Berserker: Tank or DPS?

[Belock]

<p>I've read through the posts and have seen people say that Berserkers have very nice DPS and others say that their dps is just above the tanks. </p><p>Has something changed over the years?  I'm just starting out and I made a Berserker for dps, but what I need to know is....</p><p>Are Berserkers better used as tanks or dps?  Is their dps comparible in a raid setting?  or Are they desired as a dps in a regular group?</p>

[Lorzus]

<p>Berserkers are tanks first. They can dps decently, but they are not typically considered a t1 dps class.</p><p>They are considered to be the flip of the guardian, more focused on offense than defense, but still one of the heavy tank classes.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Aldia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Berserkers are tanks first. They can dps decently, but they are not typically considered a t1 dps class.</p><p>They are considered to be the flip of the guardian, more focused on offense than defense, but still one of the heavy tank classes.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly. Tank first. Although they can put out decent DPS, they are no match against other "true" DPS classes.</p>

[Belock]

<p>Thank you. </p><p>What would be a good reference for tanking specs and tanking tips/ability rotations, etc?</p>

[TheSpin]

<p>I have one tip..  Learn when and how to use body pulls   (also known as Proxy pulls or proximity pulls)</p><p>When mobs are social but not linked, using a taunt or an arrow to pull will cause everything nearby to aggro even if it's part of another encounter.  Not everything is social, but the majority of mobs in dungeons are social.</p><p>Quick guide to body pulling.</p><p>1.  Inch your character close enough to allow only the target you intend to pull to see you.</p><p>2.  Once you've been spotted, run back to your group.  </p><p>**Do not use any taunts or other abilities until the entire encounter you are pulling is seperated from the other social encounters in the area.  Even a single target taunt on a mob away from the adds will trigger the social adds to come if any part of the encounter is still near them.</p>

[TeamVenture]

<p>often, i am out of arrows, so i cast destruction. then just gib the mobs.  seems like a good pull style and keeps the healers honest.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>TeamVenture wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>often, i am out of arrows, so i cast destruction. then just gib the mobs.  seems like a good pull style and keeps the healers honest.</p></blockquote><p>That right there is my favorite pull method of all.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>you forgot juggernaut</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>you forgot juggernaut</p></blockquote><p>Juggernaut is cast whenever it's up.</p>

[Elanjar]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TeamVenture wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>often, i am out of arrows, so i cast destruction. then just gib the mobs.  seems like a good pull style and keeps the healers honest.</p></blockquote><p>That right there is my favorite pull method of all.</p></blockquote><p>sometimes i wish i was an sk so i could use their version of gibe and then FD and lol at my healers</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Belock@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've read through the posts and have seen people say that Berserkers have very nice DPS and others say that their dps is just above the tanks. </p><p>Has something changed over the years?  I'm just starting out and I made a Berserker for dps, but what I need to know is....</p><p>Are Berserkers better used as tanks or dps?  Is their dps comparible in a raid setting?  or Are they desired as a dps in a regular group?</p></blockquote><p>They are only talking in relative terms about tanks.  Compared to real DPS classes they are bad DPS.</p>

[fbi]

<p>I started using ACT lately and realized my DPS is low, or at least I think it is. It's pretty much the same with the 'standard' AA zerker setup vs the one I was using (stance mastery.) The largest determining factor seems to be OFF v DEF stance.(I have all AD3s  save for one master. Most masters are 30+ pp, and they seem a fairly marginal upgrade for the cost.)Without the fabled epic, what kind of DPS should one expect solo against the training dummy? (sword/shield)In a trio (boxed dirge) against single target heroics?Against multiple mobs in a trio (with a fury and boxed dirge) I get around 3500 DPS with OW and Turmoil up, but against single mobs, especially  the named TSO bosses it's much less than that, which leads me to believe I'm doing something wrong. I do have a crappy one hander (I've been unable to complete my epic; tried last year with a group of friends, but we didn't have an enchanter or dirge and who have since scattered to the winds; I very much doubt I can do it with a PUG albeit the rest of my equipment is now much better.) I also am using the auto attack UI mod.Note: This is not in a group, as I don't PuG with my zerker, just the aforementioned trio.With fury and dirge buffs strength is in the 1000+ range.  Self buffed high 800s I think. This goes up and down as I try to balance avoidance with DPS gear.</p>

[Elanjar]

<p><cite>fbitt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I started using ACT lately and realized my DPS is low, or at least I think it is. It's pretty much the same with the 'standard' AA zerker setup vs the one I was using (stance mastery.) The largest determining factor seems to be OFF v DEF stance.(I have all AD3s  save for one master. Most masters are 30+ pp, and they seem a fairly marginal upgrade for the cost.)Without the fabled epic, what kind of DPS should one expect solo against the training dummy? (sword/shield)In a trio (boxed dirge) against single target heroics?Against multiple mobs in a trio (with a fury and boxed dirge) I get around 3500 DPS with OW and Turmoil up, but against single mobs, especially  the named TSO bosses it's much less than that, which leads me to believe I'm doing something wrong. I do have a crappy one hander (I've been unable to complete my epic; tried last year with a group of friends, but we didn't have an enchanter or dirge and who have since scattered to the winds; I very much doubt I can do it with a PUG albeit the rest of my equipment is now much better.) I also am using the auto attack UI mod.Note: This is not in a group, as I don't PuG with my zerker, just the aforementioned trio.With fury and dirge buffs strength is in the 1000+ range.  Self buffed high 800s I think. This goes up and down as I try to balance avoidance with DPS gear.</p></blockquote><p>hmmm maybe i did crap dps back then, but i'm pretty sure i was averaging less thank 2k before i had my fabled. After I got my fabled it went up to over 2k and i got better gear over time so i ended up averaging high 2k low 3k.</p>

[Haze]

<p>i don't use ACT; but i've been doing about 2900 - 3k dps in pickup levi raids (teir 2 armor'd, buffs are mastered, ca's are mostly adept 3, fabled weapon).</p><p>That being said, zerkers are tank first, melee dps 2nd (good for aoe encounters / off tanking)</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Even with Mythical, your DPS isn't going to be as high as you hope right out of the box. Just as your weapon plays a key part in your damage output, so does your overall situation:</p><p>AAs, both how many you have and whether you're spec'd to tank or to DPSGearGroup buffsHow Mastered out you areGroup makeup (which matters even more than your buffs)Content</p><p>It goes without saying, the more AAs you have, the better. But also most AA builds are mutually exclusive: You can tank well but do less DPS, you can do a lot of DPS but not necessarily tank as well, or you can do a little of both, but not be the best at either.</p><p>Your overall gear matters. Are you geared up to take the hits, or are you geared  to dish out the pain? There's not a whole lot of gear out there that lets you be an effective tank <em>and</em> put out DPS.</p><p>Group buffs play a key role. Do you have IA or Battle Cry from an Illy or Dirge? Do you even have a dirge? What buffs do your healers have that they're giving you?</p><p>How many masters? Goes without saying, you're going to do more damage with Master CAs than Adept IIIs.</p><p>What about group makeup? Do you have a brigand for Dispatch? Are Wizards in your group burninating your enemies before you can even swing your axe? Or is it a low DPS group where you easily out-parse the next best?</p><p>Are you fighting easy mobs that are easy to hit? Hard mobs that like to dodge your attacks? Lots of mobs where your AE prowess can shine?</p><p>All of this plays a role. So to arbitrarily say "I'm doing X DPS, is that good or bad?" is meaningless without more insight. But the more, the better.</p>

[Windowlicker]

<p>Another vote for tank-first</p>

[Lleren]

<p>Tank first, though if a group has been advertising for dps for awhile can sometimes get a slot that way.  Take notice when someone looks for anything for a slot, it tends to mean they not gonna be real picky.</p><p>The last three 'zerker fights can be PuG'd in TSO</p>

[Kunaak]

<p>we're tanks first, thats our role.</p><p>we can be DPS, but not really topping the parse DPS.</p><p>with mythical, duel wielding, alot of DPS gear, I usually end up somewhere in the middle of the parse, if its a single target mob. if its a multiple encounter mob, I can get pretty high up there on the parse, but only cause we do rather well at AOE encounters.</p><p>I typically outparse dirges and brawlers, but rarely true DPS scouts, unless they were just spacing out. I dont consider myself great for high parsing, but I know how to push the damage in raid, when I got a chance to. but in the end, I am always a tank first, OT in my case. DPS is never my concern, so much as just holding aggro, and making sure those around me are surviving.</p>

[Sreneth]

<p>/shrug, my Zerker (<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=368134111" target="_blank">Reathan</a>) doesn't do great DPS but he isn't geared well. But on raids I see Kurgan (Hi Kurgan!) Mythical full fabled, topping the list and hitting 6-7k range easy on encounters with more then one mob so I don't know.</p><p>Gear has alot to do with it just as much as play style, spell quality, just as Xalmat said.  I play my zerker as a tank.  I focus on gear that has high mit/agi/str hp/mp/ Def / parry / crit in that order.  I might not be the best DPSer, but I can tank all the TSO group instances with one healer.</p><p>EDITED FOR SPELLING AND GRAMMER</p>

[Elanjar]

<p>Group makeup is huge. I dont usually have a dirge on our raids, so im usually like 6th or 7th on the parse (after all the scouts basically). The other day though I had a dirge for once and I was either #1 or #2 (after a ranger) on the parse. Wowie zowie i need a dirge from  now on.</p>

[Luag]

<p>there is no OR you are both</p>

[Bremer]

You can do more DPS than a crappy DD with a Templar, but he still remains a healer.

[Axxe]

<p>Eh, all I have to say is, ... burst-aoe-dps - that's what the berserker is and will always reign on top within. </p><p>                                                                                         <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Bremer]

For burst DPS I'd prefer a Wizard/Warlock/Conjuror or similar.

[Elanjar]

<p><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>For burst DPS I'd prefer a Wizard/Warlock/Conjuror or similar.</blockquote><p>conjy or swashy FTW imo</p>

[Axxe]

<p>Eh, I'd like to have a 8 second DPS off, involving six or more targets with any class in the game, ... bet I'd win, pending on the person and their gear obviously.</p><p>... Notice I Said <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Burst</strong></span>-<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>AoE</strong></span> DPS, not just burst-dps. (:</p>

[Beghauns]

<p>Content has a lot to do with it as well take shard of hate for instance I tank it do about 4k-5k dps on a few mob, let our zerker tank it he can grab more mob or just do the amount I do and top the parse with 12k</p>

[Xita]

<p>saw the question about DPS with the different weapons...</p><p>Pre-fabled I think I as running around 1700k, gear matched too maybe 15% fabled 75% legendary, same on CA's</p><p>   Some notes:</p><p>   Groups were spotty and often i did not have good utility classes dropping that number to 1200</p><p>   Generally in offensive stance with shield</p><p>   Was using NSS</p><p>With fabled epic about 3200 seemed a good number</p><p>   Some notes:</p><p>   Generally was 1hs + shield</p><p>   Tanked in offensive stance most of the time</p><p>   Gear was mostly T1-T2 RoK raidable plus some nice instance gear</p><p>   Generally had a dirge in group</p><p>With Myth, the same mobs, I have been running around 5500</p><p>   Some notes:</p><p>   Unless the stuff is hitting the fan, I dual wield in offensive stance while tanking...</p><p>   I generally require a coercer or dirge to be in a group, in a raid of course I have both...</p><p>   Gear is a blend of T3/T4 TSO with a few pieces of fabled RoK thrown in... not the best but pretty good</p><p>   I pull multiple x4's a lot more now, which means more AOE damage than I could do when I did not have a myth.</p><p>Please note that my experience with getting a myth is not typical as our entire guild got ALL of our myths together the same night, so it basically boosted our total guild effectivesness by about 25%. I would expect a zerker with a fabled supported by a raid with myths would enjoy dps around 4200-4500</p>

[Arinwulf]

<p>I will never understand some people's thinking I guess.</p><p>Tell me, if a berserker is a "tank first" then what is a guardian?</p><p>It makes sense that a guardian would be "tank first" and if there is differentiation from Berserkers, then berserkers would be "dps first". Otherwise, why have the berserker class.</p><p>When EQ2 first released that is how it was. Guardians were the tanks, Berserkers were dps with the ability to tank but not tank as good as guardian.  Then they nerfed the hell out of berserkers to the point that the only thing a berserker can claim for themselves is an anemic AOE. </p><p>Berserkers should be the king of melee dps.  Preds, being a hybrid with a bunch of ancillary abilities, should exceed berserkers on range, but not melee.</p><p>SOE had it right, then got it wrong and now they are way down the path of foolishness with respect to the Berserker class.  Those of you who have drunk the kool-aid have accepted their inane philosophy.</p><p>Virtually every other fantasy based mmog out there gives plate wearing offensive warriors (berserkers) the ability to do tremendous damage in melee. No other game gives hybrid fighters the melee damage advantage over berserkers.</p><p>This has been and continues to be SOE's longest running philosophical blunder.</p><p>If you want to "tank" play a guardian.  If you have a berserker, then you should bloody well have the ability to hit things close up harder than any other class.</p><p>EQ2 has gotten too close to the marginalization of plate fighters mentality of EQ1. The reason most folks went from EQ1 to EQ2 was because of that ridiculous mentality.</p><p>Any of you that actually have gotten out there to play other fantasy mmogs knows what I am talking about. The rest of you... your world is small, your view is warped and your thoughts on the matter are absurd.  IMHO</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you want to "tank" play a guardian.</p></blockquote><p>No thank you. I'll stick to my Berserker; it's significantly more fun<em> because</em> it's more challenging. And Guardians aren't in as good shape as you seem to think.</p>

[Arinwulf]

<p>Well, if guardians aren't in good shape, then that speaks to SOE's inability to properly shepherd this game. Guardians are the single simplest class to define and manage.  Maybe if SOE wasn't so interested in blurring the line between guardian and berserker, then the problem wouldn't exist.</p><p>SOE has a long history of making HUGE mistakes running their games.  EQ 1 and the forced group, incredibliy long quest mob respawns and absurd time sinks,  SWG... well lets just say SWG is the poster child for how not to run a mmog based on a popular movie franchise. and finally EQ2, the class balance problem.. which really isn't about balance, its really about (or should be about) differentiation.</p><p>I play and have played just about every fantasy mmog out there and without a doubt the worst people for running a game is SOE.  They start out well, good concepts and then things just start falling apart because of some very flawed thinking.  Its almost like within SOE's live team inner-sanctum there is someone calling the shots who's real agenda is to sabotage the work of the people who first develop their games.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Really the only reason to bring a Guardian on a raid at all is the slightly higher mit than any other plate tank, slightly better defense, and because they have the best single-target snap aggro abilities of all tanks. They have horrible sustained aggro, horrible AoE aggro, no AoE snaps, and can only put out high DPS when they sacrifice their defense (dual wield in Offense stance) and have a stacked group in their favor (Dirge + Coercer at a minimum).</p><p>Their mythical right now is total garbage compared to every other fighter. Hell I dare say that Berserkers have the <em>best</em> mythical out of all Fighters.</p><p>Just like it's very easy for us to cap +DPS and +Haste, it's very easy for them to cap +Parry and +Defense. Hell I can cap Parry and Defense in Offense stance with the right group makeup; Defense stance I'm <em>well</em> above the cap on both abilities.</p>

[Halo of G4]

<p>I've had a zerk since the start of the game back in 04.</p><p>As a DPS or Tank? Well were most def suppose to be a tank when it comes to groups, but the original design of the class is suppose to be an around both. Problem with that though is when you have a unique mixed class, then most groups tend to choose people who are solid tanks (shadowknights, paladins, guardians) or solid DPS's (mage/scout). We're a tank class that heavily relies on speed, aggression, and constant pummeling on our enemies. But now in the past 2 or so years, most of our buffs/abilities have become useless thanks to armor that have haste/dps buffs.</p><p>Right now i just resubscribed to EQ2 since last summer. Finding a group is now a nightmare for Zerks unless we're geared in T2-T4 armor and have masters (sadly i only have expert and only a few masters). Since I only have RoK armor, going into a TSO zone will get me slaughtered instantly, and finding a group for endgame RoK content takes hours (hurray for SoE not merging servers and forcing a thinning of the population in each one).</p><p>IMO I would wait until the next expansion to make a Zerk. It will be a new start for endgame content, and you won't need endgame armor from the previous to be part of it.  If you  make one now and reach level 80 with your new zerk, it's going to be a hassle to find a group. And when you do, you'll probably be wanted for as a tank in TSO content, and where if you don't have endgame tank armor, then you'll be slaughtered and tossed aside by your group for a Guardian/Shadowknight/Paladin or a fable geared Zerk.</p>

[Ashroh]

<p><cite>Halo of G4 wrote</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you  make one now and reach level 80 with your new zerk, it's going to be a hassle to find a group.</p></blockquote><p>Really, is it that bad ? In the process of finding the right class for me, I've read "good luck finding groups" on every single class forum or pages of demotivating stuff. Really if you spend an afternoon on the forums, the courage of starting any class is pretty low. It's so heard to judge what is right and what is the usual "my grass is less green" debate.</p><p>Not that I want to say that what you are saying is not correct, if you catch my drift. I'm just looking to a postitive reaction to kind balance your negative one so I can feel better making my toon tonigh haha =)</p>

[Rrec]

<p><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TeamVenture wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>often, i am out of arrows, so i cast destruction. then just gib the mobs.  seems like a good pull style and keeps the healers honest.</p></blockquote><p>That right there is my favorite pull method of all.</p></blockquote><p>sometimes i wish i was an sk so i could use their version of gibe and then FD and lol at my healers</p></blockquote><p>take up tinkering then  you get some FD's</p>

[Rrec]

<p><cite>Axxe@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Eh, I'd like to have a 8 second DPS off, involving six or more targets with any class in the game, ... bet I'd win, pending on the person and their gear obviously.</p><p>... Notice I Said <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Burst</strong></span>-<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>AoE</strong></span> DPS, not just burst-dps. (:</p></blockquote><p>I agree  with axxe  here  if  you wanna see  burst AE dps  should run nagejas with a good  zerker...  dont forget a dirge  if  you wanna see  something special</p>