Stonewall Paladin TSO Endline Ability [Archive]

Kahling

04-22-2009, 03:01 PM

Regarding the reuse timers you display.Please note that the stonewall reuse is taking in to account avenging invigoration (end of STR line) and the SK spell is not, SK's get the same crusader tree therefore the reuse will be less than 4 mins, also SK's have a group TSO aa that further decreases reuse, this adds up to approx 20% reduction in reuse, the recast therefore is closer to 3 mins.For comparisons sake just want that to be clear.Regarding the Stonewall spell. The idea behind it is correct me if I am wrong to stop you dying in an ooh "censored word" moment using the skill of the Paladin to know when to cast it. 1 Block does not make much of a difference and timing the block to hit on a mob aoe is too hit and miss. For this spell to work as intended in my opinion and take skill rather than luck it personally needs souping up, more blocks during the 10 seconds or a total stoneskin or a stoneskin for attacks over 25% hitpoints would seem more in keeping with comparisons to other Plate tank tools.RegardsKahling

Brat

04-22-2009, 03:32 PM

I agree with guys. This ability is too weak for paladin TSO end line ability. Its very important to improve it. We complain for a long time of the Stone Wall, but unfortunately there is no response.

Troubor

04-22-2009, 04:21 PM

I'll chime in and agree here. If ANYTHING can be done to improve Stonewall, as long as it doesn't nerf another class I'm all for it. A 10 second duration is a good idea IMO, I'd support that.

Maergoth

04-22-2009, 06:15 PM

Jumping on the boat here. I'm as of right now THE best geared tank in my guild, I've got over 10k mitigation, 80% avoidance and spec'd as defensive as realistically possible. I've got my 6 piece TSO set and am one of the top geared paladins worldwide, short of avatar gear. I make use of every little technique to increase survivability, using my ward every time it's up, forcing spellcast canceling on stonewall and lay hands to be able to use them when they're absolutely needed. Using them perfectly as intended I still ran into a pretty crappy problem: I CAN'T SURVIVE WORTH A [Removed for Content]. I don't know if this is intended, but there's no use holding amazing aggro when you get 3 shotted. Sometimes it's fine.. sometimes I get prewards before having to pick it up, sometimes I get some lucky stoneskins or blocks.. but I have nothing I can solidly lean on, and as much as I'd never go without Divine Aura, it just doesn't cut it most of the time. Just my 20 cents.

Getsum12

04-22-2009, 07:16 PM

It is certainly a terrible shame that i now find it extremly hard to find groups and be the Tank because everyone chooses SK's for their utility / survivability. what were the fighter changes meant to be? how would this have affected Paladins to bring them in line with SK's?regards,

Stonestrong

04-22-2009, 07:44 PM

<cite>Getschamp@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is certainly a terrible shame that i now find it extremly hard to find groups and be the Tank because everyone chooses SK's for their utility / survivability. what were the fighter changes meant to be? how would this have affected Paladins to bring them in line with SK's?regards,</blockquote>Well we were going to get a better Divine Favor through the fighter changes, but being that they have rolled that back it's not very relevant. Even if they still plan to rework those changes for the future there is no reason we should have to wait that long to get our Stonewall improved.Currently Shadowknights have every AA ability in the Crusader tree available to them and a much, much, better TSO Tree for themselves. That's fine with me and I have no complaints with that but they need to seriously recognize how far behind the Paladin class is at a base level. I'm not including gear or player skill here, just raw mechanics of the classes and their abilities.BUFF STONEWALL IN 09!!!!

Maamadex

04-24-2009, 03:44 PM

I don't see how anyone could look at Stonewall and think its worth the AA to get to it. I mean, its pretty blatant how lame it is. I agree with Stonestrong's post. I've despised the thing ever since I first laid eyes on it, I didn't need to see Furor as an example heh.

Brat

04-28-2009, 02:58 AM

/BumpThis ability should be improved, you only think that final ability of a guard in EoF tree >>> than paladin TSO endline ability, which requires 182 AA+. Paladins have no any anti-spike ability, and ability which costs large quantity of AAs, cant save a life of a paladin during fight =/I cant understand such attitude toward paladins. Sk have 2 bloodletters, they heal themself with every ability and have nice passive heal/dmg buff, they have increase of unconscious health of caster by ~ 2.5k, group cast/recast buff (which also reduces time of their reuse anti-spike abilities), also they have ability which drain mitigation from encounter members and increases mitigation of caster by 384 from every(!) mob in encounter and finally they have an enormous quantity of anti-spike abilities. Btw, the most ridiculous, that even final ability in EoF tree of Shadow knights >>> than our Stone Wall, its really funny, their EoF ability has identical time of a reuse, but also inflicts aoe dmg, increases aoe aggro and heals caster, great.

tiger911

04-28-2009, 06:50 PM

I have to say, I rarely have seen Stonewall help. There's times where I've seen it block a 51 melee attack and then I get hammered by a 10k melee attack. This is a stoneskin that I cast sometimes and just hope that it blocks a decent attack, but it does not feel like an endline spell.I completely agree with everyone else that this should be changed to a 10 second stoneskin. Maybe increase the timer to 2-3 minutes but make it worthwhile rather than just having us cast it randomly when it's up hoping that it would save us.Or change it completely, I rather have something worthwhile than a 1 hit stoneskin that I grinded through AAs to get. Give me another dps spell or a group/raid buff (melee crit/double attack, etc).

Brat

04-28-2009, 07:48 PM

<cite>Tyger@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's times where I've seen it block a 51 melee attack and then I get hammered by a 10k melee attack.</blockquote>True story.

Brat

04-28-2009, 07:55 PM

Also Stone Wall should be changed before new fighters revamp. B/c we most likely will not see it before new game expansion. Atm its the main problem of all paladins, which dont leave to a paladin chances to survive after few powerful hits.

Stonestrong

04-28-2009, 08:09 PM

There is no reason for us to have to wait. This is a "TSO" AA ability. TSO is half way over! Why should we need to wait for a fighter revamp to see this brought up to speed? I think giving the devs 6 months of time to get it right is more than enough. You don't have to do everything as a consolidated "fighter change". Individual things can be looked at and changed on their own, this is a perfect example of this.FIX STONEWALL IN 09!

Brat

04-28-2009, 08:30 PM

Dude, I completely with you agree.

Brat

04-30-2009, 08:11 PM

Up to the topic.

Steve11418

04-30-2009, 11:04 PM

Average damage reduction with TSO end line abilities. This does not take into account other bonus some class get above damage reduction. Off particular note the Paladin is the only class that has a restriction “If Shield equipped in Secondary”3min fight (Average fight)5.5K Paladin11K Guardian16KBerserker33K Monk33K Bruiser41.25K Shadow Knight4min fight (Most advantage time for Pally, Guard and Berserker11K Paladin22K Guardian32K Berserker33K Monk33K Bruiser41.25K Shadow Knight5min (Most Advantage time for Monk Bruiser and Shadow knight)11K Paladin22K Guardian32K Berserker66K Monk66K Bruiser82.5K Shadow KnightAssumptions for 4min fight… 3 and 5 min fights extrapolated:Tank has 20k HPFight lasts 4minFor 20 sec the Mob Hits the tank every 2 sec with the following hits 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 making the average damage per second 2.75k. Average hit 5.5kBerserker - Will absorb physical attacks when the amount is greater than 30% of the target's maximum health. This spell will absorb a total of 2 attacks. Duration 10 sec, Recast 3 minBerserker will reduce damage by between 12 and 20k for an average damage reduction of 16k and can use the ability twice resulting in 32KGuardian - Caster will Dodge 20% of incoming attacks, Increases Reuse Speed of caster by 40%, increases Casting Speed of caster by 40%, Duration 20 sec, Recast 3 minGuardian will reduce damage (based on the average) results in an 11k reduction and can use the ability twice resulting in 22kBrawler - Allows caster to deflect all melee attacks ,Inceases the base amount of taunts by 25% Duration 12 sec, Recast 2min 30secBrawler can use the ability once saving an average of 33k.Monk - Caster will Dodge 50% of incoming attacks, Caster will Parry 50% of incoming attacks, Increases Deflection Chance of caster by 100, Duration 12 Sec, Recast 4 minMonk can use the ability once parrying 16.5k and dodging 16.5k resulting in 33kPaladin - Allows caster to block all melee attacks. Dispelled when target successfully blocks an attack If Shield equipped in Secondary, Duration 10 sec, Recast 2 minPaladin can use the ability twice blocking 5.5k each time resulting in 11kShadow Knight - Caster will Riposte 100% of incoming frontal attacks. Attacks from the other quadrants have the same chance of being Parried, Improves spell damage by 20%, On any successful attack this spell will cast Shadowknight's Furor on target of attack, Increases Threat to target by 1,476 - 2,214, Prevents caster from being Interrupted, Duration 15sec, Recast 4 minShadowknight can use this ability once resulting in 41.25k reduced damage.

Brat

05-01-2009, 12:06 AM

Nice post, man. Its necessary to add that other fighters have 2-3 anti-spike abilities not in TSO tree, in that time as a paladin has no any own anti-spike ability. I dont consider Divine Aura, b/c shadow knights have it too.Fix Stone Wall in 09!

Brat

05-01-2009, 12:16 AM

We complain because all classes, except a paladin have ability to survive after several powerful hits, and we have no. All classes except a paladin have 2-3 anti-spake abilities, we have 0. Im assured that nobody will say that the Stone Wall - good anti-spike ability. All know that it never saves a life. And it should be improved.

Brat

05-01-2009, 12:23 AM

And all fighters have an own Stone Wall from their EoF tree, even better. Their ability has 60s recast time, except shadow knights, their ability has recast time like our Stone Wall, but it also heals caster, inflicts aoe damage and increases aoe aggro.

Jaale

05-01-2009, 07:37 PM

I'll be honest.. after reading some of these posts (notably the one a couple of posts above) I do have to wonder if the Dev's as a whole were some how taken in by a hypnotist with a grudge against Pally's and made to be as sadistic as possible to them.It's hard to understand how this is possible to go on without even any sort of nod to say it's been seen and being looked into.Pally's are definately 6th class citizens in the tank world.

Brat

05-02-2009, 03:33 AM

I think that we never will know an official answer. The best decision of problems is not to pay to them attention...

Brat

05-02-2009, 03:46 AM

In last game expansions (EoF, RoK) we had on ~10% more block shield chance than other fighters, therefore I could understand that we dont have an anti-spike ability (abilities). But now our block shield chance doesnt differ from competitors, its time to think of improvement of Stone Wall.Fix Stone Wall in 09!

Brat

05-03-2009, 02:57 PM

Once more up. Fix this stupid ability.Fix Stone Wall in 09!

Kaalenarc

05-04-2009, 01:03 AM

Have to chime in here - im finally one aa point away from buying my endline aa only to discover this. Ugh - needs vast improvement!

Stonestrong

05-04-2009, 07:35 AM

Been almost 2 weeks and 2 private messages so far. Would love some official feedback or at the very least some acknowledgement on this thread.I would even be happy with the old "we will look into it" just to know you read the thread.........FIX STONEWALL IN 09!

Brat

05-04-2009, 09:03 AM

Yeah, it would be great, I think we have deserved an official answer. To be honest, I dont understand why during testing of TSO, final abilities of berserker and shadow knight in EoF tree have been reworked in anti-spike abilities which besides excel anti-spike ability from paladin TSO tree. Im quiet about that a not one final ability in paladin EoF tree, for example archeal, wasnt reworked in something useful. But we dont complain about archeal or our EoF tree, we complain about ability which costs a large quantity of AAs and called final ability in paladin TSO tree, but in reality this ability doesnt even cost one point.Fix Stone Wall in 09!

Lionel

05-04-2009, 11:49 AM

Im realatively new to the paladin class, or even just fighters in general, and even i can see that paly's have got the short end of the stick here, it just doesnt make sense as to why we have this ability which is so far from being as effective as other fighter classes endlines its silly.Fix Stone Wall in 09!

Hazumonai

05-04-2009, 04:36 PM

This ability should be necessarily improved. If it was given for certain level anybody wouldnt complain, and considering that it costs many achievement points, quality of ability should be much higher. Aeralik, cease to ignore this topis please. Ready to argue, that you read it, but dont want to answer something. I think its not difficult to improve that requires it. Im sure also, that you will agree that quality of this ability is very low.

Sinvaryen_1

05-04-2009, 07:35 PM

I agree, Stonewall could use some improvements.

Steve11418

05-04-2009, 09:19 PM

Stonewall - Caster will Block 30% of incoming attacks, Increases Reuse Speed of caster by 40%, increases Casting Speed of caster by 40%, Duration 20 sec, Recast 3 minThen up the Guardian ability to Dodge 30% to match.As per my previous most that would bring Paladins and Guardians in line with Berserkers and Brawlers.

Brat

05-04-2009, 09:37 PM

Or blocks one attack and then wards caster against 5000-6000 points of all damage.

Stonestrong

05-05-2009, 03:29 AM

<cite>Steve11418 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stonewall - Caster will Block 30% of incoming attacks, Increases Reuse Speed of caster by 40%, increases Casting Speed of caster by 40%, Duration 20 sec, Recast 3 minThen up the Guardian ability to Dodge 30% to match.As per my previous most that would bring Paladins and Guardians in line with Berserkers and Brawlers.</blockquote>This is a terrible idea.We need a more defensive minded ability not something that focuses on Cast speed, reuse, and duration.Keep it 10 seconds, make it block all attacks. Raise the recast up to around 2-3 minutes and keep it an instant cast. Also make it so that we can cast it stunned/stfiled and on the move........Stone

Steve11418

05-05-2009, 03:58 AM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Steve11418 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stonewall - Caster will Block 30% of incoming attacks, Increases Reuse Speed of caster by 40%, increases Casting Speed of caster by 40%, Duration 20 sec, Recast 3 minThen up the Guardian ability to Dodge 30% to match.As per my previous most that would bring Paladins and Guardians in line with Berserkers and Brawlers.</blockquote>This is a terrible idea.We need a more defensive minded ability not something that focuses on Cast speed, reuse, and duration.Keep it 10 seconds, make it block all attacks. Raise the recast up to around 2-3 minutes and keep it an instant cast. Also make it so that we can cast it stunned/stfiled and on the move........Stone</blockquote>Whats not defensive about +30% block and having all our heals back up? or dont you heal yourself?Your suggestion (Stonestrong) is easy mode IMO, 10 sec immunity would be way out of line with the other fighters (as is the SK 15sec one); in my previous posts example absorbing 55k as opposed to other tanks mitigating circa 30k with their abilities.Brats suggestion IMO is probably a little under powered (using previous example again) Mitigating circa 20k of damage…. But I like the direction.Surely everyone can agree that the SK ability is over the top. We should be looking for somthing that is parity with the other tanks and NOT game breaking.

deBussi

05-05-2009, 04:14 AM

Dear developers and pallies community!I have finally read all the ideas and wishes about the possible stone wall changes. At the moment, as i think, pally has the best permanent survivability amoung all plate tanks (thanks to class weapon, good HP amount + regenerating ward from TSO AA, great mitigation increase with 6 set pieces and perfect possibility for self healing) all that allows to keep a paladin in green-yellow hp almost all the time. But some times every tank faces sitiations when hp drops to a critical amount and tank needs to do something to prevent his death. For some critical situations we have:1. final ability in endurance KOS AA line for 10 seconds (here i would like to draw your attention to the folowing aspect - of course good geared palladin with all hp buffs will not take any damage exceeding 50% his hp becouse mobs do not hit him so hard, but a pally who plays in an avarege geared raid and who is trying to fight end-game content mobs will take damage and will not take any benefit by using this ability, that means that this ability becomes useless in this case)2. TSO gave a new ability to paladins - stone wall. As far as i understand this ability was given for paladins to give them an extra possibility to survive in critical situations in TSO realities. but the problem is that usefulness of this ability is very strange - very long recast time and absorbtion of only 1 piece of incoming damage. As a result this ability is used to prevent just mortial damage and leaves pally wondering whether healers return him to normal hp or he will die (for example palladin got damage from mob's AE or dot ability and at the same moment got autoatack hit and mob's next hit and next ability in coming in few seconds and one of healers is dead, afk, linedeaded) and in such situation pally do not have any controll over the situation! but other plate tanks have!3.and our last line of defence - fixed divine favor ability which allows them to avoid death and heals paladins for 40% then they take mortial damage(40% with 4-set bonus). good and very useful ability. There is nothing to comment, just thanks to the developers team who made a very good work and showed us that they are in touch with EQ-gamers community and paladins in particular. In a conclusion i would like to say that there are 4 plate tanks and each class should have its individuality with advantages and disadvantages. And the class abilities should be given to them accrording to possibility to tank(survive incoming damage and control agro)Pallies now do not have a good ability to prevent their death in a critical sitiation! But other plate tanks do have and this aspect gives them a great advantage! As to my mind the idea of stone wall is very good but there is a necessity to change it. for exaple to reduce the reuse timer and give the absorbtion of 2-3 attacks.Thanks for Your attention!...and fix the stone wall in 09! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Brat

05-05-2009, 05:09 AM

<cite>deBussi wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the moment, as i think, pally has the best permanent survivability amoung all plate tanks (thanks to class weapon, good HP amount + regenerating ward from TSO AA, great mitigation increase with 6 set pieces and perfect possibility for self healing) all that allows to keep a paladin in green-yellow hp almost all the time.</blockquote>Its obvious that shadow knights have much more permanent survivability b/c of two bloodletters, lifetaps which of course not so good as our direct heals abilities, but considering that each combat art/spell of a shadow knight has a lifetap component, in the sum their lifetaps are more effective than our heals abilities. Also they have more hp b/c of their EoF tree, final ability in which increases unconscious health of caster by 2348. Our mitigation is approximately equal, b/c they are able to drain mitigation from encounter. And they have a large quantity of anti-spike abilities, while we have the block of one attack which costs 182 AA.Fix Stone Wall in 09!

Brat

05-05-2009, 05:25 AM

<cite>Steve11418 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Whats not defensive about +30% block and having all our heals back up? or dont you heal yourself?Your suggestion (Stonestrong) is easy mode IMO, 10 sec immunity would be way out of line with the other fighters (as is the SK 15sec one); in my previous posts example absorbing 55k as opposed to other tanks mitigating circa 30k with their abilities.Brats suggestion IMO is probably a little under powered (using previous example again) Mitigating circa 20k of damage…. But I like the direction.Surely everyone can agree that the SK ability is over the top. We should be looking for somthing that is parity with the other tanks and NOT game breaking.</blockquote>I agree with Stone. We should have ability which immediately(!) will stop a damage on us and your suggestion abandons us too much chances to die after pressing it. But if a little bit to correct, it could turn out very decently.

Viotal

05-05-2009, 06:23 AM

I absolutely agree with all in this topic. Stone Wall should be improved. Cease to ignore our community!!!!!!! Fix Stone Wall in 09!

Stonestrong

05-05-2009, 08:00 AM

<cite>Steve11418 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Steve11418 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stonewall - Caster will Block 30% of incoming attacks, Increases Reuse Speed of caster by 40%, increases Casting Speed of caster by 40%, Duration 20 sec, Recast 3 minThen up the Guardian ability to Dodge 30% to match.As per my previous most that would bring Paladins and Guardians in line with Berserkers and Brawlers.</blockquote>This is a terrible idea.We need a more defensive minded ability not something that focuses on Cast speed, reuse, and duration.Keep it 10 seconds, make it block all attacks. Raise the recast up to around 2-3 minutes and keep it an instant cast. Also make it so that we can cast it stunned/stfiled and on the move........Stone</blockquote>Whats not defensive about +30% block and having all our heals back up? or dont you heal yourself?Your suggestion (Stonestrong) is easy mode IMO, 10 sec immunity would be way out of line with the other fighters (as is the SK 15sec one); in my previous posts example absorbing 55k as opposed to other tanks mitigating circa 30k with their abilities.Brats suggestion IMO is probably a little under powered (using previous example again) Mitigating circa 20k of damage…. But I like the direction.Surely everyone can agree that the SK ability is over the top. We should be looking for somthing that is parity with the other tanks and NOT game breaking.</blockquote>Because +30% Block isn't an effective "save". And refreshing heals isn't either. That would be more of a temp buff to help you live till a mob gets debuffed or something, but it surely would not save you from death. And for you to say other fighters don't have abilities in line with what i have suggested, do you even play this game? As far as questioning how i play my toon I can promise you I am tanking things that hit much harder and put out way more damage than anything you come close to thinking about tanking. The raiding paladin needs an effective stoneskin type ability. Divine Aura is just not enough with mobs critting. How do I know this? Cause I have tanked or off tanked every named raid mob in TSO(including contested). I have a pretty good idea where the class stands and what it needs on a raiding level. Please enlighten me on your extensive testing or experiences this expansion, I'm all ears.I'm sorry your idea is terrible and you are completely wrong. Feel free to debate this with me and post whatever you think in the thread, that is why I made it.

Brat

05-05-2009, 08:39 AM

Stone you are right. Even Pentaclypse with three killed adds, hits through Divine Aura.

Kiljoi

05-05-2009, 11:54 AM

Buff stonewall 09!!!1 block is not sufficient to help us manage the spike damage.Blocking all attacks for the 10s would be worthy of the paladin aa tso endline.PS - Divine Aura needs scaling.. dont believe our hp has scaled with mobs attacks.PSS - Remove the ridiculously long stun to our deathsave, divine favor.

Kaalenarc

05-05-2009, 12:33 PM

Got this ability last night and tried it out a few times. Incredibly disapointing.

Lionnhart

05-05-2009, 12:57 PM

Well..... when looking at the 2 abilities, it seems that SoE wanted to give pallies something with a quicker reuse timer so it could be used more often (more suitable to what SoE wants pallies to be.... single target tanks). SW could potentially be used 4,5 times in a 5 min fight compared to once every 4-5min by an sk.The idea is good, but the fact the the SW ability to block 1 hit, regardless of how much damage is rediculous.a good start could be to prevent the next hit which would be > than 50% of your hp etc.... etc...but yeah, current SW is horrid

Sinvaryen_1

05-05-2009, 03:27 PM

<cite>Lionnhart wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well..... when looking at the 2 abilities, it seems that SoE wanted to give pallies something with a quicker reuse timer so it could be used more often (more suitable to what SoE wants pallies to be.... single target tanks). SW could potentially be used 4,5 times in a 5 min fight compared to once every 4-5min by an sk.The idea is good, but the fact the the SW ability to block 1 hit, regardless of how much damage is rediculous.a good start could be to prevent the next hit which would be > than 50% of your hp etc.... etc...but yeah, current SW is horrid</blockquote>I agree. The flaw in this logic is that 4-5 times per 5 minute fight is great; but it's only one hit avoided and I need more than that now, not over the span of 4-5 minutes. Short term burst survivability is what we need. Stonewall is the only stoneskin we have and for an end line ability it should be much better.

Steve11418

05-05-2009, 08:02 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because +30% Block isn't an effective "save". And refreshing heals isn't either. That would be more of a temp buff to help you live till a mob gets debuffed or something, but it surely would not save you from death. And for you to say other fighters don't have abilities in line with what i have suggested, do you even play this game? Yes I play the game Stone… no need for that kind of comment. I was comparing it directly to the other tanks end line AA’s sorry if I did not make it clear.As far as questioning how i play my toon I can promise you I am tanking things that hit much harder and put out way more damage than anything you come close to thinking about tanking. The raiding paladin needs an effective stoneskin type ability. Divine Aura is just not enough with mobs critting. How do I know this? Cause I have tanked or off tanked every named raid mob in TSO(including contested). I have a pretty good idea where the class stands and what it needs on a raiding level. Please enlighten me on your extensive testing or experiences this expansion, I'm all ears.Sorry Stone I was not questioning the way you play or your ability…. Many pally don’t bother to heal themselves and would gain little benefit from recast. How about you put the “tape measure” away and keep this a constructive thread with real data.I'm sorry your idea is terrible and you are completely wrong. Feel free to debate this with me and post whatever you think in the thread, that is why I made it.</blockquote>From my perspective Stonewall should be fixed because it is not in line with any of the other 5 tanks abilities providing much less survivability / damage prevention.The issue of being one shotted and needing another death prevention is separate.I have 3 healers with death prevention and a brawler with ultraism… add to that divine favour (and as a team) my raid has 5 death preventions on me. 6 if you count god powers.If I need more than that either I am (my raid) under geared, not following the script or the mob is broken.But as you say Paladins have tanked every Mob in the game. I don’t want to get to “your” level Stone because it was made easier for me allowing me to ignore scripts with 100% 10 sec damage nullifying abilities making up for my raids lack of skill.

Vain

05-05-2009, 08:52 PM

Fix it. Even if it deals some gear damage to our shield (as per ToS), because the shield has to be equipped. It needs to be more significant than one block. As for the post above, this has nothing to do with ignoring scripts via upgrading an ability - it simply reduces the amount that the RNG affects the outcome of an encounter when crits DA, etc... That and the fact that Divine Favour is still not as useful as it should be.

Steve11418

05-05-2009, 09:11 PM

I personally like the Brat's idea of block and ward.“The paladin blocks the next significant incoming attack with such righteous force that a divine stonewall is create preventing additional damage to the paladin”Duration 10 SecBlocks 1 hit if damage is grater than 33%Wards caster for 8,000 points.Recast 2 min (same as before)I think this is more in line with the other tanks abilities and provides the immediate damage prevention high-end paladins need?Maybe make it a groups ward? not sure if I like that idea or not just throwing it out.

Salarionn

05-06-2009, 12:33 AM

<cite></cite><cite>double post sorry</cite>

Salarionn

05-06-2009, 12:43 AM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason for us to have to wait. This is a "TSO" AA ability. TSO is half way over! Why should we need to wait for a fighter revamp to see this brought up to speed? I think giving the devs 6 months of time to get it right is more than enough. You don't have to do everything as a consolidated "fighter change". Individual things can be looked at and changed on their own, this is a perfect example of this.FIX STONEWALL IN 09!</blockquote> Wow, nice thread sir!!!! Can you please post for the Guardians to get some of the DPS back they took from us? I mean they did fighter change 1 which nerfed Warrior DPS ( THEY TOOK MY SHIZ ) and gave the Guards nothing in return. I know the Zerkers got some of it back in the way of CA/buffs, but they did zero for us. You can say i see Guards doing 12-14k DPS ( AVATAR GEARED) what are you talking about? Having to DW to put out more then 5k DPS on single target mobs is pretty weak compared to our Cruisader brothers ( or any other fighter for that matter). While i know Paladins got some pretty substantial increases, i also know they fall short in the defensive area. We all are lacking in some area/areas ( Unless you're an SK ), we should all go against SOE as a whole not just a certain class. They need to finish what they started and stop BSing us all with this string them along fighter change 2 gossip and rumors. DO YOUR JOBS, ITS ONLY 6 MONTHS INTO THE EXPANSION, HOW DARE WE EXPECT AN END RESULT ALREADY?!?!?!?!!?

Stonestrong

05-06-2009, 01:14 AM

<cite>Steve11418 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because +30% Block isn't an effective "save". And refreshing heals isn't either. That would be more of a temp buff to help you live till a mob gets debuffed or something, but it surely would not save you from death. And for you to say other fighters don't have abilities in line with what i have suggested, do you even play this game? Yes I play the game Stone… no need for that kind of comment. I was comparing it directly to the other tanks end line AA’s sorry if I did not make it clear.As far as questioning how i play my toon I can promise you I am tanking things that hit much harder and put out way more damage than anything you come close to thinking about tanking. The raiding paladin needs an effective stoneskin type ability. Divine Aura is just not enough with mobs critting. How do I know this? Cause I have tanked or off tanked every named raid mob in TSO(including contested). I have a pretty good idea where the class stands and what it needs on a raiding level. Please enlighten me on your extensive testing or experiences this expansion, I'm all ears.Sorry Stone I was not questioning the way you play or your ability…. Many pally don’t bother to heal themselves and would gain little benefit from recast. How about you put the “tape measure” away and keep this a constructive thread with real data.I'm sorry your idea is terrible and you are completely wrong. Feel free to debate this with me and post whatever you think in the thread, that is why I made it.</blockquote>From my perspective Stonewall should be fixed because it is not in line with any of the other 5 tanks abilities providing much less survivability / damage prevention.The issue of being one shotted and needing another death prevention is separate.I have 3 healers with death prevention and a brawler with ultraism… add to that divine favour (and as a team) my raid has 5 death preventions on me. 6 if you count god powers.Everyone doesn't raid with 3 healers in their group for deathsaves. Alot of fights require enough dps to be successfull and raiding with 12 priests doesn't cut it. Regardless of all the things you said we need to have OUR OWN ability to help us counter huge spike damage without dying. IIf I need more than that either I am (my raid) under geared, not following the script or the mob is broken.Actually you are completely wrong here. I'm sure you don't have a problem raiding the 1st couple names in Tombs and such but that is a far cry from making your point or making you right. My raid force is geared out and fighting end game content and this is where my suggestion come though. But as you say Paladins have tanked every Mob in the game. I don’t want to get to “your” level Stone because it was made easier for me allowing me to ignore scripts with 100% 10 sec damage nullifying abilities making up for my raids lack of skill.If you want to associate me asking for us to have a better stoneskin ability as me or my raid force not being skilled then you are pretty delusional. I play my character to the absolute limits of what the class has to offer and I think my guild's kill speak for themselves as to the competence of Strike.</blockquote>The bottom line is that improving this skill to what I have suggested will not hinder anyone but it has the potential to help everyone. Just because you personally do not think it is needed or you don't like the manner in which people suggested it be doesn't invalidate it. You are the sole person out of everyone that has posted that has your stance, the majority agree with me. So either I'm right or you are wrong as per the consensus of the paladin community. You tell me which it is.

Steve11418

05-06-2009, 03:29 AM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Steve11418 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because +30% Block isn't an effective "save". And refreshing heals isn't either. That would be more of a temp buff to help you live till a mob gets debuffed or something, but it surely would not save you from death. And for you to say other fighters don't have abilities in line with what i have suggested, do you even play this game? Yes I play the game Stone… no need for that kind of comment. I was comparing it directly to the other tanks end line AA’s sorry if I did not make it clear.As far as questioning how i play my toon I can promise you I am tanking things that hit much harder and put out way more damage than anything you come close to thinking about tanking. The raiding paladin needs an effective stoneskin type ability. Divine Aura is just not enough with mobs critting. How do I know this? Cause I have tanked or off tanked every named raid mob in TSO(including contested). I have a pretty good idea where the class stands and what it needs on a raiding level. Please enlighten me on your extensive testing or experiences this expansion, I'm all ears.Sorry Stone I was not questioning the way you play or your ability…. Many pally don’t bother to heal themselves and would gain little benefit from recast. How about you put the “tape measure” away and keep this a constructive thread with real data.I'm sorry your idea is terrible and you are completely wrong. Feel free to debate this with me and post whatever you think in the thread, that is why I made it.</blockquote>From my perspective Stonewall should be fixed because it is not in line with any of the other 5 tanks abilities providing much less survivability / damage prevention.The issue of being one shotted and needing another death prevention is separate.I have 3 healers with death prevention and a brawler with ultraism… add to that divine favour (and as a team) my raid has 5 death preventions on me. 6 if you count god powers.Everyone doesn't raid with 3 healers in their group for deathsaves. Alot of fights require enough dps to be successfull and raiding with 12 priests doesn't cut it. Regardless of all the things you said we need to have OUR OWN ability to help us counter huge spike damage without dying. IIf I need more than that either I am (my raid) under geared, not following the script or the mob is broken.Actually you are completely wrong here. I'm sure you don't have a problem raiding the 1st couple names in Tombs and such but that is a far cry from making your point or making you right. My raid force is geared out and fighting end game content and this is where my suggestion come though. But as you say Paladins have tanked every Mob in the game. I don’t want to get to “your” level Stone because it was made easier for me allowing me to ignore scripts with 100% 10 sec damage nullifying abilities making up for my raids lack of skill.If you want to associate me asking for us to have a better stoneskin ability as me or my raid force not being skilled then you are pretty delusional. I play my character to the absolute limits of what the class has to offer and I think my guild's kill speak for themselves as to the competence of Strike.</blockquote>The bottom line is that improving this skill to what I have suggested will not hinder anyone but it has the potential to help everyone. Just because you personally do not think it is needed or you don't like the manner in which people suggested it be doesn't invalidate it. You are the sole person out of everyone that has posted that has your stance, the majority agree with me. So either I'm right or you are wrong as per the consensus of the paladin community. You tell me which it is.</blockquote>Seriously Stone I don’t know why you seem to be trying to pick a fight?Please re read… I believe I was complementing your skill level and raid force? By saying I want to achieve “Your” level with the same toolset as you? I am by no means suggesting that my raid force is on par with strike /bogglesFYI, I am the Main Tank (don’t OT) I roll with between 7-8 healers (mostly 7 with 3 in MT group for named we are working on) and past the first 2 named in TOMC but thanks for asking.And even more seriously… I have in no way disagreed with you… but only supported you with “facts” that stonewall needs to be upgraded (see page 2 of this very thread). It is by FAR the weakest end line ability and a disgrace.You rubbish my suggestions that’s fine your entitled to your opinion. (Brats is far better than mine anyway)I am also not rubbishing yours… what I am trying to point out is that your suggestion (on paper mathematically) is better than the Guardian, Berserker, Bruiser and Monk end line abilities by almost a factor of 2.In either case I am done here. (12 healers indeed)Good luck to you sir. (I truly hope you succeed in at getting this ability change and hope that any “overreaching” does not cause SOE to dismiss this request)

Stonestrong

05-06-2009, 04:16 AM

That is fine sir, I have no issues with you other than I disagree that you think we are over reaching. From my own personal experience playing I honestly feel we need/deserve an abiliity more inline with some of the other fighter's skills, regardless if it is someting new to them from TSO or an older ability.The raiding paladin population is rapidly declining due to the potential of the shadowknight's current ability. Those of us left need to have the proper tools to effectivly perform. Stonewall as a TSO endline ability is far to inferior to what our counterparts get. Now if you think Furor is just way too op then thats a different debate for a different thread. All we are asking for is to have our skill improved, not theirs changed.BUFF STONEWALL IN 09!

NANEEJE

05-06-2009, 12:44 PM

ZOMG!!! i found a great use for stonewall, its not as bad as we think it is. I was leveling up my alt, see, in Timorous deep, and we got hit by this mob that took half of his level 7 health. So.. the next time i hit that mob, i used intercede, then stonewall, and when the aoe hit, i absorbed ALL of the damage. Dude... it rocks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Fix Stonewall in '09, In line with Stonestrong's plan, giving sk's more dps, more absorbtion, more riposte, and then furor on top of that, doesn't bother me one bit, I'm happy for them. But to turn around and give us this garbage. At least.. please.. tell us what you had intended this for, because using it on a main tank on a pull, with intercede is the only pathetic use i can find for it. IT HAS TO BE MORE of a save, period. AND, while your at it.. seems we use so little while we are moving, this is one ability i wnat to be able to cast on the run, instant cast, and on the run, please, whatever you do to it. again... fix Stonewall in '09

doyler2k

05-06-2009, 01:06 PM

Stonewall is weak and doesnt justify the Endline ability of any fighter let alone paladin. Our only death save has a detrimental effect which renders us crippled for ~6s and the stoneskin triggers would have been nice had they went live. Fix Stonewall in 09 !

deBussi

05-07-2009, 03:13 AM

Fix Stonewall in '09, again... fix Stonewall in '09up!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> we hope and believe!

sigurt

05-07-2009, 02:03 PM

This ability is absolutely useless. There are many suggestions on improvement of Stone Wall, and developers persistently dont pay attention to complaints of users. All from us know that this ability is too weak for paladin tso endline ability, so fix it! Fix Stone Wall in 09!

Brat

05-07-2009, 02:10 PM

Fix Stone Wall in 09!!! The official answer in 09!!!

Stonestrong

05-07-2009, 04:49 PM

OK so it's been over 2 weeks and 6 pages worth of posts and not even an acknowledgement. You guys are spending time on working with fluff like renaming spells when we have genuwine problems that need to be fixed here. What happened to the whole we will be working with the community and taking feedback? It doesn't matter if you are busy or whatever you have 5 minutes in over 2 weeks to let people know you recognize concerns on this and plan on doing something about it.<a href="http://www.imagehosting.com/"><img src="http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1331/new1f.jpg" border="0" /></a>

Brat

05-07-2009, 05:10 PM

Wow, great post Stone. I think that all people already have forgotten about that producers letter.Aeralik, create the paladin and try out Stone Wall on any TSO epic mob. Though I think that you understand that Stone Wall useless and without creation of the paladin.

Stonestrong

05-07-2009, 05:44 PM

<cite>Brat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow, great post Stone. I think that all people already have forgotten about that producers letter.Aeralik, create the paladin and try out Stone Wall on any TSO epic mob. Though I think that you understand that Stone Wall useless and without creation of the paladin.</blockquote>ThanksAnd I'm sure I will be critcized as being negative or something of the sorts, while I'm just reminding you guys what we were promised and trying to open up some dialogue here between the paladin community and the developers who say they would like our feedback........

Kaalenarc

05-07-2009, 09:13 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow, great post Stone. I think that all people already have forgotten about that producers letter.Aeralik, create the paladin and try out Stone Wall on any TSO epic mob. Though I think that you understand that Stone Wall useless and without creation of the paladin.</blockquote>ThanksAnd I'm sure I will be critcized as being negative or something of the sorts, while I'm just reminding you guys what we were promised and trying to open up some dialogue here between the paladin community and the developers who say they would like our feedback........</blockquote>Well, perhaps a little negative. But it does seem like we are an oft-neglected class. While not very subtle, you make a good point. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Brat

05-08-2009, 02:27 PM

<img src="http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3162/68314963.jpg" />Up!!!!

Lionnhart

05-08-2009, 02:35 PM

I lol'd at your screenie. Nice pic lol.

Anurra

05-08-2009, 03:23 PM

lol, nice pic man, that was good.

Vain

05-08-2009, 09:15 PM

Perhaps it was called Stonewall for more reasons than one...

Stonestrong

05-08-2009, 11:49 PM

<cite>Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps it was called Stonewall for more reasons than one...</blockquote>If they are going to name abilities after me, they need to be good, like me.......

Vain

05-11-2009, 02:57 PM

Don't get me mixed up with Salarionn.stone·wall<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="13" height="21" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,0,0"></object> (st<img src="http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gif" align="absBottom" />n<img src="http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif" align="absBottom" />wôl<img src="http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif" align="absBottom" />)<div>v. stone·walled, stone·wall·ing, stone·walls</div><div>v.intr. <div>1. Informal <div>a. To engage in delaying tactics; stall: "stonewalling for time in order to close the missile gap" James Reston.</div><div>b. To refuse to answer or cooperate.</div></div><div>2. Sports To play defensively rather than trying to score in cricket.</div></div><div>v.tr. Informal <div>To refuse to answer or cooperate with; resist or rebuff: "I want you to stonewall it, let them plead the Fifth Amendment" Richard M. Nixon.</div></div><hr />

Brat

05-11-2009, 06:07 PM

Up! We havent forgotten about it!Fix Stone Wall in 09!

Brat

05-12-2009, 09:18 PM

One more up!

Stonestrong

05-13-2009, 06:15 AM

<a href="http://www.imagehosting.com/"><img src="http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7428/istock000002694919xsmal.jpg" border="0" /></a>Seriously is that how we are going to behave? Tsk Tsk SOE we want change, like Obama promised!

Boli32

05-13-2009, 07:22 AM

Stonewall has never "saved my behind" in a raid, group, or solo situation.I spent 182 AAs on getting an ability which I use in one situation and one situation only: I cast it on the incoming pull to make sure I block the first MELEE attack - somethgin I could have done anyways, and something the mob coudl just strikethrough anyways.Its an end line ability that no pally actually uses in the way it was intended. If it made us dps more or break the procs on our equipment to do more damage I can bet that it woudl be changed quickly... but because it is not workign the way it was intended but *not* in our favour it remains broken... because that is what it is.Divine favour was the same... I found a single use for it the entire time I had it and it was due a tweak, a change to make it viable Stonewall needs to be improved in a similar fashion; because if I was running out of hotbar space I would remove it.That in mind: My suggestion for Stonewall- Make it a "real spike damage save" either a fixed number of triggers with a minimum health requirement to trigger.- Or if SoE is completly insistant on making sure that pallys are the only tank without a decent spike damage save then make it into a temporary buff such as raises shield effectiness for 20s by 100% recast 90s) or something similar.Either solution would be preferable to the spell in its current state.

Jeal

05-13-2009, 08:08 AM

please fix this nub ability <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Aerfen

05-13-2009, 12:35 PM

So I originally posted my agreement with fixing Stonewall over 3 weeks ago. I logged in today in hopes that a "Red Name" had posted...something...at the VERY MINIMUM a nice little post about how they "Are aware that the Paladin community is experiencing frustration with Stonewall, and it is being 'looked at'". I should have known better. Three weeks. Three long weeks of people stating their issues with this end line AA ability, and SOE hasn't even had the decency to post ANYTHING?!SOE, what happened to communicating with your customers...the "open dialogue" you spoke of. Perhaps you are still working on this: <img src="http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/Aerfen77/soe.jpg" width="641" height="31" />I understand that there is a lot in the game that needs fixing, but this ability has been out for over six months and needs to be moved up on the priority list. And you at least need to be communicating with your customers. My suggestions is that you spend less time working out the details of your communication plan, and more time actually communicating.

Stonestrong

05-13-2009, 01:17 PM

<cite>Aerfen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>So I originally posted my agreement with fixing Stonewall over 3 weeks ago. I logged in today in hopes that a "Red Name" had posted...something...at the VERY MINIMUM a nice little post about how they "Are aware that the Paladin community is experiencing frustration with Stonewall, and it is being 'looked at'". I should have known better. Three weeks. Three long weeks of people stating their issues with this end line AA ability, and SOE hasn't even had the decency to post ANYTHING?!SOE, what happened to communicating with your customers...the "open dialogue" you spoke of. Perhaps you are still working on this: <img src="http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/Aerfen77/soe.jpg" width="641" height="31" />I understand that there is a lot in the game that needs fixing, but this ability has been out for over six months and needs to be moved up on the priority list. And you at least need to be communicating with your customers. My suggestions is that you spend less time working out the details of your communication plan, and more time actually communicating.</blockquote>+1!

Kordran

05-13-2009, 02:23 PM

Honestly, I find this amusing in a sad sort of way. Some of you seem to have this notion that Paladins are on anyone's list of priorities. Clearly that's not the case, and hasn't been for a very long time. You're not going to get an "official" response to this, or to any of the other myriad of issues that have been raised since forever ago -- I would suspect due in no small part to the fact that they really don't know what to do with the class.

Stonestrong

05-13-2009, 03:23 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I find this amusing in a sad sort of way. Some of you seem to have this notion that Paladins are on anyone's list of priorities. Clearly that's not the case, and hasn't been for a very long time. You're not going to get an "official" response to this, or to any of the other myriad of issues that have been raised since forever ago -- I would suspect due in no small part to the fact that they really don't know what to do with the class.</blockquote>Well if they don't know what to do, maybe taking some feedback from us, the players actually playing the class would be a good idea? Several suggestions have been made and agreed with in this thread. If nothing else an acknowledgement and attempt and making this better would be a start.....

Brat

05-13-2009, 09:11 PM

<cite>Aerfen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/Aerfen77/soe.jpg" width="641" height="31" /></blockquote>Execute the promises in 09!Where the promised improvement of communication with players? Ah, you have already forgotten?

Meirril

05-14-2009, 03:04 AM

Personally I'd like to see Stonewall changed from a 1 hit personal stoneskin to a group wide AE blocker. Change the duration to 20 seconds. Change the reuse timer to 5 min. This way its balanced with other AE blockers, it is represenative of the class (i.e. protect people) and it isn't an ability that every fighter has.Alternatively, change stonewall into a passive ability to proc stoneskin akin to the templar buff. Make it to where we can also cast this buff on either ourselves or another player. Raise the proc chance if the target isn't us. That would feed into that "helping other tanks" ability line that more or less withered on the vine and died shortly after launch.

Stonestrong

05-14-2009, 11:43 AM

While the groupwide aoe block is a nice idea for an ability, I still think Stonewall needs to be more of a defensive save for us. Raise the recast to like 3 minutes or something and make it a 10 second stoneskin or 10 stoneskin triggers. Then it would be more in line with SK's Furor, just without the base damage.........or the threat......or the duration.......or the riposte.......

Kiljoi

05-14-2009, 12:08 PM

I ask... what do paladins have to combat big time spike dmg that tso mobs create?Divine Aura? Fail - mobs hit much harder now a days.Block? 1 trigger.. thats 1 attack... thats it... not gonna cut it.Divine Favor? no sir - 1 trigger and thats a long stiffle to sit and stare at the mob unable to heal or do anything else for that matter. (would have LOVED to see our 4 set remove the stiffle penalty!)Resolutions....Make Block have multiple triggers - perhaps keep the same recast and give us 4 triggers? or I'd be happy with Stonestrong's suggestion as well.

skycruise

05-14-2009, 12:13 PM

Speaking as an SK, I'd say let this work for the full 10 second duration with no dispell.Makes sense as an end line TSO ability, no?

Stonestrong

05-14-2009, 12:36 PM

<cite>skycruise wrote:</cite><blockquote>Speaking as an SK, I'd say let this work for the full 10 second duration with no dispell.Makes sense as an end line TSO ability, no?</blockquote>Thank you kind sir!

Moobs

05-14-2009, 12:45 PM

I agree with the paladins here this ability needs to be much better.

Wurm

05-14-2009, 05:20 PM

As a Paladin, I fully support the OP in getting this ability fixed.

Boethius_Permafrost

05-14-2009, 06:27 PM

This really requires a serious upgrade. I'd go as far as to call this ability "broken" now.Something that blocks one attack every 90 seconds really needs to be passive. Our own avoidance, a dirge buff or cleric's shield ally will block far more attacks than this.

Brat

05-14-2009, 11:58 PM

Up! Devs, read this topic!

Stonestrong

05-15-2009, 02:24 AM

<cite>Moobs wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with the paladins here this ability needs to be much better.</blockquote>Come on Sony, you guys even made me register my other account and post on my alt!

Zerit

05-15-2009, 06:33 AM

This ability definatly needs buffed up.I'd like to see something closer to how our divine aura worksA full duration of 10 seconds without dispel, and maby add in some immunities for the duration. I think that would make the ability much more on par with other TSO endlines.

Darkor

05-15-2009, 10:57 AM

Fix Stonewall please.

Kahling

05-15-2009, 03:07 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still think Stonewall needs to be more of a defensive save for us. Raise the recast to like 3 minutes or something and make it a 10 second stoneskin or 10 stoneskin triggers. Then it would be more in line with SK's Furor, just without the base damage.........or the threat......or the duration.......or the riposte.......</blockquote>Without the base damage / threat / duration / repost and the fact that it is more or less our only ability that stops damage outright is the reason why I don't think the recast should be touched.Personally keep the recast at what it is but improve the ammount of blocks, and I don't mean just add one block either, take it to 3 or 4 at least for its 10 second duration.Devs please sit down and think about this one. Seven pages and counting. TBH I don't expect a reply until you have discussed it in one of your meetings but I really think you need to set aside one of your weekly meetings for this and other classes main gripes and just do a 1 post reply in all the class forums. Balance can come in small steps, this is one of them.Kahling

Stonestrong

05-15-2009, 08:04 PM

Armeng

05-15-2009, 09:30 PM

As it stands it is a horrible end ability, I mean 1 hit, seriously.......15second 100% to block (same duration as the sk's)a chance to do reprisal damage(or generate hate) on successful block20% increaase in healsthat sounds nice to meset recast 3min

Brat

05-15-2009, 10:54 PM

Brat

05-16-2009, 12:28 AM

In the current state it should be called somehow like Stone Fail.

deBussi

05-16-2009, 04:02 AM

Wow, Stone, You are very creative man!fix Stone Wall! Just open guild lists on eq2players and compare the amount of pallies in ROK and in TSO. SOE is loosing the most loyal players!!! Because raid leaders understand that stone wall is a trash and kick pallies from raids!!! and upset paladins are forced by you to play something WOW-like, where the palladins are well appreciated!GU 52 is coming and I believe the fix of stonewall is also coming!

deBussi

05-16-2009, 04:08 AM

by the way, Brat You have a good opportunity to compare the survivability of well-geared paladin and trash-geared paladin due to server transfer of your gilde. Post your up-to-date comments here, it would be interesting)

Stonestrong

05-16-2009, 08:19 AM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://www.imagehosting.com/"><img src="http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7918/crusaderl.jpg" border="0" /></a>Let me start out by saying I have no problem at all with Shadowknight's Furor and I think it's a great skill and shouldn't be changed or nerfed. With that said how much is Stonewall lacking in comparison? I mean look at the descriptions and it's painfully obvious that 1 blows the other completly out of the water.Stonewall needs to be looked at and improved, this is 1 of our only 2 TSO Paladin endline abilities and is very weak in comparison to our counterparts and a few other fighter end lines.I would suggest making it a 10 second stoneskin, similiar to Divine Aura but without the restrictions or 50% of max health stipulation involved. This change would be totally reasonable and compltely in-line with what ShadowKnight's Furor is.</blockquote>QFE

Darkor

05-17-2009, 03:32 PM

Someone send a link of this thread to aeralik and rothgar.

Stonestrong

05-18-2009, 05:44 AM

<cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone send a link of this thread to aeralik and rothgar.</blockquote>I have sent pms to Aeralik, Kristie, and Froech about this thread. No responses. I guess when they said they wanted feedback they only mean on things they ask about, not just general feedback from the people who pay to play the game they make........It's a new week though and I will send them all another round of PMs, they can keep ignoring me I will just keep sending them....

Brat

05-19-2009, 05:32 PM

Up!!!

Darkor

05-19-2009, 07:01 PM

I mean, come on. Theres other classes out there with a sucky endability, but stone wall has to be the biggest joke among all of em. A single block? Thats embarassing. Who came up with that idea? Especially when you compare it to our counterpart end ability.This is in serious need of fix'age.

Brat

05-20-2009, 05:34 PM

Up!

Orthureon

05-20-2009, 05:58 PM

I completely agree, this is the worst endline I have ever seen IMO. It should absorb the next 10 incoming attacks (spell or melee), with a damage shield 30s duration. 5 minute recast. Just an example, might be considered OP.

Brat

05-21-2009, 01:53 AM

Up.

Darkor

05-21-2009, 05:33 AM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I completely agree, this is the worst endline I have ever seen IMO. It should absorb the next 10 incoming attacks (spell or melee), with a damage shield 30s duration. 5 minute recast. Just an example, might be considered OP.</blockquote>Why OP? Have you seen the SK version of this spell.

Wulfborne

05-21-2009, 07:58 AM

Guys, bumping the thread 100 times won't get it the attention it's due. I agree it needs to be reworked. However, being a SUPPORTER of that thought, *I* am getting tired of seeing "Up" as at least a quarter or more of the posts to the thread. I can't imagine a dev would feel any better about it.If we keep the comments and suggestions and feedback coming, I'm sure it'll get more/better attention that way. Last I checked, bumping a thread was supposed to be against forum rules anyway and won't help, I'm afraid.~Hawke

Stonestrong

05-22-2009, 06:04 AM

<cite>Wulfborne wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guys, bumping the thread 100 times won't get it the attention it's due. I agree it needs to be reworked. However, being a SUPPORTER of that thought, *I* am getting tired of seeing "Up" as at least a quarter or more of the posts to the thread. I can't imagine a dev would feel any better about it.If we keep the comments and suggestions and feedback coming, I'm sure it'll get more/better attention that way. Last I checked, bumping a thread was supposed to be against forum rules anyway and won't help, I'm afraid.~Hawke</blockquote>You are right bro we should wait around till they decide to fix this halfway through the next expansion!

Wulfborne

05-22-2009, 08:33 AM

Nah, I'm not saying to lay there complacently and all that jazz, but doing something against the forum rules certainly isn't going to make them sit up and say "Woah, this really DOES need work!". They've said it before - it'd be a bad precedent for them to be responsive to things like that... Suddenly others would think that if they were to break the forum rules then they'd get the attention for their issues as well.There are great points in this thread and good comparisons that really do show how this ability is rather "off the mark". I just don't want it to get overlooked due to bumps, belligirent postings, etc.I'm one of the few that have been holding on since the game went live. I've seen Paladins in their prime glory days and at their lowest. I've run solo, group and epic content throughout, so feel I have a rather good idea of a Paladin's all-around capability. I'm not saying I'm uber elite or any junk... I'm certainly not. But I love the class and really do want it to be brought up to par.I don't want to derail the thread any further so will let it drop here. I'm very interested in what they elect to do (or not do) with this ability, and others of ours that are equally 'meh' at best.~Hawke

Orthureon

05-22-2009, 12:30 PM

<cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I completely agree, this is the worst endline I have ever seen IMO. It should absorb the next 10 incoming attacks (spell or melee), with a damage shield 30s duration. 5 minute recast. Just an example, might be considered OP.</blockquote>Why OP? Have you seen the SK version of this spell.</blockquote>Yes I have but they are limited to melee attacks and a 10 trigger stoneskin would leave Guardians groaning aswell. My magic 8-Ball is also telling me that chances of the SKs abilities getting nerfed "Signs point to yes". So the chances of bringing the Paladins abilities up to par with the SKs overpowered abilities are slim.

Kahling

05-22-2009, 03:32 PM

Doesnt really need bringing up to the SK standard, just needs raising from useless to usefull tbh. Anyhows everyone knows the golden rule is ask for more, get half what u ask for and be happy.So please make it 3 blocks of anything rather than just 1 melle attack. We need to block other things other than melle. I would like to see the day a Paladin can tank Gynok.Kahling

Darkor

05-22-2009, 06:03 PM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Doesnt really need bringing up to the SK standard, just needs raising from useless to usefull tbh. Anyhows everyone knows the golden rule is ask for more, get half what u ask for and be happy.So please make it 3 blocks of anything rather than just 1 melle attack. We need to block other things other than melle. I would like to see the day a Paladin can tank Gynok.Kahling</blockquote>Exactly, noone is asking for that OP Sk ability, just something decent. Not a single block.

Brat

05-22-2009, 06:29 PM

You know guys, Im going to up this topic until we will not get some official answer. I dont understand what difficult to write something like "We examine the possible improvement of this ability" or "Shut up, this ability and so is very nice". I try to understand where the promised improvement of communications with users, but I cant find it, tbh.

eclpknght

05-23-2009, 04:00 PM

i agree. ive been a paladin for 4 years. i do not have a problem with the shadowknight end ability. however, for an endline ability, ours is really weak. i wasted 2 ability points in the thing to try it out for a month and see if it was worth it and it wasnt. i mean, it would normally bloke some usles 200 hp hit and then i would get nailed by a hit worth 5k. i agree that it would be more beneficial if it was more along the line of divine aura. for the same amount of aa points, i could get divine aura for that matter, if i didnt already have it. so why waste the aa for a one hit immunity? that sounds rediculous. why cant paladins have the same ability that the sk's have? i would really appreciate this ability being looked at and possibly upgraded. thank you.

Stonestrong

05-25-2009, 06:56 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>OK so it's been over 2 weeks and 6 pages worth of posts and not even an acknowledgement. You guys are spending time on working with fluff like renaming spells when we have genuwine problems that need to be fixed here. What happened to the whole we will be working with the community and taking feedback? It doesn't matter if you are busy or whatever you have 5 minutes in over 2 weeks to let people know you recognize concerns on this and plan on doing something about it.<a href="http://www.imagehosting.com/"><img src="http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1331/new1f.jpg" border="0" /></a></blockquote>Been over a month now, I recomend reading the box with the red around it sirs!

Lionel

05-25-2009, 10:14 PM

Im pretty suprised we havent had a reply to this, 9 pages of paladin's and even non paladin's oppinions about how weak this aa ability is. I think a 15 second duration stoneskin is really not to much to ask in comparison.SOE this isnt a class complaining to get something that is completely overpowered, or complaining about an ability that is perfectly fine. This is a class community posting their suggestions, views on an otherwise pointless aa. and im not trying to be rude there, as soon as i get enough aa's to get my endlines i wont be getting stonewall.There have been 9 pages of people giving viable options and reasons as to why this ability is simply no good enough, SOE please look through some of the suggestions given by your players, they deserve it.

OrcSlayer96

05-26-2009, 12:59 AM

It is a shame the devs can't change Stonewall to a 2 hit stoneskin, drop recast to 1 min, increase the duration to 25 secs and during that time have it boost our base heals by 25%. That way we increase any of our heals by 25% and increase our chance to block the tank killer mob hits and stay in line with the paladin theme. Numbers can be tweaked but the mainthing is 2 hit stoneskin, 1 min recast, and a additional base heal boost to help us out. Ah well i guess i just have to bring this up at fanfaire as another thing they need to address...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Brat

05-26-2009, 04:35 PM

Well, game update 52 has been announced and again there is no improvement of Stone Wall. You can name at least one reason on which the weakest final ability among all classes, hasnt been improved?

Sinvaryen_1

05-26-2009, 05:56 PM

<cite>Brat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, game update 52 has been announced and again there is no improvement of Stone Wall. You can name at least one reason on which the weakest final ability among all classes, hasnt been improved?</blockquote>Well here's my speculation. They are too busy starting another fire so they can put it out. A few months ago the tank balance issues were the most important thing in the world. After considerable (and justified) push back from the players this was shelved. Now procs are threatening to ruin the game as we know it! The sky is surely falling and all the Chicken Littles at SOE are scrambling to put it back where it should be.In a few months something else will grab their attention and cause them to drastically change things about this game that the players don't want. All we can do is sit back and watch them fumble around or go play something else. For me, option 1 is getting really old really quick and option 2 isn't really an option since no other game exists at the moment which even begins to interest me. Oh well, I guess I'll just linger around on the thinly populated servers and watch the class I've played since day one get neglected and ignored some more.

CimTaurus

05-27-2009, 11:49 AM

Come on Devs, give us at least a nod to say you hear that we are screaming at you.And btw, your paint skills are superb SS.<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>OK so it's been over 2 weeks and 6 pages worth of posts and not even an acknowledgement. You guys are spending time on working with fluff like renaming spells when we have genuwine problems that need to be fixed here. What happened to the whole we will be working with the community and taking feedback? It doesn't matter if you are busy or whatever you have 5 minutes in over 2 weeks to let people know you recognize concerns on this and plan on doing something about it.<a href="http://www.imagehosting.com/"><img src="http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1331/new1f.jpg" border="0" /></a></blockquote>Been over a month now, I recomend reading the box with the red around it sirs!</blockquote>

Faelgalad

05-27-2009, 01:12 PM

Stonewall is...1. Lame, its a copy of Divine Aura2. It's super lame, Divine Aura helps against little hits, Stonewall against one hit, even if it's only 1 Hitpoint3. Point 2 makes it in light of day super mega lame.The Protection value is marginal at best.4. Stonewall is an ability you need 182 AA Points, Divine Aura need 25 AA Points, which is out of balance5. Have I mentioned how ridicolous lame it is to get an copy of an ability we use?6. In comparision to Furor from the Shadowknights, which saves them 15 secs from all Melee Attacks... it is super mega busty lame7. Not getting any dialogue or answer from official site to this point, is super mega busty extreme lame8. Officials not keeping their word on more dialoge is a but catholic dogmatical <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />9. In the Testupdate, some AA get fixed, there was time to fix procs seven months after release, but you have no time for an AA fix of an TSO Endskill, that is super mega busty extreme hyper lame.End of the Lameness!In 2009!<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Darkor

05-27-2009, 03:04 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>OK so it's been over 2 weeks and 6 pages worth of posts and not even an acknowledgement. You guys are spending time on working with fluff like renaming spells when we have genuwine problems that need to be fixed here. What happened to the whole we will be working with the community and taking feedback? It doesn't matter if you are busy or whatever you have 5 minutes in over 2 weeks to let people know you recognize concerns on this and plan on doing something about it.<a href="http://www.imagehosting.com/"><img src="http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1331/new1f.jpg" border="0" /></a></blockquote>Been over a month now, I recomend reading the box with the red around it sirs!</blockquote>Cant help it but i got to quote this picture. We have been trying with constructive feedback, guess they want us to use other weapons.

Alir

05-27-2009, 04:23 PM

I would just like to say, although I dont post very often, I have played a paladin as my main since around GU13, so I feel pretty good about my knowledge of the class. I have raid MT'd and OT'd DOF, KOS, EOF, ROK and TSO. Although I dont play as much here recently and I used to, I still play enough to recognize a problem.This ability could be tweaked in just the smallest amount to make it extremely viable. As it stands now, I would put it on my hotbar and use it when I remembered. That should not be the case with an "end line" ability. It should be class defining and very powerful. This one falls well short of that, and really needs to be looked at and looked at now, not later. I cannot imagine that it would take a whole lot to fix it on the programming side. It really wouldnt even need to be tested a whole lot since you wouldnt be changing the "whole class" or our class abilities.Please think about the paladin community as we are really reaching out to the game we love and want to play. I am not a "we need a viable ability to raid" or "we need to be competetive" or even a "we need because this other class has" type person. We do however need this ability fixed, because the community as a whole knows this to be a half [Removed for Content] ability that is in no way keeping with the current progression of this game.Thanks!Alir

Kordran

05-28-2009, 01:57 PM

Kigneer

05-29-2009, 01:09 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Of course, they don't seem to have that issue with Shadowknights any longer... they were more than happy to boost them into the stratosphere. Perhaps by November it'll be our turn in the rotation. Probably not though.</blockquote>Believing is seeing.182 AAs to just have yet another way to lower the importance of a Paladin. Not to be MT; not to be the OT, now another Guardian yet nerfed beyond belief (what are heals to a Pally when it's about 2300 and you're taking 4500 damage? Holy Touch? 5 minute timer, and who waits in groups for it? How is that "unbalanced" now?).Truly feel SoE doesn't even know what they're doing, which is why they're mum about these Pally topics.But this endline ability is the icing on the cake on gimpness. We don't need another Divine Favor (I'd rather just die than be revived stunned in combat, as that's 2 deaths in a row and 2x a group can collapse. Does about zilch with TSO content, except if you got a lead while running away, and that's a 50/50 chance if you survive with like 3% health). If Stonewall is to work, it has to take a percentage of damage, not cancel it if the enemy even sneezes.Those of us who play defensively, and parry is our friend, it's not if we block a hit, it's when.

Kordran

05-29-2009, 05:26 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>182 AAs to just have yet another way to lower the importance of a Paladin. Not to be MT; not to be the OT, now another Guardian yet nerfed beyond belief...</blockquote>Well, I don't think things are quite that bad. I'm the OT for our raid guild, and I don't think I'm going to be replaced anytime soon. I play my Paladin most of the time, I still raid 4x a week, still get asked to tank for a lot of harder instance groups (YOS, PoF, etc.) and all that good stuff. I enjoy the class, and have no plans to betray.Certainly there are things I would like to see changed, Stonewall being a big part of that; Divine Favor and our defensive stance too. But I wouldn't go so far as to label us as "[Removed for Content]".

Aerfen

05-29-2009, 05:48 PM

<cite>Alir wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would just like to say, although I dont post very often, I have played a paladin as my main since around GU13, so I feel pretty good about my knowledge of the class. I have raid MT'd and OT'd DOF, KOS, EOF, ROK and TSO. Although I dont play as much here recently and I used to, I still play enough to recognize a problem.This ability could be tweaked in just the smallest amount to make it extremely viable. As it stands now, I would put it on my hotbar and use it when I remembered. That should not be the case with an "end line" ability. It should be class defining and very powerful. This one falls well short of that, and really needs to be looked at and looked at now, not later. I cannot imagine that it would take a whole lot to fix it on the programming side. It really wouldnt even need to be tested a whole lot since you wouldnt be changing the "whole class" or our class abilities.Please think about the paladin community as we are really reaching out to the game we love and want to play. I am not a "we need a viable ability to raid" or "we need to be competetive" or even a "we need because this other class has" type person. We do however need this ability fixed, because the community as a whole knows this to be a half [Removed for Content] ability that is in no way keeping with the current progression of this game.Thanks!Alir</blockquote>QFE...Are we seriously still waiting for a "red name" to ACKNOWLEDGE us? We're going on week six by my calculations without even an acknowledgement. What needs to happen to get a response? Do I need to send the devs cookies?

Orthureon

05-30-2009, 05:31 AM

No cookies are needed, they need to just hire a more competent Class Developer. Might I add one which is not biased toward certain classes.

Kigneer

05-30-2009, 09:53 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, I don't think things are quite that bad. I'm the OT for our raid guild, and I don't think I'm going to be replaced anytime soon. I play my Paladin most of the time, I still raid 4x a week, still get asked to tank for a lot of harder instance groups (YOS, PoF, etc.) and all that good stuff. I enjoy the class, and have no plans to betray.Certainly there are things I would like to see changed, Stonewall being a big part of that; Divine Favor and our defensive stance too. But I wouldn't go so far as to label us as "[Removed for Content]".</blockquote>That's the thing about classes and class warfare, too. If you have the luck and the abilities to be that OT of a hardcore raid guild, more power to you. Now how about the rest of the Paladins not in raid guilds? Even better those who are new to the game raising a Paladin?How can we as a community be more open to new players, when the Wikis and other sites with Paladin specs are all geared for end-game, too? How can folks preach the gospel about Paladins in the game, when they know from an alt no one wants them end-game (at least for "serious" runs that require dps and dedicated healers -- TSO instances comes to mind here)?It got to a point that I have a macro for every major beneficial spell (especially Holy Touch) that says who and what spell it is that is being applied (and for how much), so every group/raid member knows this is what a Pally does and is doing (it's also a reminder for those "Hail Mary" spells like Consecration that saves the group from wiping, that it takes another 5 minutes for it to come back up and don't expect it to save the group each time a mob pops). Why? Because no one gives credit to the Pally for saving a group from wipes. Doing everything shielding the MT; healing him and the group; AoEing and melee strikes -- all at once.Folks aren't kidding that OTing is the hardest role to play in the game. Little or no credit, but once you're down, watch how fast a group can blow.It's why end-end-game spells and abilities become so critical. Pallies are utility tanks, we have multiple roles to fill the void between a healer's spells coming up; to when the MT is stunned and keeping the monster entertained; to pulling adds/pops off the squishes. If Stonewall is but another Divine Favor in the end, it's just another slap in our face. Totally useless, and how to die twice in a row.<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>No cookies are needed, they need to just hire a more competent Class Developer. Might I add one which is not biased toward certain classes.</blockquote>Double Amen!What's funny is I went to check the shard jewellry yesterday. Pallies have choices between 3 different types, depending on mode of play (now we also will have to spend the most shards, since you can't always be in offensive; nor defensive; and sometimes you're called for a support role [backup healer]). Even one labeled "Crusaders". But you'll also see a series called Beserkers.Hmmmmmm...

Darkor

05-31-2009, 06:19 PM

Gotta send this thread link to even more devs, one has to take the time to acknowledge this.

Brat

06-01-2009, 01:13 AM

Somebody with a red name, answer something.

Kordran

06-01-2009, 04:49 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>How can we as a community be more open to new players, when the Wikis and other sites with Paladin specs are all geared for end-game, too? How can folks preach the gospel about Paladins in the game, when they know from an alt no one wants them end-game (at least for "serious" runs that require dps and dedicated healers -- TSO instances comes to mind here)?</blockquote>I'm not really sure what you mean about "preaching the gospel" about the class. But the reputation that the general public has with regards to Paladins is not something made up of whole cloth. Out of curiousity, I inspect a lot of other Paladins when I come across them and the vast majority of level 80s I see have completely out-of-whack itemization, health on the low side (~12K or even lower), poor avoidance (<50%) and poor resists. And then, of course, are those who do the spectacularly ridiculous, like trying to tank with a 2H weapon.So while I can kind of understand the point you're trying to get across, it's also true that a lot of Paladins bring the reputation of suck upon themselves. And no small part of that, in my opinion, is that Paladins (and Shadowknights) are plate tanks that solo pretty well; so you have that crop of "new players" coming up which are playing a tank class but really don't have any idea of how to actually tank. They hit the level cap, they try to get groups and lo and behold, have no real idea what the heck they're doing and how the Paladin plays in a group. They'll do things like put Amends on the healer (thinking that they want to reduce the healer's aggro), or try to stack the group with hate transfers, then put Amends on an assassin and wonder why they keep losing aggro to him. They'll spam their AEs, have no casting order, blow through their power bar and wonder why their DPS is in the toilet and everyone is ripping from them. These are all self-inflicted wounds, caused by a lack of knowledge and experience, not a problem with the class itself. That's not to say that there's no problems with the class, but the Paladin is definitely not broken.And yes, being the OT in a raid is a tough job; in some ways, more difficult than being the MT. But all of the "thanks" I need is a successful kill; helping control the encounter, dealing with adds and even helping keep the MT alive and breathing is all part of it. I don't need to have a macro that spams the raid every time I use Holy Touch or run Consecration. They know I've done my job when we walk away from the fight, dead mob at our feet, loot in hand.By the way, for those asking (or demanding) that a red-name dev post in response to this thread, that is pretty much the one way to guarantee that it will not happen. It's long-standing policy from SOE that they don't generally reply to such threads because then everyone will be screaming for dev attention in every thread that's posted. So you guys have pretty much sealed the deal that you'll get no official response here.

Stonestrong

06-01-2009, 07:54 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>How can we as a community be more open to new players, when the Wikis and other sites with Paladin specs are all geared for end-game, too? How can folks preach the gospel about Paladins in the game, when they know from an alt no one wants them end-game (at least for "serious" runs that require dps and dedicated healers -- TSO instances comes to mind here)?</blockquote>I'm not really sure what you mean about "preaching the gospel" about the class. But the reputation that the general public has with regards to Paladins is not something made up of whole cloth. Out of curiousity, I inspect a lot of other Paladins when I come across them and the vast majority of level 80s I see have completely out-of-whack itemization, health on the low side (~12K or even lower), poor avoidance (<50%) and poor resists. And then, of course, are those who do the spectacularly ridiculous, like trying to tank with a 2H weapon.So while I can kind of understand the point you're trying to get across, it's also true that a lot of Paladins bring the reputation of suck upon themselves. And no small part of that, in my opinion, is that Paladins (and Shadowknights) are plate tanks that solo pretty well; so you have that crop of "new players" coming up which are playing a tank class but really don't have any idea of how to actually tank. They hit the level cap, they try to get groups and lo and behold, have no real idea what the heck they're doing and how the Paladin plays in a group. They'll do things like put Amends on the healer (thinking that they want to reduce the healer's aggro), or try to stack the group with hate transfers, then put Amends on an assassin and wonder why they keep losing aggro to him. They'll spam their AEs, have no casting order, blow through their power bar and wonder why their DPS is in the toilet and everyone is ripping from them. These are all self-inflicted wounds, caused by a lack of knowledge and experience, not a problem with the class itself. That's not to say that there's no problems with the class, but the Paladin is definitely not broken.And yes, being the OT in a raid is a tough job; in some ways, more difficult than being the MT. But all of the "thanks" I need is a successful kill; helping control the encounter, dealing with adds and even helping keep the MT alive and breathing is all part of it. I don't need to have a macro that spams the raid every time I use Holy Touch or run Consecration. They know I've done my job when we walk away from the fight, dead mob at our feet, loot in hand.By the way, for those asking (or demanding) that a red-name dev post in response to this thread, that is pretty much the one way to guarantee that it will not happen. It's long-standing policy from SOE that they don't generally reply to such threads because then everyone will be screaming for dev attention in every thread that's posted. So you guys have pretty much sealed the deal that you'll get no official response here.</blockquote>What does any of this have to do with this thread? Nobody is talking about the general consenus on the skill level of average Paladins. Nobody cares about what casting order, dps, or whatever else you are talking about. This is about an obscenely underpowered TSO End Line ability needing some serious looking in to.If SOE wants to continue to ignore this thread and not post, thats fine. They can just make changes on test and never post here once and that would be fine with me. Although I think that people were quite respectfull for many pages in this thread, also we were patient. Once you are promised open communication then you have your valid concerns ignored, people tend to get annoyed. I personally am not going to conduct myself any different or go out of my way to be some SOE fanboy at the hopes of getting special attentions on these forums.People who have experience beyond anyone on the dev team with this specific class and ability have voiced valid suggestions that can be considered or ignored. In the end, we (The Paladin Community) will know that we manned up and did our share, can the developers say the same?

Hikinami

06-01-2009, 08:47 AM

It is really underwhelming. I don't think I've ever used it and felt satisfied that it turned the tide of anything like most other big skills or like the end lines from my other classes. Maybe I'm using it poorly but I can never get the timing right to block that big massive spike coming. Sometimes I use it on the pull or just when its up on a boss because I know it will at least hit me. Any advice on how to make the most of a very lame skill by the way?All for getting it beefed up somehow.

Lionel

06-01-2009, 11:07 AM

All i can think of to do is to throw out more suggestions, and well considering healing seems to be the pally thing why not a 10 second stoneskin with 20 percent of dmg absorbed returned to the group at health or something similar, or would that be too much?

Kordran

06-01-2009, 12:38 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>What does any of this have to do with this thread? Nobody is talking about the general consenus on the skill level of average Paladins. Nobody cares about what casting order, dps, or whatever else you are talking about. This is about an obscenely underpowered TSO End Line ability needing some serious looking in to.</blockquote>Yes, it was a derail, but it was a response to this notion that Stonewall being the useless ability that it is somehow makes the whole class "[Removed for Content]" (or something along those lines). Yes, I agree that it should be changed; giving it 3 triggers rather than just one would be more than sufficient in my opinion.That said, I accept the fact that the lack of a response is in effect a response: the answer is "no".

Full_Metal_Mage

06-01-2009, 03:56 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>That said, I accept the fact that the lack of a response is in effect a response: the answer is "no".</blockquote>Which I further interpret to mean:SOE has decided that they only want one Crusader class in EQ2 and have chosen Shadow Knight to be that class. So everyone can just go ahead and betray their Paladin.

Kordran

06-01-2009, 04:23 PM

<cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>That said, I accept the fact that the lack of a response is in effect a response: the answer is "no".</blockquote>Which I further interpret to mean:SOE has decided that they only want one Crusader class in EQ2 and have chosen Shadow Knight to be that class. So everyone can just go ahead and betray their Paladin.</blockquote>Anecdotally, I would say that horse has already left the barn. I see a lot of up-and-coming SKs out there, not so many Paladins. The Paladins that I do run into on my server tend to either be a small group of us who are in established raiding guilds and have been around for a while, or these completely undergeared players who probably couldn't tank DF successfully. In every case in recent memory that I can think of, when one of the raid guilds on my server is looking to recruit an OT, they're advertising specifically for an SK.My hopes for the class revolve less around what SOE could fix or improve, and more that they won't completely break us.

Armeng

06-01-2009, 11:29 PM

Hum, If I didnt have some masters, and sk masters werent currently(well all masters on Najena) so overpriced, I would probably already have betrayed(master amends and sigil I wouldnt want to have to get again if i didnt like sk also) Hopefully SoE will change stonewall for the better in some way in the future .

Full_Metal_Mage

06-02-2009, 02:12 AM

You know that Amends is now an MII choice, right?

Kordran

06-02-2009, 04:38 AM

<cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know that Amends is now an MII choice, right?</blockquote>That was a side-effect of the aborted fighter revamp, where that change wasn't reverted out. While they may just leave it as-is, it may be also declared a bug at any point and changed back. SOE is kind of unpredictable as to what sorts of things suddenly give them an itch; witness the Sacrifice fiasco recently.I guess for new Paladins, get while the getting is good. But I half-expect that to mysteriously disappear in some GU coming up in the near future.

Brat

06-02-2009, 05:35 AM

Maybe, but I have sent PM to Aeralik, right after decisions on cancellation of fighters revamp. But he hasnt answered.

Anurra

06-02-2009, 01:56 PM

I am not pleased with the Stonewall ability. I only really use it on the pull in raids, on the more difficult names in instances, or pulling entire rooms. Sometimes when I am taking spike damage, I'll use it...if I remember I even have it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <---Attempt at humor.There have been great suggestions in this thread to beef the ability up without compromising other classes. Hopefully we'll see a change soon. (Yes! I have hope. But it is false hope!)Oh, and a big thank you for all the other people replying in this thread lending their ideas and support.

Kahling

06-03-2009, 09:47 AM

I know there hasn't been acknowledgment of this thread but tbh actions are louder than words. I keep hoping one of these Tuesday min hotfix updates will sort it. Fingers crossed for the one today then.

Full_Metal_Mage

06-03-2009, 02:41 PM

Today is Wednesday already. But, hey, assassins got another hotfix on Test!

Darkor

06-03-2009, 03:51 PM

<cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Today is Wednesday already. But, hey, assassins got another hotfix on Test!</blockquote>Aeralik....

Sinvaryen_1

06-03-2009, 05:05 PM

A new Dev Q&A post went up so I asked when Stonewall was going to not suck. Yet another place for this issue to be completely ignored!

Brat

06-04-2009, 01:15 AM

Well, probably, we should write full nonsense in this topic to draw attention of Kiara. And then she can tell Aeralik about existence of this topic. But Im for some reason sure that he knows about it.

Kordran

06-04-2009, 01:04 PM

I am absolutely certain that Aeralik is aware of the Paladin community's position on this. Heck, I know a lot of us were /feedbacking and posting about Stonewall back during the fighter revamp, months ago. This thread is a place for you to vent your spleen; if anyone here thinks that it's actually going to result in some "aha!" moment for the developers and bring about some change in the mechanics for Stonewall, I'd submit that you're deluding yourself.Edit: I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

Aerfen

06-04-2009, 02:12 PM

Week 7...still no response...Definition of IgnoreIg*nore", v. t. [imp. & p. p. <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Ignored">Ignored</a>; p. pr. & vb. n. <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Ignoring">Ignoring</a>.] [L. ignorare; pref. in- not + the root of gnarus knowing, noscere to become acquainted with. See <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Know">Know</a>, and cf. <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Narrate">Narrate</a>.]1. To be ignorant of or not acquainted with. [Archaic]2. (Law) To throw out or reject as false or ungrounded; -- said of a bill rejected by a grand jury for want of evidence. See <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Ignoramus">Ignoramus</a>.3. Hence: To refuse to take notice of; to shut the eyes to; not to recognize; to disregard willfully and causelessly; as, to ignore certain facts; to ignore the presence of an objectionable person.Come on Devs...all we're asking is that you at least give us an acknowledgement of some sort...

Erenion

06-05-2009, 12:53 AM

I agree completely with the need for a revamp on Stonewall. When I first got this ability, I was very excited as I thought it would be very useful, and I hadn't seen the other classes endline abilities. However, after trying it out, it's usefullness is questionable.Absorbing one attack is quite useless in a TSO environment where AoE fights are more stressed than in RoK. Absorbing one attack in 20 coming from mobs isn't going to help at all really. And, as previous posters have said, this attack could be a very small hit.Another thing I've noticed is the recovery time. My recovery time for stonewall is 1.6 seconds. This is 4 times longer than any other spell paladins have. This may not seem like much, but it IS very noticeable, especially in emergencies or when you spike hard.I think the most fitting change discussed would be to make it similar to Divine Aura with 10 seconds of 100% parry/block. In a raid setting, this would allow for ~20 seconds of Paladin OTing if the MT goes down or for stability and such if the paladin is MTing.My compliments to the OP.

Vain

06-05-2009, 04:19 PM

Customer Service at it's finest.

Kigneer

06-05-2009, 07:48 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>What does any of this have to do with this thread? Nobody is talking about the general consenus on the skill level of average Paladins. Nobody cares about what casting order, dps, or whatever else you are talking about. This is about an obscenely underpowered TSO End Line ability needing some serious looking in to.</blockquote>Yes, it was a derail, but it was a response to this notion that Stonewall being the useless ability that it is somehow makes the whole class "[Removed for Content]" (or something along those lines). Yes, I agree that it should be changed; giving it 3 triggers rather than just one would be more than sufficient in my opinion.That said, I accept the fact that the lack of a response is in effect a response: the answer is "no".</blockquote>Actually, I was referring to Paladin's abilities being gimped -- and this end line spell even reflects it.I like playing a Paladin the most -- tried the other classes, but a Pally is self-sufficient and can take the hits and heal. The healing side of this class I'm enjoying, since it compliments the slow-healing abilities of other healers (yet dislike that Paladins get zero credit for this ability, despite too often that Holy Touch is what saved the tank in the first place). Most players are ignorant of Paladins abilities, and I find I have to tell folks in the group things like don't cure if I have 3 detrimental spells on me, as castigation damage increases for each one. It's these "mysteries" of our class, and our abilities that hurts us so much -- and maybe the devs are just as blind of our abilities and spells (and possibly why both suck).

kemlo

06-06-2009, 05:36 AM

i think that at this point all we as a communtity really want is acknowledgement that there is a issue with the generall suckiness of our TSO defensive endline, e.g. stonewall.hell i would love to be told "yea were working on the problem and will start fixing it next LU as currently we are swamped with the proc changes and new content"you see devs posting on other forums so i very much doubt they are unaware of this issue, couldnt they at least say "stonewall is working as intended" even if they dont intend to change anything?

Orthureon

06-06-2009, 01:42 PM

I think I have found a solution. Everyone start a new thread in the Assassin, SK, and Combat and General Gameplay Discussion forums (don't cross forum post). Surely they will all get moved here and merged into one thread. But someone might notice it. As for Dev response, I have had the same issues posting in the Inquisitor thread. It seems like any new class I start playing the Devs stop fixing em.

Aerfen

06-06-2009, 07:24 PM

What I find amusing...or frustrating...whichever...is that SOMEONE from SOE turned all the Class Support threads into their own category...so now we have the "Fighter's Arena", etc. So they paid someone to take the time to make those changes, but we still haven't gotten an acknowledgement...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" />

Brat

06-06-2009, 08:21 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think I have found a solution. Everyone start a new thread in the Assassin, SK, and Combat and General Gameplay Discussion forums (don't cross forum post). Surely they will all get moved here and merged into one thread. But someone might notice it. As for Dev response, I have had the same issues posting in the Inquisitor thread. It seems like any new class I start playing the Devs stop fixing em.</blockquote>With such relation to users, possibly we should do just like this.

Stonestrong

06-08-2009, 12:11 PM

The reason they haven't responded is cause they don't want to fix this skill and they don't have a valid argument as to why it should stay the way it is. Why respond and have to validate your point when you can simply ignore it and save yourself the trouble.Even if they are trying the old "We aren't responding because we don't answer demands" they are still showing very poor customer service. So either way they are at fault in this situation. Ultimately the choice is up to them, even though we are the customers and they know this all too well. I'm not going to threaten to quit the game or cancel my subs over this, because despite this I still like the game and enjoy playing it. I will however continue to remind them of how completely poor they are in regards to addressing their player base on issues like this, and how asking for feedback then absolutely ignoring it for over a 100 replies and a months + time is not very productive.......Stone

ArcticFlare Arcadi

06-08-2009, 02:26 PM

This is typical SOE customer support. It has always been this way and will never change. Ive seen this pattern in every game they have have brought out. I remember back in the early days of SWG where they just ignored their customers to the point were they either deal with it or move on to something better. My main toon is a pally and over the years Ive seen many issues come up and not get the attention that they deserve. Were not asking for SOE to make us invincible or gods we just want the pally to be more enjoyable,competitive and mostly wanted. I do feel that stonewall needs to be changed and I do feel that the pally community has been very constructive in their feedback on this issue.Now since there hasnt been no response from SOE(I do feel they have had more than enough time to come up with a reply) this is the result a pally community that feels let down. If SOE is not going to respond to this issue I do recommend that the post be should be locked or deleted all together.The ball is in your court SOE.

Brat

06-08-2009, 02:49 PM

<cite>ArcticFlare Arcadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is typical SOE customer support. It has always been this way and will never change. Ive seen this pattern in every game they have have brought out. I remember back in the early days of SWG where they just ignored their customers to the point were they either deal with it or move on to something better. My main toon is a pally and over the years Ive seen many issues come up and not get the attention that they deserve. Were not asking for SOE to make us invincible or gods we just want the pally to be more enjoyable,competitive and mostly wanted. I do feel that stonewall needs to be changed and I do feel that the pally community has been very constructive in their feedback on this issue.Now since there hasnt been no response from SOE(I do feel they have had more than enough time to come up with a reply) this is the result a pally community that feels let down. If SOE is not going to respond to this issue I do recommend that the post be should be locked or deleted all together.The ball is in your court SOE.</blockquote>Amen!

Kahling

06-08-2009, 02:55 PM

I must admit that I completely agree with Stonestrong's sentiments.I too am not threatening to leave game or cancel subs, I love EQ2 and really enjoy playing it.But I have to say I am bitterly dissapointed at Stonewall and bitterly dissapointed that valid arguments regarding it are ignored and hope every tuesdays update that something is going in to change the situation to the point that I have guildmates email me the update notes to work as soon as they go on.Add this to the fact that we still have a tank ability called divine favour that has a completely un tankish styfle to it. Add this to the fact that we still have a tank "ooh no" ability called divine aura that doesn't do much to save you when it is cast and more often than not doesnt cast before you die due to the over 1 second cast time and you have a customer in me that feel's they are being ignored.Like I say I'm here to stay and really enjoying the game but totally disapointed in the lack of any feeling that feeding back actually acomplishes anything. We will see.BTW this is not a derail I mention Divine Favour and Divine Aura in passing, and hopefully they highlight the real need for the dev's to get Stonewall Right, if stonewall is put right then it goes a long way to complement the divine favour and divine aura abilitys in their current form.RegardsKahling

Brat

06-09-2009, 02:23 PM

I didnt get tired to up this topic!I never would think that such company as sony will persistently ignore the users. Nobody requires anything such that will break game balance, people only want, that among 24 classes in the game there was a balance. And change of Stone Wall will be step in right direction.

Jeht

06-10-2009, 08:43 PM

This is just sad. Way to go soe!

Kahling

06-11-2009, 03:20 PM

EDIT:Nevermind I cant be arsed to write feedback that I feel won't be taken, acted upon or even read.Enjoy the fight for balance people, I am out for now until this feedback is used, this thread is pointless, every single person in it has the same opinon even people posting in here that don't play Paladins. If the message has not got accross or been read or acted upon in over 6 weeks and 12+ pages then I doubt it ever will be now. TBH it's more than 6 weeks, this is the same feedback as was in Beta over 7 months ago.Good luckKahling

Stonestrong

06-11-2009, 09:21 PM

YES THEY ARE TEACHING US A LESSON, DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU!!!!

Kigneer

06-12-2009, 06:00 AM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the message has not got accross or been read or acted upon in over 6 weeks and 12+ pages then I doubt it ever will be now. TBH it's more than 6 weeks, this is the same feedback as was in Beta over 7 months ago.</blockquote>Way it appears people have been complaining for years about Paladins being gimped and SOE still doesn't listen.SOE's position is that Guardians will be the MT, end of discussion. Yet we have so many fighter classes that compete for the same position (and few play Guardians as they're no use until end-game, and only if a group of healers and more supports the class -- and the way the population is this is getting harder to do. A Guard I know 2 boxes with a Templar to go anywhere, which is a sad state where this game is going).A revamp of fighter abilities would mean also a revamp on the roles of fighter classes and their spells (well for us fighters that uses them, not just CAs). A Paladin can solo and duo well, but he's so gimped that he can't fight end-game bosses as a MT. I'd rather trade 2 of my heals for a bump in dps, just so I can show up at an instance and do something than support or watch high dps characters tank the mobs themselves.

Brat

06-12-2009, 08:30 AM

Yes guys, people dont quite want to do the work and cant even give some answer, its sad. When a new producer was presented to us, I had a hope that the problem will decide, I have sent PM to him, but again there is no reaction.

Brat

06-12-2009, 08:47 AM

I thought now, if they not going to nerf shadow knights which already half a year the best plate tanks, to ask to improve only one ability there is no even a sense

Darkor

06-12-2009, 04:21 PM

Gotta keep sending pms

Stonestrong

06-12-2009, 06:07 PM

Come on guys as this thread has shown this really isn't an issue and not enough people have given input to classify it as something that should be looked into. I mean its just 1 or 2 of us bumping the thread and QQing. Oh wait no it's not.FIX THE TSO ABILITY BEFORE TSO IS OVER!!!!!

Brat

06-12-2009, 08:59 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>FIX THE TSO ABILITY BEFORE TSO IS OVER!!!!!</blockquote>OrTest abilities before their inclusion in the game!!!! =)

Wodge

06-14-2009, 08:07 AM

Just a quick bump.The best thing about the stonewall AA currently is the Protector AA title, which we share with templars iirc.I've spent a crap load of AAs getting to that AA, and it's blatantly pointless, i'm not even sure when i should be using it, a problem i've not had with any of the other AA abilities; aura of the crusader, sneering assault and faithful cry all have a purpose that is easy to identify, but this stonewall thing just seems a bit meh.SOE, can you just make it an ability which makes the paladin think "ok, i'm going to need stonewall for this encounter" or something similar, make it 10 secs of invulnerablity, turns the pally into a giant avatar of marr, anything, just not a pointless ability that i mostly use by misclicking cure spells (another AA ability that gets used more often than stonewall), heh.While you're at it, make Hand of Bayle, our fluff firey hand spell look as fancy as the SK one thankyouverymuch (same firey effect as our myth if you would be so kind)

LivelyHound

06-14-2009, 09:18 AM

Just wanted to add my agreement with Stone. Havn't yet got enough aa's to get Stonewall, but even if I did I reckon that there are plenty of better places to spend the aa than on this TSO endline ability. It's extremely weak and needs to be improved/addressed/acknowledged.

Sinvaryen_1

06-15-2009, 12:29 PM

I think the solution to this problem is SOE actually playing the class. Having SOE on your name tag, right under Aeralik does not mean you automatically know everything about the game and every class. This whole balance issue, not just stonewall, is bordering on ridiculous. It's perfectly clear nobody at SOE has any idea what they are doing, maybe with the exception of Domino. In any case, having good customer service and following up on promises of open communication is not important. Something must remain broken so that there is something to fix when things get slow. If there wasn't, these underqualified yahoos wouldn't have anything to justify their pay with. Also, and a bit more off-topic, Brenlos assertion that server populations are fine is a joke. What is his definition of fine? Fine for a game being developed on a shoe string budget by untalented people?P.S. - Being polite for 4+ years has not done anything to ilicit a response from anyone in a decision making role. At most we get the Kiaras of the world warning us to not break the third reich forum rules. I for one am sick of it. When you politely raise your hand and are ignored, the natural response is to jump up and down waving your arms. When that doesn't work, someone needs a good punch in the face. They know this thread is here and they have read it. They just simply do not care about any of us. We are good for one thing, paying $14.95 a month so John Smugley can buy some more pearl encrusted bum beads or champagne enemas.

Anurra

06-15-2009, 02:24 PM

<cite>Sinvaryen@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the solution to this problem is SOE actually playing the class. Having SOE on your name tag, right under Aeralik does not mean you automatically know everything about the game and every class. This whole balance issue, not just stonewall, is bordering on ridiculous. It's perfectly clear nobody at SOE has any idea what they are doing, maybe with the exception of Domino. In any case, having good customer service and following up on promises of open communication is not important. Something must remain broken so that there is something to fix when things get slow. If there wasn't, these underqualified yahoos wouldn't have anything to justify their pay with. Also, and a bit more off-topic, Brenlos assertion that server populations are fine is a joke. What is his definition of fine? Fine for a game being developed on a shoe string budget by untalented people?P.S. - Being polite for 4+ years has not done anything to ilicit a response from anyone in a decision making role. At most we get the Kiaras of the world warning us to not break the third reich forum rules. I for one am sick of it. When you politely raise your hand and are ignored, the natural response is to jump up and down waving your arms. When that doesn't work, someone needs a good punch in the face. They know this thread is here and they have read it. They just simply do not care about any of us. We are good for one thing, paying $14.95 a month so John Smugley can buy some more pearl encrusted bum beads or champagne enemas.</blockquote>They care more about boosting Assassins and nerfing rangers than anything else.Oh, and they gotta make more items for the station market place. The amount of time to create a single item on that is much more than it would take to fix stonewall. Seriously now. I could have stonewall fixed in the time it takes me to do a number 2 in the bathroom. It is not hard. They, as you, said, just do not care.

Brat

06-15-2009, 09:52 PM

Ah... One more update and devs again dont notice us.

Brat

06-16-2009, 09:03 PM

Yes, btw. Thank you for another nerf of paladins. What I talk about? After new GU, ward procs can no longer critical, so our survivability became ever worse. Thank you once again.

Stonestrong

06-17-2009, 06:16 AM

EverQuest 2Assassin <ul><li>Poison Mastery has changed slightly since poisons no longer critical. </li></ul> Bard <ul><li>Heroic Storytelling will now apply properly to damage and heals. </li></ul> Druid <ul><li>Reduced the recast of Rebirth to 5 minutes. </li></ul> Predator <ul><li>Toxic Expertise will now improve the damage of poisons instead of increasing spell critical chance. </li></ul> Shadowknight <ul><li>The Shadowknight will now be healed properly from Malevolent Protection. </li></ul> Summoner <ul><li>Reanimate pet will properly apply TSO pet modifiers now. </li></ul> Templar <ul><li>You can no longer cancel Disable Smite Wrath. </li></ul> SPELLS General <ul><li>Fighter avoidance buffs will once again persist through zoning. </li><li>Persistent spells should apply modification data properly upon zoning now. </li><li>Interpose effects will no longer trigger reactive procs while intercepting damage from another player. </li></ul> Assassin <ul><li>The Death Mark line will now use melee effect modifiers instead of spell modifiers. </li></ul> Defiler <ul><li>Spiritual Circle will once again apply to raid members. </li></ul> Dirge <ul><li>Cacophany of Blades will now make a melee attack instead of using a spell attack. </li></ul> Enchanter <ul><li>Mesmerize spells will no longer trigger additional spells. </li></ul> Summoners <ul><li>Some pet appearances have changed to match the new spell names. </li></ul> Swashbuckler <ul><li>The Inspired Daring line will now use melee effect modifiers instead of spell modifiers.</li></ul>Why is it that all these things can be addressed in GU52 and nothing about Stonewall!?!?!?

Kahling

06-20-2009, 09:04 PM

I'm not really bumping this thread or caring anymore you are imagining it. BTW if any Paladin is off to fan fair it might be worth printing the topic out to take in case you get a chance to talk to a dev. If you use a green highligher to highlight all the posts saying that a change needs to happen and a pink one to highlight all the ones that say its fine nothing needs to change then it will be easier to scan through.Tip. Save your money you don't need to buy a pink highlighter.

ArcticFlare Arcadi

06-21-2009, 01:10 AM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not really bumping this thread or caring anymore you are imagining it. BTW if any Paladin is off to fan fair it might be worth printing the topic out to take in case you get a chance to talk to a dev. If you use a green highligher to highlight all the posts saying that a change needs to happen and a pink one to highlight all the ones that say its fine nothing needs to change then it will be easier to scan through.Tip. Save your money you don't need to buy a pink highlighter. How about we Pallys buy a brown marker and shove it up your A S S !!!!!! TY </blockquote>

Kahling

06-21-2009, 12:25 PM

<a></a>ArcticFlare ArcadianI'm not following where that is constructive?Why did you take 13 pages of peoples concearns regarding the Stonewall spell and belittle it in one post? This isn't the flames board's you know, devs read that type of **** and it turns them off the ideas in the rest of the thread. If you have a problem with my posts please send me a PM to flame me.BTW if you want my honest opinion regarding stonewall, I am bitterly dissapointed in the spell, it is total rubbish and does not belong as an end line, coupled with the fact that the other death saves Paladins get are mediocre at best upping stonewall would go a hell of a long way to balancing out peoples problems with the class and using it to MT.Kahling

Brat

06-23-2009, 12:42 AM

We havent forgotten!

Stonestrong

06-23-2009, 11:56 PM

Kigneer

06-24-2009, 03:30 PM

<cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote>They made this, because its an almost exact copy from an AA skill from Guardian KoS tree. Idea during Fighter Revamp was the single target Paladin, wich needed Guardian like abilities and the AE tank Shadowknight, wich needed something to survive multiple mobs and attacks.</blockquote> In other words where Paladins were nerfed and screwed up before, the class is even more screwed up as "unfinished". Can't change Paladins into a single target tank unless they replace all the AoE spells we have. No, No, No to changing our hotbars into bunch of taunts and nerfing INT and WIS so we can just block/parry attacks. If I wanted to tank like an Guardian, I'd would've rolled a Guardian as my main. Leave the AoEs alone, and give us some [Removed for Content] non-interruptable end-line spell for a change (Ward is interruptable; hostile and beneficial spells are interruptable -- I thought God was on the Paladin's side, not SoE's game mechanics interrupting His plan! lol).

Darkor

06-24-2009, 05:13 PM

knock knock SoE, anyone there?

Kordran

06-24-2009, 05:43 PM

Stonestrong

06-25-2009, 05:01 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z258/excaliber551/flogging2520dead2520horse.jpg" width="320" height="195" /></blockquote>Ya this is probably right but we can still complain!

Kigneer

06-25-2009, 01:51 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ya this is probably right but we can still complain!</blockquote> And go nowhere, as this thread is showing. It goes nowhere are stats and figures that the game mechanics types need aren't there. It's just a wish list, and on the priority scale -- low. Have to show by stats why XYZ needs changing. How it effects the class and how detrimental it can be (in any set of shard armor, not just raid specs -- SoE has to balance all playstyles). If it's buried in plage 5 of a 13 page thread, it will also be overlooked. So edit the first post with the stats, so the game mechanics can browse through it quickly. This is how it's done on other game forums, and gets the devs attention quicker. Starting with the highest priority fixes on top; medium priority; then the low and wish list items. Discussion can follow afterwards, and if the devs have time they'll read it.

Kahling

06-27-2009, 06:32 AM

With the announcment that the next expansion wont be out until February then the Paladin issue with stonewall is bigger than previously stated. This spell should be our crowning glory just changing this one spell to 3 blocks instead of 1 would bridge the gap between the Paladin and some other tanks.This is not just a fly by night request, this is required. If any dev wants to sent me a PM I can explain but without giving out raid strat's I can't go in to detail here.RegardsKahling

Brat

06-28-2009, 07:16 PM

<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=454003" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=454003</a>. Where improvement of Stone Wall?! Where respect to the users, about which you so much speak? You even are not going to answer them. "Especially shadow knights love the content" (c) Brenlo, of course they love, b/c they became a overpowered class and nobody isnt going to nerf them. So where the balance?

Stonestrong

06-29-2009, 05:15 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ya this is probably right but we can still complain!</blockquote> And go nowhere, as this thread is showing. It goes nowhere are stats and figures that the game mechanics types need aren't there. It's just a wish list, and on the priority scale -- low. Have to show by stats why XYZ needs changing. How it effects the class and how detrimental it can be (in any set of shard armor, not just raid specs -- SoE has to balance all playstyles). If it's buried in plage 5 of a 13 page thread, it will also be overlooked. So edit the first post with the stats, so the game mechanics can browse through it quickly. This is how it's done on other game forums, and gets the devs attention quicker. Starting with the highest priority fixes on top; medium priority; then the low and wish list items. Discussion can follow afterwards, and if the devs have time they'll read it.</blockquote>If you want to see a comparison and balance look at my original post on this thread at the top pf page 1, pretty much all that needs to be said......

OrcSlayer96

06-29-2009, 02:47 PM

I talked to Aeralik after the mechanics forum to try to get Stonewall upgraded, and the most i could get from him was that he "may" apply a 10% or higher damage check on the single stoneskin. I tried different scenarios: 2 stoneskins on 1 min timer, 2 stoneskins and a 30% to base healing 30 sec duration 1.5 min recast timer. 3 stoneskins on 1.5 min timer, 2 stoneskins and 20 sec duration 30% base healing on a 1 min timer, along with several others. With the proposed aa tweaks in the fanafaire discussion and 50 AA's, i have a sense he has already made up his mind on what the majority of AA's we will have. I painted the picture of how 1 stoneskin is pretty worthless when it can absord a 50 point damage shield that most tso mobs have then get gut punched by a opening 20 k non debuffed or focus hit. I will still stick with PMing the devs and fight for this and other paladin issues but i thought i should let you guys know it was brought up to him in fanfaire...<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kahling

06-29-2009, 03:37 PM

Thanks for bringing it up mate.The answer is really sad news though and short sighted in my opinion, it's not as if it is not needed, and it's hardly going to hurt the other plate tank classes.

Kordran

06-29-2009, 04:40 PM

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I talked to Aeralik after the mechanics forum to try to get Stonewall upgraded, and the most i could get from him was that he "may" apply a 10% or higher damage check on the single stoneskin. </blockquote>Well, that moves the ball from "utterly worthless" to "marginally worthless". Now, if the minimum damage change was made in conjunction with removing the stifle from Divine Favor and adding the 2 stoneskin component back ... but I'm sure that's just pie-in-the-sky talk on my part.

Shinjun

06-29-2009, 08:46 PM

to paint a imagination...it should be a percussion of stone type buff that stays on till cancelled...Give it a variable 7%-14% of going off taking a stoneskin or 2 and ending with a 2500 dmg ward to make it look like its a deathsave or something ...

Brat

06-29-2009, 09:56 PM

<cite>Shinjun wrote:</cite><blockquote>to paint a imagination...it should be a percussion of stone type buff that stays on till cancelled...Give it a variable 7%-14% of going off taking a stoneskin or 2 and ending with a 2500 dmg ward to make it look like its a deathsave or something ...</blockquote>Honestly, your suggestion too overpowered. As already has been many times told, its necessary to change only ability, without changing the general principle. Extra trigger(s) or some ward after successful block. In other words, we need some spike damage stopper.

Stonestrong

07-01-2009, 03:17 AM

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I talked to Aeralik after the mechanics forum to try to get Stonewall upgraded, and the most i could get from him was that he "may" apply a 10% or higher damage check on the single stoneskin. I tried different scenarios: 2 stoneskins on 1 min timer, 2 stoneskins and a 30% to base healing 30 sec duration 1.5 min recast timer. 3 stoneskins on 1.5 min timer, 2 stoneskins and 20 sec duration 30% base healing on a 1 min timer, along with several others. With the proposed aa tweaks in the fanafaire discussion and 50 AA's, i have a sense he has already made up his mind on what the majority of AA's we will have. I painted the picture of how 1 stoneskin is pretty worthless when it can absord a 50 point damage shield that most tso mobs have then get gut punched by a opening 20 k non debuffed or focus hit. I will still stick with PMing the devs and fight for this and other paladin issues but i thought i should let you guys know it was brought up to him in fanfaire...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I have no idea why he is being so stubborn about this. Its not like people are just crying to cry. This is a legitmate complaint and an easy fix. Nobody is asking for anything OP just something REASONABLE.................

Kigneer

07-01-2009, 10:28 AM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have no idea why he is being so stubborn about this. Its not like people are just crying to cry. This is a legitmate complaint and an easy fix. Nobody is asking for anything OP just something REASONABLE.................</blockquote> If you've seen how long it has taken for the devs to give anything to Paladins than the middle finger (oh, what a taunt huh?), you can get a feeling they don't know what to do with us. SKs there's some off-traditional way of making them, ah, weird. But Paladins have a stereotype and if they stray too far it's no longer being some holy knight. They're pigeon holed in what they can offer us due that and their rigid concept of tanking. Personally, as I said long time ago, I'd prefer the Pally to have a pet hawk/falcon that will aid them in battle. This is how a MUD has the Paladin and it keeps to the age old holy knight theme, but offers something than just being a meat tank (it gets quite boring to just play a tank role, when 1/3 of your options is to heal and the other 1/3 to AoE the crap out of the enemy). But SoE only has one view of Paladins -- competition to their Guardian as the MT only philosophy. Which means the game is broke and will remain broke until they do something about Paladins end-game abilities and even purpose. To me Stonewall isn't as important as Paladins getting some more dev respect and revision -- not more nerfing.

Stonestrong

07-01-2009, 05:38 PM

Well if they want us to compete with Guardians for a MT role then that should be more than enough to improve this ability. Guardians obviously have much more survivability than paladins. I don't even think Paladins should be the premier class for the MT role personally, but that does't matter. Making Stonewall a worthwhile skill should not even be something we should have to fight them for. They are being hardheaded and useless, the whole lot of them....

Kigneer

07-01-2009, 06:06 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well if they want us to compete with Guardians for a MT role then that should be more than enough to improve this ability. Guardians obviously have much more survivability than paladins. I don't even think Paladins should be the premier class for the MT role personally, but that does't matter. Making Stonewall a worthwhile skill should not even be something we should have to fight them for. They are being hardheaded and useless, the whole lot of them....</blockquote> To the devs, if we have Stonewall as good as the Guardians it'll compete with them with that MT spot. The real problem in the whole fighter lineup is they gave every fighter something that every other fighter has, and none are specialists to bring to a fight. Worse they split it to good/evil, making it's a competition even with sub-classes. So we have 8 instead of just 4, plus we divided the populations between good/bad alignments. For roleplaying I can see it as a fluff thingee, but overall it harming game play more than helping it (and it was even more painful earlier when even good/evil alts couldn't even share the main's own bank -- no telling how much that hurt the game and player retention). In classic MMOs you will have the fighter and crusader (fighter types)/ the bard and rogue (scout types)/ the ranger and healer (woodland types); the mage and enchanter (mage/scholar types). That's the 8 group ratio thingee again. EQ2 doesn't follow this simple concept, it's now beyond even 16 sub-classes. And how raids are set up that all 16+ can't even play in a epicx4 fight, let alone even an epicx2, end game isn't as fun as it should be. People spent all that time leveling a toon, just to park or reroll it. It's no wonder why folks stop their subscriptions and play another game, and only coming back for expansions and what not if their class got "some love". We need specializing. If I play a Pally I need spells and abilities that ONLY Paladins have, not shared even with Shadowknights. If we must only play in a group of 6 and raids that's so hand tweaked it's pathetic, at least make dungeons require one of each class per dungeon REQUIRED to play it to encourage folks to play all the subclasses. If that means only 4 or 8 new dungeons each expansion it's okay, if the other classes will know there's something for them in the next expansion afterwards. It's not perfect, but it sure beats having such threads we see in this forum about Paladins being nerfed and/or unloved. Stonewall is just a symptom of the disease. The disease is SoE doesn't even know how to balance all the classes, as there's too many and their abilities overlap. That's what's needed to be fixed, so even they can see if there's a stat/gear problem BEFORE it goes live (not waiting just on patches for errors to show and be corrected -- we're not beta server players on the regular servers, afterall!).

Brat

07-03-2009, 05:05 PM

Almost three days without up!

Wodge

07-05-2009, 10:58 AM

OK, just had a thought on this. SOE want the Paladin to be a single target Tank, so in their infinate wisdom they've given us this Stonewall thing, so why not actually make it into an actual "Wall."Here's my idea, rather than pulling a named into a corner, how about you plant your shield in the ground and take it there, theres no harm in prepping for an encounter. Make it an ability that has you hiding behind your shield, which has become a hastily constructed palisade wall of sorts, a physical object the paladin has to hide behind and move to the side to do dps, while allowing the paladin to still taunt (I imagine, in roleplaying terms, they call the creatures every name under the sun to get their attention). Also, give the user a bonus to their 1 handed weapon damage, because the paladin doesn't have to hold their shield, they can use both hands to smack the crap out of the mob with their 1h weapon. Have it on a 5 min reuse timer or something, so it can't be used on every pull. Could also treat the shield like a pet of sorts, give the paladin a second ability "Fortify Bulwark" or somesuch to "heal" the shield to keep the defensive value up.Obviously most shields aren't big enough to hide behind, but i'm sure it's magical and stuff, so something would have to be worked out. (though all paladin's should be dwarves imo.)Either that or just give us a few more charges on the stoneskin, and make that hand of bayle a bit more sexy.