ghost cities, let us sacrifice the guild broker

[Odys]

<p>Cities turning into ghost town was expected when the guild hall got released and i think it harms the environment. Removing tradeskill amenities or traveling ones would hurt all of us, so what could we give up?</p><p>Well the broker removal could bring people out and it won't make our lifes so much more complicated. This would allows new players to at least others players -- and better to interact.</p>

[erin]

<p><cite>Orfeu@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Cities turning into ghost town was expected when the guild hall got released and i think it harms the environment. Removing tradeskill amenities or traveling ones would hurt all of us, so what could we give up?</p><p>Well the broker removal could bring people out and it won't make our lifes so much more complicated. This would allows new players to at least others players -- and better to interact.</p></blockquote><p>Why?  What harm does it do to the "environment"?  i have never undestood the argument that 3 people standing AFK not talking or interacting with anyone at the broker somehow makes for a lively environment.  Which is what we had before.  Just put some NPCs around the broker, and tada, same effect.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>erin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Which is what we had before.  Just put some NPCs around the broker, and tada, same effect.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00ccff;">lol</span></p>

[thecynic315]

<p><cite>erin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Orfeu@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Cities turning into ghost town was expected when the guild hall got released and i think it harms the environment. Removing tradeskill amenities or traveling ones would hurt all of us, so what could we give up?</p><p>Well the broker removal could bring people out and it won't make our lifes so much more complicated. This would allows new players to at least others players -- and better to interact.</p></blockquote><p>Why?  What harm does it do to the "environment"?  i have never undestood the argument that 3 people standing AFK not talking or interacting with anyone at the broker somehow makes for a lively environment.  Which is what we had before.  Just put some NPCs around the broker, and tada, same effect.</p></blockquote><p>Well at least 2 of them would have to be on a mount and standing DIRECTLY ontop of the <broker> to be the same.</p><p>On the other hand, seeing others moving about, running jumping, hailing, doing stuff does have a positive effect in that it makes it seem as if there are people around in the game.</p>

[Nighrbringer]

<p>I can guarentee you that lower level people see plenty of higher level characters while playing. The lower level dungeons, such as Stormhold or Fallen Gate are full of them.</p>

[Kalliand]

maybe the cities are dead, but every guild i've been in has had a lot of people in guild hall talking and running around. A few even have constant visitors. Before server transfer I even visited other guild halls a lot. I really enjoy how it is now.

[M0rticia]

<p>If you removed brokers from the guild halls, nothing is really going to change. In 5 years of playing this game, I have NEVER struck up a conversation with some random person at the city broker. Just because you have strangers standing around you, doesn't mean it's an 'environment'. Besides, I got sick of having to squeeze my way in to hail the broker. Some morons always decide to stand on top of the broker and go AFK.</p><p>I live in Gorowyn now and since most people have some weird, unknown (to me) personal issue with Gorowyn, it's usually empty anyway. I use my guild hall broker and, on occasion the Gorowyn/EFP brokers if I am passing through and want to check my sales.</p><p>Having city only brokers again isn't going to change anything. I get 99% of my 'community involvement' in guild chat, 70-79 and 1-9 channels (yes, I am a glutton for punishment sometimes. lol).</p>

[scruffylookin]

<p><cite>erin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Orfeu@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Cities turning into ghost town was expected when the guild hall got released and i think it harms the environment. Removing tradeskill amenities or traveling ones would hurt all of us, so what could we give up?</p><p>Well the broker removal could bring people out and it won't make our lifes so much more complicated. This would allows new players to at least others players -- and better to interact.</p></blockquote><p>Why?  What harm does it do to the "environment"?  i have never undestood the argument that 3 people standing AFK not talking or interacting with anyone at the broker somehow makes for a lively environment.  Which is what we had before.  Just put some NPCs around the broker, and tada, same effect.</p></blockquote><p>Very funny. And it's indeed a good point. I used to be on the other side of this debate, but I changed my mind. My main lives in Qeynos and I usually play very late at night... even with guild halls, it's extremely rare that I've seen nobody at the broker in Q. Usually, there are several.</p><p>However, giving the OP the benefit of the doubt here...  I'd rather see "empty city" problem fixed by turning the two most dead cities (Freeport and Qeynos) into adventure zones. Let Qeynos and Freeport go to war. Have Freeport mobs openly invading Qeynos, and vice versa. Then players could get quests to help defend the cities. They could all be repeatable quests, with generated mobs that match the level of the person on the quest (like they did in antonica during Halloween). Then you'd have players of all levels in the cities actually doing stuff instead of standing in front of a broker. Let the brokers (to escape the carnage) move to the TS and Nek docks, along with bankers. Those places are hubs anyway, so the OP wouldn't have the emptiness when checking brokers.</p>

[Jrral]

<p>I don't think forcing people to use the brokers in the cities will help. At best you'll end up with the cities being ghost towns except for a cluster of characters standing around the broker not talking to each other or doing anything visible. That's hardly going to help.</p><p>The cities are deserted because we play <em>adventurers</em>. The kind of people who go out and kick Miragul in his own phylactery, or who go pull Najena's chestnuts out of the fire <em>again</em>, aren't the kind of people who spend a lot of time at home. Cities are a convenient place for them to go when they need to stock up on supplies or repair their gear, and as soon as that's taken care of they're heading back out where the action and adventure is again. The only time you should see a lot of adventurers in the city (aside from holiday celebrations) is when something really unusual is happening, and that's usually bad news for the city.</p><p>Given that, if you want characters active in the cities you need to give them adventure content in the cities. You don't want Qeynos constantly under attack, though. It's the capital city, if that's happening Antonia needs to fire the Guard and the Concordium and hire competent people for her security forces. But there used to be a lot of small quests in the cities suitable for low-level characters to run to get acquainted with the layout and get some levels before heading out into the wilds. But I don't see being able to do much that'll have level 80s running around. There just shouldn't <em>be</em> that much that calls for high-level adventurers in the cities for any length of time.</p><p>Edit: How would I design high-level quests in the cities? I'd look to stuff like the Ghoulbane HQ. It starts with an innocuous little low-level Fedex quest from Nettleville, and leads into the big quest. I'd design starter quests for the big HQs and questlines that'd involve a bit of running around the city to either gather information or have things made that'd reveal the bigger quest. Maybe some things that involved in-city instances (there's some around already for betrayal), or some delayed updates (eg. the wait for Minty Frostbeard in the DWB HQ).</p>

[Yimway]

<p>There are multiple threads on this, why another?</p>

[Mikai]

<p>Since guild halls came out, I've seen this topic come up fairly regularly.  And it's the same thing each time.  All of us in favor of guild halls as they are make the point repeatedly that standing around in a city afk is not interaction.  Before guild halls, I never once talked to some random stranger at the banker or broker.  not once.  My interaction came from guild, groups, and the occasional bold interjections in channel chat.  the fact remains, I, and I'm sure few of us, indeed, will strike up conversation with random strangers at the broker.</p><p>At the guild broker is another matter altogether.  I know these people.  I know which wardens I can ask for sow.  I know the people around my level i can group with.  These people I know and we have had many a snowball fight in front of our guild broker.  Would that happen in a city?  heck no!  I'd save my snowballs for people I really like (and know they just ran out so they can't fight back).  Guild halls were wonderful additions that improved the unity of guilds.  It gives us a place to band together and call home, a place to relax, and a place to party and celebrate the big events in our guild.  I wouldn't change a thing, personally.  (ok, i might change some minor things, but, all in all, leave guild halls alone)</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Imkai@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since guild halls came out, I've seen this topic come up fairly regularly.  And it's the same thing each time.  All of us in favor of guild halls as they are make the point repeatedly that standing around in a city afk is not interaction.  Before guild halls, I never once talked to some random stranger at the banker or broker.  not once.  My interaction came from guild, groups, and the occasional bold interjections in channel chat.  the fact remains, I, and I'm sure few of us, indeed, will strike up conversation with random strangers at the broker.</p></blockquote><p>Fact is, I was 100x more likely to strike up conversation with someone in 70-79 than whoever was idle next to me at the broker.  In fact, I noticed several times I spoke with someone in server chat and THEN realized they were standing 10 feet from me.</p><p>I find no value in increasing traffic in city zones.</p>

[Morgane]

<p><cite>Imkai@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since guild halls came out, I've seen this topic come up fairly regularly.  And it's the same thing each time.  All of us in favor of guild halls as they are make the point repeatedly that standing around in a city afk is not interaction.  Before guild halls, I never once talked to some random stranger at the banker or broker.  not once.  My interaction came from guild, groups, and the occasional bold interjections in channel chat.  the fact remains, I, and I'm sure few of us, indeed, will strike up conversation with random strangers at the broker.</p><p>At the guild broker is another matter altogether.  I know these people.  I know which wardens I can ask for sow.  I know the people around my level i can group with.  These people I know and we have had many a snowball fight in front of our guild broker.  Would that happen in a city?  heck no!  I'd save my snowballs for people I really like (and know they just ran out so they can't fight back).  Guild halls were wonderful additions that improved the unity of guilds.  It gives us a place to band together and call home, a place to relax, and a place to party and celebrate the big events in our guild.  I wouldn't change a thing, personally.  (ok, i might change some minor things, but, all in all, leave guild halls alone)</p></blockquote><p>Agree.</p>

[Peysel]

<p>Using the Guild Hall Broker removes the extra 20% broker fee for foreign cities, which is why I prefer to use that one for pricing up and seeing what's on sale.  I like standing with guildies at our Broker, we get to play around and stuff, the hall is a meeting place for our various toons between quests, it's our Home now.</p><p>Instead of removing the Guild Hall Broker, I think they should find another reason to have players of all levels visiting their aligned cities. </p><p>None of the level 80 writs are given out in our home towns now, so adding those would be a start don't you think?  I think it was a bad idea having them in Kylong Plains and Moors of Ykesha, they should move them back to the home towns, in fact all the writs should be handed out just outside the equivalent of Antonia or Lucan's residence, IMO.  </p><p>One of the biggest problems with Qeynos and Freeport is the zoning between various parts, in an ideal world I would love to see that changed so they shared the same zone as Antonica and Commonlands, move the brokers and remove the crafting instances so there would be just one crafting area near a broker & bank.  That in itself would change the feel of the place and might encourage more people to use it.  Also the various crafters that prefer to use the cities would be using the same broker, bank and crafting area which would add even more life in those areas of the city.</p><p>There needs to be more tasks that take place in the cities themselves, phat lewtz are pretty much the only way to lure the adventurers in, just look at how Lavastorm has become a bustling area since the revamp added level 80 stuff.</p><p>How about some high level Shiny collections in the home cities?  Coin collections perhaps?  People are always dropping something in their rush about town. </p><p>Perhaps they could add some new crafter type quests similar to the Moors faction ones which involve harvesting bits around town before crafting the item.</p><p>When they add a new land they should add transport ships from QH and EF to get to them and make it the only way to get there, no druid portals, no wizard teleports, those can be added to somewhere attached to that place or much deeper in.  People will automatically gravitate to the broker and banker there if they forget things while waiting for the transport to arrive.</p><p>Some kind of daily quest scaled to adventure level should involve the home town.  Why do quest starters always have to be in new lands?  Have people come home to pick up and hand in their daily quest, or a couple of whole quest lines, but don't make them spend forever travelling for one little update, that's annoying, give them a series of goals in the quest that they can fulfil before returning home.  Show all the steps in the quest helper so the player knows what to expect.</p>

[Spyderbite]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There are multiple threads on this, why another?</p></blockquote><p>I gotta ask the same question. Why another post? This comes up monthly.. and always ends with a few people getting butt hurt because most people are in guilds and completely content with how things currently are.</p><p>Want more people around you.. join a guild or make friends. Being ignored by a bunch of strangers hardly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.</p>

[Mikkachu]

<p>I'm in one of those one-person guilds for storage space (in my defense, it wasn't a one person guild when I joined it- but everyone left to try the PVP servers when they came out and never returned (dun dun dun?)).  Very helpful to level up my transmuter, as I shove everyone's junk in there (as I craft, my shared bank is basically full of harvests).  I haven't quite gotten a high enough level to get a guildhall yet, and I'm not sure if I'll even buy one if I *do* get that high of level.</p><p>So that means I'm in the city all the time.  And honestly?  There are still enough people on their mounts going AFK on top of the SFP broker and banker that I get frusterated enough to hop over to EFP (or actually, NFP, as East's broker can have the same problem) on occasion so I can actually do what I want to do without having to make targeting macros.  And on the times that I can get to the broker and banker without being blocked, I really don't miss them.  The only thing I miss is hearing the snarky comments towards other races that I'd occasionally catch (there's a kerran, in paticular, who likes to wander through the area and whine about my erudite and make psudeo-philosophical comments about anyone else who might be hanging around): and from what I understand, most people actually find those comments annoying not ridiculously entertaining.</p><p>1-9 and 70-79 were always where the action was.  I never stopped and talked to people at the broker/banker with me, or at the crafting tables with me, save for to occasionally ask them to move if they were blocking things.  I mean, seriously: I do all my crafting in the city areas rather then instances, and I think twice in my time playing this game (and I have four year rewards) have I ever heard a 'grats' for crafter dings.  I'm guessing you get a lot more 'Woohoo!  Awesome!  Gj!  Grats!' in a guild when you level then when surrounded by stations.</p><p>I mean, seriously: I think that making reasons for people to come to the city's more would be nice.  But I think maybe poking at new quests and options that start from there would be nicer- and less frusterating- then taking away what guilds have earned so far.</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Orfeu@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Cities turning into ghost town was expected when the guild hall got released and i think it harms the environment. Removing tradeskill amenities or traveling ones would hurt all of us, so what could we give up?</p><p>Well the broker removal could bring people out and it won't make our lifes so much more complicated. This would allows new players to at least others players -- and better to interact.</p></blockquote><p>Yes because seeing Fabled out Mythicaled walking advertisements for hardcore raid guilds collected around Brokers really gave that sense of "immersion" I'm missing.</p><p>I see people running around from time-to-time in cities but I did not define my enjoyment of the game around seeing decked out folks with 30 particle effects running simultaneously all parked around the broker to be "game changing". <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kunaak]

<p>I am gonna go out on a limb here and say I agree to some degree here...</p><p>guild halls have severly altered the feel of playing in and around cities, since you basically never see anyone there anymore. part of the fun for me, when playing alts at lower levels, was just randomly meeting people, and see all this activity going on. people tradeskilling, doing thier broker and banking stuff, doing whatever they did.</p><p>now, cities are truely ghost towns, thats definatly true.</p><p>sacrificing the guild broker isnt really gonna change that, but its really sad that guild halls really are just seperating players from other players.</p>

[erin]

<p><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am gonna go out on a limb here and say I agree to some degree here...</p><p>guild halls have severly altered the feel of playing in and around cities, since you basically never see anyone there anymore. part of the fun for me, when playing alts at lower levels, was just randomly meeting people, and see all this activity going on. people tradeskilling, doing thier broker and banking stuff, doing whatever they did.</p><p>now, cities are truely ghost towns, thats definatly true.</p><p>sacrificing the guild broker isnt really gonna change that, but its really sad that guild halls really are just seperating players from other players.</p></blockquote><p>I think guild halls are bringing people together.  People who have chosen to associate with each other now run into each other randomly in their guildhalls.  Its great!  I just don't know who these people are that interact with complete strangers while standing at the broker, I know in the 4+ years I've played, its probably happened to me once, maybe twice.  I've gotten as many tells from random strangers across the world.  What a loss!</p><p>Guild halls are community builders.  If you want a community, join one.</p>

[Odys]

<p>Funny how you all play .... When i started i remember ooc in the newbie zone (that was kelethin too) and chatting near the broker, teasing evil races, asking advices, getting help and even free stuff ...</p><p>I remember crafters offering me to make me my spells, or to craft me something for free. I remember high level people logging on their low reroll to play a bit with me and so on.</p><p>Seing people, doing emote and using say was much better than the worldwide channel ...</p><p>Probably none of you see the problem since all "new" players are either reroll or friends. But this mean quick decline for Eq2.</p><p>I remember how busy where  20-29, 30-39 channels .. 18 monthes ago ... It was impossible to miss stormhold, runny or varsoon departures were almost as frequent than TSO ones today. I m still on all the channels and most are dead.</p>

[Avanya]

<p>It never ceases to amaze me that people always want to solve their problems by taking away from others.  Class A is jealous of Class B so Class A advocates Class B being nerfed INSTEAD of asking that Class A be enhanced.  I can understand that town populations are drastically lowered by the guild halls but why take away from the guilds who have them?  Players have donated millions of status (I donated 13 million just to start it out and donate 2 or 3 million every so often) and huge amounts of plat to create their guild hall.  Do you really think they're going to feel "friendly" after being turned out of their guild halls to stand around at town brokers "chatting" so towns aren't so empty?  (oh yes, and don't forget about the horses' rear ends!) lol  Kind of defeats the purpose of having "friendly" people around to talk to.</p><p>If you're forced out there to use the broker, you might as well use the vendor 3 feet away, and well...the banker is 2 doors over and hmmm, what did we buy a guild hall for?</p><p>I agree with those that have suggested various quests and events to bring people back to towns.  Let's add to things, not take things away all the time.</p>

[Nayawk]

<p>To a certain extent I agree with the OP, but not with the solution.</p><p>Dead cities are an issue and the main impact is on new players. Look at the trial/newb threads and there are plenty of posts questioning if this game is dead/dying because they have been playing for a few days and seen no other players. </p><p>Given that a tiny amount of the actual player base for computer games ever post on forums, for off line comes its as low as 1-2%, for online its higher but struggles to get into the double figures, it is easy to see that new players will/could never even investigate why the game seems so dead, and just log off and write it off as a game to old to make the effort with.</p><p>We all know that the game is now so very much guild driven, but how are they to know that? They aren't coming here to find that out.</p><p>And I don't know about you but I'm happy for all the new players this game can get.</p><p>And its not about interaction.. you don't have to talk to other players for the world to feel alive, but you do have to see them occasionally.</p><p>But as I said I don't think the broker is the answer.  I liked the idea of making the cities more of a quest hub, the cities certainly have a buzz whenever there is a special holiday event located in the cities.  Give characters of all levels a good rewarding reason to run around in the city.</p>

[Zarador]

<p>At one time players that were in a Guild had no choice.  Do tasks for a city, get some *personal* rewards and pretty much go about the same routines in the city that everyone else, guilded or not did.  The actual cohesiveness of being in a guild was more roleplay than anything else.  Here's a 5 room house, pretend it's a "Guild Hall" and meet there.</p><p>Now it's a real "Guild Hall" where people earn rewards and amenities that make it truely functional and interactive. Let me check the Broker, meet up with a Guild Crafter regardless of their city alignment, drop some things in the harvest depot and port off with some guild members to do some adventuring. Depending on the size of the Guild and their motivation there can be many other perks that allow them to do routine tasks while in the company of those who also helped to build the hall and with whom they interact with the most.  Kick around a training dummy while someone knocks off some crafting writs while another player maintains or utilizes the library.</p><p>Yet some people can't be content knowing that others rather be in the company of friends, not strangers. Their "lone wolf's" that refuse to travel with the pack.  On the other hand, they get back to town and whine that it's deserted.  They don't desire the "baggage" of a guild, yet they desire to see that "baggage" strewn about the portals, crafting areas, brokers and banks. Slap a horses butt in my face and I feel like the world is once again alive.That is of course until I write my thread about making players dismount when their around brokers and bankers!</p><p>Most of the game is about building your character and being rewarded for your efforts.  Ironically, we still have people that feel that those that earned the right to use such amenities should be forced to engage in one of the less rewarding aspects of the game just to accommodate their desire to see people standing about in some common location so they can pretend their interacting with strangers in a huge city.</p><p>Either gain access to a Guild Hall with amenities or accept that the majority of players (based on these threads) have chosen to do so and move on.  If enough players felt that standing around in a town was where the fun was at, then this thread would not even exist.</p>

[erin]

<p><cite>Orfeu@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Funny how you all play .... When i started i remember ooc in the newbie zone (that was kelethin too) and chatting near the broker, teasing evil races, asking advices, getting help and even free stuff ...</p></blockquote><p>Are you sure that was eq2?</p><p><cite>Orfeu@Storms wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>I remember crafters offering me to make me my spells, or to craft me something for free. I remember high level people logging on their low reroll to play a bit with me and so on.</p></blockquote><p>This has nothing to do with "physically" seeing the people.  This still happens.  I make free spells for people.  Especially if you ask in crafting channels.  Sure, in the days of yore, you had to come find me and I'd make it but we have conveniences like a working mail system now.  I don't see how this has anything to do with this discussion.</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Orfeu@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Funny how you all play .... When i started i remember ooc in the newbie zone (that was kelethin too) and chatting near the broker, teasing evil races, asking advices, getting help and even free stuff ...</p><p>I remember crafters offering me to make me my spells, or to craft me something for free. I remember high level people logging on their low reroll to play a bit with me and so on.</p><p>Seing people, doing emote and using say was much better than the worldwide channel ...</p></blockquote><p>All of this is possible in the worldwide channels, class channels, crafting channels, etc. And you get BETTER advice. Class advice is written up in detail here in Class forums and also over on Flames.</p><p>I love Guild Halls, love how it has brought our guild together and and made us more cohesive. It really feels like a guild rather than just a chatroom bolted on that gives a few rewards like special mounts.</p><p>I'm sure SoE has some ideas in the works on how to add some city-only items that will be interesting. If time and money were no object, I'd say revamp Qeynos and Freeport each into 1-2 big zones. I know it would require a massive amount of effort though. Probably a year's solid effort considering how many quests start, update, and/or complete in the various suburbs.</p>

[Zarador]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Orfeu@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Funny how you all play .... When i started i remember ooc in the newbie zone (that was kelethin too) and chatting near the broker, teasing evil races, asking advices, getting help and even free stuff ...</p><p>I remember crafters offering me to make me my spells, or to craft me something for free. I remember high level people logging on their low reroll to play a bit with me and so on.</p><p>Seing people, doing emote and using say was much better than the worldwide channel ...</p></blockquote><p>All of this is possible in the worldwide channels, class channels, crafting channels, etc. And you get BETTER advice. Class advice is written up in detail here in Class forums and also over on Flames.</p></blockquote><p>Funny thing about it, as I recall both in EQ Live and in Everquest II, the hardest reply/response to get from an individual was in the banks/brokers as most players were AFK or simply ignored you.  People tended to go there and then take a short break from the game to attend to real life.</p>