Armor choice

[SystemOn]

<p>Of the two plate choices using void shards it looks as if one set is focused more on tanking and the other is more about DPS, is this correct. Sry i can't remember the two choices. Recently returned player here trying to get caught up.</p>

[therodge]

<p>teir 1</p><p>zealots</p><p>ground granite</p><p>teir 2</p><p>holy warrior</p><p>Voidknight</p><p>the zealots and voidknights are the first you wanna pick up this is the main tanking set the holy warrior set will increase dps but not by a significant enough number to make it worthy</p>

[SystemOn]

<p>Ahh, OK. Thanks therodge.</p>

[smogfire]

<p>Why not the Ground Granite with much more strength for a tank?</p>

[Kigneer]

<cite>smogfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Why not the Ground Granite with much more strength for a tank?</p><p> </p></blockquote> Because Pallies are utility tanks, and they need ALL stats and procs. Zealot's is a compromise for those playing more than a MT role. Seen those tanks decked out for MT (extremely high STR but half the AGI), and in raids are the first to go down, as they concentrated too much on strength and their other stats suck (especially resists -- show up for a raid in areas like WoE with below 8k resists is just cruising for a bruising). SoE clearly made Pallies into defensive tanks -- all those TSO abilities <em>if shield is equipped</em> isn't for 2 handers and offensive dps (a Pally would never generate enough to match the dps tanks) -- and it's because they SHOULD be the last tank left standing in case to rez the MT/healer and survive long enough to do so -- as now you're on your own without dedicated healer(s) taking on that boss/mob all yourself. Too many play Paladins like Guardians and Beserkers, but our role isn't bad or worse being defensive tanks, it's just different. Can't count how many times it's been the Pally that saved the day, because he's defensive and stacked against hits and can heal and rez in emergencies.

[Maamadex]

<p>Strength isn't exactly a reason to wear a set of armor in the first place, all tank gear has str lol. Living is more important than having max strength. I look for +parry or defense, +mitigation for desirability or, failing that, melee crit or double attack. Not how much str something has. As for never matching the dps of the offensive tanks, thats just not true. We can dps just as well as them or better depending on gear. Rezzing isn't even a primary duty if dirges or necros are alive. I honestly only rez someone if they are dead at or near my feet, rezzing has been the job of dirges for a long time now.</p>

[Kigneer]

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Strength isn't exactly a reason to wear a set of armor in the first place, all tank gear has str lol. Living is more important than having max strength. I look for +parry or defense, +mitigation for desirability or, failing that, melee crit or double attack. Not how much str something has. As for never matching the dps of the offensive tanks, thats just not true. We can dps just as well as them or better depending on gear. Rezzing isn't even a primary duty if dirges or necros are alive. I honestly only rez someone if they are dead at or near my feet, rezzing has been the job of dirges for a long time now.</p></blockquote> Actually, we'll never match dps tanks, don't care how much adorns and extras from gear as we start with a handicap of ***0*** for dps auto-attack. BTW, Dirges are also not in every group, which means the Pally is the "U" in utility. When the healer is down in the group, and the MT's health bar goes red (and the Pally doesn't have another Holy Touch for 2 minutes), you better believe you'll be right over the healer quick while spamming your other heals -- unless you prefer 7pp repair bills. Learn good habits and be flexible for ALL encounters, not just 24 man raids with 4 healers as back up. Most content will be group and solo, and a Pally that can't fulfill the multiple roles s/he is made for is a d-e-a-d Pally.

[Maamadex]

<p>Well perhaps so, being the offtank of my guild and sometimes its MT, my role is somewhat limited in the utility department. I leave the rezzing to others, and in groups I'm the Tank too so again, can't really rez people lol. Except for the odd occurence of hitting divine aura and hitting my rez heh. I heal of course but my primary job is to dps, hold aggro and be a tank. In that regard my role is very singular.</p>

[smogfire]

<p>So what armor did you choose?</p><p>That is my concern, that I tend to tank for groups that don't usual have the "optimal" members.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Zealot and voidknight, actually i only took those after i started getting T3 molds from Ward of elements, but they are good. BP and shoulders especially for tanking.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Actually, we'll never match dps tanks, don't care how much adorns and extras from gear as we start with a handicap of ***0*** for dps auto-attack. </blockquote><p>Just to point out, well-geared Paladins can and do spec for damage and can actually do fairly well. No, they're not T1 DPS but a Trample spec'd Paladin with the right gear and buffs can can put up some reasonable numbers (8-10K or more with trash mobs, etc.) against multiple encounters. Now, how well he can do that <em>and</em> tank is also largely a function of both gear and player skill.</p><p>What you're talking about, mostly a pure "defensive/omg! heal" approach to the class is really just on the lower end of the spectrum where you have to play it close to the vest. At the upper end, the playstyle changes.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>smogfire wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>That is my concern, that I tend to tank for groups that don't usual have the "optimal" members. </blockquote><p>The Void Knight armor is the tank set, I'd recommend getting the whole thing and going from there. Also get the infused jewelry that has the +parry/+defense stats on it to help with survivability. Your healer(s) will thank you.</p>

[Azurro]

<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">In my opinion as the gear you get access to improves Paladins turn much more to dps tanks out of necessity for agro control.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>There isn’t a tank in our guild that consistently out parses me including our guardian or bruiser except for our SK and I can at least give him a run for his money most nights.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>That’s in defensive stance and without Trample as I continue to use Divine Aura so I know there is room for me to grow that number if needed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span></span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Calibri;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">As the DPS of the group/raid improves Amends becomes a smaller and smaller part of our agro control solution replaced by DPS.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>There is no way a Paladin can hold agro off of multiple DPS classes doing 12-14k with Amends and taunts alone on a raid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>If I’m not doing 5-7k DPS in that situation agro control is impossible regardless of who I have amends on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>There is no easy way to pull numbers but I figure Amends contributes about 25% – 35% <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>of my overall agro on the average raid.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>DPS with a Dirge/Corecer hate buff is the rest with taunts being maybe 5%.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Calibri;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">At the low end where most of what your wearing is legendary and your running shard groups where group dps is in the 7-12k range Paladin DPS doesn’t matter.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Amends transfers enough hate along with taunts that if we are doing 1.5k we can hold agro fine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>But as the DPS goes up of everyone else, ours has to as well in order to have any chance of holding agro.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Don’t sell your Paladin short on their potential to put out some nice DPS numbers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>For awhile it wasn’t uncommon for both me and the SK to show up regularly on the top 5 DPS parse on raids.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Our Chanters and Bards have since improved their DPS significantly and that doesn’t happen as often anymore but we are still normally in the top 10.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Calibri;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">My suggestion would be go the Void Knight set and find DPS jewelry.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Anything with double attack, + attack speed, or DPS mod is ideal but remember haste doesn’t stack and you probably won’t find something with more haste then your gloves.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>A full set of the Void Knight armor along with a good shield should give you more then enough defensive abilities to tank most if not all of the heroic instances in this game with one healer freeing up the other slots for DPS gear.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>If you can upgrade that to the WOE Volcanic Knight’s gear do it.</span></span></p>

[Kigneer]

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Actually, we'll never match dps tanks, don't care how much adorns and extras from gear as we start with a handicap of ***0*** for dps auto-attack. </blockquote><p>Just to point out, well-geared Paladins can and do spec for damage and can actually do fairly well. No, they're not T1 DPS but a Trample spec'd Paladin with the right gear and buffs can can put up some reasonable numbers (8-10K or more with trash mobs, etc.) against multiple encounters. Now, how well he can do that <em>and</em> tank is also largely a function of both gear and player skill.</p><p>What you're talking about, mostly a pure "defensive/omg! heal" approach to the class is really just on the lower end of the spectrum where you have to play it close to the vest. At the upper end, the playstyle changes.</p><p> </p></blockquote> Kordan, most content in this game isn't raiding. Most content is grouping and soloing. Because there's just 6 slots available (and too often not filled) players who do play regularly (not just PuGs) if they want to do more than trash mobs, they have to be able to play their character to the fullest. Was in WoE the other day, and despite dedicated healers, I lost count how many times I healed and rezzed the MT/OT and even the healers while still fighting the target. This worked fine as the healers could just heal (that is one ugly instance!). When the healers' group/target rez is down, or the healers that can't rez in combat are your only healer in your group, to survive you WILL have to step up to the plate and save the day or wipe. BTW, there are also dungeons/instances where Trample has to be turned off (no fun with it "accidently" auto-attacking an epic). Which basically handicaps a Pally's offensive attacks (SoE truly hates Paladins).

[Kigneer]

<cite>smogfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So what armor did you choose?</p><p>That is my concern, that I tend to tank for groups that don't usual have the "optimal" members.</p><p> </p></blockquote> Zealot's to Void. Don't like the STR and AGI hit with these in T1, but if you're starting to crawl through WoE and other areas where you need high resists and spell damage, that +44 WIS and +44 INT per piece will become sorely needed (remember Consecrate/Smite Evil/Refusal of Atonement are the Pally's highest damage spells and more reliable than an auto-attack even at 50% -- and yes being in a group that's not raider spec or with mythicals, this will be the most powerful hit a Pally will make. Until you're geared up with T2+ [plus fabled drops], your spells will be your main source of "dps"). Finding that WIS is a lot more important in TSO, where high resists become essential, let alone having power (and in groups without power transfer -- if you run in such a group constantly as they're friends/guildies -- you may have to trade off some fighting abilities for power regen jewellry just to keep up). Without a Dirge in the group I'm burning through Goblin totems and that freaking Manastone to have at least 50% power running through the dungeons, as there's no time to power up fully.

[smogfire]

<p>Thank you everyone for the explainations of the choices.  I was hoping I would find people who have already put a great deal of thought into this.</p><p>I already have my Solo AA spec in my mirror but still need to make a group or raid spec.</p><p>What lines are good choices to go with the Zealots /  Void Armor choice?</p><p>The RoK MT/OT spec from here?  <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin_AA_Guide">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin_AA_Guide</a></p>

[Maamadex]

<p>STR STA INT is the basic way to go for tanking, only difference would be making room for trample, but i personally like divine aura for some situations. Hero and Wraths in Paladin, support is something you could leave off til later and get some Shadow AA's.</p><p>And Kigneer I just don't agree with you at all, the type of play you are describing, about playing something to its fullest. It doesn't sounds like you are necessary playing to its fullest, it sounds like you are trying to make up for a terrible Raid Setup or group setup. I have lots of friends, but we realize most successful fights are determined by nothing more than having the right class in a group. Like for WoE, 4 healers, 1 or 2 tanks, a dirge, trouby, couple enchanters, and high dps. If you don't gots something like that life is gonna suck and something like you describe will occur. You should be commended for doing it, but you "play to your fullest" because things aren't at their fullest to begin with it seems to me.</p>

[smogfire]

<p>What Shadow AA's are good for a Paly</p><p>It seems like you need alot to get down to the rows that matter.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>If you have higher than 120, Battle hardening and either Enhance Rescue or maybe offensive prowess under fighter along with Sneering Assault under fighter. Phalanx and Knight's stance under crusader, and aura of the crusader .Those are pretty good aa's. I also took valor in battle. Then fill support up again til 170's.</p>

[Kigneer]

<cite>smogfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What Shadow AA's are good for a Paly</p><p>It seems like you need alot to get down to the rows that matter.</p><p> </p><p> </p></blockquote> TSO instances: STR all the way down -- this is to ensure your spell reuse and recovery is fast. There often isn't time to wait for the spells to come back up before repops. Spells are important now, as your auto-attack and melee AE won't be high enough to rely on them. Unlike RoK instances, you'll find areas where you have to even turn off Trample, which eliminates that advantage. So balance your spell reuse time and crits with dps (higher auto-attack damage) + auto-attack + melee crit. AGI to Trample -- for mob control, that extra killing boost (and faster attack), and Joust to get to a squishy before a monster eats him/her. STA to Melee Crits -- when you finally get your fabled and mythical swords melee crits really shine. INT to Spell Crits -- you want Consecrate/Smite Evil/Refusal of Atonement to hit with as much max damage as possible (have Consecrate at Grandmaster level, as for an emergency "oh crap" spell it's second to none [especially with a bad pull]). On a side note: if you use the bow for more than a distance taunt and/or playing OT/Utility/Support, you will also be looking for ranged bonus stats. For the shard T2 line, that would be the Tactician's jewellry (dps/spell crits/melee crits/range crits).

[Kigneer]

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And Kigneer I just don't agree with you at all, the type of play you are describing, about playing something to its fullest. It doesn't sounds like you are necessary playing to its fullest, it sounds like you are trying to make up for a terrible Raid Setup or group setup.</p></blockquote> I'm a realist, as you won't always have XYZ available and will have to do with what you have (or not play). Self-sufficiency is what I opt for, not wasting time in guild or public chat crying for "something to do" as that "perfect" group makeup that isn't available at 3am (which is what happens with these "playing to the fullest" MT types, when their Illy, chain healer, dirge and whatever isn't online). Not wasting time waiting for groups to form; wiping because "you're suppose to play XYZ ". Learned to wing anything for any situation, and to make up for problem areas as even the best raider has their sore points. In short, I'm there to make the impossible possible (as I really get tired of the crying that a group can't finish without the optimal setup -- takes forever to get a group together, and just to watch them fold because they're specced for optimal groups is c-r-a-p). So I will disagree with your viewpoint, because I play to play, not cry and wait.

[Maamadex]

<p>Yeah what Kigneer suggested is pretty spot on for crusader, i have a trample spec on my mirror I just love Divine Aura so I keep that in my main spec, Str all the way Sta all the way and Spell crits and a bit in heal crit. Main question is, how many aa's you have? I love the shadow stuff but only if i have that crusader spec, hero and wraths.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Was in WoE the other day, and despite dedicated healers, I lost count how many times I healed and rezzed the MT/OT and even the healers while still fighting the target. This worked fine as the healers could just heal (that is one ugly instance!). When the healers' group/target rez is down, or the healers that can't rez in combat are your only healer in your group, to survive you WILL have to step up to the plate and save the day or wipe. BTW, there are also dungeons/instances where Trample has to be turned off (no fun with it "accidently" auto-attacking an epic). Which basically handicaps a Pally's offensive attacks (SoE truly hates Paladins).</blockquote><p>Frankly, if you're rezzing <em>anyone</em> in a raid, then that is fail. That's the job that your dirges should be doing (and if you're raiding without dirges, then that too is fail). Honestly, if the MT was dying so many times that you lost count, then either you need a properly geared MT, or those healers need to learn how to push their buttons (and healing is only part of their job). While I can see squishys getting plowed by the trash dots on occasion, there's absolutely no reason for them to let the MT die unless he's seriously undergeared or just doesn't know what he's doing and is overpulling, etc.</p><p>And yes, there's instances (Necrotic Asylum for example) where you need to be careful with AE autoattacks; but SOE doesn't hate Paladins in that regard anymore than they do Swashbucklers with Hurricane. It's just part of playing smartly and adjusting to the requirements of the zone.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Thats just it tho Kigneer, you assume I wait. I don't, the people I play with have alts they level for just that purpose. I have a rather good mystic too for the same reason. All I mean is you consider taking an inferior setup somewhere and being utility is something wonderful. I am one of the best tanks my guildies have met, and I do think of myself as playing to my full potential.</p><p>As a side note, the AE dots from those trash can be perfectly avoided by just interrupting the epic on the pull. Wait for him to cast and cast either yours, or have someone else hit theirs. Actually just tell everyone to interrupt them. Boom no ae no deaths <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> Try it sometime, we have a couple interrupts. CoB is good for it or even a brig or somebody sticking by you and doing theirs. Its rather handy, last run through there I had no AE's at all hit the raid. I love using decree and i make sure i'm in offensive. [Removed for Content] resists!</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>As a side note, the AE dots from those trash can be perfectly avoided by just interrupting the epic on the pull. Wait for him to cast and cast either yours, or have someone else hit theirs. Actually just tell everyone to interrupt them. Boom no ae no deaths <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> Try it sometime, we have a couple interrupts. CoB is good for it or even a brig or somebody sticking by you and doing theirs. Its rather handy, last run through there I had no AE's at all hit the raid. I love using decree and i make sure i'm in offensive. [Removed for Content] resists!</blockquote><p>Typically it's bow-pull and hit with Decree, but I swear to the gods that thing is almost always resisted. Guardians get an interrupt tied to their taunt, so that makes things a bit easier for them. But even if you don't interrupt, if players can't self-cure that and/or healers clear the rest, then back to remedial raiding 101 for them.</p><p>I think that where some people run afoul of WoE is they basically think of it like it is (or should be) a casual group instance for 12 people. Now, it's definitely nowhere close to a TSO x4 raiding zone, but you still do actually have to think about how the raid is built, the classes being used and people should still come prepared -- potions, signets, all that good stuff.</p>

[Kigneer]

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Frankly, if you're rezzing <em>anyone</em> in a raid, then that is fail. That's the job that your dirges should be doing (and if you're raiding without dirges, then that too is fail).</p></blockquote> There you go again -- optimal groups and still speaking about Raids (that's all you compare anything with, when MOST content in EQ2 is group and solo orientated). I may raid a couple times a week, the rest is in groups or soloing (and if you've seen my tradeskill thread, you can see how time consuming THAT is!). At the time I play the game IF you can find a Dirge you're one lucky person. IF you can find a healer, more so. The folks in question have said they don't have the picture perfect group, and thus they have to compensate. Anything else is information that will lead to EPIC FAILURE for them. Been there, done that, and Raid profiles for group/soloing = death sentence, as you don't have 4 healers keeping your butt up. So drop this "Fail" junk, as the failure here is not understanding how the EQ2 works outside the Raid bubble -- <strong>let alone reading the spec requests carefully</strong>.

[Kigneer]

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Thats just it tho Kigneer, you assume I wait. I don't, the people I play with have alts they level for just that purpose.</p></blockquote> Does EQ2 revolve around you, Maamadex? Do you realize there's 1,000,000 other accounts? Do you realize folks play after 12am EST? Do you realize folks like playing with friends/family/guildies? Apparently not, as the FAIL here is not even reading the spec requests, but mouthing what your ideal is. Folks have their own ideals. Side note for those reading this and those not wanting to grind 3x a week for 3hrs a night not including spying and dying for avatars only to work like a mouse in a maze (ever wonder why there's so few raid guilds and those that exist have high turnovers??): Play the game to your play style. It may not be perfect, it may not have every perfect class, but if you're enjoying your group and having fun, spec accordingly to it (especially true for consistent nightly groups of friends and/or family). If that means your AAs will look differently than raiders, mine or anyone else, so be it. Just compensate for your group to keep alive. In groups Paladins will do more than just tank, YOU WILL REZ AND HEAL (something full time raiders forget) even if there's a healer in the group, as often one healer isn't enough, if you're going for better drops/names/content. Ran with the best raiders on the server, and sure enough I was rezzing and healing be it a group/raidx2/raidx4. EQ2 is a game, it's entertainment, enjoy it that's the bottom line.

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Frankly, if you're rezzing <em>anyone</em> in a raid, then that is fail. That's the job that your dirges should be doing (and if you're raiding without dirges, then that too is fail).</p></blockquote>There you go again -- optimal groups and still speaking about Raids (that's all you compare anything with, when MOST content in EQ2 is group and solo orientated). I may raid a couple times a week, the rest is in groups or soloing (and if you've seen my tradeskill thread, you can see how time consuming THAT is!). At the time I play the game IF you can find a Dirge you're one lucky person. IF you can find a healer, more so. The folks in question have said they don't have the picture perfect group, and thus they have to compensate. Anything else is information that will lead to EPIC FAILURE for them. Been there, done that, and Raid profiles for group/soloing = death sentence, as you don't have 4 healers keeping your butt up. So drop this "Fail" junk, as the failure here is not understanding how the EQ2 works outside the Raid bubble -- <strong>let alone reading the spec requests carefully</strong>.</blockquote><p>Uh, <strong>you</strong> were the one that brought up Ward of Elements, which is a raid zone. If you're trying to run WoE without bards, then yes, I'm afraid that is setting yourself up for failure. Just like trying to run it without a shaman for wards, or without enough DPS. So my response was to you, not to the OP.</p><p>And what the heck are you talking about with "raid profiles for group/soloing"? If you have a raid geared toon, you don't need to have "4 healers keeping your butt up". If you're just a legendary tank, you <em>might</em> need 2 healers, depending on how good they are/aren't and how well you play.</p><p>I'm perfectly aware of how EQ2 works in groups, and aside from a small number of instances (YOS, PoF, EA) there's absolutely no reason that a Paladin in his T2 Void Knight armor should need more than one competent healer in the group.</p><p>Edit: You seem to have this vision of the Paladin as some kind of plate armored rez/heal bot who's job is to stand around throwing (weak) wards and single/group heals, or humping corpses with our no-range rez. If that's what makes you feel useful in a group, then go for it. But, Paladins are first and foremost <strong><em>tanks</em></strong>, not a support class. The ward, heals and rez are fine, but it is not, and should not, be considered our primary function. If I'm having to heal alot just to keep myself and the rest of the group up, that only tells me one thing: the healer I have with me is slack, and won't be grouping with me again.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Kordran i hate the fact that our interrupts get resisted heh thats why I said have everyone try, I get my skills up to max if i can then wait then hit it. I usually have a brig with me doing it and someone else but I swear to god it does work.</p><p>As for you Kigneer. No it doesn't revolve around me, and yes people have limited time. Thats why you pick the right people to do a job in a limited time frame. You can choose to be how you are, I really don't care i was just attempting to give an alternate point of view which is vastly better than yours. I did commend you, and I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings.</p><p>And all i'm saying is I concur with Kordran, we are tanks, thats what we are. If you like being utility play a bard, or a healer.</p>

[Kigneer]

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Frankly, if you're rezzing <em>anyone</em> in a raid, then that is fail. That's the job that your dirges should be doing (and if you're raiding without dirges, then that too is fail).</p></blockquote>There you go again -- optimal groups and still speaking about Raids (that's all you compare anything with, when MOST content in EQ2 is group and solo orientated). I may raid a couple times a week, the rest is in groups or soloing (and if you've seen my tradeskill thread, you can see how time consuming THAT is!). At the time I play the game IF you can find a Dirge you're one lucky person. IF you can find a healer, more so. The folks in question have said they don't have the picture perfect group, and thus they have to compensate. Anything else is information that will lead to EPIC FAILURE for them. Been there, done that, and Raid profiles for group/soloing = death sentence, as you don't have 4 healers keeping your butt up. So drop this "Fail" junk, as the failure here is not understanding how the EQ2 works outside the Raid bubble -- <strong>let alone reading the spec requests carefully</strong>.</blockquote><p>Uh, <strong>you</strong> were the one that brought up Ward of Elements, which is a raid zone. If you're trying to run WoE without bards, then yes, I'm afraid that is setting yourself up for failure. Just like trying to run it without a shaman for wards, or without enough DPS. So my response was to you, not to the OP.</p><p>And what the heck are you talking about with "raid profiles for group/soloing"? If you have a raid geared toon, you don't need to have "4 healers keeping your butt up". If you're just a legendary tank, you <em>might</em> need 2 healers, depending on how good they are/aren't and how well you play.</p><p>I'm perfectly aware of how EQ2 works in groups, and aside from a small number of instances (YOS, PoF, EA) there's absolutely no reason that a Paladin in his T2 Void Knight armor should need more than one competent healer in the group.</p><p>Edit: You seem to have this vision of the Paladin as some kind of plate armored rez/heal bot who's job is to stand around throwing (weak) wards and single/group heals, or humping corpses with our no-range rez. If that's what makes you feel useful in a group, then go for it. But, Paladins are first and foremost <strong><em>tanks</em></strong>, not a support class. The ward, heals and rez are fine, but it is not, and should not, be considered our primary function. If I'm having to heal alot just to keep myself and the rest of the group up, that only tells me one thing: the healer I have with me is slack, and won't be grouping with me again.</p></blockquote> I brought WoE up as an example why WIS and resists are important to TSO content -- READ why don't you! Secondly, all raid geared and profiled toons need healers to back them up. Every single raid leader let alone member of a raid guild I seen depends on them. I don't care if they have 16k health, 1000+k STR and STA, they can't stay up without a healer -- they go down like anyone else. You want to know why? They're too busy playing their profile among themselves to do more than just killing and breaking things. They rather wipe than rez their own healer. Is that healthy behavior for a group that MT is leading? Hell, no. So if you're a Paladin who plays any role but MT, you guys ridicule it to no end. BUT if you group and group often, you WILL be playing MORE than a MT -- and that's a fact jack. My view of a Paladin is definitely not your assumption (one that seems epidemic among raiders, like they're programmed bots to think only one way). A Pally is the "U" in utility, if you're not playing a Paladin to it's fullest capabilities, go roll a Guardian or Beserker and play their roles.

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I brought WoE up as an example why WIS and resists are important to TSO content -- READ why don't you! </blockquote><p>I don't think I'm the one here who's hard of reading, but whatever. My point stands: the Paladin should be the last one in a raid (or group) rezzing people; they have more important things to be doing, like holding aggro on the mob. Personally, I've never played my Paladin in any kind of a pure support role; I'm either the MT or OT in groups/raids. But that's just me. Like I said, if healing and rezzing is your thing, then by all means, do what's fun for ya.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Yeah, whatever floats your boat Kigneer, and btw I don't play my toon like a zerker or guardian. I play it like...like a...Paladin? I've backup healed on the odd encounter, rezzed people, done all that junk. I just have always thought saying we are utility is bogus. Yeah we can do it but when I actually want to do all of that (minus tanking) is play my mystic. He can do it better. People who really are utility or healers can always do it better than us. I was just giving a counterpoint to what you are saying, and something quite a few paladins believe as well I'm sure.</p>

[Leonardo]

<blockquote><p>Since nobody has mentioned it, I will, this game is much about (how quick you can kill the mob with minimum healers and/or tanks). Survivibility is no longer an issue. I think people want to kill the boss in less than 1 minute due to the fact they don't want to sit there all day like they would in EQ1. Going to break down the basics of each class and then tell you how it is.</p><p>Guardian(Warrior)- Able to use any style of weapon (i.e.: dual wield, two handed, sword, spear and shield) and armor class. You're function is to be able to singlely hold mobs from your group. You have the overall best defense and highest natural health out of the rest of tanks.</p><p>Berserker(Warrior)- Like Guardians, able to use any style of weapon and armor, however you focus more on group mobs and dealing out dps while sacrificing health. You don't have nearly as great defense as a guardian does but you make up for it in offense.</p><p>Paladin(Crusader)- You're a hybrid class between a Guardian-Templar. You almost utilize everything a guardian can use expect dual wield. Your natural health isn't as high as a berserker or guardian, however, with your clerical abilities puts you up within them. As a Paladin, you specialize in DEFENSIVE abilities. Like a guardian, you focus on single target mobs. You're granted buffs, healing, and other fighter/cleric abilities. This gives you an edge over the warriors by being able to last longer due to healing and buffs. Survivibility is your strength.</p><p>Shadow Knight(Crusader)- You're a hybrid class between a guardian/berserker-necromancer. You almost utilize everything a guardian can use expect dual wield. Your natural health isn't as high as a guardian or berseker, however you do have some necromancer abilities that increase your health slightly, not vast like a paladin. You specialize in OFFENSIVE combat. Your means to destroy your target as quick as possible, survivibility is not the question for you. You also focus more on AoE controlling of targets.</p><p>(sorry about the brawlers, i have a 47 monk and really still don't know the purpose of them)</p><p>Bruiser(Brawler)- Offensive purposes</p><p>Monk(Brawler)- Defensive purposes</p><p>I know that's quite lacking for monks but thats how I really see them two. Now to put it into perspective.</p><p>Guardian's are suppose to be the best tank. However, each raid setup can maximize which tank can be the best. The way the trend is going its looking like this.</p><p>Paladin/Guardian- Best Defensive Tanks, high hps, and can take spike damage.</p><p>Shadow Knight/Berserker- Best Offensive Tanks, Medicore hps, dish out quick dps hits, need to be geared for spike damage.</p><p>Monk/Bruiser- I truly believe you guys shouldn't be classified as tanks. Unless they fix the avoidance for you guys to make it realistic to what you guys specialize in which is avoidance then you shouldn't be in this section.</p><p>To answer in response to the two handed question. Yes, two handers have pretty much gone bye bye, because we, the ppl of eq2, made it that way by showing that you have to pretty much go sword and shield and SOE not giving ANY avoidance or mit bonuses (like they did in EQ1) to the two handers. However, two handers were suppose to be for your crusaders/other fighters, not tanking! YOU DONT want to be using a two hander equip on your MT. Shadow Knights will out dps any of the fighters, a paladin will outlive any of the fighters, a guardian will take hits better, and berserker well, middle of guardian and sk i guess. You guys really need to think about the class specifics instead of crying for something to be equal. Each class will be better at something and thats a fact, now how you want to do it is your choice.</p><p>I'm a 80 paladin, MT for (For The People Alliance) and I have no problems whatsoever tanking. When they do bring two handers back, [Removed for Content] straight I want to be outdpsing or dpsing as a berserker/guardian using dual wield. Only purpose for dual wield was to more defensive bonus and slight dps than a two hander. Your two hander was suppose to be the ultimate form of DPS as a fighter.</p></blockquote><p>Paladins are defensive classes, I'm so sick of you people concerning about dps, I am the MT on Antonia bayle for For The People pushing only about 4.5k possibly 5k sometimes. However, I stay alive because I know what gear I need and I hold agro very well. That being said, MAXIMIZE YOUR DEFENSIVE ABILITIES, don't try to excel at unless you are able to, if you have the potential to maximize defense DO IT! That is your main role!</p><p>What I have so far, however; I haven't been in game since June 8th of 2009 since I'm currently in Japan visiting my wife before I head to S.Korea</p><p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=110502104">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=110502104</a></p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Where in god's name did you get that from? I don't think anyone said forsake your tanking ability for dps. As far as that goes, I maximize my defense with one set of armor/jewelry for tough encounters and i have another set for dps and easy tanking. You don't always have to maximize your defense. Thats ridiculous.</p>

[Kordran]

<p>Yes, Paladins were designed as a primarily defensive tank class, but that doesn't mean they're a one-trick pony and that's all that they can do. On any given raid night, I can switch from being the MT to OT to 3T/MA depending on the zones that we're hitting. This is why virtually every class of tank carries multiple sets of gear, some for defense, some for offense, and some resist gear. Flexibility and gearing appropriately is the name of the game.</p><p>If you're doing Zarrakon, then yeah, that's one thing. But when running through SoH? For myself, that's when the DPS gear comes on, and it's party time with mass pulls through the zone. That's why blanket statements about how one should or should not gear/play just don't work -- not every T8 raid zone is the same, not every raid mob has the same level of difficulty.</p>

[Leonardo]

<p>First I'm speaking about TSO content. That is what the whole original post was about. Yes previous tier you can throw on the DPS gear because its not up to the difficult that we're dealing with. However, there are people out there that don't understand the Paladin role and get [Removed for Content] about how come a shadow knight or a berserker is out dpsing them. Their roles are completely different than ours.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>I throw on the dps gear and go full offensive often, its just a balance. I don't care if someone is outparsing me, but if I'm in a situation where I can get my DA, Melee crit, CA dmg and dps as high as possible, along with skills, I do so. I do it in almost every instance I tank. I won't do it if i think i'll get myself killed or someone else, I do it because its really the most efficient thing i can do. And its fun. When I'm tanking xebnok i don't do it lol or something else that requires taking hits. Then I toss on all the defensive gear and try to be a brick wall. Just seems silly if i can bump my dps up to 7k+ why not do it heh, if i'm not getting holes punched in me.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Leonardo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First I'm speaking about TSO content. That is what the whole original post was about. Yes previous tier you can throw on the DPS gear because its not up to the difficult that we're dealing with. However, there are people out there that don't understand the Paladin role and get [Removed for Content] about how come a shadow knight or a berserker is out dpsing them. Their roles are completely different than ours.</p></blockquote><p>Well, not to pick nits, but SoH and VP aren't a "previous tier", they're simply the previous expansion. Regardless, even if it's just TSO, why in the world would you go defensive for the trash in Tomb, Palace or Stronghold? Heck, you don't <em>want</em> to go defensive if you're doing Yzlak or off-tanking for Tyrannus, for example. And really, there's no reason to go defensive up to Gynok in Tomb. Yes, they're raid mobs, but they're not that hard.</p><p>I'll say it again, Paladins aren't one-trick ponies. The class has its strengths and weaknesses, and yes they're designed to be primarily defensive tanks, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing they are and the only way they should be geared and played.</p><p>Being a good tank doesn't mean you throw on every piece of defensive gear you have and squat in defensive stance; it means finding the right balance so that you're able to do your job, while still contributing as much DPS as reasonably possible based on the content that you're doing. Heck, I have healers <em>ask</em> me to put on my choker and jewel because otherwise they get bored with nothing to really heal on trash fights.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>My healers do the same thing Kordran, put on that jewel and stuff, we're bored over here lol. If my health isn't moving and everything is peachy, I'm gonna go dps and hit the mobs like they owe me child support.</p>

[Kigneer]

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Being a good tank doesn't mean you throw on every piece of defensive gear you have and squat in defensive stance; it means finding the right balance so that you're able to do your job, while still contributing as much DPS as reasonably possible based on the content that you're doing. Heck, I have healers <em>ask</em> me to put on my choker and jewel because otherwise they get bored with nothing to really heal on trash fights.</p></blockquote> And that's a problem with the game mechanics. You rolled a character that can self-heal, and is a defensive tank, your job isn't to have healers keeping you up like a Guardian. If you have to play another role (i.e., a Guardian without the heals to keep himself up) there's a problem. I really don't care about dps with a Paladin (yeah, it would be sweet if we had more, but if we did we would be o-v-e-r powered beyond belief), anyone but anyone knows they don't put out much of a hit. They do know they have AoEs and usually the last standing in a fight (and with rez can take a otherwise wipe and turn it around). WoW destroyed MMORPGs when the concept of playing a character is now solely about gear and dps. The ADVENTURE isn't there anymore, let alone the story or why we roll characters to develop. I play a knight in shining armor, that fairy tale holy warrior -- not some cussing, dirty killing machine some make this class to be.

[Kordran]

<p>I guess we're at just different places with the game. I've already stopped and smelled the roses, etc. Right now, I play the game primarily to raid; at this point, there's very little gear I'm even interested in heroic zones because I have the decent fabled pieces that I can use as placeholders and the legendary loot is vendor trash. So for me, everything boils down to performance, dealing with the mechanics of the class as it is, not what it's supposed to be in terms of lore and all that good stuff.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you shouldn't play the class your way; I'm just saying that it's not my way. My only criteria for this game is whether high-end raiding remains fun and challenging on my Paladin. If it does, I'll stick around. If it doesn't, then I'm off to something else.</p>