The Ydal and the Ewer of Sul'Dae [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Garnaf

05-11-2009, 03:20 AM

That description flies in the face of EVERYTHING we know about Dark Elven history and Innoruuk in general. Innoruuk has been (thus far) unable to truly "birth" a race from nothing unlike practically every other deity, instead Innoruuk converts members of other races (Ykesha Trolls, the original King and Queen Thex, and a few individuals here and there). Innoruuk's hate has always been a 'corrupting' influence, unable to take independant form.The fact that the 'first' dark elves were after the fall of the Silent City seem odd to me, I always thought Innoruuk snatched up the first king and queen fairly shortly after they were placed on Norrath and started the process then.I always did take Anashti's banishment not as punishment for creating the Ewer, but as punishment for being a 'Good' goddess and performing such an evil act as creating the undead. (Though the act's intent wasn't evil, the result can be argued to be little except evil). Basically she was exiled for an extreme alignment violation, not for the Ewer itself. (Not unlike how a Paladin in Pre-4E D&D can lose their powers for an evil act, wether they did it of their own free will or not) Of course that's just how I interpreted the events, that doesn't illustrate an absolute truth of the events.Ever since EQ1 though Innoruuk has always been portrayed as one of the source gods of the undead, him using the Ewer is far from supprising. (He cursed all of Guk, made a deal with Venril Sathir in exchange for the secret of Lichdom, is generally considered to be the 'source' of Shadowknight's necromantic powers, made a deal with Miragul for the secret of Lichdom [he does that a lot, it seems EVERY lich made a deal with Inny at some point])

Maergoth

05-11-2009, 03:50 AM

She didn't try and create undead, she tried to give them immortality. The act of creating the ewer which, when used properly would grant the tremendous power of vampirism to mortals is a big deal. Rodcet did the same thing on his home planet with the Panaceae cure. They misused the ewer obviously, whereas D'morte used it correctly. He didn't suffer the zombie-like results that the citizens of the city did.Also, where does it say that inny corrupted trolls? I was under the impression that he created trolls himself, they are awefully close to him in appearance. If you're referring to the beta lore / fan fiction about their creation, I don't think that counts <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I was speaking about the other gods letting him use the ewer, as overpowered as it has been in the past. Keep in mind though, being a lich has nothing to do with being a vampire.. and Bertox is the god of decay and advocate of the whole walking zombie thing.

Rezikai

05-11-2009, 04:24 AM

<cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>That description flies in the face of EVERYTHING we know about Dark Elven history and Innoruuk in general. Innoruuk has been (thus far) unable to truly "birth" a race from nothing unlike practically every other deity, instead Innoruuk converts members of other races (Ykesha Trolls, the original King and Queen Thex, and a few individuals here and there). Innoruuk's hate has always been a 'corrupting' influence, unable to take independant form.The fact that the 'first' dark elves were after the fall of the Silent City seem odd to me, I always thought Innoruuk snatched up the first king and queen fairly shortly after they were placed on Norrath and started the process then.I always did take Anashti's banishment not as punishment for creating the Ewer, but as punishment for being a 'Good' goddess and performing such an evil act as creating the undead. (Though the act's intent wasn't evil, the result can be argued to be little except evil). Basically she was exiled for an extreme alignment violation, not for the Ewer itself. (Not unlike how a Paladin in Pre-4E D&D can lose their powers for an evil act, wether they did it of their own free will or not) Of course that's just how I interpreted the events, that doesn't illustrate an absolute truth of the events.Ever since EQ1 though Innoruuk has always been portrayed as one of the source gods of the undead, him using the Ewer is far from supprising. (He cursed all of Guk, made a deal with Venril Sathir in exchange for the secret of Lichdom, is generally considered to be the 'source' of Shadowknight's necromantic powers, made a deal with Miragul for the secret of Lichdom [he does that a lot, it seems EVERY lich made a deal with Inny at some point])</blockquote>Actually we discussed this in befallen.lore earlier tonight. We thought it might be how (if the PnP lore about the Invasion of Hate from Tahish`Hiz is considered canon) the "First Born" were "twisted"... as thats all it ever really stated is that those Elddar Elven legions were "Twisted and corrupted" while in the plane of Hate by Innoruuk and the 1st 2 Teir`Dal, Naythox and Cristanos.oh.. and i decided to find the rest of collection and the names.. one in particular i found interesting.<img src="http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f52/darkmoon_legion/EQ2_001432-1.jpg" width="1022" height="779" />P.S ... I thought Cazic created the trolls... Inny was worshiped by a sect of trolls that had a civil war w/the majority of the troll race.

Cusashorn

05-11-2009, 08:24 AM

Cazic Thule did create the Trolls, actually. I asked Vhalen about this personally.

teddyboy4

05-11-2009, 08:48 AM

That is a [Removed for Content] interesting find, and bit of lore on those items.It's times like this when Vhalen's abscence is really felt, and he is missed most. This is exactly the kind of thread he used to pop into to and, almost always cryptically, shed some light on our finds.Oh, one last thing before I retire to bed, I can't resist....that decription seems to take pains to note that the Ydal were the FIRST Dark Elven race, not THE Dark Elven race as we know them today. I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that Inny may have tried a couple time to create his own race before he finally got it "right" and kidnapped the Thex's from Takish'Hiz. I personally don't think that this is the method used to create THE Dark Elves as every mortal that drinks from the ewer will be granted immortality in some way....undeath/zombism (yeah, I made zombism up), vampirism, etc....although, when you think about it, we don't know if current Cristanos and Naythox are THE Cristanos and Naythox that were pulled from Takish'Hiz, or if they just take those names upon accension to the throne. So, maybe this is part of how Inny corrupted them, and that's why they are so long lived, and possibly why Cristanos has the power she does.Also, very, very interesting that one of the Talismans is the Talisman of Mystmyr...maybe this is where Mistmoore came from, he was one of the original dark elves...not THE Dark Elves we know today, but the first dark elves, these Ydal, and Mayong is the only one left. In fact....that kind of makes Mayong Mistmoore's original model in EQ make a bit more sense, the Maestro of Rancor always looked, to me at least, a bit closer to what Inny's model looks like in EQ2, kind of a Troll and a Dark Elf mixed, and these Talisman's say that the Ydal shared their creators appearance and powers...maybe over time Mayong Mistmoore learned how to shape his appearance a bit, and he really used to look a lot more like Inny, but he choose to make himself look more like the modern Dark Elves so he could fit in with modern Norrathian society more. It's also known that Mayong seems to have access to the Plane of Hate as he is said to have travelled there during the abscence of the gods to retriece an artifact(s) of some sort, maybe one, or all of these, are the artifact(s) he went there for. And even more interestingly, maybe he was able to travel to the Plane of Hate during the gods abscence b/c he has some of Inny's power...that could also explain many of his other abilities, and knowledge, and how he was able to Ascend to the godhood so easily....he already has some divinity...in his blood. Wow, the possibilities.....In any case, this is very interesting stuff, I can't wait to find out more about it.

Rezikai

05-11-2009, 11:36 AM

I went back and researched the Libant names from an earlier thread, the names were..VashotaRajadeviYciidBechoiLubeshAccording to some old tales, these are names of some of the first vampire clans. - RaphaNone of them are called Ydal,.. but then until the recent expac i had never heard of any of these names either. So the theories are plausible imo until we get better evidence, i know is the the Ankh of Ydal did scar Mayongs face, as a raid tank in t7.. i can say w/out a doubt that scar is still on his cheek.( i also think its there on his cheek on the quest version of him when you beat Trakanon and return to the moppet shop to give him the Chelsith Stone... and foretellingly enough he is dual weilding a Claymore and a Soulfire reward on each hip....*coughs*)<cite>Eandiil@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is a [Removed for Content] interesting find, and bit of lore on those items.It's times like this when Vhalen's abscence is really felt, and he is missed most. This is exactly the kind of thread he used to pop into to and, almost always cryptically, shed some light on our finds.Oh, one last thing before I retire to bed, I can't resist....that decription seems to take pains to note that the Ydal were the FIRST Dark Elven race, not THE Dark Elven race as we know them today. I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that Inny may have tried a couple time to create his own race before he finally got it "right" and kidnapped the Thex's from Takish'Hiz. I personally don't think that this is the method used to create THE Dark Elves as every mortal that drinks from the ewer will be granted immortality in some way....undeath/zombism (yeah, I made zombism up), vampirism, etc....although, when you think about it, we don't know if current Cristanos and Naythox are THE Cristanos and Naythox that were pulled from Takish'Hiz, or if they just take those names upon accension to the throne. So, maybe this is part of how Inny corrupted them, and that's why they are so long lived, and possibly why Cristanos has the power she does.Also, very, very interesting that one of the Talismans is the Talisman of Mystmyr...maybe this is where Mistmoore came from, he was one of the original dark elves...not THE Dark Elves we know today, but the first dark elves, these Ydal, and Mayong is the only one left. In fact....that kind of makes Mayong Mistmoore's original model in EQ make a bit more sense, the Maestro of Rancor always looked, to me at least, a bit closer to what Inny's model looks like in EQ2, kind of a Troll and a Dark Elf mixed, and these Talisman's say that the Ydal shared their creators appearance and powers...maybe over time Mayong Mistmoore learned how to shape his appearance a bit, and he really used to look a lot more like Inny, but he choose to make himself look more like the modern Dark Elves so he could fit in with modern Norrathian society more. It's also known that Mayong seems to have access to the Plane of Hate as he is said to have travelled there during the abscence of the gods to retriece an artifact(s) of some sort, maybe one, or all of these, are the artifact(s) he went there for. And even more interestingly, maybe he was able to travel to the Plane of Hate during the gods abscence b/c he has some of Inny's power...that could also explain many of his other abilities, and knowledge, and how he was able to Ascend to the godhood so easily....he already has some divinity...in his blood. Wow, the possibilities.....In any case, this is very interesting stuff, I can't wait to find out more about it.</blockquote>I cant help but remember a few EQ1 stories of Mayong giving other characters "vials" of blood, that when drank turned them into Vampires as well, which is somewhat similar to the description of the above items, weather or not the blood was his own i dont remember.

Zaphax

09-24-2010, 06:24 PM

In an age long ago, the Ydal first awoke, finding themselves in Mistmyr, a realm created within the Plane of Hate by their creator, Innoruuk. After a time leaders emerged and began organizing their kind into settlements. Villages began to flourish and eventually a capital city known as Vorguul was established. There, a council of five of the most prominent (and unscrupulous) members of Ydallian society ruled the region. Utilizing a brutal form of governance, they valued political expediency above morality. Furthermore, the council demanded that the worship of their creator, Innoruuk, be placed above all else, while the accomplishments of the individual and their own well being, were of much less concern. To accomplish their goals the council divided their followers into five clans, each being led by a single council member who tasked them with their own responsibilities to help aid in the betterment of Ydallian society as a whole. These clans were known as the Lubesh, Vashota, Bechoi, Rajadevi and Yciid. Later, as the race of the Ydal matured, a tragic flaw in their creation would eventually be discovered. Falsely believing this to be an extraordinary blessing from Innoruuk, the first dark elves instead became consumed by a curse which ultimately lead to their extinction.

Rezikai

09-24-2010, 06:54 PM

<cite>Zaphax wrote:</cite><blockquote>In an age long ago, the Ydal first awoke, finding themselves in Mistmyr, a realm created within the Plane of Hate by their creator, Innoruuk. After a time leaders emerged and began organizing their kind into settlements. Villages began to flourish and eventually a capital city known as Vorguul was established. There, a council of five of the most prominent (and unscrupulous) members of Ydallian society ruled the region. Utilizing a brutal form of governance, they valued political expediency above morality. Furthermore, the council demanded that the worship of their creator, Innoruuk, be placed above all else, while the accomplishments of the individual and their own well being, were of much less concern. To accomplish their goals the council divided their followers into five clans, each being led by a single council member who tasked them with their own responsibilities to help aid in the betterment of Ydallian society as a whole. These clans were known as the Lubesh, Vashota, Bechoi, Rajadevi and Yciid. Later, as the race of the Ydal matured, a tragic flaw in their creation would eventually be discovered. Falsely believing this to be an extraordinary blessing from Innoruuk, the first dark elves instead became consumed by a curse which ultimately lead to their extinction.</blockquote><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cusashorn

09-24-2010, 08:13 PM

If the Ydal were created by Innoruuk, then that rules out any and all theories that they were one of the first races to exist on Norrath. Innoruuk didn't arrive until after Veeshan, Brell, Rallos Zek, Tunare, and Prexus, whom all had already placed their races on Norrath...... Well.. Ok... I'll give into the theory that the gods themselves existed before Norrath became inhabitable, so maybe Inny created them before he came to Norrath, but that still means that other races existed before he arrived.

Mary the Prophetess

09-24-2010, 09:17 PM

Possible explanation:Innoruuk tried to create his own (corrupted, evil) Dark Elf race so as not to be left out of the whole "Gods creating their own races" thing.These were the Ydal, but the effort failed because of the flaw.This failure had to produce some raised eybrows and sideways smirking from other gods who had succeeded in their efforts. Possibly Tunare especially mocked his failure?Since "Plan A" failed, Innoruuk had no choice but to fall back on "Plan B", the kidnapping and corruption of the king and queen of Tunare's creation. He gets his own race through theft, and gets back at Tunare for her ridicule. A two-for-one deal.Just an idea.

Gungo

09-24-2010, 10:12 PM

He never said he created the ydal from scratch and the FLAW could of been vampirism.

Wilin

09-24-2010, 10:57 PM

It seems fairly straight forward based on this new Ydal lore and pre-existing info. The Ydal were the first dark elves created by Inny using the Ewer. But, because they were created using the Ewer, they all became vampires upon dying. As each new vampire emerged in Ydal society, they killed more and more of the living Ydal until they all died and were all eventually reborn as vampires via the flaw/curse. Hence, the first dark elf clans became the first vampire clans.We also know that Mayong came from Mistmyr so that seems to place him as a Ydal. And given his stature and ability, I would bet that he was one of the original Ydal council members. Looking back at what we know about Mayong will likely provide further hints about the Ydal and the origin of the Freethinkers.

Meirril

09-24-2010, 11:06 PM

I think the main thing this proves is Mayong lies about his own history. He didn't bear witness to the first brood. He can't be older than them either.Things that had to happen before Mayong was created:Norrath must be populated. First race placed on Norrath: Dragons. Afterward Brell places several creations in a secret vault, then conspires with Tunare and Prexus to place more races to oppose the dragons.Sometime after humanoid races appear and start worshiping the gods Anashti'Sul creates the Ewer and releases the curse of undeath. Innoruuk gains possession of the Ewer somehow and creates his first race, the ydal.Why does it have to happen in this order? Simply put Norrath is an uninhabitted rock in space when Veeshan first appears. None of the current races exist on the planet. (retcon to the lore: Leviathans existed before Dragons. Note that in creation lore Tunare creates not just Elves, but also animals and plants AFTER the dragons appear. So apparently Leviathians don't need to eat or breathe or they ate rocks.) Unless the dragons chose to worship the other gods in Norrath Anashti'sul would of had no followers to curse with undeath before the other races are placed. Once the other races are placed then some can turn to worship a non-creator diety and she can begin her experiments to make them immortal. "Cure death".So, all in all this means that Mayong is younger than the Elven race, though older than any elf still in existance.

Wilin

09-24-2010, 11:22 PM

Since Mistmyr is in the Plane of Hate and not on Norrath, (technically) any chronologies of races existing on Norrath can be independent of the creation of the Ydal since they were not created on Norrath. And there's no mention that their society ever moved to Norrath out of Mistmyr.I'm also not sure about the source of the assumption that the Ydal were created after the GodKing did his thing. If someone can clarify that, it would be awesome.And here is the passage from Vhalen concerning Mayong's origin. Does the epic catastrophe = the curse of the Ydal?"Oh my! The history of Lord Mayong Mistmoore. How can you explain someone who is older than the ages? So they say. I do know a bit of the past of Mayong. I would speak of what I know, but, my dear Rapha, I can see that would only fuel your curiosity. Mayong reacts to those that seek his past. Then again, the natural defenses of the Athenaeum should keep you safe. So why not speak just a bit about what I have heard in my journeys. Mayong Mistmoore is older than the ages. He is a great survivor of an epic catastrophe, an event so tragic that he chooses not to speak of it, but he does not forget. His tragedies are not to be repeated and he has taken great care to see that this is so. Is the defense against history repeating his sole purpose? No. But knowing those defenses could help you understand his actions and hint of the secrets he keeps. Have you ever met Mayong? Very few have, or rather, very few have ever met him and been released. Sometimes they think they are free from the walls of Castle Mistmoore, but once touched by Mistmoore, always bound. The power of the lord of vampires is not restricted to his foreboding land. He could be watching you this very minute."Unless someone can verify that the Ydal were not created prior to the dragons on Norrath, then the Ydal (and Mayong)could be "older than the ages".Also, if he was living in PoH/Mistmyr, this would also explain the conundrum that we've battled for some time in the lore community. How can Mayong have been here before the dragons? Answer: He wasn't here on Norrath, he was there in the PoH before Veeshan seeded Norrath with her progeny.

Rezikai

09-24-2010, 11:47 PM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since Mistmyr is in the Plane of Hate and not on Norrath, (technically) any chronologies of races existing on Norrath can be independent of the creation of the Ydal since they were not created on Norrath. And there's no mention that their society ever moved to Norrath out of Mistmyr.I'm also not sure about the source of the assumption that the Ydal were created after the GodKing did his thing. If someone can clarify that, it would be awesome.And here is the passage from Vhalen concerning Mayong's origin. Does the epic catastrophe = the curse of the Ydal?"Oh my! The history of Lord Mayong Mistmoore. How can you explain someone who is older than the ages? So they say. I do know a bit of the past of Mayong. I would speak of what I know, but, my dear Rapha, I can see that would only fuel your curiosity. Mayong reacts to those that seek his past. Then again, the natural defenses of the Athenaeum should keep you safe. So why not speak just a bit about what I have heard in my journeys. Mayong Mistmoore is older than the ages. He is a great survivor of an epic catastrophe, an event so tragic that he chooses not to speak of it, but he does not forget. His tragedies are not to be repeated and he has taken great care to see that this is so. Is the defense against history repeating his sole purpose? No. But knowing those defenses could help you understand his actions and hint of the secrets he keeps. Have you ever met Mayong? Very few have, or rather, very few have ever met him and been released. Sometimes they think they are free from the walls of Castle Mistmoore, but once touched by Mistmoore, always bound. The power of the lord of vampires is not restricted to his foreboding land. He could be watching you this very minute."Unless someone can verify that the Ydal were not created prior to the dragons on Norrath, then the Ydal (and Mayong)could be "older than the ages".Also, if he was living in PoH/Mistmyr, this would also explain the conundrum that we've battled for some time in the lore community. How can Mayong have been here before the dragons? Answer: He wasn't here on Norrath, he was there in the PoH before Veeshan seeded Norrath with her progeny.</blockquote>This is what I'm thinking as well, his race was created 1st, then the Ewer came into Inny's hands later making it the catalyst that sets the Ydal to vampirsm that they assume is Innorruuks gift... when in fact its the Ewers curse of undeath.As for ret-cons I'm not thinking they are since alot of this is written with Vhalen's Timeline. Like the Leviathans being on Norrath before Veeshan struck. There were Tony's writing and if he spun the timeline then they existed before, he was the crafter so I'd like to assume he'd know his own weaving.oh and good catch on the connection to the Freethinkers we know from the Mistmyr manor Mayong was trying to fight off the vampiric hordes of Ydal when it triggered in his race so he became a vampire hunter... hmm might explain the similar symbols to the Dead and the symbol on the Freethinker abomination hat.

Cusashorn

09-25-2010, 01:37 AM

Innoruuk using the Ewer of Sul'Dae....Ok.. Someone wanna explain to me how a god used this artifact to create a race before Norrath was turned into a planet before the Goddess who originally created it... created it?

Meirril

09-25-2010, 05:52 AM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since Mistmyr is in the Plane of Hate and not on Norrath, (technically) any chronologies of races existing on Norrath can be independent of the creation of the Ydal since they were not created on Norrath. And there's no mention that their society ever moved to Norrath out of Mistmyr.I'm also not sure about the source of the assumption that the Ydal were created after the GodKing did his thing. If someone can clarify that, it would be awesome.And here is the passage from Vhalen concerning Mayong's origin. Does the epic catastrophe = the curse of the Ydal?"Oh my! The history of Lord Mayong Mistmoore. How can you explain someone who is older than the ages? So they say. I do know a bit of the past of Mayong. I would speak of what I know, but, my dear Rapha, I can see that would only fuel your curiosity. Mayong reacts to those that seek his past. Then again, the natural defenses of the Athenaeum should keep you safe. So why not speak just a bit about what I have heard in my journeys. Mayong Mistmoore is older than the ages. He is a great survivor of an epic catastrophe, an event so tragic that he chooses not to speak of it, but he does not forget. His tragedies are not to be repeated and he has taken great care to see that this is so. Is the defense against history repeating his sole purpose? No. But knowing those defenses could help you understand his actions and hint of the secrets he keeps. Have you ever met Mayong? Very few have, or rather, very few have ever met him and been released. Sometimes they think they are free from the walls of Castle Mistmoore, but once touched by Mistmoore, always bound. The power of the lord of vampires is not restricted to his foreboding land. He could be watching you this very minute."Unless someone can verify that the Ydal were not created prior to the dragons on Norrath, then the Ydal (and Mayong)could be "older than the ages".Also, if he was living in PoH/Mistmyr, this would also explain the conundrum that we've battled for some time in the lore community. How can Mayong have been here before the dragons? Answer: He wasn't here on Norrath, he was there in the PoH before Veeshan seeded Norrath with her progeny.</blockquote>The Ydal would of had to have been created BEFORE the Godking used the pheonix staffs and the Ewer in an attempt to save his people from the curse of Ro that gripped the Elddar Forest. Otherwise it doesn't explain how Mayong was in Fadewyr before the elves moved to that land.As the collection peices say that the ydal were created by Innoruuk by using his blood and the ewer three things must happen. First, Anashti'sul must exist as a goddess. There must be worshipers that are mortal and able to be saved for her to want to create the Ewer in the first place. Lastly Anashti'sul must be banished for the creation of undeath for her to loose possession of the ewer and for Innoruuk to have free access to it.Veeshan spured the creation of the other races. I've covered that before. The other races were created to keep the dragons from claiming Norrath for Veeshan alone. Other gods created other races, but AFTER Tunare, Brell and Prexus did.A goddess of health doesn't have any reason to exist until something to be healthy exists. The leviathans don't count, neither do other dieites. Besides, effectively all of these beings are immortal anyways. I don't know how else you can explain the leviathan in chelsith surviving until today other than to say that it was immortal.As for where the ydal were created, yeah the collection points to them being made in Inny's realm. Honestly that doesn't matter because of the inclusion of the Ewer as a vital component in their creation. The Ydal are dependend on Anashti'sul's existance and her creation of the Ewer.

Wilin

09-25-2010, 09:22 AM

You're making 3 assumptions though that I'm not sure are verified.Your Assumption 1: Anashti did not exist until she had followers on Norrath.My Comment:Why couldn't she have existed prior to Norrath? We know there are other worlds and we have some inkling that the pantheon's influence may extend to those worlds.Your Assumption 2: The Ewer was taken from Anashti after she was banished.My Comment: Inny also being a god could have easily borrowed it or bargained for it or some similar method to use it.Your Assumption 3: The Ewer's existance is tied to Norrath existance.My Comment: A quick look shows this passage from <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=107&ss=ewer" target="_blank">http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=bo...107&ss=ewer</a>"The prophet told them to drink from the great ewer, the very vessel that sprang life to the Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds. And so they drank from the Ewer of Sul'Dae."The Ewer was used to create the Fyr'Un and Fyr'Un ran through the Celestial Worlds(be nice to have that set defined). But, my concern is that the Ewer does not seem to be constrained by the creation of Norrath if it was used to create life across the celestial worlds.Do we have any indication of a time frame specifically mentioning the creation of the Ewer?

Gungo

09-25-2010, 03:05 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since Mistmyr is in the Plane of Hate and not on Norrath, (technically) any chronologies of races existing on Norrath can be independent of the creation of the Ydal since they were not created on Norrath. And there's no mention that their society ever moved to Norrath out of Mistmyr.I'm also not sure about the source of the assumption that the Ydal were created after the GodKing did his thing. If someone can clarify that, it would be awesome.And here is the passage from Vhalen concerning Mayong's origin. Does the epic catastrophe = the curse of the Ydal?"Oh my! The history of Lord Mayong Mistmoore. How can you explain someone who is older than the ages? So they say. I do know a bit of the past of Mayong. I would speak of what I know, but, my dear Rapha, I can see that would only fuel your curiosity. Mayong reacts to those that seek his past. Then again, the natural defenses of the Athenaeum should keep you safe. So why not speak just a bit about what I have heard in my journeys. Mayong Mistmoore is older than the ages. He is a great survivor of an epic catastrophe, an event so tragic that he chooses not to speak of it, but he does not forget. His tragedies are not to be repeated and he has taken great care to see that this is so. Is the defense against history repeating his sole purpose? No. But knowing those defenses could help you understand his actions and hint of the secrets he keeps. Have you ever met Mayong? Very few have, or rather, very few have ever met him and been released. Sometimes they think they are free from the walls of Castle Mistmoore, but once touched by Mistmoore, always bound. The power of the lord of vampires is not restricted to his foreboding land. He could be watching you this very minute."Unless someone can verify that the Ydal were not created prior to the dragons on Norrath, then the Ydal (and Mayong)could be "older than the ages".Also, if he was living in PoH/Mistmyr, this would also explain the conundrum that we've battled for some time in the lore community. How can Mayong have been here before the dragons? Answer: He wasn't here on Norrath, he was there in the PoH before Veeshan seeded Norrath with her progeny.</blockquote>The Ydal would of had to have been created BEFORE the Godking used the pheonix staffs and the Ewer in an attempt to save his people from the curse of Ro that gripped the Elddar Forest. Otherwise it doesn't explain how Mayong was in Fadewyr before the elves moved to that land.As the collection peices say that the ydal were created by Innoruuk by using his blood and the ewer three things must happen. First, Anashti'sul must exist as a goddess. There must be worshipers that are mortal and able to be saved for her to want to create the Ewer in the first place. Lastly Anashti'sul must be banished for the creation of undeath for her to loose possession of the ewer and for Innoruuk to have free access to it.Veeshan spured the creation of the other races. I've covered that before. The other races were created to keep the dragons from claiming Norrath for Veeshan alone. Other gods created other races, but AFTER Tunare, Brell and Prexus did.A goddess of health doesn't have any reason to exist until something to be healthy exists. The leviathans don't count, neither do other dieites. Besides, effectively all of these beings are immortal anyways. I don't know how else you can explain the leviathan in chelsith surviving until today other than to say that it was immortal.As for where the ydal were created, yeah the collection points to them being made in Inny's realm. Honestly that doesn't matter because of the inclusion of the Ewer as a vital component in their creation. The Ydal are dependend on Anashti'sul's existance and her creation of the Ewer.</blockquote>Norrath wasnt the first society, remember the current avatar of health is not from norrath.

Meirril

09-26-2010, 12:07 AM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're making 3 assumptions though that I'm not sure are verified.Your Assumption 1: Anashti did not exist until she had followers on Norrath.My Comment:Why couldn't she have existed prior to Norrath? We know there are other worlds and we have some inkling that the pantheon's influence may extend to those worlds.Your Assumption 2: The Ewer was taken from Anashti after she was banished.My Comment: Inny also being a god could have easily borrowed it or bargained for it or some similar method to use it.Your Assumption 3: The Ewer's existance is tied to Norrath existance.My Comment: A quick look shows this passage from <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=107&ss=ewer" target="_blank">http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=bo...107&ss=ewer</a>"The prophet told them to drink from the great ewer, the very vessel that sprang life to the Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds. And so they drank from the Ewer of Sul'Dae."The Ewer was used to create the Fyr'Un and Fyr'Un ran through the Celestial Worlds(be nice to have that set defined). But, my concern is that the Ewer does not seem to be constrained by the creation of Norrath if it was used to create life across the celestial worlds.Do we have any indication of a time frame specifically mentioning the creation of the Ewer?</blockquote>No, but we have timelines that specifically mention how dragons, the first races and Innoruuk's discovery of Norrath all relate to each other. We've also got information relating to Anashti'sul and Theer's banishments to the void. If you string all of these together to make any sense even including your assumptions then the timeline looks like this:Anashti'sul creates the Ewer.Innoruuk creates the Ydal.Theer is banished to the void (can happen before prior events).Anashti is banished to the void (can happen before the Ydal, but must happen after Theer's banishment).Veeshan discovers Norrath and deposits the first brood.Brell discovers Norrath and deposits his first creations.Brell, Tunare and Prexus deposit the eldar races.Brell, Cazic, Rallos and Bristlebane deposite the second races.Innoruuk discovers Norrath, is furrious and kidnaps King and Queen Thex to torture and then remake them into the Tier'dal. Note: This is the first point at which Innoruuk becomes aware of Norrath and unless your going to say that Mayong knew of Norrath BEFORE Innoruuk and somehow hid this information from him this is the first point in which Mayong could possibly have come to Norrath.Which still makes Mayong a liar when it comes to saying he witnessed the comming of the first brood, ect ect ect. Even if you want to desperately believe him, he can't beat the arrival of the first brood unless your going to say he has a method of traveling the dimensions without the assistance of a god. Or maybe he was hitchhiking with Veeshan when she planted the first brood and decided to stick around and watch the barren rock? It is much, much easier to believe he is lying about this.

Cusashorn

09-26-2010, 12:44 AM

^ One problem with that: Anashti wasn't banished until after she introduced Undeath on Norrath. If she had been banished before Veeshan discovered and terraformed Norrath, then there wouldn't have been an entire society dedicated to her existence. Nobody would know who she was, and thus could not have formed a society around all the gifts she gave to them.

RoninSenshi

09-26-2010, 09:18 AM

When was the Ewer created?

Cusashorn

09-26-2010, 03:55 PM

I can only assume it was created for the purpose of Anashti trying to cure death, which resulted in the undead being released on Norrath, which lead to her banishment.Since she wasn't banished until after she unleashed the undead on Norrath, there's no possible way the Ydal could have existed prior to any other existing races on Norrath if we are to believe that Inny used the ewer to create them.

Larkverdin

09-26-2010, 06:15 PM

Is it possible that the Ewer existed before the unleashing of undeath upon Norrath? I'm not suggesting of another purpose for it, just saying that why couldn't it have existed before it was actually needed? Horrible example being: why do you keep an AC unit in the winter? Well because you have a purpose for it at a later date, that's why.For some reason I get the feeling that it did exist before it was actually "used". I doubt she would have let Inny just use it, but knowing the god of hate, he probably just stole it temporarily and then put it back when he was done. Since he kept his creations inside the plane of hate, how would the other gods have even known he used it?

Mary the Prophetess

09-26-2010, 07:07 PM

Is it possible that Mayong is *not* actually Ydal at all?What would happen if a god drank from the Ewer? Why they would do so I have no idea, but just suppose.

RoninSenshi

09-26-2010, 08:31 PM

"Is it possible that the Ewer existed before the unleashing of undeath upon Norrath"That's exactly what I'm getting at. People are assuming that the Ewer was made right when the Ashanti followers wanted immortality.That thing could predate Norrath, just hanging around. Maybe it was something created by Innoruuk, given to Ashanti.

Meirril

09-27-2010, 01:33 AM

<cite>Larkverdin@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is it possible that the Ewer existed before the unleashing of undeath upon Norrath? I'm not suggesting of another purpose for it, just saying that why couldn't it have existed before it was actually needed? Horrible example being: why do you keep an AC unit in the winter? Well because you have a purpose for it at a later date, that's why.For some reason I get the feeling that it did exist before it was actually "used". I doubt she would have let Inny just use it, but knowing the god of hate, he probably just stole it temporarily and then put it back when he was done. Since he kept his creations inside the plane of hate, how would the other gods have even known he used it?</blockquote>According to Anashti's own lore, no. She created the Ewer as a cure for death. When she created it she immediately tested it and it worked, undeath was released. She wasn't going to wait around for more of her followers to die when she had the cure sitting around.Note: it isn't explicid that this took place on Norrath. Kinda like it isn't explicidly said that 90% of the lore stories happen on Norrath. It is implied heavly that it took place on Norrath but if you desperately want to believe that it happened on some other world and the information mysteriously appeared on Norrath later, along with several key artifacts that pertain to the story your free to do so.

Meirril

09-27-2010, 01:38 AM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is it possible that Mayong is *not* actually Ydal at all?What would happen if a god drank from the Ewer? Why they would do so I have no idea, but just suppose.</blockquote>Personally I'd love to say this. I'd love to say that the entire Ydal story is a delusion that Mayong indulges in and he fabricated the whole thing to legitimize his larger than life story to the few that would hear such a tale and live.Unfortunately, it seems more and more that this is the direction the last set of lore devs choose for his story to go, and the current set supports. Unfortunately I feel that the story conflicts with previous statements made by mayong and about mayong. The only conclusion I can draw from all of this is that Mayong habitually lies about himself.

Cusashorn

09-27-2010, 01:54 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Larkverdin@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is it possible that the Ewer existed before the unleashing of undeath upon Norrath? I'm not suggesting of another purpose for it, just saying that why couldn't it have existed before it was actually needed? Horrible example being: why do you keep an AC unit in the winter? Well because you have a purpose for it at a later date, that's why.For some reason I get the feeling that it did exist before it was actually "used". I doubt she would have let Inny just use it, but knowing the god of hate, he probably just stole it temporarily and then put it back when he was done. Since he kept his creations inside the plane of hate, how would the other gods have even known he used it?</blockquote>According to Anashti's own lore, no. She created the Ewer as a cure for death. When she created it she immediately tested it and it worked, undeath was released. She wasn't going to wait around for more of her followers to die when she had the cure sitting around.Note: it isn't explicid that this took place on Norrath. Kinda like it isn't explicidly said that 90% of the lore stories happen on Norrath. It is implied heavly that it took place on Norrath but if you desperately want to believe that it happened on some other world and the information mysteriously appeared on Norrath later, along with several key artifacts that pertain to the story your free to do so.</blockquote>Yeah, but as I mentioned, how would there exist an entire society who openly worshipped her and embraced her gift to them if she didn't develop this cure until after she came to Norrath? I can't see a whole society even having knowledge that she ever existed if she was banished before she came to Norrath.Remember that tidbit about the Shadowmen, and how they were a race who had been banished to the void for so long that it was hard for anyone to know that they ever even once existed?

Maergoth

09-27-2010, 10:26 AM

Timeline and possibility?Rodcet's race,Jal`Raeth, is immortal and fascinated with the ability to die.(Remembrances<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />rime) Some travel to Norrath and build a city called Envar and study undeath? in the Dead Hills near Takish`Hiz (EQOA crap). Race gets banished for something to the void.(L&L Shadowed Men) Elves find remains of their city, Anashti takes interest and works with all of this.(Maj'dul 1001 tales) Uses ewer for her people, gets banished and meets up with a convenient alliance in the void. Sul`Raeth support Anashti in trying to get out. (SF NPC) Rodcet becomes new god of health. Theer finds anashti and they try to get free together, breaking off the alliance shortly after. (Anashti Sul)Inny mixes his own blood into the ewer, creates a race (5 clans) of dark elves that will forever yearn for a substitute for that blood. Living in Mistmyr, Dark elves slowly get corrupted a few at a time by this inevitable fate and start to become paranoid and seclusive. Soon there is a rift in the dark elf community and one Mayong Mistmoore steps up to "solve" the problem. As he builds reputation amongst the unchanged elves, he's slowly succumbing to the same fate. After obtaining large amounts of power and wealth, they two culture eventually combine and find their champion Mayong Mistmoore on top of the forces he was trying previously to snuff out. Mayong wants the ewer, and it seems Anashti might like it back as well.Obviously some gaps are filled in to try and make it logical.. and I'm sure it's been brought up already. When did these two events cross paths? The ewer is a physical object. We've broken it, collected it, hidden it, lost it, etc. Yet, "The river of life running through the planes themselves sprung forth from it".I'm starting to agree with the idea that she created it long before her first documented uses of it.

erimus

09-27-2010, 11:42 AM

What if Anashti did not create the ewer so much from scratch as is commonly beleived. Perhaps it existed in some form before she used it. What if first, Inny had the Ewer (in some form) and used it to create the Ydal, and the race was ultimately corrupted and destroyed somehow.Later, Anashti ( having knowledge of what the ewer did to the Ydal) recreates it thinking perhaps she can use it to "cure" death. Maybe she even thinks that if she somehow builds the ewer differently, it wont have the same consequences, who knows. I know its a bit far fetched, however it explains a couple of things. First, it helps the events seem to fit better into the timeline. Second, it may explain the banishment of Anashti a little better. If she used the ewer having some sort of idea what the consequences would be, Im sure the other gods would be more apt to throw her into the void, then if it was an honest mistake.

Gungo

09-27-2010, 02:03 PM

Consider the hidden evil nature of the ewer I have an inclination that Inny was involved with its creation.My theory is that Inny and anashti created the ewer together. Inny probably knew the true intention of the ewer. Used it on his ydal creations. But it was ultimately anashti that was banished by the GOOD dieties for creating the ewer.This gives inny ample opportunity to use the ewer when it was created. This theory sounds EXTREMELY like something inny would do.

Wilin

09-27-2010, 03:04 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>According to Anashti's own lore, no. She created the Ewer as a cure for death. When she created it she immediately tested it and it worked, undeath was released. She wasn't going to wait around for more of her followers to die when she had the cure sitting around.Note: it isn't explicid that this took place on Norrath. Kinda like it isn't explicidly said that 90% of the lore stories happen on Norrath. It is implied heavly that it took place on Norrath but if you desperately want to believe that it happened on some other world and the information mysteriously appeared on Norrath later, along with several key artifacts that pertain to the story your free to do so.</blockquote>So, that's the core of what I was illustrating earlier. When you're talking about the planes and the gods, the timelines can be indepedent of Norrath's timeline. So, unless we have a specific Norrath reference in an event, it might have happened on the planes or even on another planet. Likewise, an item created by the gods, such as the Ewer, does not have to originate on Norrath.That being said, the lore that states that Anashti created the Ewer(got a link to the reference?) has to be reconciled with the lore that I posted earlier(see my earlier post for the link).Namely, The Ewer was used to create the "Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds" That seems to imply that the Ewer was not simply created for the purposes of undeath unless the river of life through the celestial worlds was a bonus benefit.This could initiate another research thread on the Fyr'Un and what we know about it.

Maergoth

09-27-2010, 06:04 PM

It may have something to do with the human / elf life span differences.. or maybe Inny tainted the ewer, maybe testing it before she was able to use it. Given that it's her namesake, I'd say Anashti created the Ewer at one point in time. Perhaps she was the goddess who created the shadowed men in their former times on another planet and creating them with the ewer was the reason they were immortal.But one thing strikes me oddly. Prexus created the Kedge as immortal and unable to reproduce, without a hitch. Why would Anashti need something so twistedly powerful as the Ewer to accomplish that?

Rezikai

09-27-2010, 10:07 PM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timeline and possibility?Rodcet's race,Jal`Raeth, is immortal and fascinated with the ability to die.(Remembrances<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />rime) Some travel to Norrath and build a city called Envar and study undeath? in the Dead Hills near Takish`Hiz (EQOA crap). Race gets banished for something to the void.(L&L Shadowed Men) Elves find remains of their city, Anashti takes interest and works with all of this.(Maj'dul 1001 tales) Uses ewer for her people, gets banished and meets up with a convenient alliance in the void. Sul`Raeth support Anashti in trying to get out. (SF NPC) Rodcet becomes new god of health. Theer finds anashti and they try to get free together, breaking off the alliance shortly after. (Anashti Sul)Inny mixes his own blood into the ewer, creates a race (5 clans) of dark elves that will forever yearn for a substitute for that blood. Living in Mistmyr, Dark elves slowly get corrupted a few at a time by this inevitable fate and start to become paranoid and seclusive. Soon there is a rift in the dark elf community and one Mayong Mistmoore steps up to "solve" the problem. As he builds reputation amongst the unchanged elves, he's slowly succumbing to the same fate. After obtaining large amounts of power and wealth, they two culture eventually combine and find their champion Mayong Mistmoore on top of the forces he was trying previously to snuff out. Mayong wants the ewer, and it seems Anashti might like it back as well.Obviously some gaps are filled in to try and make it logical.. and I'm sure it's been brought up already. When did these two events cross paths? The ewer is a physical object. We've broken it, collected it, hidden it, lost it, etc. Yet, "The river of life running through the planes themselves sprung forth from it".I'm starting to agree with the idea that she created it long before her first documented uses of it.</blockquote>Hmmm this got me thinking. Zaphax's post says the Ydal were to worship Inny 1st and foremost. We also know Anashti didnt want her "followers" to die. Would Ydal corrupted by the Ewer see "Only" inny as their deity? Since their vampirism while seen as Innorruuks blessing and later in Teir'dal as his curse was their way to immortality with Undeath. Would the two ever collaborate to create a race? We know Inny likes the females for some hot troll/imp race(whatever Inny is) loving.Because if it is Anashti's was the creator of undeath could any of the Ydal be seen as her followers in her eyes? or would any follow her? Were they the original "undeath/everliving" beings she so wanted to live on?Oh and dont knock Envar to badly.. I'm betting it used to be called Tal'Thex aka the Tower of Rot.

KniteShayd

09-28-2010, 08:10 AM

It sounded to me that The Ewer was created as a device for channeling the life giving nature of what flows from it. If that's the case, the design of it could have been somehow flawed when Anashti created it (or tampered with). Then when she used it, it malfuntioned and released undeath to those that used it.I haven't gone into too much of her lore yet, so I don't know if my perception is accurate.As far as the Ydal go, I thought they were created in the PoH and resided there until Inny decides to give them His Gift (which was using the Ewer). In doing so they began to die, but by him using his blood, some survive. Them dieing off, is what I assumed was the big event Mayong remembers.As far as Mayong is concerned, I think he is one of (if not THE last one of) the Ydal. How he came to Norrath, we obviously have to still figure out. And perhaps if we can do that, we can figure out more of the mystery that surrounds him. Something in the back of my mind, keeps telling me that Inny's timing was off when he used his blood. If he didn't make a fatal flaw himself, perhaps there would be more Ydal left.Is it possible Mayong is an exile from Mystmyr?, Or perhaps fled the place for some reason related to the epic catastrophe? And also, Assuming Mayong was undead when he arrived on Norrath, would he need our living conditions to exist?

Banditman

09-28-2010, 10:08 AM

No, Anashti intended to create undeath. She considered it a gift. It wasn't a malfunction.I think the history of the Norrathian Pantheon would have been far different had Anashti seen undeath as a "mistake".

Gungo

09-28-2010, 01:19 PM

I still dont see how any of this was OFF.Assuming:Mayong is ydal. (unknown normal lifespan likely elven length which is substantial or longer)Ydal were created and resided IN the plane of hate.Norrath was createdDragons deposited on norrath by veeshan (first brood)More races deposited on norrath by breel, tunare, et alAnashti created ewerAnashti used ewer and created undeathInny used the ewer on ydal and created vampirismTeirdal created by inny from tunare's creation (assuming ydal are unrelated to tier'dal)Assuming this is the timeline then mayong WOULD be able to witness the first brood upon norrath.

Sean_Eisman

09-28-2010, 01:49 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still dont see how any of this was OFF.Assuming:Mayong is ydal. (unknown normal lifespan likely elven length which is substantial or longer)Ydal were created and resided IN the plane of hate.Norrath was createdDragons deposited on norrath by veeshan (first brood)More races deposited on norrath by breel, tunare, et alAnashti created ewerAnashti used ewer and created undeathInny used the ewer on ydal and created vampirismTeirdal created by inny from tunare's creation (assuming ydal are unrelated to tier'dal)Assuming this is the timeline then mayong WOULD be able to witness the first brood upon norrath.</blockquote>Except that the writeup on each Ydal Talisman says, “The dark elves would be spawned from dark ancient rituals cast upon the product of a single drop of Innoruuk’s blood, poured from the Ewer of Sul’Dae.” This states that the Ewer existed before the Ydal were first created… hence the added speculation.

Gungo

09-28-2010, 06:08 PM

<cite>Eisfyre@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still dont see how any of this was OFF.Assuming:Mayong is ydal. (unknown normal lifespan likely elven length which is substantial or longer)Ydal were created and resided IN the plane of hate.Norrath was createdDragons deposited on norrath by veeshan (first brood)More races deposited on norrath by breel, tunare, et alAnashti created ewerAnashti used ewer and created undeathInny used the ewer on ydal and created vampirismTeirdal created by inny from tunare's creation (assuming ydal are unrelated to tier'dal)Assuming this is the timeline then mayong WOULD be able to witness the first brood upon norrath.</blockquote>Except that the writeup on each Ydal Talisman says, “The dark elves would be spawned from dark ancient rituals cast upon the product of a single drop of Innoruuk’s blood, poured from the Ewer of Sul’Dae.” This states that the Ewer existed before the Ydal were first created… hence the added speculation.</blockquote>I guess I am assuming before the Ydal became Darkelves through the ritual they were normal elves and didnt just sprout like broccolli out fo the ground. Hence they likely could of existed within the planes themselves, but mor ethen likely either mayong is mispoken or misquoted when he claimed to exist BEFORE the first brood was deposited. He likely meant he was there when the first brood was on norrath. Where does that quote come from? We must remember not every book found on norrath is expected to be 100% accurate.

Rezikai

09-28-2010, 10:47 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eisfyre@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still dont see how any of this was OFF.Assuming:Mayong is ydal. (unknown normal lifespan likely elven length which is substantial or longer)Ydal were created and resided IN the plane of hate.Norrath was createdDragons deposited on norrath by veeshan (first brood)More races deposited on norrath by breel, tunare, et alAnashti created ewerAnashti used ewer and created undeathInny used the ewer on ydal and created vampirismTeirdal created by inny from tunare's creation (assuming ydal are unrelated to tier'dal)Assuming this is the timeline then mayong WOULD be able to witness the first brood upon norrath.</blockquote>Except that the writeup on each Ydal Talisman says, “The dark elves would be spawned from dark ancient rituals cast upon the product of a single drop of Innoruuk’s blood, poured from the Ewer of Sul’Dae.” This states that the Ewer existed before the Ydal were first created… hence the added speculation.</blockquote>I guess I am assuming before the Ydal became Darkelves through the ritual they were normal elves and didnt just sprout like broccolli out fo the ground. Hence they likely could of existed within the planes themselves, but mor ethen likely either mayong is mispoken or misquoted when he claimed to exist BEFORE the first brood was deposited. He likely meant he was there when the first brood was on norrath. Where does that quote come from? We must remember not every book found on norrath is expected to be 100% accurate.</blockquote>The quote comes from battle actually iirc from EQ1. When he says it is during one of the text - chat box phrases as adventurers battle him I'll try to find the it on the EQ1 lore boards where they mention it. And Gung you still could be right about the Ydal pre-dating Norraths first brood of dragons, we dont really have an idea when Anashti created the Ewer even though she had followers on Norrath later, whos to say she didnt have others on other worlds previously?/perhaps.Mayong says at the end of the Fate of Norrath quest that all our salvation was here on this backwater rock (paraphrasing mind you) in this squamate of wyrms. I think he plans to raise an army to take on Veeshans dragons not just here but through the Plane of Sky and other planets (we know other planets have Draconian type races living on them if we take the eq1 expac into effect). My money is that Veeshan's dragons were so powerfull through the other reaches of space and the Plane of Sky that no other gods creations could flourish before the dragons wiped them out. It may be why the Xulous were so significant. They were the first to stand against the dragons but a great disease wiped them out. Perhaps when they say Veeshan struck Norrath "In her Arrogance" was because Norrath was out of reach of her control and Brell saw this and told others to come plant their children to give them a fighting chance. It may be why the elven race of Norrath was significant enough to be called the 1st race to defeat Veeshan's children. This may be why Rallos was allowed to be in on the 1st set of gods as a neutral so they could learn to battle and perhaps give their creations a chance. Maybe we're on this backwater rock is fermenting until were ready to take on the dangers of a larger draconic force. Or the single most dangerous one. Perhaps thats what the 2 different Doomsday clocks mean. 1 shows the events leading to Kerafyrms ascension to godhood and/or total power. The other is the rise of Mayongs legions (to stop him or what-have you). The Shissar saw this while plane walking and realized enough to put it down into their calendar.

Maergoth

09-29-2010, 01:17 AM

The timeline confusions seem to stem from the use of the Ewer. Mayong supposedly existed before the gods inhabited Norrath, Anashti supposedly made the ewer as a gift to her people, and her people supposedly occupied Norrath before recieving that gift.However. We make a HEAVY assumption that Anashti was banished for her interactions with Ahket Aken, or the Silent City.This is falsely assumed.This city was born from the words of an ancient dal, a prophet of the chants of oblivion. How he came to know the shadow of nonexistent powers is unknown, but know he did.- The Tale of Ahket AkenThe city was founded by someone who followed a banished, forgotten god. She was banished due to actions involving a race much older than Silent city. Silent City was founded PRIOR to the Elddar elves getting extinguishedOnce in days long passed, days before the green turned to sand, there was a city of secrets. SO, by this we conclude that the city was built by an elf who worshipped a banished god, it's impossible that she was banished for unleashing undeath on a people that worship an already banished god.What race predated the elddar elves? None on Norrath.

Larkverdin

09-29-2010, 02:46 AM

Maergoth

09-29-2010, 12:43 PM

I just can't place a time on the Jal`Raeth ARRIVAL to the Dead hills, or when their banishment supposedly took place. Taking the only information we have, they still occupied EQOA's dead hills.. which was around the age of Enlightenment, long after the Ethernauts fended off the first invasion just before The Lost Age.This would seem impossible, because the race would have to be banished much prior to the ethernaut defense, giving time for revenge and plotting to come to fruition.We know the Jal`Raeth ARE the shadowed men, because a shadowed man bearing the title "Sul`Raeth" resides in Stonebrunt supporting Anashti Sul. It's safe to assume that he's not the only one, and that the Jal`Raeth race at least in part supports her. The question is, when did that support occur and under what circumstances.They either stumbled across her in their dabbles in necromancy (before she was banished, after?), or they teamed up with her in the void. To suffer the fate she did, I assume they found her AFTER she was banished and did something stupid to try and either replicate her actions or to free her from the void. The timelines still don't make sense though, and we have ZERO CLUE how the elves learned about her if indeed her actions took place prior to Norrath being populated by elves, which is an unescapable truth at this point.We'd have to assume the Jal`Raeth came here FIRST, BRINGING knowledge of her and leaving it for Elves to find later. We'd have to assume that some just "stuck around" through their entire race being banished.Still no idea when Theer or Anashti's banishment occured.Still no idea how the elves learned of Anashti.Still no idea when the Jal`Raeth got here or what they did to get "mostly" banished.Still no idea when the ewer was used, either time.Answers people, come on :/ and if someone screwed up with this timeline somewhere, a dev should try and correct it ASAP, retcon > nonsense

Rezikai

09-29-2010, 11:04 PM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just can't place a time on the Jal`Raeth ARRIVAL to the Dead hills, or when their banishment supposedly took place. Taking the only information we have, they still occupied EQOA's dead hills.. which was around the age of Enlightenment, long after the Ethernauts fended off the first invasion just before The Lost Age.This would seem impossible, because the race would have to be banished much prior to the ethernaut defense, giving time for revenge and plotting to come to fruition.We know the Jal`Raeth ARE the shadowed men, because a shadowed man bearing the title "Sul`Raeth" resides in Stonebrunt supporting Anashti Sul. It's safe to assume that he's not the only one, and that the Jal`Raeth race at least in part supports her. The question is, when did that support occur and under what circumstances.They either stumbled across her in their dabbles in necromancy (before she was banished, after?), or they teamed up with her in the void. To suffer the fate she did, I assume they found her AFTER she was banished and did something stupid to try and either replicate her actions or to free her from the void. The timelines still don't make sense though, and we have ZERO CLUE how the elves learned about her if indeed her actions took place prior to Norrath being populated by elves, which is an unescapable truth at this point.We'd have to assume the Jal`Raeth came here FIRST, BRINGING knowledge of her and leaving it for Elves to find later. We'd have to assume that some just "stuck around" through their entire race being banished.Still no idea when Theer or Anashti's banishment occured.Still no idea how the elves learned of Anashti.Still no idea when the Jal`Raeth got here or what they did to get "mostly" banished.I assume they were Rodcets race and like him were outcasted for being immortal, also they were restricted to the Tower of Envar, which i assume becomes the Tower of Rot later on. Kaitheel's pics of them is a little decieving b/c it shows them outside of Envar when rarely this was the case except the few quests and PoSky's King Rutha (used the same graphic).Still no idea when the ewer was used, either time.Answers people, come on :/ and if someone screwed up with this timeline somewhere, a dev should try and correct it ASAP, retcon > nonsense</blockquote>

Meirril

09-30-2010, 04:06 AM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>The timeline confusions seem to stem from the use of the Ewer. Mayong supposedly existed before the gods inhabited Norrath, Anashti supposedly made the ewer as a gift to her people, and her people supposedly occupied Norrath before recieving that gift.However. We make a HEAVY assumption that Anashti was banished for her interactions with Ahket Aken, or the Silent City.This is falsely assumed.This city was born from the words of an ancient dal, a prophet of the chants of oblivion. How he came to know the shadow of nonexistent powers is unknown, but know he did.- The Tale of Ahket AkenThe city was founded by someone who followed a banished, forgotten god. She was banished due to actions involving a race much older than Silent city. Silent City was founded PRIOR to the Elddar elves getting extinguishedOnce in days long passed, days before the green turned to sand, there was a city of secrets. SO, by this we conclude that the city was built by an elf who worshipped a banished god, it's impossible that she was banished for unleashing undeath on a people that worship an already banished god.What race predated the elddar elves? None on Norrath.</blockquote>Anashti was banished before the silent city was founded. The elves of that city came to worship an unknown god. This city was founded AFTER Takish. But what we don't know is in what age Ahket Aken was founded. We do know when it fell, and unfortunately that is the only time refrence we have in all of these stories. Though, you might assume that the same king that founded the city is the same king that ruled over it when it fell so your talking about a period of a few thousand years at most...Anashti didn't need to be banised before elves existed. She needed to be banisedh before Ahket Aken was founded. Probably a whole age before that so nobody would remember Anashti's name, though it is anyone's guess how her name was forgotten in the first place. Most likely by divine intervention, though which god has that ability is anyone's guess. If any diety could do this, couldn't they also make people forget how to enter the planes as well? This seems to be a really unbelievalbe part of the lore to be perfectly honest.

Jait

09-30-2010, 01:38 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote> couldn't they also make people forget how to enter the planes as well? This seems to be a really unbelievalbe part of the lore to be perfectly honest.</blockquote>Ahhh. Except they did. And the guy who they imprisoned and the city they destroyed came back to haunt them. I always wondered back in EQ1, why Zebuxorruk is so similar to Inny's name.Maybe Mayong wasn't the only disgruntled member of the Plane of Hate.

Volerin

09-30-2010, 01:40 PM

<cite>ilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're making 3 assumptions though that I'm not sure are verified.Your Assumption 1: Anashti did not exist until she had followers on Norrath.My Comment:Why couldn't she have existed prior to Norrath? We know there are other worlds and we have some inkling that the pantheon's influence may extend to those worlds.Your Assumption 2: The Ewer was taken from Anashti after she was banished.My Comment: Inny also being a god could have easily borrowed it or bargained for it or some similar method to use it.Your Assumption 3: The Ewer's existance is tied to Norrath existance.My Comment: A quick look shows this passage from <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=107&ss=ewer" target="_blank">http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=bo...107&ss=ewer</a>"The prophet told them to drink from the great ewer, the very vessel that sprang life to the Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds. And so they drank from the Ewer of Sul'Dae."The Ewer was used to create the Fyr'Un and Fyr'Un ran through the Celestial Worlds(be nice to have that set defined). But, my concern is that the Ewer does not seem to be constrained by the creation of Norrath if it was used to create life across the celestial worlds.Do we have any indication of a time frame specifically mentioning the creation of the Ewer?</blockquote>This quote, in the manner it was phrased; implies that there are 2 Ewers. What is the "Great Ewer" vs. what we know of the "Ewer of Sul'Dae"? Is the "Ewer of Sul'Dae" the Ewer of Life? or is it the "Great Ewer" referenced in the text above? It would seem the "Great Ewer" would be the Ewer of Life as the text references "the very vessel that sprang life to the Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds". Perhaps we are mixing the Ewers up? The Ewer of Life would by definition have to exist long before the Ewer of Sul'Dae right? And if so, would be available to any god who knew where to look for it.I just thought it worth mentioning. If I missed something in the lore, please be kind, still playing catch on the lore of the game.

Maergoth

09-30-2010, 07:40 PM

The Great ewer IS the ewer of Sul'Dae as far as I know. And.. Anashti would have to be banished before the elves came around for MAYONG to "See the dragons arrive", or the Ewer wouldn't have become public property as we assume it did.

Kamimura

09-30-2010, 10:57 PM

<cite>Volerin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're making 3 assumptions though that I'm not sure are verified.Your Assumption 1: Anashti did not exist until she had followers on Norrath.My Comment:Why couldn't she have existed prior to Norrath? We know there are other worlds and we have some inkling that the pantheon's influence may extend to those worlds.Your Assumption 2: The Ewer was taken from Anashti after she was banished.My Comment: Inny also being a god could have easily borrowed it or bargained for it or some similar method to use it.Your Assumption 3: The Ewer's existance is tied to Norrath existance.My Comment: A quick look shows this passage from <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=107&ss=ewer" target="_blank">http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=bo...107&ss=ewer</a>"The prophet told them to drink from the great ewer, the very vessel that sprang life to the Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds. And so they drank from the Ewer of Sul'Dae."The Ewer was used to create the Fyr'Un and Fyr'Un ran through the Celestial Worlds(be nice to have that set defined). But, my concern is that the Ewer does not seem to be constrained by the creation of Norrath if it was used to create life across the celestial worlds.Do we have any indication of a time frame specifically mentioning the creation of the Ewer?</blockquote>This quote, in the manner it was phrased; implies that there are 2 Ewers.</blockquote>It doesn't really. Why would they be told to drink from one ewer, then go drink from another instead? Sounds a lot more like great ewer is just a title for the Ewer of Sul'Dae, rather than a seperate object.

Wilin

10-01-2010, 04:44 PM

<cite></cite><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>The timeline confusions seem to stem from the use of the Ewer. Mayong supposedly existed before the gods inhabited Norrath, Anashti supposedly made the ewer as a gift to her people, and her people supposedly occupied Norrath before recieving that gift.However. We make a HEAVY assumption that Anashti was banished for her interactions with Ahket Aken, or the Silent City.This is falsely assumed.This city was born from the words of an ancient dal, a prophet of the chants of oblivion. How he came to know the shadow of nonexistent powers is unknown, but know he did.- The Tale of Ahket AkenThe city was founded by someone who followed a banished, forgotten god. She was banished due to actions involving a race much older than Silent city. Silent City was founded PRIOR to the Elddar elves getting extinguishedOnce in days long passed, days before the green turned to sand, there was a city of secrets.SO, by this we conclude that the city was built by an elf who worshipped a banished god, it's impossible that she was banished for unleashing undeath on a people that worship an already banished god.What race predated the elddar elves? None on Norrath.</blockquote>Anashti was banished before the silent city was founded. The elves of that city came to worship an unknown god. This city was founded AFTER Takish. But what we don't know is in what age Ahket Aken was founded. We do know when it fell, and unfortunately that is the only time refrence we have in all of these stories. Though, you might assume that the same king that founded the city is the same king that ruled over it when it fell so your talking about a period of a few thousand years at most...Anashti didn't need to be banised before elves existed. She needed to be banisedh before Ahket Aken was founded. Probably a whole age before that so nobody would remember Anashti's name, though it is anyone's guess how her name was forgotten in the first place. Most likely by divine intervention, though which god has that ability is anyone's guess. If any diety could do this, couldn't they also make people forget how to enter the planes as well? This seems to be a really unbelievalbe part of the lore to be perfectly honest.</blockquote>I'll ask again, does anyone have a reference that points to the creation of the Ewer?Or the event that actually lead to her banishment aside from the dialogue in the peacock series?We've always assumed that the Sul'dal were so named due to their following of Anashti'Sul. So, her crimes of immortality were likely performed after she obtained a following on Norrath. Here is a reference for ya:Lect'ZadhThe Godking Anuk is the founder of the City of Life, Ahket Aken. He is also the prophet of the lost Goddess of Life, Anashti Sul. Long ago did he discover her lost shrine within the Elddar Empire. Through her forgotten words he rose from the ranks of the Elddar Empire and cast free the Dal religions. He is the only known chosen prophet of Anashti Sul. He is the all powerful ruler of Ahket Aken and is the harbinger of the gift of Anashti Sul, the gift of undeath. The Godking Anuk resides in the Inner Temple of the royal districts of Ahket Aken.

Maergoth

10-01-2010, 09:50 PM

That snip of text and ones like it are the only reference point we have. However, we can assume from that text from key phrases like "Chants of Oblivion", "Nonexistent Powers", "Lost shrine", "Forgotten words", and the "gift of undeath" that this occured after her initial interaction with a race and the banishment resulting thereof.Sounds to me like Mr. Godking just tripped over a statue in a warehouse covered by a sheet and got obsessed with it, Anashti took notice from the void and and saw an opportunity to set in motion her freedom. She whispered to him her plans and his course of action and he followed through, renewing a faith in the forgotten god and keeping the ewer safe.I strongly remember the lack of an immediate divine presence from the very start of the city but for the life of me I can't remember what lead me to think that. I was always under the impression that the whole city was based on the influence of a god none of them ever really interacted with, that the only one Anashti talked to or had any connection to whatsoever was the godking. The whole city was already mindless zombies to begin with to believe his word so blindly.Imagine Planet of the Apes with all the silly monkeys worshipping the nuclear bomb. They had no clue the powers they were flirting with, they just found something and became fascinated with it.

Anaogi

10-01-2010, 10:28 PM

OK, maybe if I commit to the boards where I'm thinking I can sort it out. Maybe get some more sounding off it, see where I'm off.--Faceless creates universe, gods, and Roehn Theer.--Gods beat up Theer, boot him into the Void, and snag his toys for safekeeping. --Or perhaps stashed on Norrath, the battle may have taken place there.--Anashti does something ill-advised and gets voted off the island herself. --Custody of the Ewer uncertain. Possible candidates include stashed on Norrath at or near the later site of Silent City, or in Innoruuk's posession.--Innoruuk uses the Ewer to create the Ydal. --The impression is given that the 'flaw' was vampirism, and not intended...perhaps what Anashti did tainted it?--Ydal society undergoes catastrophic collapse. Details uncertain at this time. --Mayong Mistmoore, the last (or one of the last) survivors, may possibly escape to Norrath at this time. --Exact timing is unknown, this sequence is largely conjecture.--Veeshan arrives on Norrath.--Gods react to Veeshan's spawn by creating the familiar races. --Several possible reasons why. Was it to keep the Hands of Theer away from them? Was it because, as the site of Theer's defeat, it was 'sacred ground' of sorts? Or was the Ewer stashed here as well? I lean towards the latter...--The Dal would be the Eddar are notably placed around the site of the shrine to Anashti that later becomes the heart of the Silent City... --Eddar build empire in Tunaria. Eventually some of them rediscover the shrine.--It isn't explicit, but the implication is that the Ewer is not present...but may be intended to be.--Theory: The 'shrine' may have been the place the Ewer was stashed for safe-keeping, but 'borrowed' by Innoruuk for his own purposes at a later time.--Ro scorches Tunaria, turning it into (eventually) the Desert of Ro.--Perhaps to keep Norrathians from delving too deeply into things best left uncovered? If so, far too late...--...because during this time, as it turns to desert, the first void invasion occurs. This is the time of the Ethernauts. --Jal'Raeth are forced into the Void, circumstances uncertain.--Given their lack of participation noted in the Ethernaut tales, it is presumed to take place some time after. --Ewer is brought or returned to the Silent City by a D'Morte.--Whether this takes place before, after, or contemporaneous to the Jal'Raeth's banishment is unknown. --The relatively subtle Jal'Raeth establish the Obelisks of Lost Souls and (later?) Blight.--It is assumed the anchors in Ykesha survived from the first invasion.--The Jal'Raeth also appear responsible for the infiltration campaign in progress as the Age of Destiny opens. --Events of Peacock Club timeline. Ewer is broken.--Ewer remains are taken to Neriak and restored, though possibly not to original specs.--Ewer reclaimed and returned to Silent City by followers of Anashti in the wake of the second invasion, paving the way for her release from the Void.I've probably got at least a dozen things wrong or confused. Have at...

Meirril

10-02-2010, 06:47 AM

<cite>Anaogi@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>OK, maybe if I commit to the boards where I'm thinking I can sort it out. Maybe get some more sounding off it, see where I'm off.--Faceless creates universe, gods, and Roehn Theer.--Gods beat up Theer, boot him into the Void, and snag his toys for safekeeping. --Or perhaps stashed on Norrath, the battle may have taken place there.--Anashti does something ill-advised and gets voted off the island herself. --Custody of the Ewer uncertain. Possible candidates include stashed on Norrath at or near the later site of Silent City, or in Innoruuk's posession.--Innoruuk uses the Ewer to create the Ydal. --The impression is given that the 'flaw' was vampirism, and not intended...perhaps what Anashti did tainted it?--Ydal society undergoes catastrophic collapse. Details uncertain at this time. --Mayong Mistmoore, the last (or one of the last) survivors, may possibly escape to Norrath at this time. --Exact timing is unknown, this sequence is largely conjecture.--Veeshan arrives on Norrath.--Gods react to Veeshan's spawn by creating the familiar races. --Several possible reasons why. Was it to keep the Hands of Theer away from them? Was it because, as the site of Theer's defeat, it was 'sacred ground' of sorts? Or was the Ewer stashed here as well? I lean towards the latter...--The Dal would be the Eddar are notably placed around the site of the shrine to Anashti that later becomes the heart of the Silent City... --Eddar build empire in Tunaria. Eventually some of them rediscover the shrine.--It isn't explicit, but the implication is that the Ewer is not present...but may be intended to be.--Theory: The 'shrine' may have been the place the Ewer was stashed for safe-keeping, but 'borrowed' by Innoruuk for his own purposes at a later time.--Ro scorches Tunaria, turning it into (eventually) the Desert of Ro.--Perhaps to keep Norrathians from delving too deeply into things best left uncovered? If so, far too late...--...because during this time, as it turns to desert, the first void invasion occurs. This is the time of the Ethernauts. --Jal'Raeth are forced into the Void, circumstances uncertain.--Given their lack of participation noted in the Ethernaut tales, it is presumed to take place some time after. --Ewer is brought or returned to the Silent City by a D'Morte.--Whether this takes place before, after, or contemporaneous to the Jal'Raeth's banishment is unknown. --The relatively subtle Jal'Raeth establish the Obelisks of Lost Souls and (later?) Blight.--It is assumed the anchors in Ykesha survived from the first invasion.--The Jal'Raeth also appear responsible for the infiltration campaign in progress as the Age of Destiny opens. --Events of Peacock Club timeline. Ewer is broken.--Ewer remains are taken to Neriak and restored, though possibly not to original specs.--Ewer reclaimed and returned to Silent City by followers of Anashti in the wake of the second invasion, paving the way for her release from the Void.I've probably got at least a dozen things wrong or confused. Have at... </blockquote>1) Nameless creates universe, not cazic thule.2) unknown where to put Theer in the timeline. Considering that his weapons both appear in Norrath, and on the same continent and appear in the same age (blood) there is a very good argument that either a vault was raided that contained both or that Theer was banished during the age of blood on Norrath. Either way, why would the gods of Norrath bring these weapons here if the deed wasn't performed here? Unless the weapons were stolen by the Shissar in their planar raids? Then how did they find their way to Antonica? Possibly the same way the rune staff bearing planar runes found its way into an underwater city? The kedge somehow gained planar artifacts possibly stolen by the Shissar? Honestly, what is the origin of the runes in the staff that we use for the TSO story line? I'm betting the staff contains the planar runes the Shissar used to build their calendar.3) interesting quote above. Let'Zadh found and abandoned temple to Anashti'sul. Doesn't that imply that Anashti'sul had worshipers on Norrath to abandon said temple? Or was an entire temple to a non-existant diety brought to Norrath along with the Ewer? All in all, this is actually good evidence that it happens after Veeshan/rest of the races are deposited.4) Ewer is the source of undeath. Using it to create a race...I'm suprised they didn't start off as undead. Credit to where credit is due Innoruuk is a cleaver guy. But using the artifact probably implanted the seeds of Vampirism and Inny didn't have any clue what was going on until it was too late. Very typical of him too.5) Perty much accurate. Probably post-dragon for reasons above.6) Note: Veeshan DISCOVERS Norrath. Brell discovers and lets other dieties in on the discovery after Veeshan has declaired Norrath her territory. Where the other dieties were before Norrath? No idea. Maybe we'll find out when the devs run out of material?7) See answer above<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Actually the implication is the Ewer *is* present otherwise the residence of Ahket Aken couldn't of used the ewer to turn themselves into undead in an attempt to beat the Ro curse.9) Huh? Actually the void forces in several places had shadowmen infiltrators amongst the natives. Shadowmen = Jal'Raeth. Plenty of evidence of them amongst the Ethernaught stories. Last known sightings of the 6 armed guys was during EQOA which is 500 years before EQ1, which is before Ro's curse.10) Wasn't this done while Ahket Aken was still a city of the living? Back during the King's time? Or was this done after the fall of the silent city? I'm fuzzy on this.11) Obelisk of Lost Souls and assumedly other obelisks were created in the 500 years between EQ1 and EQ2, during the age of cataclysms. The anchors in Moors of Ykesha most certainly wern't around during EQ1 as the area was heavly travled and would of been discovered.12, 13, 14) recent history. 12)

Maergoth

10-02-2010, 10:18 AM

The obelisks were supposedly created long before then, according to some text from a dragon that says he watched them abduct some dragons over in velious before EQ1

Mary the Prophetess

10-02-2010, 10:36 AM

The Elddar Forest had already been turned to sand in EQoA.

Anaogi

10-02-2010, 12:31 PM

Thanks for the replies--can't believe I confused Faceless and Nameless...d'oh!Theory from what's posted...perhaps the point behind the Obelisks was to find the Ewer? Since that was the key to Anashti Sul's return (as we now know), finding that would have been her first priority...of course, after the setbacks of the first invasion, they probably hid until the Cataclysm, in order to wait and lay the groundwork for a more successful attempt.And bear in mind, if the point of the invasion was for Anashti Sul and Roehn Theer to get free of the Void...they were ultimately quite successful! Though not with the consequences either intended, to be certain...

Theladorn

10-04-2010, 02:12 PM

Probably a really dumb question, but how do New Tunaria and it's inhabitants fit into all of this? I know the elves of NT suffer from vampirism, and the Desert of Ro before it's scorching was known as Tunaria, so there's a connection there as well (however tenuous). This whole discussion is very fascinating to me even though I don't follow game lore too closely very often.

Cusashorn

10-04-2010, 08:34 PM

Directly, the New Tunarians don't have anything to do with the ewer or Anashti. They just lived in Takish Hiz before some of them moved out to build a city to worship Anashti.

Volerin

10-06-2010, 01:43 PM

I have no basis to support this thought, but is it possible that the Ewer was used by all the gods to create the races? It just strikes me as odd that only one of them would have the ability to create an artifact of such power where the others would not. It seems to be the preview of the Nameless.Perhaps they all had access to this artifact? Perhaps each used it in a differnt way? Perhaps it was used in correctly by Inny?Just throwing out some other concepts that flitted through my mind as I was catching up on all the posts on this thread.

Cusashorn

10-06-2010, 05:35 PM

<cite>Volerin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have no basis to support this thought, but is it possible that the Ewer was used by all the gods to create the races? It just strikes me as odd that only one of them would have the ability to create an artifact of such power where the others would not. It seems to be the preview of the Nameless.Perhaps they all had access to this artifact? Perhaps each used it in a differnt way? Perhaps it was used in correctly by Inny?Just throwing out some other concepts that flitted through my mind as I was catching up on all the posts on this thread.</blockquote>We know that Brell Serilis used his magical Clay of Cosgrove to create the races that worship him. Dwarves, Gnomes, Roekillik, Ratonga, Burynai, Boarfiend, etc. This gets mentioned quite often surrounding the lore of those races.

Iskandar

10-06-2010, 06:05 PM

Is it possible that the Ewer was a relic from one of the four gods (Pingyuan Diqu, Paixao, Zou Kunnen, and Aniquilacion) that Theer destroyed in the times before his banishment? Perhaps without their influence the properties of the Ewer became flawed, shifted from giving life to giving unlife. Much later, Innoruuk uses the Ewer to create the Ydal, unintentionally giving them a form of unlife as a result. Anashti could have seen the results of using the Ewer on the Ydal and decided to use it for her unlife goals as well, resulting in her banishment (with Innoruuk, unlife was an accident since he didn't know of the flaw... with Anashti, it was intentional, thus the banishment). Just a shot in the dark. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />

Rezikai

10-06-2010, 09:39 PM

<cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is it possible that the Ewer was a relic from one of the four gods (Pingyuan Diqu, Paixao, Zou Kunnen, and Aniquilacion) that Theer destroyed in the times before his banishment? Perhaps without their influence the properties of the Ewer became flawed, shifted from giving life to giving unlife. Much later, Innoruuk uses the Ewer to create the Ydal, unintentionally giving them a form of unlife as a result. Anashti could have seen the results of using the Ewer on the Ydal and decided to use it for her unlife goals as well, resulting in her banishment (with Innoruuk, unlife was an accident since he didn't know of the flaw... with Anashti, it was intentional, thus the banishment). Just a shot in the dark. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>possible.. though by Anashti's own words he's slain alot more then just 4 old gods.

Iskandar

10-07-2010, 01:52 AM

Yeah, those are just the only four we can directly confirm... and I may be wrong, but I have a suspicion that the Devs wouldn't have given us that much info on them (the Theer fight would work just the same if the runes had generic names, or no names at all) if there wasn't some role for them to play.That's what made me think one or more of them may be involved in this somehow... either as creators of the Ewer, guardians of it, or maybe they were simply bitter enough when they saw Theer coming that they decided to curse it just to spite the rest of the Pantheon. I know that if I were a god and I saw the executioner coming for me, I would NOT go down quietly, and I'd sure as heck try not to go down alone! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Maergoth

10-09-2010, 07:23 PM

Hmm.. Come to think of it, what if THOSE 4 GODS were the ones who imprisoned him? If you guys remember, it took the four most powerful dragons in the claws of Veeshan to imprison the sleeper in his statis. Seeing as how the runes were still there and destroying them not only increases his power but unleashes the true form of Roehn Theer.. that they weren't slain gods at all. He probably talks down upon their efforts, but I would be willing to bet it's the same thing.Our current pantheon seems weak compared to what would be required to subdue the godslayer. Perhaps those four gods predated even the elemental gods and was the first attempt by the nameless at creating a pantheon. It obviously didn't work out and the nameless felt a need to intervene, creating Roehn Theer. The four gods banish theer to the void and turn themselves into runes of power to restrain him, linking their fates together.Just doesn't make sense that every god Roehn Theer kills remains powerfully intact and restricting of his power. If anything, he should absorb the power of his slain enemies. I don't see a situation that would make sense for Theer to just leave these runes laying around that, if killed, make him stronger.

Triasa

10-09-2010, 07:46 PM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just doesn't make sense that every god Roehn Theer kills remains powerfully intact and restricting of his power. If anything, he should absorb the power of his slain enemies. I don't see a situation that would make sense for Theer to just leave these runes laying around that, if killed, make him stronger.</blockquote>You're right, that doesn't make sense, but there are other instances of powerful beings in game doing some strange/stupid things like that. Like the shrine in Trakanon's chamber. It's sole purpose involves negating his powers. Why would he keep something like that in there?!?

Maergoth

10-10-2010, 12:10 AM

Seems like there are just 4 forgotten gods restraining him in the form of runes. Destroying them unleashes some of his power, eventually restoring him to his complete former glory. Dead gods would have no influence on that.I don't think he specifies that he killed them, just that they were forgotten. Would make sense to me if they just all sacrificed themselves to restrain Theer.

Lorriana

10-10-2010, 05:12 AM

Or perhaps they are there because the void is where gods slain by Theer go? It seems to me that that would be a cruel joke, if the spirit/essence/whatever of those/some of those you have slain are just waiting to subdue you in what passes for an afterlife after your defeat <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Wilin

10-15-2010, 12:53 PM

For the sake of posterity, here is the quest dialogue that pertains to the Ewer's part in House D'Morte and how the Ewer came to be in the Silent City.Enjoy!-------------------You say, “Hail, The Ancille of D’Morte” the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “Who has called me from the bells of Deathtoll? “ You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “Spirit, what is your name?” the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “I have no name. Long ago I cast aside such things. Sworn to the House of D’Morte I was. Given a new life as an eternal servant to my master, Malkonis.” You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “You are the Ancille of D’Morte! “ the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “I am she, the handmaiden to the immortal master Malkonis. I await his calling within the gray of Ethernere.” You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “Where can I find Malkonis D’Morte? “ the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “My master is not to be found by the likes of you. “ You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “I seek the Ewer of Sul’Dae. Malkonis can help me find it.” the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “You seek the decanter of the Fyr’Un, the origin of undeath, the life giver of the D’Mortes. “ You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “The ewer created the D’Morte family? “ the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “The D’Mortes existed within the gates of Neriak long before they were graced with the presence of the Ewer of Sul’Dae. In their research of such an artifact of power they unleashed the gift of undeath to their bloodline. They became immortal.” You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “Did they share their gift with others of their kind? “ the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “The gift varies to those that are bestowed, but all are immortal in undeath. Such a gift the Teir’Dal empire was not ready for. The D’Morte house hid their secret, but eventually their ilk would learn and hunt them down, driving them from the empire of the Teir’Dal.” You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “Why would Malkonis give the ewer to the Godking? “ the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “The Godking pays homage to the lost goddess Anashti Sul, the power that created the Ewer of Sul’Dae. Such an artifact is highly desired by the Godking as well as the few others that know of the forgotten past. In return for safe haven from hunting ilk the ewer exchanged hands.” You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “You mentioned others that seek the ewer. Who are these others?” the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “You are an ‘other’ and those that wish to destroy the source of the Fyr’Un. Then there are those that have seen the ewer long before the Dead in Neriak procured such a prize. Beware those of ages lost. “ You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “I wish to preserve the ewer. Tell me where it is…please. “ the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “No. You wish to exchange the ewer for riches. You have no respect for it. But if you wish to face the ewer and its current owner then seek my master, Malkonis, he will help you on your way. “ You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “That’s what I asked for! Where can I find him? “ the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “As I said, you cannot find him. He will find you. Go and seek the Statue Court. Seek the ruins of the fallen behemoth in the Statue Court and my master shall come to you. Our words are at an end. I await my return the Ethernere, to the sweet song of the Deathtoll, sweet, sweet song.” You say to the Ancille of D’Morte, “Farewell, Ancille of D’Morte.” You say, “Hail, The Ancille of D’Morte” the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “Can you hear the bells of the Deathtoll? Can you hear them ringing for us?”

Trevalon

10-16-2010, 12:23 AM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm.. Come to think of it, what if THOSE 4 GODS were the ones who imprisoned him? If you guys remember, it took the four most powerful dragons in the claws of Veeshan to imprison the sleeper in his statis. Seeing as how the runes were still there and destroying them not only increases his power but unleashes the true form of Roehn Theer.. that they weren't slain gods at all. He probably talks down upon their efforts, but I would be willing to bet it's the same thing.Our current pantheon seems weak compared to what would be required to subdue the godslayer. Perhaps those four gods predated even the elemental gods and was the first attempt by the nameless at creating a pantheon. It obviously didn't work out and the nameless felt a need to intervene, creating Roehn Theer. The four gods banish theer to the void and turn themselves into runes of power to restrain him, linking their fates together.Just doesn't make sense that every god Roehn Theer kills remains powerfully intact and restricting of his power. If anything, he should absorb the power of his slain enemies. I don't see a situation that would make sense for Theer to just leave these runes laying around that, if killed, make him stronger.</blockquote>I find this theory to be very plausible.

kelvmor

10-16-2010, 11:06 AM

The_Cheeseman

10-21-2010, 12:18 AM

the Ancille of D’Morte says to you, “You are an ‘other’ and those that wish to destroy the source of the Fyr’Un. Then there are those that have seen the ewer long before the Dead in Neriak procured such a prize. Beware those of ages lost. “I think this line here refers to Mayong Mistmoore, as you meet an emissary of Mistmoore in the Peacock Club timeline, and it is well known that Mayong dislikes the D'Morte clan and considers them less than he and his own vampiric bloodline.

Lodrelhai

11-23-2010, 07:35 AM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>The timeline confusions seem to stem from the use of the Ewer. Mayong supposedly existed before the gods inhabited Norrath, Anashti supposedly made the ewer as a gift to her people, and her people supposedly occupied Norrath before recieving that gift.However. We make a HEAVY assumption that Anashti was banished for her interactions with Ahket Aken, or the Silent City.This is falsely assumed.This city was born from the words of an ancient dal, a prophet of the chants of oblivion. How he came to know the shadow of nonexistent powers is unknown, but know he did.- The Tale of Ahket AkenThe city was founded by someone who followed a banished, forgotten god. She was banished due to actions involving a race much older than Silent city. Silent City was founded PRIOR to the Elddar elves getting extinguishedOnce in days long passed, days before the green turned to sand, there was a city of secrets.SO, by this we conclude that the city was built by an elf who worshipped a banished god, it's impossible that she was banished for unleashing undeath on a people that worship an already banished god.What race predated the elddar elves? None on Norrath.</blockquote>Anashti was banished before the silent city was founded. The elves of that city came to worship an unknown god. This city was founded AFTER Takish. But what we don't know is in what age Ahket Aken was founded. We do know when it fell, and unfortunately that is the only time refrence we have in all of these stories. Though, you might assume that the same king that founded the city is the same king that ruled over it when it fell so your talking about a period of a few thousand years at most...Anashti didn't need to be banised before elves existed. She needed to be banisedh before Ahket Aken was founded. Probably a whole age before that so nobody would remember Anashti's name, though it is anyone's guess how her name was forgotten in the first place. Most likely by divine intervention, though which god has that ability is anyone's guess. If any diety could do this, couldn't they also make people forget how to enter the planes as well? This seems to be a really unbelievalbe part of the lore to be perfectly honest.</blockquote>I'll ask again, does anyone have a reference that points to the creation of the Ewer?Or the event that actually lead to her banishment aside from the dialogue in the peacock series?We've always assumed that the Sul'dal were so named due to their following of Anashti'Sul. So, her crimes of immortality were likely performed after she obtained a following on Norrath. Here is a reference for ya:Lect'ZadhThe Godking Anuk is the founder of the City of Life, Ahket Aken. He is also the prophet of the lost Goddess of Life, Anashti Sul. Long ago did he discover her lost shrine within the Elddar Empire. Through her forgotten words he rose from the ranks of the Elddar Empire and cast free the Dal religions. He is the only known chosen prophet of Anashti Sul. He is the all powerful ruler of Ahket Aken and is the harbinger of the gift of Anashti Sul, the gift of undeath. The Godking Anuk resides in the Inner Temple of the royal districts of Ahket Aken.</blockquote>We also have word from <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=411844�">Jindrack</a>:Anashti Sul, the original Prime Healer, was sentenced to non-existence by the other gods when she unwittingly released undeath upon the inhabitants of early Norrath. Rodcet Nife would be later appointed to take her place.There's three things I'd like to note about that quote:1) While it spells out the reason for her banishment, it says nothing about the creation of the Ewer. Which means the Ewer could have existed in the planar realms or on other worlds for ages without end prior to Anashti Sul's banishment.2) Her punishment was for releasing undeath, not creating it. So it's possible undeath (like the Ewer?) existed on other worlds or planar realms (like Mystmyr?), and the Norrathian pantheon either didn't care about those other places or couldn't do anything about them, if they had no following/influence in those other places.3) She didn't do it on purpose. Now, whether she originallly created undeath on purpose is still debateable, but she didn't intend to bring it here. It's also possible that the Ewer was used successfully to give immortality in other places, and something about bringing its waters to Norrath (bad reaction to ambient magics, it'd only previously been used in planar realms and doesn't work in the mortal realm, sabotage from someone else) resulted in that strange mockery of immortality known as unlife.I bring those up because I'm seeing a lot of mentions that she created undeath on purpose, and I haven't seen any quoted sources. I know that now her followers consider it her ultimate gift, but that always struck me as an "Oops! That's not what I... oh hey, that's pretty neat!" thing. I'm also seeing mention that she immediately used it on her followers, and was immediately punished for it - again, without any quoted references.Given this, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if she created this thing - maybe with the help of other gods (Inny?) - and the first test cases worked out fine; or at least seemed to. The Ydal could well have been one of those first cases.. Given the quote of the Fyr'Un running through the celestial realms and the Ewer being its source, Innoruuk might not have even needed to borrow the Ewer to get the water needed to create the Ydal. Seeing such successes as an actual race created from her gift (and the fatal flaw either not yet manifested or purposefully hidden), Anashti could then give out the blessing to those on the mortal realm with high expectations - and unexpected results.Or heck, her "releasing" undeath on Norrath could have been Innoruuk putting the Ydal there, and when they start sucking blood, he pointed at Anashti and started yelling, "It's her fault! She tainted my creations!"Then again, I remain a firm believer in the "Norrath before Norrath" theory - the idea that Norrath was populated before the First Brood, got destroyed in some cataclysm that made it uninhabitable for anything not immortal (and probably not pleasant for those survivors that were), and was basically left for dead by the first pantheon (or what remained of them). Veeshan came along later, thought "Hey, I can do something with this," and started terraforming - at which point the other gods took interest. We know the Ydal were created in Hate, but not if that was also where they died; we know there were gods we've never heard of before ours, including the first God of Pestillence and at least 4 others; and we know there was <a href="http://everquest2.com/news/read/032009/2094" target="_blank">a time when the mortals lived in terror of their gods</a>, which to the best of our knowledge could maybe be applied to the 1st Rallosian War - which was only fear of one god and his forces, and didn't involve the other gods until the Rallosians hit the planes, so doesn't really match either.