Why a guardian?

[Raelin]

<p>I currently have a bruiser and a SK. It was suggested to me, instead of rolling a zerker, I go with a guardian, since I already have 2 "offensive" tanks. I have played with zerkers before, but not guards, and have seen what zerkers are given and are capable of. So my question is this, why roll a guardian? I honestly don't know alot about guardians as I have never played one, or with one. I usually play with zerkers, SKs, or pallies. From what I have seen on the forums, people seem upset with what guards are, and I'd like to hope its not true. So, I'm hoping for a better idea of the guardian class, other then the posts complaining about it.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>I think you might find playing a guardian instead of a berserker or SK to be a bit more painful. They're basically identical to Zerkers, but with more defense and less offense (specifically no Berserk to boost your DPS), and less AoE abilities.</p>

[salle]

<p>Guardians are a nieche tank, we are the best defensive tank, so the things we're best at tanking is the hardest mobs. This means raid mobs. Most heroic mobs can be tanked as well by other fighters, and in TSO with so much AE encounters SKs are the best all around heroic tank.</p><p>If you want to dps with a guardian is quite easy, just go full out offensive with your specc, perhaps get a few bits and pieces of good deffensive gear or adorns but dual wield, put as many AA points into damage upgrades, (like upping the MC, DA, Haste, and base damage of certain CAs in the EoF tree) if you play your class right you'll always outshine those who can't play theirs.</p>

[bluephoenix2473]

<p>I'm in the same boat as you.  I've decided to make a tank due to the lack of high lvl tanks in the guild though we are already starting to change that.  I started with monk since i have a master tailor and it's soooooo much cheaper to tank when nessesary and just be dps the rest of the time which i'll still stay with, he is so fun to play.  But i've been grouping with 80 monks as main tanks and without really good gear can have a very hard time where when we swap someone over to a plate tank it's smooth as butter.  Mind you I know that monks can do the same thing but will take alot longer to get to that point so i'm going plate.  Starting guard but considering SK for more fun and if I would do better as my playstyle.  Already I can tank anything I gone against as guard so i love it but havn't had to deal with big mobs for aoe control and really miss my feign death when things go bad when soloing.  Overall I belive guards to be stronger "tanks" for taking the heat but i've seen plenty of SK's do just fine so any more input would be awesome.  Again I havn't taken an SK up very far yet so I can't compare out of experience but just want to be able to tank anything even at end game well with developing people in guild but my main will always be my warden for healing, that's my niche so I don't have to be the best tank in the guild or world.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>bluephoenix2473 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm in the same boat as you. I've decided to make a tank due to the lack of high lvl tanks in the guild though we are already starting to change that. I started with monk since i have a master tailor and it's soooooo much cheaper to tank when nessesary and just be dps the rest of the time which i'll still stay with, he is so fun to play. But i've been grouping with 80 monks as main tanks and without really good gear can have a very hard time where when we swap someone over to a plate tank it's smooth as butter. Mind you I know that monks can do the same thing but will take alot longer to get to that point so i'm going plate. Starting guard but considering SK for more fun and if I would do better as my playstyle. Already I can tank anything I gone against as guard so i love it but havn't had to deal with big mobs for aoe control and really miss my feign death when things go bad when soloing. Overall I belive guards to be stronger "tanks" for taking the heat but i've seen plenty of SK's do just fine so any more input would be awesome. Again I havn't taken an SK up very far yet so I can't compare out of experience but just want to be able to tank anything even at end game well with developing people in guild but my main will always be my warden for healing, that's my niche so I don't have to be the best tank in the guild or world.</p></blockquote><p>While SK is a very strong class......it requires alot of work to play well and to gear properly.  Based on what ive seen between myself and my SK friend.....Guardian is  easier in that regard.  In my guild we really only have 2 raid capable MT....myself and a SK.  The SK has been playing much longer than I, has his 200AAs,  has spent a LONG time properly gearing himself and learning how to play so he is our MT.   I serve as OT and on specific fights we will swap out.  Usually its on fights where add containment is critical, etc.  The aggro generation and more importantly aggro maintaining of a well geared and played SK is massive and as a Guard rather depressing to watch =P.</p><p>In terms of heroic content......there simply is no comparison....assuming good gear and smart play.....SK is vastly superior for heroic content in every way.  And considering TSO is the current end-game content......it is heavely biased toward the SK 'style' and abilities.  They really do shine in TSO.</p>

[Raelin]

<p>Well, from my understanding, Guardians are the ones that are usually raid MTs....can a zerker do it too? Or would I be better off having my SK for heroic stuff, and then a guard that could tank epics/raid content?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>All tanks can MT on any raid. It's not a matter of class, but skill, gear, and how good your healers are. The raid scene is predominantly MT'd by Guardians, largely because they've had a historical advantage defensively (and largely because many guardians have been with their guilds for a long time, and it's difficult to replace your MT). That defensive advantage does still exist, but not nearly as pronounced as it used to be.</p>

[Cragger]

<p>All current content is just as tankable for a Shadowknight, Paladin, or Guardian of the plate classes. Berzerker is a bit more difficult to heal. I've really not had any issues keeping any Crusader or Guardian alive on content they where geared for, and they really haven't had any aggro issues unlike Guardians currently.</p><p>I honestly never expect a balance to be achieved in this now without extreme hybridization. The simple facts is there are too many classes. 6 fighters was to much when so few where needed. There just isn't enough roles for them to fill. They tried to invent new roles in the Single target aggro/ AE aggro tank changes. But that was a failure from the beginning and was much approvingly scrapped. Because a tank that can hold AE aggro can hold single target and not vice versa.</p><p>Every expansion the fighters have been readjusted always screwing over one or multiple classes in the process. Warriors right now are those two. Guardians having aggro generation issues due to their crippling of their DPS in the GU that accompanied TSO and Zerkers also having some aggro generation issues and low survivability issues.</p><p>I still fully believe that any content from avatars to group is tankable by all fighters. Some just require a more specific group makeup and attentive raid forces to back them up. And generally in a raid force where you stuck between the desire to not overrecruit and have people sit and yet not have so few that on days people can't make it your screwed its just alot easier to take the more flexible tank, which imho atm are crusaders.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still fully believe that any content from avatars to group is tankable by all fighters. Some just require a more specific group makeup and attentive raid forces to back them up. And generally in a raid force where you stuck between the desire to not overrecruit and have people sit and yet not have so few that on days people can't make it your screwed its just alot easier to take the more flexible tank, which imho atm are crusaders.</p></blockquote><p>The thing that SOE and most of the playerbase keeps missing in all the discussions about "balance" is that if its true that any of the 6 fighters are equals and can tank anything.......then by definition that makes the fighter types that offer nothing else but being a tank inferior and put on the bench.   With room for only 1 in group and 2-3 in raids......it becomes a rather full bench.</p><p>Crusaders are now every bit as good and in many cases better at raid MT as Guards.....accept they also get to be the superior TSO isntance tanks.....and for the times they are not MT........they get to contrbute in other ways....DPS, etc.</p><p>IMO instead of forever trying to make every class the same they should be trying to make the classes more diverse.</p><p>While I have no intentions of re-rolling.....that to me would just reward SOEs and their failed archetype class design.....the title of this thread was.."Why Guardian?".........that is a question ide like to know the answer too myself....because I am rapidly running out of reasons.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Raelin@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, from my understanding, Guardians are the ones that are usually raid MTs....can a zerker do it too? Or would I be better off having my SK for heroic stuff, and then a guard that could tank epics/raid content?</p></blockquote><p>SK is better at everything, don't roll a guardian.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All current content is just as tankable for a Shadowknight, Paladin, or Guardian of the plate classes. Berzerker is a bit more difficult to heal. I've really not had any issues keeping any Crusader or Guardian alive on content they where geared for, and they really haven't had any aggro issues unlike Guardians currently.</p></blockquote><p>The crappy thing is not only do shadowknights own guardians in heroic content, they can raid tank just as well, they are probably the best fighter for killing hard stuff solo (like soloing SoF for BTCs to auction), and they melt faces in PvP.</p><p>Why roll a guardian? Unless you just love guardians, don't. Roll a shadowknight, get the best gear you can from heroic content, make a good name for yourself, and never look back.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All current content is just as tankable for a Shadowknight, Paladin, or Guardian of the plate classes. Berzerker is a bit more difficult to heal. I've really not had any issues keeping any Crusader or Guardian alive on content they where geared for, and they really haven't had any aggro issues unlike Guardians currently.</p></blockquote><p>The crappy thing is not only do shadowknights own guardians in heroic content, they can raid tank just as well, they are probably the best fighter for killing hard stuff solo (like soloing SoF for BTCs to auction), and they melt faces in PvP.</p><p>Why roll a guardian? Unless you just love guardians, don't. Roll a shadowknight, get the best gear you can from heroic content, make a good name for yourself, and never look back.</p></blockquote><p>Pretty much sums it up.......really given the current state of the game, its mechancis and its current end-game content....anybody wanting to roll a tank class beit for heroic or raiding would be beyond foolish to pick a warrior...especially Guardiann.</p><p>Roll a SK......accept that its a difficult class to master and have fun.</p><p>The rest of us will continue watching and hoping SOE comes to their senses..../shrug</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Roll a SK......accept that its a difficult class to master and have fun.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not really sold on the difficult part anymore.  It USED to be dificult, now they have several easymode buttons for aggro control, its really quite easy to play.</p>

[tyler001]

<p>hey anyone on my name is Jagwar and i have been off the game for a bit(in game name).  i need to no whats been happenning and i will be joining back the game in august.i am a kiera gardian misstmore server and i am in silvermyst. i was wondering if anyone was in that guild or new how they were doing???</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Giliad]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raelin@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, from my understanding, Guardians are the ones that are usually raid MTs....can a zerker do it too? Or would I be better off having my SK for heroic stuff, and then a guard that could tank epics/raid content?</p></blockquote><p>SK is better at everything, don't roll a guardian.</p></blockquote><p>THat is until they get nerfed.  You know it will happen SOE OPs a class then nerfs it.  Always happens.</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p>Ive been a guardian from the start - about 2 mos ago I ran a pally up and hit 80 recently - with 2/3 less gear the pally is a superior instance tank due to massive aoe aggro - when the pally is as geared as the guardain I will prob retire the guard from heroic instances and only raid with him.  I MT for my guild and a raid com on my server - got tired of crusader easy mode tanking so wanted to see if it was true: it is true. </p><p>Crusaders are 2/3 less work than guards, have super easy aggro skills, great AA's.  I love my guardian but currently any warrior that tells you guardians can tank TSO as well as a crusader is whistling dixie (excepting suck ahrse crusaders cuase skill does play a factor).</p><p>If you can tank you can tank easier on a crusader with less than equal gear than a guardian.  Still use the guard for outer guk (hard on a guard but doable under proper conditions) and PoF but once I finish my t2/3 gear on pally these zones are gonna be super easy too.  The easier zones are even much fun to tank on the pally due to massive aoe abilities.  Sure the guard can dual wield and run through them offenseive easy shmeezy but drop holy grounds and spread your aoes and things die super fast.</p>

[thial]

<p>Unless you plan on being a raid MT there really is no reason to role a guard and even at that unless you are really skilled your going to have a hard time claiming a MT spot.. Theres your answer the rest of what I say could be considered a wine or rant  but so be it...I cringe at the thought of doing a heroic instance with my guard. I hate the fact that guard's and brawlers are the only tanks that can't run in an instance and consistantly pull multiple groups of mobs which has become the standard for tanking instances. If it was player skill that made the difference I could understand but it's not player skill it's simply a bad dev team that doesn't think things out I'm really disapointed with SoE and the way they treat this game. But than again even in vanguard SoE hates the warriors, it seams some one at soe just does not like warriors.</p>

[Moralpanic]

<p>As somebody who has a raid guardian and SK, i do have to agree that SKs are the overpowered class atm without a doubt.</p><p>If you've spent any time as an SK, playing a new guardian will be very very painful. I was soloing blue instances as an SK leveling up, guardians can barely kill a single heroic blue mob, let alone clear entire zones.</p><p>So yeah, SKs are the flavor of this expansion.</p><p>Don't roll a guardian because you have fantasies of being an MT. Less than 1% of guardians are fortunate enough to be MTs, and if you have any shot of it, you're going to be playing your guardian for a long time before you can step into that roll.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>Starting a guard now and expecting to ever have a chance at being MT is an futile effort.</p><p>And if raiding isnt your goal then starting a Guard is just plain stupid.</p><p>We are a very singular purpose class in game where only an extreme low % of us get to serve that purpose.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>Yes, do not role a new guard, it is only ripe with disapointment.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All tanks can MT on any raid. It's not a matter of class, but skill, gear, and how good your healers are. <strong>The raid scene is predominantly MT'd by Guardians</strong>, largely because they've had a historical advantage defensively (and largely because many guardians have been with their guilds for a long time, and it's difficult to replace your MT). That defensive advantage does still exist, but not nearly as pronounced as it used to be.</p></blockquote><p>That used to be the case, but things have started to really change in that regard, particularly over the past 6 months or so. The raiding guilds that still largely stick to Guardians are the mid-tier guilds that don't have other well-geared tanks and healers. Guardians are still brought in for an FTK on a difficult mob, but other than that, it's more and more common that raids these days are MTed by Crusaders, Shadowknights in particular.</p><p>Edit: I would also say that, generally speaking, creating a viable raid tank is the most difficult, time consuming activity in the game, and of all of the plate tanks, the Guardian tops the list in terms of difficulty. You basically have two options, either start your own raid guild with you as the MT, or join an existing raiding guild that's looking for a new MT. In that case, they're going to expect <em>at a minimum</em> that you're mastered, have 180+ AA with your endline TSO AAs, a set of T3 fabled void armor and your mythical. A higher-end raiding guild would expect that you have your T4 fabled with 6-piece bonus (and, of course, would also know the various raid encounters). In other words, if you just have your T2 legendary void armor, fabled epic, expert CAs, and don't have your TSO AA endlines, there's virtually no chance you're going to get anywhere near an MT slot in a raiding guild at this point in the game.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> there's virtually no chance you're going to get anywhere near an MT slot in a raiding guild at this point in the game.</p></blockquote><p>Don't need any caveats.  The only way a guardian is getting at a MT slot in a raiding guild at this point is if he's already a MT in another raid guild.</p><p>Add that, there is little reason to role the class other than MTing, just leave it at, don't bother rolling one.</p><p>If you want to tank, roll a crusader.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> there's virtually no chance you're going to get anywhere near an MT slot in a raiding guild at this point in the game.</p></blockquote><p>Don't need any caveats.  The only way a guardian is getting at a MT slot in a raiding guild at this point is if he's already a MT in another raid guild.</p><p>Add that, there is little reason to role the class other than MTing, just leave it at, don't bother rolling one.</p><p>If you want to tank, roll a crusader.</p></blockquote><p>Agreed.....sad but true.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>If you want to tank, roll a crusader. </blockquote><p>Might as well just say Shadowknight. I think there's about three Paladins left who haven't betrayed already.</p>

[Airee]

So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Airee@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?</blockquote><p>Yes.</p><p>If you're looking specifically to create an alt tank to run heroic instances, then the SK is the superior choice hands down. The Guardian would be the worst choice amongst the plate tanks, not because they can't tank, but because they require the most specific group builds for a fast, efficient zone run. An SK can pick a healer, a power regen class and literally any other classes and be good to go at full burn.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Airee@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?</blockquote><p>Yes</p><p>In fact there really is no reason to create a new guard for anything.</p><p>The only Guards that are still are considered for raid MT are the ones that have been playing a long time and in a guild that has grandfathered them in.</p><p>As a new player wanting to actually tank in this game today, Guard is the worst choice.</p>

[Lord Hackenslash]

<p><cite>Airee@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?</blockquote><p>No you have a chance because you didnt play in the days when the best raid was 18 guardians and 6 healers. (small hyperbole) but you can actually learn the class in its current state. most guards were so fixated on single target fights with thier massive double attack leading the way that they never adjusted to the fixes to the class. If you look at your class weaknesses and search for the abilities that overcome them then you can be a very capable tank. </p><p>A well played tank can do any instance content well. One of the best group I recently had when playing my warlock was with a monk tanking. I got my highest parse in that group 13k and the monk was pulling about 5k and I almost never pulled aggro from him. he knew how to use aggro tools and not just dps. DPS = aggro but there are many other abilities that give significant aggro that arent taunts. Putting a negative status on a mob is aggro too, so Is buffing your groups. Hitting plant at the right time or casting your group mitigation buff can give you a strong boost in aoe aggro. most guardians don't know this and therefore they think any guard telling them that they can hold aggro is lying because the spell doesnt state a specific amount of dmg or hate. Try hitting Reinforcements before your aoe and get a massive aggro boost. instead of placing 8 aa in double attack and 5 in aoe auto attack put 8 in aoe auto attack and 5 in double attack. learn which of your group buffs have a fast reuse timer, you can drop one of these then recast for more aggro. All these things will help your aoe aggro which is the main advantage sk have over guard. </p><p>Guards do lean towards a specialized skillset for raiding but that in no way means that they cannot be an awesome group tank. remember one thing, guardians soak up immense damage and make life alot easier on any healer they are with. DPS is nto that important in a group setting the difference really comes down to 1 or 2 minutes over the span of a zone when 2 equally skilled tanks are involved.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Airee@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?</blockquote><p>No you have a chance because you didnt play in the days when the best raid was 18 guardians and 6 healers. (small hyperbole) but you can actually learn the class in its current state. most guards were so fixated on single target fights with thier massive double attack leading the way that they never adjusted to the fixes to the class. If you look at your class weaknesses and search for the abilities that overcome them then you can be a very capable tank. </p><p>A well played tank can do any instance content well. One of the best group I recently had when playing my warlock was with a monk tanking. I got my highest parse in that group 13k and the monk was pulling about 5k and I almost never pulled aggro from him. he knew how to use aggro tools and not just dps. DPS = aggr but there are many other abilities that give significant aggro that arent taunts. Putting a negative status on a mob is aggro too, so Is buffing your groups. Hitting plant at the right time or casting your group mitigation buff can give you a strong boost in aoe aggro. most guardians don't know this and therefore they think any guard telling them that they can hold aggro is lying because the spell doesnt state a specific amount of dmg or hate. Try hitting rescue before your aoe and get a massive aggro boost. instead of placing 8 aa in double attack and 5 in aoe auto attack put 8 in aoe auto attack and 5 in double attack. learn which of your group buffs have a fast reuse timer, you can drop one of these then recast for more aggro. All these things will help your aoe aggro which is the main advantage sk have over guard. </p><p>Guards do lean towards a specialized skillset for raiding but that in no way means that they cannot be an awesome group tank. remember one thing, guardians soak up immense damage and make life alot easier on any healer they are with. DPS is nto that important in a group setting the difference really comes down to 1 or 2 minutes over the span of a zone when 2 equally skilled tanks are involved.</p></blockquote><p>Unfortunaly I must diagree with almost every aspect of your reply. I have played my Guardian since release. He has ~15K HP, ~70% avoidance and ~68% mitigation all solo. He has his mythical and a couple of fabled items. He has 200 AA's and has tanked from VP down to duoing stuff with my wife. I am almost compeltely mastered and just using the research assistant to make stuff I never use cause I can.</p><p>I know how to play my class. Now to your points:</p><p>1. When somebody starts is almost irrevelant. I have gone through a dozen changes in EQ2 like everybody else that has been around a while. Start now and your at the bottom. Start next year and your at the top. Start when you start and accept it will change.  Your little comment about 16 Guardians in a raid implies that your an old schooler back when Defense was EVERYTHING. I supported the changes to drop Guardians down about 15 rungs to be back in the pack.</p><p>2. I agree that every fighter can tank an instance well. The problem is that the current game has altered the expectations of the healers and DPS classes. They WANT to full burn and they KNOW that they can with certin fighter classes tanking. Expectation is everything and it defines the 'grade' of the tanking performance.</p><p>As for other abilities to maintain agro, I use every darn thing I have available as a Guardian and still lose agro on groups even with a dirge. Please don't tell me to click my taunts faster. I ask for Time Compression from my Illusionost friend and it still doesn't fix the problem. Also, my Troubador does nothing but cast very significant debuffs at the start of a fight and that almost never gets me over 10 on the hate meter. Ask an SK what deathmarch does for their agro? Oh, your an SK, please tell us...</p><p>Again, it's expectation that other fighters are dealing with and the person at the top defines that expectation and right now it's SK's.</p><p>3. I don't think anybody here would disagree that Guardians are really good tanks. But it's like a car. It can do 120 MPH in 5 seconds flat..... if it only had wheels. If you gave me 1 billion dollars and put me in the middle of the desert, I'm still poor cause they only want water there. If you give me the ability to tank very well, it still means nothing cause the mob has to hit me for me to actually use my tanking ability.</p><p>On that same point, on my Troubador I was in a Mystmyr Manor group with a SK tank. he had less HP, Mitigation and Avoidance than my Guardian. He would run into a room, agro 3-4 groups, bring them to us and the whole time wouldn;t be healed by the healer once. He'd usually be in the orange by then and would do an AoE lifetap and be 100% HP with fixed/locked agro. Fastest instance I ever ran. How would a Guardian compare to that?</p><p>Another example, I was in Befallen HoF with a T1 shard armour SK tank. We were fighting a named and the healer got stunned. The SK said in voice chat "No problem, I'll just life tap and we'll be fine." His health was actually higher when the healer un-stunned than it was beofre. Guardian able to do that?</p><p>Don't base healing requirements on amount of damage taken, it's how much HP the healer has to put back.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hitting plant at the right time or casting your group mitigation buff can give you a strong boost in aoe aggro.</p><p>Try hitting rescue before your aoe and get a massive aggro boost.</p></blockquote><p>Can I have some of what you're smoking?</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>DPS = aggr but there are many other abilities that give significant aggro that arent taunts. Putting a negative status on a mob is aggro too, so Is buffing your groups. Hitting plant at the right time or casting your group mitigation buff can give you a strong boost in aoe aggro. most guardians don't know this and therefore they think any guard telling them that they can hold aggro is lying because the spell doesnt state a specific amount of dmg or hate. Try hitting rescue before your aoe and get a massive aggro boost. instead of placing 8 aa in double attack and 5 in aoe auto attack put 8 in aoe auto attack and 5 in double attack. learn which of your group buffs have a fast reuse timer, you can drop one of these then recast for more aggro. All these things will help your aoe aggro which is the main advantage sk have over guard. </p><p>Guards do lean towards a specialized skillset for raiding but that in no way means that they cannot be an awesome group tank. remember one thing, guardians soak up immense damage and make life alot easier on any healer they are with. DPS is nto that important in a group setting the difference really comes down to 1 or 2 minutes over the span of a zone when 2 equally skilled tanks are involved.</p></blockquote><p>This just shows how well you DON"T know how to play this game.. Cast my temp buff does give agro yes but the amount of agro I would lose from casting this and not cast a CA would be tons.. The only time the temp  buff is good for agro is when pulling multi mobs and you can't use your green taunt because the caster is staying behind.. Other then that the agro use of them is nill.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Airee@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?</blockquote><p>No you have a chance because you didnt play in the days when the best raid was 18 guardians and 6 healers. (small hyperbole) but you can actually learn the class in its current state. most guards were so fixated on single target fights with thier massive double attack leading the way that they never adjusted to the fixes to the class. If you look at your class weaknesses and search for the abilities that overcome them then you can be a very capable tank.</p><p>A well played tank can do any instance content well. One of the best group I recently had when playing my warlock was with a monk tanking. I got my highest parse in that group 13k and the monk was pulling about 5k and I almost never pulled aggro from him. he knew how to use aggro tools and not just dps. DPS = aggr but there are many other abilities that give significant aggro that arent taunts. Putting a negative status on a mob is aggro too, so Is buffing your groups. Hitting plant at the right time or casting your group mitigation buff can give you a strong boost in aoe aggro. most guardians don't know this and therefore they think any guard telling them that they can hold aggro is lying because the spell doesnt state a specific amount of dmg or hate. Try hitting rescue before your aoe and get a massive aggro boost. instead of placing 8 aa in double attack and 5 in aoe auto attack put 8 in aoe auto attack and 5 in double attack. learn which of your group buffs have a fast reuse timer, you can drop one of these then recast for more aggro. All these things will help your aoe aggro which is the main advantage sk have over guard.</p><p>Guards do lean towards a specialized skillset for raiding but that in no way means that they cannot be an awesome group tank. remember one thing, guardians soak up immense damage and make life alot easier on any healer they are with. DPS is nto that important in a group setting the difference really comes down to 1 or 2 minutes over the span of a zone when 2 equally skilled tanks are involved.</p></blockquote><p>Wow ive read alot of disinformation on these forums but this takes the cake.</p><p>Temp buffs might help a little aggro....but only on the pull.</p><p>Rescue does nothing to boost what the blue AE does......Rescue just does what rescue does and its only on a single target. Which by the way is the same thing it does for every singler fighter since we all have rescue.</p><p>Plant is not really generating aggro.</p><p>And a Guard just leans toward a specialized skill set against a very small number of raid targets...everywhere else...from soloing to average raiding we are worst choice.</p><p>And the kicker in terms of pure BS is your claim that running a instance with a SK -vs- a Guard amounts to 1 or 2 minutes.........you have to be kidding me.</p><p>In the grand scheme of the game...Guards are not easier to heal.....hit per hit (only on select raid mobs) perhaps.....but you have to look at the whole picture. A Tank that can lock aggro, where group members dont have to worry abit about their aggro and can run a zone in a fraction of the time -vs- another is "easier" heal.</p>

[Lord Hackenslash]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Rescue does nothing to boost what the blue AE does......Rescue just does what rescue does and its only on a single target. Which by the way is the same thing it does for every singler fighter since we all have rescue.</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I apologise, I mistyped Rescue was meant to be Reinforcements. </p>

[Yimway]

<p>What a fool...</p><p>Look, I wont go to the SK boards and tell you how to play your class, you might want to consider doing the same here.</p><p>Temp buffs haven't provided significant agro since DoF. Yes, there is an aggro component to it, but raising your mitigation by 1500 isn't even remotely the same agro as healing you 150hp or providing you 150 power.  Test it some time.</p><p>Reinforcement + AoE's does not really provide you that much hate I'm afraid.  The hate amount on reiforcement is quite small, its power lies in it being a position increaser.  So Reinforcement + AoE's only helps snap mobs back to you once you've lost them, it really does very little to build hate.</p><p>The only thing you spewed that is relevant was plant, and yes plant CAN be useful used in the right places.  However, in AoE fights it is most commonly a recipe for killing your group mates.  The problem is it is an aoe root, and when mobs are rooted, they have 100% aggro on the person nearest to them.   Chances are, atleast some of your group is going to be closer to one of the 12 mobs in range when you use this ability, and of course that mob is going to turn around and start beating on your allies.</p><p>I've certainly seen plant cause as many deaths as it has prevented, but yes, used perfectly, it can be a useful tool.  Like, tanking for a purely ranged group, yeah, its going to be pretty huge.</p>

[Lord Hackenslash]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What a fool...<span style="color: #ffcc00;">Nice, certainly this is gonna be a educated dialogue.</span></p><p>Look, I wont go to the SK boards and tell you how to play your class, you might want to consider doing the same here. <span style="color: #ffcc00;">Sorry but when threads turn into attacks on SK I may offer my perspective.</span></p><p>Temp buffs haven't provided significant agro since DoF. Yes, there is an aggro component to it, but raising your mitigation by 1500 isn't even remotely the same agro as healing you 150hp or providing you 150 power.  Test it some time.<span style="color: #ffcc00;">This tool is situational, no if you have a better tool to pull blue aggro then by all means use it but I have used it for some interestesting positioning tricks. some aggro is better than no aggro. all you need to do is get the mob to pay attention to you long enough for riposte, cyclone, and hold the line to start doing thier jobs.</span></p><p>Reinforcement + AoE's does not really provide you that much hate I'm afraid.  The hate amount on reiforcement is quite small, its power lies in it being a position increaser.  So Reinforcement + AoE's only helps snap mobs back to you once you've lost them, it really does very little to build hate.<span style="color: #ffcc00;">Reinforcements does have an aggro component and like I mentioned above, snapping the mob to you so that your other tools can do thier jobs is all part of a greater whole.</span></p><p>The only thing you spewed that is relevant was plant, and yes plant CAN be useful used in the right places.  However, in AoE fights it is most commonly a recipe for killing your group mates.  The problem is it is an aoe root, and when mobs are rooted, they have 100% aggro on the person nearest to them.   Chances are, atleast some of your group is going to be closer to one of the 12 mobs in range when you use this ability, and of course that mob is going to turn around and start beating on your allies.<span style="color: #ffcc00;">Again you can't blindly push buttons and hope to be a great player. many guardians never use this ability and where my brigand might have some issues with being too close, it can save my Warlock's butt. Its all part of knowing and using all the tools at the right time. I believe your following statement supports this but you chose to separate it in order to make my point appear in a vacum.</span></p><p>I've certainly seen plant cause as many deaths as it has prevented, but yes, used perfectly, it can be a useful tool.  Like, tanking for a purely ranged group, yeah, its going to be pretty huge.</p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">I do not propose I know guardians better than anyone else but I do think that in answering the OPs question there is alot of doom and gloom without and real information. Please correct me and offer some constructive information to the OP. </span></p></blockquote>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Please correct me and <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>offer some constructive information to the OP.</strong></em> </span></span></p></blockquote><p>Re-roll.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">1) This tool is situational, no if you have a better tool to pull blue aggro then by all means use it but I have used it for some interestesting positioning tricks. some aggro is better than no aggro. all you need to do is get the mob to pay attention to you long enough for riposte, cyclone, and hold the line to start doing thier jobs.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">2)Reinforcements does have an aggro component and like I mentioned above, snapping the mob to you so that your other tools can do thier jobs is all part of a greater whole.</span></p><p><cite></cite><span style="color: #ffcc00;">3)I do not propose I know guardians better than anyone else but I do think that in answering the OPs question there is alot of doom and gloom without and real information. Please correct me and offer some constructive information to the OP. </span></p></blockquote><p>1) The threat provided by group buffs is so neglegable, a single dot from my level 25 necro will overcome the hate generated by a level 80 buff applied.  To even list it as worth the cast time to generate aggro vs ANYTHING else only demonstrates your lack of understanding of agro mechanics.</p><p>2) Reinforcement applies 565 hate at master1, again a SINGLE encounter dot will overcome the hate provided from that group proc, it is fairly insignificant in the scheme of holding aggro and you would be far better off reserving the spell for how it is intended, snapping aggro back after it is lost.  Unless your planning on killing the aoe encounter in 10 seconds in which case spacing the aoe snaps out would likely be suficient.  As far as holding aoe aggro on a fight more than 15 seconds, its failsauce.</p><p>3) I'll bet I know SK and Guardian better than you do, but entering that [Removed for Content] match doesn't really achieve anything.  As far as your noble gesture on providing information for the OP, that question was asked an answered 4 months ago, I seriously doubt he's been waiting around for 4 months to get your insight on what class to play or betray.  But, its very noble of you to come into this discusion for the betterment of the OP's needs.</p>

[Lord Hackenslash]

<p>The 565 hate on reinforcment is in addition to the base hit of the combat art, again you are placing things in a vacum. Its all about getting the initial snap aggro so your maintained aggro tools can get to work. </p><p>Buff hate is not as low as you make it out to be.</p><p>Do I use it as a regular tactic? No.Are there times when a non damaging aggro even in small amounts can make a fight easier? Yes. some very interesting things can be done during a pull with that tactic and although it will not rip aggro from a warlock goin full out it will get the mobs attention before others engage in order to position mobs for use of other skills to lock control on the situation. This tactic is so old that i like to mention it because alot of tanks who were not around pre DoF dont even know this works.</p><p>I am glad to know you know my class better than I do. I really would encourage you to share your knowledge. Certainly you are aware that there are many styles of play and not every player is asking for raid advise. Its a shame you think so poorly of the Guardian class. I suspect many of the guardians I group with may find it curious that you cannot function in a group environment. </p>

[Terron]

<p>No one was saying that guards can not function in a group environment, just that they function worse than other tanks.</p><p>I have been playing my guard since DoF. I can tank TSO instances, but unless I have the perfect group set up I will struggle to hold aggro, and even with it I can't hold aggro off better equipped high DPS classes. I haven't tanked any raids harder than the T1 RoK ones, but my guild leader who is our raid MT and also a guard says he has similar problem with heroic instances.</p><p>The last instance I was in I was on my illu and a less experienced, less well equipped SK , taking on multiple groups of mobs, yet only loosing aggro a couple of times in the entrie zone (whereas on my guard I depend on snap aggro tools to pull back aggro after I lost it almost every fight). Last night that SK got his mythical so he is no longer less well equipped.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>so your <strong>maintained aggro tools </strong>can get to work.</p></blockquote><p>Which are?</p>

[thial]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The 565 hate on reinforcment is in addition to the base hit of the combat art, again you are placing things in a vacum. Its all about getting the initial snap aggro so your maintained aggro tools can get to work. </p><p>Buff hate is not as low as you make it out to be.</p><p>Do I use it as a regular tactic? No.Are there times when a non damaging aggro even in small amounts can make a fight easier? Yes. some very interesting things can be done during a pull with that tactic and although it will not rip aggro from a warlock goin full out it will get the mobs attention before others engage in order to position mobs for use of other skills to lock control on the situation. This tactic is so old that i like to mention it because alot of tanks who were not around pre DoF dont even know this works.</p><p>I am glad to know you know my class better than I do. I really would encourage you to share your knowledge. Certainly you are aware that there are many styles of play and not every player is asking for raid advise. Its a shame you think so poorly of the Guardian class. I suspect many of the guardians I group with may find it curious that you cannot function in a group environment. </p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">You get offended when people tell you how to play your class well maybe you should eat your own advice. Do you play a guard have you experienced what it is like to play a guard? A guard can function in a group but it's like racing a turbo charged civic when you should have just got the 370Z. The DPS in the group must relies that the tank is not capable of holding agro with them going all out, this would not be a problem if all tanks had it the same way. For me to keep a some what decent amount of agro while doing heroic content I have to time every big hit and rescue ability if I want to keep the group going at a decent pace. One pull I use reinforcement and a blue aoe next pull ill have sentry watch ready next group ill have stone sphere ready. One encounter Ill open up with decimate the next one Ill open with mar or slam? I forget what they changed the names to. Save all rescues for when encounter mobs peel off. Constant tab targeting is a necessity. Another key to heroic encounters is actually letting the mobs hit me, I wish aggressive nature would proc off a parry. I’m pretty sure I parry more than I actually block plus correct me if I’m wrong no shield = no block and who wears a shield during heroic encounters accept to recast trak shield or soak up some damage. So honestly I can get things done but its stress full and anything but fun and that is why I only log on to raid or play my pally, doing heroic instances is just not fun. And I play this game to have fun not to stress my self out more than the stress I get from work or driving on Florida roads. The amount of agro casting our mit buff is so minimal and is nothing compared to the agro caused by lets say a group heal/ward/reactive. I'm really tired of other tanks coming into discussions telling guards how to play. It's like all of a sudden you are master of all tanks and understand all aspects of the game because you’re playing a class that has little to no issues. Role a guard get to 80 take a group with a warlock and an illy and tell me how much fun you are having. Tell me how well plant works when the root is being broken from the dps attacking it. Plant is good to stop the mobs and get a reinforced AE off but usually it needs to be canceled just as fast as its applied to go grab an add that has slipped past. I could go on forever but I’m going to stop it’s not worth it as to many people out there have there blinders on. </span></span></p><p> edit...just to add there is an initial "cap" on the amount of hate you can gain when you first start an encounter so opening up with any kind of hate position is worthless, you need to let the rest of the group get some hate first.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Buff hate is not as low as you make it out to be.</p></blockquote><p>Test it, log it, parse it, paste it.  Prove me wrong.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>She's saying if you factor in the damage from the combat art, and then the amount of hate gained from reinforcement, plus 50% hate mod, all-in-all it nets you more than 538 threat. No need to have to parse that, it's self explanatory.</p><p>Obviously using it while you are safely on top of the hate list isn't going to do that much for you, but that's not the purpose the buff serves.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>She's saying if you factor in the damage from the combat art, and then the amount of hate gained from reinforcement, plus 50% hate mod, all-in-all it nets you more than 538 threat. No need to have to parse that, it's self explanatory.</p><p>Obviously using it while you are safely on top of the hate list isn't going to do that much for you, but that's not the purpose the buff serves.</p></blockquote><p>I told her/him to parse the group buff casting for agro.  That somehow casting your group mit buff is a wise choice in generating aggro.</p><p>I understand the arguement that reinforcement is adding 565 hate to the aoe attack, but even summed up damage + hate on our  aoe's a single sorcerer spell can overcome it, thus it is NOT a useful method of sustaining agro.  The abilities are far more useful as I described previously, for getting aggro back.  Since every hit includes a positional hate adjustment.  Using upward positional hate modifiers when your already number 1 on the list isn't a very effective / wise use of the ability.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I told her/him to parse the group buff casting for agro.  That somehow casting your group mit buff is a wise choice in generating aggro.</p><p><em>Oh... yea if you have to resort to casting battle cry for aoe aggro, you're doing it wrong.</em></p><p>I understand the arguement that reinforcement is adding 565 hate to the aoe attack, but even summed up damage + hate on our  aoe's a single sorcerer spell can overcome it, thus it is NOT a useful method of sustaining agro.  The abilities are far more useful as I described previously, for getting aggro back.  Since every hit includes a positional hate adjustment.  Using upward positional hate modifiers when your already number 1 on the list isn't a very effective / wise use of the ability.</p><p><em> Pretty much... reinforcement might as well not even have threat attatched to it. It is usable for sustaining aggro through extreme burst dps though. Or at least snapping the mob back every second until it expires =P</em></p></blockquote>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><em> Pretty much... reinforcement might as well not even have threat attatched to it. It is usable for sustaining aggro through extreme burst dps though. Or at least snapping the mob back every second until it expires =P</em></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Assumming the SK hasn't popped GS =P</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><em> Pretty much... reinforcement might as well not even have threat attatched to it. It is usable for sustaining aggro through extreme burst dps though. Or at least snapping the mob back every second until it expires =P</em></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Assumming the SK hasn't popped GS =P</p></blockquote><p>AND assuming your on a single target encounter, which this discussion was specifically related to AoE hate and you only get to apply reinforcement in aoe for up to 4 hits, and then only if your aa spec'd and the exact right race to have 4 blues.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><em> Pretty much... reinforcement might as well not even have threat attatched to it. It is usable for sustaining aggro through extreme burst dps though. Or at least snapping the mob back every second until it expires =P</em></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Assumming the SK hasn't popped GS =P</p></blockquote><p>AND assuming your on a single target encounter, which this discussion was specifically related to AoE hate and you only get to apply reinforcement in aoe for up to 4 hits, and then only if your aa spec'd and the exact right race to have 4 blues.</p></blockquote><p>This reminds me........something ive always wondered......does Plant trigger Reinforcements?  Ive read and heard that it does but never really noticed....it doesnt do DMG....so not sure it counts as "hitting" mobs?</p><p>With AA spec I have 3 "ae" type abilities that I know can trigger reinforcements...Blue AA, Blue AA AGI AE and slow casting green dmg+threat AE</p><p>The problem with relying on Reinforcements + our ghetto AEs is that  both Reinforcements and the AEs are not up enough to be a reliable means of AE tanking....especially in instances where every pull is AE.  And other classes are already frustrated enough with having slows runs that asking them to wait for my ghetto AE to be up is not reasonable.  I don't know of any SKs that have to wait on some ability to repop before each pull.....they just pull pull pull almost non-stop unless some healer actually cries "NO POWER".</p><p>Even still Reinforcements + ghetto AE is only good for snapping aggro which honestly is not where Guardian issues are.  We need something reliable that boosts our way of actually holding and maintaining aggro on AE fights.</p><p>.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This reminds me........something ive always wondered......does Plant trigger Reinforcements?  Ive read and heard that it does but never really noticed....it doesnt do DMG....so not sure it counts as "hitting" mobs?</p><p>With AA spec I have 3 "ae" type abilities that I know can trigger reinforcements...Blue AA, Blue AA AGI AE and slow casting green dmg+threat AE</p></blockquote><p>Plant triggers it, reinforcement procs on any melee attack, so it procs on plant.  It does not proc on sarnak racial ae, but it procs on one of the others, I forget which.  It doesn't proc on clickies, as they are not melee. </p><p>The green melee taunt is encounter only and not truely AoE threat, so I didn't include it in this list.  It is useful situationaly of course.</p>