Elves and Marr [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

KERSTYNN

05-01-2009, 08:10 PM

Well, with all the great answers/responses I recieved on my last question in the Lore forums I have decided to venture another question out here. But be forewarned that my personal Lore knowledge is limited and some of my assumptions may be incorrect. Having said that........What would the Koada'Dal and Feir'Dal relationship with Mithanial Marr (and his missing twin) be? As the Marr twins are more linked with humankind than elfkin what are the likehood of the elves venerating one of them over Tunare or Karana?I ask because I decided to roll myself up another new char and decided on a high elf paladin, I initially decided to follow Mithaniel Marr as he is most often associated with paladins, but then I stopped a moment to consider whether or not a high elf pally follow Marr or Tunare (who seems to be more asociated with druids, rangers etc.) I am interested in the possible Lore behind these options or any other thoughts that the Loremasters here have to say on the subject....Thanks again in advance.~K~

Cusashorn

05-01-2009, 08:42 PM

Technically speaking from the original Everquest, No elves could worship Mithanial or Erollisi Marr except Wood Elf and Half Elf Bards, as bards themselves could worship any non-evil diety regardless of race. My wood elf bard was a worshipper of Erollisi.However.. There is a creation story from the libraries in the Plane of Knowledge about how Mithanial Marr once ended up getting captured by Terris and Cazic Thule. Terris did all that she could to destroy Mithanial and rid Norrath of his presence. She almost succeeded, but then he split his essence into two halves, and sent them down to Norrath.The first part of his essence would inhabit the frogloks of Innothule Swamp. The essence gave them the strength and courage to overthrow the evil trolls out of thier ancestral city-fortress of Guk (the trolls originally lived there, were kicked out, and created Grobb.)The 2nd half would be deposited into Erollisi Marr, who at the time was still a new god. The world had not yet known of her presence, so she wandered around Norrath for a while. She recieved great care and hospitality while she stayed in the city of Felwithe, where the High Elves lived. Mithanial's essence was placed inside her, quite litterally impregnating her. She gave birth to the first Barbarians.The Barbarians, after having many years to create thier own societies and cities up north, would later trek down to Innothule to help the Frogloks in a war against the Trolls. When the two forces joined up, Mithanial's essence formed back together and he was reborn again for both of his creations to see.Erollisi became more well known throughout Norrath after that rather incestuous miracle happened. A group of females made mainly of elves and humans, would later in modern day Norrath create the Sisterhood of Erollisi. They lived on an island in the Ocean of Tears, dedicating themselves to her worship, and generally prohibited men from living there with the exception of a couple of dwarven blacksmiths who lived on the far side of the island away from thier village of Tearfall.The Humans who lived in Freeport would also form up the Temple of Marr, an order made of Paladins and Clerics who dedicated themselves to both Marr twins.During this year's Erollisi Day holiday, we aided the Sisterhood in thier search for the missing goddess. Mithanial Marr himself would directly speak with us, saying that not even he knows where she has gone missing, but it is only right to keep believing in her and her teachings of love.So to answer your question, it's not common for an Elf to worship Erollisi, but as a paladin, you would be encouraged to. In EQ2, there are no diety restrictions beyond being good or evil. I know that if Erollisi ever does return, my monk will follow her as well.

Silerua

05-01-2009, 08:58 PM

For baddies, we got to talk to Innoruuk. I don't know his exact words, but he took the credit for Erollisi's disappearance. I can't find the chatter he gave me in my log, so maybe someone else knows a bit more than I do.Not sure if that's relevant, but throwing it out there anyway. d:

Zabjade

05-01-2009, 10:46 PM

For Mithanial it was that he didn want to TALK about it and with Inny he was praising his daughter for Senridipitiously causing the currently (player unknown) incident to happen.

Xalmat

05-01-2009, 11:09 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>So to answer your question, it's not common for an Elf to worship Erollisi, but as a paladin, you would be encouraged to. In EQ2, there are no diety restrictions beyond being good or evil. I know that if Erollisi ever does return, my monk will follow her as well.</blockquote>From a lore perspective, most High Elves and Wood Elves (and Fae) worship Tunare, while Dark Elves mostly worship Innoruuk. Half Elves, being part human and part elf, will likely draw influence from their parents, whatever they worship.Since a Paladin is a holy knight, he draws his powers from his god of choice, and not necessarily thru Mithaniel Marr himself. Ie: if he is a knight of Tunare (as an Elf paladin would likely be), then he draws his powers from Tunare, much like a priest would. If he is a knight of Brell (which a Dwarf paladin would likely be), then Brell grants his power. If he's a knight of Bristlebane, then gods help us all!From a non-lore perspective Mithaniel Marr is one of the best deities to worship as a tank class. The other good ones are Zek (evil only), and The Tribunal (neutral, so anyone can worship them).

Mary the Prophetess

05-02-2009, 01:04 PM

The involvement of the Divine Twins with the affairs of the Elves began after the Hajia of the Elder Elves from Tunaria.Here is some back ground information of how Erollisi became involved. This is official lore from EQ Live:Hills of ShadeThe Elddar elves fled Tunaria, the land now known as Antonica, to escape the destruction that Solusek Ro wrought upon their land. They found their way east, to Faydwer. Over time on the new continent, the Elddar branched off into two distinct tribes: the Koada'dal and the Fier'dal. A fraction of the Fier'dal population settled in the Hills of Shade, creating a small village they named Kirathas. The elves of Kirathas cherished nature, and resided in simple wooden huts not unlike the structures of Kelethin. Much later, an enterprising group of humans led by their captain Han Jensen, "discovered" Faydwer while searching for profitable fishing routes. They erected a crude port on the northern coast, opposite from Kirathas in the southwest, and named it Blackwater. Under Jensen's orders, they made a point of keeping Blackwater's location a closely guarded secret. This protected the sanctity of their bountiful fishing port, but it also eliminated any possibility of a rescue should disaster strike. It was only a matter of time before the elves and the humans met. The first introduction was between a young fisherman, Fendel, and the daughter of Kirathas' leader, an elven girl named Amber. They stumbled upon one another at an elder oak tree. Their initial fear of each other melted away, replaced by curiosity. Curiosity turned to friendship, and friendship blossomed into love. This was a union that was blessed by the goddess of love, Erollisi Marr. Unfortunately, the subsequent interactions between the citizens of Kirathas and Blackwater were anything but blessed. Territorial skirmishes and confrontations spiraled out of control, escalating into all-out war between the two villages. Not long after Amber gave birth to Norrath's first half-elf, she was slain by her own father. He felt the act of sacrifice would end the conflict, but Fendel's screams of anguish reached Erollisi's ears. She descended upon the squabbling tribes, furious that her gift of love would be twisted into such hatred and pain. She cursed the inhabitants of the hills to relive their mistakes, forever. Today, the Hills of Shade are haunted by all manner of twisted and tortured creatures. The residents of Kirathas and Blackwater continue to battle each other even in death, seemingly unaware of their tragic fate. The elves' ancient burial catacombs, the Crypt of Shade, are overrun with the undead. Feeding off of the decay are a vicious new breed of Sporali, darkly transformed by the remains they consume. The foliage of the grove, disfigured by the divine curse, stand guard near a statue to Erollisi. A flock of crow aviaks known as the borrowers has taken up residence in the northwest, decorating their home with scavenged baubles, brightly colored cloth, and bone. Two camps of relative newcomers have arrived in the Hills: the benevolent members of Camp Valor, and the gnomes that call themselves Bertoxxulous's Chosen. Both groups are recruiting passing adventurers for assistance with their wildly different goals. The gnomes' attention is on scavenging dead bodies. For a necromancer, the concentration of death and decay are a valuable untapped resource, and profitable if one is willing to risk one's neck collecting it. The paladins of Camp Valor have come to the Hills for a more noble cause. They desire nothing less than to fend off the undead and destroy the curse. They are failing thus far, however, and their membership dwindles. Sometime later, Mithaniel Marr, (for reasons not fully known), called upon the followers of Marr to embark upon a holy crusade to the Faydwer to rid the Hills of Shade of the undead, and lift the curse laid upon it by his sister. This crusade was known as the Crusade of Tears.Although ultimately unsuccessful, two very noteworthy events happened as a direct result of the crusade. First, as the Knights of Truth and Priests of Marr left en masse for the Faydwer, the defense of Freeport against the orcs and brigands of the Commonlands was left in the care of a young paladin, Lucan D'Lere. Severly undermanned, Lucan organized a militia from the citizens of the the city, and such sell swords as he could find. The Freeport Militia was born.Lucan and the militia, although outnumbered and pressed hard, were successful in protecting both the city and the outlying areas (more or less). Lucan was looked upon as a savior by the citizens of Freeport.Apparently Lucan developed a taste for power, and therin lies a separate tale of his corruption and fall.The second result of the Crusade of Tears, was the establishment of a base by the Sisters of Erollisi Marr within the Ocean of Tears at Tearfall. Known as the Sisters Isle, it lay across the main trade routes connecting Antonica and the Faydwer. A cloisterd order of female worshippers of Erollisi was established there, know as the Sisters of Erollisi, or the Sisters of the Rose of Erollisi Marr. It is this order that raised and sheltered Shaonia before her arrival at Qeynos.Presumably, (though not explicitly stated), while embarked upon the Crusade of Tears, the followers of Marr were also prostelitizing to the Elves whom they encountered gaining converts as they did so.I hope that helps some

Cusashorn

05-02-2009, 01:43 PM

^ Umm.. I've never heard that story from ANYWHERE in EQlive. What era is it from and from where?

Mary the Prophetess

05-02-2009, 02:11 PM

<a href="http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/news_article.vm?id=50609&month=102007">http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/n...09&month=102007</a>There is also a similar story in the table top RPG suppliment Forests of Faydark, but it is not official, and it differs in the details with the EQ Live version. The main plot line is the same, though the characters' names are different.

Rainmare

05-02-2009, 05:21 PM

see this is an annoyance with the timeline split thing. for example, the expansion this is revealed in happens well after the spilt...but the story it is telling obviously predates the same split.as to worship...it's almost a non-choice. Elves, especailly Koada'dal, are indoctrinated practically at birth for the most part to follow Tunare. in eq1 the only choices a koada'dal had were Tunare, and if you were a caster, perhaps Sol Ro I think. and even then I think some of the npcs kinda of hint that it's more of a 'you follow tunare, but pay respect to sol ro' kind of deal.Granted in EQ2, with the gods having wthdrawn thier influence/power for so long, you may find evles looking to other faiths. but I would bet my last platinum that probably 99.5% of the Koada'dal at the least are devout followers of Tunare still. They are her first born, her most cherished children as far as they are concerned.

Mary the Prophetess

05-02-2009, 08:39 PM

Not to put too fine a point on it, the lore came out in an EQ expansion that was released after the expansion where the time line split occured as you say. The events it covers obviously predate that split.I agree 100% that the timesplit mechanism was a poor plot choice to separate the two games, and it can and has caused lore contradictions that cannot be easily reconciled. But Pandora's Box has been opened, and there is nothing we can do about it.As EQ continues to expand into areas that were not part of the original world, they produce lore for those areas. That lore predates the time split, but not the expansion. It 'locks' EQ2 lore into whatever they come up with because they are writing about times in Norrath that predate the time split.That's all well and good if the areas they open up are areas not yet covered, or that will not be covered in EQ2. But what happens when both games produce back lore about the same region and it contradicts each other. The Loping Plains was one of the 'lost zones' of Norrath, as were the Hills of Shade, and Lake Elizerain. EQ2 included the Loping Plains in their Echos of Faydwer expansion, and wrote some back lore for it. No particular problem, as it had not been released as a part of EQ Live at that time.Then EQ Live releases their Secrets of Faydwer expansion, and also includes the Loping Plains with back lore that differs from the already released EQ2 version.Both back lore versions discusses events that predate the time split.If that were not enough, first EQ Live, and now EQ2, have eliminated the slot for a lore GM in their organizational structure. There was at least some continuity prior to this because the lore people at EQ were the same ones that moved to EQ2 and so they were familiar with EQ's lore because they had written most of it. Lore conflicts were not a problem, because they knew not to write EQ2 lore which conflicted with the lore they had constructed for EQ Live.This is no longer the case, and these types of problems will increase as each game releases future expansions. What will happen if EQ2 at some point decides to release an EQ2 version of the Hills of Shade, or the Serpent Spine Mountains, or the Depths of Darkhollow?There should be a team of lorists that is in charge of BOTH games, to see that the history of Norrath does not fall into complete contradiction and discontinuity.That will destroy the suspension of disbelief and will make Norrath nothing more than just another video game. The tapestry of Norrathian lore is already becoming frayed around the edges, and I would hate to see large tears appear that might threaten to destroy it.I would gladly pay an increased subscription price if SOE executives were to re-establish a lore position for both games.Vhalen, Vahlar, Jindrack, Owlchick, Doomcookie and all the rest:" Within thickets of fiend and flesh, through a tunnel beyond death...We call to you."

Rezikai

05-02-2009, 11:00 PM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to put too fine a point on it, the lore came out in an EQ expansion that was released after the expansion where the time line split occured as you say. The events it covers obviously predate that split.I agree 100% that the timesplit mechanism was a poor plot choice to separate the two games, and it can and has caused lore contradictions that cannot be easily reconciled. But Pandora's Box has been opened, and there is nothing we can do about it.As EQ continues to expand into areas that were not part of the original world, they produce lore for those areas. That lore predates the time split, but not the expansion. It 'locks' EQ2 lore into whatever they come up with because they are writing about times in Norrath that predate the time split.That's all well and good if the areas they open up are areas not yet covered, or that will not be covered in EQ2. But what happens when both games produce back lore about the same region and it contradicts each other. The Loping Plains was one of the 'lost zones' of Norrath, as were the Hills of Shade, and Lake Elizerain. EQ2 included the Loping Plains in their Echos of Faydwer expansion, and wrote some back lore for it. No particular problem, as it had not been released as a part of EQ Live at that time.Then EQ Live releases their Secrets of Faydwer expansion, and also includes the Loping Plains with back lore that differs from the already released EQ2 version.Both back lore versions discusses events that predate the time split.If that were not enough, first EQ Live, and now EQ2, have eliminated the slot for a lore GM in their organizational structure. There was at least some continuity prior to this because the lore people at EQ were the same ones that moved to EQ2 and so they were familiar with EQ's lore because they had written most of it. Lore conflicts were not a problem, because they knew not to write EQ2 lore which conflicted with the lore they had constructed for EQ Live.This is no longer the case, and these types of problems will increase as each game releases future expansions. What will happen if EQ2 at some point decides to release an EQ2 version of the Hills of Shade, or the Serpent Spine Mountains, or the Depths of Darkhollow?There should be a team of lorists that is in charge of BOTH games, to see that the history of Norrath does not fall into complete contradiction and discontinuity.That will destroy the suspension of disbelief and will make Norrath nothing more than just another video game. The tapestry of Norrathian lore is already becoming frayed around the edges, and I would hate to see large tears appear that might threaten to destroy it.I would gladly pay an increased subscription price if SOE executives were to re-establish a lore position for both games.Vhalen, Vahlar, Jindrack, Owlchick, Doomcookie and all the rest:" Within thickets of fiend and flesh, through a tunnel beyond death...We call to you."</blockquote>Im actually leaning for a Lore "council" made up of the community lore nuts of the 3 games. They could go over the lore of the 3 games and give insight to the games history/storylines. Even when the lore devs were around there were some inconsistencies with the continuity of the lore for pre-split history, maybe it was done purposely, that i cant say. But a comminuty of people helping piece together the lore of Norrath for new storylines/zones/expacs may keep things running smoothly. If they would be privy to pre-released content to make up lore backstories for pre-released zones/storylines is up to SOE.

Cusashorn

05-02-2009, 11:44 PM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/news_article.vm?id=50609&month=102007">http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/n...09&month=102007</a>There is also a similar story in the table top RPG suppliment Forests of Faydark, but it is not official, and it differs in the details with the EQ Live version. The main plot line is the same, though the characters' names are different.</blockquote>Ahh. Takes place after EQ2 was released, so the story is non-canon to our timeline.

Zabjade

05-03-2009, 01:13 AM

Second time this has been mentioned, the first time was <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=105&topic_id=428911" target="_blank">here</a>.

Mary the Prophetess

05-03-2009, 01:37 AM

But that's the whole point, Cusa. It IS canon for our timeline! Our timeline rests NOT upon when an expansion was released, it rests upon when the events took place within Norrathian history--not Earth history.If the developers retcon a story line that it was really aliens that first discovered Norrath, and not Veeshan, then (because it is offical lore sanctioned by SOE), we have to change the story line.It is not events in the real world that determine Norrath's history, (like which year an expansion is released.), it is when those events happened upon Norrath. If they happened before the time split, then they are part of EQ2.It really dosen't matter at all the chronological order that the expansions were released.And that's the whole problem. At the drop of a hat, all lore can be changed because developers decree it to be so. And I have a fear that said developers are more concerned with other aspects of expansions than whether the lore is consistant with previous lore.Rezikai, I wish you and your fellows the best of luck. I think that it may actually come down to this type of thing for us now. It's not that SOE thinks lore is unimportant, it is that they have to think about the bottom line.Without a staff lorist, it more or less falls upon the community to fill in the gaps, and work out the inconsistencies. It is, however, a long and winding road upon which you embark, and I doubt you will be privy to Vhalen's tomes. We debate back and forth constantly on what is canon and what is not, and I doubt we will ever reach a concensus. Many, too numerous to mention, have attempted to construct things such as timelines or histories, and have always been ultimately unsuccessful because our collective 'guesstimates' lack official sanction, and because we are not the originators of the lore.That will not change.To Kerstynn, I apologize if I have derailed your thread. I hope you recieved at least a partial answer to your question.

Garnaf

05-03-2009, 02:24 AM

Cusashorn

05-03-2009, 02:47 AM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>But that's the whole point, Cusa. It IS canon for our timeline! Our timeline rests NOT upon when an expansion was released, it rests upon when the events took place within Norrathian history--not Earth history.If the developers retcon a story line that it was really aliens that first discovered Norrath, and not Veeshan, then (because it is offical lore sanctioned by SOE), we have to change the story line.It is not events in the real world that determine Norrath's history, (like which year an expansion is released.), it is when those events happened upon Norrath. If they happened before the time split, then they are part of EQ2.It really dosen't matter at all the chronological order that the expansions were released.And that's the whole problem. At the drop of a hat, all lore can be changed because developers decree it to be so. And I have a fear that said developers are more concerned with other aspects of expansions than whether the lore is consistant with previous lore.Rezikai, I wish you and your fellows the best of luck. I think that it may actually come down to this type of thing for us now. It's not that SOE thinks lore is unimportant, it is that they have to think about the bottom line.Without a staff lorist, it more or less falls upon the community to fill in the gaps, and work out the inconsistencies. It is, however, a long and winding road upon which you embark, and I doubt you will be privy to Vhalen's tomes. We debate back and forth constantly on what is canon and what is not, and I doubt we will ever reach a concensus. Many, too numerous to mention, have attempted to construct things such as timelines or histories, and have always been ultimately unsuccessful because our collective 'guesstimates' lack official sanction, and because we are not the originators of the lore.That will not change.To Kerstynn, I apologize if I have derailed your thread. I hope you recieved at least a partial answer to your question.</blockquote>No. this is a video game, first and foremost. We are human beings playing a game behind a computer screen. What the developers wrote in Everquest is chronologically recorded and influenced what became of EQ2. After EQ2 came out, any retcons made in EQlive remain ONLY to that game. The lore that existed ONLY when EQ2 was created and launched is the lore that we live off of.If we were actual living people on the planet Norrath, then yes, that retcon story would become official lore. It would be akin to archaeologists discovering the lost city of Atlantis here on Earth and actually proving it's existance. That retconned story would actually prove it's validity with new information that overwrote the old. People believed the Earth was flat before it was proven to be round.I will admit that the developers in EQ2 have chosen to very loosely involve certain events that have happened in EQlive since EQ2 was released, but that was only the fact that Mayong Mistmoore ascended to Godhood, then chose to give it up. The exact events of HOW he became a god are not known and does not prove the Depths of Darkhollow expansion is canon to our lore.An expansion released 4 years after Everquest 2 came out, who's lore was most likely written by who is currently the THIRD head Lore Developer, suddenly claims to have the *actual* telling of Erollisi Marr's backstory and creations? It's a retcon to EQlive's timeline, yes... but not to ours.Just remember, That Dragons of Norrath expansion has lore written in stating that the dragons have been living under Lavastorm for THOUSANDS of years... but the developers of EQ2 have come out and stated that the Drakkin Race cannot and will not exist in EQ2 because it never happened in our timeline. There are no dragons that have been living thousands of years below Lavastorm, because it hasn't been stated yet in EQ2.That story from the Plane of Knowledge describing Mithanial's impregnation of Erollisi Marr which created the Barbarians is official canon to our timeline, and only information written in EQ2 will prove that otherwise.

Mary the Prophetess

05-03-2009, 03:12 AM

Wellthen, we must agree to disagree, and part as friends.

Meirril

05-04-2009, 03:44 AM

As far as High Elves worshiping Mithanial Marr, there is more of a reason for a elf to worship Marr now than there was in EQ1.If your elf was raised in Qeynos he would have a heavy pro-Marr influence from other Paladins. While Rodcent was the patron-diety of Qeynos Mithanial Marr (and Erollisi) has always been special to the paladins. While you would of been raised on stories of Tunare, you may have found your calling in Mithanial's many trials and tribulations.If you were raised in Kelethin, you may actually hold a grudge against Tunare! Felwithe fell, the nobel Thex dynasty torn assunder by invaders. Your own kind scorns you as being "impure" and will not tolerate your return to Felwith, now re-named to New Tunaria. The Fae are now recognized as Tunare's chosen, not the Elves who have worshiped her since the beginning.Why grasp on to the mother's apron if she has cast you aside? Come to Innoruk...er...ahem. Embrace a diety renoun for his courage, selfless-ness, honor and duty. One that will never abandon you. One that will never give up hope. In duty you will find a new comfort. In service you will find a new purpose. In Marr you will find a new life. The followers of Marr await you, will you answer?

Cusashorn

05-04-2009, 08:26 AM

Still unintentionally spelling "R-o-d-c-e-t" at "R-o-d-c-e-n-t", huh Meirril?Sorry, don't mean to be mean, but you have a habit of mispelling his name.

Rainmare

05-04-2009, 06:54 PM

the issues of New Tunaria can be laid entirely at the feet of the clever half truth's of Mayong Mistmoore. while the Renda'Dal are a shadow of thier former selves, that would not dissuade a Tunarian from her side. the Elves indeed, have fallen from grace as the chosen of tunare, but that was again, thier own doing. I imagine primarily by lifted sword and sorcery to her avatar in the Plane of Growth (something I never did in eq1).Felwithe fell. King Thex slain. and so to was King Thex of the Tier'dal, his son nearly assassinated, at the hands of not the Koada'dal...but his own mother.If anything, now would be a time to hold harder to the Mother of All. Mithaniel Marr, the Truthbringer...cares for two things. glory and honor. and for someone using the agrument of the fall of felwithe as a point to leave the faith of Tunare...the same could be said for the destruction of the northern quarter of Freeport, the routing of his own followers from that place. the loss of freeport must sting the paladin's of marr as much as the loss of felwithe would sting a Tunarian paladin.and if the Fae are such chosen, then why would she have a Koada'dal as her prophet over her 'chosen'? I think the term chosen here doesn not imply a favored race, but a race brought to prominance.Elves live a long, long time. I would imagine, most elves of age in EQ2, are much older then many seem to think. I iamgine most are easily old enough to know the Shattering, and I imagine many more probably remember very well the Rending. which again woudl figure into most koada'dal and Feir'dal probably being raised on the faith of Tunare.Sure, the glory mongering of Mithaniel probably appeals to many. I would be a fool to think otherwise, and I'm sure he has a fair share of Koada'dal and Feir'dal in his ranks, as paladins go. But I'd still wager for every one Marr elf, there's probably three or four Tunare elves.

Meirril

05-04-2009, 11:02 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still unintentionally spelling "R-o-d-c-e-t" at "R-o-d-c-e-n-t", huh Meirril?Sorry, don't mean to be mean, but you have a habit of mispelling his name.</blockquote>I mispronounce it as well. I also figure like much on the internet you'll correct the spelling yourself and take in the meaning. Or you'll choose to hang up on the little mistakes and overlook the content. Entirely your own choice.

Meirril

05-04-2009, 11:11 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sure, the glory mongering of Mithaniel probably appeals to many. I would be a fool to think otherwise, and I'm sure he has a fair share of Koada'dal and Feir'dal in his ranks, as paladins go. But I'd still wager for every one Marr elf, there's probably three or four Tunare elves.</blockquote>You kinda making my point here at the end. Of the Elves born into this time and place, it isn't an automatic decision to worship the same diety as your parents. That one Marr worshiping elf would be one in a thousand before, not one of a dozen (probably higher than that. Maybe 19 in 20 elves worship Tunare?).Just as the good elves move away from Tunare, so do the Tier'Dal move away from Innoruk. I would think even more so since the truth reaches the escaped one's ears and the find so little reason to "return to father". Especially since the "free" Tier'Dal are suspect in the mind of both the Thexians and the Neriak factions. Any Tier'Dal with ambition should embrace a different power. An Ambitious outsider in Neriak even if they are Tier'Dal is just asking for enemies to line up to eliminate the "spy".

AScarlato

05-11-2009, 06:24 AM

I played EverQuest 1 at launch, and my very first character was a High Elf Enchanter who followed Erollisi Marr. So I know that at least High Elves always could follow Erollisi.My second character was a half elf Rogue. He also followed Erollisi Marr. Half Elves therefore could also always worship Erollisi.Just a small correction to the assumption that only Bards for technical reasons could follow Erollisi, as my High Elf and Half Elf both followed her.

Cusashorn

05-11-2009, 08:26 AM

<cite>AScarlato wrote:</cite><blockquote>I played EverQuest 1 at launch, and my very first character was a High Elf Enchanter who followed Erollisi Marr. So I know that at least High Elves always could follow Erollisi.My second character was a half elf Rogue. He also followed Erollisi Marr. Half Elves therefore could also always worship Erollisi.Just a small correction to the assumption that only Bards for technical reasons could follow Erollisi, as my High Elf and Half Elf both followed her.</blockquote>No. Your High Elf ENCHANTER could follow Erollisi Marr... Your High Elf itself cannot. Half Elves are half human, so of course they can, as well as rogues.

AScarlato

05-11-2009, 02:24 PM

You posted this: "Technically speaking from the original Everquest, No elves could worship Mithanial or Erollisi Marr except Wood Elf and Half Elf Bards, as bards themselves could worship any non-evil diety regardless of race. My wood elf bard was a worshipper of Erollisi."This is clearly false. I don't see the point of mentioning half elven bards in your original post if you will now say that "they are half human anyway." Moreover, a High Elf enchanter is still a High Elf. If Verdant wanted to prevent all High Elves from worshiping Erollisi because they were a High Elf, they would have restricted them from worshipping her. Clearly, Dark Elf enchanters cannot worhsip Erollisi, so it wasn't the class that dictated being able to worhship her. It was an active choice to allow this. Now that I think about it, Gnome and Erudite enchanters cannot follow Erollisi either. High Elves were the ONLY enchanters that were able to follow Erollisi outside of humans.

Rainmare

05-11-2009, 03:35 PM

what Cusa meant was that the high elf race, with exception to enchanters, and I believe wizards and mages, were restricted to Tunare.a high elf cleric could not worship erollisi. nor could a paladin. I believe a wizard/mage only had the choices of Tunare and Sol Ro. (thier 'natural' goddess and the god of magic).but on the whole, from a lore standpoint, 99.9% of the high elves worshipped Tunare. just as 99.9% of the Dark elves were Innoruuk.and in the high elf society..and especailly in the de society...it was actually rather frowned on if you didn't follow your patron deity.the halfbreeds had more leeway. but the only high elf classes allowed to worship someone other then Tunare were mage/wizard/chanter.I think Cusa was pointing it out more in a 'your chanter was the exception that proves the rule' manner.

Xalmat

05-11-2009, 03:57 PM

Arcane classes in general are more open-minded about deity worship. It's why you see a lot of Wizards, regardless of race, worship Solusek Ro. Bards as well are very open-minded about their deity of worship.

AScarlato

05-11-2009, 05:49 PM

Actually all 3 Arcane High Elven classes could worship Erollisi. So 3 out of 5 High Elven professions could worship her.True, the most devout classes (Paladin and Cleric) were Tunare-only, but this did not mean that Erollisi could not have had more than a 0.1 percent of elven following. I also do not think religions was restricted to 1 diety. Since the Pantheon had allies, I'm sure elves could have followed Erollisi but also respected Tunare.

Rainmare

05-11-2009, 08:20 PM

well the devout ones were tunare only. but the text of the clerical guild leaders and paladin guild leaders made it sound that pretty much every guard/priest in Felwithe was a tunare worshipper (all being members of the paladin/cleric guild) they 'legendary' hero in felwithe (used for the gm coins to turn in for rewards) was a devout tunarian.all text about the royal family, and Fironia Vie as well as her teacher, who's name eludes me. Tunare. Most the elves of the outpost fironia vie, Tunare worshippers.if you want to use even eq2 lore on it. how did mayong twist Felwithe into the agrophobic New Tunaria? by using the idea that it's destruction/thier problems were because they weren't devout enough in thier worship to the Mother of All.Was every Koada'dal a tunare worshipper? obviously not by the mage guilds, no. were enough of them tunare worshippers that if you found out that the high elf you were adventuring with wasn't, it would be a big shock? certainly.More likely your example about erollisi was the other way around. your faith was to Tunare, and you paid respect to Sol Ro/Erollisi/ patron of your choice.it was similar and many of the other EQ1 cities. the npcs alluded to it being primarily one diety worship...Barbs and the Tribunal, Dwarves and Brell, halflings and Bistlebane.but we know barbs, in certain proffessions, coudl worship other deities. warriors and Rallos, rogues and bristlbane.Dwarves were the same.Erudites...Rol was the big one there, and Prexus I believe. at least for the Erudin ones. I believe Paineel was mostly Cazic.It seemed to me that outside of specific proffessions....most of the population worshipped the 'primary; god. Wood/High elves Tunare...Barbs the Tribunal, dwarves Brell, ect.

KERSTYNN

05-11-2009, 08:32 PM

I am starting to think, and lean in the direction, that in a polytheistic society it would be seen as an almost natural act to follow multiple dieties. As a paladin, one could swear to follow the tenets of truth and glory and crusade under the banner of Mithaniel Marr, or follow the ways of Erollosi and do the same things, yet all the while honoring the Mother as well. Of course I could see the potential for conflict should the actions of one order go against the teachings of another, but these are things that go on daily anyhow in the form of internal struggles; i.e. Am I doing the right thing? Am I here for the right reason? As always one must base his or decisions on the dictates of their conscience. Am I right?Anyhow I am once again enjoying the varied opinions as well as the evolution within the original topic that has occurred here. Please continue to sgare your thoughts and ideas in these subjects and don't worry about "stretching" the thread in a differnt direction. I have always viewed these topics as elastic and it seems to me that even when they get stretched in a totally different direction they eventually return to their original form. Thank again for the valuable insights!

Xalmat

05-11-2009, 09:49 PM

<cite>KERSTYNN wrote:</cite><blockquote>Of course I could see the potential for conflict should the actions of one order go against the teachings of another, but these are things that go on daily anyhow in the form of internal struggles;</blockquote>Fortunately in the case of the Marr twins and Tunare, they are basically allied to one another (To be precise, Mithaniel is allied to Erollisi, and Erollisi is allied to Mithaniel and Tunare). I suspect there's very little a true Mithaniel or Erollisi follower would do that a Tunare worshipper would not also do.

Rainmare

05-12-2009, 07:30 AM

I'd think the primary difference between Mithaniel followers and Tunare followers is that whole 'glory' part. considering also that practically all Tunare worshippers from before the Shattering/Rending were elves, they have the advantage over the primarily human following of Mith Marr in longevity.Tunare followers seem much more concerned with defending thier own, rather then 'crusading' to foriegn lands and the like in search of 'honor and glory'. Both orders are definately against corruption in all forms, spiritual/physical. Just that while the Tunarians are more concerned primarily with the Faydarks/within thier own borders, the Mith Marr followers are about cleansing it all over wherever it can be found.Erollisi is more inline with Tunare's ideology. her tenents of love and compassion translate well in defending the natural world from corruption. and her followers also seem to be more in line with defending thier own before going out of thier way to fight evil abroad. Erollisi/Tunare seem more about 'preserve and defend' then Mithaniel's idea of chasing 'honor and glory'.

Mary the Prophetess

05-12-2009, 09:17 AM

The Eight Virtues of Marr: [This list comes from Jindrack} From Erollisi: Love Passion Devotion Charity From Mithaniel: Valor Truth Honor Sacrifice

KERSTYNN

05-13-2009, 07:07 PM

When I was talking about potential internal conflicts I wasn't specifically referring to the Marr twins and Tunare, I was thinking in more of an overall perspective. Most of the Norrathian races have their own "creator" diety, as well as other dieties available to them.For example, a Teir'Dal wizard might publicly and emotionally (at leasy partially) worship Innoruuk, whilst secretly following Solusek Ro to gain power and insight from his teachings, or an Iksar necro who uses disease to cause fear, thus following, in part, both Berrtoxulous (sp?) and Cazic-Thule.I guess what I'm getting at is that I can see the potential for each specific race to follow their "creator" diety (as it could be argued that the "creator" placed a "spark" of him/herself into their creations) as well as a diety that falls in line with the persons day to day activities and experiences.Of course I could see this causing a jealosy problem among some of the evil dieties, but amongst the more benevolent dieties this might even be encouraged as it has been theorized ( or perhaps openly stated) that each diety gains its power directly based upon the number of worshippers they have.I usually hate to bring RL examples into a fantasy setting, and vice versa, but in this case it seems to fit somewhat. Looking back through history at the polytheistic societies and it can be seen that the various dieties were worshipped and honored as they were needed for specific things. In Rome or Greece, if you were having love issues you went to pray and leave an offering at the temple of Venus or Aphrodite, if you were making a sea voyage you went to a shrine honoring Posiedon, if you wanted to win an upcoming battle you prayed to Mars or Aries. These societies also had specific days or dates set aside to publicly honor or celebrate the variour dieties. Erollosi Day anyone?Hopefully you see where I am going with this since it has been the varied insights presented here that have brought me to these conclusions. Again I thank you all and please feel free to keep the discussion going......

Cusashorn

05-13-2009, 07:41 PM

It's not uncommon to reference a diety in common phrases and statements though.Quite a few official stories and lore in the game have characters who claim to follow a certain diety officially, but still asks or references other gods.It wouldn't be unheard of for a warrior of Qeynos to ask for Rallos Zek's blessing in battle, even though he worships Karana or whoever.

Meirril

05-14-2009, 02:47 AM

Dieties don't squabble over individual worshipers. They do occasionally take personal interest in a single individual. Usually that interest is due to something extradinory they have discovered. Either some quirk of fate, exceptional devotion, or just being an exemplar of the emotion they have domain over.Also most of the worshipable dieties are gods of influence. Influence keys into emotions. By feeling an emotion, you are giving strength to a diety. So Cazic Thule and his worshipers seek to cause fear to strengthen Cazic Thule. Anyone that feels fear gives him strength rather they actively worship him or not. That is why Innoruk is constantly trying to create hatred between people, because hatred gives him strength. Growth and life in general contribute to Tunare. While the Elves were her chosen people, all the creatures she created give her strength. This includes the trees, green growing things, and the animals of nature. In part, this is why elves venerate the natural so much because it gives Tunare strength and pleases "Mother".Other dieties derive their strength from more primal forces. They are refered to as Elemental gods. I believe Karana falls into this category with storms being more important to him than actual worshipers. I'm not sure exactly where Brell falls into this. He has created more races than any other god, and while he is called the patron god of smithing (and brewing) I don't believe that is where he gets his strength. Honestly, I'm not sure what his realm of influence would be. Also Ralos Zek doesn't fit neatly into any category. Unless he draws his strenght from raw aggression, or anger? "Battle" isn't exactly an emotion. Then again, neither is health or disease though both are conditions shared by living creatures. Some of the dieties don't seem very well thought out...

GrunEQ

05-18-2009, 01:25 AM

Thinking about the fuzzy factor in lore, especially expressed thru other related games, it's like how religion is passed down and taught. It gets changed over time depending on how well it was remembered..when written or translated, there were mistakes..some people like to embellish for a better story..some cut out certain parts as unimportant or so well known it's taken for granted...parts are open to different interpertations...etc. Therefore over time different geographic areas develope their own storyline/history/lore and it changes slightly over time to an extent that it becomes unrecognizable if compared with the originial. That's why there are so many different sects in many religions. So I wouldn't be upset if "facts" and storylines do not all fit neatly into one true picture, but is instead a nice picture a little fuzzy around the edges.