>i always enjoyed working to hold aggro, would be nice if other classes had to do the same but eh, whatever. it allows them to be more flexible, zerker was never an easymode class, we have always had to work for what we have and can do.</p></blockquote><p>I have always called a guard a zerker with training wheels for this exact reason. I recently aquired my myth, and noticed that about every gripe i have been having with our class and aggro management vanished with it. It is kind of a shame the class needs the myth to be truly effective, but it does make a huge difference. (prior to myth while tanking the next highest aggro was in the high 80's now it is in the high 40's)</p><p>that being said, crusader hate gain is a little out of whack still... if i have to get aggro back from them, its fun, and would be impossible without positional aggro modifications...</p>

[LygerT]

<p>our class is based on gear, it is what makes AND breaks us eventually versus other classes. maybe the zerker is the ideal tank or maybe the other classes are with less restrictions built into them. that is the million dollar question right now.</p>

[Xita]

<p>I would mostly agree, we are heavily gear dependent, i didn't realize that till i finally broke through a "gear wall" and got the good stuff, but I think our class more than the other classes is skill dependent...</p><p>Not saying that other classes dont require skill, I know of an Amazing paladin on our server, he has skill, but other than him most other paladins just seem adequate and they all more or less play the same. I can say the same for guardians as well, there are a few notables and then a bunch of capables. With zerkers you either play with skill or you totally suck, so the number of "capable" zerkers is similar to the number of "awesome" pallies and guards...</p><p>I won't talk about SK's</p><p>I think the only class where I have seen a greater skill gap than zerker is Illusionist, very few very good illus but wow they are impressive when you find them.</p>

[Haze]

<p>The only thought I was having on improving the zerker class is to change up, or add, an ability to berserk that makes us immune to fears, stuns, and roots.</p><p>Maybe something that increases melee crit by something, increases attack speed, makes us immune to those.. but at the cost of us getting CA stifled (but still able to use taunts / shouts). Dunno.</p>