Ward of Elements needs to be toned WAY DOWN! [Archive]

Allurana

04-26-2009, 08:00 AM

I expect to see the normal flames and "L2P" stuff that comes from most of the vocal folks on these boards but I would also appreciate seeing honest feedback from similar players such as myself on this issue and maybe even a dev response that this is NOT intended game play for this first and publicly stated intended purpose raid zone of "casual raiders with fabled epics and void shard armor".First I would like to give the scenario of last night (very briefly) and then i will tell you our set up:We did not get past the first static spawn group of 4 linked mobs in the right hand hallway that leads down to the first and easiest named. It is the 4 linked mobs where 2 are visible and 2 are not outside of aggro range.There is one roaming mobs that we did kill before attempting that static group and then there is another roaming mob in that side hall which we were able to NOT aggro on many of our attempts to take down that static group.This was NOT our first trip to Ward of Elements and we have been successful in taking down the first 2 nameds previously but couldn't even attempt the third named on our maiden trip in because we couldn't even survive the trash mobs at the door of that room.Now our setup:80 Guardian with 8870ish constant mitigation, 12700ish constant avoidance and 10,700 ish mitigation for 30 seconds with pull buffs. Fabled Epic, fully adorned, almost fully mastered, full tier 2 void shard armor, full tier 2 void shard jewelry.Everyone was level 80 (of course) - main group had guard, temp, dirge, swash, fury, wizard / second group had conj, illy, wizard, fury, warden, and another class (can't remember - didn't commit it to memory since I didn't know at the time I was going to write this post)Most of the 12 folks had their fabled epics and most have full tier 2 if not a smattering of Tier 1 and Tier 2 and everyone is at least adept 3s in spell level.What happened, repeatedly: (the first roaming mob is already dead and not an issue at this point)First pull was a body pull (worked the first time we were here). Guard put on every temp buff they have, get pre-warded, pre-healed etc.... Just a plain body pull since on the first pull we were not sure where the 2nd roamer was on his path.As soon as all 4 mobs were visible and reasonably clear (barely around the corner) of social aggro of the 2nd roamer I was going to try and use any and all taunts I had.I pull, I immediately get stunned or stifled or something that didn't allow me to cast. The 4 mobs run straight to all the healers that had pre-warded/healed me and "one shotted" them (not really one shotted but when you can smashed with so much damage so fast it might has been a one shot - you can't tell the difference since there is NOTHING you can do with it happens instantaneously). Then they ran right back to me since I can now finally cast a taunt and they basically one shot me. (the hit me for 2,500 to 4,000 crushing non-critical damage each and that is with the mentioned mitigation and avoidance above)Second pull someone had the brainwave of a pet pull. Ok, lets try that.Conjurer sends in pet, it gets one shotted. Mobs run toward the group, I fire off my fast group taunt which ALL FOUR of the mobs completely ignore somehow and one shot the conjurer and then come to me next and one shot me. Wipe #2 happens.Third pull, we decide that losing the conjurer pet so fast is a bad thing and try a pet pull with a Templar hammer. Same thing as the second pull but the templar dies first this time.Fourth pull, I get within casting range for my fast green encounter taunt but just out of aggro range.Everyone groups up semi-close just behind that and the plan was for me to start with an encounter taunt to try and get them to all come at me first and stop one shotting the non-tanks.Buffs up, pre-heals, etc... (btw...NO WAY is it possible to no pre-heal - we discovered that on the first trip here) - I cast the encounter taunt - since I am only line of sight on 2 of the 4 mobs, the first 2 come at me the second two go after the rest of the raid. This scenario gave us just enough time for the Illy to stun/mez/etc... for us to actually have a chance at this kill BUT....since we can pull them back very far without a one shot and we were fight so close to the stairs you can guess what happened.The 2nd roamer strolled close enough and joined in. We had it down to the last of 4 mobs when that happened and we wiped.We left in complete and utter disgust after that.This raid is TOO HARD. Last night was the FIRST TIME since I started playing EQ2 on Nov. 9, 2004 with my main character Allurana which is still my main character that I had considered cancelling all FOUR of my paid subscriptions and never coming back.I lived through LU13 and actually liked it, name all the guardians changes over the years and actually liked them all EXCEPT the massive nerf we took with TSO expansion came out and the promise we would be fixed with a fighter revamp 2.0 "soon" - it has been half a year already - give me back my dps if you won't make my taunts work and then you design C R A P content like this that you label to be usable by people EXACTLY geared and playstyle like me.We do not have our mythicals, we do not raid every other night and have a well oiled and polished raid force with ever min/maxed spell/potion/charm/etc...SUGGESTIONS:1. Make my taunts work - triple their taunt numbers currently on them for a quick fix or make the mobs actually have taunt do something like being unresistable COMPLETELY.OR2. Make mitigation actually mean something - I parsed last night. I was getting hit for 2,500 ish to mid 4,000 ish in damage PER HIT fast and furiously by those 4 mobs and NONE of the hits were criticals - (I have 13% crif mitigation from the tier 2 void armor I think). I think I have over 70% mitigation and well over 70% avoidance when I am pulling SHOULD I REALLY BE TAKING THAT MUCH NON-CRITICAL DAMAGE???? 4 mobs hit so fast and so hard NO ONE has a chance to do anything at all - I literall drop like I have been one shotted.Last night was categorically and undeniably UNFUN. Get a grip SOE with this raid design b.s. you are putting in the heroic level game and now the new x2 raid game that you claim is for us "lesser folks".I have 78 paid accounts in my guild and they are all of a very similar mindset to mine. We enjoy the heroic game and only dabble in the raid game that is actually reasonably doable by us (typically one tier back - we raid KOS often now - we have cleared Labs, AoA, Lyceum, almost all of Halls of Seeing - before that we did Godking when level 70 was max - did Darathir when level 60 was max and we will probably do VP when level 90 is max).Please either adjust this current content OR be honest and realistic as to the audience and the players that you ACTUALLY designed it for which is obviously the high end mythical raiders that "needed" a smaller raid zone to occupy them when they only have 12 folks available.

Ran

04-26-2009, 09:28 AM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I expect to see the normal flames and "L2P" stuff that comes from most of the vocal folks on these boards but I would also appreciate seeing honest feedback from similar players such as myself on this issue and maybe even a dev response that this is NOT intended game play for this first and publicly stated intended purpose raid zone of "casual raiders with fabled epics and void shard armor".for what drops in that zone the difficulty is accurateFirst I would like to give the scenario of last night (very briefly) and then i will tell you our set up:We did not get past the first static spawn group of 4 linked mobs in the right hand hallway that leads down to the first and easiest named. It is the 4 linked mobs where 2 are visible and 2 are not outside of aggro range.There is one roaming mobs that we did kill before attempting that static group and then there is another roaming mob in that side hall which we were able to NOT aggro on many of our attempts to take down that static group.This was NOT our first trip to Ward of Elements and we have been successful in taking down the first 2 nameds previously but couldn't even attempt the third named on our maiden trip in because we couldn't even survive the trash mobs at the door of that room.Don't misunderstood it but you say that you could manage to kill 2 nameds to a previous time and now you cannot even pass the trash?Now our setup:80 Guardian with 8870ish constant mitigation, 12700ish constant avoidance and 10,700 ish mitigation for 30 seconds with pull buffs. Fabled Epic, fully adorned, almost fully mastered, full tier 2 void shard armor, full tier 2 void shard jewelry.Everyone was level 80 (of course) - main group had guard, temp, dirge, swash, fury, wizard / second group had conj, illy, wizard, fury, warden, and another class (can't remember - didn't commit it to memory since I didn't know at the time I was going to write this post)Switch Wizard in MT Group for a Coercer. Would help your healers ALOT since Coercive healing and group healcrit buff, also DPS Buffs and no mana-issues anymore since dirges got bether buffs than their manareg.Most of the 12 folks had their fabled epics and most have full tier 2 if not a smattering of Tier 1 and Tier 2 and everyone is at least adept 3s in spell level.What happened, repeatedly: (the first roaming mob is already dead and not an issue at this point)First pull was a body pull (worked the first time we were here). Guard put on every temp buff they have, get pre-warded, pre-healed etc.... Just a plain body pull since on the first pull we were not sure where the 2nd roamer was on his path.As soon as all 4 mobs were visible and reasonably clear (barely around the corner) of social aggro of the 2nd roamer I was going to try and use any and all taunts I had.Why you don't use a combat art first? Taunts can be resistet.I pull, I immediately get stunned or stifled or something that didn't allow me to cast. The 4 mobs run straight to all the healers that had pre-warded/healed me and "one shotted" them (not really one shotted but when you can smashed with so much damage so fast it might has been a one shot - you can't tell the difference since there is NOTHING you can do with it happens instantaneously). Then they ran right back to me since I can now finally cast a taunt and they basically one shot me. (the hit me for 2,500 to 4,000 crushing non-critical damage each and that is with the mentioned mitigation and avoidance above)since Maestro Cure befor Heal so your healers could spamcure even exactly to the time you pull so you get instantly cured..Second pull someone had the brainwave of a pet pull. Ok, lets try that.Conjurer sends in pet, it gets one shotted. Mobs run toward the group, I fire off my fast group taunt which ALL FOUR of the mobs completely ignore somehow and one shot the conjurer and then come to me next and one shot me. Wipe #2 happens.If something is not working first time.. try it several times. There are more Issues than simple resists etc. which can bring the fail of a succesfull pull. Then.. never, pls never let a nekro or conj pull with their pet if you have a templer/defiler/mysti. While they one-shottet the conjurer, why haven't you been fully warded etc.? Third pull, we decide that losing the conjurer pet so fast is a bad thing and try a pet pull with a Templar hammer. Same thing as the second pull but the templar dies first this time.What is this lvl 2x spell named in english? Did you try that one or.. did you try combat art before even trying to taunt?Fourth pull, I get within casting range for my fast green encounter taunt but just out of aggro range.Everyone groups up semi-close just behind that and the plan was for me to start with an encounter taunt to try and get them to all come at me first and stop one shotting the non-tanks.Buffs up, pre-heals, etc... (btw...NO WAY is it possible to no pre-heal - we discovered that on the first trip here) - I cast the encounter taunt - since I am only line of sight on 2 of the 4 mobs, the first 2 come at me the second two go after the rest of the raid. This scenario gave us just enough time for the Illy to stun/mez/etc... for us to actually have a chance at this kill BUT....at this point you figured out your most succesfull strat for them but...since we can pull them back very far without a one shot and we were fight so close to the stairs you can guess what happened.The 2nd roamer strolled close enough and joined in. We had it down to the last of 4 mobs when that happened and we wiped.... you are unlucky and dissapointed.We left in complete and utter disgust after that.This raid is TOO HARD. Last night was the FIRST TIME since I started playing EQ2 on Nov. 9, 2004 with my main character Allurana which is still my main character that I had considered cancelling all FOUR of my paid subscriptions and never coming back.Well sry but you describe it by yourself.. you made several tries and on your best you are unlucky. No way I can see your point of unsubscribing.I lived through LU13 and actually liked it, name all the guardians changes over the years and actually liked them all EXCEPT the massive nerf we took with TSO expansion came out and the promise we would be fixed with a fighter revamp 2.0 "soon" - it has been half a year already - give me back my dps if you won't make my taunts work and then you design C R A P content like this that you label to be usable by people EXACTLY geared and playstyle like me.We do not have our mythicals, we do not raid every other night and have a well oiled and polished raid force with ever min/maxed spell/potion/charm/etc...SUGGESTIONS:1. Make my taunts work - triple their taunt numbers currently on them for a quick fix or make the mobs actually have taunt do something like being unresistable COMPLETELY.OR2. Make mitigation actually mean something - I parsed last night. I was getting hit for 2,500 ish to mid 4,000 ish in damage PER HIT fast and furiously by those 4 mobs and NONE of the hits were criticals - (I have 13% crif mitigation from the tier 2 void armor I think). I think I have over 70% mitigation and well over 70% avoidance when I am pulling SHOULD I REALLY BE TAKING THAT MUCH NON-CRITICAL DAMAGE???? 4 mobs hit so fast and so hard NO ONE has a chance to do anything at all - I literall drop like I have been one shotted.Last night was categorically and undeniably UNFUN. Get a grip SOE with this raid design b.s. you are putting in the heroic level game and now the new x2 raid game that you claim is for us "lesser folks".I have 78 paid accounts in my guild and they are all of a very similar mindset to mine. We enjoy the heroic game and only dabble in the raid game that is actually reasonably doable by us (typically one tier back - we raid KOS often now - we have cleared Labs, AoA, Lyceum, almost all of Halls of Seeing - before that we did Godking when level 70 was max - did Darathir when level 60 was max and we will probably do VP when level 90 is max).Please either adjust this current content OR be honest and realistic as to the audience and the players that you ACTUALLY designed it for which is obviously the high end mythical raiders that "needed" a smaller raid zone to occupy them when they only have 12 folks available.</blockquote>Again like at the beginning.. you get good stuff out of there so it is just unrealistic to make that zone even more easier.

Noaani

04-26-2009, 10:36 AM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>80 Guardian with 8870ish constant mitigation, 12700ish constant avoidance and 10,700 ish mitigation for 30 seconds with pull buffs. Fabled Epic, fully adorned, almost fully mastered, full tier 2 void shard armor, full tier 2 void shard jewelry.Everyone was level 80 (of course) - main group had guard, temp, dirge, swash, fury, wizard / second group had conj, illy, wizard, fury, warden, and another class (can't remember - didn't commit it to memory since I didn't know at the time I was going to write this post)</blockquote>Unless that last class was a crusader or bezerker, you have no chance of clearing this zone in your gear with this raid setup. That is your first problem.With the pull in question, both body pulling and pet pulling are asking for trouble. The fact that these are the only two pulls you tried, and the fact that you gave up after 4 pulls, tells me even more than you intended your post to.What you should have done is single target taunt pulled the encounter, telling youra raid to not AE anything for about 6 seconds. 2 seconds after the initial taunt, you hit Reinforcement, wait for the 4 mobs to be in melee range, and then use your 2 (3 if you are of an appropriate race) damage AEs.The fact that you had no shaman is another sevre factor in lack of success. Wards are essential for raids, and Repent just doesn't cut it.This is a raid zone, first and foremost. Don't attempt it in your gear without wards, and don't expect to clear it without a tank that can hold GOOD AE hate.

Urgol

04-26-2009, 10:36 AM

First, you had at least 3 healers in raid. Tell the one not from mt grp to quit /autofollow and start curing the mt on pull. Second, look, the mob did stun you? [Removed for Content] are you waiting for to use your freedom of mind or city merchant insignia/token/whatever they are called in english for 1,5 min stun immunity? Third, quit using taunts on pulls once and forever, use your AE combat arts or something that doesnt get resisted 4 times in a row on a debuffed mob. Next, ths: Then they ran right back to me since I can now finally cast a taunt and they basically one shot me. (the hit me for 2,500 to 4,000 crushing non-critical damage each and that is with the mentioned mitigation and avoidance above) Isn't gonna kill a mastercrafted tank w/o adorments. What's your uncontested avoidance? Did you try equipping the shield? You had a templar in grp, so his pre-heal is something between 8 and 25k, which should last long enough for the druids to catch up with healing. Overall your problem seems to be the lack of pulling experience, we did the zone with our alts with just t2-or-so gear with 2 healers (one being a heal-specced pally) and it's cake, especially after the last boss was nerfed.

Allurana

04-26-2009, 11:45 AM

So far I appreciate the constructive feedback, I do have a question though.Do you all consider these to be reasonable suggestions and expectations of game play for the FIRST TRASH mobs of a 12 person zone?So far the suggestions are things like having a more "perfect" set of classes - why? we had heals, tanks, a control and dps - why does it have to be a very granular specific flavor of those things? Those are rhetorical for SOE, I know the real answer it is because that "is the way it is right now".Suggestion is pull with CA instead of taunt, ok - I can try that.We were successful the first time, I believe, because we had 2 illys on our first run and they ended up spamming stuns and mezs and all their things they can do. This time 1 Illy and we would wipe in about 3 seconds flat each time.I can accept constructive "L2P" suggestions such as these but I would also like to see SOE either adjust this crazy, stupid zone that is just like KC during Kunark beta OR re-advertise the zone as to the proper gear/level and expectations are needed BEFORE folks should think about trying it.It is my opinion, yes - opinion, that game play that forces granular specific classes as well as potions/insignias/immunities are NOT in-line with past precendents in heroic content or any heroic level previous to this zone AS WELL AS the ONLY other x2 raid zones in the ENTIRE game which are the city guild writ raids which we are masters of and hold most of the server discoveries for all the loot in those raids.We are not bad players or need to "L2P" our classes, we just are NOT raiders in the traditional raiding game. There is NO progression from heroic to raiding and this zone only proves it that much more.The current state of this game is that you have a solo game which is approachable and easy to learn, you then progress to a heroic game which is ALMOST EXACTLY like the solo game but with harder mobs and the requirement to work with other characters to beat down the huge HPs.Then there is this leap to raiding which you then basically have to re-learn how to play the game entirely, nothing is intuitive, you need 6 sets of gear, a bunch of other things like potions and insignias that you never needed before and you now have to start excluding your friends and such because they are not fitting the exact min/max mold needed to take down Mob X in Zone Y but stay close by though since we need to switch to ranged/jousting for the next named around the corner.That unrealistic and unmanageble leap of game design and game play is what I have issue with.The issue is NOT that it exists, I am fine with the raid game being what it is and I am glad that many folks enjoy it.My issue is that SOE advertised this new content x2 size raid zone that they have NOT introduced since the city guild raids which were put in like 4 years ago now. Really 4 YEARS we have been waiting for our next end game content and Ward of Elements was labeled as that for us.Non-mythical and tier 2 void shard armor - check. We have that. We have raided ALL the x2 raid content in this game and MASTERED IT. We are competent heroic content players, we have played most of it and mastered most of it.OUR next step of PROGRESSION in this game is Ward of Elements. That is OUR end game AND it was advertised as such.That is my issue. Keep the rest of the game as is. You enjoy your parts, we are enjoying ours. But don't lie to us that you are finally releasing new endgame content for us and then it just be a 12 person version of the ridiculous raid game we can't and WON'T be a part of.

Gaige

04-26-2009, 12:28 PM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>So far the suggestions are things like having a more "perfect" set of classes - why? we had heals, tanks, a control and dps - why does it have to be a very granular specific flavor of those things? Those are rhetorical for SOE, I know the real answer it is because that "is the way it is right now".I can accept constructive "L2P" suggestions such as these but I would also like to see SOE either adjust this crazy, stupid zone that is just like KC during Kunark beta OR re-advertise the zone as to the proper gear/level and expectations are needed BEFORE folks should think about trying it.It is my opinion, yes - opinion, that game play that forces granular specific classes as well as potions/insignias/immunities are NOT in-line with past precendents in heroic content or any heroic level previous to this zone AS WELL AS the ONLY other x2 raid zones in the ENTIRE game which are the city guild writ raids which we are masters of and hold most of the server discoveries for all the loot in those raids.Then there is this leap to raiding which you then basically have to re-learn how to play the game entirely, nothing is intuitive, you need 6 sets of gear, a bunch of other things like potions and insignias that you never needed before and you now have to start excluding your friends and such because they are not fitting the exact min/max mold needed to take down Mob X in Zone Y but stay close by though since we need to switch to ranged/jousting for the next named around the corner.That unrealistic and unmanageble leap of game design and game play is what I have issue with.The issue is NOT that it exists, I am fine with the raid game being what it is and I am glad that many folks enjoy it.OUR next step of PROGRESSION in this game is Ward of Elements. That is OUR end game AND it was advertised as such.That is my issue. Keep the rest of the game as is. You enjoy your parts, we are enjoying ours. But don't lie to us that you are finally releasing new endgame content for us and then it just be a 12 person version of the ridiculous raid game we can't and WON'T be a part of.</blockquote>First off not taking a shaman to a raid zone, even if it is a x2, is silly. Wards + reactives first; druids if you have nothing else. Druids are pretty much terrible.Second, the way you build groups makes no sense. Why put a wizard in the MT group over a coercer?Third... you quit the zone after four pulls? Uh... this would be the primary reason behind people's failures.Anyway, continuing on; you keep comparing this zone to the city writ TRAINING raids. The WoE isn't a training raid and it drops amazing gear for a x2. The best gear you can get in this game w/o raiding x4 zones. Also, its kind of hard for me to believe that you have all of these raids MASTERED when according to your post you haven't even cleared Halls of Seeing yet? Just saying.You complaining about actually needing an adequate raid setup is silly. So are your gasps of OMG I SHOULD USE A POTION OR A SIGNET, WHY FOR. Why? Because that is what good players do. They use everything available to them in order to succeed. Go figure.This so called "leap" in gameplay isn't unrealistic or unmanageable - plenty of players on every server do it every single day. If its not something you are willing to do, then don't raid the zone. If you want the gear from the zone, then adjust your playstyle to acquire it. If not, continue raiding KoS content for your fabled loots.WoE was never advertised as a "casual raid zone for guilds almost clearing KoS x4 raids who are unwilling to change their raid setup, use potions and signets and try more than four pulls in order to devise a strategy. All those raiders out there clearing the city TRAINING raids come blow right through WoE first time in without a shaman while using a wizard in the MT group!" If it was I never saw it.

Macross_JR

04-26-2009, 12:51 PM

couple of words for you on your pulls, have the templar use Sanctuary. no more stuns, no more stifles, get ya some agro.Edit: the one thing I will say about this zone is the ae's from the trash is rediculous. even if you do range it or have the mt just run and turn the mobs, if someone gets hit by it and isn't fast enough to cure, they are dead. the ae's tick for way to much damage per tick. this is not a good way to get people to learn how to raid, it will frustrate them and you will end up with people like the OP.

steelbadger

04-26-2009, 01:15 PM

Those mobs will, on pull, cast an aoe target lock on the nearest 4 or so people in the raid, locking those people onto the mob that cast it, annoying for the tank when trying to get aggro but will wipe the raid if it is on the healers for any length of time.One of the MT healers absolutely must cast an aoe cure to get everyone free'd up again, a healer targetting the wrong thing on the pull is a bad thing mmkay.Body pull them, no need to pet pull, a pet pull risks social aggro just as much as a bow pull or taunt pull in this instance, body pull the mobs, you can delay a couple of seconds then aoe taunt, aggro should not be a problem (unless the dps launch off into aoes before you have them under control) and the wanderer shouldn't be a problem.And I have to echo the other posters here and recommend that you bring a shaman for the MT group, wards are better than all other heal types put together.

Maamadex

04-26-2009, 01:21 PM

Curing is just very important, no more stuns stifles then either. Last raid I did we didn't have a templar. We are fully mythed and raid geared tho. We went in with Guard, Coercer, Mystic, Warden, Swashy, Dirge (mt group) and Illy, wiz, troub, mystic, fury, necro. I was on my alt mystic in MT group. We cleared it fine in 2 - 2 and a half hours and did just fine. Everybody had raid experience tho. I will say that Noaani's advice is spot on, Taunts get resisted too much to be effective on a pull, and you do need to let people know to hold off on anything til you get aggro. And it is a raid you do require a certain setup. Just like some heroic zones go better with certain setups. You can't just ignore that and expect it to be equal.

yohann koldheart

04-26-2009, 01:25 PM

as stated above, a shammy is almost a must for any raid x2 or x4. replace the druid in group 1 with a defiler or mystic. also get one of your healers to cure people .you wont get far without a off tank in group 2.the zone dont need toned down. we are on a pvp server so we 2 years behind you and we clearing to aiden, and the library. cant seem to find a solid strat for aiden. and cant figure a way to single pull the groups of mobs in the library yet... its meant to be hard. the gear is comparable to VP , and for some classes its better. if it was toned down it would be too easy. also on the pull have your squishy's stand waaay back or they will most likley be 1 shoted

steelbadger

04-26-2009, 01:26 PM

<cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>couple of words for you on your pulls, have the templar use Sanctuary. no more stuns, no more stifles, get ya some agro.Edit: the one thing I will say about this zone is the ae's from the trash is rediculous. even if you do range it or have the mt just run and turn the mobs, if someone gets hit by it and isn't fast enough to cure, they are dead. the ae's tick for way to much damage per tick. this is not a good way to get people to learn how to raid, it will frustrate them and you will end up with people like the OP.</blockquote>How many times does this have to be said: Interrupt the AOEs. Last time I was in the zone the raid was hit by 2 aoes, once because of a line of sight issue and once because I was noob and forgot to hit my interrupts <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />Nearly every class have a fast recasting interrupt ability. Use them and the trash mobs become very easy. As a guard I have two, my primary single target taunt and my kick line, between them I can almost 100% guarantee that the AoEs wont hit (unless I make a stupid mistake). I know not all tanks have 2 interrupts, but I know that chanters have fast casting interrupts coming out of their noses, and most scouts can do something similar.

Maamadex

04-26-2009, 01:28 PM

As far as i know you can't single pull the books, they all come no matter what, you have to have aoe aggro like crazy. Two tanks is how we do it. They all come together and there are 3 waves. And the gear is vastly superior to VP due to crit mit being on it.

Ran

04-26-2009, 02:12 PM

@op pls take these advices serious and try it again. This raidzone is not meant to be a training zone where you get smashed with comparable/better loot than VP. You have to figure things out and.. if you loose aggro in a groupzone or KoS... no one will die, in T8 raidzones and this one they will. You don't even need to buy signets.. you can use your classes.Groupsetup... I wrote some, others wrote some.. defiler/mystic and coercer so you have a tank, dirge, swasbuckler, templer and those two for mt, ot is illu, truba and what you wanne fill in... . Why do you think that people are crying that their classes have no utilities in raid? exactly because of this. If a raidzone is easy, you can setup your groups like you want so other classes will kept out because you don't need them. In WoE you need your key classes to success, this does not mean that you can't go in with your friends, this just mean someone can't take his main in there.

Kander

04-26-2009, 02:24 PM

Timetraveling and I have no plans to make this zone any easier, we feel that the challenge vs reward is about right. If there is anything you feel that is a flat out bug and needs to be fixed, please feel free to PM either him or me and we'll look into it ASAP.In other news, we have another x2 coming soon, that will be a tad more... challenging.

Novusod

04-26-2009, 02:28 PM

<cite>Kander wrote:</cite><blockquote>In other news, we have another x2 coming soon, that will be a tad more... challenging.</blockquote>Sounds awesome can't wait for it.

LygerT

04-26-2009, 02:38 PM

to the OP:doesn't sound like you haven't tried anything that you shouldn't have but you aren't remembering that the issue may not even be related to you. the problem is your healer. tell him/her to spam cure on you as you are body pulling, find one that is better or drop in a shaman into your group and drop the wizard. if you feel you shouldn't have to move people around then you really need to push your healer to remember that the cure button is there for a reason and it is one of their most IMPORTANT buttons in TSO.if you feel you shouldn't need a more optimal group to succeed then i can only say to you: no, there is absolutely no issue with the difficulty of the zone, no more than palace of ferzuhl is for non raid geared players.

Kreagan De'Unerro

04-26-2009, 03:02 PM

Your group make ups are completely horrid imo. Putting 2 druids in same group nets you nothing in return. I am a guard and have solo tanked this zone with no issues, but yet again I prob have much better gear and people around me then you.Now the one thing I can suggest is stop relying on taunts to manage your agro. Get your Double Attack and Melee Crit up. Also increase your Slahing ability. This will help you generate more agro then any taunt will for you. Never ever body pull if you are getting pre-healed/warded, you are asking to get your healers killed. Orange con mobs will almost 99.9% of the time resist a taunt on pull because they are not debuffed. Start off with Decimate on every pull you can follwed by Accelerated Strike then Seige(for multi mob encounters). Use Sentry Watch on pull, pre pull, this can save your healers in your group. Use Intercede if the pull goes bad, rescue even. Reinforcement should be used often, recast timers on rescue and reinforcement should be roughly 2-3mins(depending on your AA spec).make sure healers are curing the detrimentals asap, especially near the water djinn, on pull those trash mobs will AoE a elemental that will drop almost anyone. Keep the rest of the raid 20m behind until pull is stabilized, MT group should be able to handle this AoE on pull.Now your group make ups need help:MT group:Any Plate tank, any cleric(with max shield ally), any shamen, dirge, any chanter, any other(doesnt matter imo)Other group:Druid, and either a shammy or cleric, troub, wizzy/warlock, brigand, ranger,etc...I have also done this zone on my dirge with lesser geared tank solo tanking this zone. This zone is really not too tough after you get to know it. Learn the zone, bang your head against a mob or encounter until you know it inside and out. It is practice. For my guild to take down some of the raid mobs we could put 25-40hrs over a couple weeks time just learning every aspect of the encounter, including AoEs, resists needed, when to joust or cure what. That is why it is x2 raiding and not a simple group instance instance.

Aneova

04-26-2009, 03:02 PM

Yavie

04-26-2009, 03:14 PM

Nothing wrong with using druids as healers, but in this zone you also most defiinitely need plate and chain healers. I have had the great pleasure of taking a warden into this zone on test copy when they were first working on it. I refuse to even try to take my non fully T2 geared warden on live into this zone unless she is respecced from melee warden to healer warden and has her miracles/blessings up as well as potions for self cures so she can keep focused on MT.This zone is for casual raiders that are willing to learn new tricks. Although if you come from a raiding background that is a big plus if you ask me. But for casual raiders, keep trying. I think in the end you will be very happy. Remember, any time a new zone comes to the game, it is a good day to die. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Noaani

04-26-2009, 03:19 PM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can accept constructive "L2P" suggestions such as these but I would also like to see SOE either adjust this crazy, stupid zone that is just like KC during Kunark beta OR re-advertise the zone as to the proper gear/level and expectations are needed BEFORE folks should think about trying it.</blockquote>If you look for developer posts on the zone, you will find out fairly quickly that the zone is intended for players at the end of TSO heroic progression.The statement was along the lines of if you don't have full T2 shard armour, the best of the jewelery from TSO zones, your fabled epic and 180 achievements (or better, in any of the above), then you simply don't belong in WoE. The understanding that it is a raid zone and that players need to use raid tactics should not need explaining.if you are serious about wanting to run this zone in a successful manner, someone needs to learn how to set up a raid, including what classes need to be bought and for what reasons (hint, shamans are important for a raid for reasons other than wards!).The zone is not "hard", but it is definatly a raid zone. Going in to it with the same mentality you would take into any of the TSO heroic instances (save maybe PoF and Guk outer) is just asking for trouble.

Elanjar

04-26-2009, 03:23 PM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>So far I appreciate the constructive feedback, I do have a question though.Do you all consider these to be reasonable suggestions and expectations of game play for the FIRST TRASH mobs of a 12 person zone?So far the suggestions are things like having a more "perfect" set of classes - why? we had heals, tanks, a control and dps - why does it have to be a very granular specific flavor of those things? Those are rhetorical for SOE, I know the real answer it is because that "is the way it is right now".Suggestion is pull with CA instead of taunt, ok - I can try that.We were successful the first time, I believe, because we had 2 illys on our first run and they ended up spamming stuns and mezs and all their things they can do. This time 1 Illy and we would wipe in about 3 seconds flat each time.I can accept constructive "L2P" suggestions such as these but I would also like to see SOE either adjust this crazy, stupid zone that is just like KC during Kunark beta OR re-advertise the zone as to the proper gear/level and expectations are needed BEFORE folks should think about trying it.It is my opinion, yes - opinion, that game play that forces granular specific classes as well as potions/insignias/immunities are NOT in-line with past precendents in heroic content or any heroic level previous to this zone AS WELL AS the ONLY other x2 raid zones in the ENTIRE game which are the city guild writ raids which we are masters of and hold most of the server discoveries for all the loot in those raids.We are not bad players or need to "L2P" our classes, we just are NOT raiders in the traditional raiding game. There is NO progression from heroic to raiding and this zone only proves it that much more.The current state of this game is that you have a solo game which is approachable and easy to learn, you then progress to a heroic game which is ALMOST EXACTLY like the solo game but with harder mobs and the requirement to work with other characters to beat down the huge HPs.Then there is this leap to raiding which you then basically have to re-learn how to play the game entirely, nothing is intuitive, you need 6 sets of gear, a bunch of other things like potions and insignias that you never needed before and you now have to start excluding your friends and such because they are not fitting the exact min/max mold needed to take down Mob X in Zone Y but stay close by though since we need to switch to ranged/jousting for the next named around the corner.That unrealistic and unmanageble leap of game design and game play is what I have issue with.The issue is NOT that it exists, I am fine with the raid game being what it is and I am glad that many folks enjoy it.My issue is that SOE advertised this new content x2 size raid zone that they have NOT introduced since the city guild raids which were put in like 4 years ago now. Really 4 YEARS we have been waiting for our next end game content and Ward of Elements was labeled as that for us.Non-mythical and tier 2 void shard armor - check. We have that. We have raided ALL the x2 raid content in this game and MASTERED IT. We are competent heroic content players, we have played most of it and mastered most of it.OUR next step of PROGRESSION in this game is Ward of Elements. That is OUR end game AND it was advertised as such.That is my issue. Keep the rest of the game as is. You enjoy your parts, we are enjoying ours. But don't lie to us that you are finally releasing new endgame content for us and then it just be a 12 person version of the ridiculous raid game we can't and WON'T be a part of.</blockquote>Alright, you dont have to have "the perfect class setup", BUT there is some stuff you just have to have, sinceyou're basically going in with the minimum expected requirements for the zone. (minimum is T2 shard, fabled epic, mostly AD3) Since you're going in with the lower limit you are going to need a "more perfect setup". Also with your gear level I would say you guys will probably not be able to get past digg untill you've farmed the first 3 names for awhile.Although the zone is designed to be a progression for casuals (non raiders that is), It is still a raid zone, and it does drop some beast loot. It is not and should not just be like another instance run. The trash in this zone are very hard, I would actually say they are harder to deal with than the first 2 nameds. You'll learn to handle it.Now as for my advice to fix your problem. I believe guardians have 1 CA with a 100% hit rate. I would pull like this:pre-wards/healz up (use sanc if you really need to but its gonna be a long zone if you;re waitin for it every pull)direct target the x2 mob if you can see it (the rest are ^^^) use 100% hit rate CA, followed by encounter taunt. TELL you group to hold dps till you call dps in. Once you're unstunned or whatev reinforcement and blue AE. DPS in. Burn your target only.TADA

Allurana

04-26-2009, 03:54 PM

All very good suggestions, we will try them out.

Gaige

04-26-2009, 04:11 PM

Golbezz

04-26-2009, 04:42 PM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have 78 paid accounts in my guild and they are all of a very similar mindset to mine. We enjoy the heroic game and only dabble in the raid game that is actually reasonably doable by us (typically one tier back - we raid KOS often now - we have cleared Labs, AoA, Lyceum, almost all of Halls of Seeing - before that we did Godking when level 70 was max - did Darathir when level 60 was max and we will probably do VP when level 90 is max).Please either adjust this current content OR be honest and realistic as to the audience and the players that you ACTUALLY designed it for which is obviously the high end mythical raiders that "needed" a smaller raid zone to occupy them when they only have 12 folks available.</blockquote>The trash seems more difficult than most of the named in this zone but you will find it helps to have some sort of shaman and at least another tank. Lose the second fury and it will be easier. The yellow con trash isn't bad compared to what is deeper inside, there are some that do a nasty AE but that can be avoided depending on how you pull or if you just have the tanks rush them. If you are stunned, the OT can pick them up. I solo tanked most of the zone as SK, our guard has done the same, but it's a bit easier to have the OT there when you get to the book room.To be honest, if you are used to doing raids 1 tier back this zone is going to be way too difficult. I think the intent of the design was to make the raid zone possible with the T2 shard gear only if you worked on progression in the zone which means as you get more loot you can kill more named and also had a very organized raid force (as in not meant for casual players).The harsh realities of raiding:You can't just throw together a raid with the players you have online and expect to win.You need an organized raid force that can get the most out of their characters (not for casual players).Many classes that are popular for solo will bring your raid down if you have too many (like the 2 furies). Lacking certain classes (some sort of shaman in your raid) will make things much more difficult.Raiders need AA setups that are meant for raiding. If your Swashy has hate reduction and FD from the INT line that's not helping.Probably the most important thing you are seeing is that you will die over and over until you learn content and get better gear. This is part of learning current tier raid zones unless you wait for all the strats to be posted or do it 1 tier behind.

RafaelSmith

04-26-2009, 05:43 PM

Well....my guild has been able to sucessfully get thru the first 3 named in WOE on multiple occasions....with a variety of classes. Usually 3 healers......Inq/Fury in the MT(SK) and whatever we end up for 3rd healer in the 2nd group. I think the zone is just fine and does not need to be made easier. Not sure what to tell the OP...my guild seems lesser geared than his.....except we are smart and use a SK to tank =P Use pets to pull.......be careful and take out the wanderers when you can instead of letting them add. With enough practice...its easy to completely negate those dots.We are gettign close to taking out DIGG.......and looking forward to doing the rest although it will be some time.Again....please dont make this zone easier.....it has just enough challenge to make it interesting and being able to get thru it....even while struggling...makes us better players.

Kreagan De'Unerro

04-26-2009, 07:30 PM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>All very good suggestions, we will try them out.</blockquote>I was checking out your AA spec and ya need to respec your AAs, WIS line is such a waste you will get more DPS out of this one. This is what I use for AoE/instance encounters:STR-4/4/5 (i use to use 4/4/8 but have a ton of melee crit gear to make up for it)Agil- 4/4/8 (here is your AoE DPS ya need for instance tanking and multi encounter raid tanking)STA-4/4/8 (Double Attack= plenty DPS) - I use to use Shield Effectiveness from Gladiators revenge, but I mostly Dual Weild instances and WoE.INT- 4/8/8/2/1- Accelerated Strike is a MUST for any warrior with the endline for Relentless Assault(makes your CAs reuse faster)Guardian tree isnt too bad but you need to adjust your Shadow tree. Dump Ample Harvest & Hateful Assault, put 5 points in each Strategic Assault and Strikethrough, then make sure to get Defensive Minded and Setinel Strike.Make sure to time your autoattacks, if you do then you should be parsing really high and hold agro like a champ from the DPS classes. Only rotate your taunts if none of your CAs are up or you have them macroed into HOs.With that warrior spec I hit with my Guardian 8-10k DPS on fights in TSO instances, almost doubling most DPS classes that are non AoE. I have ran WoE in 1 jhours time using that spec, non stop pulls, grab as much trash as you can.I also have an SK alt, but crusader is not necessary to tank that zone.Better have adept3 or better spells, and Cure potions of each detriment for everyone you take on the WoE runs, or things wont be so good.GL

bluefish

04-26-2009, 07:56 PM

MonkeyBob

04-26-2009, 11:40 PM

My group of friends are doing WoE weekly - we have done it 4 times now. We are not completing the zone, but it supposed to be progressive. Its a blast. 1st attempt: we wiped on the trash a bit, worked out that the AoE was the problem, pet pulled the elementals, and from that point on was cake. got the 1st 3 named with a couple of wipes. The water elemental gave us a bit of grief (we killed it on our 4th attempt I think), but Digg frustrated us no end 2nd attempt: A couple of wipes on trash when we had adds, or people were not paying attention. 1st 3 named down with no wipes and after many, many attempts at Digg, we gave up for the night. We felt we made progress on the digg fight tho, and we got him down to about 20% a few times. 3rd attempt. No wipes on trash. No wipes on 1st 3 named. Got Digg on our 4th or 5th attempt. Moved on to Flamelord, got him down too after many attempts. 4th attempt. 1st 4 named down on 1st attempt. We failed on flamelord this week, but we were lacking 2 DPS types and we just didnt have enough dps this week. I think that this zone is perfect. Its challenging. It gives us a sense of achievement when we know we did better this time. We dont clear it in 2 hrs and then go "what do we do now?". We spend a few hrs in there, and come out with some good loot and next time the zone is easier. Please dont change it.

Gisallo

04-27-2009, 12:41 AM

First you need that tank group set up like what it is...a tank group in a raid, especially with the gear you have. Also imho if you are going to have a Guardian as the MT you need to have a bonafide OT group set up with either an SK or a Zerker because there are a few fights where you need adds picked up. If you want to try and 1 tank it, at your gear level, you are best served having an AE tank because of I would say 4 fights, with the gear spread you have though I would say you need an OT group, else after Digg its pretty much game over. Not because a properly geared and Spec'd Guardian can't AE tank, but because it is not optimal. You will be giving up stuff that will make your life SO MUCH easier on the named thats there while the adds are also pounding on ya. Also gives the Guards healers a break since they are only worrying about the named damage..let the OT and his healers worry about the adds and their damage. Your healers also HAVE to be on the ball and your tanks need to know how to manuver groups so the raid doesn't get hit by a frontal. The core of the issue is this imho. Yes it is geared for "legendary" players but that pretty much means t2 shard armor minimum. When people saw this I think some figured they could also get by without building close to "ideal" groups. Problem is that with this being a x2 raid zone there is even less room for error. In a x4 raid you may be able to get by with a player or 2 (or3) slacking off a bit...not curing right away, not placing the mobs properly on pull or getting their debuffs in. Here, especially if you are on the minimum side of the "appropriate" gear scale, you NEED to have everyone firing on all cylinders. This was NEVER advertsied as a replacement for the city raids. It was advertised as a legendary geared raid zone based on the CURRENT raid paradigm. Some people though simply saw the word legendary and made certain assumptions. I can't blame them but prior to its release I was running around disavowing many a friend who did not raid of their perception.As for the leap to raiding not being intuitive I have to completely disagree. It is a logical extension of grouping. The thing is you need the proper foundation in the grouping environment. If you look at grouping as the microcosm and raiding as the macro from the beginning it is intuitive. You run into problems though if you insist (as many of my friends do) in thinking that you should not have to form ideal groups for instances. In the army we had a saying "train like you fight." Grouping is training for raiding. This is definitely doable by legendary geared people with average to good skill. The thing is though you need to treat it like it is, a x2 raid zone based on the 2008, not 2005 raid paradigm. This means yes legendary gear, but with properly formed groups with the requisite tank, dps,, heals and utility. Here is a group make up made by a friend opf mine which seems VERY logical and has worked most excellently. I Know this is not what some people expected from WoE because they were looking for something with a more casual mind set that was not so much into the "ideal" group make up. That being said again I must remind people games evolve. The City Raids of 2005 were x2 raids based generalkly on the x4 raids of the time. Now we have a x2 raid based on the x4 raids of the time. The fact that they made it so yuou could go in with legendary gear is GREAT and I welcomed that very much, but they were not going to change the basic premesis of contemporary raiding. Makes me a sad panda because I have only been in their on my Mystic and probably won't be in their on my "main" the Zerker until its pretty much on farm status, but its just been released and we are going in their with mixed groups of legendary and fabled characters so Valkenberg will just have to wait.First Group:<blockquote>A Main Tank (Warzon, Koraks, Kallia, ?) - Guardians - Tower of Stone, other "holy crap, lots of incoming damage!" prevention abilities. - ShadowKnights - I are uber, nuff said (AE, Bloodletter to prevent the one-shot wonders, etc).Defiler/Mystic (Sarphant, Galibier, Jenjamn, ?) - Ran with a mystic a few times and Galibier rocks, but [Removed for Content] a defiler would be cool (thinking VotA casting while stifled in an emergency, death wards, etc).Templar/Warden (Teffer, Lighthard, Florence, Ravenwind, Starchaser(Star-something?), ?) - Templar for stoneskin, fast reactives, HP buff, divine recovery, etc. - Warden for Ward of the Untamed, quick heals/HoTs, group cures.Coercer (Pulsedriver, Cindar, ?) - Coercer for hate transfer, power regen, DPS.Swashy (Revi, Roalin, ?) - Hate transfer, DPS, and fast recasting AE blocker.Dirge (Sangster, Feersong, Requiemx, ?) - Stoneskin, battle rez, melee buffs for swashy and tank, and second AE blocker.</blockquote>Second Group:<blockquote>Second Tank/DPS (Koraks, Kallia, or full out DPS class) - If main tank is a Guardian, this is the perfect spot for an SK. DPS while not off tanking and both mages and SK benefit from casting group.Massive DPS class (Upirus, Scalze, ?) - Read: Upirus or anyone that benefits from Feral.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/Faces/face_grin.gif" />Fury/Inquisitor (Dera, Wilhan, ?) - Fury - Quick heals, extra DPS, buffs for mages in the group, melee buff for massive DPS class, group cure noxious/elemental, and AE blocker. - Inquisitor - Reactives, tenacity, and divine recovery... DPS goodness.Illy (Alluriana, Cirinde, Vids, ?) - Mage buffs, IA, power regen, massive DPSWizard/Warlock (Alomar, Gillroy, ?) - DPS, "too much awesome"Mystic (Galibier, Jenjamn, ?) - Leaving out a trouby, ancestry and ritual of alacrity (if spec'd) provides some extra DPS bonus for DDers, etc. Also has group arcane cures and wards to prevent squishies from getting one shot killed by critical AEs.</blockquote>

Orthureon

04-27-2009, 01:38 AM

Another tip that most tanks never seem to listen to. Healers can pre-heal on ANY pull that can be absorbed by intervene. Pre-heal, cast intervene, body pull. I get killed a lot because tanks fail to grasp this concept.

Meirril

04-27-2009, 01:45 AM

<cite>Kander wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timetraveling and I have no plans to make this zone any easier, we feel that the challenge vs reward is about right. If there is anything you feel that is a flat out bug and needs to be fixed, please feel free to PM either him or me and we'll look into it ASAP.In other news, we have another x2 coming soon, that will be a tad more... challenging.</blockquote>IMO Ward of Elements mobs are just like x4 raid zone mobs, except with less hit points. They hit just as hard, they require a lot of tricks that the tier 2 and 3 raidzones do. If you have a "casual" raid group that can make it past 4 Bosses in WoE you can take the same 12 people and clear PR. Part of the problem you have here is that until your healers, tank and enchanter know the zone you don't have the luxury of another 2 healers to spam heal you from outside of group like you would in a x4 raid.One thing I really, really don't like about the build for this zone is that for non-mythical players you NEED enchanters. Without them the 4 mob encounters just do too much damage to a non-mythical tank for non-mythical healers to cope with, especially if your top DPS in your raid is less than 4k because they don't have their mythical/fully mastered/fully fabled gear. The gap between an average non-raiding Assassin's DPS (4k) and a top tier Assassin's (19k) dps is just stupid.

Noaani

04-27-2009, 02:02 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO Ward of Elements mobs are just like x4 raid zone mobs, except with less hit points. They hit just as hard, they require a lot of tricks that the tier 2 and 3 raidzones do. If you have a "casual" raid group that can make it past 4 Bosses in WoE you can take the same 12 people and clear PR. Part of the problem you have here is that until your healers, tank and enchanter know the zone you don't have the luxury of another 2 healers to spam heal you from outside of group like you would in a x4 raid.One thing I really, really don't like about the build for this zone is that for non-mythical players you NEED enchanters. Without them the 4 mob encounters just do too much damage to a non-mythical tank for non-mythical healers to cope with, especially if your top DPS in your raid is less than 4k because they don't have their mythical/fully mastered/fully fabled gear. The gap between an average non-raiding Assassin's DPS (4k) and a top tier Assassin's (19k) dps is just stupid.</blockquote>Basically, all of this can be replied to with the simple statement: yes, this is a raid zone.Like it or not, raids have requirements to them. One of those requirements is a plate tank, another is a shaman, another is an enchanter. Why would WoE be any different? because its a raid for 12 people instead of 24?An assassin that is parsing 4k in TSO shold probably reroll as a healer, or start caring about their class. This zone is not for undergeared players or players that don't attempt to play their class to its fullest. Non raiding assassins are ablt to parse 8k without issue.

Davngr1

04-27-2009, 02:12 AM

i think the problem is that people(including my self) where expecting a zone they could take pick up raids to and clear but instead got a zone you actually need some organization for. in short a pick up raid(unless all myth/fabled) won't be clearing this zone anytime soon, you will need a well equiped(t2) and cohesive raid.

Ran

04-27-2009, 02:12 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>for non-mythical players you NEED enchanters.</blockquote>unlimited manaregCoercer: hatebuff/transfer, dps single buff, single healbuff, 16% healcrit groupbuff, peace of mind, manawardIllu: Timecompressioon, proc single buff, peace of mind and since I don't know the rest... a lot of.So taking no chanters at all with you is just stupid. Like it or not but chanters will give your two groups a hugh push.Like others pointet out.. raiding doesn't mean to take all of his buddies into a zone and while talking about last night or that nice chick nextdoor clearing a x2 Raid Zone and getting comparable and better loot than another x4 Raid Zone same tier.Raiding does mean that your personal favourites doesn't count anymore. For this reason you can use your AA Mirror. I personal have only a raid and solo spec since it's not worth it to change for group content. Get ready for it since raider have to deal with it since the beginning of raiding.<div><a href="../user/profile.m?user_id=227651">@Davngr1</a></div><div></div><div></div><div>I did WoE with Pickup (which are mostly organised by people with mythical.. at least on our server) and we managed to kill all up</div><div></div><div>to the fire elemental. So you don't have to be "raidforce organized" you just have to do what your "leader" is saying and play</div><div></div><div>your class. Simple</div>

Davngr1

04-27-2009, 03:07 AM

<cite>Sziroten@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><div></div><div>I did WoE with Pickup (which are mostly organised by people with mythical.. at least on our server) and we managed to kill all up</div><div></div><div>to the fire elemental. So you don't have to be "raidforce organized" you just have to do what your "leader" is saying and play</div><div></div><div>your class. Simple</div></blockquote> point is it's not a simple script. thus you need solid cohesive organization. you admit that at least part of your raid was mythical and you dint clear the zone, now try that with non-myth pick ups lacking raid experiance... like i said, i expected it to be a pick up raid zone for casual players but in fact it's a pretty solid x2 raid zone for organized raid forces. no biggie just some people missunderstood the zones difficulty level.

Noaani

04-27-2009, 03:23 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>some people missunderstood the zones difficulty level.</blockquote>Yep.

Ran

04-27-2009, 04:16 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sziroten@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><div></div><div>I did WoE with Pickup (which are mostly organised by people with mythical.. at least on our server) and we managed to kill all up</div><div></div><div>to the fire elemental. So you don't have to be "raidforce organized" you just have to do what your "leader" is saying and play</div><div></div><div>your class. Simple</div></blockquote> point is it's not a simple script. thus you need solid cohesive organization. you admit that at least part of your raid was mythical and you dint clear the zone, now try that with non-myth pick ups lacking raid experiance... like i said, i expected it to be a pick up raid zone for casual players but in fact it's a pretty solid x2 raid zone for organized raid forces. no biggie just some people missunderstood the zones difficulty level.</blockquote>Reason why we didn't clean the zone was not based on our equip. It was based on around 10 people (including me) never have been in that zone, so didn't know the encounter.Further, managed first 3 nameds firstpull just while following the instructions of the guy who was allready in that zone. There is no magic in behind.We did 4 pulls on Flame Elemental but it was too late to try more. We had 1 sk and 1 guard which changed for tanking. Why a guard with more HP, with better equip, with better avoidiance and miti got killed way faster than a SK which is in all stats lower, maybe you can answer this. Also checking parses showes that the named did some times only 3k, some times up to 6k which leads me that debuffing was not properly done.That we couldn't clean it was based on playerskill.. this zone is not for "trying", it's for knowing and doing.Following instruction by whoever is doing the guide for the zone is not difficult... it's simple.

Windowlicker

04-27-2009, 08:25 AM

You should have an AE tank tanking the multi's. Guards have no ability to hold more then one mob, especially off a Conj with Illusionist buffs.We'll usually have the Berserker or SK tank all the multi's, and our Guard handles the single target named.

CalypsoCGN

04-27-2009, 10:17 AM

To the OP:You may have "mastered" all the old world x2 raids, but WoE is on a different level for shure. And this is where the old "L2P-arguments" come into account. I don't like these arguments either, BUT you just cant insist in clearing WoE without progressing in the way you play your characters and organise a raid. To be honest saying "learn to play" is probably wrong too. It's more like "learn to maximise the potential of your class" and "learn to know how different classes work together in a group / raid". Knowing which classes compliment each other and which are "needed" for a proper setup is essential. This isnt old world content anymore. Since RoK the game changed quite a bit. Mobs hitting way harder, curing is even more essential and so on and so on.Your group-setup was quite bad... No shaman and no coercer in MT-group and two druids in the second group?!? You could have at least switched the wizzie and the conj over (which would have given you a tad more defense from his group-buff) but with a setup like this and only 2 healers that can effectively heal (since the druids will just block each others heals) you wouldnt have make it far in either way.You said you got stunned. You got a Templar in group. If he doesnt use Santuary on pull after he noticed you got stunned....then well...he needs to "adjust his gameplay"... Also the stun is a curable effect and if all of your healers just didnt cure that, then the last argument is valid for them aswell... You had 2 druids in group 2, so one of them could have just spammed you with cures and it wouldnt even have made a difference in healing for this group, as 2 druids just dont work together on healing.Did everyone of you have the best possible AA setup for their class-role or were you using solo- / personal-favor specs?? If I would run a raid on my Defiler with my personal soloing-aa setup I would plain and simple suck, compared to what I am able to put out in my pure healing spec.WoE is nowhere near too hard. Look at what you can get out of there. This is not meant to be a loot pinata zone. No way in hell it should be toned down in difficulty. For people who are progressing through the x4-zones this may not be too much difficulty at all and for people who dont raid (yet are able to complete all group-zones in tso) this bears a nice challenge with quite some rewarding loot. Some of the loot is the best you can get even as "x4-raider" untill you are able to kill the last few bosses in the x4-zones. And with that in mind it shouldnt get toned down at all.

Kreagan De'Unerro

04-27-2009, 10:55 AM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should have an AE tank tanking the multi's. Guards have no ability to hold more then one mob, especially off a Conj with Illusionist buffs.We'll usually have the Berserker or SK tank all the multi's, and our Guard handles the single target named.</blockquote>Wrong, a guard can handle multiple mobs, if specd and played right. I can handle roughly 10-16 mobs in my AoE spec with dirge hate, up against a decent warlock with Illy buffs.The guard is not as gimped as some people make us out to be, it is all about the player playing the toon.

Yimway

04-27-2009, 11:31 AM

Noaani

04-27-2009, 11:31 AM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can handle roughly 10-16 mobs in my AoE spec with dirge hate, up against a decent warlock with Illy buffs.</blockquote>No you can't. The only way you will be able to hold them for more than 13 seconds is if the warlock is holding back or is dead.A good warlock on 10 mobs should be putting out 50k DPS if agro is not an issue. Any tank is able to hold aggro if their DPS lets them, but that is no means to judge how good a tank is at holding aggro.

RafaelSmith

04-27-2009, 11:44 AM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should have an AE tank tanking the multi's. Guards have no ability to hold more then one mob, especially off a Conj with Illusionist buffs.We'll usually have the Berserker or SK tank all the multi's, and our Guard handles the single target named.</blockquote>Wrong, a guard can handle multiple mobs, if specd and played right. I can handle roughly 10-16 mobs in my AoE spec with dirge hate, up against a decent warlock with Illy buffs.The guard is not as gimped as some people make us out to be, it is all about the player playing the toon.</blockquote>May I ask what is your AoE spec? I know about the AGI line but curious if there is other AA choices that help us with AoE?. I struggle alot when I have to deal with more than 3 mobs. I have 199 AAs...hopefully the final 200th soon so am trying to make myself a solid build for tanking instances and such with all the AE.

Yimway

04-27-2009, 11:47 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can handle roughly 10-16 mobs in my AoE spec with dirge hate, up against a decent warlock with Illy buffs.</blockquote>No you can't. The only way you will be able to hold them for more than 13 seconds is if the warlock is holding back or is dead.A good warlock on 10 mobs should be putting out 50k DPS if agro is not an issue. Any tank is able to hold aggro if their DPS lets them, but that is no means to judge how good a tank is at holding aggro.</blockquote>He can if he aoe roots (plant), reinforces, then hits 3 pb aoe's. Providing the warlock is out of melee range, and burns it all down in < 12s aggro was held primarily by means of root. Not exactly repeatable on every pull though, but it works for very short durration.

Noaani

04-27-2009, 11:53 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can handle roughly 10-16 mobs in my AoE spec with dirge hate, up against a decent warlock with Illy buffs.</blockquote>No you can't. The only way you will be able to hold them for more than 13 seconds is if the warlock is holding back or is dead.A good warlock on 10 mobs should be putting out 50k DPS if agro is not an issue. Any tank is able to hold aggro if their DPS lets them, but that is no means to judge how good a tank is at holding aggro.</blockquote>He can if he aoe roots (plant), reinforces, then hits 3 pb aoe's. Providing the warlock is out of melee range, and burns it all down in < 12s aggro was held primarily by means of root. Not exactly repeatable on every pull though, but it works for very short durration.</blockquote>That, obviously, is the 13 seconds I was talking about.

Windowlicker

04-27-2009, 01:31 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should have an AE tank tanking the multi's. Guards have no ability to hold more then one mob, especially off a Conj with Illusionist buffs.We'll usually have the Berserker or SK tank all the multi's, and our Guard handles the single target named.</blockquote>Wrong, a guard can handle multiple mobs, if specd and played right. I can handle roughly 10-16 mobs in my AoE spec with dirge hate, up against a decent warlock with Illy buffs.The guard is not as gimped as some people make us out to be, it is all about the player playing the toon.</blockquote>Your talking to someone that just betrayed his Guardian, and had a Warlock for a main for years. No, your Guard can't hold hate off a well played warlock.Come over to mistmoore and I'll demonstrate for you if you'd like. The Guardian is the weakest plate tank in the game at holding multi-target hate.

Yimway

04-27-2009, 01:54 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like it or not, raids have requirements to them. One of those requirements is a plate tank, another is a shaman, another is an enchanter. Why would WoE be any different? because its a raid for 12 people instead of 24?</blockquote>Saturday's group cleared it with no enchanter, just sayin. A bard or an enchanter is needed, not both or one specifically.

Kreagan De'Unerro

04-27-2009, 10:31 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should have an AE tank tanking the multi's. Guards have no ability to hold more then one mob, especially off a Conj with Illusionist buffs.We'll usually have the Berserker or SK tank all the multi's, and our Guard handles the single target named.</blockquote>Wrong, a guard can handle multiple mobs, if specd and played right. I can handle roughly 10-16 mobs in my AoE spec with dirge hate, up against a decent warlock with Illy buffs.The guard is not as gimped as some people make us out to be, it is all about the player playing the toon.</blockquote>Your talking to someone that just betrayed his Guardian, and had a Warlock for a main for years. No, your Guard can't hold hate off a well played warlock.Come over to mistmoore and I'll demonstrate for you if you'd like. The Guardian is the weakest plate tank in the game at holding multi-target hate.</blockquote>Our warlock parses 40k on the trash trap after Tythus on way to Mynzak.Just got done doin NHT with him, my alt pocket dirge, guild defiler, templar and a 77 necro. mass pull all encounters down halls at one time. Roughly 12-16mobs depending, 3 encounters. He never died once and only got agro mostly from a wanderer that got caught in his AoE, but I picked it up quick.I have 85% melee Crit with 80% DA with my dirge buffs. My Auttoattack AoE goes off constantly. I can easily parse 8-10k in my AoE/DPS spec with many mobs. Choker, JoA, and DW.Moderate on Warlock and Dirge buff FTW!Run through and use Guard on first encounter, Sentry Watch , Accelerated Strike on next, Impede on next encounter, Reinforcement, Siege on 4th encounter after grouping all together, AoE auttoattack, Dragoon Spin, AoE autoattack, Slanderous Assault on encounter with most mobs still up. Most dead in 15-20secs, warlock lives. I never really use the root ever, it slows me down too much. I cycle my targets really quick.Don't tell me it can't be done cause I do it, been doing it for years. Always played with Warlocks for as long as I been playing and prefer a warlock over any other mage for my groups. Most people I play with say I play a guard like a zerker the way I pull and hold agro. Some tell me to betray to zerker, but I refuse to since I am almost fully mastered from 1-80.

Beghard

04-28-2009, 01:38 AM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I expect to see the normal flames and "L2P" stuff that comes from most of the vocal folks on these boards but I would also appreciate seeing honest feedback from similar players such as myself on this issue and maybe even a dev response that this is NOT intended game play for this first and publicly stated intended purpose raid zone of "casual raiders with fabled epics and void shard armor".First I would like to give the scenario of last night (very briefly) and then i will tell you our set up:We did not get past the first static spawn group of 4 linked mobs in the right hand hallway that leads down to the first and easiest named. It is the 4 linked mobs where 2 are visible and 2 are not outside of aggro range.There is one roaming mobs that we did kill before attempting that static group and then there is another roaming mob in that side hall which we were able to NOT aggro on many of our attempts to take down that static group.This was NOT our first trip to Ward of Elements and we have been successful in taking down the first 2 nameds previously but couldn't even attempt the third named on our maiden trip in because we couldn't even survive the trash mobs at the door of that room.Now our setup:80 Guardian with 8870ish constant mitigation, 12700ish constant avoidance and 10,700 ish mitigation for 30 seconds with pull buffs. Fabled Epic, fully adorned, almost fully mastered, full tier 2 void shard armor, full tier 2 void shard jewelry.Everyone was level 80 (of course) - main group had guard, temp, dirge, swash, fury, wizard / second group had conj, illy, wizard, fury, warden, and another class (can't remember - didn't commit it to memory since I didn't know at the time I was going to write this post)Most of the 12 folks had their fabled epics and most have full tier 2 if not a smattering of Tier 1 and Tier 2 and everyone is at least adept 3s in spell level.What happened, repeatedly: (the first roaming mob is already dead and not an issue at this point)First pull was a body pull (worked the first time we were here). Guard put on every temp buff they have, get pre-warded, pre-healed etc.... Just a plain body pull since on the first pull we were not sure where the 2nd roamer was on his path.As soon as all 4 mobs were visible and reasonably clear (barely around the corner) of social aggro of the 2nd roamer I was going to try and use any and all taunts I had.I pull, I immediately get stunned or stifled or something that didn't allow me to cast. The 4 mobs run straight to all the healers that had pre-warded/healed me and "one shotted" them (not really one shotted but when you can smashed with so much damage so fast it might has been a one shot - you can't tell the difference since there is NOTHING you can do with it happens instantaneously). Then they ran right back to me since I can now finally cast a taunt and they basically one shot me. (the hit me for 2,500 to 4,000 crushing non-critical damage each and that is with the mentioned mitigation and avoidance above)Second pull someone had the brainwave of a pet pull. Ok, lets try that.Conjurer sends in pet, it gets one shotted. Mobs run toward the group, I fire off my fast group taunt which ALL FOUR of the mobs completely ignore somehow and one shot the conjurer and then come to me next and one shot me. Wipe #2 happens.Third pull, we decide that losing the conjurer pet so fast is a bad thing and try a pet pull with a Templar hammer. Same thing as the second pull but the templar dies first this time.Fourth pull, I get within casting range for my fast green encounter taunt but just out of aggro range.Everyone groups up semi-close just behind that and the plan was for me to start with an encounter taunt to try and get them to all come at me first and stop one shotting the non-tanks.Buffs up, pre-heals, etc... (btw...NO WAY is it possible to no pre-heal - we discovered that on the first trip here) - I cast the encounter taunt - since I am only line of sight on 2 of the 4 mobs, the first 2 come at me the second two go after the rest of the raid. This scenario gave us just enough time for the Illy to stun/mez/etc... for us to actually have a chance at this kill BUT....since we can pull them back very far without a one shot and we were fight so close to the stairs you can guess what happened.The 2nd roamer strolled close enough and joined in. We had it down to the last of 4 mobs when that happened and we wiped.We left in complete and utter disgust after that.This raid is TOO HARD. Last night was the FIRST TIME since I started playing EQ2 on Nov. 9, 2004 with my main character Allurana which is still my main character that I had considered cancelling all FOUR of my paid subscriptions and never coming back.I lived through LU13 and actually liked it, name all the guardians changes over the years and actually liked them all EXCEPT the massive nerf we took with TSO expansion came out and the promise we would be fixed with a fighter revamp 2.0 "soon" - it has been half a year already - give me back my dps if you won't make my taunts work and then you design C R A P content like this that you label to be usable by people EXACTLY geared and playstyle like me.We do not have our mythicals, we do not raid every other night and have a well oiled and polished raid force with ever min/maxed spell/potion/charm/etc...SUGGESTIONS:1. Make my taunts work - triple their taunt numbers currently on them for a quick fix or make the mobs actually have taunt do something like being unresistable COMPLETELY.OR2. Make mitigation actually mean something - I parsed last night. I was getting hit for 2,500 ish to mid 4,000 ish in damage PER HIT fast and furiously by those 4 mobs and NONE of the hits were criticals - (I have 13% crif mitigation from the tier 2 void armor I think). I think I have over 70% mitigation and well over 70% avoidance when I am pulling SHOULD I REALLY BE TAKING THAT MUCH NON-CRITICAL DAMAGE???? 4 mobs hit so fast and so hard NO ONE has a chance to do anything at all - I literall drop like I have been one shotted.Last night was categorically and undeniably UNFUN. Get a grip SOE with this raid design b.s. you are putting in the heroic level game and now the new x2 raid game that you claim is for us "lesser folks".I have 78 paid accounts in my guild and they are all of a very similar mindset to mine. We enjoy the heroic game and only dabble in the raid game that is actually reasonably doable by us (typically one tier back - we raid KOS often now - we have cleared Labs, AoA, Lyceum, almost all of Halls of Seeing - before that we did Godking when level 70 was max - did Darathir when level 60 was max and we will probably do VP when level 90 is max).Please either adjust this current content OR be honest and realistic as to the audience and the players that you ACTUALLY designed it for which is obviously the high end mythical raiders that "needed" a smaller raid zone to occupy them when they only have 12 folks available.</blockquote>You did it twice just fine and wiped the 3rd time in and some how thats SoEs fault? You go on to say that your not raiders in the trad sicne. Well excuse me but where did it say that this zone was NOT a raid zone, just beause its lower tier you think you can walk thru it willy nilly? Sorry, its still a raid zone, you under estimated it and you lost. Lesson learned.Also, the new 2x will be Crafter only and is inside of a spceial player housing instance and CT will go live as another PVP battle arena. It will come with new arena pets that can only be accessed if you have maximum faction with all the cities at the same time. There will be no new adventure zones for the duration.

Noaani

04-28-2009, 01:52 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like it or not, raids have requirements to them. One of those requirements is a plate tank, another is a shaman, another is an enchanter. Why would WoE be any different? because its a raid for 12 people instead of 24?</blockquote>Saturday's group cleared it with no enchanter, just sayin. A bard or an enchanter is needed, not both or one specifically.</blockquote>Should probably have said enchanter or good gear.With the right gear, almost any raid makup will get through this zone.

Ran

04-28-2009, 02:11 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like it or not, raids have requirements to them. One of those requirements is a plate tank, another is a shaman, another is an enchanter. Why would WoE be any different? because its a raid for 12 people instead of 24?</blockquote>Saturday's group cleared it with no enchanter, just sayin. A bard or an enchanter is needed, not both or one specifically.</blockquote>What does it proof? To have 2 good chanters with you will push your overall dps and are requirement for Zones which are still difficult for people to make it easier.People who know the zone can change their setup and don't need anymore a perfect group.. but this supposed to be clear ~~

Kaalenarc

04-28-2009, 06:43 AM

I think the issue some people are having is that the rest of The Shadow Odyssey is set up from end to end to take the casual player and introduce them to raiding. Think about it. Lots of instances, at varying degrees of difficulty and with gradually more difficult scripts. Upon hearing that the raid was an x2 soon to be followed by an x4, I think a lot of players figured that this would be their introductory raid for T8.I would argue that it should have been. But the reality is that its a fairly difficult zone. No, its not *too* hard, and probably shouldnt be adjusted at this late point. However, if the devs are even still reading this thread, at least know what you set some of the playerbase up to think.You make an entire expansion that takes a large chunk of your "casual" playerbase and give them the shard armor, progressively harder stuff, and they are going to expect tothen be able to raid. You shouldve graduated this raid that way too. with a progression.One could argue that the lower tiers are a good training ground for raiders, and probably be right. However, you have an "aging" playerbase. More and more players are hitting the cap and the "non raiders" are finding little else to do. This needed something more encouraging. Perhaps WoE shouldve had 2 or 3 raids that were x2 , increasing in difficulty, and then have had a full x4. As it is now, those of us who have raided all along can get through this, but a large segment is also feeling like perhaps all those hours of shard runs maybe wasted their time.Just my .02 copper.

Ran

04-28-2009, 07:23 AM

If we would just have easier T8 Zones..... oh we have O_OSo maybe all this shard armor stuff was made for casual player to start with RoK Zones and learn those first befor entering the harder Zones in TsO?

Freliant

04-28-2009, 09:38 AM

If things continue the way they are now, the disparity between raiders and non-raiders will be greater with each coming expansion, and eventually, the rift will be insurmountable. Non-raiders will find nothing to do and leave the game. Raiders will then have a failed economy, and no one to parade their winnings in front of, and will leave as well, leaving a husk of a former great game.

RafaelSmith

04-28-2009, 09:48 AM

<cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the issue some people are having is that the rest of The Shadow Odyssey is set up from end to end to take the casual player and introduce them to raiding. Think about it. Lots of instances, at varying degrees of difficulty and with gradually more difficult scripts. Upon hearing that the raid was an x2 soon to be followed by an x4, I think a lot of players figured that this would be their introductory raid for T8.I would argue that it should have been. But the reality is that its a fairly difficult zone. No, its not *too* hard, and probably shouldnt be adjusted at this late point. However, if the devs are even still reading this thread, at least know what you set some of the playerbase up to think.You make an entire expansion that takes a large chunk of your "casual" playerbase and give them the shard armor, progressively harder stuff, and they are going to expect tothen be able to raid. You shouldve graduated this raid that way too. with a progression.One could argue that the lower tiers are a good training ground for raiders, and probably be right. However, you have an "aging" playerbase. More and more players are hitting the cap and the "non raiders" are finding little else to do. This needed something more encouraging. Perhaps WoE shouldve had 2 or 3 raids that were x2 , increasing in difficulty, and then have had a full x4. As it is now, those of us who have raided all along can get through this, but a large segment is also feeling like perhaps all those hours of shard runs maybe wasted their time.Just my .02 copper.</blockquote>I completely disagree.SOE made WOE to be a challenging yet doable raid zone for players that have gotten all their T2 shard gear, have at least their fabled epic and have a few fabled instance or ROK gear. That is exactly what WOE is. My guild is a good example of who WOE was intended for. We had our T2 shard gear, had pretty much beaten all the TSO instances...but just do not have the numbers to hit the TSO x4. We were wondering what all that time spent getting the shard gear was for......well again that is what WOE is for.As for progression or being a intro to raiding........i think it does that as well. The first 3 named are pretty much simple tank and spank that just about any competent group of 12 can do.....the rest involve harder mobs and scripts so will take some learning. In terms of dificulty I place WOE somewhere between SoH/PR and TMC.

SpineDoc

04-28-2009, 09:58 AM

Seems like this is the present not the future.<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>If things continue the way they are now, the disparity between raiders and non-raiders will be greater with each coming expansion, and eventually, the rift will be insurmountable. Non-raiders will find nothing to do and leave the game. Raiders will then have a failed economy, and no one to parade their winnings in front of, and will leave as well, leaving a husk of a former great game.</blockquote>

RoryBradwarden

04-28-2009, 10:47 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i think the problem is that people(including my self) where expecting a zone they could take pick up raids to and clear but instead got a zone you actually need some organization for. in short a pick up raid(unless all myth/fabled) won't be clearing this zone anytime soon, you will need a well equiped(t2) and cohesive raid.</blockquote>I agree 100% ---- many people were expecting a zone you could do with a pick up raid --- maybe they will make one in the future <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /> As many have said ..... this is not what many people expected.

Kreagan De'Unerro

04-28-2009, 10:51 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>If things continue the way they are now, the disparity between raiders and non-raiders will be greater with each coming expansion, and eventually, the rift will be insurmountable. Non-raiders will find nothing to do and leave the game. Raiders will then have a failed economy, and no one to parade their winnings in front of, and will leave as well, leaving a husk of a former great game.</blockquote>Thats the way raiding is. Either you do it and get fat lootz, or you don't and do not get fat lootz.Raiding is about putting serious time in learning something, not about zoning in and hit a couple buttons and expect the encounter to give you their treasures.If you are not a raider then you are not putting up to 20-40hrs learning a new raid mob before dropping it. So you should not expect to have the same gear that a raider would.I do not need to parade my winnings to anyone. I really could care less about loot anyway imo. I would raid naked, as long as after all the time spent i still get that feeling of accomplishment of killing a mob with friends as a team.

RafaelSmith

04-28-2009, 11:08 AM

<cite>Vendeta@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>As many have said ..... this is not what many people expected.</blockquote>But it is what SOE promised. To expect SOE to nerf something that for the most part is working as described and intended because it did not meet some false expectations is crazy.

RoryBradwarden

04-28-2009, 11:17 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vendeta@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>As many have said ..... this is not what many people expected.</blockquote>But it is what SOE promised. To expect SOE to nerf something that for the most part is working as described and intended because it did not meet some false expectations is crazy.</blockquote>I did not say they should nerf it ..... when they said the new zone was for legendary geared players, many wrongly presumed it would be a zone that could be done by casual pick up raids ..... I think they would make many folks happy if they would put in a zone that could be done by a casual pick up raid .... no matter the loot. I did not say they should change this one.

Yimway

04-28-2009, 01:02 PM

This thread inspired me to join a PuG force on WoE on my coercer last night. She's an alt and had an open timer and as a coercer couldn't give a crap about shard gear (seriously devs look at enchanter gear and how enchanters raid).Anyway, this pug was actually about 8 people of some non-raid guild and random fill ins.Armed with the strat to everything in the zone, this group failed at Digg. The trash went down, even though the MT/leader refused to listen to simple ways to prevent the frontal from landing on the raid. Had to hand out potions to everyone instead of following simple instructions, but that got us past trash.The first 2 nameds went down easy of course, the 3rd they had been wiping to. I explained a far more efficient strat than they had been trying and it went down first pull. They almost managed to screw it up by not effectively managing curse cure calls, but luckily the curse has a really long reaction time.For Digg, wiped at 90% the first time as the runner learned how to raise/lower the platforms and found the badger. Wiped at 80% as the runner learned you really have to listen when I call 'get in' calls. Wiped at 75% when runner learned you have to get mushroom when told to, not casually wait for the bubble then go get the mushroom. Then wiped at 30% 3 more times. These final wipes were the 2 different people doing the running not listening. Even told not to attack digg and just get the required totem as it spawned, they instead would attack between runs. This of course put them into combat, and any little thing would cause them to auto-face digg while running to get a totem such that they would then fall to their deaths.All in all, the pug was quite capable of beating digg, and I think they eventually will once the runners really understand its all about them doing the right thing and being patient.This pug however was doomed to failure on all further mobs as they brought a guard MT with Monk OT.So, atleast the first 4 mobs can be beat by a thrown together pug raid when spoon fed the information. I have my doubts on getting further in the zone without a little fore-thought given to what classes you bring.I do feel though, if you can bring a ST tank, an AoE tank, 4 healers, 2 mana regens, and sufficient dps for said group to do 30k output, you can in fact beat the zone. Thats the baseline for a successful run imo.Note - I forgot to mention the raid was primarily T2 shard gear with a smidgeon of 2 groupable SoH / RoK loots.

RafaelSmith

04-28-2009, 01:03 PM

<cite>Vendeta@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vendeta@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>As many have said ..... this is not what many people expected.</blockquote>But it is what SOE promised. To expect SOE to nerf something that for the most part is working as described and intended because it did not meet some false expectations is crazy.</blockquote>I did not say they should nerf it ..... when they said the new zone was for legendary geared players, many wrongly presumed it would be a zone that could be done by casual pick up raids ..... I think they would make many folks happy if they would put in a zone that could be done by a casual pick up raid .... no matter the loot. I did not say they should change this one.</blockquote>But it can be done by casual pickup raids wearing T2/Legendary gear...assuming of course they are good payers and know how to properly construct groups and follow directions.

RafaelSmith

04-28-2009, 01:09 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread inspired me to join a PuG force on WoE on my coercer last night. She's an alt and had an open timer and as a coercer couldn't give a crap about shard gear (seriously devs look at enchanter gear and how enchanters raid).Anyway, this pug was actually about 8 people of some non-raid guild and random fill ins.Armed with the strat to everything in the zone, this group failed at Digg. The trash went down, even though the MT/leader refused to listen to simple ways to prevent the frontal from landing on the raid. Had to hand out potions to everyone instead of following simple instructions, but that got us past trash.The first 2 nameds went down easy of course, the 3rd they had been wiping to. I explained a far more efficient strat than they had been trying and it went down first pull. They almost managed to screw it up by not effectively managing curse cure calls, but luckily the curse has a really long reaction time.For Digg, wiped at 90% the first time as the runner learned how to raise/lower the platforms and found the badger. Wiped at 80% as the runner learned you really have to listen when I call 'get in' calls. Wiped at 75% when runner learned you have to get mushroom when told to, not casually wait for the bubble then go get the mushroom. Then wiped at 30% 3 more times. These final wipes were the 2 different people doing the running not listening. Even told not to attack digg and just get the required totem as it spawned, they instead would attack between runs. This of course put them into combat, and any little thing would cause them to auto-face digg while running to get a totem such that they would then fall to their deaths.All in all, the pug was quite capable of beating digg, and I think they eventually will once the runners really understand its all about them doing the right thing and being patient.This pug however was doomed to failure on all further mobs as they brought a guard MT with Monk OT.So, atleast the first 4 mobs can be beat by a thrown together pug raid when spoon fed the information. I have my doubts on getting further in the zone without a little fore-thought given to what classes you bring.I do feel though, if you can bring a ST tank, an AoE tank, 4 healers, 2 mana regens, and sufficient dps for said group to do 30k output, you can in fact beat the zone. Thats the baseline for a successful run imo.</blockquote>Pretty much matches up to our experience so far in WOE. We have not beaten Digg yet but are getting close...abit closer with each try. Having just taken a stab at the other named I believe we are a ways off still. Mostly because we are lucky to peak at 25k dps.We typically run with SK, Guard, 3-4 healers and whatever else we can grab from guild or friends.

Yimway

04-28-2009, 01:22 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>Pretty much matches up to our experience so far in WOE. We have not beaten Digg yet but are getting close...abit closer with each try. Having just taken a stab at the other named I believe we are a ways off still. Mostly because we are lucky to peak at 25k dps.We typically run with SK, Guard, 3-4 healers and whatever else we can grab from guild or friends.</blockquote>Our SK is T2 shard / PoF geared. Maybe one or two x4 patterns. He also has his Myth.Anyway, our SK can trivially single tank the zone with just 3 healers in raid. Its something to consider if your having issues with inking enough dps up.Our Zerker and Pally, better geared than SK, can not do this. Classes remotely ballanced? Ya, right.

Morrolan V

04-28-2009, 01:56 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the issue some people are having is that the rest of The Shadow Odyssey is set up from end to end to take the casual player and introduce them to raiding. Think about it. Lots of instances, at varying degrees of difficulty and with gradually more difficult scripts. Upon hearing that the raid was an x2 soon to be followed by an x4, I think a lot of players figured that this would be their introductory raid for T8.I would argue that it should have been. But the reality is that its a fairly difficult zone. No, its not *too* hard, and probably shouldnt be adjusted at this late point. However, if the devs are even still reading this thread, at least know what you set some of the playerbase up to think.You make an entire expansion that takes a large chunk of your "casual" playerbase and give them the shard armor, progressively harder stuff, and they are going to expect tothen be able to raid. You shouldve graduated this raid that way too. with a progression.One could argue that the lower tiers are a good training ground for raiders, and probably be right. However, you have an "aging" playerbase. More and more players are hitting the cap and the "non raiders" are finding little else to do. This needed something more encouraging. Perhaps WoE shouldve had 2 or 3 raids that were x2 , increasing in difficulty, and then have had a full x4. As it is now, those of us who have raided all along can get through this, but a large segment is also feeling like perhaps all those hours of shard runs maybe wasted their time.Just my .02 copper.</blockquote>I completely disagree.SOE made WOE to be a challenging yet doable raid zone for players that have gotten all their T2 shard gear, have at least their fabled epic and have a few fabled instance or ROK gear. That is exactly what WOE is. My guild is a good example of who WOE was intended for. We had our T2 shard gear, had pretty much beaten all the TSO instances...but just do not have the numbers to hit the TSO x4. We were wondering what all that time spent getting the shard gear was for......well again that is what WOE is for.As for progression or being a intro to raiding........i think it does that as well. The first 3 named are pretty much simple tank and spank that just about any competent group of 12 can do.....the rest involve harder mobs and scripts so will take some learning. In terms of dificulty I place WOE somewhere between SoH/PR and TMC.</blockquote>I agree with Gaylon. This zone is exactly perfect as an introductory raid zone for the current style of raid zone/encounter in the game. If anyone thinks that raiding is about throwing 12 or 24 random folks together and traipsing through the zone the first time in, they need to be taught otherwise. This zone will do that. Raid zones (and harder heroic instances) are designed with easier mobs up front and hard (sometimes very hard) at the back. It can take weeks or months of consistent work to get geared up for and learn the strats on the harder mobs. If that's not what you want, don't raid.

feldon30

04-28-2009, 02:19 PM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you all consider these to be reasonable suggestions and expectations of game play for the FIRST TRASH mobs of a 12 person zone?Considering the rewards in this zone? Absolutely. Have you tried any of the other raid zones in TSO? They are even harder. Raiding requires every person in your two groups to step up and play their class to the fullest extent. You can't just breeze through it like Deep Forge.I can accept constructive "L2P" suggestions such as these but I would also like to see SOE either adjust this crazy, stupid zone that is just like KC during Kunark beta OR re-advertise the zone as to the proper gear/level and expectations are needed BEFORE folks should think about trying it.The zone rewards T3 Void Shard Armor and substantial other upgrades. If you make it like all the other x2 zones in the game which are totally [Removed for Content] and have totally [Removed for Content] gear, then nobody will run this zone.It is my opinion, yes - opinion, that game play that forces granular specific classes as well as potions/insignias/immunities are NOT in-line with past precendents in heroic content or any heroic level previous to this zone AS WELL AS the ONLY other x2 raid zones in the ENTIRE game which are the city guild writ raids which we are masters of and hold most of the server discoveries for all the loot in those raids.There are a few other x2 raid zones in the game including Ascent of Awakened. And you really should be running your x2 raid force through zones like Courts of Al'Afaz. The City Guild Writ Raids are all T7 and the mobs are all green, so you really should be able to clear them all with ONE group. If not, then I would say you are not ready for the Ward of Elements.We are not bad players or need to "L2P" our classes, we just are NOT raiders in the traditional raiding game. There is NO progression from heroic to raiding and this zone only proves it that much more.Does your guild clear the Guk dungeons? Veksar 2? Atrebe's Lab? Nu'Roga? If not, then no, you are not building up your progression. You are trying to leapfrog from Scion of Ice which requires no coordination and can be done with 3 players to Ward of Elements which is a real, live, raid zone.The issue is NOT that it exists, I am fine with the raid game being what it is and I am glad that many folks enjoy it.My issue is that SOE advertised this new content x2 size raid zone that they have NOT introduced since the city guild raids which were put in like 4 years ago now. Really 4 YEARS we have been waiting for our next end game content and Ward of Elements was labeled as that for us.Non-mythical and tier 2 void shard armor - check. We have that. We have raided ALL the x2 raid content in this game and MASTERED IT. We are competent heroic content players, we have played most of it and mastered most of it.The x2 raid content is T7. Everything is green to you. Nobody ever said that the test of being able to succeed in the Ward of Elements was whether you could sleepwalk through the x2 city writ raid zones. The test is whether you have run and cleared the Guk and Fens of Nathsar group zones.OUR next step of PROGRESSION in this game is Ward of Elements. That is OUR end game AND it was advertised as such.</blockquote>

Yimway

04-28-2009, 02:24 PM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you all consider these to be reasonable suggestions and expectations of game play for the FIRST TRASH mobs of a 12 person zone?</blockquote>First off, I don't really aggree with anything else you've said. However, I think swapping these trash with PoA trash would be more appropriate. The big, dumb, unchallenging trash in the x2 and the trash that require minor thinking in the x4. But thats just my 2cp.These x2 trash aren't particularly deadly, but they're more likely to kill someone than ToMC or PoA trash.

feldon30

04-28-2009, 02:31 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Non raiding assassins are ablt to parse 8k without issue.</blockquote>I LOLed.

Kizee

04-28-2009, 02:36 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Non raiding assassins are ablt to parse 8k without issue.</blockquote>I LOLed.</blockquote>Seems about right to me if they know what they are doing.I have an assassin in guild that has no raid gear but has mythical (not that you have to raid to get that anymore with all the guilds selling updates) and he parses AT LEAST 8k. I have seen him hit up to 13k on some fights.

Yimway

04-28-2009, 02:44 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Non raiding assassins are ablt to parse 8k without issue.</blockquote>I LOLed.</blockquote>This is only true in stacked groups imo.Solo vs dummies, I can only muster 6.5k on a non-raid geared assasin.With a dirge + illy + shaman, yeah 8k would be cake. Probably could get higher.

RafaelSmith

04-28-2009, 02:53 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>Pretty much matches up to our experience so far in WOE. We have not beaten Digg yet but are getting close...abit closer with each try. Having just taken a stab at the other named I believe we are a ways off still. Mostly because we are lucky to peak at 25k dps.We typically run with SK, Guard, 3-4 healers and whatever else we can grab from guild or friends.</blockquote>Our SK is T2 shard / PoF geared. Maybe one or two x4 patterns. He also has his Myth.Anyway, our SK can trivially single tank the zone with just 3 healers in raid. Its something to consider if your having issues with inking enough dps up.Our Zerker and Pally, better geared than SK, can not do this. Classes remotely ballanced? Ya, right.</blockquote>Yeah......our SK can single tank with 3 healers as well. But we are trying to look beyond just WoE and we need to get our other tank......as luck would have it.......ME =P some gear. But I know full and well having done the first 3 named numerious times that my presence there would be better served with just about any other class. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Once we are bored with farming the easy mobs then we will probably maximize group formation....i.e let the SK be the only tank and maximize the healing and raw DPS of the rest of the raid so they can take on the harder named in WoE.

craiglitw

04-28-2009, 03:30 PM

Well this is my response from a 100% mastered, TSO fabled, mythical guardian that ran this zone a couple times that won't give you a L2P answer.First did SOE say this was for people in T2 legendary gear/fabled epic? If so that is simply not true.The only people in T2 gear/fabled epic that are going to clear this zone are those who have mains in raid forces. This zone requires raid experience to defeat, not gear. And if you have that raid experience then you should be wearing Mythicals and TSO raid gear which will make this zone super easy.I would scratch this zone off your list and go form a raid force and work on clearing VP, it is easier. And if by some fluke chance you clear this zone in T2 gear/fabled .. then you need to go kill Trakanon and Byzola the very next moment because you are simply that good.Timetraveling and whoever have a hardcore player in mind for this zone, not casuals by any means. Its obvious to anyone who has grouped with casuals in their T2 sets and tried to do something like Palace, it just doesn't happen. This game is absolute extremes by design, and you need to take the correct path up to do certain content. Getting T2 gear and fabled epic is the next step for you to start clearing RoK and learning how to raid, not going into this zone.Say you still want to do this zone well I would suggest the following for your setup:Guard, Templar, Defiler, Coercer, Dirge, Swash/Assasin - MT group, don't deviate from this at allSK, healer, healer, illusionist, Troub, Wiz/Warlock - OT group, make sure healers aren't same like chain/chainAs a guard when you pull the groups of four use your aoe quick taunt then decimate the closest mob. From there pick the mob with the lowest hp and work him down first. All the sets have mobs with less hps so figure out who does and kill them first. At about 80% into the fight hit reinforce and do aoes to make sure you have agro on everything and continue on single target damage.Secondly the groups of two mobs consist of casters, run up and watch which one starts fight by casting. Use your single taunt and/or kick to interrupt it, this prevents all the aoes in the zone. No potions, no curing, nothing, just interrupt the caster and its easy mode for trash.First name have you backs to pillars and don't be by a fan, burn and loot.Second mob just have offtank grab adds, burn those first while guard holds name. Move to the name once adds down.Water mob move him between the towers when they illuminate, cure curses, burn and loot.Digg have the second tank picking up the statue that digg calls for and placing it back on him, you'll see the buff hit your detrimental window and thats how you know its working. Have them keep going out and getting another one statue. For a legendary guard this fight will be hard to live through, healers will have issues here and this may be where your raid force stops. Also he will say something like "snake" or "badger" and you won't see it up till you move to pick it up, not sure if its a graphics bug but it doesn't seem to be consistent. Just keep picking up the things over and over till he calls the next one for you to go get.The fire mob you won't beat. The idea is the off tank grabs the adds and his healer(s) keep him up while you burn the named. I've also done it where the off tank group burns on adds while MT group burns on name, this was a lot harder but is doable for a geared group.If you beat the fire mob then you can do the rest of the zone. Books you just need to clear 3 sets, use two tanks since aoes only pick up eight mobs. First tank aoe then second tank aoes back a bit further. Have the offtank go pick up the strays off the healers and such and keep the books in a tight area. You need to do it three times in a row without dying or the whole thing resets. If you beat three sets the name pops and kill it like normal. You may want to try having the SK MT here also if you aren't aoe specced, either works.The ogre guy after that is just an aoe joust. Kill the first add just outside of the aoe range while MT holds the name and one add. Once that one dead grab the next add. Once that add is dead you can joust in on the ogre. Watch for his casting animation to tell people to joust. Don't go too far out or the encounter resets.Aiden will be impossible for you currently. The idea is you get boulders and block the ports so when Aiden flys away you kill the remaining adds and then turn on him when he comes back, rinse and repeat till its dead. If you don't have the raid experience to deal with random group members not able to be there and others needing to pick up the slack you won't defeat this. Likewise the dps has to be much higher than the vast majority of casual groups will ever produce.You can waste your time in this zone but I would recommend if you are all wearing T2 gear (which is equivalent or better than everything out of pr, thuuga, execution, korsha, venril, and cod that you go do RoK and have more fun. This zone was not designed with you in mind, it was designed for the small population of experienced raiders that will find themselves without a game in the near future as more casual subscribers cancel their accounts due to failures like this zone; useless for raiders, impossible for casuals.

Yimway

04-28-2009, 03:43 PM

<cite>Mindeen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip>Say you still want to do this zone well I would suggest the following for your setup:Guard, Templar, Defiler, Coercer, Dirge, Swash/Assasin - MT group, don't deviate from this at allSK, healer, healer, illusionist, Troub, Wiz/Warlock - OT group, make sure healers aren't same like chain/chain<snip>The fire mob you won't beat. The idea is the off tank grabs the adds and his healer(s) keep him up while you burn the named. I've also done it where the off tank group burns on adds while MT group burns on name, this was a lot harder but is doable for a geared group.If you beat the fire mob then you can do the rest of the zone.<snip>Aiden will be impossible for you currently. <snip>You can waste your time in this zone but I would recommend if you are all wearing T2 gear (which is equivalent or better than everything out of pr, thuuga, execution, korsha, venril, and cod that you go do RoK and have more fun. This zone was not designed with you in mind, it was designed for the small population of experienced raiders that will find themselves without a game in the near future as more casual subscribers cancel their accounts due to failures like this zone; useless for raiders, impossible for casuals.</blockquote>1) Lose the guard, lose another healer, let the SK MT, bring 2 more dps. If your SK is less geared, bring the 4th healer and just drop the guard for dps.2) The fire mob has been beat by t2 geared folks, I know cause I've done it in alt groups. Just muster 30k sustained on named and either OT wrangle or let the SK tank it all. If you can muster 30k sustained, 3 healers can keep a reasonably geared SK up long enough to kill it. Now, I agree with your statement. If you can kill the fire elemental, you can win the zone.3) Aiden isn't impossible if you can clear the fire elemental. 2 people get ported, those 2 people have time to each bring 2 boulders up and block a total of 4 portals. This leaves 3 sets of 3 to kill in 30 seconds before aiden comes back. If you did 30k on fire elemental with a successful aoe tank, then you can kill these 9 mobs and win the fight.Success is far more based upon people learning the process of getting the boulders, getting 2 boulders every time, and getting back up to the top quickly. Success on aiden has little to do with gear or raid experience and everything about 2 random people from your raid being able to play the mario mini game effectively.It may take many pulls to teach people how to do it. Once you identify 2 good people, if you like you can just send them over without waiting on the port and get it done.

RafaelSmith

04-28-2009, 04:01 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) Lose the guard, lose another healer, let the SK MT, bring 2 more dps. If your SK is less geared, bring the 4th healer and just drop the guard for dps.</blockquote>QFT <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Yimway

04-28-2009, 04:41 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) Lose the guard, lose another healer, let the SK MT, bring 2 more dps. If your SK is less geared, bring the 4th healer and just drop the guard for dps.</blockquote>QFT <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Wish it wasn't true, I'm a guard afterall, but I'm teets on a bull in WoE.I'm generally there only cause I excell at the boulders for aiden, other than that I'm just half a real dps class.

RafaelSmith

04-28-2009, 04:59 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) Lose the guard, lose another healer, let the SK MT, bring 2 more dps. If your SK is less geared, bring the 4th healer and just drop the guard for dps.</blockquote>QFT <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Wish it wasn't true, I'm a guard afterall, but I'm teets on a bull in WoE.I'm generally there only cause I excell at the boulders for aiden, other than that I'm just half a real dps class.</blockquote>Maybe someday we will get to Aiden, then Ill have a 2nd reason to be in WoE. Currently my only purpose is to fetch totems for Digg <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

LygerT

04-28-2009, 05:12 PM

i don't think i ever saw the devs claim this zone was aimed at casuals in T2 shard gear, it still has all the elements of a decent challenge to both gear up, not T2 gear to complete the zone but to get gear and farm for a little while and polish up strats for each named to progress, just as you would in any true X4 raid zone.

RafaelSmith

04-28-2009, 05:26 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i don't think i ever saw the devs claim this zone was aimed at casuals in T2 shard gear, it still has all the elements of a decent challenge to both gear up, not T2 gear to complete the zone but to get gear and farm for a little while and polish up strats for each named to progress, just as you would in any true X4 raid zone.</blockquote>Its people making things up or reading what they want instead of what is written.From the GU notes:A brand new level 80 two-group raid instance has been added! This zone is balanced for players without a proliferation of raid gear, and should provide an exciting challenge to any group of 12! The first six bosses can be tackled in any order, and provide fantastic fabled loot with brand new armor sets upgraded from the tier 2 void shard sets, complete with new appearances! You can find it in Lavastorm beneath the Hollow Tower and Deep Forge.

LygerT

04-28-2009, 05:31 PM

the way they worded it is a little misleading. you do after all need T2 shard gear to get most upgrades to T3 gear anyways so that is a given that it is aimed at T2 geared players.

RafaelSmith

04-28-2009, 05:36 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>the way they worded it is a little misleading. you do after all need T2 shard gear to get most upgrades to T3 gear anyways so that is a given that it is aimed at T2 geared players.</blockquote>Yeah at a minimum the T2 gear requirment is valid. However, we at least have done the first 3 in WoE with several members of our 12 including healers not even having T2 gear.Again, WoE delivered as promised/described.

Baa

04-28-2009, 05:40 PM

It's my honest belief that this zone is geared perfectly to fit more casual guilds that are in full T2 and fabled epics. The real issue is that folks assume that they can go ahead and get their shards (mentored, solo quest, however) and go to WoE for eazymode raid loots.The part that casuals tend to forget, or ignore because it is hard work is the different mentality needed to move into any sort of raid environment. We do this zone every week. We have the first 3 named on farm status... we continually work on Digg... it's just a matter of time, and after that, the next mob.. just a matter of time. We are full T2 outfitted with fabled epics.. some folks (2 on raid) have mythicals, 1 or 2 have a piece or 2 of x4 fabled.. so it is doable by T2 geard folks (progression wise we have just completed T1 RoK) with fabled epics, as long as they don't have the unrealistic expectation of walking in and clearing the zone the first time.. that's never going to happen, just like a hard core guild doesn't have the expectation of walking into new content (x4) and clearing it w/o issue and on the first attempt.To the smaller guilds, the casual guilds, the "don't have time" guilds, even to the alliances, I suggest you prep for this raid by ensuring everyone who wants to try this with you gets their fabled epics, gets all adept 3 or higher spells/CAs, works hard for AA - we set a 175 aa point requirement -, set up an AA night, and definately try to 2 or 3 group older content first to learn what to expect from raid encounters/situations (we used Tier 1 RoK zones, SoH, and older EoF content to do that).I can guarantee that if you prep for the adjustment from "used to raid" or "only groupped" to "we're trying to raid", and you hone your skills, you will trivialize the trash and the first few named. The rest of the named will come after that point from experience, upgrades, etc.. The biggest flaw I've seen in folk's expectations is the "i want it now" mentality rather than the reality of "earning it (the rewards) takes time and dedication".

Kreagan De'Unerro

04-28-2009, 05:48 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) Lose the guard, lose another healer, let the SK MT, bring 2 more dps. If your SK is less geared, bring the 4th healer and just drop the guard for dps.</blockquote>QFT <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Wish it wasn't true, I'm a guard afterall, but I'm teets on a bull in WoE.I'm generally there only cause I excell at the boulders for aiden, other than that I'm just half a real dps class.</blockquote>Maybe someday we will get to Aiden, then Ill have a 2nd reason to be in WoE. Currently my only purpose is to fetch totems for Digg <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>If you guards are having such issues running zones, maintaining agro and not having fun then I suggest you reroll a toon or (I hate using this phrase) L2P your guard.I been playing my guard for 4 years now and am always sought after when I log him on to tank stuff. When we do WoE I am 99% asked to MT even though the SK does 5x as much DPS as me. The SK does not want to tank much, he rather OT most of the time and work his DPS efficiently. This SK is no slouch either, he is prob in the top 5 WW easily.Guards have considerably more survivability. The SK and I are both equally equipped but I do not spike nearly as much as him on extremely tough fights like Pentaclypse, Gynok,Zarrakon,etc...Seriously stop playing the SK OP card and grow some. It is emabarrassing to other guards who actually work their butts off to make us a desireable tank.The only thing we as guards need is them to fix the hate amounts of our taunts to match the DPS of a SK. But we can get around that with a pocket dirge and specing for DPS.Ohh btw i also have a 80 myth SK with decent gear 75% mastered, and play him alot to farm. But I have a better time Tanking on my guard for instances and raids. The guard is challenging but more rewarding imho.

Yimway

04-28-2009, 06:20 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you guards are having such issues running zones, maintaining agro and not having fun then I suggest you reroll a toon or L2P your guard.I been playing my guard for 4 years now and am always sought after when I log him on to tank stuff. When we do WoE I am 99% asked to MT even though the SK does 5x as much DPS as me. The SK does not want to tank much, he rather OT most of the time and work his DPS efficiently. This SK is no slouch either, he is prob in the top 5 WW easily.Guards have considerably more survivability. The SK and I are both equally equipped but I do not spike nearly as much as him on extremely tough fights like Pentaclypse, Gynok,Zarrakon,etc...Ohh btw i also have a 80 myth SK with decent gear 75% mastered, and play him alot to farm. But I have a better time Tanking on my guard for instances and raids. The guard is challenging but more rewarding imho.</blockquote>You seriously don't need to tell me to L2P...There is crap all your guard can do to hold aggro on 20+ mobs. There is crap all your guard can do to hold aggro on 4 encounters simultaneously. I'm aware of every trick we have, and nothing is going to let you maintain aggro on this many mobs even against heal aggro for over about 30 seconds, much less sustained raid dps. However, to do so on an SK is trivial.Fact is, your SK can tank every single target mob in the zone AND tank all the AoE fights and your guardian is in fact just a 5th wheel or half a dps class in WoE. I'm sorry to pour some sobering reality in your direction, but this is fact.Yes, you'll tank Pentaclypse, Gynok, Zarrakon, etc better, but last i checked they aren't in WoE are they?I also have a myth'd SK, that doesn't change the fact that your guard does crap all for sustained aoe aggro, and that an SK is more than enough tank for the zone.I'm not playing the SK are OP card, I'm playing the SK's have undeniably better AoE aggro and more survivabilty than any other AoE tank card. Did anyone say an SK is more survivable than a guard? No. But what the hell good is guard survivability on say books or flame elmental where if he's the only tank in raid your just the last person standing on the wipe?An SK in T2 shard gear and myth can solo tank WoE with 3 healers standing behind him. No other class can do that. Period.

craiglitw

04-28-2009, 06:22 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>3) Aiden isn't impossible if you can clear the fire elemental. 2 people get ported, those 2 people have time to each bring 2 boulders up and block a total of 4 portals. This leaves 3 sets of 3 to kill in 30 seconds before aiden comes back. If you did 30k on fire elemental with a successful aoe tank, then you can kill these 9 mobs and win the fight.Success is far more based upon people learning the process of getting the boulders, getting 2 boulders every time, and getting back up to the top quickly. Success on aiden has little to do with gear or raid experience and everything about 2 random people from your raid being able to play the mario mini game effectively.</blockquote>As an aside that is interesting that you bring four boulders. Thought they fixed it so you can only bring one per person now. If you picked up a boulder to put in your inventory (as of tuesday night) it said it is too heavy, so you could only bring one. Hence we fought way more adds than usual. Was there a trick to getting two? If that is the case then this fight would be equivalent to the fire elemental for sure.

Yimway

04-28-2009, 06:25 PM

<cite>Mindeen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>3) Aiden isn't impossible if you can clear the fire elemental. 2 people get ported, those 2 people have time to each bring 2 boulders up and block a total of 4 portals. This leaves 3 sets of 3 to kill in 30 seconds before aiden comes back. If you did 30k on fire elemental with a successful aoe tank, then you can kill these 9 mobs and win the fight.Success is far more based upon people learning the process of getting the boulders, getting 2 boulders every time, and getting back up to the top quickly. Success on aiden has little to do with gear or raid experience and everything about 2 random people from your raid being able to play the mario mini game effectively.</blockquote>As an aside that is interesting that you bring four boulders. Thought they fixed it so you can only bring one per person now. If you picked up a boulder to put in your inventory (as of tuesday night) it said it is too heavy, so you could only bring one. Hence we fought way more adds than usual. Was there a trick to getting two? If that is the case then this fight would be equivalent to the fire elemental for sure.</blockquote>I've posted this elsewhere...You can only have one in your bag. Yes.1) Harvest one boulder2) Move to the next boulder3) Click use on boulder in bag, thus placing it on ground next to 2nd boulder4) Harvest second boulder5) click move on orriginal boulder that is already now a moveable object after using.You can now get to the top with one boulder in your bag and another boulder on your cursor.Step 6) Profit!

Kreagan De'Unerro

04-28-2009, 07:03 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not playing the SK are OP card, I'm playing the SK's have undeniably better AoE aggro and more survivabilty than any other AoE tank card. Did anyone say an SK is more survivable than a guard? No. But what the hell good is guard survivability on say books or flame elmental where if he's the only tank in raid your just the last person standing on the wipe?An SK in T2 shard gear and myth can solo tank WoE with 3 healers standing behind him. No other class can do that. Period.</blockquote>Dude you are ridiculous, I have solo tanked WoE with 3 healers. Every encounter dead. But then again I and the people I run with are probably/most likely extremely better geared then you. I do it DW in offensive stance, with choker, and JoA. All I need is a beast Templar or Defiler and a Warden in MT group.The zone takes roughly 1.5hrs to run for us. No sitting around and proxy pulling anything, all bow and decimate.And guards can hold 12+ different encounter mobs if you are specd right, have the right buffs and know what you are doing. And if you are losing to heal agro you shouldnt be playing a tank.For the last year or so all I see you doin on these forums is whine Atan about how under powered us guards are. If you are so butt hurt about your class reroll it and stop being a little wuss.

Yimway

04-28-2009, 07:50 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>And guards can hold 12+ different encounter mobs if you are specd right, have the right buffs and know what you are doing. And if you are losing to heal agro you shouldnt be playing a tank.</blockquote>Puhlease. The only way this is happening is if dps is asleep. There is no way your guard is building sufficient tanking aggro on 12+ encounters vs any significant aggro challenges. AoE spec, reinforcement + aoe chains, etc are all powerful for using hate position to influence and allow multi encounter aggro, but anything that starts to exceed 30-40s all this falls short.It is in fact, nothing in comparison to what a true AoE tank can build.And as I said, SK is the only tank that can single tank WoE in T2 gear. Now I meant for a raid of similarly geared players though I didn't think I needed to be that excplicit. Certainly anythings possible if your going to stack up 100k+ in WoE, as with anything, the scripts are nearly meaningless if you stack enough dps. But that doesn't particularly have much bearing given the players and issues discussed in this thread.Last run thru on mains 1h 40min, shrug.

Kreagan De'Unerro

04-28-2009, 08:17 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>And guards can hold 12+ different encounter mobs if you are specd right, have the right buffs and know what you are doing. And if you are losing to heal agro you shouldnt be playing a tank.</blockquote>Puhlease. The only way this is happening is if dps is asleep. There is no way your guard is building sufficient tanking aggro on 12+ encounters vs any significant aggro challenges. AoE spec, reinforcement + aoe chains, etc are all powerful for using hate position to influence and allow multi encounter aggro, but anything that starts to exceed 30-40s all this falls short.It is in fact, nothing in comparison to what a true AoE tank can build.</blockquote>If I am doin 8-10k DPS sure I can hold agro AoE well, the more mobs there are around me the more DPS I do. And outside of Grave Sacriment, I can hold AoE agro against SKs if need be. 20-30min trash zone pulls I can sustain 8k DPS, while the raid is doin 125-150k DPS.8-10k DPS +37% Dirge buff, + 5% hate buff off JoA, + Moderate on Warlock = no agro issues. This is for instance running, or even WoE(but usually warlock is in 2nd group with a Troub,Illy)Now when raiding my group is made up of: ME, Defiler,Templar, Dirge, Coercer and Swash. Plenty hate there also for AoE pulls.It all depends on how you play your toon, the gear you have(which means the better the gear the more you have to work for it),how much you know about your toons abilities and when to use them. I see some guilds where their guard is parsing 15-20k, overall raid parses hitting 450k.Just because you can not accomplish what I can does not make it fact that it can not be done. There are plenty guards that can do what I can and even moreso can probably pull even more mobs then me with their gear if they sportin avatar gear.I go into Befallen:CoA often and always take a warlock, mass pulling. I have an alt dirge on second account I use as my buffbot on autofollow, so there is one less DPS there on fights. Nobody dies and zone cleared in roughly 15-20mins. I love that zone, cause it is really good to pad your DPS stats as a guard on the AoE.

Meryddian

04-28-2009, 08:46 PM

For those who think this zone is impossible without being penultimate gear: I have been tanking this zone for the past few weeks. I'm an <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=535868101" target="_blank">80 SK in full T2 shard armor</a>, with mythical epic, 184+AA, and a mix of raid gear/shard gear/stuff out of TSO instances otherwise; with every piece of gear adorned, and all my spells either Ad3 or M1.The raid I usually go in with (not to be confused with my guild's usual raid here¹), consists of people who go from full top end raid gear down to people who are still working on their fabled epic. (I tank for a friend's guild's raids.) The first time we went in, we wiped just about every other mob and it took us a few pulls to kill even the first named. But now we can successfully kill the first two named, at least one of them on the first pull, and we have almost killed the water elemental. Obviously, however, we do better on the nights that we have people who are better geared, who know to bring potions, who know how to raid, etc. But the point is, it isn't impossible with people are PUG raids or who aren't perfectly geared.I like that it's a challenge. I don't get to be MT/OT on my guild raids, so it's great fun (from my viewpoint) to be tanking on these X2 instances. We had a similarly geared guardian tanking one night, and he was regularly going down around 70% on named mobs and I would just snap aggro and finish the named out; so there is probably as much to be said for the player behind the classes, as there is for the classes you have along.Now, granted, as we don't have everybody "perfectly" geared, we can see some big swings in performance, and so we try to choose carefully about which classes we bring along. But you CAN do at least the first two named in here without "perfect" gear/spells and without "perfect/ideal" X, Y, Z classes in the raid. It definitely requires player skill and paying attention and not watching TV while you ought to be healing the tank. And it will feel that much more awesome when we get down that water elemental, and when Digg, etc., fall to us as well - and it will eventually happen.¹ My guild does this raid also with core raiders, and has cleared most if not all the zone; our core raiders are all T2 shard/mythicals/etc.

Yimway

04-28-2009, 09:19 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I am doin 8-10k DPS sure I can hold agro AoE well, the more mobs there are around me the more DPS I do. And outside of Grave Sacriment, I can hold AoE agro against SKs if need be. 20-30min trash zone pulls I can sustain 8k DPS, while the raid is doin 125-150k DPS.It all depends on how you play your toon, the gear you have(which means the better the gear the more you have to work for it),how much you know about your toons abilities and when to use them. I see some guilds where their guard is parsing 15-20k, overall raid parses hitting 450k.Just because you can not accomplish what I can does not make it fact that it can not be done. There are plenty guards that can do what I can and even moreso can probably pull even more mobs then me with their gear if they sportin avatar gear.I go into Befallen:CoA often and always take a warlock, mass pulling. I have an alt dirge on second account I use as my buffbot on autofollow, so there is one less DPS there on fights. Nobody dies and zone cleared in roughly 15-20mins. I love that zone, cause it is really good to pad your DPS stats as a guard on the AoE.</blockquote>This all has little to do with holding AoE aggro for more than about 30-40s.Your numbers are within 10-20% of mine, nothing to brag about compaired to others I know, just as you said. I don't really need lessons on what we can parse. 8k on singles isn't difficult 10k on multiples also not out of my reach. But we have nothing in comparison to a true aoe tank class for sustained aoe hate generation.Heroic instance are not a problem, Befallen is no problem, I'll hold aggro off the warlock without the dirge, that really isn't the same thing as handling spawn adds in multiple encounters. I can easily single tank all of WoE with exception to the Fire Elemental, if I don't bring enough dps to burn it in under 3 mins, my guard fails to maintain aggro to the number of adds at that point. I'm not sure any guard is going to do much better after the 3 min marker on holding aggro on just how many things spawn in that matter of time. However, an SK can do it easy in T2 gear without anything of note. Thats all I said.A zerker in T2 gear can do it as well from experience, but he needs the 4th healer from my experience.

Xalmat

04-28-2009, 09:29 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>A zerker in T2 gear can do it as well from experience, but he needs the 4th healer from my experience.</blockquote>All depends on the skill of your healers. Three highly skilled healers is better than four horribly skilled healers. And proper use of Adrenaline helps as well.

Yimway

04-28-2009, 09:44 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>A zerker in T2 gear can do it as well from experience, but he needs the 4th healer from my experience.</blockquote>All depends on the skill of your healers. Three highly skilled healers is better than four horribly skilled healers. And proper use of Adrenaline helps as well.</blockquote>Agreed, but without the 4th, when adrenaline went down, so did the zerker. The number of cures needed in that particular fight makes 3 tough if the MT is spiking. I remember it fairly well, cause I had to log off coercer and load up the warden for the zerker to win. Better geared than T2, I'm sure the 4th healer wasn't needed.

Gisallo

04-29-2009, 12:35 AM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't tell me it can't be done cause I do it, been doing it for years. Always played with Warlocks for as long as I been playing and prefer a warlock over any other mage for my groups. Most people I play with say I play a guard like a zerker the way I pull and hold agro. Some tell me to betray to zerker, but I refuse to since I am almost fully mastered from 1-80.</blockquote>Yes but here are the issues you face, the real issues. Since TSO came out at least half of the "guardian's can't tank TSO" posts were by....Guardians. Occassionally you get a guardian that mentions having an "AE" spec etc, but they are usually ignored or shot down. When it comes down to it this perception is based on three things. First it is easier to tank AE encounters with tanks other than Guards. Guards do not have as many innate tools to do it. Guards don't suck, they are not incapable, some classes just have a much easier time at it than them. SK's right now are in a world by themselves though. There does come a point though where a guard can not hold the aggro. It happens to every class. You get to a point when there are too many mobs for the tools at hand and the Guard hits that wall before the other classes. Now I do not pretend to know where that limit is but there it is.

Thunndar316

04-29-2009, 12:40 AM

<cite>Kander wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timetraveling and I have no plans to make this zone any easier, we feel that the challenge vs reward is about right. If there is anything you feel that is a flat out bug and needs to be fixed, please feel free to PM either him or me and we'll look into it ASAP.In other news, we have another x2 coming soon, that will be a tad more... challenging.</blockquote> Made my subscription cancelation that much easier. I've seen the endgame and it's terrible. Have fun. No you cant have my stuff.

Noaani

04-29-2009, 02:11 AM

Ran

04-29-2009, 02:48 AM

Raiding means investing time to work together with other people and get rewarded for the effort.Raiding is hard as long as you don't know the strat.So OP gave up after 4 trashpulls.. this is not investing time and to learn a strat you have to invest time.This zone is for casual people which are interested in a harder, challenging zone than normal instances. For this, some people have to learn their class better, otherwise they will never see aiden. If you are not willing to learn you class then don't complain about difficulty of this zone. If you are rdy to learn everything about your class (you may ask in class channel etc. people are so helpful in EQ2 if you ask in a normal way), if you are rdy to invest time together with others then you will get rewarded for your effort.To kill easier mobs to get loot and to get a better chance on the harder mobs in this zone... this is progression which every raidforce has to run through. It's a raidzone so you have to play after those rules.. not about heroic content.

LordPazuzu

04-29-2009, 04:11 AM

Zone is just fine the way it is.To the OP- Have your guardian pull the 4 mobs into the corner with the rest of the raid around the corner. He'll get target locked onto a mob further down the pull. Have him body pull with tower of stone if need be, having the fighter AoE blocker helps. If you are the guardian, when the first mobs go to rush past you to beat down your healers, hit them with your blue AoE with Reinforcement up, then use the AoE root. Only the Darkmauls are epic. The other three are heroic. When target lock breaks, switch to the Darkmaul and ignore the other three until the Darkmaul is dead. If you have enough AoE dps, they'll be dead before the Darkmaul anyway. Use your hunker down if you're still taking a beating, or find better healers.

Mytilma

04-29-2009, 04:44 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've posted this elsewhere...You can only have one in your bag. Yes.1) Harvest one boulder2) Move to the next boulder3) Click use on boulder in bag, thus placing it on ground next to 2nd boulder4) Harvest second boulder5) click move on orriginal boulder that is already now a moveable object after using.You can now get to the top with one boulder in your bag and another boulder on your cursor.Step 6) Profit!</blockquote>Truth to be told, that sounds bit cheesy. I wouldn't be surprised if this would be fixed at some point. That said, you can perfectly do Aiden with less blocked gates.Overall I find the difficulty of WoE not too high. It's a nice zone for non raiding casual guilds bored with the heroic stuff to try a bit of raiding even if they can't field the numbers for a x4 zone. Just tone down your expectations and don't think you can clear it in the first try. Just take it as progression zone, use the easier mobs to gear up and learn strategies for the harder. Most raid zones work this way nowadays.Of course it is a raid zone fair and square and all rules of raiding apply. It's not like zone in, loot, zone out. Play your characters well and use every opportunity for improvement. Yes, cure potions, signets and even some deity buffs are must haves. Care about setup; in this light the description "should provide an exciting challenge to any group of 12" is misleading (not even heroic zones allow any group of 6). And don't give up so fast, stubbornness is a useful trait for a raider.Finally, a new, more challenging x2 zone soon coming is good news. Looking forward to it!

RafaelSmith

04-29-2009, 10:27 AM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) Lose the guard, lose another healer, let the SK MT, bring 2 more dps. If your SK is less geared, bring the 4th healer and just drop the guard for dps.</blockquote>QFT <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Wish it wasn't true, I'm a guard afterall, but I'm teets on a bull in WoE.I'm generally there only cause I excell at the boulders for aiden, other than that I'm just half a real dps class.</blockquote>Maybe someday we will get to Aiden, then Ill have a 2nd reason to be in WoE. Currently my only purpose is to fetch totems for Digg <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>If you guards are having such issues running zones, maintaining agro and not having fun then I suggest you reroll a toon or (I hate using this phrase) L2P your guard.I been playing my guard for 4 years now and am always sought after when I log him on to tank stuff. When we do WoE I am 99% asked to MT even though the SK does 5x as much DPS as me. The SK does not want to tank much, he rather OT most of the time and work his DPS efficiently. This SK is no slouch either, he is prob in the top 5 WW easily.Guards have considerably more survivability. The SK and I are both equally equipped but I do not spike nearly as much as him on extremely tough fights like Pentaclypse, Gynok,Zarrakon,etc...Seriously stop playing the SK OP card and grow some. It is emabarrassing to other guards who actually work their butts off to make us a desireable tank.The only thing we as guards need is them to fix the hate amounts of our taunts to match the DPS of a SK. But we can get around that with a pocket dirge and specing for DPS.Ohh btw i also have a 80 myth SK with decent gear 75% mastered, and play him alot to farm. But I have a better time Tanking on my guard for instances and raids. The guard is challenging but more rewarding imho.</blockquote>I have no doubt that you can do what you say you can do... But for you and your level of gear WoE is trivial.At my level....it is not trivial not in the slightest......so we struggle.....but we try to learn and get better.We are in two different worlds.......not a bad thing...I actually like knowing that things can get better with time and dedication. While you speak in terms of 5 digit individual DPS numbers.......I am dealing with 4 digit....sometimes 3. Guards at the top might be doing ok....but the rest of us have problems....sure some are because we do in fact need to L2p....but alot has to do with the game mechanics that are beyond our control.But this was not the purpose of this thread..........this thread was claiming that WoE is too hard. Its not....even with the issues I may have....I find WoE to be just right.

Yimway

04-29-2009, 11:37 AM

<cite>Jhandiira@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've posted this elsewhere...You can only have one in your bag. Yes.1) Harvest one boulder2) Move to the next boulder3) Click use on boulder in bag, thus placing it on ground next to 2nd boulder4) Harvest second boulder5) click move on orriginal boulder that is already now a moveable object after using.You can now get to the top with one boulder in your bag and another boulder on your cursor.Step 6) Profit!</blockquote>Truth to be told, that sounds bit cheesy. I wouldn't be surprised if this would be fixed at some point. That said, you can perfectly do Aiden with less blocked gates.Overall I find the difficulty of WoE not too high. It's a nice zone for non raiding casual guilds bored with the heroic stuff to try a bit of raiding even if they can't field the numbers for a x4 zone. Just tone down your expectations and don't think you can clear it in the first try. Just take it as progression zone, use the easier mobs to gear up and learn strategies for the harder. Most raid zones work this way nowadays.</blockquote>Yeah, dunno if its cheese or not, that is I dunno if the devs considered the issue or not. But changing it would probably effect the ability to move some things in houses and that would ruffle some feathers. It does make the jumping a bit harder with a giant rock stuck to your cursor, but its not impossible.Being able to have 2 people block 4 portals does make this fight only marginally harder than the fire elemental imo. But, in my experience, those 2 people being able to do that is a more rare commodity than I would have originally guessed.

EQPrime

04-29-2009, 12:34 PM

Kyrsten

04-29-2009, 02:24 PM

Noob1974

04-29-2009, 02:43 PM

RafaelSmith

04-29-2009, 02:59 PM

LygerT

04-29-2009, 03:59 PM

<cite>Uguv@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kander wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timetraveling and I have no plans to make this zone any easier, we feel that the challenge vs reward is about right. If there is anything you feel that is a flat out bug and needs to be fixed, please feel free to PM either him or me and we'll look into it ASAP.In other news, we have another x2 coming soon, that will be a tad more... challenging.</blockquote>Made my subscription cancelation that much easier. I've seen the endgame and it's terrible. Have fun.No you cant have my stuff.</blockquote>You've been in WoE and you've seen the endgame?Don't let the door hit you on the way out.</blockquote>i saw Aiden, i can now quit the game!

Xalmat

04-29-2009, 04:09 PM

If you think WoE is too hard, you haven't seen much raid content then. Some fights in RoK are much harder (Druushk, Nexona, Trakanon, Byzola, Venril Sathir all come to mind).

feldon30

04-29-2009, 04:27 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Non raiding assassins are ablt to parse 8k without issue.</blockquote>I LOLed.</blockquote>This is only true in stacked groups imo.Solo vs dummies, I can only muster 6.5k on a non-raid geared assasin.With a dirge + illy + shaman, yeah 8k would be cake. Probably could get higher.</blockquote>Exactly. + Dirge + Illy you are talking 7-8k. With Mythical and right groups, then what? 12-14k?But folks who say 8k off-the-bat make me LOL. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Beghauns

04-29-2009, 04:34 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you think WoE is too hard, you haven't seen much raid content then. Some fights in RoK are much harder (Druushk, Nexona, Trakanon, Byzola, Venril Sathir all come to mind).</blockquote>Not sure you can compare those since they're x4 more to work with, I've killed all of those several times along with the first 3 in palace, first 3 in tomc, and first 2 in the other x4 zone but yet to complete the x2.

LygerT

04-29-2009, 04:57 PM

<cite>Beghauns wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you think WoE is too hard, you haven't seen much raid content then. Some fights in RoK are much harder (Druushk, Nexona, Trakanon, Byzola, Venril Sathir all come to mind).</blockquote>Not sure you can compare those since they're x4 more to work with, I've killed all of those several times along with the first 3 in palace, first 3 in tomc, and first 2 in the other x4 zone but yet to complete the x2.</blockquote>how many trips through those zones did it take you to kill each named? you're still also only half way through them. truth is, WoE like any real raid zone, is not meant to be stomped through on the first trip.

Gisallo

04-29-2009, 07:16 PM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Made my subscription cancelation that much easier. I've seen the endgame and it's terrible. Have fun.No you cant have my stuff.</blockquote>This coming from the guy that knows so much about dps, tanks, aggro and raiding that he called out on the WW best (if not the best) Paladins? LoL.

Gisallo

04-29-2009, 07:21 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Beghauns wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you think WoE is too hard, you haven't seen much raid content then. Some fights in RoK are much harder (Druushk, Nexona, Trakanon, Byzola, Venril Sathir all come to mind).</blockquote>Not sure you can compare those since they're x4 more to work with, I've killed all of those several times along with the first 3 in palace, first 3 in tomc, and first 2 in the other x4 zone but yet to complete the x2.</blockquote>how many trips through those zones did it take you to kill each named? you're still also only half way through them. truth is, WoE like any real raid zone, is not meant to be stomped through on the first trip.</blockquote>Exactly. Peole saw "x2" and "without a lot of raid gear" and figured "hey these are the city raids...go in kill stuff, get loot, hey we are raiders. NOPE. The zone is far easier than VP or even 1/3 of SoH BUT it is still a post RoK raid zone and with the loot it drops it should be that way. If people thought they could just slam two groups together that can clear Scion of Ice and clear the x2 and get that kind of loot, you were sorely mistaken.

feldon30

04-29-2009, 07:23 PM

Allurana, I will just say this thread COULD have been the typical lynch mob, but you got a LOT of useful advice here. Hopefully you and your raid take it to heart, shift things around a bit, tweak some play habits, and get those first 3 names. I know I may seem masochistic, but to me the fun of a raid zone is that you die repeatedly trying different things and then you find the right combination to just stay standing for a while, and then you find what you need to do to succeed. Every new encounter will put some dread in you, some question that you'll be able to make it. But then you shift things around, try different ideas, and you get past it.

Beghauns

04-29-2009, 09:15 PM

<cite>Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Beghauns wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you think WoE is too hard, you haven't seen much raid content then. Some fights in RoK are much harder (Druushk, Nexona, Trakanon, Byzola, Venril Sathir all come to mind).</blockquote>Not sure you can compare those since they're x4 more to work with, I've killed all of those several times along with the first 3 in palace, first 3 in tomc, and first 2 in the other x4 zone but yet to complete the x2.</blockquote>how many trips through those zones did it take you to kill each named? you're still also only half way through them. truth is, WoE like any real raid zone, is not meant to be stomped through on the first trip.</blockquote>Exactly. Peole saw "x2" and "without a lot of raid gear" and figured "hey these are the city raids...go in kill stuff, get loot, hey we are raiders. NOPE. The zone is far easier than VP or even 1/3 of SoH BUT it is still a post RoK raid zone and with the loot it drops it should be that way. If people thought they could just slam two groups together that can clear Scion of Ice and clear the x2 and get that kind of loot, you were sorely mistaken. </blockquote>Some did yea but then the zone is an "Entry" raid only requireing t2 shard gear and a fabled epic. which is not what we have which is all mythicals and x4 fabled. Being over qualifed for a zone you would think it should be a breeze.

Kreagan De'Unerro

04-30-2009, 12:32 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) Lose the guard, lose another healer, let the SK MT, bring 2 more dps. If your SK is less geared, bring the 4th healer and just drop the guard for dps.</blockquote>QFT <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Wish it wasn't true, I'm a guard afterall, but I'm teets on a bull in WoE.I'm generally there only cause I excell at the boulders for aiden, other than that I'm just half a real dps class.</blockquote>Maybe someday we will get to Aiden, then Ill have a 2nd reason to be in WoE. Currently my only purpose is to fetch totems for Digg <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>If you guards are having such issues running zones, maintaining agro and not having fun then I suggest you reroll a toon or (I hate using this phrase) L2P your guard.I been playing my guard for 4 years now and am always sought after when I log him on to tank stuff. When we do WoE I am 99% asked to MT even though the SK does 5x as much DPS as me. The SK does not want to tank much, he rather OT most of the time and work his DPS efficiently. This SK is no slouch either, he is prob in the top 5 WW easily.Guards have considerably more survivability. The SK and I are both equally equipped but I do not spike nearly as much as him on extremely tough fights like Pentaclypse, Gynok,Zarrakon,etc...Seriously stop playing the SK OP card and grow some. It is emabarrassing to other guards who actually work their butts off to make us a desireable tank.The only thing we as guards need is them to fix the hate amounts of our taunts to match the DPS of a SK. But we can get around that with a pocket dirge and specing for DPS.Ohh btw i also have a 80 myth SK with decent gear 75% mastered, and play him alot to farm. But I have a better time Tanking on my guard for instances and raids. The guard is challenging but more rewarding imho.</blockquote>I have no doubt that you can do what you say you can do... But for you and your level of gear WoE is trivial.At my level....it is not trivial not in the slightest......so we struggle.....but we try to learn and get better.We are in two different worlds.......not a bad thing...I actually like knowing that things can get better with time and dedication. While you speak in terms of 5 digit individual DPS numbers.......I am dealing with 4 digit....sometimes 3. Guards at the top might be doing ok....but the rest of us have problems....sure some are because we do in fact need to L2p....but alot has to do with the game mechanics that are beyond our control.But this was not the purpose of this thread..........this thread was claiming that WoE is too hard. Its not....even with the issues I may have....I find WoE to be just right.</blockquote>This is what I am saying. Atan says lose the guard, guards suck, he is a guard and complains he cant do certain things. I tell him I have no problem and give him some numbers then he flip flops and says his numbers are same as mine, says yes a guard can now solo tank WoE cept the fire elemental.First he says I am full of crap then says ok maybe.I understand some people put alot more time into progrressing their toon. I am not an elitest at all. I just want people who are playing guards not to get the wrong impression from other guards crying the sky is falling. The sky is not falling, we can tank anything a zerker or SK can, just we have to work a little harder to make it happen.

Kizee

04-30-2009, 07:09 AM

<cite>Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Made my subscription cancelation that much easier. I've seen the endgame and it's terrible. Have fun.No you cant have my stuff.</blockquote>This coming from the guy that knows so much about dps, tanks, aggro and raiding that he called out on the WW best (if not the best) Paladins? LoL.</blockquote>And pretty sure he made a post complaining about so much intel on rogue gear since it was useless for a rogue. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />

Noaani

04-30-2009, 09:13 AM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Exactly. + Dirge + Illy you are talking 7-8k. With Mythical and right groups, then what? 12-14k?But folks who say 8k off-the-bat make me LOL. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>A non raid assassin should be able to parse 8k without buffs, but with the debuffs that a x2 raid would be expected to bring.6.5 - 7k DPS on a dummy sounds about right, and should translate to 8 - 9k in a real situation with some good debuffs, 11 - 12k with a semi decient group (as would be expected in a x2 raid), or 13 - 14k in a very stacked group as would be expected in a x4 raid.

Noaani

04-30-2009, 09:15 AM

<cite>Beghauns wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some did yea but then the zone is an "Entry" raid only requireing t2 shard gear and a fabled epic. which is not what we have which is all mythicals and x4 fabled. Being over qualifed for a zone you would think it should be a breeze.</blockquote>It is a breeze with the gear you have.What exactly are you having issues with?

SpineDoc

04-30-2009, 09:46 AM

Part of the issue is actually getting 2 groups together to go in there. If you are not in a raiding guild you are out of luck, and that's figuring your guild has any interest in WOE, which my raiding guild does not. You might have enough in your non raiding guild to do it, but you might not, and then you better hope those non raiders are cohesive enough to handle the scripts.Beyond that you have the daunting task of putting together 2 groups inside of the mostly dead servers. On Mistmoore in the past couple of weeks I've only seen one or 2 WOE groups advertising for more.It's a deeper problem than WOE. I agree that with the level of drops in WOE the difficulty is pretty fair. But with the low population it's pretty hard to even get in there, much less have any chance of beating it unless your raiding guild wants to take it's focus off of raids to go there. I don't purport to have a solution, I don't, but it's food for thought.

Beghauns

04-30-2009, 10:18 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Beghauns wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some did yea but then the zone is an "Entry" raid only requireing t2 shard gear and a fabled epic. which is not what we have which is all mythicals and x4 fabled. Being over qualifed for a zone you would think it should be a breeze.</blockquote>It is a breeze with the gear you have.What exactly are you having issues with?</blockquote>Last guy and book room will prob get him next time we set time asside to do it. First run our zerker got the book room second time he couldn't hold all the mobs. Last guy we'd end up getting 4-5 encounters of mobs when the adds came from portals which would wipe us. Fire guy is kinda intresting without an off tank we just used high dpsers to burn them without me switching off from named.

Chookadook

04-30-2009, 10:53 AM

<cite>Mindeen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well this is my response from a 100% mastered, TSO fabled, mythical guardian that ran this zone a couple times that won't give you a L2P answer.-- Text removed to keep it shorter --</blockquote>This is the most accurate summation of this zone ever, you did a heck of a job on that Mindeen.Good on you!

Finora

04-30-2009, 10:54 AM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>We left in complete and utter disgust after that.This raid is TOO HARD. Last night was the FIRST TIME since I started playing EQ2 on Nov. 9, 2004 with my main character Allurana which is still my main character that I had considered cancelling all FOUR of my paid subscriptions and never coming back.I lived through LU13 and actually liked it, name all the guardians changes over the years and actually liked them all EXCEPT the massive nerf we took with TSO expansion came out and the promise we would be fixed with a fighter revamp 2.0 "soon" - it has been half a year already - give me back my dps if you won't make my taunts work and then you design C R A P content like this that you label to be usable by people EXACTLY geared and playstyle like me.We do not have our mythicals, we do not raid every other night and have a well oiled and polished raid force with ever min/maxed spell/potion/charm/etc...Please either adjust this current content OR be honest and realistic as to the audience and the players that you ACTUALLY designed it for which is obviously the high end mythical raiders that "needed" a smaller raid zone to occupy them when they only have 12 folks available.</blockquote>I think the WOE is set up pretty well. Our guild, which is NOT a raid guild by a very long shot and hasn't even done weekly raids as a guild since KOS I believe. Some folks occassionally raid with other guilds and with the server alliance but we are far from skilled regular raiders as a guild. There are some of us who don't even have t2 shard armor yet (me and my husband, who is the offtank usually btw and I am usually the offtank healer in this particular raid).Now our MT is fantastically equipped but he has worked very hard to do so and made friends with other guilds to get his mythical since it was something we just could not do. We do have a warden who is also well equipped from attending the raid alliance (but he can't always attend) and a well equipped templar who also can't always attend. And even so we still do well enough to have put in a very good effort into killing Digg and squashing the previous 3 named. It's taken us a few tries to get that far but we get better everytime we go. The first time we wiped on the first few pulls. After a few pulls we started to get the hang of what needed to happen. I still think I ended up dying 19 times, and that's even with a few deaths saved by FD. That stupid roamer, he can surprise any raid force, he's hard to see sometimes. It's not a super easy zone to waltz into and scoop up the loots. There is a progression inside the zone and from what I understand it's a fairly big zone so lots of room for a mini raid to learn.

Noaani

04-30-2009, 11:06 AM

<cite>Beghauns wrote:</cite><blockquote>Last guy and book room will prob get him next time we set time asside to do it. First run our zerker got the book room second time he couldn't hold all the mobs. Last guy we'd end up getting 4-5 encounters of mobs when the adds came from portals which would wipe us. Fire guy is kinda intresting without an off tank we just used high dpsers to burn them without me switching off from named. </blockquote>I think your issues are that you went in with the wrong idea for the mobs. You were over estimating what is needed to kill some, under estimating other. On the fire name, for an example, you just ignore the adds until after the main is dead, whereas the books need masses of AE hate and DPS.On Aiden, with the gear I would expect you to have, you can totally ignore the portals if you have someone that can hold AE aggro.Probably the biggest thing with this zone is the fact that some fights need decient single target aggro, while others need overly high AE aggro.

Yimway

04-30-2009, 11:31 AM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is what I am saying. Atan says lose the guard, guards suck, he is a guard and complains he cant do certain things. I tell him I have no problem and give him some numbers then he flip flops and says his numbers are same as mine, says yes a guard can now solo tank WoE cept the fire elemental.First he says I am full of crap then says ok maybe..</blockquote>I said... There is no reason to bring a guard and an SK to the zone. In a raid make-up you proposed, I said lose the guard and bring another t1 dps class. I didn't say the guard sucks, I said they lack the sustained aoe aggro to be effective on all encounters in WoE. You took my 'drop the guard and just bring the SK' to mean guards suck.I said the SK is better equiped to single tank the zone. I didn't say a guard could not do it, but for a guard to be able to do every encounter in WoE is going to require not only a very well played and geared guard, but a rock solid raid force behind him pumping out enough dps that said raid would never be posting in threads regarding WoE being difficult. By example, I doubt you could single tank it with no coercer or swash in mt group with an AoE stacked caster dps group. If you don't build that x2 to the guards strengths it has little chance at completing the zone. However the SK could single tank for any raid makup with no hate transfer or hate buff, with a raid force doing 30k parses and still win the zone. Again, I'm not saying guards suck, I'm just saying the difficulty bar is set *much* lower for AoE tanks in WoE.I'm fairly sure I could single tank WoE on my guard as well if I brought fully stacked 2 groups. I know the only encounter that concerns me is the fire elemental, all others I'm sure I could handle trivially. However, I don't even want to post that knowing that others will think thats a good idea to try, cause honestly 90% or more of the guards reading these forums will either lack the gear, skill, or sufficient raid build to accomplish it.Our [Removed for Content] contest on the matter though, isn't really contributing to the OP, or any of the many other players finding challenge in WoE.

RafaelSmith

04-30-2009, 11:42 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is what I am saying. Atan says lose the guard, guards suck, he is a guard and complains he cant do certain things. I tell him I have no problem and give him some numbers then he flip flops and says his numbers are same as mine, says yes a guard can now solo tank WoE cept the fire elemental.First he says I am full of crap then says ok maybe..</blockquote>I said... There is no reason to bring a guard and an SK to the zone. In a raid make-up you proposed, I said lose the guard and bring another t1 dps class. I didn't say the guard sucks, I said they lack the sustained aoe aggro to be effective on all encounters in WoE. You took my 'drop the guard and just bring the SK' to mean guards suck.I said the SK is better equiped to single tank the zone. I didn't say a guard could not do it, but for a guard to be able to do every encounter in WoE is going to require not only a very well played and geared guard, but a rock solid raid force behind him pumping out enough dps that said raid would never be posting in threads regarding WoE being difficult. By example, I doubt you could single tank it with no coercer or swash in mt group with an AoE stacked caster dps group. If you don't build that x2 to the guards strengths it has little chance at completing the zone. However the SK could single tank for any raid makup with no hate transfer or hate buff, with a raid force doing 30k parses and still win the zone. Again, I'm not saying guards suck, I'm just saying the difficulty bar is set *much* lower for AoE tanks in WoE.I'm fairly sure I could single tank WoE on my guard as well if I brought fully stacked 2 groups. I know the only encounter that concerns me is the fire elemental, all others I'm sure I could handle trivially. However, I don't even want to post that knowing that others will think thats a good idea to try, cause honestly 90% or more of the guards reading these forums will either lack the gear, skill, or sufficient raid build to accomplish it.Our [Removed for Content] contest on the matter though, isn't really contributing to the OP, or any of the many other players finding challenge in WoE.</blockquote>I think what alot of people don't realize is the guilds that WoE is intended for do not always have the luxury of always having 'needed' classes.Which is why for us......using an SK is optimal....we can afford to build less optimized groups using the people that we have available. For me as Guard to tank WoE would require certain classes that frankly we do not have. There is alot more wiggle room when you have an SK because the SK requires alot less of other classes to be able to do his job. We dont have a Swashy, we don't have Defiler, Brigand? whats that?, etc.......I know there are guilds out there that do not raid without those classes. But we have to make due with what we have...SK as MT allows that.

Mytilma

04-30-2009, 12:35 PM

<cite>Finora@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the WOE is set up pretty well. Our guild, which is NOT a raid guild by a very long shot and hasn't even done weekly raids as a guild since KOS I believe. Some folks occassionally raid with other guilds and with the server alliance but we are far from skilled regular raiders as a guild. There are some of us who don't even have t2 shard armor yet (me and my husband, who is the offtank usually btw and I am usually the offtank healer in this particular raid).Now our MT is fantastically equipped but he has worked very hard to do so and made friends with other guilds to get his mythical since it was something we just could not do. We do have a warden who is also well equipped from attending the raid alliance (but he can't always attend) and a well equipped templar who also can't always attend. And even so we still do well enough to have put in a very good effort into killing Digg and squashing the previous 3 named. It's taken us a few tries to get that far but we get better everytime we go. The first time we wiped on the first few pulls. After a few pulls we started to get the hang of what needed to happen. I still think I ended up dying 19 times, and that's even with a few deaths saved by FD. That stupid roamer, he can surprise any raid force, he's hard to see sometimes. It's not a super easy zone to waltz into and scoop up the loots. There is a progression inside the zone and from what I understand it's a fairly big zone so lots of room for a mini raid to learn.</blockquote>That's the right spirit, I salute you, good lady! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Troubor

04-30-2009, 12:57 PM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kander wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timetraveling and I have no plans to make this zone any easier, we feel that the challenge vs reward is about right. If there is anything you feel that is a flat out bug and needs to be fixed, please feel free to PM either him or me and we'll look into it ASAP.In other news, we have another x2 coming soon, that will be a tad more... challenging.</blockquote>Made my subscription cancelation that much easier. I've seen the endgame and it's terrible. Have fun.No you cant have my stuff.</blockquote>If you're this frustrated by WoE, then to be honest I suspect I don't want your stuff. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyway, many others have said my thoughts on this zone. Like any raid zone, it has progression. Yes, the WALK IN requirments are T2 shard armor or equivelent level of gear, plus all adept III's. But the assumption is that people will clear the first nameds, get some loot, come back if their gear is at T2 shard gear + adept III's. One is to slowly gear up, maybe just from here, maybe from both here and doing the first couple nameds in x4 raid zones also until one has a bit better gear. Also, for those that don't raid it does teach proper coordination within a raid, for lack of a better term. How to work as a raid force basically. Maybe think of WoE as a test to see if you'd like endgame raiding. If you do dislike it then you do know that there's other aspects of the endgame (such as grouping, I wonder if the guy I quoted knows that the endgame quest for TSO is ALL group zones...oh well, he already decided to /quit...) to investigate instead. If not, then it gives one some sliver of raid experience without having to join a raid guild or alliance, and lets one decide if they wish to join a raid guild, do they wish to see if they can get their guild into a raid alliance, or something else dealing with raiding.Okay, done rambling for now. Oh, back to the guy I quoted..someone did suggest "Free Realms". I think Hello Kitty Online might be out of beta test too.

thial

04-30-2009, 02:23 PM

Did the zone for the fisrt time last night, not a bad zone. (got two pieces bp and pants woot) I wouldn't ask for anything to be toned down. You have to relize this is a raid zone and not a heroic instance and with raid zones comes death after death, if the first time you go in there you can only kill one name and one person gets some loot than its a win. You come back in kill the one name u can, get the loot and rinse and repeat untill everyone has the gear needed to PROGRESS in the zone. I didn't have any issue with the trash I did how ever have an SK and Zerk backing me up with the ae agro. Make sure your groups are giving you room to pull the mobs and make sure you don't waist your AE till all the mobs are in range maybe try waiting for the few romers to pass, learn the pathing and timing of the romers. Make sure your templar is using sanc on as many pulls as posible, also if you find your healers getting agro on pull and dieng use sentry and maybe sentinal just have ToS ready incase you take to much damage. Make sure you have a cleric/shammy prefurable a defiler templar in the MT group. I saw some talk about having to use potions and what not, for most of the raid mobs in TsO its very very important to use cure pots to cure yourself so why would a x2 be any different? The tools are there for a reason use tham.

Gisallo

04-30-2009, 03:22 PM

<cite>Beghauns wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some did yea but then the zone is an "Entry" raid only requireing t2 shard gear and a fabled epic. which is not what we have which is all mythicals and x4 fabled. Being over qualifed for a zone you would think it should be a breeze.</blockquote>With that kind of gear (and the assumed knowledge and experience that comes with it) once you get the strats and group make ups down for the mobs it should be pretty easy. If its not I can only assume that perhaps, just perhaps, you guys over estimated yourselves based on your gear and took things for granted. Trust me we did that ourselves for a little bit on Digg. Went in and figured "look at us, what we killed, we can bum rush dig forget about the script." NOT. It took a couple of tries to get the turns down right on him but once we did getting to Aiden is not that difficult at all. The scripts in this zone are definitely designed to make them hard to bumm rush. What this does though is make it so its skill and discipline, more than gear that makes the difference and I like that myself.

Golbezz

04-30-2009, 06:08 PM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Made my subscription cancelation that much easier. I've seen the endgame and it's terrible. Have fun.No you cant have my stuff.</blockquote>Are you basing your opinion of endgame on your trip into VP to buy your mythical? If you think WoE is too hard I find it tough to believe that you didn't buy your mythical.

Meryddian

04-30-2009, 09:09 PM

<cite>SpineDoc wrote:</cite><blockquote>Part of the issue is actually getting 2 groups together to go in there. If you are not in a raiding guild you are out of luck, and that's figuring your guild has any interest in WOE, which my raiding guild does not. You might have enough in your non raiding guild to do it, but you might not, and then you better hope those non raiders are cohesive enough to handle the scripts.Beyond that you have the daunting task of putting together 2 groups inside of the mostly dead servers. On Mistmoore in the past couple of weeks I've only seen one or 2 WOE groups advertising for more.It's a deeper problem than WOE. I agree that with the level of drops in WOE the difficulty is pretty fair. But with the low population it's pretty hard to even get in there, much less have any chance of beating it unless your raiding guild wants to take it's focus off of raids to go there. I don't purport to have a solution, I don't, but it's food for thought.</blockquote>Well, I'm on Guk, which has a pretty decent population, and we have a couple folks on our server who are known for putting together PUG raids. Granted, they're not clearing VP or the very top-end raid content, but they're handling various Kunark stuff, getting people mythicals, etc. Raids are a two-part relationship: you need people who listen, pay attention, and who know how to play their classes; but you also need leadership.If you're a player who frequently ends up leading (and by leading I mean 'takes charge', isn't just wearing the leader tag) groups, then why not try putting together a raid night where more casual players can attend? Advertise it on your server boards, or in chats, and start with content you know. (There's a surprising number of players out there still willing to hit high 70s content, if for nothing else than the chance at free masters).The ideal place to be for a PUG raid on WoE is to have a set of regulars of course, but baring that, if you can at least find people who know how to play their class, it's doable. I do WoE runs with a bunch of folks who are half regulars, half PUG, and we are now having almost no problems with the first three named in WoE. (We're learning Digg now.)Raid guilds don't have to take focus off their regular raids, unless they're raiding 7x/week, and there's probably very few guilds in game who do that - most tend towards 3-5x/wk, I'd think. I know in my guild, we have our 3 regular raid nights a week, and the WoE raid is optional. (It's actually helpful to players, as some folks who might not get on the regular nightly raids are able to get in on WoE nights.)I'd be willing to bet with a little advertising/word of mouth, you could designate a night and pull together a force to give WoE a go. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Xendo

05-02-2009, 06:56 PM

The difficulty is right for the loot it drops don't let the x2 label fool ya. Its still a cakewalk compared to x4 zones and scripts even the ones from some of the 1 group zones have a learning curve. Trust me on this you can search the leaderboards for most deaths for your server and they'll likely all gonna be long time raiders. I can agree its prolly not the best zone for an indroduction to raiding out there (perhaps indroduction to TSO raiding). Still there are some aspects of the zone that bother me (like needing a slowfall ability/item to gather boulders effectively against Aiden)It's meant to be a challenge just like nearly every x4 raid zone. I would prolly recommend as well since t2 armors lack forearms is to work the first x4 named in Tomb of the Mad Crusader. Just gotta warn ya about the sparkly line(may need to turn the graphics up can turn it back down once ya know where it is). You gotta kill the entry guy to disable it and you'll need to pull it and position yourself so you don't get knockedback across it. Dog or hammer pull all the trash ya can and pull the first named. He isn't all that much different from the trash (you can use the same tank spot the whole time). He's a really easy x4 it'll be easier than the x2 zone I can assure you and you'll get some really nice upgrades in the process. That's pretty much the standard raid progression starter for TSO. The 2nd named in tombs starts throwing in some crazy memwipes (which is an indroduction to how trash in inner stronghold behave. Pretty much anything else in TSO x4 has ever more complex scripts and tasks. Combining into ever more complicated patterns of cure this, click that, move here, kill this now.But in all seriousness if you want to run WoE which is an introduction to the raiding world don't be afraid to roll the some of the true x4s as well. Even the trash in TSO x4s can drop stuff that would be nice to have. A t2 equipped raid should have little trouble with Tomb of the Mad crusader up to the first named and the trash in Palace of the ancients then work up to Tomb's 2nd name and Inner Stronghold trash (beware the stalker though). Any further than that though then I'm gonna have to call ya a raider.

Noaani

05-03-2009, 06:35 AM

<cite>Xendo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still there are some aspects of the zone that bother me (like needing a slowfall ability/item to gather boulders effectively against Aiden)</blockquote>Players that get ported get a slowfall buff on them automatically.

bryldan

05-03-2009, 12:00 PM

This is not a overly hard zone it seems my only HUGE problem with this zone is the very long lockout timer. Most raid zones the lockout is only 3 days to be able to reset it this one is what 7 days? Considering you have to clear this zone for access to the raid zone makes this task a lil frustrating.

Yimway

05-04-2009, 12:51 PM

After dealing with recruits / spouses in there in 2 runs again last night, increase the model size of the tornado's x4. Then the zone is where it should be.

SpineDoc

05-04-2009, 01:39 PM

Haven't done this zone in quite a while as it's rare to find a group looking for more for WOE on my server. But before our VP raid a couple of groups from my guild went in there and we blew through it pretty quickly. These are groups that are used to raiding and are pretty cohesive with scripts. Interestingly enough right after WOE we did our regularly scheduled VP run, we were on the last 3 or 4 named. We blew thru them so fast that we had an extra hour left to kill the first 2 named in the Palace raid zone. I only bring that up because it seems clearing VP was a bit easier than clearing WOE, but maybe we are just used to VP by now and don't do WOE that often.What kills me though is after playing all day like that I actually got zero drops, one Templar item dropped in WOE which I lost the roll on (I just don't understand shared patterns), and the stuff that drops in VP IMO kind of sucks for plate healers. So I walked away with .000014 of AA xp maybe, and nothing else, sigh.

Yimway

05-04-2009, 01:57 PM

<cite>SpineDoc wrote:</cite><blockquote>What kills me though is after playing all day like that I actually got zero drops, one Templar item dropped in WOE which I lost the roll on (I just don't understand shared patterns), and the stuff that drops in VP IMO kind of sucks for plate healers. So I walked away with .000014 of AA xp maybe, and nothing else, sigh.</blockquote>You got a couple shards and some plat!

RafaelSmith

05-04-2009, 02:38 PM

Well this weekend we did WOE again. Went in planning to just do the first 3 that we are able to do. But this time we decided to take a stab at the one in the library with all the books. Wiped once but we finally were able to take down that named. The fight was surprisingly easier than we had thought or been warned about. Then we took a few stabs at the fire elemental. We definately have the strat down but we just do not have the DPS or the extra healing required. So for us thats now 4 WOE named we can farm <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I am more convinced now than ever that WOE is perfect for a guild like ours.

Apos

05-04-2009, 03:18 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>A zerker in T2 gear can do it as well from experience, but he needs the 4th healer from my experience.</blockquote>All depends on the skill of your healers. Three highly skilled healers is better than four horribly skilled healers. And proper use of Adrenaline helps as well.</blockquote>Well, the healers' gear matters too. I solo healed a guardian in t2 shard armor for the zone (before aiden was toned down) with a shaman in the other group. Wasn't that bad, but I'm pretty well set and so was the other shaman. I am pretty sure I could have solo healed the zone entirely with no healer in second group but kinda dangerous with Aiden's curse and likelihood of me getting banished so no reason to risk it outside of bragging rights (which admittedly I'll probably try to do for fun).

Valdaglerion

05-05-2009, 04:08 PM

My personal perception of WoE is that it was originally cast as an upcoming x2 raid zone for the casual raider.This is not the case at all. With the new upcoming zone from Kander now being pitched as a x2 that is more challenging than WoE, I think you will see even fewer people playing that zone.I saw a posting about the devs watching the success and failure of people through this zone but the question is - are you also watching the number of people not playing the zone at all that are of appropriate level?There is nothing wrong with new raid zones but it seems they are being tuned to a point of creating nothing more than a timesink for high end raiders so they can sell loot rights and waste time until another expansion arrives. Having it marketed as a casual raiding zone I think gave many guilds a wrong impression of the content. Much like TSO being marketed as a 50-80 content expansion when it was really 75-80 for 99% of the content.Just a thought.

RafaelSmith

05-05-2009, 05:15 PM

<cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>My personal perception of WoE is that it was originally cast as an upcoming x2 raid zone for the casual raider.This is not the case at all. With the new upcoming zone from Kander now being pitched as a x2 that is more challenging than WoE, I think you will see even fewer people playing that zone.I saw a posting about the devs watching the success and failure of people through this zone but the question is - are you also watching the number of people not playing the zone at all that are of appropriate level?There is nothing wrong with new raid zones but it seems they are being tuned to a point of creating nothing more than a timesink for high end raiders so they can sell loot rights and waste time until another expansion arrives. Having it marketed as a casual raiding zone I think gave many guilds a wrong impression of the content. Much like TSO being marketed as a 50-80 content expansion when it was really 75-80 for 99% of the content.Just a thought.</blockquote>To be fair they never used the term "Casual" when describing WOE.........what they did say was......."This zone is balanced for players without a proliferation of raid gear". Which is exactly what was delivered.It was the players that created false expectations and somehow expected a Deep Forge for 12 instead of a actual raid zone.

EQPrime

05-05-2009, 05:30 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well this weekend we did WOE again. Went in planning to just do the first 3 that we are able to do. But this time we decided to take a stab at the one in the library with all the books. Wiped once but we finally were able to take down that named. The fight was surprisingly easier than we had thought or been warned about. Then we took a few stabs at the fire elemental. We definately have the strat down but we just do not have the DPS or the extra healing required. So for us thats now 4 WOE named we can farm <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />I am more convinced now than ever that WOE is perfect for a guild like ours.</blockquote>You guys killed the ring event with the books? I find that room to be one of the more difficult ones. If you can take out the books then I'm sure you'll be able to get Diggs and Captain Crunch (I'd rate him as one of the easier mobs in the zone if you bring a little power regen and joust his close range melee aoe) without much trouble. The fire guy is a mix of curing and DPS so he might prove a bit more difficult.

RafaelSmith

05-05-2009, 05:45 PM

<cite>Uguv@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well this weekend we did WOE again. Went in planning to just do the first 3 that we are able to do.But this time we decided to take a stab at the one in the library with all the books. Wiped once but we finally were able to take down that named. The fight was surprisingly easier than we had thought or been warned about. Then we took a few stabs at the fire elemental. We definately have the strat down but we just do not have the DPS or the extra healing required.So for us thats now 4 WOE named we can farm <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />I am more convinced now than ever that WOE is perfect for a guild like ours.</blockquote>You guys killed the ring event with the books? I find that room to be one of the more difficult ones. If you can take out the books then I'm sure you'll be able to get Diggs and Captain Crunch (I'd rate him as one of the easier mobs in the zone if you bring a little power regen and joust his close range melee aoe) without much trouble. The fire guy is a mix of curing and DPS so he might prove a bit more difficult.</blockquote>Yep we did <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Fight was actually counter intuitive... at least to us. At first, with all the books it looks like a AE dmg dream fight..but we ended up with just single target DMG assisting the MT as he and I kept the books busy. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Valdaglerion

05-05-2009, 06:51 PM

never mind

peepshow

05-06-2009, 02:43 AM

You can go in with a pug, non myth full T2 shard armor and clear the entire zone.. If that is not something made exactly for a non raid geared player base, I do not know what is.. I would actually go so far to say, that this zone is the first time where soe has said what they will deliver in advance and then give us exactly that.. Job well done imo.. Now looking forward to the next, which I'm guessing should be for people in T3 shard armor ??

Tympist

05-06-2009, 02:56 AM

<cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>So far the suggestions are things like having a more "perfect" set of classes - why? we had heals, tanks, a control and dps - why does it have to be a very granular specific flavor of those things? Those are rhetorical for SOE, I know the real answer it is because that "is the way it is right now".I can accept constructive "L2P" suggestions such as these but I would also like to see SOE either adjust this crazy, stupid zone that is just like KC during Kunark beta OR re-advertise the zone as to the proper gear/level and expectations are needed BEFORE folks should think about trying it.It is my opinion, yes - opinion, that game play that forces granular specific classes as well as potions/insignias/immunities are NOT in-line with past precendents in heroic content or any heroic level previous to this zone AS WELL AS the ONLY other x2 raid zones in the ENTIRE game which are the city guild writ raids which we are masters of and hold most of the server discoveries for all the loot in those raids.Then there is this leap to raiding which you then basically have to re-learn how to play the game entirely, nothing is intuitive, you need 6 sets of gear, a bunch of other things like potions and insignias that you never needed before and you now have to start excluding your friends and such because they are not fitting the exact min/max mold needed to take down Mob X in Zone Y but stay close by though since we need to switch to ranged/jousting for the next named around the corner.That unrealistic and unmanageble leap of game design and game play is what I have issue with.The issue is NOT that it exists, I am fine with the raid game being what it is and I am glad that many folks enjoy it.OUR next step of PROGRESSION in this game is Ward of Elements. That is OUR end game AND it was advertised as such.That is my issue. Keep the rest of the game as is. You enjoy your parts, we are enjoying ours. But don't lie to us that you are finally releasing new endgame content for us and then it just be a 12 person version of the ridiculous raid game we can't and WON'T be a part of.</blockquote>First off not taking a shaman to a raid zone, even if it is a x2, is silly. Wards + reactives first; druids if you have nothing else. Druids are pretty much terrible.Second, the way you build groups makes no sense. Why put a wizard in the MT group over a coercer?Third... you quit the zone after four pulls? Uh... this would be the primary reason behind people's failures.Anyway, continuing on; you keep comparing this zone to the city writ TRAINING raids. The WoE isn't a training raid and it drops amazing gear for a x2. The best gear you can get in this game w/o raiding x4 zones. Also, its kind of hard for me to believe that you have all of these raids MASTERED when according to your post you haven't even cleared Halls of Seeing yet? Just saying.You complaining about actually needing an adequate raid setup is silly. So are your gasps of OMG I SHOULD USE A POTION OR A SIGNET, WHY FOR. Why? Because that is what good players do. They use everything available to them in order to succeed. Go figure.This so called "leap" in gameplay isn't unrealistic or unmanageable - plenty of players on every server do it every single day. If its not something you are willing to do, then don't raid the zone. If you want the gear from the zone, then adjust your playstyle to acquire it. If not, continue raiding KoS content for your fabled loots.WoE was never advertised as a "casual raid zone for guilds almost clearing KoS x4 raids who are unwilling to change their raid setup, use potions and signets and try more than four pulls in order to devise a strategy. All those raiders out there clearing the city TRAINING raids come blow right through WoE first time in without a shaman while using a wizard in the MT group!" If it was I never saw it.</blockquote>Actually this zone was advertised as a "casual raid zone for the causual group player" Soooo ya in a way i would say that this zone was ment for those that are in guilds that basically group only. As for gear who cares what it gives compaired to how tough the zone is. Just because such and such dident take out anashti sul for such and such piece of gear doesent mean that they arnt just as deserven of comperable loot. Frankly those that enjoy groupen should have every chance under the sun to get loot comperble to a raider. They pay just as much for there account as you. And pribally put just as much time into there groupen as you do your raiden if not more.

Gaige

05-06-2009, 03:56 AM

<cite>Tympist wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually this zone was advertised as a "casual raid zone for the causual group player" Soooo ya in a way i would say that this zone was ment for those that are in guilds that basically group only. As for gear who cares what it gives compaired to how tough the zone is. Just because such and such dident take out anashti sul for such and such piece of gear doesent mean that they arnt just as deserven of comperable loot. Frankly those that enjoy groupen should have every chance under the sun to get loot comperble to a raider. They pay just as much for there account as you. And pribally put just as much time into there groupen as you do your raiden if not more.</blockquote>It was never advertised as a "casual raid zone for the casual group player". That is a lack of reading comprehension. It was advertised as a x2 for non-mythical players in heroic gear. T2 shard gear is heroically gained gear.Actually, the fact that a player hasn't killed Anashti Sul means they do not deserve Anasthi Sul loot. The only way they deserve comparable loot is if they kill a mob of comparable difficulty.Please don't bring up the "I pay the same subscription you do" argument. The fact of the matter is the subscription grants you access to SOE's servers and content, what you do with that acess is on you. You're not entitled to any loot as a part of your subscription fee.If a player puts as much time into grouping as I do into raiding they're going to have a bunch of group rewards to show for it. Go figure.

RafaelSmith

05-06-2009, 10:46 AM

<cite>Tympist wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>So far the suggestions are things like having a more "perfect" set of classes - why? we had heals, tanks, a control and dps - why does it have to be a very granular specific flavor of those things? Those are rhetorical for SOE, I know the real answer it is because that "is the way it is right now".I can accept constructive "L2P" suggestions such as these but I would also like to see SOE either adjust this crazy, stupid zone that is just like KC during Kunark beta OR re-advertise the zone as to the proper gear/level and expectations are needed BEFORE folks should think about trying it.It is my opinion, yes - opinion, that game play that forces granular specific classes as well as potions/insignias/immunities are NOT in-line with past precendents in heroic content or any heroic level previous to this zone AS WELL AS the ONLY other x2 raid zones in the ENTIRE game which are the city guild writ raids which we are masters of and hold most of the server discoveries for all the loot in those raids.Then there is this leap to raiding which you then basically have to re-learn how to play the game entirely, nothing is intuitive, you need 6 sets of gear, a bunch of other things like potions and insignias that you never needed before and you now have to start excluding your friends and such because they are not fitting the exact min/max mold needed to take down Mob X in Zone Y but stay close by though since we need to switch to ranged/jousting for the next named around the corner.That unrealistic and unmanageble leap of game design and game play is what I have issue with.The issue is NOT that it exists, I am fine with the raid game being what it is and I am glad that many folks enjoy it.OUR next step of PROGRESSION in this game is Ward of Elements. That is OUR end game AND it was advertised as such.That is my issue. Keep the rest of the game as is. You enjoy your parts, we are enjoying ours. But don't lie to us that you are finally releasing new endgame content for us and then it just be a 12 person version of the ridiculous raid game we can't and WON'T be a part of.</blockquote>First off not taking a shaman to a raid zone, even if it is a x2, is silly. Wards + reactives first; druids if you have nothing else. Druids are pretty much terrible.Second, the way you build groups makes no sense. Why put a wizard in the MT group over a coercer?Third... you quit the zone after four pulls? Uh... this would be the primary reason behind people's failures.Anyway, continuing on; you keep comparing this zone to the city writ TRAINING raids. The WoE isn't a training raid and it drops amazing gear for a x2. The best gear you can get in this game w/o raiding x4 zones. Also, its kind of hard for me to believe that you have all of these raids MASTERED when according to your post you haven't even cleared Halls of Seeing yet? Just saying.You complaining about actually needing an adequate raid setup is silly. So are your gasps of OMG I SHOULD USE A POTION OR A SIGNET, WHY FOR. Why? Because that is what good players do. They use everything available to them in order to succeed. Go figure.This so called "leap" in gameplay isn't unrealistic or unmanageable - plenty of players on every server do it every single day. If its not something you are willing to do, then don't raid the zone. If you want the gear from the zone, then adjust your playstyle to acquire it. If not, continue raiding KoS content for your fabled loots.WoE was never advertised as a "casual raid zone for guilds almost clearing KoS x4 raids who are unwilling to change their raid setup, use potions and signets and try more than four pulls in order to devise a strategy. All those raiders out there clearing the city TRAINING raids come blow right through WoE first time in without a shaman while using a wizard in the MT group!" If it was I never saw it.</blockquote>Actually this zone was advertised as a "casual raid zone for the causual group player" Soooo ya in a way i would say that this zone was ment for those that are in guilds that basically group only. As for gear who cares what it gives compaired to how tough the zone is. Just because such and such dident take out anashti sul for such and such piece of gear doesent mean that they arnt just as deserven of comperable loot. Frankly those that enjoy groupen should have every chance under the sun to get loot comperble to a raider. They pay just as much for there account as you. And pribally put just as much time into there groupen as you do your raiden if not more.</blockquote>It was never advertised as such. It was advertised as a raid zone for 2 group that are not currently decked out in top end raid gear. The fact that the T3 shard gear attained from within WOE requires having the respective T2 gear means that most likely T2 shard gear...which by the way is heroic gear attained via grouping.....not raiding.......was the baseline SOE used.And your "we pay as much" argument is full of fail. You pay for "access" to the what the game offers. You do not pay for "rights" to what the game offers. Its up to you to progess at whatever pace you like.From the moment you create a character the game is about progression. We progess from level 1 to 10 to 50 to 80....We progress from crappy treasured gear to better legendary...yada yada. What ever game "style" you choose dictates that limit of what gear is available to you. If you group all the time....actually put in the time and such to do every dungeon in the game over and over......like raiders do with raid zones then you will have access to the absolute best loot available for your "Style". At which point its up to you..not SOE if you wanna try to progress further.If I am level 5......I cannot fight level 30s....I have to progress to a level point where I can. Its the same with gear....

Mytilma

05-06-2009, 11:09 AM

<cite>Scipius@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can go in with a pug, non myth full T2 shard armor and clear the entire zone.. </blockquote>I would applaud any pug which can do that. But even if they can't, it's not how this zone is intended to work, anyway.First, new raid content (even if it's x2) is usually not for pugs. It's for people who know what they're doing, if they want to progress far. Only much later, when strategies are hammered out and people are geared up (may be by later heroic candy in the style of RE2 and Veksar), you can take a bunch of people, who know the encounters, and then fill up with randoms, and still succeed.Second, as increasing difficulties of the encounters show, it's a progression zone. Meaning, you can go in with a well set up x2 raid of halfway good players in t2 and fabled epic and progress as far as your gear and abilities allow. In this zone, the first 3 mobs should be doable this way. With the patterns, that drop (smart loot!), people can replace their old t2 pieces with new t3. If you are a set bonus fan you may want to wait until you have 2-3. With improvement in gear and better knowledge about encounters, you'll be able to progress farther in, and again gear up. Rinse, repeat until you clear it.

SpineDoc

05-06-2009, 02:35 PM

Yep, to offset my large repair bill and to add to the 200 useless shards I already have in the bank. Still feels like I came out with less than nothing.<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SpineDoc wrote:</cite><blockquote>What kills me though is after playing all day like that I actually got zero drops, one Templar item dropped in WOE which I lost the roll on (I just don't understand shared patterns), and the stuff that drops in VP IMO kind of sucks for plate healers. So I walked away with .000014 of AA xp maybe, and nothing else, sigh.</blockquote>You got a couple shards and some plat!</blockquote>

Yimway

05-06-2009, 02:50 PM

<cite>SpineDoc wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep, to offset my large repair bill and to add to the 200 useless shards I already have in the bank. Still feels like I came out with less than nothing.<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>You got a couple shards and some plat!</blockquote></blockquote>Oh, I know, that was <Sarcasm>

Tympist

05-06-2009, 03:44 PM

<cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tympist wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually this zone was advertised as a "casual raid zone for the causual group player" Soooo ya in a way i would say that this zone was ment for those that are in guilds that basically group only. As for gear who cares what it gives compaired to how tough the zone is. Just because such and such dident take out anashti sul for such and such piece of gear doesent mean that they arnt just as deserven of comperable loot. Frankly those that enjoy groupen should have every chance under the sun to get loot comperble to a raider. They pay just as much for there account as you. And pribally put just as much time into there groupen as you do your raiden if not more.</blockquote>It was never advertised as a "casual raid zone for the casual group player". That is a lack of reading comprehension. It was advertised as a x2 for non-mythical players in heroic gear. T2 shard gear is heroically gained gear.Actually, the fact that a player hasn't killed Anashti Sul means they do not deserve Anasthi Sul loot. The only way they deserve comparable loot is if they kill a mob of comparable difficulty.Please don't bring up the "I pay the same subscription you do" argument. The fact of the matter is the subscription grants you access to SOE's servers and content, what you do with that acess is on you. You're not entitled to any loot as a part of your subscription fee.If a player puts as much time into grouping as I do into raiding they're going to have a bunch of group rewards to show for it. Go figure.</blockquote>Thats funny given that gear was equal nomatter how you got it at launch as far as fabled. So obviously it was intended that way. As for how it was advertised i was flat told by reahov that it was ment to be a casual raid zone ment for the casual group player. As for content dificulty there are heroic mobs out there that are just as hard as a raid mob and dont drop any were near as nice as loot sooo your arguement is bs.

Gaige

05-06-2009, 03:58 PM

<cite>Tympist wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats funny given that gear was equal nomatter how you got it at launch as far as fabled. So obviously it was intended that way. As for how it was advertised i was flat told by reahov that it was ment to be a casual raid zone ment for the casual group player. As for content dificulty there are heroic mobs out there that are just as hard as a raid mob and dont drop any were near as nice as loot sooo your arguement is bs.</blockquote>Fabled from non-raids was almost impossible to get at launch. It was ultra random and ultra rare. However if you raided you could almost be fully fabled. So it was never intended that way. At launch this game catered to hardcore raiders like woah. Now it doesn't. Now you can get fabled from solo quests.Reahov is QA, he isn't a dev. The devs who made this zone have commented that the difficulty is right where they wanted it.Last I checked casual group players can still get T2 shard gear and their fabled epic, which is all this zone required.There is no heroic mob in this game that even comes close to being just as hard as a raid mob, let alone as hard as the hardest raid mobs.

Yimway

05-06-2009, 04:11 PM

<cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no heroic mob in this game that even comes close to being just as hard as a raid mob, let alone as hard as the hardest raid mobs.</blockquote>I'm not sure you meant what you said there.Varsoon, Ferzhul, Library, etc are heroic mobs that are more difficult than the RoK contested domini.Granted, they have better loot tables too, but just being a heroic encounter doesn't mean it is easier than any given raid mob.

RafaelSmith

05-06-2009, 04:16 PM

<cite>Tympist wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tympist wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually this zone was advertised as a "casual raid zone for the causual group player" Soooo ya in a way i would say that this zone was ment for those that are in guilds that basically group only. As for gear who cares what it gives compaired to how tough the zone is. Just because such and such dident take out anashti sul for such and such piece of gear doesent mean that they arnt just as deserven of comperable loot. Frankly those that enjoy groupen should have every chance under the sun to get loot comperble to a raider. They pay just as much for there account as you. And pribally put just as much time into there groupen as you do your raiden if not more.</blockquote>It was never advertised as a "casual raid zone for the casual group player". That is a lack of reading comprehension. It was advertised as a x2 for non-mythical players in heroic gear. T2 shard gear is heroically gained gear.Actually, the fact that a player hasn't killed Anashti Sul means they do not deserve Anasthi Sul loot. The only way they deserve comparable loot is if they kill a mob of comparable difficulty.Please don't bring up the "I pay the same subscription you do" argument. The fact of the matter is the subscription grants you access to SOE's servers and content, what you do with that acess is on you. You're not entitled to any loot as a part of your subscription fee.If a player puts as much time into grouping as I do into raiding they're going to have a bunch of group rewards to show for it. Go figure.</blockquote>Thats funny given that gear was equal nomatter how you got it at launch as far as fabled. So obviously it was intended that way. As for how it was advertised i was flat told by reahov that it was ment to be a casual raid zone ment for the casual group player. As for content dificulty there are heroic mobs out there that are just as hard as a raid mob and dont drop any were near as nice as loot sooo your arguement is bs.</blockquote>Ok fine...if you insist on using subjective labels like 'casual'. Casual group players at a minimum are fully capable of getting T2 shard gear and their fabled epic. 12 of those players, that know how to properly construct groups and know how to play their classes can do WOE. I am certain SOE has logs that prove this is happening each and every day.No matter how you slice it WOE delivered what was intended and described. Its dificulty is in line with its rewards and requirements.I only wish it had a shorter lockout timer....but I totally understand why it does not.

Gaige

05-06-2009, 04:32 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not sure you meant what you said there.Varsoon, Ferzhul, Library, etc are heroic mobs that are more difficult than the RoK contested domini.Granted, they have better loot tables too, but just being a heroic encounter doesn't mean it is easier than any given raid mob.</blockquote>The domini should never be referred to as raid encounters, but fine. I obviously was talking about real raid encounters.

therodge

05-06-2009, 04:41 PM

<cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not sure you meant what you said there.Varsoon, Ferzhul, Library, etc are heroic mobs that are more difficult than the RoK contested domini.Granted, they have better loot tables too, but just being a heroic encounter doesn't mean it is easier than any given raid mob.</blockquote>The domini should never be referred to as raid encounters, but fine. I obviously was talking about real raid encounters.</blockquote>acually if you can clear varsoon you can take the same group and 1 group pr tizarah and probobly make headway on OK

feldon30

05-06-2009, 04:45 PM

<cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no heroic mob in this game that even comes close to being just as hard as a raid mob, let alone as hard as the hardest raid mobs.</blockquote>Makes me think of the Ranger epic weapon monkey. Enraged Wumpus. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gaige

05-06-2009, 04:48 PM

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote>acually if you can clear varsoon you can take the same group and 1 group pr tizarah and probobly make headway on OK</blockquote>Uh, ok. Last expansions raids, again. PR was a joke when it was launched. Can we at least compare TSO heroic content to TSO raids?

feldon30

05-06-2009, 04:56 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok fine...if you insist on using subjective labels like 'casual'. Casual group players at a minimum are fully capable of getting T2 shard gear and their fabled epic. 12 of those players, that know how to properly construct groups and know how to play their classes can do WOE. I am certain SOE has logs that prove this is happening each and every day.No matter how you slice it WOE delivered what was intended and described. Its dificulty is in line with its rewards and requirements.I only wish it had a shorter lockout timer....but I totally understand why it does not.</blockquote>QFE.The one point being made that I am feeling stronger and stronger about is SET BONUS BREAKUPS. Getting T3 pieces is a DOWNGRADE for some folks if they lose their set bonuses. Namely 8% mitigation for tanks, base damage for wizzies, etc.There's got to be some workaround or solution for the set bonuses.

Yimway

05-06-2009, 05:22 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The one point being made that I am feeling stronger and stronger about is SET BONUS BREAKUPS. Getting T3 pieces is a DOWNGRADE for some folks if they lose their set bonuses. Namely 8% mitigation for tanks, base damage for wizzies, etc.There's got to be some workaround or solution for the set bonuses.</blockquote>This is a univeral problem though. The only sollution is to change how we value set pieces. that would require putting a mitigation bonus starting at 1 or 2 pieces, that gets stronger up to 8% with 5 pieces, or something like that.But I'm fairly sure they wanted us to have to make these trade offs.

Trynnus1

05-06-2009, 05:34 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The one point being made that I am feeling stronger and stronger about is SET BONUS BREAKUPS. Getting T3 pieces is a DOWNGRADE for some folks if they lose their set bonuses. Namely 8% mitigation for tanks, base damage for wizzies, etc.There's got to be some workaround or solution for the set bonuses.</blockquote>This is a univeral problem though. The only sollution is to change how we value set pieces. that would require putting a mitigation bonus starting at 1 or 2 pieces, that gets stronger up to 8% with 5 pieces, or something like that.But I'm fairly sure they wanted us to have to make these trade offs.</blockquote>This is the most important point to me. If I upgrade less than 5 pieces I am actually nerfing myself by losing the +7 Mit. This is NOT progressive.If as a raid force you do not have the DPS to kill the fire mob, there is not enough loot in this zone that boost your DPS enough to kill him.As I posted in another thread, this zone is farmed by x4 raiding guilds for loot and to flag for the x4 zone. As the zone currently stands, guilds that are able to clear this zone are more than capable of clearing VP and the easier TSO x4 zones there by giving them mythicals and a fair amount of Fabled loot, if they have not done this already.I challenge anyone to put together "the perfect x2 raid setup" with people that only have heoricly optained gear. It will be a failure. Why? because if that is all the gear they can obtain then they will not have the experience to deal with the mobs in this zone. I know some or going to come and say "i use to raid, I can do it" ect. I just dont have the time to raid right now... Bottomline is that no matter what the devs said or did not say this zone is meant for people that currently raid TSO x4 zones successfully.

Freliant

05-06-2009, 05:36 PM

<cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote>...Fabled from non-raids was almost impossible to get at launch. It was ultra random and ultra rare. However if you raided you could almost be fully fabled. So it was never intended that way. At launch this game catered to hardcore raiders like woah. Now it doesn't. Now you can get fabled from solo quests.</blockquote>ok, as a player that did this game from launch, I have to interject. 1) Fabled from non-raids was not "almost impossible". I remember my very first fabled... I got it off a gnoll in Archer Woods in Antonica. It was a fabled level 10 1 handed crushing weapon. My next fabled came from Stormhold. a 1 handed dagger with an awesome (at that time) I also remember getting a 1 handed blade from a camp in feerot that had aoe encounter proc which just made me go "woah". Once at the cap (level 50), there was always a chance that that next named you killed would be a lucky one to drop a fabled you could use. Legendary were hard to ever see, but fabled were doable for those with a solid group to do content.A few LU later, they had to change that because those raiders found out that if you got enough raid gear and stacked your mitigation, you were essentially immortal. Hence, the very first all around nerf to items and how they worked. From that LU forward (I think it was Live Update 4) there has been a steady and progressive trend to make a distinction between those that raid and those that do not. Originally, even if you never raided, you had a chance to get a fabled item from ANY mob you fought... and that is still the case in the original level 1-50 content. Starting from DoF forward, the only way you could see a "fabled" was through raiding. And starting in EoF forward, they gave a shot for certain heroic content to drop fabled, and exponentially more in RoK, and increased much more in TSO.Things they have not implemented again though, is the tradeable fabled items. They have stated that by making the items "no trade", they can make them more powerful than other like level item/quality because you have to earn it... someone should clue in some devs on loot rights... but that is another story. My point still remains that the "original" game had a chance for non-raiders to get fabled loot if they killed the right targets often enough, a trend that has started once more since RoK and that in my opinion should continue to be implemented. World Wide drops at 1 in 10,000 kills sounds about right for fabled loot....

RafaelSmith

05-06-2009, 05:53 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok fine...if you insist on using subjective labels like 'casual'. Casual group players at a minimum are fully capable of getting T2 shard gear and their fabled epic. 12 of those players, that know how to properly construct groups and know how to play their classes can do WOE. I am certain SOE has logs that prove this is happening each and every day.No matter how you slice it WOE delivered what was intended and described. Its dificulty is in line with its rewards and requirements.I only wish it had a shorter lockout timer....but I totally understand why it does not.</blockquote>QFE.The one point being made that I am feeling stronger and stronger about is SET BONUS BREAKUPS. Getting T3 pieces is a DOWNGRADE for some folks if they lose their set bonuses. Namely 8% mitigation for tanks, base damage for wizzies, etc.There's got to be some workaround or solution for the set bonuses.</blockquote>Yes, we did WOE last night and I got my first 2 T3 pieces. After looking at them and playing around with various gear sets I was disappointed to realize I really didnt progress or "upgrade". I have really hated the way SOE implemented tiered set bonuses. Faced a similar delima earlier on when switching from T1 to T2 but it wasnt as bad.

Yimway

05-06-2009, 05:54 PM

LardLord

05-06-2009, 06:04 PM

<cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I challenge anyone to put together "the perfect x2 raid setup" with people that only have heoricly optained gear. It will be a failure. Why? because if that is all the gear they can obtain then they will not have the experience to deal with the mobs in this zone. I know some or going to come and say "i use to raid, I can do it" ect. I just dont have the time to raid right now... Bottomline is that no matter what the devs said or did not say this zone is meant for people that currently raid TSO x4 zones successfully.</blockquote>It's a raid...it's meant for people who like raiding. If you don't like raiding, don't do this zone...there's tons of solo and heroic content. Not everyone who enjoys raiding is going to already be clearing TSO x4 content. Maybe some people will get to experience raiding who wouldn't have before, since it's much easier to put an x2 raid together than an x4...some of those people will hopefully like it, some will certainly hate it. Just as solo'ing is more enjoyable for some people than others, so is raiding.And you say, "It will be a failure," but I think your definitions of success and failure are off. Most people do not expect to clear a raid zone on their first zone in (unless they are overgeared for it). I'm pretty confident it's possible to find 12 non-raid-geared players who would be able to at least get the first named down, and that's enough to avoid "failure" when we're talking about raiding.

RafaelSmith

05-06-2009, 06:12 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I challenge anyone to put together "the perfect x2 raid setup" with people that only have heoricly optained gear. It will be a failure. Why? because if that is all the gear they can obtain then they will not have the experience to deal with the mobs in this zone. I know some or going to come and say "i use to raid, I can do it" ect. I just dont have the time to raid right now... Bottomline is that no matter what the devs said or did not say this zone is meant for people that currently raid TSO x4 zones successfully.</blockquote>It's a raid...it's meant for people who like raiding. If you don't like raiding, don't do this zone...there's tons of solo and heroic content. Not everyone who enjoys raiding is going to already be clearing TSO x4 content. Maybe some people will get to experience raiding who wouldn't have before, since it's much easier to put an x2 raid together than an x4...some of those people will hopefully like it, some will certainly hate it. Just as solo'ing is more enjoyable for some people than others, so is raiding.And you say, "It will be a failure," but I think your definitions of success and failure are off. Most people do not expect to clear a raid zone on their first zone in (unless they are overgeared for it). I'm pretty confident it's possible to find 12 non-raid-geared players who would be able to at least get the first named down, and that's enough to avoid "failure" when we're talking about raiding.</blockquote>QFEMy guild has a good 8-10 people that enjoy raiding and are more mix/maxers than the rest of the guild. WOE is perfect for us as it gives us something to test ourselves against and gear up. Trust me putting together 12 people is a million times easier for us.And our definition of sucess when we goto a raid zone is that we hopefully got someone a upgrade and that we learned something we didnt already know....so we can do better and get further the next time.

Trynnus1

05-06-2009, 08:39 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I challenge anyone to put together "the perfect x2 raid setup" with people that only have heoricly optained gear. It will be a failure. Why? because if that is all the gear they can obtain then they will not have the experience to deal with the mobs in this zone. I know some or going to come and say "i use to raid, I can do it" ect. I just dont have the time to raid right now... Bottomline is that no matter what the devs said or did not say this zone is meant for people that currently raid TSO x4 zones successfully.</blockquote>It's a raid...it's meant for people who like raiding. If you don't like raiding, don't do this zone...there's tons of solo and heroic content. Not everyone who enjoys raiding is going to already be clearing TSO x4 content. Maybe some people will get to experience raiding who wouldn't have before, since it's much easier to put an x2 raid together than an x4...some of those people will hopefully like it, some will certainly hate it. Just as solo'ing is more enjoyable for some people than others, so is raiding.And you say, "It will be a failure," but I think your definitions of success and failure are off. Most people do not expect to clear a raid zone on their first zone in (unless they are overgeared for it). I'm pretty confident it's possible to find 12 non-raid-geared players who would be able to at least get the first named down, and that's enough to avoid "failure" when we're talking about raiding.</blockquote>QFEMy guild has a good 8-10 people that enjoy raiding and are more mix/maxers than the rest of the guild. WOE is perfect for us as it gives us something to test ourselves against and gear up. Trust me putting together 12 people is a million times easier for us.And our definition of sucess when we goto a raid zone is that we hopefully got someone a upgrade and that we learned something we didnt already know....so we can do better and get further the next time.</blockquote>Well what can I say but you made my point for me. you have 8-10 min/maxers that like to raid. Hmmm, I bet you are all in T2 with the minimum fabled, but i would guess at least a couple have their mythicals and a few pieces or raid loot from RoK and/or TSO zones because thats what make you a "min/maxer" getting the best gear you can.What I am considering a "failure" is that people claim progression on the raid zone. To me as a tank, I will NOT upgrade an armour to T3 until I can upgrade the minimum 5 pieces because its a DOWNGRADE by losing the +7 Mit set bonus.You can argue with me all you want, you can raid the zone all you want and get a single upgrade for someone, this does not effect me in the slightest. With a ~5 day lock out and getting the first 3 named dead consider the chance of 2 patterns dropping make it 4 patterns every 5 days it will still take you 2 months to get all 3 pieces for your 12 person crew (if its the same 12 players every raid). Consider that the 3 pieces you have received do not make a significant increase in you DPS you will not be able to kill the 5th named onward even when you figure Diggs out.The point I am trying to make and people are missing is that something is not right here. I dont mind the difficulty, I dont mind the lockout timer, I dont mind the idea of progressive zones. What is wrong here is the combination of all 3 elements (dont mind the pun).I raid, I am a min/maxer. Our raid force will progress quickly in here but I dont see a gear progression or the ability to kill the hard mobs comes from loot in here. It will come from upgrades to our raid force externally such as mythicals, TSO patterns, Fabled drops in TSO zones.As for my challenge about 12 people T2 and fabled epics failing at the zone, well I dont think such a force exists if they are "raiders" as Quabi pointed out. Because if you are a "raider" then you would not settle for your fabled epic and T2 gear. VP is not difficult after Nex and Druusk, PUGs can clear it now with the proper leadership.Guess will just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Enjoy farming your 3 named for the summer.

Elanjar

05-07-2009, 08:52 PM

Just because YOU won't break your 5 piece bonus does not mean its broken. And just because YOU value that mit bonus so much does not mean YOU are right. I broke my 5 piece and guess what.... I can still tank it up to Aiden. I do have my myth, but trust me you're overvaluing that mit bonus. Crit mit and resists is what will get you through that zone. And a couple healers that know wtf2do

therodge

05-08-2009, 12:28 AM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because YOU won't break your 5 piece bonus does not mean its broken. And just because YOU value that mit bonus so much does not mean YOU are right. I broke my 5 piece and guess what.... I can still tank it up to Aiden. I do have my myth, but trust me you're overvaluing that mit bonus. Crit mit and resists is what will get you through that zone. And a couple healers that know wtf2do</blockquote>Acually hate to tell you but your flat out wrong the only mob that requires substantial crit mit out of the first 6 is khost which mind you is iffy in and of its own. their are opinions and hard numbers and hard numbers say you will take less damage with that 5 peice set bonus then with the 4 peices of crit mit (and if you can get 4 you can get 5 nullifying your argument entirely) crits are mitigated like any other hit and takeing off the 5 set bonus you will loose atleast 5% mit which means you will tae 5 % more damage overall crit mit onl mitigates crit damage and the mobs at best have a 20% crit rate which means even with 4 set peices (roughly 12% crit mit higher then the teir 2 set) that means you will be takeing 2.2% less damage overall on named, in order for your argument to even out you would need 50% mob crit minimum.

Mathafern

05-08-2009, 01:29 PM

<cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well what can I say but you made my point for me. you have 8-10 min/maxers that like to raid. Hmmm, I bet you are all in T2 with the minimum fabled, but i would guess at least a couple have their mythicals and a few pieces or raid loot from RoK and/or TSO zones because thats what make you a "min/maxer" getting the best gear you can.What I am considering a "failure" is that people claim progression on the raid zone. To me as a tank, I will NOT upgrade an armour to T3 until I can upgrade the minimum 5 pieces because its a DOWNGRADE by losing the +7 Mit set bonus.You can argue with me all you want, you can raid the zone all you want and get a single upgrade for someone, this does not effect me in the slightest. With a ~5 day lock out and getting the first 3 named dead consider the chance of 2 patterns dropping make it 4 patterns every 5 days it will still take you 2 months to get all 3 pieces for your 12 person crew (if its the same 12 players every raid). Consider that the 3 pieces you have received do not make a significant increase in you DPS you will not be able to kill the 5th named onward even when you figure Diggs out.The point I am trying to make and people are missing is that something is not right here. I dont mind the difficulty, I dont mind the lockout timer, I dont mind the idea of progressive zones. What is wrong here is the combination of all 3 elements (dont mind the pun).I raid, I am a min/maxer. Our raid force will progress quickly in here but I dont see a gear progression or the ability to kill the hard mobs comes from loot in here. It will come from upgrades to our raid force externally such as mythicals, TSO patterns, Fabled drops in TSO zones.As for my challenge about 12 people T2 and fabled epics failing at the zone, well I dont think such a force exists if they are "raiders" as Quabi pointed out. Because if you are a "raider" then you would not settle for your fabled epic and T2 gear. VP is not difficult after Nex and Druusk, PUGs can clear it now with the proper leadership.Guess will just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Enjoy farming your 3 named for the summer.</blockquote>You lose your bet. And we're now up to 4 names in WoE, with a good start on 5 and 6.WoE is exactly what we needed to make progress with just 12ish serious players to draw on at any given time. Much easier for us than putting together 24- which we manage but not as often as I'd like.I would love to see more content like this.

therodge

05-08-2009, 03:08 PM

<cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well what can I say but you made my point for me. you have 8-10 min/maxers that like to raid. Hmmm, I bet you are all in T2 with the minimum fabled, but i would guess at least a couple have their mythicals and a few pieces or raid loot from RoK and/or TSO zones because thats what make you a "min/maxer" getting the best gear you can.What I am considering a "failure" is that people claim progression on the raid zone. To me as a tank, I will NOT upgrade an armour to T3 until I can upgrade the minimum 5 pieces because its a DOWNGRADE by losing the +7 Mit set bonus.You can argue with me all you want, you can raid the zone all you want and get a single upgrade for someone, this does not effect me in the slightest. With a ~5 day lock out and getting the first 3 named dead consider the chance of 2 patterns dropping make it 4 patterns every 5 days it will still take you 2 months to get all 3 pieces for your 12 person crew (if its the same 12 players every raid). Consider that the 3 pieces you have received do not make a significant increase in you DPS you will not be able to kill the 5th named onward even when you figure Diggs out.The point I am trying to make and people are missing is that something is not right here. I dont mind the difficulty, I dont mind the lockout timer, I dont mind the idea of progressive zones. What is wrong here is the combination of all 3 elements (dont mind the pun).I raid, I am a min/maxer. Our raid force will progress quickly in here but I dont see a gear progression or the ability to kill the hard mobs comes from loot in here. It will come from upgrades to our raid force externally such as mythicals, TSO patterns, Fabled drops in TSO zones.As for my challenge about 12 people T2 and fabled epics failing at the zone, well I dont think such a force exists if they are "raiders" as Quabi pointed out. Because if you are a "raider" then you would not settle for your fabled epic and T2 gear. VP is not difficult after Nex and Druusk, PUGs can clear it now with the proper leadership.Guess will just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Enjoy farming your 3 named for the summer.</blockquote>You lose your bet. And we're now up to 4 names in WoE, with a good start on 5 and 6.WoE is exactly what we needed to make progress with just 12ish serious players to draw on at any given time. Much easier for us than putting together 24- which we manage but not as often as I'd like.I would love to see more content like this.</blockquote>eh i think your both off. if you have some very talented healers and a very talented aoe tank 5 of the named are duable the 2 theirs only really 1 dps check out of the first 6 and thats the fire elemental. i still think that dps check needs to be nerfed (ala maybe double the spawn time on adds) but i have after running it several times come to the conclution its duable. the books are a tank and healer check. but thats about it. well i also think the trash aoe tick needs to be on a slightly larger timer maybe 10 seconds for the first tick which would equal out trash.Edit: the 5 named can be done in teir 2 armor and up to that point their isnt really any progression maybe a false prgression becuase ou learn how to operate the zone but thier isnt any real gear progression.

RafaelSmith

05-08-2009, 03:24 PM

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote>eh i think your both off. if you have some very talented healers and a very talented aoe tank 5 of the named are duable the 2 theirs only really 1 dps check out of the first 6 and thats the fire elemental. i still think that dps check needs to be nerfed (ala maybe double the spawn time on adds) but i have after running it several times come to the conclution its duable. the books are a tank and healer check. but thats about it. well i also think the trash aoe tick needs to be on a slightly larger timer maybe 10 seconds for the first tick which would equal out trash.Edit: the 5 named can be done in teir 2 armor and up to that point their isnt really any progression maybe a false prgression becuase ou learn how to operate the zone but thier isnt any real gear progression.</blockquote>At first I thought the trash AOE dot was excessive....but now i cannot recall the last time I died because of that dot. While it is annoying, it is something that can be avoided and delt with once everyone knows how to what to do or not do.We have only attempted fire elemental a few times so I can not really comment on if the DPS check is too much or not.But thus far things seem to be just about right. The Book fight took us abit to figure out but once we got it down its actually deceptively easy. Your are correct...its entirely a test of skill for the tank(s) and healers.

05-09-2009, 08:19 PM

Get a sk to tank, guardians are currently no where near as good as sks.

yohann koldheart

05-10-2009, 10:35 AM

or a paly, we cleared it last night with a paly main tank and SK off tank, had 3 healers total inquis,mystic in mt group and warden in off tank group. took about 3 and half hours to clear. illy in off tank group , coercer in MT group and filled the rest out with assasans ,rangers and swashy's for dps

Macross_JR

05-10-2009, 10:53 AM

<cite>Adriana@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>or a paly, we cleared it last night with a paly main tank and SK off tank, had 3 healers total inquis,mystic in mt group and warden in off tank group. took about 3 and half hours to clear. illy in off tank group , coercer in MT group and filled the rest out with assasans and rangers for dps</blockquote>Then I guess the two guards and 3 healers we had in the raid force when we did the book room are pretty much awesome then? Didn't have a pally or sk, agro was spotty sometimes but the healers and dirges rez'd and we continued.

Noaani

05-10-2009, 12:29 PM

<cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then I guess the two guards and 3 healers we had in the raid force when we did the book room are pretty much awesome then? Didn't have a pally or sk, agro was spotty sometimes but the healers and dirges rez'd and we continued.</blockquote>Thats pretty much an oxymoron.If the guards and healers were pretty much awesome, they wouldn't have needed to rez anyone.

Rahatmattata

05-10-2009, 06:34 PM

Only question you need to ask is, "Did the mob die?"

Beghard

05-10-2009, 11:54 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote>...Fabled from non-raids was almost impossible to get at launch. It was ultra random and ultra rare. However if you raided you could almost be fully fabled. So it was never intended that way. At launch this game catered to hardcore raiders like woah. Now it doesn't. Now you can get fabled from solo quests.</blockquote>ok, as a player that did this game from launch, I have to interject. 1) Fabled from non-raids was not "almost impossible". I remember my very first fabled... I got it off a gnoll in Archer Woods in Antonica. It was a fabled level 10 1 handed crushing weapon. My next fabled came from Stormhold. a 1 handed dagger with an awesome (at that time) I also remember getting a 1 handed blade from a camp in feerot that had aoe encounter proc which just made me go "woah". Once at the cap (level 50), there was always a chance that that next named you killed would be a lucky one to drop a fabled you could use. Legendary were hard to ever see, but fabled were doable for those with a solid group to do content.A few LU later, they had to change that because those raiders found out that if you got enough raid gear and stacked your mitigation, you were essentially immortal. Hence, the very first all around nerf to items and how they worked. From that LU forward (I think it was Live Update 4) there has been a steady and progressive trend to make a distinction between those that raid and those that do not. Originally, even if you never raided, you had a chance to get a fabled item from ANY mob you fought... and that is still the case in the original level 1-50 content. Starting from DoF forward, the only way you could see a "fabled" was through raiding. And starting in EoF forward, they gave a shot for certain heroic content to drop fabled, and exponentially more in RoK, and increased much more in TSO.Things they have not implemented again though, is the tradeable fabled items. They have stated that by making the items "no trade", they can make them more powerful than other like level item/quality because you have to earn it... someone should clue in some devs on loot rights... but that is another story. My point still remains that the "original" game had a chance for non-raiders to get fabled loot if they killed the right targets often enough, a trend that has started once more since RoK and that in my opinion should continue to be implemented. World Wide drops at 1 in 10,000 kills sounds about right for fabled loot....</blockquote>Except that ShimCit had a guaranted fabled drop off the same named every time? And then the fabled robe from Nest in the next xpac? Not to mention all the stuff im forgetting? And no, at lvl 50 when the game was new you could not find good fabled from grp content. Infact you couldnt even find fabled gear from raids half the time. If the world wide chanse for any mob to drop the fabled is 1 in 10,000, you do realize that means that ANY persons chanse of seeing the fabled when they kill the mob is the same 1 in 10,000 number. I know lots of ppl with fabled grp gear that didnt run the zones 10,000 times. I would be fine with that anyway since its stupid to have so much stupidly good gear droping in grp stuff.

therodge

05-11-2009, 02:18 AM

<cite>Beghard wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote>...Fabled from non-raids was almost impossible to get at launch. It was ultra random and ultra rare. However if you raided you could almost be fully fabled. So it was never intended that way. At launch this game catered to hardcore raiders like woah. Now it doesn't. Now you can get fabled from solo quests.</blockquote>ok, as a player that did this game from launch, I have to interject. 1) Fabled from non-raids was not "almost impossible". I remember my very first fabled... I got it off a gnoll in Archer Woods in Antonica. It was a fabled level 10 1 handed crushing weapon. My next fabled came from Stormhold. a 1 handed dagger with an awesome (at that time) I also remember getting a 1 handed blade from a camp in feerot that had aoe encounter proc which just made me go "woah". Once at the cap (level 50), there was always a chance that that next named you killed would be a lucky one to drop a fabled you could use. Legendary were hard to ever see, but fabled were doable for those with a solid group to do content.A few LU later, they had to change that because those raiders found out that if you got enough raid gear and stacked your mitigation, you were essentially immortal. Hence, the very first all around nerf to items and how they worked. From that LU forward (I think it was Live Update 4) there has been a steady and progressive trend to make a distinction between those that raid and those that do not. Originally, even if you never raided, you had a chance to get a fabled item from ANY mob you fought... and that is still the case in the original level 1-50 content. Starting from DoF forward, the only way you could see a "fabled" was through raiding. And starting in EoF forward, they gave a shot for certain heroic content to drop fabled, and exponentially more in RoK, and increased much more in TSO.Things they have not implemented again though, is the tradeable fabled items. They have stated that by making the items "no trade", they can make them more powerful than other like level item/quality because you have to earn it... someone should clue in some devs on loot rights... but that is another story. My point still remains that the "original" game had a chance for non-raiders to get fabled loot if they killed the right targets often enough, a trend that has started once more since RoK and that in my opinion should continue to be implemented. World Wide drops at 1 in 10,000 kills sounds about right for fabled loot....</blockquote>Except that ShimCit had a guaranted fabled drop off the same named every time? And then the fabled robe from Nest in the next xpac? Not to mention all the stuff im forgetting? And no, at lvl 50 when the game was new you could not find good fabled from grp content. Infact you couldnt even find fabled gear from raids half the time. If the world wide chanse for any mob to drop the fabled is 1 in 10,000, you do realize that means that ANY persons chanse of seeing the fabled when they kill the mob is the same 1 in 10,000 number. I know lots of ppl with fabled grp gear that didnt run the zones 10,000 times. I would be fine with that anyway since its stupid to have so much stupidly good gear droping in grp stuff.</blockquote>just for the recod i have played since realese and the guy thinking fabled drops were even exsistant off mobs at the beginning is off.I salaughtered my way up through group instances when this game began i did not see a single master nor a single fabled infact masters were going for upwards of 1-3plat on my server at the time (yeah doesent seem like much but when you factor in a filthy rich charichter might have 2plat it was sad) and fabled gear was non exsistant via the broker, legendary gear was non exsistant on the broker. HECK if you were in full mastercrafted you were uber geared, if you were in legendary gear (which is what alot of raid named droped) you were godlike. and if you were in full fabled people would stand under you in hopes maybe some of your uber would drip onto them. i didnt see my first peice of fabled gear from heroic named until KoS which if i remember correctly is when they revamped old world for the first time allowing legendary gear masters and fabled to drop at a reasonable pace. the only fabled gear that was semi common was the crafted rubicite but that was taken out of the game.

Noaani

05-11-2009, 10:39 AM

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote>just for the recod i have played since realese and the guy thinking fabled drops were even exsistant off mobs at the beginning is off.</blockquote>Your both wrong actually.Raid mobs in T5 dropped either fabled or treasured, mastercrafted did not exist, all rare crafted was legendary, the only other legendary items were quest rewards (HQs and prismatic weapons mostly, but also things like Tarton's Wheel).As to the person saying fabled pre DoF was common, even just a master spell had a 1/10,000 chance to drop from a heroic named mob (as per Ilucide posting reciently). Items were rarer. The vast majority of players would get to the level cap having never seen a maaster chest, and even not knowing that there were metal chests.DoF was where non raid players started viewing specific fabled items as a right for playing the game, as certian zones dropped a lot of them (most of what is now legendary dropping from Poets Palace used to be fabled). A non raiding player could expect to have 2 - 3 fabled items in that expansion.

Freliant

05-11-2009, 11:49 AM

I never said that fabled pre-DoF were common, I only mentioned 3 items that I got leveling up. My first and only master I remember seeing pre DoF was from a random mob in Runnyeye. That is a total of 4 metal chests leveling up to the original cap in the first few months. And I had a solid group that killed alot of mobs regularly (Heck, leveling without the "adventure xp" was hard work, and I remember being inside Ruins of Varsoon CAMPING that golem room for 3 hours and only coming out with 3/4 of a level... yep, that was "fast" leveling for us.World Epics dropped 1 fabled and alot of treasured every time you killed them. The only epics that didn't do this, were from many of the instances. I remember doing spirits of the lost, and getting tons and tons of treasured rewards.. don't remember seeing a master drop from them, and the last guy ALWAYS dropped a metal chest. Sub-bosses pre DoF weren't known for always dropping fabled, but bosses always did. Seeing a fully fabled "anyone' was hard, but it was there and doable.My point is, Master spells were certainly very rare to find... in fact, I would wager to say rarer than items, because while fabled were guaranteed drop from boss mobs, master spells seemed to be 1/10,000 reguardless of what you were killing. A raiding guild pre-dof was getting 6-10 fabled items per week if they had the mobs on farm status. All the zones that updated the prismatics, for example, were almost guaranteed a fabled, and these zones were "easy"... ussually 1 boss mob to kill. Longest prismatic quest zone was Darathar's Island.

Noaani

05-11-2009, 11:54 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>All the zones that updated the prismatics, for example, were almost guaranteed a fabled, and these zones were "easy"... ussually 1 boss mob to kill. Longest prismatic quest zone was Darathar's Island.</blockquote>The three Drakota you needed to kill for Fire and Ice, to get the items used to talk to Vox, had less than a 1% chance to drop anything other than treasured.All x2 contested mobs had a chance to drop treasured, but x4 dropped a guarenteed fabled item (barring a few bugs). Masters in T5 were common enough from raids, with 2 - 4 drops being normal for each daily run of the smaller instances, and up to 6 dropping per run of SotL. Most x4 contested also dropped a master spell.

Dethdlr

05-12-2009, 11:48 AM

We're working our way through this zone. First try was 4 Apr 09 and we took down the first 3 nameds and have been farming them ever since. We recently added Digg to our rotation and have killed him the last two times in there. Now that we have Digg down, we've started on Dayakara, the fire elemental. So far we've gotten him to fifty something percent but then we get overwhelmed by adds (they spawn really, really fast). We tried splitting the DPS with multiple combinations of who was killing adds and who was killing the named:<ul><li> tank only on named, raid on adds</li><li> two DPS on adds, raid on named</li><li>everybody on named, tank grabs everything</li></ul>After trying multiple different strats on this guy, it's looking like this fight is all about DPS with a tad of aggro thrown in (just grabbing the adds as they spawn is what I mean, not that it's hard to keep aggro once you have it). If we had higher DPS, we could just burn down the named while keeping everything on the tank. We got the furthest with this approach but there are just too many adds spawning way too quick. We just didn't seem to have what we needed when we tried him last night.So my question is, for those that have actually killed this guy, what was your raid DPS on this fight? Thanks

Macross_JR

05-12-2009, 12:08 PM

vinere

05-12-2009, 12:16 PM

Yimway

05-12-2009, 12:17 PM

<cite>Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're working our way through this zone. First try was 4 Apr 09 and we took down the first 3 nameds and have been farming them ever since. We recently added Digg to our rotation and have killed him the last two times in there. Now that we have Digg down, we've started on Dayakara, the fire elemental. So far we've gotten him to fifty something percent but then we get overwhelmed by adds (they spawn really, really fast). We tried splitting the DPS with multiple combinations of who was killing adds and who was killing the named:<ul><li> tank only on named, raid on adds</li><li> two DPS on adds, raid on named</li><li>everybody on named, tank grabs everything</li></ul>After trying multiple different strats on this guy, it's looking like this fight is all about DPS with a tad of aggro thrown in (just grabbing the adds as they spawn is what I mean, not that it's hard to keep aggro once you have it). If we had higher DPS, we could just burn down the named while keeping everything on the tank. We got the furthest with this approach but there are just too many adds spawning way too quick. We just didn't seem to have what we needed when we tried him last night.So my question is, for those that have actually killed this guy, what was your raid DPS on this fight? Thanks</blockquote>The following is the most common way we kill it that *should* be viable for your raid force:Group 1 needs to have a good single target tank to fight Dayakara. He'll need 2 good healers with him, this is usually formed up similar to our raid MT group. Guard, temp, defiler, dirge, coercer, swash. You can vary here, but you need a solid tank and heals.Group 2 needs to have a good aoe tank. We use a Pally or a Zerker most commonly. For you guys, your probably going to want 2 healers in that group as well.We place ranged dps on the railing to the stairs on the righthand side as you walk into the room. We place healers at the base of the stairs on the railing on the same side. We place the OT in front of the middle of the stairs.MT tanks Dayakara at the table on the left side by the stairs with mob's back to the ranged dps.At this point, its a BURN BURN BURN fight. All dps on the named and just burn it like mad. You need to push over 30k dps to get it burned down before your OT is overwelmed. The OT is simply getting aggro on the adds as they spawn and keeping them off the healers/dps. He needs fast cures and solid heals, but the detrimental easily does as much or more damage than the auto attack from all the grimlens.Now, alternatively, we've done this with a single tank stacking more dps. A single SK can trivially hold aggro on the named and an infiniate number of adds. So he can just tank the entire encounter while you burn the name down. We've also had success using just a zerker in the same role. The trick here was to place the zerker and dps such that the adds had to funnel past the MT to get to the heals/dps. If you've got an SK, going the single tank method might be best, otherwise read what I posted and adapt.Lastly, remember you can do these mobs out of order. I personally find Dayakara the hardest encounter in the zone since Aiden can be overcome by just making more people place boulders. Others will of course not agree with that statement.

Odys

07-31-2009, 01:36 AM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>So far I appreciate the constructive feedback, I do have a question though.Do you all consider these to be reasonable suggestions and expectations of game play for the FIRST TRASH mobs of a 12 person zone?So far the suggestions are things like having a more "perfect" set of classes - why? we had heals, tanks, a control and dps - why does it have to be a very granular specific flavor of those things? Those are rhetorical for SOE, I know the real answer it is because that "is the way it is right now".Suggestion is pull with CA instead of taunt, ok - I can try that.We were successful the first time, I believe, because we had 2 illys on our first run and they ended up spamming stuns and mezs and all their things they can do. This time 1 Illy and we would wipe in about 3 seconds flat each time.I can accept constructive "L2P" suggestions such as these but I would also like to see SOE either adjust this crazy, stupid zone that is just like KC during Kunark beta OR re-advertise the zone as to the proper gear/level and expectations are needed BEFORE folks should think about trying it.It is my opinion, yes - opinion, that game play that forces granular specific classes as well as potions/insignias/immunities are NOT in-line with past precendents in heroic content or any heroic level previous to this zone AS WELL AS the ONLY other x2 raid zones in the ENTIRE game which are the city guild writ raids which we are masters of and hold most of the server discoveries for all the loot in those raids.We are not bad players or need to "L2P" our classes, we just are NOT raiders in the traditional raiding game. There is NO progression from heroic to raiding and this zone only proves it that much more.The current state of this game is that you have a solo game which is approachable and easy to learn, you then progress to a heroic game which is ALMOST EXACTLY like the solo game but with harder mobs and the requirement to work with other characters to beat down the huge HPs.Then there is this leap to raiding which you then basically have to re-learn how to play the game entirely, nothing is intuitive, you need 6 sets of gear, a bunch of other things like potions and insignias that you never needed before and you now have to start excluding your friends and such because they are not fitting the exact min/max mold needed to take down Mob X in Zone Y but stay close by though since we need to switch to ranged/jousting for the next named around the corner.That unrealistic and unmanageble leap of game design and game play is what I have issue with.The issue is NOT that it exists, I am fine with the raid game being what it is and I am glad that many folks enjoy it.My issue is that SOE advertised this new content x2 size raid zone that they have NOT introduced since the city guild raids which were put in like 4 years ago now. Really 4 YEARS we have been waiting for our next end game content and Ward of Elements was labeled as that for us.Non-mythical and tier 2 void shard armor - check. We have that. We have raided ALL the x2 raid content in this game and MASTERED IT. We are competent heroic content players, we have played most of it and mastered most of it.OUR next step of PROGRESSION in this game is Ward of Elements. That is OUR end game AND it was advertised as such.That is my issue. Keep the rest of the game as is. You enjoy your parts, we are enjoying ours. But don't lie to us that you are finally releasing new endgame content for us and then it just be a 12 person version of the ridiculous raid game we can't and WON'T be a part of.</blockquote>I agree a game that force too much the composition of casual raid is going in the wrong direction. We cleared all WOE but the last monster with a t2 raiding force and no mythical but this was when i was in a wannabee raiding guild. Sure we were efficient in raids but the guild was extremelly unfriendly. In my former casul guild (that i left because some morronic historical co leader came back and stated to suck) we never passed the third boss.The players of my casual guild were probably as good or even better than the ones of the raid. The huge difference in the possibilities of the raid was simply induced by the composition.Is it because nobody knew how to set up a raid in my casual guild ? Not at all, our ideal raiding force was more or less exaclty what the wannabee raider team composition.So basically our casual guild failed because we could not bring a raiding force that would succeed.Raiding is 90% about having the right raid setting (and gear), figuring out strategy and what is the good raid force is trival. The main difficulty is to get the 24 (or 12) classes you wany on-line at a given time. It's almost impossible to achieve in a friendly guild.

Kordran

07-31-2009, 02:32 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The following is the most common way we kill it that *should* be viable for your raid force:Group 1 needs to have a good single target tank to fight Dayakara. He'll need 2 good healers with him, this is usually formed up similar to our raid MT group. Guard, temp, defiler, dirge, coercer, swash. You can vary here, but you need a solid tank and heals.Group 2 needs to have a good aoe tank. We use a Pally or a Zerker most commonly. For you guys, your probably going to want 2 healers in that group as well.We place ranged dps on the railing to the stairs on the righthand side as you walk into the room. We place healers at the base of the stairs on the railing on the same side. We place the OT in front of the middle of the stairs.MT tanks Dayakara at the table on the left side by the stairs with mob's back to the ranged dps.At this point, its a BURN BURN BURN fight. All dps on the named and just burn it like mad. You need to push over 30k dps to get it burned down before your OT is overwelmed. </blockquote>Sounds overly complicated. As a Paladin, I've run WoE a bunch of times as the only tank. For Dayakara, I just pull him to the bridge, turn and burn. Everyone stacks up right behind him, I punch Concescrate and Holy Ground if one of the adds gets out of line. Mob dies, we loot. Next. It's a trivial fight if you have a Crusader tanking.

Kordran

07-31-2009, 02:43 AM

<cite>Filthi@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>or a paly, we cleared it last night with a paly main tank and SK off tank, had 3 healers total inquis,mystic in mt group and warden in off tank group. took about 3 and half hours to clear. illy in off tank group , coercer in MT group and filled the rest out with assasans ,rangers and swashy's for dps</blockquote>Just to point out, if you have either a Paladin or Shadowknight, that's all you really need; an OT group build is completely superfluous, and actually can be detrimental because you're not maximizing your raid DPS. There are no fights in WoE that would require a Crusader to have an off-tank to help him.

josie67

07-31-2009, 04:16 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>80 Guardian with 8870ish constant mitigation, 12700ish constant avoidance and 10,700 ish mitigation for 30 seconds with pull buffs. Fabled Epic, fully adorned, almost fully mastered, full tier 2 void shard armor, full tier 2 void shard jewelry.Everyone was level 80 (of course) - main group had guard, temp, dirge, swash, fury, wizard / second group had conj, illy, wizard, fury, warden, and another class (can't remember - didn't commit it to memory since I didn't know at the time I was going to write this post)</blockquote>Unless that last class was a crusader or bezerker, you have no chance of clearing this zone in your gear with this raid setup. That is your first problem.With the pull in question, both body pulling and pet pulling are asking for trouble. The fact that these are the only two pulls you tried, and the fact that you gave up after 4 pulls, tells me even more than you intended your post to.What you should have done is single target taunt pulled the encounter, telling youra raid to not AE anything for about 6 seconds. 2 seconds after the initial taunt, you hit Reinforcement, wait for the 4 mobs to be in melee range, and then use your 2 (3 if you are of an appropriate race) damage AEs.The fact that you had no shaman is another sevre factor in lack of success. Wards are essential for raids, and Repent just doesn't cut it.This is a raid zone, first and foremost. Don't attempt it in your gear without wards, and don't expect to clear it without a tank that can hold GOOD AE hate.</blockquote>I agree.....the zone is easy enough as it is.

Enoa

08-01-2009, 07:50 PM

<cite>Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're working our way through this zone. First try was 4 Apr 09 and we took down the first 3 nameds and have been farming them ever since. We recently added Digg to our rotation and have killed him the last two times in there. Now that we have Digg down, we've started on Dayakara, the fire elemental. So far we've gotten him to fifty something percent but then we get overwhelmed by adds (they spawn really, really fast). We tried splitting the DPS with multiple combinations of who was killing adds and who was killing the named:<ul><li> tank only on named, raid on adds</li><li> two DPS on adds, raid on named</li><li>everybody on named, tank grabs everything</li></ul>After trying multiple different strats on this guy, it's looking like this fight is all about DPS with a tad of aggro thrown in (just grabbing the adds as they spawn is what I mean, not that it's hard to keep aggro once you have it). If we had higher DPS, we could just burn down the named while keeping everything on the tank. We got the furthest with this approach but there are just too many adds spawning way too quick. We just didn't seem to have what we needed when we tried him last night.So my question is, for those that have actually killed this guy, what was your raid DPS on this fight? Thanks</blockquote>This fight doesn't require high dps or really more than a 2-3 good healers. Now that add spawn number have been nerfed (~ 1 month ago) this fight is extremely trivial. It is easily doable with one tank (I've put warlock on tanking adds several times) but you'll need two tanks for aiden (in case one gets ported) so might as well brign two tanks.You can trivialize the curing and healing by having range dps on named (HINT look at bosses buffs) and melee dps on adds. Tank near one portal and have adds tanked in middle / opposite side. This setup the only person getting the elemental dot is the MT. You can range the elemental aoe at about 10 m. At 30% the adds seem to speed up... have all dps switch to the named and ignore th adds at 30%. Crusader is best on boss (b/c of boss's damage shield) but it really doesn't matter.This is one of about two fights in the whole game that having a warden helps on. But since most wardens seem to forget they have an elemental ward that will absorb 100% of his aoe's and his damage shield they will often need a gentle reminder. Use ACT and if a warden isn't getting a huge heal credit for 'ward of the untamed' feel free to ridicule them for sucking.You can burn/heal/cure through almost any script... but if you're having issues the above is the easiest way to kill him imo. Once you understand how the fight works and kill it you'll no longer thing it need to be 'toned down'.

Kordran

08-01-2009, 08:23 PM

<cite>Enoa@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is easily doable with one tank (I've put warlock on tanking adds several times) but you'll need two tanks for aiden (in case one gets ported) so might as well brign two tanks.</blockquote>Nope. Aiden will not port a player that is at the top of his hate list. Persuming your tank is not out to lunch, he will never get ported to harvest rocks. Two tanks is by no means needed for Aiden.

thial

08-02-2009, 01:10 AM

one tank and omg its a guard<img src="http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr288/p0rn0mike/EQ2_000110.jpg?t=1249186137" width="1024" height="640" />

Dethdlr

08-02-2009, 06:16 AM

<cite>Enoa@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're working our way through this zone. First try was 4 Apr 09 and we took down the first 3 nameds and have been farming them ever since. We recently added Digg to our rotation and have killed him the last two times in there. Now that we have Digg down, we've started on Dayakara, the fire elemental. So far we've gotten him to fifty something percent but then we get overwhelmed by adds (they spawn really, really fast). We tried splitting the DPS with multiple combinations of who was killing adds and who was killing the named:<ul><li> tank only on named, raid on adds</li><li> two DPS on adds, raid on named</li><li>everybody on named, tank grabs everything</li></ul>After trying multiple different strats on this guy, it's looking like this fight is all about DPS with a tad of aggro thrown in (just grabbing the adds as they spawn is what I mean, not that it's hard to keep aggro once you have it). If we had higher DPS, we could just burn down the named while keeping everything on the tank. We got the furthest with this approach but there are just too many adds spawning way too quick. We just didn't seem to have what we needed when we tried him last night.So my question is, for those that have actually killed this guy, what was your raid DPS on this fight? Thanks</blockquote>This fight doesn't require high dps or really more than a 2-3 good healers. Now that add spawn number have been nerfed (~ 1 month ago) this fight is extremely trivial. It is easily doable with one tank (I've put warlock on tanking adds several times) but you'll need two tanks for aiden (in case one gets ported) so might as well brign two tanks.You can trivialize the curing and healing by having range dps on named (HINT look at bosses buffs) and melee dps on adds. Tank near one portal and have adds tanked in middle / opposite side. This setup the only person getting the elemental dot is the MT. You can range the elemental aoe at about 10 m. At 30% the adds seem to speed up... have all dps switch to the named and ignore th adds at 30%. Crusader is best on boss (b/c of boss's damage shield) but it really doesn't matter.This is one of about two fights in the whole game that having a warden helps on. But since most wardens seem to forget they have an elemental ward that will absorb 100% of his aoe's and his damage shield they will often need a gentle reminder. Use ACT and if a warden isn't getting a huge heal credit for 'ward of the untamed' feel free to ridicule them for sucking.You can burn/heal/cure through almost any script... but if you're having issues the above is the easiest way to kill him imo. Once you understand how the fight works and kill it you'll no longer thing it need to be 'toned down'.</blockquote>First off, let me clear something up. *I* was never asking to have this zone 'toned down'. I'm clarifying that since it's kind of an old thread, and my response was the only one quoted. I was just asking what kind of DPS those taking the guy at the time (pre-nerf) were pumping out so we would know what to shoot for. We don't always have the best setup since we run it in guild and don't always have the right classes online. It's kinda fun to see what we can pull off sometimes though. We took Digg one week with 16k dps. lol. We're killing Dayakara regularly now and just started working on Captain Grush but have only had a few pulls on him.As you said, you can burn/heal/cure through almost any script. The downside to that is that you end up with plenty of messages out here on the boards talking about how simple a given encounter is. Usually this is coming from people with a lot of really nice gear who head in there with a good raid setup and just burn through it. It's kind of like playing that carnival game where you knock over the three stacked up milk bottles but instead of throwing baseballs, you use medicine balls.We take a bit of a different approach. We take whoever signs up within the guild and if we have a tank, 3 healers, and some dps, we head in since we can take the first 4 named with that. May even be able to take Dayakara with that now that we've figured him out. We, however, realize that this isn't the optimal setup and aren't asking for things to be toned down just because we're not going in with the right classes. If the zone can be cleared with the target level of gear if you just set up the raid right and get the strat down, it's where it should be. Glad they nerfed Dayakara's adds spawn rate though. lol

feldon30

08-03-2009, 12:25 PM

<cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree a game that force too much the composition of casual raid is going in the wrong direction. We cleared all WOE but the last monster with a t2 raiding force and no mythical but this was when i was in a wannabee raiding guild. Sure we were efficient in raids but the guild was extremelly unfriendly. In my former casul guild (that i left because some morronic historical co leader came back and stated to suck) we never passed the third boss.The players of my casual guild were probably as good or even better than the ones of the raid. The huge difference in the possibilities of the raid was simply induced by the composition.Is it because nobody knew how to set up a raid in my casual guild ? Not at all, our ideal raiding force was more or less exaclty what the wannabee raider team composition.So basically our casual guild failed because we could not bring a raiding force that would succeed.Raiding is 90% about having the right raid setting (and gear), figuring out strategy and what is the good raid force is trival. The main difficulty is to get the 24 (or 12) classes you wany on-line at a given time. It's almost impossible to achieve in a friendly guild.</blockquote>The third named (Khost Alur) has some tricks to it that will help substantially.The Main Tank should be wearing a water breathing item or have a Shaman cast water breathing on the group. That deals with the curse (you start drowning). If every member of the raid is Curing Arcane every 16-18 seconds, then the healers can focus on keeping the Main Tank up.Any Assassin or Ranger in your raid MUST be casting Noxious Enfeeblement as often as it is up and keep it on the mob. That reduces the Crit ability of the mob by 10%. Really, every TSo fight should see Predators constantly casting this.Pull the mob to one of the towers that is illuminated and make sure the tank has their back to one of the pillars so he/she doesn't get knocked across the room out of healer range.Rest is DPS and heal. Any kind of Interrupts that people can cast will help immensely.Personally, I would skip Digg and go straight to Dayakara and see if you can get that down.Have a single target tank keep Dayakara busy in the left alcove, facing away from the raid. Have your highest 2-3 DPS helping the MT kill Dayakara. Adds can get lost under the bridge, so I would not pull her where she stands.Have an AoE tank keep the adds busy in the middle of the room. Have everyone else DPS through an MA. The MA will switch back and forth between Dayakara and the adds. Most tanks can handle up to 3 adds so you can focus more on Dayakara here. At 35%, the MA should focus on killing ALL the adds so there are no adds at all when you get to 30%, this is because Dayakara will start bringing twice as many adds. Everyone burn Miracles and Blessings to increase DPS and burn the adds and occasionally switch to Dayakara to nuke her down. Raid Leader might call 1-2 more DPS to switch from adds to burning down Dayakara.We've killed Dayakara with T2 gear and 175 AAs and almost no Fabled gear (and only 2 mythicals in the raid). Strat > Brute Force.When you have only Legendary gear, then the strat on Digg is very important. Once you are Mythicaled and Fabled, most folks just mow Digg down and don't even really notice much of the strat. If you have Legendary gear then Digg is very frustrating until you learn the exact positioning and retrieving and dropping statues.You want a primary and backup runner for the statues. This is typically bards but doesn't have to be. If someone is especially small in size, they should use a petrified eye to change into a larger race. Smaller races will get stuck between the rocks trying to run up and down the bridges. You should not have to jump to traverse the bridges.Learning Digg is a pain at first. You will die a LOT as you try to DPS when Badger is up (it reflects), and folks not being right on Digg's butt, and folks not being inside the orange dome when the AoE goes off, and folks being rezzed in front of Digg and dying immediately (have dirges, necros, and if need be healers turn their back on Digg before rezzing so the person rezzes BEHIND Digg). Digg's has a 180 degree frontal AoE that goes off all the time.The Main Tank pulls Digg where he stands, carefully turning him a little bit to the left and right by taking a step left or step right depending on which statue runners need. Badger and Mushroom are ok with 1 runner. Snake needs could benefit from 2 runners. At 55%, burn miracles and blessings to crank up the DPS. When Snake is called, everyone should turn on melee autoattack as every hit has a chance to stop his healing. Every Snake drop is vitally important.And one final info, if you have a ranger, then at 55%, they can take a few steps back so they can get all their arrow shots off as long as they are well behind Digg and as long as they get back inside the orange dome before the AoE goes off. That extra 2-5k dps a ranger brings when they are able to use arrows will be enough to push Digg down to 50% and below.Last, at 25% or so, Digg will do some random calls, which might be Badger. Be prepared to stop DPS for this.Obviously voice chat is essential for this fight if you are not geared.

Huntress Jellica

08-03-2009, 02:17 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><stuff>And one final info, if you have a ranger, then at 55%, they can take a few steps back so they can get all their arrow shots off as long as they are well behind Digg and as long as they get back inside the orange dome before the AoE goes off. That extra 2-5k dps a ranger brings when they are able to use arrows will be enough to push Digg down to 50% and below.<stuff></blockquote>All good advice except for this. There is no reason, *none* for the ranger not to be doing this the entire fight. Why should the ranger [Removed for Content] his DPS until Digg switches to the snake? /boggle <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Enoa

08-03-2009, 06:44 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Main Tank pulls Digg where he stands, carefully turning him a little bit to the left and right by taking a step left or step right depending on which statue runners need. Badger and Mushroom are ok with 1 runner. Snake needs 2 runners. At 55%, burn miracles and blessings to crank up the DPS. When Snake is called, everyone should turn on melee autoattack as every hit has a chance to stop his healing. Every Snake drop is vitally important.</blockquote>You dont need two runners for snake.... it wont be up enough for that. Look at buff bar... if the snake buff is fading it's time for the runner to grab another. One runner can and should be able to keep the proc buff up at all times. For the elemental (badger) just have healers turn off melee and spam cure the stun. Everyone esle should still be dps'ing. You can ignore the mushroom but our dirge really enjoys this script for some reason so always grabs them all perfectly.

Enoa

08-03-2009, 06:49 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Enoa@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is easily doable with one tank (I've put warlock on tanking adds several times) but you'll need two tanks for aiden (in case one gets ported) so might as well brign two tanks.</blockquote>Nope. Aiden will not port a player that is at the top of his hate list. Persuming your tank is not out to lunch, he will never get ported to harvest rocks. Two tanks is by no means needed for Aiden.</blockquote>I am pretty sure our tank got ported a few times when we were working this script initially. He was at top of agro list otherwise Aiden wouldn't have followed him over and reset. I suppose someone could have deagro'd it back to him but iirc it happened on several pulls so I just assumed they were possible port targets. I dont recall our MT being ported since we've been farming the zone so you are probably correct. Regardless two tanks makes a couple of the fights more manageable for guilds/ raids struggling with the zone.

Yimway

08-03-2009, 06:56 PM

<cite>Enoa@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the elemental (badger) just have healers turn off melee and spam cure the stun. Everyone esle should still be dps'ing. You can ignore the mushroom but our dirge really enjoys this script for some reason so always grabs them all perfectly. </blockquote>You can ignore mushrooms if you have good healers and enough of them. I've seen the mushroom tick kill some players. I'm not sure that was a reflection of thier gear or the healers ability.All in all, its REALLY, REALLY simple to go pick up the mushroom, in a pug, I will still grab it unless I'm confident of the healers involved.

Maamadex

08-03-2009, 08:15 PM

People could also just use a relic of stability? For the Stun? heh. I carry both a relic and a signet of stability for stuff like that. It works, try it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

mook85az

08-04-2009, 01:04 AM

As a point of reference, we hit 55k dps on the first named last night. It was our second time as a guild in there, though many of our players are well experienced in WoE. Most of the players were decently equipped, usually t2 and fabled or t2/t3 and mythical.There's a new Digg strat I've seen on Crushbone in the last few weeks and it's genius. It makes the hardest part of the fight the pull. Have one player (we've had our tank do it, but anyone can) run up to Digg's island and activate the snake bridge. This takes some careful manuevering but he has less of an aggro range than you think. Then the whole raid stands on the last island by the snake spawner. Digg is tanked on the far part of that island, tank stands on the second one, the raid at the back of the island. The tank pulls dig standing with the rest of the raid, and spins him into the spot described hopefully before the frontal lands. The only cause of wipe we've had doing this was the thank falling off =p This way you don't have to have anyone run to get the snake, just someone moving it when it spawns. The stun phase is easy enough to wait out, and three good healers will get you through the DoT phase. I hadn't hear of using the relic/signet of stability and I'll suggest it next time, that first 20-30% of the fight takes more than half the time.Dayakara we beat our second night through. We couldn't beat it the first time, our predators were absent and we took some underequipped dps. To compare, we did 28k on the first named that night. We got Dayakara down to 25% that first night doing an all out burn and our amazing, truly talented healers allowed us to get that far. The second night, even with the much improved dps we couldn't get her past 15% before being overwhelmed. We tried offtanking the adds with every combo but it didn't work. So we had our two enchanters mez the adds that fight and she went down with only minor hiccups. That dot is pretty nasty, but I'll look into reading the buff on her and seeing if we can mitigate it better.To our surprise we killed Grush after 3 tries. We just did a straight burn not messing with any idols or anything. We had melee joust the aoe (when he flails his arms) and everyone else stand on the lip around the room and tanked him and the adds where he stands. After the first add went down it was trivial to heal and it was just waiting him out like the first part of Digg.We're going to attempt Aiden next time. We only passed because no one on the raid had ever been a rock grabber before and because we were gonna lose a few people to time constraints.

Maamadex

08-04-2009, 05:19 AM

The Signet/Relic just works wonders <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> First thing I tell my guildies before we go is hit up the Relic merchant in the guildhall.

feldon30

08-04-2009, 10:10 AM

<cite>Huntress Jellica wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>And one final info, if you have a ranger, then at 55%, they can take a few steps back so they can get all their arrow shots off as long as they are well behind Digg and as long as they get back inside the orange dome before the AoE goes off. That extra 2-5k dps a ranger brings when they are able to use arrows will be enough to push Digg down to 50% and below.</blockquote>All good advice except for this. There is no reason, *none* for the ranger not to be doing this the entire fight. Why should the ranger [Removed for Content] his DPS until Digg switches to the snake? /boggle <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>We've probably got the positioning sorted enough now that this is possible. When we first started trying, we didn't have sufficient curing and the positioning was not right so I would get one-shotted. This was in a previous guild by the way.

StaticLex

08-07-2009, 11:58 PM

I'm not really interested in reading 40 pages of gum flapping but I would like to say this: The zone is more or less fine but I would like to see Aiden not port (or port no more than one) healers to get boulders. My guild generally blows up the zone with 3 healers (which is plenty) but getting randomly shafted with a wipe because 2 of the 3 get ported is absolutely stupid.That is all.

Macross_JR

08-08-2009, 08:27 AM

I've done this zone before, as my defiler, with only 2 other healers. In fact the first time I was in a raid that beat it we had a Templar, Defiler(me), and an alt Druid. We even did the book room with the 3 healers. The best thing to do is have people running for bolders so you don't have to worry about your healers taking time to pick bolders up.

ThomasCH

08-09-2009, 12:17 PM

Always run it with a Defiler, Templar in the MT group and then a Warden in then second group (DPS). The whole zone is extremly easy these days.Hell, the only thing to die on in there is the stupid AoE, DoT or whatever it is and even that can be ranged easily.EDIT: I will actually take back what I said. Only because it all depends on the people running it and their equipment and skills. I suppose the zone could be hard.

Layl

08-12-2009, 10:51 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact that you had no shaman is another sevre factor in lack of success. Wards are essential for raids, and Repent just doesn't cut it.</blockquote>I've cleared WoE with temp + warden for mt heals and no shaman in raid just fine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Enoe

08-12-2009, 11:11 AM

woe is not hard and doesnt require any special setup as lon as ppl in raid know what they r doing - right now zone is ok compare to loot it drops. Just would like to see 2 x shoulder patterns drop from last named <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Noaani

08-12-2009, 11:44 AM

<cite>Laylle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact that you had no shaman is another sevre factor in lack of success. Wards are essential for raids, and Repent just doesn't cut it.</blockquote>I've cleared WoE with temp + warden for mt heals and no shaman in raid just fine <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Do that with a tank geared up to the point of the raid in question, then come back and say so.Gear can compensate for a whole lot of things.

Layl

08-12-2009, 11:54 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laylle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact that you had no shaman is another sevre factor in lack of success. Wards are essential for raids, and Repent just doesn't cut it.</blockquote>I've cleared WoE with temp + warden for mt heals and no shaman in raid just fine <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Do that with a tank geared up to the point of the raid in question, then come back and say so.Gear can compensate for a whole lot of things.</blockquote>Point. Though, I've also gone about half way through WoW with a T2 tank guard using mystic + warden. (that one only stopped because of drama)

Noaani

08-12-2009, 12:00 PM

<cite>Laylle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laylle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact that you had no shaman is another sevre factor in lack of success. Wards are essential for raids, and Repent just doesn't cut it.</blockquote>I've cleared WoE with temp + warden for mt heals and no shaman in raid just fine <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Do that with a tank geared up to the point of the raid in question, then come back and say so.Gear can compensate for a whole lot of things.</blockquote>Actually, he was.</blockquote>Do me a quick favour...Next time this tank logs on, target him. Then.../point/laugh/t %t Noaani from the official forms told me to point and laugh at you, because you are wearing shard jewelery.Thanks!

Layl

08-12-2009, 12:11 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do me a quick favour...Next time this tank logs on, target him. Then.../point/laugh/t %t Noaani from the official forms told me to point and laugh at you, because you are wearing shard jewelery.Thanks!</blockquote>A person has to start somewhere. My original point being however, the answer isn't always ditching the druid...

Noaani

08-12-2009, 12:14 PM

Somewhere, yes. But starting off the broker is considerably better than starting off the shard merchant for tanking jewelery.

Layl

08-12-2009, 12:24 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Somewhere, yes. But starting off the broker is considerably better than starting off the shard merchant for tanking jewelery.</blockquote>Who said the person was in T2 jewelry? Having said that, some of the Infused jewelry is quite a bit better then the RoK crap on the broker... and a lot of the no-drop jewelry from various instances can be pretty nice. (See the fabled drops off the final encounter in Emperor's Athenaeum, for example: <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Mhere%27s_Dictionary_of_Combat" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Mhere%27s...onary_of_Combat</a> ).

Noaani

08-12-2009, 12:48 PM

You said the tank was geared similar to the tank in the OP. The tank in the OP was averagly geared, but had crap jewelery. There is far better stuff you can buy on the broker and get from easy RoK solo quests. Its defensive stuff, which is exactly what you need when you have no shaman on a raid.

Layl

08-12-2009, 01:07 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>You said the tank was geared similar to the tank in the OP. The tank in the OP was averagly geared, but had crap jewelery. There is far better stuff you can buy on the broker and get from easy RoK solo quests. Its defensive stuff, which is exactly what you need when you have no shaman on a raid.</blockquote>Actually I was replying to your previous remark, "Do that with a tank geared up to the point of the raid in question, then come back and say so." I've done it with a tank 'geared up to that point of the raid in question'... and yes, it went fine.Having SEEN all of the RoK quest gear, some of the infused jewelry IS better. For example, the Stone Tower set is rather decent for defensive gear. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.zam.com/search.html?q=Stone+Tower" target="_blank">http://eq2.zam.com/search.html?q=Stone+Tower</a> . It has a big chunk of HP, a bunch of +parry/+defence, rather nice set bonuses, and a good spread of resists.Speaking of quest gear, the moors quests have quite a few decent items as well.Edit: Mind you... I misunderstood your remark thinking you meant someone, 'geared up from content up to but excluding WoE'. I am not entirely sure what my tank had for jewelry... but his armor was all T2. I was however trying to make the point that buying from the broker doesn't always mean 'better then T2 jewelry'.

Layl

08-12-2009, 01:23 PM

Further Noaani, belittling the OP tank does very little to get your point accross outside of making you look like a jerk. (Unless... of course, that is your point. In which case, good job!).

Noaani

08-12-2009, 01:32 PM

<cite>Laylle wrote:</cite><blockquote>and a good spread of resists.</blockquote>So you have no idea what is and is not good tanking gear.Gotcha.Obviously if you buy caster jewelery from the broker, it won't be as good for a guardian as T2 tanking jewelery. if your smart about it though, you can get better.

Layl

08-12-2009, 01:52 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laylle wrote:</cite><blockquote>and a good spread of resists.</blockquote>So you have no idea what is and is not good tanking gear.Gotcha.Obviously if you buy caster jewelery from the broker, it won't be as good for a guardian as T2 tanking jewelery. if your smart about it though, you can get better.</blockquote>Enlighten me. List all this better jewelry one can find on the broker. Don't forget the PRICES of said items, as the few items that one can find on the broker that actually ARE better tend to cost a fortune. (To someone who obviously isn't in raiding gear, YES price is an issue.)Here, I'll help.Cloaks: <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?server=najena&name=&slot=Cloak&tier=FABLED&tier=LEGENDARY&minsold=&vname=&level=78&level_2=80&price=&price_2=&market=&type=&class=Guardian&stat1=0&statval1=" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?s...0&statval1=</a>Ears: <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?server=najena&name=&slot=Ear&tier=FABLED&tier=LEGENDARY&minsold=&vname=&level=78&level_2=80&price=&price_2=&market=&type=&class=Guardian&stat1=0&statval1=0" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?s...&statval1=0</a>(<a class="legendary icon-float-med" href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=6D8C7DAD07CB2E514EC17609AD437A53"><var></var>Sarnak Earring of Station</a> is 'ok'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Ring: <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?stat1=0&tier=FABLED&tier=LEGENDARY&level=78&statval1=0&server=najena&class=Guardian&slot=Finger&level_2=80&page=1" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?s...2=80&page=1</a>(<a class="legendary icon-float-med" href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=A402DC62D636AB84B34874F478556F83">Malevor Ring of Gnashing</a> is decent, 30p however. OP tank would be better served buying a Master.)You get the idea. Yes resist gear can be found on the broker. No, I do not think loading up in all resist gear makes for a good tank.

Kendayar

08-12-2009, 02:03 PM

<cite>Allurana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm posting because I am terrible at EQ2 and my feelings are hurt and no matter what anyone says, I'm right and you're wrong. As Captain EverQuest, if I cannot clear WoE, then it must be nerfed until I can.First I would like to give the scenario of last night (very briefly) and then i will tell you our set up:My raid of slackers and handcrafted geared players couldn't understand the concept of max range on an enemy's AOE, and all our mages and priests raid melee-specced, so we couldn't beat the trash mobs at the door. Oh, I also forgot to mention that I order all Warlocks, Wizards and Assassins to Rift/Ice Comet/Execute on pull, ensuring they are blowing the mob up before I even swing a sword at it.Now our setup:Guardian in decent tank gear, adorned, fabled epic, t2 armor. But here's where I should hire someone to set my raid groups up for me.I put a Templar, Dirge, Swashbuckler, Wizard and Fury in my MT group because I still think I'm Fallen Gate and have no idea how a MT group is supposed to be formed and completely cannot grasp the concept of Wards and why they are superior to HoTs. What's a Coercer? Psh, I don't need any of those. I already have a Wizard in my MT group.The second group had a Conjuror, Illusionist, Wizard, Fury, Warden and some 6th class but I am confident that 2 druids in the same group is OP heals. Oh lol sorry, I had the Fury DPS specced. It's almost a decent motley crew of a mage group.Everybody in the raid had at least t1/t2 gear and ad3 or better skills.What happened, repeatedly: (the first roaming mob is already dead and not an issue at this point)First pull was a body pull (worked the first time we were here). Guard put on every temp buff they have, get pre-warded, pre-healed etc.... Just a plain body pull since on the first pull we were not sure where the 2nd roamer was on his path.As soon as all 4 mobs were visible and reasonably clear (barely around the corner) of social aggro of the 2nd roamer I was going to try and use any and all taunts I had.But hold on a minute, I decide I'm going to taunt this *social* mob while it is running towards my pull spot, rather than waiting until he's at the pull spot, or a second or two ahead. Wait for him to get to my spot and have autoattack on, that's for weak tanks like Zerkers. I are Guardian. I are bestest tankar in EQ2. So since I can't pull a mob, I decide to let our conjy pet pull. That failed too. Third time, hammer pull. Failed again. Now, i'm still inept at pulling raid encounters, so I have everybody bunch up near me so they can get hit with frontals because I are bestest tankar in EQ2.However, I still decided that killing roamers wasn't worth the time so they came back and wiped me on the next pull, LOL @ Devs putting roamers in WoE.We had no mender bots and the guild disbanded shortly afterwards.This raid is TOO HARD. I have FOUR accounts (Meaning I'm 4 times the EQ2 you are.) We do not have our mythicals, we do not raid every other night, but I'LL BE DAMNED IF WOE TAKES US OUT. We raid last expansion, oops I mean 3 Expansions ago's content green or mentored down, amazingly overgeared for the raids and that's something we brag about. We don't bother with t8 raiding but we figured Hurrr x2 must be EZMODE and if we had any real experience on how to set up proper raid forces with the right classes, we would've cleared some content.SUGGESTIONS:Teach us how to raid with How-To manuals</blockquote>Is what your post should've said.You basically have no raid experience (It's hard to count old content like that as raid experience when it's barely a glorified Heroic zone with a bunch of 80s in shard gear doing zones like Labs or Godking, and both of those are 1-2 grouped now) but you are complaining about not being able to clear current tier content. x2/x4 doesn't really matter. A raid zone is still a raid zone and it should be approached by a raid force and not 2 instance groups slapped together. If anything, the potential for failure in x2 is higher because it's easier for a raid of 24 to carry 1 weak player than 12.That's to be expected. If you're getting mauled on trash mobs in WoE, good luck beating Pawbuster, which is last expansion's content. Next time, try asking what was wrong with your raid - because there's quite a few - instead of whining because you want excuses for your own shortcomings or you're just plain ignorant of your own failings.

feldon30

08-12-2009, 06:05 PM

Gisallo

08-12-2009, 10:51 PM

<cite>Laylle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laylle wrote:</cite><blockquote>and a good spread of resists.</blockquote>So you have no idea what is and is not good tanking gear.Gotcha.Obviously if you buy caster jewelery from the broker, it won't be as good for a guardian as T2 tanking jewelery. if your smart about it though, you can get better.</blockquote>Enlighten me. List all this better jewelry one can find on the broker. Don't forget the PRICES of said items, as the few items that one can find on the broker that actually ARE better tend to cost a fortune. (To someone who obviously isn't in raiding gear, YES price is an issue.)Here, I'll help.Cloaks: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?server=najena&name=&slot=Cloak&tier=FABLED&tier=LEGENDARY&minsold=&vname=&level=78&level_2=80&price=&price_2=&market=&type=&class=Guardian&stat1=0&statval1=" target="_blank">http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?s...0&statval1=</a>Ears: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?server=najena&name=&slot=Ear&tier=FABLED&tier=LEGENDARY&minsold=&vname=&level=78&level_2=80&price=&price_2=&market=&type=&class=Guardian&stat1=0&statval1=0" target="_blank">http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?s...&statval1=0</a>(<a class="legendary icon-float-med" href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=6D8C7DAD07CB2E514EC17609AD437A53"><var></var>Sarnak Earring of Station</a> is 'ok'<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Ring: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?stat1=0&tier=FABLED&tier=LEGENDARY&level=78&statval1=0&server=najena&class=Guardian&slot=Finger&level_2=80&page=1" target="_blank">http://eq2.zam.com/db/broker.html?s...2=80&page=1</a>(<a class="legendary icon-float-med" href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=A402DC62D636AB84B34874F478556F83">Malevor Ring of Gnashing</a> is decent, 30p however. OP tank would be better served buying a Master.)You get the idea. Yes resist gear can be found on the broker. No, I do not think loading up in all resist gear makes for a good tank.</blockquote>I don't think Nooani was only talking about the broker but also shard jewelry, or even crafted jewelry like the one you can have made using the zircon you can get to drop in NHT. Also resist gear can be VERY important if you do not have the right geared and group set ups, it can help to compensate. Would I ever go into NHT with those group set ups? HECK NO. That was half the problem. The other problem to be honest was people just not really knowing how to raid. Not trying to be mean but with group set ups like that, using taunts as your initial target grabber, the iffy gear in some respects and having the idea that running green raid zones means you are suited to doing even a x2 raid zone at level shows a lack of experience.I HOPE that the OP can read through the shall we say less than charitible critiques and realize there is a learning curve even with this zone. SOE NEVER said that it was a zone that ANYONE can just walk into with any groups as long as you had shard armor. It was said to be a zone where groups without full on x4 TSO raid gear and mythicals can go and be relatively successful. This is the case, but one has to remember that it is a RAID zone. As such you need the groups made right AND people who know how and when to push the buttons. If you play by the rules that set the zone it is VERY doable. If you insist that you make the rules, then you fail. I just wonder why people think they can make the rules sometimes. They haven't changed. They were the same in KOS, the same in ROK now the same in TSO, the only difference is TSO has given even people who never raid access to gear that makes the prior raid zones, even many ROK, pretty darn easy. The rules are still there you just have access to the gear that make you THINK they no longer apply. Heck I remember the other night a drunken KOS raid. There is a fight (was indeed lit so can;t remember where) where the Named has adds. Kill the adds and the named heals. That was an SOB in KOS I am told. We merc'd him just burning him and the adds. Does this mean we are uber raiders? heck no. It means we were a bunch of drunks with great gear just burning like Sherman did to Atlanta.