Why does it appear SOE hates Paladins?

[Befallen_Valgav]

<div>Let me start by saying I am not trying to bash paladins. I love the concept. I have a paladin at level 54...I have a SK at level 80. That being said, I am trying very hard to make a paladin work.Perhaps Im looking at it wrong but it seems to me that SOE has a major hate on for paladins. Extreme lack of class balance IMO. SK"s get evac, FD, power tap and ungodly hate gain ability with their mythcial seem to heal faster while doing damage than Paladins do. What do Paladins have that compares to those? I do not have a clue on paladin Mythical yet. I guess Im wondering a couple things...can paladins become as "uber" as SKs can they solo like SKs? Are Paladins "late bloomers" like Coercers? As I stated above I love the concept of a paladin and the challange of being able to become a good paladin is what is driving me right now, because Ive always believed that most of the time the "class" is not broken its the players inablity to play the class right. Hopefully someone can help me figure out these issues...without bashing my head in like I'm a baby seal. <img title="Smiley Happy" src="http://eq2flames.com/images/smilies/smiley-happy.gif" border="0" /></div>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<p>Well I wouldn't say "Hate" exactly.  The problem is that a class that can take a beating, transfer 40+ % hate from another class continually, and has actual heals rather than lifetaps, is very easy to overpower, and SoE is being cautious.  Thats my opinion anyway.</p><p>A paladin can tank in defensive stance without losing aggro.  That by itself is a huge advantage over the other 5 tanks - all your AA, Gear choices etc can be focused purely on survivability.  The mythic helps in this, in that it reduces incoming damage.</p><p>Unfortunately this steady state survivability is matched by joke emergency/spike abilities, and SoE look to be pretty cautious about giving us anything that would improve this enough to allow us to compete with warriors - That they completely overpowered SKs after neglecting them for years is a mistake they aren't likely to repeat.</p><p>SK solo better - not having to actually stop attacking to cast heals, and having better debuffs and a snare certainly help.  Tap Veins/Arteries + enchanced Deathtouch >>> Lay of Hands for example.  Neither class is ideal for soloing heroics, but normal "solo" content - neither class really has a problem.</p><p>In a group/raid setting Paladins tanking look to do more with less buffs.  DPS though, SKs >>> Paladins.</p><p>Mind you, I wouldn't go overboard comparing the classes in their current state.  SKs will be nerfed.  Its just a question of when.</p>

[Stonestrong]

<p>These are the kind of threads that are useless and most probably make them not want to fix anything. You should address things you think are broken and make your case in that way. Not making a random soe hates XXXXX class thread.</p><p>Stone</p>

[Befallen_Valgav]

<p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>These are the kind of threads that are useless and most probably make them not want to fix anything. You should address things you think are broken and make your case in that way. Not making a random soe hates XXXXX class thread.</p><p>Stone</p></blockquote><p> Perhaps you should re-read the post. I was not bashing the paladin in particular. But let me make it clearer....how are the paladins "equal" to the SKs.</p><p>SK's get FD- what do paladins get that compare</p><p>SK's get powertap - what do paladins that compare</p><p>SK's get evac--- what do paladins get that compare</p><p>I was attempting to find out a couple of things...</p><p>How to play a paladin better, to figure out if Im missing how a paladin compares to SK's what abilties a paladin get's taht compares to some of the SK's ablities.</p><p>I applogize if you think I was tryin to purely bash paladins and create a useless thread...that was not my intention. I have a 80 SK...Im tryin to play a paladin now. Ive seen 2 very good paladins (pre-tso) and I would like to become very good at the class (if I can) and I am seeking assisstance to understand the class better.</p><p>As I stated in the OP Ive always believed that most of the time the "class" is not broken its the player's inablity to play the clas right...and I dont want to become a "bad" paladin.</p><p>Helpful advice, ideas, suggestions, whatever welcome.</p><p>Not to mention Ive always figured if you a useless bashing post the last thing you want to do is bash the basher...that does nothing but draw more attention to the post. Just my opinion</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>The problem is you're looking at the situation wrong.  Paladins aren't underpowered at all--they're quite in line with guards and zerkers overall.  Shadowknights are just obscenely overpowered.</p>

[Stonestrong]

<p><cite>Befallen_Valgav wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>These are the kind of threads that are useless and most probably make them not want to fix anything. You should address things you think are broken and make your case in that way. Not making a random soe hates XXXXX class thread.</p><p>Stone</p></blockquote><p> Perhaps you should re-read the post. I was not bashing the paladin in particular. But let me make it clearer....how are the paladins "equal" to the SKs.</p><p>SK's get FD- what do paladins get that compare</p><p>SK's get powertap - what do paladins that compare</p><p>SK's get evac--- what do paladins get that compare</p><p>I was attempting to find out a couple of things...</p><p>How to play a paladin better, to figure out if Im missing how a paladin compares to SK's what abilties a paladin get's taht compares to some of the SK's ablities.</p><p>I applogize if you think I was tryin to purely bash paladins and create a useless thread...that was not my intention. I have a 80 SK...Im tryin to play a paladin now. Ive seen 2 very good paladins (pre-tso) and I would like to become very good at the class (if I can) and I am seeking assisstance to understand the class better.</p><p>As I stated in the OP Ive always believed that most of the time the "class" is not broken its the player's inablity to play the clas right...and I dont want to become a "bad" paladin.</p><p>Helpful advice, ideas, suggestions, whatever welcome.</p><p>Not to mention Ive always figured if you a useless bashing post the last thing you want to do is bash the basher...that does nothing but draw more attention to the post. Just my opinion</p></blockquote><p>I wasn't implying you were bashing the paladin class. I was saying you didn't really bring up specific example of anything and just made a blanket "SOE hates my class" post. In your rebuttal to my post you actually listed a few examples, albeit those are far from the things I think need to be addressed.</p><p>SKs get Fd- Pallys get a Rez</p><p>SKs get Evac- Pallys get a self cure</p><p>SKs get- Powertap- Pallys get Sigil of Heroism</p><p>The things you listed as Sks getting are nothign special. Those abilities do not make them a better class just a different class. If you want to list off things that are better than what we get it would be Shadowknight's Furor, Reaver, Bloodletter, Deathmarch, and Unholy Voracity......</p><p>Stone</p>

[Befallen_Valgav]

<p>Actually yes I mentioned all those issues in my OP...however...Ill continue to work my paladin.</p><p>IM hoping I can find a way to make it work for ME and become a good one.</p>

[Meirril]

<p>So, what does a paladin get?</p><p>Amends.</p><p>Kind of the end-all be-all for the class. Since you can master 2 the spell, no real reason not to.</p><p>We control agro like nobody else's business. Also in group or solo content our self heals can make a difference. In raid content...heals are not really recomended. Not only are they power hogs, they are also very slow and very interruptable.</p><p>We're also masters of the shield. Go hero line and get the shield block bonus.</p><p>Paladins up until TSO were the masters of group agro management. Now? We're still better than a bezerker at picking up non-grouped adds but SKs have gotten a lot of improvements in this department. I'd have to give them a nod.</p><p>In general, we're more survivable than an SK. While we can't get as much snap agro, our normal agro generation is better than any other fighter with the right assist class. Choose your amends target wisely and you should do fine.</p><p>Our rez spell is very rarely useful. Our death prevention is a joke. Our snap agro abilities have improved greatly. I'd say they are about right now honestly. Our "oh no" button(s) are lacking in quality. Our healing abilities should incease as our top end HP increase, otherwise they are less than good in groups and raids. We're not a DPS class, and we really mean that.</p>

[Stonestrong]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So, what does a paladin get?</p><p>Amends.</p><p>Kind of the end-all be-all for the class. Since you can master 2 the spell, no real reason not to.</p><p>We control agro like nobody else's business. Also in group or solo content our self heals can make a difference. In raid content...heals are not really recomended. Not only are they power hogs, they are also very slow and very interruptable.</p><p>We're also masters of the shield. Go hero line and get the shield block bonus.</p><p>Paladins up until TSO were the masters of group agro management. Now? We're still better than a bezerker at picking up non-grouped adds but SKs have gotten a lot of improvements in this department. I'd have to give them a nod.</p><p>In general, we're more survivable than an SK. While we can't get as much snap agro, our normal agro generation is better than any other fighter with the right assist class. Choose your amends target wisely and you should do fine.</p><p>Our rez spell is very rarely useful. Our death prevention is a joke. Our snap agro abilities have improved greatly. I'd say they are about right now honestly. Our "oh no" button(s) are lacking in quality. Our healing abilities should incease as our top end HP increase, otherwise they are less than good in groups and raids. We're not a DPS class, and we really mean that.</p></blockquote><p>I'm going to have to disagree with you on just about everything in your post, sir.</p><p>1. We do not have more survivability than an SK in anyway. This is completely wrong and it's not even close.</p><p>2. With holy ground able to go under a minute on the reuse with AAs into it, we have the best snap aggro of any tank class in the game. Sure sk's have Sacrament but its on a much longer timer, so it death march and the mythical clicky.</p><p>3. Our death save (Divine Favor) is not a joke (as you referred to it). It's actually very usefull, the stifle is annoying but it's far from useless. Up to TSO it was absolutely useless, now it's ok. If they would remove the penalites it would be great.</p>

[Befallen_Valgav]

<p>I have to agree with Stonewall...my 80 sk has always had better survivability over my paladin...granted my pally is not 80 yet. But with reactive damage/heal shield, life tap, tap veins, the AA ablity that lets you heal everytime you cast a spell for a % and the ultimate omg Im gonna die FD (if it works) the survivablity "seems" better.</p><p>I did not know about the "best snap agro of any tank class" but Im tryin to learn.</p><p>I would think the stifle componant would eliminate the usefullness of DF...could be wrong no 1st hand knowledge.</p><p>Right now I have STr maxed out, Int maxed out for Spell Crit....working on Stamina....should I do something different? I have nothing in the Paladin tree yet (didnt really have anyone to ask)</p>

[Rainmare]

<p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm going to have to disagree with you on just about everything in your post, sir.</p><p>1. We do not have more survivability than an SK in anyway. This is completely wrong and it's not even close.</p><p>2. With holy ground able to go under a minute on the reuse with AAs into it, we have the best snap aggro of any tank class in the game. Sure sk's have Sacrament but its on a much longer timer, so it death march and the mythical clicky.</p><p><strong>3. Our death save (Divine Favor) is not a joke (as you referred to it). It's actually very usefull, the stifle is annoying but it's far from useless. Up to TSO it was absolutely useless, now it's ok. If they would remove the penalites it would be great.</strong></p></blockquote><p>I cannot believe you said this.</p><p>I have yet to see ANY occasion where DF has saved a group from a wipe or a paladin for just a second death.</p><p>you come back with almost no health. your stifled, and your dazed. that means no auto attack, no spells, no CAs, for the 12 seconds or so the penalty is up</p><p>every single time I have tried this spell, one of three things happens. a) the mob just kills me again. (only usually takes 1 or 2 hits to do so) b) the mob kills my healer. c) the mob kills my amends target, completely destroyign any aggro I was getting.</p><p>usually after any of these occurances, the rest of the group dies shortly after. it doesn't take a mob long anymore to decimate a group. 12 seconds is more then enough. even more so on fights like the maestro in MM that spawns the adds that are orange. or the twins in that zone.</p><p>or the king in guk. or the frenzied ghoul. I'd hate to see the bloodbath of this 'save' if it went off on Varsoon or Ferzhul.</p><p>in fact the only mob I can even think of where this 'save' might not result in a mass death anyway is the Miragul shade in Scion of Ice, who is rooted in place.</p>

[Stonestrong]

<p>If you are dying again right after then your healers are to blame. Divine Favor can proc and keep you alive from huge spike damge like a crit or double attack and then heal you back up to 21% health. Yes you are stfiled for 12 seconds but you don't get your aggro wiped and you don't lose any buffs. If your amends target is feeding you good aggro you can hold it till the stifle is off.</p><p>When TSO 1st started and we didn't have crit mit to counter spike damage and random 1 shots, Divine Favor saved me at least once on every raid. My guild has killed everything in this game that is killable and consistently kill everything including contested mobs in a WW ranking fashion. I can promise you that I know what I'm talking about and that Divine Favor is not useless. Yes it could be improved, but it is a far cry from being useless. If you guys don't understand this then you don't understand how to play your paladin.</p><p>Stone</p>

[Kiljoi]

<p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>These are the kind of threads that are useless and most probably make them not want to fix anything. You should address things you think are broken and make your case in that way. Not making a random soe hates XXXXX class thread.</p><p>Stone</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Gotta be specific, cut and dry, clear.</p><p>Remove the stun penalty on Divine Favor. It does save us, but i think the duration of the stifle is a tad much.  Perhaps reducing the penatly would be nice?</p><p>Buff Stonewall.. increase the number of blocks. 1 is not accomplishing much. Perhaps all attacks will be blocked for 10s.</p><p>Scale up Divine Aura.  With raid mobs critical attacks and the actual increased damage per attack of raid mobs... our hp has not scaled up with the damage to make 50% stipulation as adequate as it once was.</p><p>ty for the time.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>then they've done some tweaking I wasn't aware of. everytime I tried it before, the death did wipe my aggro, unless I had an amend target going all out who usually let me keep it for 2 seconds before they snatched it and got eaten. and for me, 20% of my health is still low enough for a mob to kill me in a few hits without critically hitting me.</p><p>how exactly does it protect me from spike damage? last I recall the stoneskin we were supposed to get on it never came when they scrapped the fighter revamp.</p><p>but I'll take another look at it, maybe try it again and see if it save my group from a wipe. I doubt it will.</p>

[Anurra]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>then they've done some tweaking I wasn't aware of. everytime I tried it before, the death did wipe my aggro, unless I had an amend target going all out who usually let me keep it for 2 seconds before they snatched it and got eaten. and for me, 20% of my health is still low enough for a mob to kill me in a few hits without critically hitting me.</p><p>how exactly does it protect me from spike damage? last I recall the stoneskin we were supposed to get on it never came when they scrapped the fighter revamp.</p><p>but I'll take another look at it, maybe try it again and see if it save my group from a wipe. I doubt it will.</p></blockquote><p>Current HP: 15k/20k:</p><p>You get critically hit for 10000 damage!</p><p>You get double attacked for 5000 damage!</p><p>You die!</p><p>DF saves you.</p><p>If you are dying after DF pops, it is really your healers fault. I've been saved both in groups and raids with DF going off. DF could be improved, which I think it was (6 seconds for the stifle and heals 40%? Or is that the new 4 set bonus?? I've been pretty busy with school lately so haven't really followed up).</p>