One handed Fencer spec. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Kidou

04-03-2009, 07:54 PM

After leaving for about, a year, 2 years maybe? I return back to EQ2 to my Swashbuckler. She's 38 right now, and I'm specced for the Wisdom line.Of course, I'm told that the dual weild spec is better, but I don't really wanna do the 'Steryotypical rogue' spec. Am I really gimping myself, or can you make the 1 hand spec work?

Giddo

04-05-2009, 06:23 AM

Several years ago there were 2 types of one hand wieldable weapons. One handers and dual wielders. One handers typically had significantly higher DR's than dualwielders since you could only wield one weapon when using a one hander. During that time the fencer line was a very good line due to the combination of the double attack and the higher DR of the one handed weapon.Sony has since done away with the dual wield designation and all single hand wieldeable weapons are called one handers and can be dual wielded(does that make sense) Some weapons are designated primary only due to how powerul they are(epics), but a second weapon can still be used in the offhand.Now all that being said, dual wielding gives you basically a 100% DA chance because you always swing with both weapons(try and match your delays). In addition onc you start getting gear with double attack on it, both weapons can double attack giving you the chance to hit 4x in one combat round. However to compensate for the increased power that they gave one handed weapons after the dw revamp they added a mechanic that increases your weapon delay by 33% when you are dual wielding. I.E. if you have 2 4 second weapons equipped they become 5.33 second delay(assuming 0 haste).Long story short, the only way the fencing line beats out dual wielding is if you have one very very good weapon in relation to the other. It has to be a pretty large discrepancy in weapon quality though... You can make the spec work, but you will not be at your peak dps efficiency.Sikdom

TheSpin

04-05-2009, 01:58 PM

Ok... here's my take on the wisdom line under all of the new changes.The main reason I believe that the 'elite' does not use this line is because they are able to consistantly reach 100% or more double attack without it.Until your double attack is capped it's still a decent line to take.

Giddo

04-05-2009, 09:35 PM

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok... here's my take on the wisdom line under all of the new changes.The main reason I believe that the 'elite' does not use this line is because they are able to consistantly reach 100% or more double attack without it.Until your double attack is capped it's still a decent line to take.</blockquote>Based on this difference of opinion I did some calculations. I am unsure of what the wis line da% is, but i am going to go with 60%.Now assume you have one weapon that does 100 dpm, neglecting all haste, dps buffs, crit whatever and just calculating for DA, that weapon does 160 dpm at 60% DA.Now assume you have 2 weapons with 100 dpm each dual wielding. That is 200 dpm. But you have to lower their effective dpm by 25% due to the 33% increase in delay. 75% of 200 is 150. Now let me explain that. Delay increases by 33% for dual wielding. That is a delay multiplier of 1.33. The reciprocal of 1.33 is .75. Thus the corrected DR of the weapon is 75% while dual wielding.Let me further explain that. Using simple numbers to keep things simple. Take a weapon that is 100-100/ 4 delay, the DDR is 50 on said weapon. Now add the 33% delay from DW, the DR drops to 37.5. 37.5/50=.75(there are rounding issues here, but using the full numbers it is indeed.75)So what this means is you are right.. sort of. It doesn't take"elite" 100% da to beat fencer, it takes 14% DA from other pieces of gear to compensate for the increase in delay...14%. That is actually 13.3% rounded up. This is calculated by dividing 160(dr with 60% DA) by .75, which puts you at 213.333... This all of course neglects stats/effects/procs etc on your offhand weapon. So in short at level 38 or whatever, fencer may be a good spec. When you get higher in level and DA gear is more available, the DW setup will beat any fencer setup you can come up with once you hit a very low amount of DA from gear. 14% breaks even and just runs away after that.Now if the DA from fencer is greater than 60(i don't remember), then you can resubstitute that number in here to find the break even point., but even at100% the break point will be 67% and not 100. Hell at 70% its 27% at 80% its 40%.Sikdom

OutcastBlade

04-06-2009, 03:58 AM

ElsaRat

04-06-2009, 05:52 PM

There was a extensive discussion of this a while back in this thread here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=426762The conclusion was that at low levels, using a single weapon with the wisdom line worked just fine. It was only towards the end game that dual wielding was unambiguously better. I tested a couple set ups in my late 20's and found using a single weapon with coule worked very well, and I've used it since.

TheSpin

04-06-2009, 06:16 PM

<cite>ElsaRat wrote:</cite><blockquote>There was a extensive discussion of this a while back in this thread here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=426762The conclusion was that at low levels, using a single weapon with the wisdom line worked just fine. It was only towards the end game that dual wielding was unambiguously better. I tested a couple set ups in my late 20's and found using a single weapon with coule worked very well, and I've used it since.</blockquote>This basically how I feel about the situation myself. The OP said he was only level 38 so going into all this end game stuff just wasn't necessary in my opinion.I actually play a brigand and I have never been interested in wisdom spec, but on a swashy I would consider it because of the avoidence boost and you guys have less stuns and actually get attacked when fighting stuff.

TygerMeow

04-06-2009, 06:27 PM

Brigs have *more* stuns than we do? Why the heck aren't the brigs I occasionally see in PUGs doing more to slow down incoming DPS?This is off topic, but my current goal in OoA is to get the void brutes down to zero knockbacks solo (no other rogues or chanters). On the last two runs, I've held them to 1 collectively, although on the last run, we left a lot of roamers and that one knockback cost us a wipe. However, I've got their knockback timing down now (mentally, not with ACT) and I'm sure I can hold them to zero knockbacks ZW with my own stuns.I can't imagine the beast I'd be on CC with more stuns. Holy cow.

TheSpin

04-06-2009, 06:35 PM

<cite>TygerMeow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brigs have *more* stuns than we do? Why the heck aren't the brigs I occasionally see in PUGs doing more to slow down incoming DPS?This is off topic, but my current goal in OoA is to get the void brutes down to zero knockbacks solo (no other rogues or chanters). On the last two runs, I've held them to 1 collectively, although on the last run, we left a lot of roamers and that one knockback cost us a wipe. However, I've got their knockback timing down now (mentally, not with ACT) and I'm sure I can hold them to zero knockbacks ZW with my own stuns.I can't imagine the beast I'd be on CC with more stuns. Holy cow.</blockquote>Good question... when I'm in a non ideal group and there are issues with aggro or whatever, I usually purposely pick a target the tank is not fighting and shut him down with my stuns/roots for about 15-17 seconds. After that if he's not dead I use lay low and swap over to the tank's target.Many scouts don't use cheap shot much at all when in a group, and many brigands just think of themselves as debuffs and dps and don't really think about their stuns and the power they have.Another example, the last boss in one of the Befallen instances... the one that hits harder the lower health he has... When I fight him I turn him when he's at about 20% with walk the plank, and then force him to face away from the tank for the last 6 seconds of his life. Works like a charm. Why no other brigands do this kind of stuff is beyond me.

Giddo

04-06-2009, 08:43 PM

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElsaRat wrote:</cite><blockquote>There was a extensive discussion of this a while back in this thread here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=426762The conclusion was that at low levels, using a single weapon with the wisdom line worked just fine. It was only towards the end game that dual wielding was unambiguously better. I tested a couple set ups in my late 20's and found using a single weapon with coule worked very well, and I've used it since.</blockquote>This basically how I feel about the situation myself. The OP said he was only level 38 so going into all this end game stuff just wasn't necessary in my opinion.I actually play a brigand and I have never been interested in wisdom spec, but on a swashy I would consider it because of the avoidence boost and you guys have less stuns and actually get attacked when fighting stuff.</blockquote>Unfortunately this is not what you originally said. You said it takes capped DA to beat fencer which is simply untrue. While I agree that at lower levels fencer is a good line, and said as much;more people than the op are reading this thread. So to say that fencer beats DW unless you are at 100% DA is false and should be noted as such so as not to confuse others who are interested in this topic.Sikdom

TheSpin

04-06-2009, 09:01 PM

<cite>Giddo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElsaRat wrote:</cite><blockquote>There was a extensive discussion of this a while back in this thread here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=426762The conclusion was that at low levels, using a single weapon with the wisdom line worked just fine. It was only towards the end game that dual wielding was unambiguously better. I tested a couple set ups in my late 20's and found using a single weapon with coule worked very well, and I've used it since.</blockquote>This basically how I feel about the situation myself. The OP said he was only level 38 so going into all this end game stuff just wasn't necessary in my opinion.I actually play a brigand and I have never been interested in wisdom spec, but on a swashy I would consider it because of the avoidence boost and you guys have less stuns and actually get attacked when fighting stuff.</blockquote>Unfortunately this is not what you originally said. You said it takes capped DA to beat fencer which is simply untrue. While I agree that at lower levels fencer is a good line, and said as much;more people than the op are reading this thread. So to say that fencer beats DW unless you are at 100% DA is false and should be noted as such so as not to confuse others who are interested in this topic.Sikdom</blockquote>Please don't make this into a petty argument. The OP never said that DPS was his only concern. He asked if he could make it work. Also, I said that I believed the elite didn't take the line because of the double attack, but saying you believe something to be true doesn't mean that you claim to know it is true. I do claim to know that the elite do not take the wisdom line, but I only believed it was primarily because of the double attack. Having an extreme double attack without this line is the single biggest reason that this AA line would become redundant to take.So while I may have been misinformed on my post about the reasoning, the post itself is accurate. I stand by my final statment in that line. Until your double attack is capped it's still a decent line to take. Maybe it won't do the absolute most dps, but it will work.

OutcastBlade

04-07-2009, 01:45 AM

....No offense but that is a really dumb comment."Maybe it won't do the most dps, but it will work." No way.... Really? Of course it works. It works because you can still hit mobs with it. The OP asked if he is gimping himself and the simple answer is Yes. At level 38 it doesn't matter but gaining levels in this game is easy now and sooner or later he is going to be level 80, and this information is going to make an impression with how he specs come level 80.By no means do the "elite" dual wield only because they can cap double attack. I groups I only get up to 70% double attack and thats with IA, and well let's say I have no problem doing 4k+ auto attack dps on instance named. You don't need to cap double attack to get better results by using two weapons, because you have a chance to double attack on BOTH weapons, AND you ALWAYS have a chance to at least hit twice, where as with Fencer you only get about a 60-70 percent chance to hit twice.Fencing spec is good for soloing and thats it, and even then dual wielding "still works." So why not just go dual wielding so you can easily transition between soloing and grouping without having to respec? Also why not boost your stats a little more by getting two weapons instead of just one?You are feeding the guy complete falsities and that is the problem we have with what you said. Not because we just simply have a difference of opinion but because you are just simply incorrect.

BoxyBrown27

04-07-2009, 08:57 PM

I actually tested it experimentally once just to prove a point to someone1h at 100% (gear plus wis spec) DA = 1071 dps 236 hits 3:09DW at 32% (gear only) DA = 1064 Dps 246 hits 3:14now thats just using autoattack not using poison, and using the exact same equipment with the exception of the addition to adding a second weapon. and thats not 1 fight, thats 5 of each averaged together. so your only real confounding variable is procs, which i didnt write down but were pretty close.So if we look at the two there is an inverse relationship. Take the wis spec for example, as you increase from the 68% to 100% (0% to 32% DW) you are going to see less and less dps gains of 1h over DW. That is becasue DW is catching up. At the point you hit 100% you break even. over 100% (32% if your DW) 1h actually looses DPS to DW. So the people that say dw blows 1h out of the water are correct... but im going to guess they are around 50% self buffed. and are comparing the ceiling effect you get from fencing.beyond just auto attack timing is going to be vastly differnt from 1h to 2h. with 1h you pretty much always have an attack up but there is less room for error. with 2h you can spam 2 and still have about .5 seconds on average to play with per swing so its a bit more forgiving.Having said that... thats assuming you solo most of the time. as other people have said if you group/raid then you are going to be getting some buffs ia, dirge buffs etc. (of course thats assuming you get IA over an assassin, ranger, brig,etc). so given the group you might to be getting an extra 10-25 DA, which of course is going to push the required self buffed DA to the break point down. Hope that helps!

Froed20

04-09-2009, 06:11 PM

It depends on what weapons and gear you have. Of course, the higher you can get double attack up with duel wield, the better it will go, but there's also a significant sacrifice in stats and procs that you miss out on by fencing with one weapon. On the other hand, especially since you are still leveling up, it's nice to only have to obtain one weapon. I'm no math wiz and all the technical number-crunching talk just washes right over my head, but I've tested both styles for months on both ends, and I've found personally that duel wield seems to go smoother. Honestly, it's not a humongous difference between the two, and I wouldn't go so far to say that you'd be completely gimped by taking the fencer line, but you wouldn't be performing at top form either. Long story short, while you are leveling, it wouldn't hurt to fence as it requires you to only find one decent weapon. Once you get to end game though, I'd respec and put those points elsewhere as DA gear and better weapons become more readily available.

TheSpin

04-09-2009, 07:42 PM

<cite>Kanolth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>....No offense but that is a really dumb comment."Maybe it won't do the most dps, but it will work." No way.... Really? Of course it works. It works because you can still hit mobs with it. The OP asked if he is gimping himself and the simple answer is Yes. At level 38 it doesn't matter but gaining levels in this game is easy now and sooner or later he is going to be level 80, and this information is going to make an impression with how he specs come level 80.By no means do the "elite" dual wield only because they can cap double attack. I groups I only get up to 70% double attack and thats with IA, and well let's say I have no problem doing 4k+ auto attack dps on instance named. You don't need to cap double attack to get better results by using two weapons, because you have a chance to double attack on BOTH weapons, AND you ALWAYS have a chance to at least hit twice, where as with Fencer you only get about a 60-70 percent chance to hit twice.Fencing spec is good for soloing and thats it, and even then dual wielding "still works." So why not just go dual wielding so you can easily transition between soloing and grouping without having to respec? Also why not boost your stats a little more by getting two weapons instead of just one?You are feeding the guy complete falsities and that is the problem we have with what you said. Not because we just simply have a difference of opinion but because you are just simply incorrect.</blockquote>You're looking at it completely from one aspect because I know that's how you see the game... dps dps dps I love my parse too and it's my number 1 priority, but it's not my only priority.A level 38 player is probably going to be soloing as much or possibly even more than he is grouping. The wisdom line gives the extra avoidence and some extra abilities that may not fall under the 'dps' category, but the added surviveability could definately make the line worth taking.

Kidou

04-10-2009, 12:29 AM

Well I'm 49 now. >.>I tried to respec to the STR line and I didn't really see anything that gave me more right now.For my ideal, "Balanced Offense/Defense" rogueish type character, Wisdom does seem very awesome. Not to mention, I make a great tank in a pinch.If what everyone is telling me is true, I should probually hold off respeccing to a more 'real' DPS spec once I hit 80 and start stacking gear.Though I'm curious. Could you possibly still make a Wisdom Swashy work, even at 80? Not an expert or anything, but having natrual double attack means, couldn't you stack up on other stats?

Lethe5683

04-10-2009, 06:43 AM

It's superior for defense and adaptibility but inferior for maximized DPS.

Lethe5683

04-10-2009, 06:45 AM

<cite>Kidou wrote:</cite><blockquote>Though I'm curious. Could you possibly still make a Wisdom Swashy work, even at 80? Not an expert or anything, but having natrual double attack means, couldn't you stack up on other stats?</blockquote>Yes it's possible to do well with wis spec at 80. You will never have quite as much DPS as dual wielding but you get significantly higher avoidance and accuracy.