A simple one-step solution to fix summoners (com"pet"itive) [Archive]

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007djdeadly

05-11-2009, 10:52 PM

Solo: We are gtg.Raid: We are gtg. (I know some will debate this, but my slightly under-geared necro can keep up in raids with my slightly better-geared coercer - both fully mastered. I will leave it to the reader to decide for themselves if a coercer should be doing the same dps as a "teir 1.5" necro. But that is for another thread.)Groups: This is our real problem. Scouts do burst dps, while we have to layer our dots. One a 1+ minute raid fight, we can get all of our dots on the mob, so our dps is fine. But on a 10-20 sec group fight, our dps suffers and the scouts and other mages (particularly enchanters) blow us out of the water. This is the main reason why summoners get a bad rap. Who in their right mind invites a summoner to a TSO instance group over a scout?Solution: Make the scout pet a viable pet. This pet should do heavy front-loaded damage during the first 20 secs of the fight (i.e., 60+% of our total dps). This would make us com"pet"itive with the scouts in instance groups. Our scout pet is a scout after all, and should enjoy all the benefits scouts have seen with TSO. On longer raid fights, the scout pet's dps should drop off considerably below that of the mage pet. Thus, this fix would not unbalanced us in raids.Summary: We get a choice between burst (scout pet) and sustained (mage pet) dps. Disclaimer: Please don't hijack if you are an "outlier", doing 2k dps on raids or 15k dps in group. If this is the case, then I'm sorry or I'm envious, respectively.

Mew

05-12-2009, 10:20 AM

One problem summoners run into is the AA mirrors. For the tank pet (solo) you want to put your points into the STA line. For the mage pet you want the INT line. For the scout pet you want the AGI line. But the AA mirrors only let us to store one line. I store the STA build for soloing and the INT build for raiding/grouping. Until we can store a second AA configuration (the AGI line) the scout pet is unfeasible. It will always be gimped. We used to be able to have 2 (or more) AA mirrors that could each store its own line. Then SOE gimped it so only one AA mirror in a house would work.So, yes, increase the burst dmg in scout pets but find us a way to store that second AA configuration, also.

Davngr1

05-14-2009, 03:09 AM

<cite>007djdeadly wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solo: We are gtg.Raid: We are gtg. (I know some will debate this, but my slightly under-geared necro can keep up in raids with my slightly better-geared coercer - both fully mastered. I will leave it to the reader to decide for themselves if a coercer should be doing the same dps as a "teir 1.5" necro. But that is for another thread.)Groups: This is our real problem. Scouts do burst dps, while we have to layer our dots. One a 1+ minute raid fight, we can get all of our dots on the mob, so our dps is fine. But on a 10-20 sec group fight, our dps suffers and the scouts and other mages (particularly enchanters) blow us out of the water. This is the main reason why summoners get a bad rap. Who in their right mind invites a summoner to a TSO instance group over a scout?Solution: Make the scout pet a viable pet. This pet should do heavy front-loaded damage during the first 20 secs of the fight (i.e., 60+% of our total dps). This would make us com"pet"itive with the scouts in instance groups. Our scout pet is a scout after all, and should enjoy all the benefits scouts have seen with TSO. On longer raid fights, the scout pet's dps should drop off considerably below that of the mage pet. Thus, this fix would not unbalanced us in raids.Summary: We get a choice between burst (scout pet) and sustained (mage pet) dps. Disclaimer: Please don't hijack if you are an "outlier", doing 2k dps on raids or 15k dps in group. If this is the case, then I'm sorry or I'm envious, respectively. </blockquote>that's a cool idea and to a degree the scout pet does have a bit better burst dmg then the mage if you use gluttony on pull. the problem you're going to have with this is that with AE group content your mage will do more dmg then your scout even if the scout pet is doing more single target dmg. a better fix imo would be to add better dot dmg AA that would allow for faster up front dmg ie. faster dot ticks like soulrot and to also allow it affect limited pets ie. make them true dots. at this point most necros just want something new because most necros don't have acces to all the new raid gear and such. this is why balancing a class thru gear like devs are trying to do does not work so well for everyone.

Germs666

05-14-2009, 04:21 AM

Our mythical mage pet needs to hit harder!Ever time how long it takes to click send pet, have the pet start casting and then psst. A DoT??!!!!If our pet put up some decent damage :cough shared spell crit/dmg: and we could buff our pet similar to they way iilys/troubs buff but make them pet only spells.Then maybe we'd actually have to use or magic leashing ability instead of sending it on auto and waiting for DoTs to tick. (yawn)Or give us some direct damage nukes to cycle in our rotation!EXAMPLE: Acid Blast - direct damage, disease based.A corrosive blast of acid from the stomachs of carrion!OMG problem solvedHave you ever noticed that "damage over time" will always lag behind "damage per second"?Why give us AND our pets so many DoTS???!!!!ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

Davngr1

05-15-2009, 03:25 AM

Mew

05-15-2009, 10:54 AM

<cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Our mythical mage pet needs to hit harder!Ever time how long it takes to click send pet, have the pet start casting and then psst. A DoT??!!!!If our pet put up some decent damage :cough shared spell crit/dmg: and we could buff our pet similar to they way iilys/troubs buff but make them pet only spells.Then maybe we'd actually have to use or magic leashing ability instead of sending it on auto and waiting for DoTs to tick. (yawn)Or give us some direct damage nukes to cycle in our rotation!EXAMPLE: Acid Blast - direct damage, disease based.A corrosive blast of acid from the stomachs of carrion!OMG problem solvedHave you ever noticed that "damage over time" will always lag behind "damage per second"?Why give us AND our pets so many DoTS???!!!!ENOUGH ALREADY!!!</blockquote>It doesn't need to hit harder. The mage pet is designed for AOE encounters. The problem lies in the fact that nearly all encounters are single target. In a true AOE encounter the mage pet rocks! In single target encounters it is actually quite inefficient.Another problem necromancers have is a lack of burst damage. We live and die on DOT's. Summoners were designed to be the DOT specialists (just like there are direct healers and HOT healers) For short lived, group encounters this is a real problem for us (and our mage pets). Scout pets have more DD abilities and were meant for small groups, I believe (as opposed to raids). The better solution to this problem is:1) allow us to store two AA spec's in the AA mirrors instead of one. That way we can have an AA spec for mage pet (INT line), one for tank pet (STA line), and a third for scout pets (emphasizing the AGI line). and2) allow us the option of chosing a mage, tank or scout pet when we summon the Servant of Vazelle from our mythical.Another option is to fix dumb fire pets so they are a real pet and can benefit from our pet buffs (or make them a real DOT so they benefit from our spell buffs).

007djdeadly

05-16-2009, 01:46 AM

The mythical mage pet is fine the way it is. Buff the mage pet and then we are OP in raids.That is also why shared stats will never happen, imho. It has been asked for and ignored for far too long...we need to let this pipe dream go. Besides, they have already invested too much energy into creating an entirely new mechanic - pet gear.As far as the AA mirror issue goes, I haven't cast my tank pet since T7. The scout (pre-myth) or mage (post-myth) make for much faster soloing of solo mobs. The tank pet is just slowing you down, and has no use end game (my opinion, but to each his own). I think having to choose 2 of 3 pets to use (tank/mage or scout/mage) is necessary balance.I would LOVE to be able to use the scout pet on raids. Opens up more options for us as far as raid slots go. As it is now, the mage group has 4 mage slots (minus healer+troub). Wizard and Illusy will always get 2 of those. That then leaves 2 slots for the necro/conjy/warlock to fight for (assuming one doesn't get filled with a coercer). If the scout pet were a viable raid pet, we could then also go to the hybrid grp 4 (or maybe even the scout grp if you have some no-shows) and take advantage of scout buffs. Instantly we are no longer fighting for 2 raid lots.On a side note, if our swarm pets are killable, then they should take advantage of melee buffs (CoB, etc.), making the hybrid/scout grp an even more realistic fit. Imagine how fun/dynamic if would be having to time swarm pets with CoB, Piece of Mind, etc.

Sabutai

05-17-2009, 08:07 PM

<cite>007djdeadly wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mythical mage pet is fine the way it is. Buff the mage pet and then we are OP in raids.That is also why shared stats will never happen, imho. It has been asked for and ignored for far too long...we need to let this pipe dream go. Besides, they have already invested too much energy into creating an entirely new mechanic - pet gear.As far as the AA mirror issue goes, I haven't cast my tank pet since T7. The scout (pre-myth) or mage (post-myth) make for much faster soloing of solo mobs. The tank pet is just slowing you down, and has no use end game (my opinion, but to each his own). I think having to choose 2 of 3 pets to use (tank/mage or scout/mage) is necessary balance.I would LOVE to be able to use the scout pet on raids. Opens up more options for us as far as raid slots go. As it is now, the mage group has 4 mage slots (minus healer+troub). Wizard and Illusy will always get 2 of those. That then leaves 2 slots for the necro/conjy/warlock to fight for (assuming one doesn't get filled with a coercer). If the scout pet were a viable raid pet, we could then also go to the hybrid grp 4 (or maybe even the scout grp if you have some no-shows) and take advantage of scout buffs. Instantly we are no longer fighting for 2 raid lots.On a side note, if our swarm pets are killable, then they should take advantage of melee buffs (CoB, etc.), making the hybrid/scout grp an even more realistic fit. Imagine how fun/dynamic if would be having to time swarm pets with CoB, Piece of Mind, etc. </blockquote>First you don't understand the game mechanics if you think a necro in a scout group will be any kind of viable option, regardless if we have a pet that fits that groupAt our height of power the pet was at best doing 35% of our overall dps, taking away what gave the necro the other 65% would just be a joke and a waste of a raid slot.Second, saying we are overpowered in raids is a giant laugh. The discrepency in dps from t2/t3 geared necro to the end game geared necro is gigantic. Summarily throwing out the obvious balance mechanic which is shared stats just says you don't know what it would be to fix the class. If you gave shared stats the class could finally be balanced.The class itself isn't or will ever be designed around burst dps, only changing encounters or the way they are scripted will ever fix any group issues.

007djdeadly

05-18-2009, 12:31 PM

<cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>007djdeadly wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mythical mage pet is fine the way it is. Buff the mage pet and then we are OP in raids.That is also why shared stats will never happen, imho. It has been asked for and ignored for far too long...we need to let this pipe dream go. Besides, they have already invested too much energy into creating an entirely new mechanic - pet gear.As far as the AA mirror issue goes, I haven't cast my tank pet since T7. The scout (pre-myth) or mage (post-myth) make for much faster soloing of solo mobs. The tank pet is just slowing you down, and has no use end game (my opinion, but to each his own). I think having to choose 2 of 3 pets to use (tank/mage or scout/mage) is necessary balance.I would LOVE to be able to use the scout pet on raids. Opens up more options for us as far as raid slots go. As it is now, the mage group has 4 mage slots (minus healer+troub). Wizard and Illusy will always get 2 of those. That then leaves 2 slots for the necro/conjy/warlock to fight for (assuming one doesn't get filled with a coercer). If the scout pet were a viable raid pet, we could then also go to the hybrid grp 4 (or maybe even the scout grp if you have some no-shows) and take advantage of scout buffs. Instantly we are no longer fighting for 2 raid lots.On a side note, if our swarm pets are killable, then they should take advantage of melee buffs (CoB, etc.), making the hybrid/scout grp an even more realistic fit. Imagine how fun/dynamic if would be having to time swarm pets with CoB, Piece of Mind, etc. </blockquote>First you don't understand the game mechanics if you think a necro in a scout group will be any kind of viable option, regardless if we have a pet that fits that groupCalm down. Read my post again. I said if there were no-shows in the scout grp.At our height of power the pet was at best doing 35% of our overall dps, taking away what gave the necro the other 65% would just be a joke and a waste of a raid slot.Second, saying we are overpowered in raids is a giant laugh. The discrepency in dps from t2/t3 geared necro to the end game geared necro is gigantic. Summarily throwing out the obvious balance mechanic which is shared stats just says you don't know what it would be to fix the class. If you gave shared stats the class could finally be balanced.Calm down. Read my post again. Of course I would love shared stats. But this idea has been on the table for some time and the devs decided to go a different way. It is not going to happen. As a community we seem paralized with this "give us shared stats or give us nothing approach". And frankly all the bickering/whining (i.e., your insulting of my knowledge of game mechanics...non-constructive much?) makes it even less likely that we will get a fix.It is time for new, developer-friendly ideas. My idea my not be the best overall, but it WOULD fix us in groups, which is why the majority of necros are complaining (given that most ppl don't raid anyway). If you have other unique ideas (please don't say "shared stats!" for the 1000th time) then I promise to give them an honest criticism and not a knee-jerk, how-dare-someone-else-post-in-my-forum asinine comment. The class itself isn't or will ever be designed around burst dps, only changing encounters or the way they are scripted will ever fix any group issues.</blockquote>

Zorastiz

05-18-2009, 01:05 PM

<cite>Mewse wrote:</cite><blockquote>2) allow us the option of chosing a mage, tank or scout pet when we summon the Servant of Vazelle from our mythical.</blockquote>This one I like!On a side note to anyone that can provide advice, I just recieved my Mythical, I had all AD-3 pets and saw an increase in DPS with the Myth pet. My question is would it be worth buying the M1 Scout pet spell?There are occasions where I use or have used the scout pet in Groups and even raids so I'm thinking this may be a worthwhile upgrade!Correct me if I am wrong please.

Mew

05-18-2009, 03:07 PM

Probably not. It depends on the group. The one thing scout pets love is group-wide scout dps buffs. If your group is heavy on these and you are AGI AA spec'd then maybe...just maybe...your mythical pet can be shelved for a M1 scout pet. Remember that the mythical pet is M4! That is hard to beat. My one regret is the mage pets (like the mythical) are designed around AOE's (eg linked groups of mobs) vs single target. So, a lot of pet power gets wasted. There just aren't that many enounters with multiple targets. When you do find them the mezzer locks them down so they are immune to your AOE dmg abilities anyway. For that reason your zone-wide dps on an M1 scout might approach that of the mythical pet. But you would really have to push it and stack all the right buffs.

Sabutai

05-18-2009, 08:09 PM

<cite>007djdeadly wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>007djdeadly wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mythical mage pet is fine the way it is. Buff the mage pet and then we are OP in raids.That is also why shared stats will never happen, imho. It has been asked for and ignored for far too long...we need to let this pipe dream go. Besides, they have already invested too much energy into creating an entirely new mechanic - pet gear.As far as the AA mirror issue goes, I haven't cast my tank pet since T7. The scout (pre-myth) or mage (post-myth) make for much faster soloing of solo mobs. The tank pet is just slowing you down, and has no use end game (my opinion, but to each his own). I think having to choose 2 of 3 pets to use (tank/mage or scout/mage) is necessary balance.I would LOVE to be able to use the scout pet on raids. Opens up more options for us as far as raid slots go. As it is now, the mage group has 4 mage slots (minus healer+troub). Wizard and Illusy will always get 2 of those. That then leaves 2 slots for the necro/conjy/warlock to fight for (assuming one doesn't get filled with a coercer). If the scout pet were a viable raid pet, we could then also go to the hybrid grp 4 (or maybe even the scout grp if you have some no-shows) and take advantage of scout buffs. Instantly we are no longer fighting for 2 raid lots.On a side note, if our swarm pets are killable, then they should take advantage of melee buffs (CoB, etc.), making the hybrid/scout grp an even more realistic fit. Imagine how fun/dynamic if would be having to time swarm pets with CoB, Piece of Mind, etc. </blockquote>First you don't understand the game mechanics if you think a necro in a scout group will be any kind of viable option, regardless if we have a pet that fits that groupCalm down. Read my post again. I said if there were no-shows in the scout grp.At our height of power the pet was at best doing 35% of our overall dps, taking away what gave the necro the other 65% would just be a joke and a waste of a raid slot.Second, saying we are overpowered in raids is a giant laugh. The discrepency in dps from t2/t3 geared necro to the end game geared necro is gigantic. Summarily throwing out the obvious balance mechanic which is shared stats just says you don't know what it would be to fix the class. If you gave shared stats the class could finally be balanced.Calm down. Read my post again. Of course I would love shared stats. But this idea has been on the table for some time and the devs decided to go a different way. It is not going to happen. As a community we seem paralized with this "give us shared stats or give us nothing approach". And frankly all the bickering/whining (i.e., your insulting of my knowledge of game mechanics...non-constructive much?) makes it even less likely that we will get a fix.It is time for new, developer-friendly ideas. My idea my not be the best overall, but it WOULD fix us in groups, which is why the majority of necros are complaining (given that most ppl don't raid anyway). If you have other unique ideas (please don't say "shared stats!" for the 1000th time) then I promise to give them an honest criticism and not a knee-jerk, how-dare-someone-else-post-in-my-forum asinine comment. The class itself isn't or will ever be designed around burst dps, only changing encounters or the way they are scripted will ever fix any group issues.</blockquote></blockquote>There was no knee-jerk reaction in what I wrote. The knee-jerk is that nobody ever listens, the proponents of the devs and the devs themselves. Many of the once respected contributors of these forums have offered the shared stats fix for a long time, the continued ignoring of them has driven most to other games or other classes. The only true way to fix this class in any 'LASTING' fashion is to make the pets 100% shared stats. You can finally balance most aspects of it after that, nothing before. The pet centric gear is a joke and has only widened the overall problem. Even if the ONLY spot in the raid was the scout group, the necro would be a negative addition there over a pick up spot for an AFK bard. There is no reason to put one there. Scout pets were once a viable raiding option because they used the same auto attack mechanic players do, bringing that back won't ever happen because they don't see anything but the mage pet as a raiding mechanic, its that simple.And tbh, if you're sooooo overpowered on raids already then you really don't need help with groups. Its the people I keep advocating for which seems to be lost. The necros who fall off the dps charts cause they don't have the gear in raid are the same people who have problems getting groups because they can't close the dps gaps. You can dps properly in a scout centric group, I know cause I've done it. We need to close the gap in gear quality and really the only way to do that is to scrap this idea of pet buff gear and just fix the problem. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear and I know its not what the devs want to hear but it will fix the problem.

Germs666

05-19-2009, 04:43 AM

Which is why I want to put my fist through the monitor because they won't even admit that there is a problem and they look the other way.We NEED 100% shared pet stats! Pet gear is a noble idea but it forces us to use certain pieces of gear in which spell crit/crit bonus or spell damage is compromised for power flux/quicksilver blood.I know it probably won't happen but I know it can be done since crit mit is now shared.Having to redesign all of the pet gear and AA's sounds like a large task. Without doing so 50% shared stats might actually work as long as we get our cast times rolled back and that stupid spell damage reduction on our Lifetap removed.