the big nerf rumor .. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

LygerT

04-07-2009, 07:24 PM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>problem being even the SKs on the team won't acknowledge a problem so that leaves other tanks to choose for you, what areas you should be taking a hit in. so, when and if the time comes, you only have yourselves to blame by ignoring the new shiney star you have gotten next to your name just for being the class that you are.</blockquote>Here is my take on it. All I have been hearing is SK's are OP they need a nerf! Mainly attributed to hate and damage.The problem for me is what I'm seeing vs what I'm hearing. I only run heroic instances, on of my highest parses I've seen was around 2000 DPS, average though I'd say is more like 1500dps. What I'm hearing is 10 and 20 k DPS or something like that. I'm not raiding nor do I ever plan to, so that's my guess on where it is. Cause I've never seen anything close in a group of 6.So is it the way items affect SK or their spells? Cause they are nerfing the spells, if it's items, shouldn't it be items? Or is it buffs from other classes?Hate I think is where it should be for all tanks. I still get aggro rips if people are trying to damage. I have to work to keep it. Sometimes i lose it.</blockquote>yes, you are right. the average and lower end tanks there is no issue with, if any tank can do a heroic instance then everything is fine in the world with a few exceptions but i will ignore those for now because they mainly pertain to the latter examples i will give.in TSO you now have an abundance of "hybrid" gear, gear that drops from endgame bosses to avatars that has gobs of heal crit, spell crit, melee crit and double attack on it, all tied up with a damage proc on top for a cherry, these types of items are common now. so you see how much you can benefit from a single piece of gear? quite a fair amount. now i will give my own example from the same item, sitting under the cap for DA the double attack would help marginally until one of my procs goes off and i am over 100%, for crit, i usually sit at 100% so anything more has a severe gimped return, the proc damage and spell crit is all i would really look for mainly so the rest of the stats are all secondary or useless and the spell crit is very marginal since we have no spells and its only use would be to help increase proc damage.so you start to see where a warrior will be all that he can be mid TSO, crusaders can continue to build well into the expansion. i might almost say that lesser equipped zerks fare better than similarly outfitted SKs do but at the endgame raid level the roles reverse. all i am trying to do is figure out how to shift them closer together so keep bias out of play, except no one is willing to help me with it, instead they force me into my passive aggressive role once again.

BMonkeeus

04-07-2009, 07:47 PM

Good gawd...

Nuhus

04-07-2009, 09:08 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>yes, you are right. the average and lower end tanks there is no issue with, if any tank can do a heroic instance then everything is fine in the world with a few exceptions but i will ignore those for now because they mainly pertain to the latter examples i will give.in TSO you now have an abundance of "hybrid" gear, gear that drops from endgame bosses to avatars that has gobs of heal crit, spell crit, melee crit and double attack on it, all tied up with a damage proc on top for a cherry, these types of items are common now. so you see how much you can benefit from a single piece of gear? quite a fair amount. now i will give my own example from the same item, sitting under the cap for DA the double attack would help marginally until one of my procs goes off and i am over 100%, for crit, i usually sit at 100% so anything more has a severe gimped return, the proc damage and spell crit is all i would really look for mainly so the rest of the stats are all secondary or useless and the spell crit is very marginal since we have no spells and its only use would be to help increase proc damage.so you start to see where a warrior will be all that he can be mid TSO, crusaders can continue to build well into the expansion. i might almost say that lesser equipped zerks fare better than similarly outfitted SKs do but at the endgame raid level the roles reverse. all i am trying to do is figure out how to shift them closer together so keep bias out of play, except no one is willing to help me with it, instead they force me into my passive aggressive role once again.</blockquote>I'm not sure exactly what they were thinking on the now scrapped nerfs/tanking changes on test. They could have simply raised the taunts up to par and if they wanted to discourage offensive stance being used for taking hits they could have made a massive -defensive number on it.They attemped to nerf gear, but people didn't like it. Now I'm wondering if it's just best to make the changes they need on the next expansion. Mobs are toned up with quite a few hitpoints so I can understand the reluctance of players to accept the change.The most annoying trend for me is the arguments of "this class has x and we only have y to work with". There still needs to be diversity between tanks to add to the flavor of each. Those discussions don't get to the root of the issues - as tanks as a whole, which is what is on the developers minds. The changes they are going to make will affect all of us. I certainly don't want any tank class to be a cookie cutter tank, with no difference from any other.The devs will be the ones that choose to implement changes, I think they had some horrible implementations in the scrapped updates. The best we can do is let them know what we think about them and alternative ideas.Some things, I think they believe every class is plagued with. They took down the amount of buffs we had because people complain of too many buffs. Which is laughable for an SK. Yet not so much for a warden.IMO they really need to approch such large changes carefully and with good reason behind them. I think the reason they failed in what they were trying to accomplish is they tried to address general complaints to a subset of classes that never had those complaints.In the end, tanks as a whole are in this together. The bickering that's been going on between classes, isn't going to convey what everyone really wants.

Uggli

04-08-2009, 11:06 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>problem being even the SKs on the team won't acknowledge a problem so that leaves other tanks to choose for you, what areas you should be taking a hit in. so, when and if the time comes, you only have yourselves to blame by ignoring the new shiney star you have gotten next to your name just for being the class that you are.</blockquote>Here is my take on it. All I have been hearing is SK's are OP they need a nerf! Mainly attributed to hate and damage.The problem for me is what I'm seeing vs what I'm hearing. I only run heroic instances, on of my highest parses I've seen was around 2000 DPS, average though I'd say is more like 1500dps. What I'm hearing is 10 and 20 k DPS or something like that. I'm not raiding nor do I ever plan to, so that's my guess on where it is. Cause I've never seen anything close in a group of 6.So is it the way items affect SK or their spells? Cause they are nerfing the spells, if it's items, shouldn't it be items? Or is it buffs from other classes?Hate I think is where it should be for all tanks. I still get aggro rips if people are trying to damage. I have to work to keep it. Sometimes i lose it.</blockquote>yes, you are right. the average and lower end tanks there is no issue with, if any tank can do a heroic instance then everything is fine in the world with a few exceptions but i will ignore those for now because they mainly pertain to the latter examples i will give.in TSO you now have an abundance of "hybrid" gear, gear that drops from endgame bosses to avatars that has gobs of heal crit, spell crit, melee crit and double attack on it, all tied up with a damage proc on top for a cherry, these types of items are common now. so you see how much you can benefit from a single piece of gear? quite a fair amount. now i will give my own example from the same item, sitting under the cap for DA the double attack would help marginally until one of my procs goes off and i am over 100%, for crit, i usually sit at 100% so anything more has a severe gimped return, the proc damage and spell crit is all i would really look for mainly so the rest of the stats are all secondary or useless and the spell crit is very marginal since we have no spells and its only use would be to help increase proc damage.so you start to see where a warrior will be all that he can be mid TSO, crusaders can continue to build well into the expansion. i might almost say that lesser equipped zerks fare better than similarly outfitted SKs do but at the endgame raid level the roles reverse. all i am trying to do is figure out how to shift them closer together so keep bias out of play, except no one is willing to help me with it, instead they force me into my passive aggressive role once again.</blockquote>The thing you forget is that gear had NEVER been designed around helping the hybrids until now, they always had to sacrifice in one direction to gain in another. SK's and Pallies are just now catching up to the warriors with TSO, which is why people like cryger are all over other classes forums spewing nonsense. He's just unhappy because he has to share the tank slots with other tanks now, and skill is the determining factor of who gets in, no longer just because of what class you picked. Which is the way it should be.As for SK DPS being over powered, I'm still on the fence for that one my self. I do not raid, but I put out pretty good DPS for the heroic content with the people I play with. I'm usually #1 or #2 on the parse vs T1 DPS. But the people I group with tend to not be as skilled or a well geared as I am, not that I'm really well geared. When in a PUG with some equally skilled DPSers, I usually get smoked on the parse by T1 DPS/T2, usually coming in #2-#3. And if they are mythical/raid equipped players I stuggle to maintain on the top of the hate list.If the issue is SK raid DPS, I suggest you stop crying about the SK class, and start crying about the buffs that are getting SK's to that "over powered" status. Maybe there are a few things that need a cap, or a few buff spells that need an adjustment to balance it for all tanks. Maybe suggest ways to make stacking more fighters a viable option for groups/raids. I've personally PM'd a couple devs on this topic my self as the group I run with tends to end up with 2 tanks.

Bruener

04-08-2009, 03:26 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote</cite><blockquote>so you start to see where a warrior will be all that he can be mid TSO, crusaders can continue to build well into the expansion. i might almost say that lesser equipped zerks fare better than similarly outfitted SKs do but at the endgame raid level the roles reverse. all i am trying to do is figure out how to shift them closer together so keep bias out of play, except no one is willing to help me with it, instead they force me into my passive aggressive role once again.</blockquote>This is exactly what is present. Because they are not hybrids Warriors and Brawlers have a much easier time capping their potential. When you get to the top 1% things start to change. Crusaders, because they are hybrids, the issue that held them back before provides for a much higher ceiling. Warriors don't take advantage of a STACKED group like Crusaders do. Example, having a Troub/Dirge/Illu in the same group for a Warrior is not going to be as beneficial for Warriors and Brawlers as it is for Crusaders since they are hybrids...both Spells and Melee. However, Warriors and Brawlers get more out of having the simple combo of Dirge + Coercer, or Dirge + Illu than what Crusaders do. What is a crutch for Crusaders in the amount of dps increasing abilities they have...becomes a strength eventually. Vice versa, what is a Strength for Warriors and Brawlers becomes a crutch eventually.As a SK on raids now I can finally get my DA capped, my melee crit is still sitting around 60-70%, spell crits are around 90-100%, haste is usually high around 180-200% depending on the group I am in, and DPS mod is lower around 70-100% depending on the group I am in. I am usually in a mage style group with a troub and illu since really stacking double bards up doesn't happen often.So I guess if you can say Warriors can cap much faster and easier than Crusaders how can you complain that the Crusader ceiling is higher? Once again you cannot expect to have the best of both worlds.

LygerT

04-08-2009, 03:29 PM

<cite>Uggliey wrote:</cite><blockquote> I've personally PM'd a couple devs on this topic my self as the group I run with tends to end up with 2 tanks.</blockquote>it started out in a way i had envisioned with the tank changes allowing more tanks to be useful without peeling aggro and annoying themselves and the MT by bouncing the mobs back and forth. after a while on test it evolved to something a bit different, something that removed choices from tanking.at least i think that's what you are referring to anyways, if you mean adding duties for an offtank in heroic instances, well don't hold your breath for that.

Uggli

04-08-2009, 04:15 PM

Naa my idea was something a bit broader in scope. Could be applied to any classes that have stacking issues. Below is a copy of one PM I sent. It's not about fighter balance at all really, but about addressing the fact that having more than one fighter in a group had a negative impact on the group in almost all situations. Though it is more of a feature that would be added with an expansion, I hope they consider something along these lines.<hr />Hello, Here is an idea I had to address group/raids to invite more than one tank. This idea can also be pushed across to other class types to address "stacking" issues. (2 druids, 2 shammies, 2 flanking DPS, ect ect) Fighter Phalanx Ability. Triggers a new window for fighters in the group/raid only. The Main Tank triggers it anytime once the group/raid is formed. The additional tanks, max of 3 (MT +2), then click a response to it. The responses do the following....1) Increase survivability for the MT. Either through direct damage reduction, mitigation, avoidance, or all 3. This should work about as good as adding 50% of a 2nd healer to a group. It does nothing for the additional tanks. Possible increase to threat generation should be considered. If both extra tanks do this it should be as effective as having another healer in group.2) Increase DPS/damage dealt for extra tanks. Increase Threat for MT. Balance this so it doesn't cross over into forcing DPS classes out of a job, but it should also be a very viable option. If both extra tanks pick this option then it should be a fairly large DPS bonus to make up for having 3 fighters in group.Once all the extra fighters have picked their Phalanx ability the MT then "accepts", it then adds a buff to the MT until the group or raid is broken. If there are more than 3 fighters present, they cannot add to the effect, but they DO get the DPS buff effect. Force it so that the buff is only active when with in range of the MT. It radiates out from him. So the fighters have to form a "Phalanx" together. Slightly further than melee range of each other should work so the extra fighters can flank a mob if needed to avoid directional damage.This ability would allow groups/raids with multiple tanks to add some utility/bonuses to each other and not making it where having more than one tank punishes a group or raid.You can take this type of "stacking" idea and assist the classes that have the stacking issues

Windowlicker

04-09-2009, 09:01 AM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>So is it the way items affect SK or their spells? Cause they are nerfing the spells, if it's items, shouldn't it be items? Or is it buffs from other classes?</blockquote>I personally think it's a combination of the new gear, which is better suited for hybrids and the available buffs coming from fully mythicaled groups and raidforces.Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the harder skills for an SK to raise has historically been INT. With TSO, there has been a gigantic volume of STR/AGI/INT gear dropping, specifically tailored to the Crusader. This in itself isn't a bad thing, and truthfully that gear should have always been available.Add to that, the fact the SK is gaining benefit from 100% of a Dirges buffs, and 100% of a Troubs buffs. Add raidwide CoB and POTM to that, and you have the makings of an issue.Even worse, is when you have the SK placed within a group with an Illusionist. 1000 damage to every spell cast will have an effect. What about a troub running Upbeat Tempo on the SK?Basicly, it dosn't matter what's with the SK it's receiving gigantic benefit from all the buffs. Add to that the AE capabilities, the clicky on the mythical, Divine Aura, Bloodletter and the picture starts to become a bit more clear.

CHIMPNOODLE.

04-09-2009, 12:12 PM

<cite>Uggliey wrote:</cite><blockquote>Naa my idea was something a bit broader in scope. Could be applied to any classes that have stacking issues. Below is a copy of one PM I sent. It's not about fighter balance at all really, but about addressing the fact that having more than one fighter in a group had a negative impact on the group in almost all situations. Though it is more of a feature that would be added with an expansion, I hope they consider something along these lines.<hr />Hello, Here is an idea I had to address group/raids to invite more than one tank. This idea can also be pushed across to other class types to address "stacking" issues. (2 druids, 2 shammies, 2 flanking DPS, ect ect) Fighter Phalanx Ability. Triggers a new window for fighters in the group/raid only. The Main Tank triggers it anytime once the group/raid is formed. The additional tanks, max of 3 (MT +2), then click a response to it. The responses do the following....1) Increase survivability for the MT. Either through direct damage reduction, mitigation, avoidance, or all 3. This should work about as good as adding 50% of a 2nd healer to a group. It does nothing for the additional tanks. Possible increase to threat generation should be considered. If both extra tanks do this it should be as effective as having another healer in group.2) Increase DPS/damage dealt for extra tanks. Increase Threat for MT. Balance this so it doesn't cross over into forcing DPS classes out of a job, but it should also be a very viable option. If both extra tanks pick this option then it should be a fairly large DPS bonus to make up for having 3 fighters in group.Once all the extra fighters have picked their Phalanx ability the MT then "accepts", it then adds a buff to the MT until the group or raid is broken. If there are more than 3 fighters present, they cannot add to the effect, but they DO get the DPS buff effect. Force it so that the buff is only active when with in range of the MT. It radiates out from him. So the fighters have to form a "Phalanx" together. Slightly further than melee range of each other should work so the extra fighters can flank a mob if needed to avoid directional damage.This ability would allow groups/raids with multiple tanks to add some utility/bonuses to each other and not making it where having more than one tank punishes a group or raid.You can take this type of "stacking" idea and assist the classes that have the stacking issues</blockquote>Dunno about the actual effect/amounts...but that's a pretty neat idea imo. I like the concept, for tanks and the potential for other classes too.

Uggli

04-09-2009, 12:55 PM

Yeah, balance it with the numbers/effects and what not. Devil will be in the details. It should never be the prefered group setup, but solid option to make non-standard groups viable for group content.

AziBam

04-09-2009, 05:04 PM

I like that idea Ugg. I even like the name. Why hold it to 3 though? Maybe 3 if it's just in a group but there really should be more for raids. I know this is all a bit off topic for this thread but I hate how current mechanics make it so you generally will have 2 or sometimes 3 fighters on most raids. There should be spots for 6. No problem getting 6 healers, scouts and mages in. Fighters really get the shaft on that. I primarily raid on my Illy and know that it's pretty ideal to have 3 of that class on any raid. 3 or even 4 dirges. 2 troubs. Never hurts to have a couple brigs etc. I'd go so far as to say make the effects from Phalanx (whatever they might be) get more powerful for each different fighter type adding to it up to 6. Heck, not having thought about it too awfully much I think your idea could be applied to more than just fighters. Mages get erm...synergy adding things that casters desire that grow larger or more effective with each of the 6 caster classes present, healers get..well whatever you want to call it, and scouts something similar as well. Combine that with making some of the "utility" class buffs raidwide or non-concentration based but still castable on multiple targets and you'd create an incentive to add more classes into your raid mix while reducing the incentive to load up on just a few. Raids wouldn't be FORCED to take a diverse class makeup but they would at least be given a reason to do so.

Uggli

04-09-2009, 05:42 PM

Maybe a group version and a raid version. I don't see being able to balance it properly for both using the same abilities as the needs tend to be different. It would either be over powering for the group to make it viable for the raid, or completely useless in raid to make it balanced for the group.For diversity you could make it an AA tree style. Every fighter(arch type) can use it at any time, but those that have trained AA's into the abilities can augment the Phalanx. All fighters should share the same tree, to limit the screwed up balance issues it would introduce otherwise. Make it a complex tree with many options, but only able to select a limited few before the tree hits a point cap. Maybe 2 or 3 lines, but you can only max one, or pick a little from each ect ect.

Yushal

04-12-2009, 12:25 AM

Sorry, but I think this argument that since an sk gets both spell and combat support from buffs then the class becomes overpowered, does not make any sense. If this were so, then it would be a problem without the buffs as well, and it would actually overpower the non-hybrid classes just the same.Basically, sk spell/combat abilities taken as a whole are to be thought of as equivalent to a wizard's spells or a guardian's combat overall. So, if you have a ratio of spell : combat, guardian may be 0:100, wizard may be 100:0 and sk may be 50:50. In any case, any buffs will affect the characters the same way. A buff that gives 2x combat will leave the guardian at 0:200 and the sk at 50:100, the wizard at 0:100. Add a spell buff and it evens everyone out to 200:0, 0:200, and 100:100.Obviously, this is a simplification, but it is at least logical.

AntiYou

04-12-2009, 06:36 AM

This thread has degenerated into idiocracy... We got one guy with a case of Sony "VISION" thinking everything should work the way he sees it. Another one proposing a way to undue all the work the devs have done to make sure that all classes can and do participate in raids. More than a few people suffering from class envy. I just want you all to know that it is people like you that whine on message boards that destroy good MMORPG's. The devs should never listen to you.Anyway, thats my 2cp. Have a nice Easter.

Uggli

04-13-2009, 11:26 AM

Thanks for adding your great insight into the thread. We were all lost and didn't know what to do until you posted. How can we ever thank you enough?!! Please post more insightful and helpful ideas!!

Gehemnishthex

04-14-2009, 01:51 PM

<cite>Uggliey wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The thing you forget is that gear had NEVER been designed around helping the hybrids until now,</blockquote>They've also been prone to make content not complement AOE fights. After Kunark (the 'single target expansion) they finally put back in fat linked encounters and a prevelance of multi mob fights...and that was the best thing about being an SK right now. and the whineyest thing about being a guardian. They finally made content well rounded <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Really though I'd gladly take a DPS reduction if I could get me some of that fat Easymode-to-accumulate Guardian survibility. Their Gear just drips with damage reduction and avoidance, not to mention AA and whatnot. My eyes go all buggy when i see a treasured/T1shard armored out guardian, no mythical, with better avoidance/mitigation than I have. Man I'd love to take hits better and do less DPS, where do i sign up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rahatmattata

04-14-2009, 02:38 PM

<cite>Slagnath@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really though I'd gladly take a DPS reduction if I could get me some of that fat Easymode-to-accumulate Guardian survibility. Their Gear just drips with damage reduction and avoidance, not to mention AA and whatnot. My eyes go all buggy when i see a treasured/T1shard armored out guardian, no mythical, with better avoidance/mitigation than I have. Man I'd love to take hits better and do less DPS, where do i sign up <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Roll a guardian and let us know how that goes.Pro-tip: you can have 4 billion hp and 100% avoidance but it doesn't mean squat if the mob isn't on you. At least you'll be the last guy in the group to go down. Wewt?

Gehemnishthex

04-14-2009, 02:45 PM

They spent so many expansions giving us dps and agro boosts rather than survivability, and suddenly it's a problem. All I'm saying is that I for one would love some survivability rather than DPS.

RafaelSmith

04-14-2009, 03:51 PM

<cite>Slagnath@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>They spent so many expansions giving us dps and agro boosts rather than survivability, and suddenly it's a problem. All I'm saying is that I for one would love some survivability rather than DPS.</blockquote>All that so called 'surviveability' means nothing when the mobs are not on you. To be blunt....it seems alot of SKs really are refusing to acknowledge just how beneficial their massive threat generation and threat maintaining is....to say nothing of the fact that that threat comes via mage/scout level DPS which serves two purposes(aggro and kill speed). You would give up that for a few more % of mit or avoid? Ok deal......ill take some of that crazy threat..maybe you can spare some of that threat you generate without even trying or wanting too? =P

CHIMPNOODLE.

04-15-2009, 02:13 PM

Sounds like old news to me really.I haven't noticed much change from tanking KoS, to RoK, to TSO really. SK DPS has always been decent, and great on multi-mobs pretty much...but not T1 level by any means. We look especially great on multimobs when comparing to more single target DPSers. Some of the TSO group zones really cater to AOE types, not all of them though...but more than enough to shake up the status quo for some.I've been been tanking raids and groups as an SK since early 2005. I was my guilds raid MT since day 1, and MT/OT of another raid alliance for the last 4 years. I can't remember ever really having aggro issues, even tanking back in T5 and T6. I never really complained about DPS issues either (never really cared about it since I was always bulking up for surviveability first and foremost). I always asked for more surviveability tools, dammage reducers, avoidance etc etc..I find that we got an extra surviveability tool or 2, over time, every expansion or major update. That's been the only really noticeable thing for me.My DPS has gone up every expansion, but not astronomically so. Hate has gone up proportionately as well, I think so anyway...sometimes I don't feel like I have to work quite as hard as I used to (used to often feel more like a second to second stress around the CoAA and GoAA days...DoF was a hoot for that lol)...but I don't find anything more noticeable than the surviveability aspects. The other 2 haven't really haven't been an issue for me. MT'ing I was holding aggro nicely, OTing I could snap aggro fast.I can survive easier now than in the past, my avoidance has increased about 10% since RoK (and I'm still missing a few AAs and gear pieces that should push me up another 6% minimum)....but most of the biggest increases were from KoS and RoK (2 proc bloodletter from VP set, DA, Mytch clicky, syphon armor, blood pools etc., spell crit AAs).For TSO, we lose the VP set bonus (if we want to benefit from new upgrades to work on other aspects), but we get the syphon 1 hit absord now after a past update...some decent Shield Effectiveness AAs...and Furor (which, granted, is a great single ability).Anyway, I just find it interesting now how hate and DPS are the critical issues, when for quite some time now those have been 2 of the lessor issues for SKs (imo). Surviveability was always the biggie that SKs had to deal with imo (the classic "yes, SKs can tank anything in game..but you'll take more dammage and so its a bit harder when you are learning new mobs" type thingy. Heal-backs/taps were often discounted in favor of reducing upfront dammage as well).I don't really see a problem anymore actually, with the exception of maybe guard and brawler AOE aggro needing a "look-at" (SKs/Pallys/Zerks handle AOE fine...and all handle single target fine)... though people should not go out of their way to unload all their AOEs knowing this as well (not generally an issue in raids given the content design, transfers & reducers). If you're an SK OT (or any tank class), its not terribly difficult to control your own aggro. If grave sacrament is pulling aggro, then don't use it at innopportune times...very few even used the spell while raiding in the past (as its older version) due to ... cast time/low dammage/die with every shot of dammage. I see people working Sneering Assault into their rotations now too, when they are already riding high on aggro lists...no surprise, they pull aggro. SKs ripping aggro with deathmarches in the first 2 secs after a pull are dying too. Use abilities at appropriate times.If a guard OT pulls aggro after hitting reinforcements should the ability be scrapped, or not used in certain situations? A brawler peel/drag 'ing for kicks? The player is the issue there imo.

LygerT

04-15-2009, 02:23 PM

uh oh, now the SK's have a taste for guardian avoidance, watch out!anyways, TSO isn't well balanced from a single target tank point of view. i guess you would have to be in those shoes to see it, even as an AE tank i can easily see where they can be frustruated by the heroic content in this expansion.i see more tanks just hitting abilities lit up that deal damage just because they are there, ignoring that they also will peel aggro. now from the healer aspect i just let them die if i am able to, eventually they will learn or go do something else.

CHIMPNOODLE.

04-15-2009, 03:43 PM

Hehe...surprising that's not the focal point of most debates. Probably for fear of starting another wave of "pulled aggro and got one shotted" threads that were all the rage back in the day <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Tough situation for grouping though, I agree. Can be very tough if your group/raid isn't tuned in to your strenghts and weaknesses.Many people used to actively say (and some SKs did too lol) "We've got an SK tanking...hold off on DPS for a bit...wait 5 seconds before starting" , "oo..SK tanking, better get a second healer" lol, nonsense. Not pleasant, but that's how it was for many.In this case, its along the lines of "We've got a guard tanking, easy on the AOEs". Not pleasant either. I can understand that.End of the world? Not really. You play a class because you enjoy it for whatever reason. I continued to play my SK when the general view was negative, because I loved the class...and continued to play roles that were generally viewed as being more difficult due to my class (for right or wrong).I continue to play my dirge...who is still a nightmare to solo with compared to my other toons. In raids (and even groups), its all about what I can do for others...but I still play him. He's fun to me.I still play my Inquisitor, who is decent all round...but, well, visit the Inquisie forums. Much ansgt there. lol.Guards are still capable of tanking raids, and arguably, still have an edge surviveability wise. So what's the issue? Losing aggro to everyone in raid....or just SKs? If its just SKs, then either the SKs need to be more careful...or yes, RL might need some rearranging (swap buffs, aggro reducers, who knows...situational). I've moved around all kinds of people on raids to get things to work the way I wanted. If I didn't have enough aggro reduction/generation, I'd swap people around to lower DPS on my guys getting themselves killed lol. Anyway, just an example.Guards are still capable of tanking groups too. They still survive well. AOEers in group would have to hold back? Probably. With major aggro reduction or transfers, maybe still, I dunno. Would guards be less desireable for those groups? Probably. Seems like guards would be less desireable for certain groups, with certain group makeups, for certain group zones.Its a perception thing again imo. Lots of people are thinking they can't do it, or it will slow them down a lot going in with a guard. Its similar to some views regarding SKs not that long ago.For TSO, I've run through all the group zones with my SK tanking, and most of them with my Healer too....and I've also gone though many mish mash groups with a guard tanking and my SK not. I had to hold back if I wanted to leave aggro on the guard during multi-mob fights for sure. I also felt like I was holding back a bit on some named if I wanted to leave aggro on the MT of the group....but that's part of my job (in that situation). I'm not in group to try to steal aggro every chance I get. I'm also usually slightly better geared than most PUG tanks, and even a lot of newer raiders/modest raid crew tanks. Given the gear levels of some of the guards I was running with, though group-wise, they were doing pretty well imo...and getting the job done.This is not entirely a new guardian problem though, maybe exacerbated from having more multi-mobs in zones...but unless it was an uber tough zone, crusaders were usually preferred for groups imo.It requires more work to do what you see other classes doing, and it is frustrating to some. Will there be tweaks to try to adjust things?....probably, or maybe the next set of dungeons will be mostly single mobs, or a perfectly even mix. Not sure.I don't think things are totally out of whack though. I swap back and forth with warriors and SKs often in my raids. Sometimes things are better with an SK I find, sometimes better with a guard. Add fights have me favoring SKs, long hang in there fights have me favoring guards generally. If we had other classes I could try other combos, but we only have SKs and a Guard...plus bruisers in our regular ranks.In groups I play with all classes. Most dungeons, whether I'm tanking or not, I prefer to go with with an SK and at least 1 or 2 AOE classes....but I don't care enough to even try to get my "preferred" group. I don't find it matters all that much. I don't see anyone in group or level chat specifically shunning guards either for groups, regardless of what their opinion is of tank pecking order.

RafaelSmith

04-15-2009, 04:20 PM

<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think things are totally out of whack though. I swap back and forth with warriors and SKs often in my raids. Sometimes things are better with an SK I find, sometimes better with a guard. Add fights have me favoring SKs, long hang in there fights have me favoring guards generally. If we had other classes I could try other combos, but we only have SKs and a Guard...plus bruisers in our regular ranks.</blockquote>I don't think things are out of whack as bad as some but there is definately a few things wrong with the current state.My guild only really has 2 raid "capable" tanks.....myself and a SK. SK being much better geared, more playttime, 200 AAs, fully mastered, etc. So any comparison I make I have to factor that in. That said, from my perspective it just seems like the SK is able to do too much too well at the same time. When you can virtually lock aggro, MT any instance all the while being one of the top contributers to DPS for the group you have a distinct advantage. I view things more from the perspective of the group as a whole...getting thru an instance at good pace, with little frustration and wipes is what everyone wants.....of course the MT that allows that is going to be preferred. With the SK at MT there is alot more "wiggle" room as to who fills in the other group slots. With me.....I have to be very specific and careful...i.e I need 1..sometimes 2 forms of hate xfer, I need to limit myslef ot single target DPS classes, etc.None of this is really new.......its just that with all the AE TSO has forced alot of this to the surface....the instances are alot less forgiving than ROK was for having mismatched group construction. And DPS is even more king in TSO than it ever was before......so a low DPS, low aggro single target tank is faced with alot of disadvantages.

Lethe5683

04-15-2009, 11:37 PM

Actually I was raiding SoH the other day with a SK MT that couldn't hold hate off me when I was only doing 5k dps.

Kimber

04-16-2009, 02:09 AM

I play a zerk and have had problems with SK's pulling aggro in pubs cause they like to hit all thier buttons. Its cool though after the second time I tell the healer to let em die and lay there for a bit before res that usually fixes it. Although you run into this with every class tbh its the persone behind the keyboard worried about the parse that is the problem not the abilities. Although I will say this Guards are the single target MT of choice with Pally right behind then Monks. For AOE content it should go Zerk, SK then Bruisers, if we go with the same format. The way things are right now with the SK hate gain abilities its not. I could care less about the parse tbh I care about hate gain as things are right now a lv 80 SK in a mix of MC and T1 shard gear and AD3's will build more hate than my Zerk at 80 with full set T1 shard gear and AD3's. Basicly due to Dot effects a few ( not many ) of the SK AOE have builds hate per tic over x amount of time. Now if this is how is suppsed to be with SK then Zerk then Brusier ok nps but my understanding is it is not supposed to be that way. Oh well anyway I really like the idea for getting more tanks in raids and making it more viable to take more than 2 plate tanks in a raid.This may not be the proper place to toss this out there but it falls in line with the idea above imo. If you were to make a phalanx type ability and all would Monks and Bruisers get it also or would it fall under the plate tanks. As a phalanx is a wall of steel basicly ment to divert damage? If this idea were to be implimented I would think that SoE might want to rething the roll of Monks and Bruisers and possably place them in thier own archtype. I know that this would make for some growing pains and many of the Monks and Bruisers would not be happy but I also would not think it would be fair to have an ablitiy like phalanx available to a leather wearing class that is more about avoiding the hit instead of taking the hits if you see what I mean. I also would not want them to loose out on thier raid spots due to not haveing this abiity. My understanding is that the reason there are 24 spots in a raid is because you should have every class in a raid.

Rahatmattata

04-16-2009, 04:11 AM

For me it's not so much the aoe threat problem itself. It's the whole stamina line and jewel of animosity nerf that went in with GU50. I lost 35% double attack from the stamina line, I lost 7% double attack from my buckler that was rendered useless because of the warrior stamina line changes. I lost double attack proc when they nerfed the jewel. I went from 80+ dlb attk self buffed to 40% after the various nerfs. And it doesn't apply to me, but the guardian mythical epic was essentially nerfed to be quite lame.I have to have a dirge. Don't even invite me to a group if you don't have a dirge. In addition it is a tremendous help to have a coercer. Not just for their hate/xfer, but coercive healing, keeping me with power, dps mod (guardians self buff haste pretty well). I've never really struggled with aoe aggro, there's things guards can do to consistantly hold multiple mobs. It's just essential to have a dirge, and either a coercer, transfer, or group-wide deaggro. Moderate helps too, but you can't moderate all the dps. A solid healer is necissary in high dps groups as well, preferably a cleric, allowing me to ostance or duelwield. If all these things are true, then I do well in groups. Take out an element, and threat control (and my personal dps) starts to get pretty suck.One of the worst groups I could have is like... an illusionist, brigand, warlock, ranger, and sucky druid. No buffs to help my dps (illy haste just pushes me into returns, IA on ranger), high threat generating classes, and weak healer forcing me to stay sword & board in dstance. Toss in mobs like Vek2 that have high avoid and my dps is pathetic. I absolutly hate groups like this. Now, a shadowknight could probably get away with a group like that.I think shadowknights need a threat nerf (not necissarily a dps nerf) and guardians need a dps buff. Right now, they can solo BTC runs in SoF, outparse every other fighter in almost every scenario, hold hate better than any other fighter, and are perfectly capable of raid tanking. And they pwn face in PvP. Some argue paladin has better threat control but I disagree and don't really care to debate the point atm anyway.So why play a guardian? Guards suck soloing "hard" content; the worst soloing class of all fighters. Their threat control is the worst of the plate fighters. Lowest dps potential of all fighters. Mediocre in pvp... not bad in group pvp, but certainly nothing to brag about. Guards maybe have a slight edge in survivability, although that could be argued. Brawlers are hurting as well, but at least they have something going for them. Soloing, pvp, and dpsing are decent as a brawler.Not trying to flame or rant, just giving my viewpoint on playing a guard since GU50 and how he compares to other fighter classes. I know shadowknight were pretty lousy in RoK, and honestly I met very few good ones before then either. Guardians have had it pretty sweet for a good while. I doubt any big changes will happen before the next expansion, but it still sucks to play a significantly gimped class compared to you brother classes. And while I do feel shadowknights need a threat nerf, I don't hope to see them [Removed for Content] and useless. I just feel between solo capability, pvp, and tanking capability shadowknights have too much going for them. To be balanced, I believe they should have to sacrifice in some area, and IMO that area would be threat control. Keep the dps, keep whatever survivability they have, keep the solo ability, keep the pvp ability, but nerf the threat snaps or something ffs.

Uggli

04-16-2009, 11:20 AM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>This may not be the proper place to toss this out there but it falls in line with the idea above imo. If you were to make a phalanx type ability and all would Monks and Bruisers get it also or would it fall under the plate tanks. As a phalanx is a wall of steel basicly ment to divert damage? If this idea were to be implimented I would think that SoE might want to rething the roll of Monks and Bruisers and possably place them in thier own archtype. I know that this would make for some growing pains and many of the Monks and Bruisers would not be happy but I also would not think it would be fair to have an ablitiy like phalanx available to a leather wearing class that is more about avoiding the hit instead of taking the hits if you see what I mean. I also would not want them to loose out on thier raid spots due to not haveing this abiity. My understanding is that the reason there are 24 spots in a raid is because you should have every class in a raid.</blockquote>It's just a word, doesn't have to be called that. And it doesn't mean exactly what you think, and in fact has several meaning. All which fit perfectly for what I was aiming at. All fighters are working towards the same goal. Doesn't matter what their gear is. People have it in their head of the greek phalanx, leathered armor more often than not, with big shields and spears/swords in tight formation to counter certain type units. Below is the meaning of the term and why I chose it.The fighter stacking idea was to allow you to get more than one fighter in a group/raid and have them be viable even if they are not the MT. Has nothing to do with balance between the classes.Phalanx<table ><tbody><tr><td width="35">1.</td> <td>(in ancient Greece) a group of heavily armed infantry formed in ranks and files close and deep, with shields joined and long spears overlapping.</td></tr></tbody></table> <table ><tbody><tr><td width="35">2.</td> <td>any body of troops in close array.</td></tr></tbody></table> <table ><tbody><tr><td width="35">3.</td> <td>a number of individuals, esp. persons united for a common purpose.</td></tr></tbody></table> <table ><tbody><tr><td width="35">4.</td> <td>a compact or closely massed body of persons, animals, or things.</td></tr></tbody></table>

CHIMPNOODLE.

04-16-2009, 02:14 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>One of the worst groups I could have is like... an illusionist, brigand, warlock, ranger, and sucky druid. No buffs to help my dps (illy haste just pushes me into returns, IA on ranger), high threat generating classes, and weak healer forcing me to stay sword & board in dstance. Toss in mobs like Vek2 that have high avoid and my dps is pathetic. I absolutly hate groups like this. Now, a shadowknight could probably get away with a group like that.</blockquote>That would be a pain in the butt group for an SK too actually. SK would still have to work for aggro, especially with a competant Warlock blasting on multi-mobs. Making up the DPS gap without transfers would require some serious staggering of 'big' abilities and timing refreshes (and defensive buffs too for surviving). Even the ranger, brig and Illy could cause issues too if they were well geared and well played.I see non-mythed warlocks pumping out 11-14K DPS often on multi-mobs in HotF for example...meanwhile I'm pulling 7-8K on the same mobs. Without transfers, that's a big gap to make up/keep up with without all threat guns up....so keeping a consistantly swift pace would take a backseat to timing refreshes and pacing. If not, the warlock would be tanking. SKs do not have indefinite automatic aggro locks either.Its not easymode for anyone in that situation, but ya, I see that it would be tougher for guards (especially in certain zones).

Kimber

04-16-2009, 09:41 PM

<cite>Uggliey wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>This may not be the proper place to toss this out there but it falls in line with the idea above imo. If you were to make a phalanx type ability and all would Monks and Bruisers get it also or would it fall under the plate tanks. As a phalanx is a wall of steel basicly ment to divert damage? If this idea were to be implimented I would think that SoE might want to rething the roll of Monks and Bruisers and possably place them in thier own archtype. I know that this would make for some growing pains and many of the Monks and Bruisers would not be happy but I also would not think it would be fair to have an ablitiy like phalanx available to a leather wearing class that is more about avoiding the hit instead of taking the hits if you see what I mean. I also would not want them to loose out on thier raid spots due to not haveing this abiity. My understanding is that the reason there are 24 spots in a raid is because you should have every class in a raid.</blockquote>It's just a word, doesn't have to be called that. And it doesn't mean exactly what you think, and in fact has several meaning. All which fit perfectly for what I was aiming at. All fighters are working towards the same goal. Doesn't matter what their gear is. People have it in their head of the greek phalanx, leathered armor more often than not, with big shields and spears/swords in tight formation to counter certain type units. Below is the meaning of the term and why I chose it.The fighter stacking idea was to allow you to get more than one fighter in a group/raid and have them be viable even if they are not the MT. Has nothing to do with balance between the classes.Phalanx<table ><tbody><tr><td width="35">1.</td><td>(in ancient Greece) a group of heavily armed infantry formed in ranks and files close and deep, with shields joined and long spears overlapping.</td></tr></tbody></table><table ><tbody><tr><td width="35">2.</td><td>any body of troops in close array.</td></tr></tbody></table><table ><tbody><tr><td width="35">3.</td><td>a number of individuals, esp. persons united for a common purpose.</td></tr></tbody></table><table ><tbody><tr><td width="35">4.</td><td>a compact or closely massed body of persons, animals, or things.</td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote>I understand what you were getting at with it which is why I put up there what I thought of the idea and how I would like to see it implimented. I mentioned the stuff about the Monks and Bruisers so that it would be understood that I did not want to see them left out in the cold as it were.

LygerT

04-17-2009, 04:57 PM

<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>One of the worst groups I could have is like... an illusionist, brigand, warlock, ranger, and sucky druid. No buffs to help my dps (illy haste just pushes me into returns, IA on ranger), high threat generating classes, and weak healer forcing me to stay sword & board in dstance. Toss in mobs like Vek2 that have high avoid and my dps is pathetic. I absolutly hate groups like this. Now, a shadowknight could probably get away with a group like that.</blockquote>That would be a pain in the butt group for an SK too actually. SK would still have to work for aggro, especially with a competant Warlock blasting on multi-mobs. Making up the DPS gap without transfers would require some serious staggering of 'big' abilities and timing refreshes (and defensive buffs too for surviving). Even the ranger, brig and Illy could cause issues too if they were well geared and well played.I see non-mythed warlocks pumping out 11-14K DPS often on multi-mobs in HotF for example...meanwhile I'm pulling 7-8K on the same mobs. Without transfers, that's a big gap to make up/keep up with without all threat guns up....so keeping a consistantly swift pace would take a backseat to timing refreshes and pacing. If not, the warlock would be tanking. SKs do not have indefinite automatic aggro locks either.Its not easymode for anyone in that situation, but ya, I see that it would be tougher for guards (especially in certain zones).</blockquote>difference is you're doing 7k on all the mobs in the area while the guard is doing 4k on the single mob he has targetted and is moderating the warlock dumping some of his AE hate, still can't be done by a guard without constantly cycling mobs or killing them off quick enough to get the next before it peels. it's definitely different when we think about how much work it takes to do something until you see just how much work the difference really is for each of us. i know in that group i would have a headache but for a guard it would be a nightmare in a heavy AE zone, which most are.in some sense i think we just dropped the ball in the thought that there should be an AE versus single target tank aspect since guardian really is the only single target plate tank. the rest can AE dps AND have AE hate tools but guards have neither without going a [Removed for Content] AA spec just to be able to do heroic zones with 40% less of a migraine.

Srau

04-18-2009, 05:15 AM

I am all for 1 class = 1 speciallity.In the end if every class does the same job, thanks to revamps and balances, what is the point of having 24 classes ?I think you should all (and by all i really mean all) take a deep breath, calm down and get a ticket for time machine to explore (or remember for some) the Kunark and pré Kunark era in EQ1 : the only viable tank was the warrior with a single target taunt skill capped at 250 (while offensive skills of others were capped at 300) and with no DPS ability (laugh@ triple attack).During those times, tanks had to learn to tank without effective taunt and and DPS had to learn how to let the tank do his job by lowering their DPS or getting everyone killed.You all seem to miss a point : it is not our classes to bend to match gameplay, it is the developper team to bend the gameplay to match our classes.Gimping a class and calling for a nerf because at 1 point this class have an edge is not the solution, it is just a weak way to solve an issue, typically political way : solve the issue, not the cause.Let's take the single/multi mobs encounters exemple : if there's too much of one in Rok and too much of the second TSO rendering AoE Tanks useless at one moment and single target tanks at another moment, why don't you just ask in all fairness for a mix of both in next expac so everyone has a job and the oportunity to play MT and everyone is happy ?

Windowlicker

04-18-2009, 12:30 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>in some sense i think we just dropped the ball in the thought that there should be an AE versus single target tank aspect since guardian really is the only single target plate tank. the rest can AE dps AND have AE hate tools but guards have neither without going a [Removed for Content] AA spec just to be able to do heroic zones with 40% less of a migraine.</blockquote>That 40% AoE autoattack will do nothing for almost anyone either.

Bruener

04-18-2009, 05:47 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>in some sense i think we just dropped the ball in the thought that there should be an AE versus single target tank aspect since guardian really is the only single target plate tank. the rest can AE dps AND have AE hate tools but guards have neither without going a [Removed for Content] AA spec just to be able to do heroic zones with 40% less of a migraine.</blockquote>That 40% AoE autoattack will do nothing for almost anyone either.</blockquote>Yeah, I guess being able to hit up to 8 mobs with your auto attack almost half your swings, which auto attack makes up the majority of your dps....yeah I guess that would do almost nothing for anyone. /sarcasm off.I spec 40% AE attack as a SK instead of maxing STA for DA....because the AE auto attack as an OT on fights like Gynok, Avatars, Anashti, Tyrannus, and General....hitting a lot of mobs 40% of the time with my auto attack is fantastic. I don't understand how Guards can say it is not worth it spec'ing for it to do the AE heroic zones or if they are in an OT position.

Rahatmattata

04-18-2009, 11:38 PM

I use the aoe aa spec when I tank heroic instances on my guardian. All I loose is 15% shield effectiveness and 5% melee crit more or less. Still though, it's a pain to hold aggro without a dirge and coercer/transfer. It's probably a combination of losing da when they changed the warrior sta line and the fact our epic is a 3sec delay with low damage spread.

CHIMPNOODLE.

04-19-2009, 01:13 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>One of the worst groups I could have is like... an illusionist, brigand, warlock, ranger, and sucky druid. No buffs to help my dps (illy haste just pushes me into returns, IA on ranger), high threat generating classes, and weak healer forcing me to stay sword & board in dstance. Toss in mobs like Vek2 that have high avoid and my dps is pathetic. I absolutly hate groups like this. Now, a shadowknight could probably get away with a group like that.</blockquote>That would be a pain in the butt group for an SK too actually. SK would still have to work for aggro, especially with a competant Warlock blasting on multi-mobs. Making up the DPS gap without transfers would require some serious staggering of 'big' abilities and timing refreshes (and defensive buffs too for surviving). Even the ranger, brig and Illy could cause issues too if they were well geared and well played.I see non-mythed warlocks pumping out 11-14K DPS often on multi-mobs in HotF for example...meanwhile I'm pulling 7-8K on the same mobs. Without transfers, that's a big gap to make up/keep up with without all threat guns up....so keeping a consistantly swift pace would take a backseat to timing refreshes and pacing. If not, the warlock would be tanking. SKs do not have indefinite automatic aggro locks either.Its not easymode for anyone in that situation, but ya, I see that it would be tougher for guards (especially in certain zones).</blockquote>difference is you're doing 7k on all the mobs in the area while the guard is doing 4k on the single mob he has targetted and is moderating the warlock dumping some of his AE hate, still can't be done by a guard without constantly cycling mobs or killing them off quick enough to get the next before it peels. it's definitely different when we think about how much work it takes to do something until you see just how much work the difference really is for each of us. i know in that group i would have a headache but for a guard it would be a nightmare in a heavy AE zone, which most are.in some sense i think we just dropped the ball in the thought that there should be an AE versus single target tank aspect since guardian really is the only single target plate tank. the rest can AE dps AND have AE hate tools but guards have neither without going a [Removed for Content] AA spec just to be able to do heroic zones with 40% less of a migraine.</blockquote>Ya, different for sure. I assume he'd be moderating the warlock...and scrapping it out on the singles with the ranger. He'd be snagging IA as well to help...and still cycling mobs like mad. Very tough, but doable...if his group wasn't going out of their way to make it tougher. Should have high enough single DPS in that group though, so mobs should be dying fairly quick in sequence.Anyway, can't argue that zones with lots of AOE encounters will be tougher on more single target oriented tanks (and groups)...even ignoring that most of the named are still singles (or singles with 1 add at a time max), which favor them. I was just saying its not simple for any tank with that setup (especially with no transfers). I find the term "easy" seems to be mixed up a lot with "easier" (and I mean generally...not by you).

Windowlicker

04-20-2009, 08:41 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>in some sense i think we just dropped the ball in the thought that there should be an AE versus single target tank aspect since guardian really is the only single target plate tank. the rest can AE dps AND have AE hate tools but guards have neither without going a [Removed for Content] AA spec just to be able to do heroic zones with 40% less of a migraine.</blockquote>That 40% AoE autoattack will do nothing for almost anyone either.</blockquote>Yeah, I guess being able to hit up to 8 mobs with your auto attack almost half your swings, which auto attack makes up the majority of your dps....yeah I guess that would do almost nothing for anyone. /sarcasm off.I spec 40% AE attack as a SK instead of maxing STA for DA....because the AE auto attack as an OT on fights like Gynok, Avatars, Anashti, Tyrannus, and General....hitting a lot of mobs 40% of the time with my auto attack is fantastic. I don't understand how Guards can say it is not worth it spec'ing for it to do the AE heroic zones or if they are in an OT position.</blockquote>Unlike you, my berserker was an 80 Guardian with this ability. I'm also speaking as a well geared warlock.40% AoE autoattack for a Guard really does almost nothing for holding hate. If you think otherwise, either your horrible at playing your character, or everyone you play with is.

Turb

04-20-2009, 09:18 AM

This discussion doesn't seem to be about SK .. more about single target vs multi target AE.I had a monk main that was quite simply a pain to tank TSO instances with. I can see why guards would also have issues, though they have more tools (e.g. passive hate, AE autoattack).SKs and Zerkers are better at AE aggro, that's what they do.The problem isn't with SKs or Zerkers, it's that other tank classes are less optimal for multimob encounters. SOE have this notion of single target vs multi target tanks, but most of the new content is multi-target.So I now play an SK not a monk. I only chose SK over Zerker as I already had a L70 paladin I could bring out of retirement and levelling a Zerk all the way to 80 would have taken longer.Ofc when it comes down to single target hard mobs and damage mitigation, guards do have some advantages, for instances the AE tanks have the edge because the content is largely AE focused.

RafaelSmith

04-20-2009, 09:38 AM

<cite>Ratius@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>This discussion doesn't seem to be about SK .. more about single target vs multi target AE.I had a monk main that was quite simply a pain to tank TSO instances with. I can see why guards would also have issues, though they have more tools (e.g. passive hate, AE autoattack).SKs and Zerkers are better at AE aggro, that's what they do.The problem isn't with SKs or Zerkers, it's that other tank classes are less optimal for multimob encounters. SOE have this notion of single target vs multi target tanks, but most of the new content is multi-target.So I now play an SK not a monk. I only chose SK over Zerker as I already had a L70 paladin I could bring out of retirement and levelling a Zerk all the way to 80 would have taken longer.Ofc when it comes down to single target hard mobs and damage mitigation, guards do have some advantages, for instances the AE tanks have the edge because the content is largely AE focused.</blockquote>AE abilities (taunts, spells, CAs) can be used and work against a single target......whereas single target abilities DO NOT work against multiplies. That very simple truth is the main reason why this whole AE -vs- ST method of 'balance' is flawed.TSO instances are heavily biased toward AE and max DPS.As for the 40% AutoAttack AE.....it helps but its hardly a solution to the problem. While its true that a good 60% of our DPS comes from auto attack.....its still 60% of low value when compared to that of a AE fighter.

Nero

04-20-2009, 01:42 PM

Sorry for off topic.I am very sick and tired of hearing "SK is overpowered. Nerf SK" in Japanese fan forums.Is SK really overpowered?Maybe yes, or maybe not.I think that most of the reason why people say "SK is overpowered. Nerf SK" is the fact that TSO instances focus on multi target and they are very hard instances.Inflation of the difficulty of TSO instances and TSO instances biased on AE.These two reasons seem to make people say "SK is overpowered. Nerf SK".Even if devs nerf SK, will the inflation of the difficulty of instances and instances biased on AE be changed?I think it is more constructive that devs will revamp and buff other fighters than nerfing SK.SK's history is a painful and terrible history.SK has been always least wanted and needed.I just would like devs not to repeat this SK's history.

Bruener

04-20-2009, 01:49 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>in some sense i think we just dropped the ball in the thought that there should be an AE versus single target tank aspect since guardian really is the only single target plate tank. the rest can AE dps AND have AE hate tools but guards have neither without going a [Removed for Content] AA spec just to be able to do heroic zones with 40% less of a migraine.</blockquote>That 40% AoE autoattack will do nothing for almost anyone either.</blockquote>Yeah, I guess being able to hit up to 8 mobs with your auto attack almost half your swings, which auto attack makes up the majority of your dps....yeah I guess that would do almost nothing for anyone. /sarcasm off.I spec 40% AE attack as a SK instead of maxing STA for DA....because the AE auto attack as an OT on fights like Gynok, Avatars, Anashti, Tyrannus, and General....hitting a lot of mobs 40% of the time with my auto attack is fantastic. I don't understand how Guards can say it is not worth it spec'ing for it to do the AE heroic zones or if they are in an OT position.</blockquote>Unlike you, my berserker was an 80 Guardian with this ability. I'm also speaking as a well geared warlock.40% AoE autoattack for a Guard really does almost nothing for holding hate. If you think otherwise, either your horrible at playing your character, or everyone you play with is.</blockquote>I guess you are right Zayne. For some reason hitting those mobs with your most powerful attack every few seconds just doesn't do anything for agro somehow. And I don't know waht I was thinking arguing with somebody that plays a mage as a main and an alt Zerker who probably never sees a raid. And here I am just a SK that raid tanks in TSO in a raid that is fairly close to clearing all of the instanced content before the new raid zone, and plays in a guild where all 4 plate tanks are present on each and every raid. A SK that also spec's for 40% AE auto attack because I know what it does to AE mobs. Combine that with reinforcement and the couple blue AEs I honestly don't see how a Guard can say they do have trouble with AE agro in a zone where the mobs die within 20 seconds.My bad. What was I thinking. You just seem to have it all together somehow./sarcasm off.

LygerT

04-20-2009, 03:40 PM

only the most aggressive offensive guards who spec for the 40% AE have a little easier time in an AE heavy zone, most of the lesser geared tanks who have to roll defensively and have to use a certain spec for survivability will have a very difficult time with it. i guess you do have to be in that position to understand why some are frustruated with the new content.i will say i have seen alot more defensively oriented tanks lately than ones who focus on aggro generation first, it gives a false impression on how difficult it is for them since i see a tank in the green 100% of the time but having difficulty holding mobs. it's not like everyone can guess how their next group will turn out though with possibly a weak solo healer, the exception is the tank can swap out gear and swap stances, which i very rarely see most do now because it seems they want to do everything without changing anything until a failure happens. IMO i would rather heal for aggressive tanks anyways, most of the time i am bored and trying to DPS even in PUGs to try and move things along quicker.

RafaelSmith

04-20-2009, 03:44 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>in some sense i think we just dropped the ball in the thought that there should be an AE versus single target tank aspect since guardian really is the only single target plate tank. the rest can AE dps AND have AE hate tools but guards have neither without going a [Removed for Content] AA spec just to be able to do heroic zones with 40% less of a migraine.</blockquote>That 40% AoE autoattack will do nothing for almost anyone either.</blockquote>Yeah, I guess being able to hit up to 8 mobs with your auto attack almost half your swings, which auto attack makes up the majority of your dps....yeah I guess that would do almost nothing for anyone. /sarcasm off.I spec 40% AE attack as a SK instead of maxing STA for DA....because the AE auto attack as an OT on fights like Gynok, Avatars, Anashti, Tyrannus, and General....hitting a lot of mobs 40% of the time with my auto attack is fantastic. I don't understand how Guards can say it is not worth it spec'ing for it to do the AE heroic zones or if they are in an OT position.</blockquote>Unlike you, my berserker was an 80 Guardian with this ability. I'm also speaking as a well geared warlock.40% AoE autoattack for a Guard really does almost nothing for holding hate. If you think otherwise, either your horrible at playing your character, or everyone you play with is.</blockquote> Combine that with reinforcement and the couple blue AEs I honestly don't see how a Guard can say they do have trouble with AE agro in a zone where the mobs die within 20 seconds.My bad. What was I thinking. You just seem to have it all together somehow./sarcasm off.</blockquote>At my level of gear and that of my guildmates.....TSO instance mobs take much longer than 20secs to kill....might have something to do with my not being being able to remotely put out the AE DPS a SK can. I get to use Reinforements at best on every 3 pulls. While I do not believe there is anything OP about SK currently....there are some things broken with the rest of us.....especially with regards to TSO. In fact I wish all fighters had the versatility a SK has today. I would be able to fill multiple roles instead of showing up to a raid once a week and Interceding the SK or if I am lucky getting to momentarily OT something.I just wish everyone would quit trying to downplay the massive amount of overall threat (beit against 1 or 20 mobs) a SK can consitantly generate. I see it in action almost everyday. Even when I am tasked to 'peel' and OT single mob form a group while our SK tanks the rest....I struggle...using everything I have to do that. Once ive exhausted them all...I can pretty much do a 10count and predict when said mob will go right back to the SK that hasnt even directly targetted it yet.

Bruener

04-20-2009, 05:24 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>only the most aggressive offensive guards who spec for the 40% AE have a little easier time in an AE heavy zone, most of the lesser geared tanks who have to roll defensively and have to use a certain spec for survivability will have a very difficult time with it. i guess you do have to be in that position to understand why some are frustruated with the new content.i will say i have seen alot more defensively oriented tanks lately than ones who focus on aggro generation first, it gives a false impression on how difficult it is for them since i see a tank in the green 100% of the time but having difficulty holding mobs. it's not like everyone can guess how their next group will turn out though with possibly a weak solo healer, the exception is the tank can swap out gear and swap stances, which i very rarely see most do now because it seems they want to do everything without changing anything until a failure happens. IMO i would rather heal for aggressive tanks anyways, most of the time i am bored and trying to DPS even in PUGs to try and move things along quicker.</blockquote>Lyger this is exactly what I think is going on. Guards going max survivability and forgetting that doing so they limit their agro. My SK wears a mixture of gear for survivability and for DPS increasing to make sure that I control hate. Guards have the option to spec for 40% AE auto attack just like SKs do. Guess what as a SK I give up Divine Aura in the end stamina line to do so, definitely a great survivability tool. This is a choice I make to maximize my DPS/agro. I find Guards reluctant to make the same type of decisions.Every plate tank has some type of AE snap too. Guards get reinforce + AEs, Zerker gets Gibe (good luck pullin mobs off a Zerker that hits Gibe unless you use Sac), Paladins get Holy Ground, and SKs get Nefarious Sacrament. Now while these might not be up for every pull, if like the above poster said they are rolling in groups that take a lot longer than 20 seconds to kill mobs than it should almost be up every other pull. Do I think Guards and Brawlers need a boost to AE hate? Probably a very minor boost..maybe something they can spec for like the AE auto attack. However, legendary geared Guards are tanking every instance in this game without issue...so I really don't think it is as bad as some people are making it out to be.

LygerT

04-20-2009, 06:03 PM

i never said it was as bad as most make it seem, i have tried to talk many guards with [Removed for Content] poor AE hate into taking the agility spec and it's like pulling teeth, even some refuse to step out of defensive stance.but the main point is this whole revolving expansion content thing is getting a bit rediculous, putting people off for years at a time while bumping others to the top is getting a bit dumb. you can have AE and single target tanks in the form of AE dps/single target hate versus AE hate/single target dps. problem is all tanks would be equal but in different ways, making the choice about survivability or dps again. i only use guards as an example because they really are the only tank that has very little AE hate generation, they just get dismissed because they are the opted main raid tank still, though keep in mind a number of people still do play them as mains and do not raid.that would pretty much make any tank viable for MT or OT, but this scares many people because they don't want to compete with another tank as MT or OT. i know i certainly wish there was more need than for more than 2 tanks or even just one on most of the content but there really isn't, when bumped to third tank it was boring and almost disgraceful for a spot so i really know ho brawlers feel now as well.while you should think i would be happy about the AE content and zerks actually being useful i still am not because i still see many imbalances, because i'm not just all about myself or my own classes.

Windowlicker

04-21-2009, 08:54 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>in some sense i think we just dropped the ball in the thought that there should be an AE versus single target tank aspect since guardian really is the only single target plate tank. the rest can AE dps AND have AE hate tools but guards have neither without going a [Removed for Content] AA spec just to be able to do heroic zones with 40% less of a migraine.</blockquote>That 40% AoE autoattack will do nothing for almost anyone either.</blockquote>Yeah, I guess being able to hit up to 8 mobs with your auto attack almost half your swings, which auto attack makes up the majority of your dps....yeah I guess that would do almost nothing for anyone. /sarcasm off.I spec 40% AE attack as a SK instead of maxing STA for DA....because the AE auto attack as an OT on fights like Gynok, Avatars, Anashti, Tyrannus, and General....hitting a lot of mobs 40% of the time with my auto attack is fantastic. I don't understand how Guards can say it is not worth it spec'ing for it to do the AE heroic zones or if they are in an OT position.</blockquote>Unlike you, my berserker was an 80 Guardian with this ability. I'm also speaking as a well geared warlock.40% AoE autoattack for a Guard really does almost nothing for holding hate. If you think otherwise, either your horrible at playing your character, or everyone you play with is.</blockquote>I guess you are right Zayne. For some reason hitting those mobs with your most powerful attack every few seconds just doesn't do anything for agro somehow. And I don't know waht I was thinking arguing with somebody that plays a mage as a main and an alt Zerker who probably never sees a raid. And here I am just a SK that raid tanks in TSO in a raid that is fairly close to clearing all of the instanced content before the new raid zone, and plays in a guild where all 4 plate tanks are present on each and every raid. A SK that also spec's for 40% AE auto attack because I know what it does to AE mobs. Combine that with reinforcement and the couple blue AEs I honestly don't see how a Guard can say they do have trouble with AE agro in a zone where the mobs die within 20 seconds.My bad. What was I thinking. You just seem to have it all together somehow./sarcasm off.</blockquote>I am right, send me a /tell sometime and I'll give you some lessons.While your at it, why don't you examine my Berserker who has never raided. You can explain to me where all the raid gear came from.You think your special because your raid force uses tanks? Guess what, so does ours. I've been raiding in this game since launch, how about you? And my Berserker is my main, the Warlock is my alt. I changed *for* our raidforce a month ago. The tank? has been around since 2006.You seem to have this nasty habit of opening your mouth without actually looking into what your spouting off about. You should really look closer at the Guardians AE toolset before commenting. 40% AoE attack and two weaksauce AE's are not enough to hold AE hate off any decent AE class. Especially a Warlock.Then again, you think SK's are well balanced. That speaks volumes.

Deserim

04-21-2009, 12:04 PM

I have a 80 Guardian AND 80 Shadowknight, played both in groups from lvl 1, NO Soloing of any kind, so I have some experience with both classes, to say the least. To those that know of me on MM, they might say I have more experience being a tank then most because of how I play. With that said, Why is this so difficult to discuss without massive flames? It's actually a fairly easy to compare the 2 classes, and figure out exactly where the discrepancy is and how to fix it.Both classes can tank, but in terms of pure survivability the Guardian is ahead, simply due to the fact that it's fairly easy to wear PURE tank gear, whereas the SK I need to constantly shuffle gear around to maintain high spell crit, melee crit, casting speed, reuse, defense, parry, and mitigation and so on. I actually prefer the Guardian tanking single targets due to all the skills they have to survive massive hits.Agro is where the ball is dropped, to say the least. The SK is a agro magnet, easily holding agro on just about any number of targets, at the same time maximizing dps due to the amount of AE attacks they have. The Guardian has almost no chance on holding that much agro on that many targets, Except for a few items that "AE-Taunt". However, there's a few Really nice items that can HELP a Guard or any plate tank hold AE agro better, and they are easily attained. Of course those items are only helpful when the tank is getting pounded, but hey, agro management is a group responsibility, not just the tanks.Damage is also where the SK rules, but this is in a LARGE part due to the gear that the SK is wearing. As most gear doesn't have DPS and tanking benefits, there's a balance that each player needs to work out for themselves between DPS and Survivability. Go full tanking and lose a lot of dps, go full dps and lose a lot of defense.With all these simple topics in mind, YES the Guardian does need a tweak or three, mostly to their ability to hold SINGLE Target Agro primarily, and perhaps a smaller tweak to their AE Agro, but nothing along the lines of what people have asked for. Guardians are known for being the tanks that stand up to those "one-hit-kill" mobs, and somehow survive to tell the tale, and that's their role, they should not become the "be all end all" agro tank for all occasions, nor should the SK. So with that in mind, enhance the Guards agro, perhaps add a multiplier to their SINGLE taunts so that they can peel and hold from the SK, and perhaps enhance their dps, OR boost their tanking skills to mitigate their lack of dps.I'm not even sure why I'm posting this, there's far too many rabid posters that feel that because their class is in need of tweaks that another class should be broken back down to their level, why not fix the broken class to be in line with the class that's currently where they should be? Remember I play both classes? There SHOULD be a difference in class abilities, or else we should just have 6 classes in this game, no... make that 4, can't have too many options for people to complain about can we?

RafaelSmith

04-21-2009, 01:25 PM

<cite>Deserim wrote:</cite><blockquote> Go full tanking and lose a lot of dps, go full dps and lose a lot of defense.</blockquote>Or be a SK and not have to worry about either. This argument that SKs have less surviveability is getting old and does not match anything ive witnessed in game. The best form of surviveabiliy is lock the aggro kill the mob ASAP. What little paperdoll % here or there that a SK "sacrifices" to be able to do all that DPS and generate all that aggro is for the healers to deal with. The healers are probably bored anyways.Ive lost count of the number of times ive seen our SK survive....appear to be dead....oh wait..not really....situations that would have most definately killed me no matter how many 'rabbits' i might have in my hat.And having all the surviveability in the world is worthless if the mob has already killed your Warlock, your healer and everyone else.

LygerT

04-21-2009, 03:19 PM

at the moment sony is not handing out upgrades like candy, they really never have unless during beta or some sort of revamp. since the tank revamp has been postponed for more review then i seriously doubt there will be any tweaks to classes since several would need bumps at the same time.and every tank class has trouble peeling mobs off of SKs, not just guardians. when you see a guard having trouble peeling a mob off an SK then you should know something is a little off.i don't really see anyone being rabid, just realistic. most players don't feel the need to reroll to the new flavor of a class each expansion.in all honesty from my new healer perspective, low DPS is more of a failure than adding a big chunk to your group. i can keep even a paper tank up for 20 seconds but trying to keep a group rolling through a 4 minute+ fight as i approach running out of power = fail in more ways than one.i just see too much downplaying on issues being minor, as if being in a heavy caster group would hinder your ability to tank like it would a warriors though a heavy melee group is no trouble either. IMO you have since gained a fair amount of diversity and trivial hate generation, those 2 things in themselves disregarding anything else make your class desirable. and yes, we always had to work for a job, when one is handed to you because of your class then that is usually when people start flinging out words like "overpowered".

Norrsken

04-21-2009, 05:56 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>at the moment sony is not handing out upgrades like candy, they really never have unless during beta or some sort of revamp. since the tank revamp has been postponed for more review then i seriously doubt there will be any tweaks to classes since several would need bumps at the same time.and every tank class has trouble peeling mobs off of SKs, not just guardians. when you see a guard having trouble peeling a mob off an SK then you should know something is a little off.i don't really see anyone being rabid, just realistic. most players don't feel the need to reroll to the new flavor of a class each expansion.in all honesty from my new healer perspective, low DPS is more of a failure than adding a big chunk to your group. i can keep even a paper tank up for 20 seconds but trying to keep a group rolling through a 4 minute+ fight as i approach running out of power = fail in more ways than one.i just see too much downplaying on issues being minor, as if being in a heavy caster group would hinder your ability to tank like it would a warriors though a heavy melee group is no trouble either. IMO you have since gained a fair amount of diversity and trivial hate generation, those 2 things in themselves disregarding anything else make your class desirable. and yes, we always had to work for a job, when one is handed to you because of your class then that is usually when people start flinging out words like "overpowered".</blockquote>Well, first off, I play my sk for pvp. Even before they were considered OP, so dont go dragging me having an sk into it, but SKs used to have rather severe hate generation issues, and survivability issues and so on and so forth. And generally, guardians and zerkers responded to the SKs much like the SKs now are responding to them.As they say down south: "De kommer i kaugan" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Still, I have met plenty of SKs that I can rip aggro from on my inqy and my assassin when I feel like ripping aggro. Which, oddly enough, I do like to do to lazy tanks once in a while so they get back on the job.And yeah, I played more than sks as tanks. Not that I've done it since TSO, but honestly... I've even played my inqy as a tank and been told that on that silly healer I out tank a lot of real tanks. that leads me to believe that for some odd reason, a lot of real tanks just cant play worth a hoot. Which is really, the root cause of these inflammatory flamefests back and forth between the tanks. Heck, I hope that the bruiser is the king of the hill in tanking the next expansion. Its about bloody time they get to sit at the tanking throne for a while./rant off. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cruelangel

04-21-2009, 05:56 PM

The nerf is coming, and it's needed to a certain extent. I'll be happy when it does anyway, cause less people will play em, and cry about them after dying in PvP.

Norrsken

04-21-2009, 05:58 PM

<cite>Taktikal@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The nerf is coming, and it's needed to a certain extent. I'll be happy when it does anyway, cause less people will play em, and cry about them after dying in PvP.</blockquote>yeah, and the less I'll get to hear "There's a bloody sk under every rock" as soon as I join a group. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I kinda liked it when there were few sks around.

Nero

04-21-2009, 06:07 PM

Nerf isn't needed.Revamp/tweak of other fighters and buffing up other fighters are needed.

Bruener

04-21-2009, 11:28 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>in some sense i think we just dropped the ball in the thought that there should be an AE versus single target tank aspect since guardian really is the only single target plate tank. the rest can AE dps AND have AE hate tools but guards have neither without going a [Removed for Content] AA spec just to be able to do heroic zones with 40% less of a migraine.</blockquote>That 40% AoE autoattack will do nothing for almost anyone either.</blockquote>Yeah, I guess being able to hit up to 8 mobs with your auto attack almost half your swings, which auto attack makes up the majority of your dps....yeah I guess that would do almost nothing for anyone. /sarcasm off.I spec 40% AE attack as a SK instead of maxing STA for DA....because the AE auto attack as an OT on fights like Gynok, Avatars, Anashti, Tyrannus, and General....hitting a lot of mobs 40% of the time with my auto attack is fantastic. I don't understand how Guards can say it is not worth it spec'ing for it to do the AE heroic zones or if they are in an OT position.</blockquote>Unlike you, my berserker was an 80 Guardian with this ability. I'm also speaking as a well geared warlock.40% AoE autoattack for a Guard really does almost nothing for holding hate. If you think otherwise, either your horrible at playing your character, or everyone you play with is.</blockquote>I guess you are right Zayne. For some reason hitting those mobs with your most powerful attack every few seconds just doesn't do anything for agro somehow. And I don't know waht I was thinking arguing with somebody that plays a mage as a main and an alt Zerker who probably never sees a raid. And here I am just a SK that raid tanks in TSO in a raid that is fairly close to clearing all of the instanced content before the new raid zone, and plays in a guild where all 4 plate tanks are present on each and every raid. A SK that also spec's for 40% AE auto attack because I know what it does to AE mobs. Combine that with reinforcement and the couple blue AEs I honestly don't see how a Guard can say they do have trouble with AE agro in a zone where the mobs die within 20 seconds.My bad. What was I thinking. You just seem to have it all together somehow./sarcasm off.</blockquote>I am right, send me a /tell sometime and I'll give you some lessons.While your at it, why don't you examine my Berserker who has never raided. You can explain to me where all the raid gear came from.You think your special because your raid force uses tanks? Guess what, so does ours. I've been raiding in this game since launch, how about you? And my Berserker is my main, the Warlock is my alt. I changed *for* our raidforce a month ago. The tank? has been around since 2006.You seem to have this nasty habit of opening your mouth without actually looking into what your spouting off about. You should really look closer at the Guardians AE toolset before commenting. 40% AoE attack and two weaksauce AE's are not enough to hold AE hate off any decent AE class. Especially a Warlock.Then again, you think SK's are well balanced. That speaks volumes.</blockquote><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=547049205">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=547049205</a>Oh your right, your profile for your Zerk is wearing raid gear from previous tiers that can be 1 grouped and a couple pieces from the entry level TSO raid mobs that most likely were handed out as alt drops. You don't raid your Zerker so stop pretending like you do.I am sorry that you chose to change to a Warlock as your main. Good tanks don't have to change, good Zerkers are raiding every day just like all the other tanks. This pitty party for Zerks is really complete BS and I don't buy it for a second. Zerks still arguably have the greatest Survaviblity of the tanks...some will tell you better than Guards since Adrenaline rocks no matter how many mobs are hitting you.It is sad that for some reason you can't make your cut as a tank and instead you come here and attack the tanks that are putting you out of business. Those raid spots that SKs are in now have been earned just like any other tank in a raid. You act like hate is easy mode, its not, you act like SKs are some kind of super character that is greater than everybody else, they are not. Plate tanks are balanced. Brawlers are lacking. As soon as you realize that you might be able to make amends with yourself and just realize that not everybody is made to tank.

Windowlicker

04-22-2009, 08:52 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=547049205">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=547049205</a>Oh your right, your profile for your Zerk is wearing raid gear from previous tiers that can be 1 grouped and a couple pieces from the entry level TSO raid mobs that most likely were handed out as alt drops. You don't raid your Zerker so stop pretending like you do.I am sorry that you chose to change to a Warlock as your main. Good tanks don't have to change, good Zerkers are raiding every day just like all the other tanks. This pitty party for Zerks is really complete BS and I don't buy it for a second. Zerks still arguably have the greatest Survaviblity of the tanks...some will tell you better than Guards since Adrenaline rocks no matter how many mobs are hitting you.It is sad that for some reason you can't make your cut as a tank and instead you come here and attack the tanks that are putting you out of business. Those raid spots that SKs are in now have been earned just like any other tank in a raid. You act like hate is easy mode, its not, you act like SKs are some kind of super character that is greater than everybody else, they are not. Plate tanks are balanced. Brawlers are lacking. As soon as you realize that you might be able to make amends with yourself and just realize that not everybody is made to tank.</blockquote>You seem to lack the ability to understand English, and actually look at T4 raidgear and identify it as T4 raidgear. You do realize that T4 raidgear only drops in TSO raidzones right? I clearly said that my Warlock was shelved for the Berserker a month ago. Do you understand what that means? Apparently not.Also, I'd be happy to compare my raid attendance in my guild to yours anyday. I've held an over 90% attendance rate for over two years raiding 4 or more times a week. Not many (And likely especially you) can claim that.Let's count the things you've fabricated or outright lied about in this post:1. I don't raid on my berserker2. I've chosen my Warlock as my main (Even though I said I just dropped it as my main a month ago)3. I somehow don't think the Berserker is working properly (What?)4. I don't feel I can cut it as a tank (What?)5. Tanks are putting me out of business (I'm OT and backup MT for our raidforce actually)6. SK hate is not easymode (I realize this is perception, if you don't understand your toon it probably isn't)I don't hide my character information, because I have nothing *to* hide. You take another look at that gear, and understand the toon has been a main for a month.After that, I suggest you pull your helmet out of your netherregions and stop inventing magical scenerios that don't exist in a poor attempt at making yourself look right.Edit: Also, it takes *real* skill to gear up on Antonia Bayle. Oh wait, no it dosn't. It's one of the highest population servers in the game.Try raiding on a low population server some time.

Bruener

04-22-2009, 02:50 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=547049205">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=547049205</a>Oh your right, your profile for your Zerk is wearing raid gear from previous tiers that can be 1 grouped and a couple pieces from the entry level TSO raid mobs that most likely were handed out as alt drops. You don't raid your Zerker so stop pretending like you do.I am sorry that you chose to change to a Warlock as your main. Good tanks don't have to change, good Zerkers are raiding every day just like all the other tanks. This pitty party for Zerks is really complete BS and I don't buy it for a second. Zerks still arguably have the greatest Survaviblity of the tanks...some will tell you better than Guards since Adrenaline rocks no matter how many mobs are hitting you.It is sad that for some reason you can't make your cut as a tank and instead you come here and attack the tanks that are putting you out of business. Those raid spots that SKs are in now have been earned just like any other tank in a raid. You act like hate is easy mode, its not, you act like SKs are some kind of super character that is greater than everybody else, they are not. Plate tanks are balanced. Brawlers are lacking. As soon as you realize that you might be able to make amends with yourself and just realize that not everybody is made to tank.</blockquote>You seem to lack the ability to understand English, and actually look at T4 raidgear and identify it as T4 raidgear. You do realize that T4 raidgear only drops in TSO raidzones right? I clearly said that my Warlock was shelved for the Berserker a month ago. Do you understand what that means? Apparently not.Also, I'd be happy to compare my raid attendance in my guild to yours anyday. I've held an over 90% attendance rate for over two years raiding 4 or more times a week. Not many (And likely especially you) can claim that.Let's count the things you've fabricated or outright lied about in this post:1. I don't raid on my berserker - Sorry, for as long as you have been spewing crap out of your mouth you have talked about your tank being your alt. Maybe now you can play one in a real raid environment and learn how the mechanics are really working.2. I've chosen my Warlock as my main (Even though I said I just dropped it as my main a month ago) - See above.3. I somehow don't think the Berserker is working properly (What?) - So what exactly is your beef than? If Zerks are working properly than why do you try and jump in every single thread and call for SK nerfs. Guess what SKs are working properly. So what is it, are Zerks working properly too or not?4. I don't feel I can cut it as a tank (What?) - Again before your "supposed" main change all you could do was whine about how much trouble you had with your alt tank, and that for some reason SKs deserved a nerf for it. Unlike you I have raided my Tank since T5. I raid with great people that know what they are doing, and SKs are not OP'd like you would to make everybody believe.5. Tanks are putting me out of business (I'm OT and backup MT for our raidforce actually) - So somehow with your crappy gear you are OT'ing for your raidforce on a toon that you just switched to your main a month ago. Even if this were true...I feel bad for your raid force. Must have been quite the step back for them...did they lose their real OT?6. SK hate is not easymode (I realize this is perception, if you don't understand your toon it probably isn't) - SK is far from easy-mode. Unlike you I OT and MT my SK on raids every raid night. I tank mobs and have to hold hate off of DPS'ers that know what they are doing. Yes, SKs can sustain hate better than the other plate tanks, however other plate tanks have great tools to help them with hate as well. Paladin Amends...that is easy mode hate, not to mention Holy Ground which seems to be up quite a bit when needed. Gibe for Zerkers is an insane capture and hold agro tool. Guards still are rocking reinforce, and not to mention the ability to recapture mobs which is great hate management. Any good plate tank can control agro.I don't hide my character information, because I have nothing *to* hide. You take another look at that gear, and understand the toon has been a main for a month.After that, I suggest you pull your helmet out of your netherregions and stop inventing magical scenerios that don't exist in a poor attempt at making yourself look right.Edit: Also, it takes *real* skill to gear up on Antonia Bayle. Oh wait, no it dosn't. It's one of the highest population servers in the game.Try raiding on a low population server some time. </blockquote>Its sad to see that you had to resort coming into the forums of a class you have no idea how to play and how they operate. You must have gotten sick of all the crap that you have been taking on the In Testing Forums and decided to come in here and take a beating. Seriously, do you ever think before you open your mouth. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to SKs compared to other tanks. I suggest you start focusing on your own class and learning how to actually tank successfully on him since you are now the OT to a raid force...otherwise you will be put out of a job quickly. There are plenty of great plant tanks of every class that know how to play.I have raided longer, have raided more, and have actually done it on a toon that has been my main since launch. A TANK. I raid with all the fighters and I know how they operate in relation to me. You obviously do not know any of this. Furthermore, I have only been on AB for 4 months. Before that I raided on Befallen which is where I made my toon. So whats it going to be next...are you going to try and say that I have no idea how to play my class again, or that I don't know how the other tanks work, or that for some reason since I am on a server with a high population that that means I must get all my TSO raid gear handed to me?

LygerT

04-22-2009, 06:11 PM

perhaps you are right, but i still find it funny that many people rolling alts and people who have never played a tank class i keep hearing this come up: "wow, SK's are overpowered".i do chuckle a little about it now but i will tell you that zerks have alot of negatives tied to what they have to be able to perform, perhaps you don't see it but i lived with it everyday and it got tiresome to now see SK doing equal DPS with a tower shield out, being able to manage in just about any type of group atmosphere and have trivial hate generation now.of course it is easy to ignore to try and retain what you have but it is sad that you will not agree that any of it is even remotely true.i will say it was fairly uncommon for the SK to beat me DPS wise but i was always known as a squishy tank on trash or trivial mobs, when we got to a slightly or more difficult named is the only time i took my role seriously and ignored parse figures.

Windowlicker

04-23-2009, 08:21 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>Its sad to see that you had to resort coming into the forums of a class you have no idea how to play and how they operate. You must have gotten sick of all the crap that you have been taking on the In Testing Forums and decided to come in here and take a beating. Seriously, do you ever think before you open your mouth. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to SKs compared to other tanks. I suggest you start focusing on your own class and learning how to actually tank successfully on him since you are now the OT to a raid force...otherwise you will be put out of a job quickly. There are plenty of great plant tanks of every class that know how to play.I have raided longer, have raided more, and have actually done it on a toon that has been my main since launch. A TANK. I raid with all the fighters and I know how they operate in relation to me. You obviously do not know any of this. Furthermore, I have only been on AB for 4 months. Before that I raided on Befallen which is where I made my toon. So whats it going to be next...are you going to try and say that I have no idea how to play my class again, or that I don't know how the other tanks work, or that for some reason since I am on a server with a high population that that means I must get all my TSO raid gear handed to me?</blockquote>I don't know why you feel a class balance discussion is a popularity contest. But it's clear you not only don't have a clue what your talking about, but feel the need to fly off on wild tangents when you know you aren't right.You know why your a scrub that can't play? Because you keep going off about how the SK is fine, and dosn't need any adjustments.Any idiot that's been raiding for 5 minutes can see that isn't true. You can kick and scream and say I have problems playing my toon all you want, but the fact remains any idiot with a parser that watches the hate list during a raid can see what's really going on.I mean I just don't know what to say to you. You've never grouped with me, you know nobody that know's me .. yet you draw all these wild stupid conclusion. I on the other hand, have raided with countless SK's, group with countless SK's .. and have formed and run raids with countless SK's since launch.One thing's for sure, you sure are good at talking out your rear.

Uggli

04-23-2009, 11:17 AM

Something about a pot and a kettle comes to mind reading the last post.

Rageincarnate

04-23-2009, 02:02 PM

wow, hi lyger.. screwing up another class for me, thanks buddy <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />i just wanna know one thing.. i want to keep aoe agro while tanking instances.. my guard got nerfed and i can't hold agro worth a [Removed for Content].. all that defense is great but it does no good while the mobs are smacking the dps ...so i retired him.. fine i don't care.My new sk is level 61 and agro is great im psyched.. soon to be disapointed im sure after reading the gripefest.. i gotta be honest and come out and say it.. i really wish sometimes sony wouldn't listen to the players and just make the game how they see fit. reference the templar sacrafice nerf....should i just roll a zerker, cause one day lyger will eventually get them overpowered? edit spelling

RafaelSmith

04-23-2009, 03:28 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>wow, hi lyger.. screwing up another class for me, thanks buddy <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />i just wanna know one thing.. i want to keep aoe agro while tanking instances.. my guard got nerfed and i can't hold agro worth a [Removed for Content].. all that defense is great but it does no good while the mobs are smacking the dps ...so i retired him.. fine i don't care.My new sk is level 61 and agro is great im psyched.. soon to be disapointed im sure after reading the gripefest.. i gotta be honest and come out and say it.. i really wish sometimes sony wouldn't listen to the players and just make the game how they see fit. reference the templar sacrafice nerf....should i just roll a zerker, cause one day lyger will eventually get them overpowered?edit spelling</blockquote>It may not be obvious...but......its players that jump around based on which class is FOTM that encourage SOE to continue "balancing" like they do.

Uggli

04-23-2009, 03:40 PM

Yeah because that theory holds up so well......

LygerT

04-23-2009, 04:03 PM

every class becomes overpowered at one point in time, that is how this rollercoaster of an MMORPG works. would i rather have things a little more balanced for all classes? well yes, that is what i have worked for all along. did i ask for all the TSO zones to be heavy AE encounters? no, i never suggested that once ever and that is why guardians are hurting so much now so cry me a river and blame me for that all you want, i'm used to it. if you look around you might even see some of my sympathy towards guards in this expansion.if i really was so into seeing classes become overpowered i would have never told the devs about the zerk heals that replaced our regen proccing too much allowing raid geared zerks to pull all of moors and come out without a scratch on them. sure they're trivial mobs but no class should be able to take on a hundred of even trivial mobs and go AFK to come back to a pile of corpses.many people act like they know me but the truth is most don't know me at all. balance is a 2 way street and it isn't always easy to achieve on the multi level planes that we have which is casual>semi hardcore>hardcore. so some may not visibly see problems where others might and in the end it is selfishness that i see. if it were up to me the zones would have been divided into AE and single target zones, not all zones with AE mobs and a solo one dropped here and there within them. an alternate would be to have a choice upon entering of the mobs coming up as multis or single target with equal difficulty, that would keep people from moaning AE classes having a zone like palace instead of it being single target or vice versa.

RafaelSmith

04-23-2009, 04:09 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>........ and in the end it is selfishness that i see.</blockquote>Sadly its pretty much all see anymore these days.I get really tired of the "Its ok for us to be OP today because you were OP yesterday" type of argument that people fall back on.Purely selfish mentality to have.

LygerT

04-23-2009, 04:16 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>........ and in the end it is selfishness that i see.</blockquote>Sadly its pretty much all see anymore these days.I get really tired of the "Its ok for us to be OP today because you were OP yesterday" type of argument that people fall back on.Purely selfish mentality to have.</blockquote>it is, it's just too bad that people forget who their friends were just yesterday. i'm sure i would probably react the same way so i suppose i can't fault anyone for it. it's not always easy being the evil one to come out and point out the obvious though and i accept what it brings me.there will never be realistic balance because of it, we can't work together because no one wants to.it's easy to say there is balance at this point in time but that balance only is reliant on how you twist it to make it appear balanced from your own perspective. ask a non raiding guardian how well things are balanced now and try to pitch it to them that they are equals.i will leave you all with those thoughts even though i already know how this forum will think nothing of them and continue on as it has for the whole of this thread and why i will not continue to waste time on it. you can now applaud but remember, all it does is continue to run this rollercoaster ride where next expansion you will no longer be favorited.

Bruener

04-23-2009, 08:57 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>........ and in the end it is selfishness that i see.</blockquote>Sadly its pretty much all see anymore these days.I get really tired of the "Its ok for us to be OP today because you were OP yesterday" type of argument that people fall back on.Purely selfish mentality to have.</blockquote>it is, it's just too bad that people forget who their friends were just yesterday. i'm sure i would probably react the same way so i suppose i can't fault anyone for it. it's not always easy being the evil one to come out and point out the obvious though and i accept what it brings me.there will never be realistic balance because of it, we can't work together because no one wants to.it's easy to say there is balance at this point in time but that balance only is reliant on how you twist it to make it appear balanced from your own perspective. ask a non raiding guardian how well things are balanced now and try to pitch it to them that they are equals.i will leave you all with those thoughts even though i already know how this forum will think nothing of them and continue on as it has for the whole of this thread and why i will not continue to waste time on it. you can now applaud but remember, all it does is continue to run this rollercoaster ride where next expansion you will no longer be favorited.</blockquote>No, what people from this forum get sick of seeing is other classes coming in and saying that SKs deserve to be nerfed when they really don't have a clue. Especially, people who play classes that are working just as well as SKs...Zerks. SKs are working well...finally and now for some reason we see a few Zerks posting that SKs need nerfs. I understand the Guards problems, although it is not nearly as bad as they make it out to be. I have no problem seeing Guards getting a little more AE agro...but honestly why should they have the best Single target agro tools and the best AE agro tools like they are pushing for? I understand the frustration of Brawlers as well. It is definitely no fun being the class that has the hardest time finding a raid type spot, believe me those of us that have had our SKs for a while know that feeling. However, just because they see their own classes missing something does not mean they should be calling for SK nerfs. Instead SKs are working like the tanks should be working. When they are not in a tanking mode they can play a DPS mode and do descent T2 DPS...although a good swash will still out parse a good SK in offensive. Hate on SKs is great, nobody will deny that. But SOE wants hate to be more the responsibility of tanks instead of all the other classes buffing them anyway...and even though a SK has good agro you still cannot tank for a raid without having hate buffers and transfers on you. SK survivability is good. Not as good as Guards, not even as good as Zerks until they have raided for awhile and have the 6 set bonus for the extra trigger of Bloodletter.So here we have a class that is working well and suddenly for some reason others call for a nerf to them. They see an inflated Palace trash parse of a SK doing 17k DPS with a completely stacked group with every buff imaginable on him and its nerf central. Nevermind a Dirge running in a typical group parsing 14k+ on that same trash. Its sad that other people that are not even playing the class are trying to break them once again. Balance is a fine line and even a few minor adjustments onto SKs in an area will once again put them behind the curve. You know, MT'ing some of these tough mobs in TSO sometimes, going full defensive on mobs that even with 97% crit mit gear and 6 set bonus on my armor because they can eat through me fast otherwise, I find that the DPS I do isn't even that much more than the Guards. Oh, but on trivial mobs that SKs can throw on all their offensive gear and tank in offensive stance no problem they have good DPS...wow real great that we can do that on mobs that don't matter progression wise anymore. I see Guards DW on those same mobs and tank them.So, SKs have what tanks have been pushing for for a long time. They can step in and MT, although Guards still have the edge survivability wise especially until a SK has his 6 set, they can OT with good agro being that the OT group isn't always the ideal group for hate/survivability, and when not tanking they can provide descent DPS. This is what all Plate tanks should be striving to have, and what 3 of the 4 have. Obviously there is still the issue of Guards only having that great 1 spot on a raid...MT, not sure if the edge in survivability offsets the loss of options, but there it is. Paladins can step into the MT role, especially for fights like Penta where they can amends a target and hold hate without hitting the mob much, they are great OTs because they have a lot of great tools like Amends and Holy Ground to lock agro, and Paladin DPS is just like SK DPS on raids when they are playing in a 3rd tank DPS type role. Zerks also can step in and MT, they are great OTs with tools like Gibe to help them lock agro quickly and 100% AE auto attack for burst DPS on those mobs and of course Adrenaline making them hold up better than any other tank against tons of adds.Nerfs are uncalled for. Minor tweaks to the others might be in line, but not much at all because it would be extremely easy to OP those others. Brawlers, well they need their niche back.

Windowlicker

04-24-2009, 08:43 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>it is, it's just too bad that people forget who their friends were just yesterday. i'm sure i would probably react the same way so i suppose i can't fault anyone for it. it's not always easy being the evil one to come out and point out the obvious though and i accept what it brings me.</blockquote>I'm on the same page with that. You can parse my old posts and actually find many instances of me saying the SK needed some attention/love over the past few years. I helped push for the changes knowing the class needed help.At the same time, I enjoy well functioning mechanics. If my class was overpowered, I'd be pushing for my own adjustments.That being said, the SK really needed the attention it got. But as with most love patches, the changes need revisiting for a little tweaking. Some people apparently don't understand "tweaking", and don't understand the intention of changes.The changes don't come to destroy the class, the changes should simply level the playing field to make all class choices equally attractive. I seriously don't want to see 95% of tanks turn back into Guardians, and I sure don't want to see them all become Shadowknights either.On that note, I have no desire to see everyone want to play Berserker either. It should be a tossup between the classes, with everyone feeling somewhat equally useful.

RafaelSmith

04-24-2009, 09:25 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, SKs have what tanks have been pushing for for a long time. They can step in and MT, although Guards still have the edge survivability wise especially until a SK has his 6 set, they can OT with good agro being that the OT group isn't always the ideal group for hate/survivability, and when not tanking they can provide descent DPS. This is what all Plate tanks should be striving to have, and what 3 of the 4 have. Obviously there is still the issue of Guards only having that great 1 spot on a raid...MT, not sure if the edge in survivability offsets the loss of options, but there it is.</blockquote>That "edge" has gotten smaller and smaller so no it does not offset the loss of options. The sad truth is that if a Guard is present in a group or raid.....he better be MT or OT otherwise its a total waste of a slot.Until they can come up with a way for fighters to be desired for something besides tanking we will never be balanced and everyone....not just Guards will expect Guards to be 'the tank'.

Bruener

04-24-2009, 12:26 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, SKs have what tanks have been pushing for for a long time. They can step in and MT, although Guards still have the edge survivability wise especially until a SK has his 6 set, they can OT with good agro being that the OT group isn't always the ideal group for hate/survivability, and when not tanking they can provide descent DPS. This is what all Plate tanks should be striving to have, and what 3 of the 4 have. Obviously there is still the issue of Guards only having that great 1 spot on a raid...MT, not sure if the edge in survivability offsets the loss of options, but there it is.</blockquote>That "edge" has gotten smaller and smaller so no it does not offset the loss of options. The sad truth is that if a Guard is present in a group or raid.....he better be MT or OT otherwise its a total waste of a slot.Until they can come up with a way for fighters to be desired for something besides tanking we will never be balanced and everyone....not just Guards will expect Guards to be 'the tank'.</blockquote>Thedge has gotten smaller that is for sure. In the past there were a lot of times that if you did not have a Guard for the night you did not even attempt some of the harder content. Yes that has changed. However, with the tools that Guards have for single target tanking they are still the best MT for boss mobs. So, you have 1 Plate that is usually the MT, Guards...unless a guild loses a Guard and has very well geared other tanks until another well geared/played Guard comes along. You have 3 Plate tanks competing for the OT spot, and than also given more versatility to perform in a 3rd tank/DPS role.Guards at the raid level are not hurting at all. At the group instance level with the amount of AE content they are. So, tweak Guards by giving them a little more AE agro and they are gtg.

RafaelSmith

04-24-2009, 01:13 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, SKs have what tanks have been pushing for for a long time. They can step in and MT, although Guards still have the edge survivability wise especially until a SK has his 6 set, they can OT with good agro being that the OT group isn't always the ideal group for hate/survivability, and when not tanking they can provide descent DPS. This is what all Plate tanks should be striving to have, and what 3 of the 4 have. Obviously there is still the issue of Guards only having that great 1 spot on a raid...MT, not sure if the edge in survivability offsets the loss of options, but there it is.</blockquote>That "edge" has gotten smaller and smaller so no it does not offset the loss of options.The sad truth is that if a Guard is present in a group or raid.....he better be MT or OT otherwise its a total waste of a slot.Until they can come up with a way for fighters to be desired for something besides tanking we will never be balanced and everyone....not just Guards will expect Guards to be 'the tank'.</blockquote>Thedge has gotten smaller that is for sure. In the past there were a lot of times that if you did not have a Guard for the night you did not even attempt some of the harder content. Yes that has changed. However, with the tools that Guards have for single target tanking they are still the best MT for boss mobs. So, you have 1 Plate that is usually the MT, Guards...unless a guild loses a Guard and has very well geared other tanks until another well geared/played Guard comes along. You have 3 Plate tanks competing for the OT spot, and than also given more versatility to perform in a 3rd tank/DPS role.Guards at the raid level are not hurting at all. At the group instance level with the amount of AE content they are. So, tweak Guards by giving them a little more AE agro and they are gtg.</blockquote>Well I am not too sure about Guard being the best MT choice for boss mobs anymore. From what ive witnessed thus far SKs do it just as well if not better. What little 'disadvantage' they may have is easily overcome by other classes.But I am nowhere near able to judge that beyond the low tier raiding I do.Assuming its all true.......where does that leave us? Because from what I read the other fighters are not content with being 2nd choice for MT but being able to fill other roles. The fact that that Guardian edge has gotten smaller and smaller proves it. All we do is tank...nothing else....under such a system....If we are not the obvious best...we don't belong in the game....we have nothing else to fall back on in the cases where we do not MT...nothing else to offer. If another fighter type is 95% as good at doing what a Guard can do....but they are 100% better at other things....again whats the point?. There is more to this game than that 1 slot per raid.Fair is fair.......If the other fighters want to be interchangable with Guards for MT spots...then they need to be just as useful(useless) as a Guard is when he is not MT. If SKs wanna be considered equally for raid MT...then they should struggle as much in TSO as we do. Wonder how many would go for that.Maybe other Guards are fine with our only purpose being to show up for raids....where there is only room for 1 of us.

Bruener

04-24-2009, 01:43 PM

<blockquote>Fair is fair.......If the other fighters want to be interchangable with Guards for MT spots...then they need to be just as useful(useless) as a Guard is when he is not MT. If SKs wanna be considered equally for raid MT...then they should struggle as much in TSO as we do. Wonder how many would go for that.</blockquote>Guards have never had to struggle throughout this game. Guards have always been the MT of choice and at times were light years ahead of any other tank. T5 a Guard could get thier survivability up so high that it was like they were tanking Green mobs. RoK Guards were light years ahead of any other plate tank. Do not come here and say that SKs should have to struggle like Guards...because no other tank has had to struggle like SKs in the past.That being said. Guards still have a lock on the MT spot. Yes a few others use other MTs but look up all the raiding guilds and see what kind of tank they are using to progress for MT. So the majority of time that means a guaranteed spot for a Guard on a raid. No other tank has a "guaranteed" type spot because they all operate at the same level. There are 6 fighters and 1 of them has always had and still maintains a monopoly-type hold on 1 spot in a raid. That is why Guards aren't given tools to have multiple of them. In RoK it was bad enough...when you give the "best" single target tank DPS as great or better than the other tanks you end up with a Guard MT and a Guard OT.Instance group Guards, yes I can feel for them a little. It is tough with a good portion of the content being AE mobs to control agro as well as the others. AE content that was almost completely absent in the tier before so they never had a worry about it. Bump up their AE agro slightly. Raiding Guards. Well Boss mobs are still all being tanked as single targets and Guards still have the best tools to handle agro and survive against single targets. They are fine at that end.

RafaelSmith

04-24-2009, 02:03 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do not come here and say that SKs should have to struggle like Guards...because no other tank has had to struggle like SKs in the past.They are fine at that end.</blockquote>Wow your a piece of work.What a selfish way to look at things. Sorry but the argument that because "it sucked for us in the past it ok that it sucks for you now" has no merit. "We suffer now its your turn?" get over yourself.You realize that there is more to the game than top-end raiding? You really think its fair that because I may the potential for a few more % of "surviveability" on my persona window that the rest of the game I want to play is nothing more than a lesson in frustration?Those guilds you mention....are they only using Guards as MTs because that what they are used too? because they spent god knows how long gearing them up and it would be foolish to throw that away? Or because there would be no OTHER reason whatsover to even have those Guards?You know I hate calling for nerfs....I think it brings out the worse of the worse in these games....but when you have selfish players like you that only care for #1....a part of me wants nothing more than for the big nerf bat to smack you hard.

Windowlicker

04-24-2009, 02:06 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have never had to struggle throughout this game. </blockquote>New to the game are we?

Mathafern

04-24-2009, 03:05 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>What a selfish way to look at things. Sorry but the argument that because "it sucked for us in the past it ok that it sucks for you now" has no merit. "We suffer now its your turn?" get over yourself.You realize that there is more to the game than top-end raiding? You really think its fair that because I may the potential for a few more % of "surviveability" on my persona window that the rest of the game I want to play is nothing more than a lesson in frustration?</blockquote>In fairness- you are posting a complaint that you are frustrated with Guardians in TSO on the SK forums.If you are upset that your class doesn't have enough aggro to get through a TSO instance, post that in a thread on the Guardian forums. Otherwise it looks like you're just saying "SK are having fun in TSO. Nerf them."Personally I don't want ANY class to suck. I've been there- but rather than feeling sorry for myself in RoK I just made the best of it. You've only just recently tried starting to make the best of it IMO- when TSO came out you kept going as tanky as possible (which is great) but ignored any opportunity for extra damage from shard gear as a matter of philosophy.Don't get me wrong- I think brawlers and Guards need some love. The SK forum isn't the place to ask for it.

Bruener

04-24-2009, 04:49 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have never had to struggle throughout this game. </blockquote>New to the game are we?</blockquote>Made my toon with the pre-order before launch...how about you?

Bruener

04-24-2009, 04:57 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do not come here and say that SKs should have to struggle like Guards...because no other tank has had to struggle like SKs in the past.They are fine at that end.</blockquote>Wow your a piece of work.What a selfish way to look at things. Sorry but the argument that because "it sucked for us in the past it ok that it sucks for you now" has no merit. "We suffer now its your turn?" get over yourself.You realize that there is more to the game than top-end raiding? You really think its fair that because I may the potential for a few more % of "surviveability" on my persona window that the rest of the game I want to play is nothing more than a lesson in frustration?Those guilds you mention....are they only using Guards as MTs because that what they are used too? because they spent god knows how long gearing them up and it would be foolish to throw that away? Or because there would be no OTHER reason whatsover to even have those Guards?You know I hate calling for nerfs....I think it brings out the worse of the worse in these games....but when you have selfish players like you that only care for #1....a part of me wants nothing more than for the big nerf bat to smack you hard.</blockquote>Hey, I call them as I see them. And for some reason I seem to have a ton more perception than the few Guards that keep complaining about Guard mechanics in the SK forums. I agreed that Guards could use a small tweak to AE agro for the group content. However, what you are asking is for a reason to have 2 Guards on a raid. You want to own the MT spot and than be useful in another spot as well. Guess what you will never find 2 SKs in a descent raid roster. You won't find 2 Zerks on a descent raid roster, and you won't find 2 Paladins on a descent raid roster. So why do you think that Guards should be able to edge the MT spot and also be viable for the other spots? If you want, Guards can play OTs very well as long as there isn't a lot of adds....which is most of the time. A Guard can spec for DPS and gear for DPS and put out just as much ST DPS as a Zerk. However, you made a Guard to spec as defensive as possible, the MT mentality. Hopefully you didn't make a Guard to do good DPS or to have good group utility. The other tanks did.So lets recap. Guards still own ST tanking at the raid level. Guards need a slight boost to AE agro (although reinforce + AEs + 40% AE attack is quite a bit of agro) for the mass amount of AE content in groups that have finally been introduced to the game. Is there something more you want? Let me guess you want to go back to a time like RoK where Guards were THE tank.

Otak

04-24-2009, 05:17 PM

What I want to know is WHY nerf classes cause they are more powerfull than others of its type instead of just buffing up the other classes a little to make them more leveled out with the powerfull one....

Windowlicker

04-24-2009, 05:40 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have never had to struggle throughout this game. </blockquote>New to the game are we?</blockquote>Made my toon with the pre-order before launch...how about you?</blockquote>I've been here since day one. To say that Guardians have never had to struggle through this game is misinformed. And yeah, saying things like that do make you look pretty new.

Nero

04-24-2009, 08:50 PM

Why do Guardians and Berserkers come in the SK forum and say "Nerf SK. Revamp us"?Here is SK forum.To be honest, I don't want other fighters to speak about SK insultingly in the SK forum.

BMonkeeus

04-24-2009, 09:15 PM

Ankle biters rejoice! I've been asking that same question for a while Nero...wish I had the time some of these tools have...

Giral

04-25-2009, 08:26 PM

since the fighter re-vamp was put on hold, and they are looking for input on what the community percieves thier class to be and do , calling for general nerf's at this point is futile.sayin Nerf class X becuase they are overpowered always reminds me of the line from the movie Mozart where the king says " to many notes just cut a few " and mozart responds flatly " which few did you have in mind"is the Sk overpowered currently ? Sk in eq2 when well geared/mastered/mostly aa'd have always broke even at that level and could hold thier wieght against nearly anything in the game(when extremely well played)Sk's stuck at level 80 for so long , that have gotten the much needed tweaks and increases and finaly some Gear that actualy is created for the class. are now seen as overpowered . maybe they are ,maybe they are just percieved that way becuase there is content,gear and thier abilities got tweaked to allow them to actualy do thier job as easily as other tanks have been able to in the past.when the level cap goes up to 90 , and sk's start from scratch once again, will they be overpowered ? or will it take them getting geared/mastered/aa'd to once again be percieved as OP.are normal geared sk's with adpt3's seen as overpowered ?is it just above decent geared/150+ aa'd/well played sk's that are seen as overpowered ?is it raid geared/mythical/max aa'd sk's that are seen as overpowered ?.what exact skills/spells/ability's/buffs/debuffs/Ae's/etc etc etc should be nerfed ? or just generaly nerf sk's back into "jack of all trades master of nothing " over nerfing things without thinking of the majority of the people playing sk's that are casual players will just result in top end sk's being the last plate tank chosen to OT, and the4 last plate tank chosen for grouping, and also hurt thier solo game = fail in every regard if they just generaly nerf Sk's becuase of what the better played/equi[ed sk's can do ( and yes that means skilled players of other classes that have recently started playing Sk's , a skilled player will be able to do things with any toon , as seen in the past by the couple handfull of extremly well played Sk's world wide that utilized the underpowered sk for years in the game).My 2 cents on what would even out the disparity between Single target tanks and AE tanks is simple : ( the Example will use SK only BUT the same would be aplied to Berserkers Skills in a similiar fashion )Sk's already have abilities that increase for each mob in the encounter(up to X amount of mobs) , simply apply this to a few more of thier skills .for example Sk has a Mit syphon, for each mob(up to 8 mobs) in the encounter the Sk will syphon 300 Mitigation(not logged in dont know the exact #'s,, so as you can see Vs one or 2 mobs this skill is nearly worthless , but VS 8 mobs thats 8 x 300 = 2400 mitigation ... can we see how skills like this make the Sk weak vs one or 2 mobs but make them much better Vs 4+ Mobs ?? (not going to go into the Diminishing returns curve here as this is just an example of the way a skill works badly vs 1 to 3 mobs adn works veery well VS 4+ )now if you apply the Above idea to a couple more of the Sk's Skill's they would become even weaker vs single target mobs, thier dps would be lower VS single target mobs and so would thier Agro Vs single target Mobs, and this could all be accomplished by changing just a few abilities the Sk already has , Example Tunat over Time tik on 1 mob = 200 hate, on 2 mobs = 4 hundred, 3 mobs 600 , 4 mobs 800 etc etc etc ...Sk's Damage shield = heals for 300 vs 1 mobs, 600 Vs 2 mobs, 900 Vs 3 mobs, 1200 vs 4 mobs,,etc up to 8 mobsthis way an SK is weaker , has less agro , and less Dps Vs single and Dou target encounters ,3 mobs would be the Break even point, where AE tanks and Single target Tanks would have around the same amount of hate. Agro and DPS ......One and 2 mobs single target tanks would be the hands down best for def,agro,dps, and 4+ mobs AE tanks would be the hands down most Def,DPS, and agro ,, 3 is where the devs should balance it out at.now for single target tanks they would need a few abilities tweaked to give them more def vs 1 to 2 mobs, they would need thier single target DPS raised, and tweak somthing like thier Rescue to hit up to 3 mobs in the encounter so they have another semi-ae snap agro tool . of course they would have to ensure that these skills coundlt be utilised to lock agro vs mutliple mobs and make them overpowered, so make thier Def get less vs a certain amount of mobs ( reverse of the SK increase vs multiple mobs) .... example "when engaged Vs up to 2 mobs your Def increaseses by 100 , for eash mob over 2 the def is lowered by 10 , so vs 8 mobs that would lower it to only granting 20 extra def , but on 3 mobs it would still be 90 = break even point . ( just a general idea but you get the point).can work out more details on the above idea, but the issue is that all tanks are at the moment created equaly , they all do generaly the same things, and this puts AE tanks at an advantage Vs single/Dou mob encounters becuase the way thier skills work = DPS/Agro gives them the same or More agro Vs one or 2 mobs ..i personaly think if SOE wants to have Single and Mutliple target Tanks, then as they created more content ( still no FULL AE raid zones for AE tanks to MT and ST tanks to OT in ) for AE tanks, they need to make them Differant in the way the handle single and multiple mobs, St tanks should be hands down better on 1 or 2 mobs for agro,def, and dps.(yes i said DPs for the umpteenth time, a guardian going all out dps VS a single mob should out DPS an SK on that single target, and an SK going all out on 4,5,6,7,8 mobs should leave the gaurdian in deep ditch anyday of the week)this gives Defined roles , this gives positives and negatives to each tank class,it moves the tanks into what the Devs said the tanks are Single or Multiple,,, no Class should have it all, and for tanks "Tanking" against thier Non speciific types they should have to work for it, and work [Removed for Content] hard. a single target tank should have the tools and abilities to lock agro off a AE tank on 1 and 2 mobs, should have more def then them vs 1 and 2 mobs and edge out more dps then them. ( well geaerd and well played tanks will always play the agro bouncing game, will be able to push thier dps, and def to higher limits, and be almost interchangable vs single or ae mobs with just a slight edge going to one or the other, but thats how it should be at endgame/endgear)anyway , im just back on a 30 day game card : ) , good luck with the revamp tho, the devs said thier listening , now would be the time to be constructive and give ideas, instead of screaming NERF class XX right now, becuase the fighter revamp is still coming, and im sure they will be looking for informative, well written, posts to try and base Some of thier changes on,,,,, what do you see AE tanks as ? and what do you see Single target tanks as? what would improve eaches Domination in thier aera? what would help cement the positions down the road in the future of the game ?Sk's will get some changes with the fighter revamp, of that you can be sure, so get things changed for the better in a Equal way , instead of letting the screaming and yelling just get you nerfed back into the red headed step children again . Sk'a are AE tanks, and at that they should PWN all (equaly with Zerkers, but Sk's even when underpowered PWned Zerk's /Demz Jus Jokes Lygar,,,Dems jus Jokez )

Nero

04-25-2009, 11:36 PM

If I'm not wrong, even the concept of single target/AE tank was abolished when fighter revamp was decided to be started again from the beginning.To be honest, I don't like ST/AE tank concept.

Giral

04-26-2009, 12:15 AM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I'm not wrong, even the concept of single target/AE tank was abolished when fighter revamp was decided to be started again from the beginning.To be honest, I don't like ST/AE tank concept.</blockquote>its funny becuase the St / AE tank Label the devs used , was just that a label, Sk's were Ae based tanks way befor TSO, always had a rougher time on single targets(No single target tanks were complaining about ST vs AE tanks back then were they ? o right becuase the devs hadnt put a dumb label on it) poeple cried " give us a role, tell us what you want us to be " and so the devs Give a name to what is already existing in the game and other poeple get [Removed for Content] off that we now have single and AE tanks, when we have always had more ae focused and single target focused tanks. the only thing that realy changed was peoples perception , arent zerkers pretty much the same as they have always been ? are poeple crying becuase Zerkers are Ae tanks like they have been for years ? nopealso the addition of Much long over due AE focused group zones brought outcries from single target tanks, and i know i read in many threads from many classes all thru ROK, if they would just add in More AE content then AE tanks and AE classes would be happy and more balanced becuase it was so single target heavy, so they add in AE content in TSo and the now its an Issue ? becuase the devs put a label to ST and AE tanks , if they never did would the AE group zones be such an issue ?yes the devs can never win , you will always [Removed for Content] people off no matter what way you go.if the devs had never said ST VS AE Tank , fixed the Sk's people would just be complaining about sk's being overpowered instead of complaining about ST Vs Ae tanks..if they completely revamp fighters with no St or AE tanks in mind, then i can only shudder to think how bland the figther types will become, all with basicly the same amount of st and ae tuants and skills, all given a few basic buffs so nobody can cry XX classes buff is better then mine in X situation, etc etc etc etc..the fighter classes are pretty close to balanced atm, giving guards a little more ae agro, take away a bit of the sk's single target agro, give the aviodance tanks a little love, etc , a few ups and downs and the fighters would be well enough to fight it out amongst themselves instead of going thru yet another re-vamp, months of testing, to put something on live that might suck all to hell and will be based off a few handfull of peoples limited experiances on Test trying , with most of thier /reports ignored, with various things implimented as they were on test in this fighter revamp that was scrapped .this last fighter revamp that was scrapped took months , all for nothing, in that time the few minor and 1 or 2 major disparities between tanks currently on live could have been tweeked and refined 100 times over. and the majority of people would be satisfied with the current tank balancepersonaly the Label of Ae tank means nothing to me, having MT'd Raids for years on my SK vs single target mobs i never heard a complaint about AE tanking , yes it was tougher, yes single target agro took a bit longer for me to lock down, yes i was less def then a guard( and in Rok alot less def), so what , i wasnt an ST tank then , i was an AE tank making my skills work in an ST role, i find it funny that now the tables are turned its such a Issue . but whatever.i'd rather see tanks split more , and more various content added , like actual AE raids that demand an AE MT thru the entire raid, and have hard hitting single adds that ST tanks would be best on, but meh i never held my breath on that one : )another tank revamp = unneeded , things are close enough, iron out what you have now and move on.

Bruener

04-26-2009, 02:35 PM

Golbezz

04-26-2009, 11:31 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know I hate calling for nerfs....I think it brings out the worse of the worse in these games....but when you have selfish players like you that only care for #1....a part of me wants nothing more than for the big nerf bat to smack you hard. </blockquote>Do all the players from mistmoore server whine as much as you? It seems when someone is whining in a thread and calling for nerfs they have @mistmoore behind their character name.I have played my brigand with guards tanking TSO instances and while they have to change targets more often to hold aggro they are still very capable of tanking. A guard calling for SK nerfs is like an assassin wanting rogues nerfed because they are getting to close to the top of the parse.If you have trouble tanking and holding aggro as a guard maybe you should roll a Paladin. I hear they have this great spell called amends that makes tanking and holding aggro trivial.

Windowlicker

04-27-2009, 08:43 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Talk is cheap. </blockquote>You're right, it is. There's no point in even getting into a discussion with you, so I'll just wait for the adjustments to hit live.

Tiberuis

04-29-2009, 01:05 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Those guilds you mention....are they only using Guards as MTs because that what they are used too? because they spent god knows how long gearing them up and it would be foolish to throw that away? Or because there would be no OTHER reason whatsover to even have those Guards?</blockquote>lolYou Warriors trolling our class boards calling for nerfs are such a joke.Guardians have an almost ABSOLUTE monopoly on the Raid MT position in this game. That's right. A MONOPOLY on the TOP TANKING SPOT for the TOP CONTENT in the game. Sheesh.Your argument that all of the raid guilds on all of our servers are still using Guardians as Raid MT because they feel sorry for them, and don't want the gear to go to waste is such nonsense, it is almost beyond belief.The Raiding Beserker in my Guild, similarly geared and mastered to my SK, still outparses me half the time. He kicked my butt in last TSO raid on the ACT parse.You are only calling for nerfs because SK's are challenging you for those Group and Raid Off Tank spots in the game. Go troll your nonsense somewhere else. And enjoy your next automatic Raid invite to the Main Tank group, without having to compete for it.

BMonkeeus

04-29-2009, 02:30 PM

You hit the nail on the head there Tiber, bring just a little competition to the table and the whiners flood every EQ related board with crys/whines of NERF! You think any of these jackarses were advocating for us back when we were the red-headed stepchildren of instance groups, wont even mention raids? It does make for good ankle-biting, troll, eepeen envy reading, reading these whines I suppose...

Golbezz

04-29-2009, 05:34 PM

<cite>BMonkeeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>You hit the nail on the head there Tiber, bring just a little competition to the table and the whiners flood every EQ related board with crys/whines of NERF! You think any of these jackarses were advocating for us back when we were the red-headed stepchildren of instance groups, wont even mention raids? It does make for good ankle-biting, troll, eepeen envy reading, reading these whines I suppose...</blockquote>The people who need to be really careful calling for nerfs are those who play the classes that are a bit weak currently. If the class they view as too strong gets nerfed that doesn't mean they will be made better. It might in fact mean they get left in a weak state which is exactly what they would deserve for all their whining and calling for nerfs on another class rather than just fighting to get their class fixed.

Windowlicker

04-30-2009, 08:39 AM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are only calling for nerfs because SK's are challenging you for those Group and Raid Off Tank spots in the game. </blockquote>I think you're completely missing the point. What other classes need to "compete" for the same spot? When your raid leader slots you into the caster group to increase your dps, do you need to worry about a Guardian or a Berserker taking that spot away from you?The problem with your class is damage output and hate gain. Those items can be reduced without having any effect on your survivability.On the other hand, I can imagine it might be pretty scarey to some of you to actually have to "compete" for those spots on an even playfield right?

Terron

04-30-2009, 12:14 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Talk is cheap. Try throwing some actual examples out there when Guardians were struggling. </blockquote>DoF - the one I started with.I could not solo a blue no arrow mob on my guard, and because of that I could not earn money or get decent equipment (except from HQs). So I couldn't tank either. I remember when I got to level 40 and was able for the first time to afford a full set of on tier handcrafted armour - a big step up for me as I has been using mostly treasured armour dropped by green mobs.This week I soloed a ^^^ heroic mob only 5 levels below me - which was three better than I had previously managed on my guard.My SK has always been miles better when soloing.

Norrsken

04-30-2009, 12:54 PM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Talk is cheap. Try throwing some actual examples out there when Guardians were struggling. </blockquote>DoF - the one I started with.I could not solo a blue no arrow mob on my guard, and because of that I could not earn money or get decent equipment (except from HQs). So I couldn't tank either. I remember when I got to level 40 and was able for the first time to afford a full set of on tier handcrafted armour - a big step up for me as I has been using mostly treasured armour dropped by green mobs.This week I soloed a ^^^ heroic mob only 5 levels below me - which was three better than I had previously managed on my guard.My SK has always been miles better when soloing.</blockquote>Ah, but back then, handcrafted was actually something you *could* use and not look like a hobo. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Since then we've had plenty of mudflation.

Bruener

04-30-2009, 02:38 PM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Talk is cheap. Try throwing some actual examples out there when Guardians were struggling. </blockquote>DoF - the one I started with.I could not solo a blue no arrow mob on my guard, and because of that I could not earn money or get decent equipment (except from HQs). So I couldn't tank either. I remember when I got to level 40 and was able for the first time to afford a full set of on tier handcrafted armour - a big step up for me as I has been using mostly treasured armour dropped by green mobs.This week I soloed a ^^^ heroic mob only 5 levels below me - which was three better than I had previously managed on my guard.My SK has always been miles better when soloing.</blockquote>Yep, the time that tanks in general had a terrible time solo'ing. However, at that time Guards were still the MT of choice and able to tank all content no problem, and were the preferred MT. I would hardly call that struggling.

Heelo

04-30-2009, 06:30 PM

I think this has been stated berore...but most of teh og sks from pre TSO had to play twice as hard as the other tanks to earn a spot in a raid guild. Now after finally receiving much need love from soe we appear to be more op than we really are, I mean come on....why shouldn't be be able to tank anything the other fighters can. Hell...our MT guard DW's like 90% of the time and rips up the parse. People need to stop crying imo.

Windowlicker

05-01-2009, 08:38 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>Yep, the time that tanks in general had a terrible time solo'ing. However, at that time Guards were still the MT of choice and able to tank all content no problem, and were the preferred MT. I would hardly call that struggling.</blockquote>The Guard should be the MT of choice, and able to tank all content with no problem. That is what a Guardian is. The entire idea behind that class is the best survivability out of all the tanks.It's pretty simple to see why people would want the class with the best survivability tanking the hardest content.

Bruener

05-01-2009, 01:06 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>Yep, the time that tanks in general had a terrible time solo'ing. However, at that time Guards were still the MT of choice and able to tank all content no problem, and were the preferred MT. I would hardly call that struggling.</blockquote>The Guard should be the MT of choice, and able to tank all content with no problem. That is what a Guardian is. The entire idea behind that class is the best survivability out of all the tanks.It's pretty simple to see why people would want the class with the best survivability tanking the hardest content.</blockquote>Once again Zahne manages to jump into a conversation and comment on something I said without taking the whole conversation into context. Yes Guards should be the MT of choice. Guards are the MT of choice. And the point I was proving to posts before is that it has ALWAYS been that way. Guards come here complaining and they have not had to deal with entire x-pacs where they were completely behind the curve compared to the other tanks. Guards still do their job the best and have no room to complain.Furthermore, just because a tank has the best survivability does not make him the best tank of choice. Yes in teh beginning of x-pacs and through progression the tank with the best survivability is going to win out, as they should. As content becomes trivial other tanks start easily stepping into the role because everybody is far into diminishing returns, tanks in general survive better, healers heal better. So, suddenly that Crusader or Zerker that has an edge in agro control as well becomes more tempting because DPS has also been increasing, exponentially compared to everybody else. Guess what as a SK on a lot of the content I can go MT with a choker and JoA on because it is trivial. Guards start tanking trivial content DW'ing wearing offensive gear (but lets be honest, it seems that only a few Guards have learned the secret of balancing survivability with DPS).Suddenly this is an issue? Wow, yep a SK can MT, we are almost half-way through an expansion. Content is trivialized for many people. The tanks are geared to the teeth. DPS wants to go all out all the time and not expect to be responsible at all. Guard leaves, why replace him? Why not let one of the other tanks MT that has plenty of survivability for the content being fought.

Windowlicker

05-01-2009, 03:15 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Suddenly this is an issue? Wow, yep a SK can MT, we are almost half-way through an expansion. Content is trivialized for many people. </blockquote>You act like the SK was never capable of acting as MT. Maybe you had problems, but I know at least a half dozen on Mistmoore that have been acting as MT for years.

Bruener

05-01-2009, 11:08 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Suddenly this is an issue? Wow, yep a SK can MT, we are almost half-way through an expansion. Content is trivialized for many people. </blockquote>You act like the SK was never capable of acting as MT. Maybe you had problems, but I know at least a half dozen on Mistmoore that have been acting as MT for years.</blockquote>Yeah, and you act like Warriors actually have issues tanking in this x-pac.

therodge

05-02-2009, 09:12 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Suddenly this is an issue? Wow, yep a SK can MT, we are almost half-way through an expansion. Content is trivialized for many people. </blockquote>You act like the SK was never capable of acting as MT. Maybe you had problems, but I know at least a half dozen on Mistmoore that have been acting as MT for years.</blockquote>yep their are a couple theirs also a monk that was the mt of a high end raid guild yep their perfectly fine yep seen a summoner parse 20k yep personally fine oooo i know a temp that does 8k dps yep OPed dps on them templars

Nulgara

05-04-2009, 04:14 AM

Feel free to discount my opinion (I've been gone a year) but I just read through this entire thread and Im litteraly laughing out loud.Its like a whole bunch of omg SK's are OP nerf em, omg they can hold agro better then me( FYI we always could). oh and seriously SK's on a raid have ALWAYS done nice dps. but most of you woudlnt know that cause 90% of raids woudlnt even wave to an SK riding by let alone invite them to a raid. Now all of a sudden with the survivability increases SK's are actually getting the spots ona raid they deserve without having to prove their skill cause their class was gimped.you wanna know WHY all these SK's are performing so well. SKILL. I'ld be willing to bet that all of these best SK's your seeing out there are the ones that continued to play that SK through all the BS through all the being treated like crap by everyone, and guess what they know everything about their class and every smidge of power they can push out of it and now your getting a taste of how good those players really are.I say GREAT. its about time the "REAL" tank (Hah) got a taste of what its liek to have to prove yourself worthy of the spot you were handed from day 1.Sadly I can not comment on these "DPS" issues yet havent been back long enough to taste them thoroughly, so I wont comment. please stop the nerf herding. BTW SK's main source of hate for a very long time was their dps ability. now after looking over all teh info out there with this new expansion and such sure they coudl prolly tone it down a bit and sk's wont have a problem keeping their agro, but again I cant really comment in-depth on that one yet either.If I'm coming off a little bitter. oh well. your not the ones that had to bite and claw and scrape for a long time to get a shred of respect personally cause no one was respecting our class thats for sure. now your eyes are open to all the truely great players that have been there for a long time remaining loyal to the SK class cause being an SK wasnt a nice sweet ride to the top it was a street fight every day to get a little bit more respect. Now the class is what it shoudl have been on day 1 an EQUALLY CAPABLE MAIN TANK..

Antryg Mistrose

05-04-2009, 05:22 AM

<cite>Maahes@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Feel free to discount my opinion</blockquote>Good, I will.The majority of the SKs you see running around now are the power levelled, flavour of the month followers, who have no clue how to play. Any SK who was serious about tanking has long since betrayed or rerolled. SOME of those might be coming back out of mothballs or betraying again, but thats the tiny minority.(This is speaking as someone who played a SK for 3 years, back when it was actually hard).

Uggli

05-04-2009, 11:49 AM

Wrong. You were just too weak a player to keep with the SK in the past. So you betrayed. Nothing wrong with that, but atleast be honest. On Kithicor there are a handful of new SK's, but the vast majority are the same SKs that have always been around. Or betrayed pallies who think the grass is greener.

Nulgara

05-04-2009, 11:56 AM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>The majority of the SKs you see running around now are the power levelled, flavour of the month followers, who have no clue how to play. </blockquote>thats the nature of the beast isnt it? people see a class doing well and perceive them as being better then theirs and whooosh now all of a sudden theres tons of em.. happens on avg what? every 6 months in an mmo. when they do their planned fighter changes it'll even back out as it always does, that or something else will take its place.Besides if they dont know how to play the class they wont be keeping their spot in groups and raids for long so thats a moot point.anyway, after re-reading my own post I suppose my point didnt actually get conveyed heh(hadnt slept in awhile when i wrote that heh). my point was that guards have ALWAYS been handed their spot, they didnt have to earn it like SK's did. Now they god forbid actually have to compete for a tank spot with another tank.. that is a GOOD thing. there were 6 tanks on day 1 and for a long time guards (and zerkers allbeit a smaller portion) where considered the ONLY raid MT's which is BS and everyone here knows it. now crusaders can finally compete in the top end tanking arena, thats a good thing and should have been from day 1.anyway like i said though why cry for nerfs? ask for balance not nerfs. the dmg will get balanced it always does. if your a guard and cant produce enough hate then either 1 ask for more hate tools or better hate in the ones you have or 2 maybe your dps needs a boost to bring it back into balance. but if your comparisons are on multi mob fights and not single target hate then your prolly where you should be. sk and zerks are THE ae tanks and should maintain better ae hate then the others.you guys shoudl really take a look back through the years and apart from a few yould find most of the sk's throughout never asked for the other tanks to get nerfed they always asked for fixes for themselves. take a queue from that and the end result might actually be something you want.

BMonkeeus

05-04-2009, 02:30 PM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maahes@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Feel free to discount my opinion</blockquote>Good, I will.The majority of the SKs you see running around now are the power levelled, flavour of the month followers, who have no clue how to play. Any SK who was serious about tanking has long since betrayed or rerolled. SOME of those might be coming back out of mothballs or betraying again, but thats the tiny minority.(This is speaking as someone who played a SK for 3 years, back when it was actually hard)</blockquote>I'll feel free to discount this fools opinion actually.

Uggli

06-17-2009, 04:02 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uggliey wrote:</cite><blockquote>I suggest you look for ANY comment about damage reduction made by a dev after the changes were scrapped. **hint** You won't find one</blockquote>Well, keep this post bumped near the top then. We'll revisit your comment late spring early summer this year.</blockquote>Well is it now late spring/early summer? The only specifc SK change was a FIX to make an ability BETTER. Hows that humble pie taste?

Nicholai24

06-18-2009, 10:50 AM

I'll repeat what I said last time: Rest easy. There are no changes on the board (major ones) for the SK scheduled for a very, very, very long time.

Nicholai24

06-18-2009, 10:51 AM

( You folks can feel free to keep tossing your pleas for 'balancing' down a bottomless well, though. It's not going to happen, of course, but it's fun to watch people waste their effort. As for us, we've had a good enough taste of that brand of 'balance'. We're happy where we are, now, thanks. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> )

LygerT

06-18-2009, 05:42 PM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Feel free to discount my opinion (I've been gone a year) but I just read through this entire thread and Im litteraly laughing out loud.Its like a whole bunch of omg SK's are OP nerf em, omg they can hold agro better then me( FYI we always could). oh and seriously SK's on a raid have ALWAYS done nice dps. but most of you woudlnt know that cause 90% of raids woudlnt even wave to an SK riding by let alone invite them to a raid. Now all of a sudden with the survivability increases SK's are actually getting the spots ona raid they deserve without having to prove their skill cause their class was gimped.you wanna know WHY all these SK's are performing so well. SKILL. I'ld be willing to bet that all of these best SK's your seeing out there are the ones that continued to play that SK through all the BS through all the being treated like crap by everyone, and guess what they know everything about their class and every smidge of power they can push out of it and now your getting a taste of how good those players really are.I say GREAT. its about time the "REAL" tank (Hah) got a taste of what its liek to have to prove yourself worthy of the spot you were handed from day 1.Sadly I can not comment on these "DPS" issues yet havent been back long enough to taste them thoroughly, so I wont comment. please stop the nerf herding. BTW SK's main source of hate for a very long time was their dps ability. now after looking over all teh info out there with this new expansion and such sure they coudl prolly tone it down a bit and sk's wont have a problem keeping their agro, but again I cant really comment in-depth on that one yet either.If I'm coming off a little bitter. oh well. your not the ones that had to bite and claw and scrape for a long time to get a shred of respect personally cause no one was respecting our class thats for sure. now your eyes are open to all the truely great players that have been there for a long time remaining loyal to the SK class cause being an SK wasnt a nice sweet ride to the top it was a street fight every day to get a little bit more respect. Now the class is what it shoudl have been on day 1 an EQUALLY CAPABLE MAIN TANK..</blockquote>i've played most of the tank classes and rolled an SK as well, the class is easy to learn, if you want to think it is skill that makes them now a good class then you can keep thinking that is the case.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-19-2009, 01:40 AM

The SK is an extremely versetile class... with different roles and hats to wear... u gotta have skill... knowing what arts to do and when not to do it and still parse decently esp if you are in a situation where you dont want to pull agro... please dont think its not skill... Knowing when to hold taunts in groups saving it for that "oh crap" moment.. Since the procs "fix" tho its a whole new ball game of re-adjustment for everyone so lets see how it goes now.. I do agree that the learning curve got a bit smaller with the TSO SK, and now there are all these new SK's that are really not good at all cuz they play the flavor of the day class in the expansion and think that button mashing wins the day :c(

Wasuna

06-19-2009, 03:04 PM

I'm sorry, but massive AOE's (some DOT's), a 'Magic Purple Button' and an AOE 20-30 second rescue does not equal skill. It equals easy. That said I fully understand that easch class has skills and play style that has to be learned and followed based on the various fight circumstance.In the end, SK's are just like every class in the game in terms of difficulty in learning to play. Agro is pretty easy for them but in the end, as a Guardian, I just click buttons also. It just so happens that my buttons don't effect the same stuff that an SK's buttons do. Unfortunatly the SK's buttons do effect the same stuff my buttons do. That's the problem. How much extra agro is worth how much extra surivibailty? Though, with life taps and such I'd argue the definition of survivability also outside of a raid enviroment.I've been in a TSO Guk instance with a SK tanking and he had two groups of mobs on him. The healer only healed him once while we killed the mobs due to his life taps and AOE life taps. That was an odd case but I can guarantee you that would NEVER happen with me and that is what I call survivability.So, how much extra agro abilility for an SK is worth absolutly nothing for a Guardian?I'm actually happy with my Guardian beacue I group with friends and we have fun. I'm very well equiped with almost 15K HP solo, my mythical, 70%+ avoidance and 65% mitigation solo. I only have 2 pieces of fabled and my mythical and the rest is all Legendary. I have 198 AA's and these AA exp changes will finally get me to 200. All of that being said, I will always argue that there should be balance back and forth and right now there isn't much even though it doesn't directly effect me much.

Landiin

06-19-2009, 05:14 PM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>The SK is an extremely versetile class... with different roles and hats to wear... u gotta have skill... knowing what arts to do and when not to do it and still parse decently esp if you are in a situation where you dont want to pull agro... please dont think its not skill... Knowing when to hold taunts in groups saving it for that "oh crap" moment.. Since the procs "fix" tho its a whole new ball game of re-adjustment for everyone so lets see how it goes now.. I do agree that the learning curve got a bit smaller with the TSO SK, and now there are all these new SK's that are really not good at all cuz they play the flavor of the day class in the expansion and think that button mashing wins the day :c(</blockquote>You kidding right? a 2 year old can play a sk good.. All u have to do is mash buttons.. No thought is required..

Phelon_Skellhound

06-19-2009, 08:13 PM

agreed, anyone can mash butons but it still equals group death in the end... I would be weary of the sk that would even think this... it all depends on what playstyle you choose... tank/offtank/DPS.. The class can wear all these hats but where they focus is dependant on the situation and the playstyle of the person behind the toon.. they can mix and match if they wanted... But only a skilled person can do all the for mentioned. What are the goals and can one acheive them in a quick efficient manor.. The faster the better... the harder or the more patient... And there isnt anyway to say things that others would comprehend as rubbing salt into open festering wounds... too many factors to phycho analyze on why tank x feels tank y is more ubar and so on so forth.. Raid tank vs Casual tank.. Gear or no gear... aa or no aa.. shard or no shard.. yada yada yada and so forth... There is no doubt that every tank carries with them the pride in what they can do... So it is easy to see the foot in the door class as seen by others as now the flavor of the day and walking boastfully perhaps after being down trodden for so many expansions...What we see now is sorta the reversal of roles... it took a skilled sk to tank as well as a warrior... now its the otherway around... So comes TSO and what happens to these skilled players? Because they got so skilled in the previous expansions, they are now the most highly sought persons for groups cuz of the upgrades they recieved in TSO.. It's not because of the upgrades its because they had the skill to use them with maximum effieciency.. I could have said something like "All those years sitting in your high chair and then suddenly you are made to work as much as the sk did in the prior expansions?" But I did not..keeping in mind as this is not a flame thread... what kind of question should one be asking themselves... Are you the kind to be quick with nerfing everything in sight or the kind to call for class improvements for the other classes...I have no doubt there may be some kind minor hate reduction to SK as this is the one everyone and there mother sees, but I also see an improvement across the board to the other tank classes... That is what I want to see

LygerT

06-19-2009, 09:15 PM

will the other fighters get a bump up to be equal in those areas? likely not.i still don't see why some of you think the class takes as much skill to play anymore though or that is why the class is shining. if you can read and if you know what a parser is then the SK is easier to learn than any other fighter now.

Bruener

06-20-2009, 10:38 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>will the other fighters get a bump up to be equal in those areas? likely not.i still don't see why some of you think the class takes as much skill to play anymore though or that is why the class is shining. if you can read and if you know what a parser is then the SK is easier to learn than any other fighter now.</blockquote>Because unlike playing a T1 DPS class playing a SK good is definitely not all about the parser. Yes, when I want to, when I throw on DPS gear I can parse pretty well....almost double the DPS of the other SK that is on the raid sometimes with similar type gear in a similar type group. I have been doing a long time as a SK. However, more importantly I am a tank. And when I slap on my tank gear I could care less what my parse is...and a lot of times on fights like Anashti and Tyrannus where I am not cpam clicking to optimize my DPS my DPS is a lot lower. The important thing is hoding agro and being able to use the "survivability" tools that I have to get the job done...you know the tools that Guards have more of.No playing a SK is not rocket science. But it is just like any other class where the really good people can make the class look fantastic. You know, like that parse on the other site showing a necro blowing everybody else up on a ZW of palace trash. Or like that Illu parse over there that beats all the other T1 DPS classes.There is no nerf coming because no nerf is warranted. SKs excel in agro but have less survivability. Near the end of the expansion it looks real good because content becomes trivial and it starts to become better to use a tank that can lock down mobs easier. On progression mobs it is a different story....the same old story actually.

Davngr1

06-20-2009, 10:04 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because unlike playing a T1 DPS class playing a SK good is definitely not all about the parser. Yes, when I want to, when I throw on DPS gear I can parse pretty well....almost double the DPS of the other SK that is on the raid sometimes with similar type gear in a similar type group. I have been doing a long time as a SK. However, more importantly I am a tank. And when I slap on my tank gear I could care less what my parse is...and a lot of times on fights like Anashti and Tyrannus where I am not cpam clicking to optimize my DPS my DPS is a lot lower. The important thing is hoding agro and being able to use the "survivability" tools that I have to get the job done...you know the tools that Guards have more of.No playing a SK is not rocket science. But it is just like any other class where the really good people can make the class look fantastic. You know, like that parse on the other site showing a necro blowing everybody else up on a ZW of palace trash. Or like that Illu parse over there that beats all the other T1 DPS classes.There is no nerf coming because no nerf is warranted. SKs excel in agro but have less survivability. Near the end of the expansion it looks real good because content becomes trivial and it starts to become better to use a tank that can lock down mobs easier. On progression mobs it is a different story....the same old story actually.</blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>However, more importantly I am a tank. And when I slap on my tank gear I could care less what my parse is...and a lot of times on fights like Anashti and Tyrannus where I am not cpam clicking to optimize my DPS my DPS is a lot lower. The important thing is hoding agro and being able to use the "survivability" tools that I have to get the job done...you know the tools that Guards have more of.No playing a SK is not rocket science. But it is just like any other class where the really good people can make the class look fantastic. You know, like that parse on the other site showing a necro blowing everybody else up on a ZW of palace trash. Or like that Illu parse over there that beats all the other T1 DPS classes</blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The important thing is hoding agro and being able to use the "survivability" tools that I have to get the job done...you know the tools that Guards have more of</blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>"survivability" tools that I have to get the job done...you know the tools that Guards have more of</blockquote> see this here is the problem.. how many more "survivability" tools do guards have exactly? edit. BTW in no way do i want SK nerfed but i do think the lines are bluring and there needs to be some adjusting to let all tanks shine at what they do in all content.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-21-2009, 03:09 PM

I agree with Bruener... There are good players who know their classes inside and out and excel so much so that leaves others behind.. thats every class across the board...I also agree with Dav.. There indeed needs to be some sort of improvement to the class defining abilities and arts according to the "vision" SOE has for the tanks in order for them to be just as good as each other...

RafaelSmith

06-22-2009, 09:30 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The important thing is hoding agro and being able to use the "survivability" tools that I have to get the job done...you know the tools that Guards have more of.</blockquote>Lets see.....to have any hope of holding aggro I have to sacrifice tank gear for DPS gear, use O-stance and dual wield.....how's that for surviveability compared to what an SK has when locking aggro and tanking?And just how many more of these 'tools' does a Guard have over a SK?Must be nice to see the game thru rose colored glasses whlie in a state of denial.

Bruener

06-22-2009, 12:07 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The important thing is hoding agro and being able to use the "survivability" tools that I have to get the job done...you know the tools that Guards have more of.</blockquote>Lets see.....to have any hope of holding aggro I have to sacrifice tank gear for DPS gear, use O-stance and dual wield.....how's that for surviveability compared to what an SK has when locking aggro and tanking?And just how many more of these 'tools' does a Guard have over a SK?Must be nice to see the game thru rose colored glasses whlie in a state of denial.</blockquote>You act like sacrificing defense for offense is something new.....oh wait, thats right coming off of the huge high of RoK Guards did not have to do that at all. You do realize that the other tank classes have always had to do this. If you look at my profile you will note a mixture of DPS gear and tank gear to maximize my toon. I know it is something that our Guard knows how to do as well, which is why he can lock agro pretty good. I am sorry you can't go straight defensive anymore AND still expect to hold agro.As far as the tools that Guards have.....its not so much the number of tools, although they do have more, as it is the refresh on those tools. As a SK my Bloodletter has a 3 min recast and CANNOT be cast in combat. My Furor which is a 15 sec Tsunami-like buff has a similar recast. And my 1 stoneskin final AA ability is something like 1.5 min recast. Now since I am at work and not really feeling up to looking up all the Guard abilities and posting them just so you can see what you already know...Guards have more abilities with faster recast.It must suck to play the game through [Removed for Content]-colored glasses.

Bruener

06-22-2009, 12:08 PM

Edit: double post

LygerT

06-22-2009, 01:25 PM

try tanking with your 2 hander, you'll see the comparison that you once forgot that SKs had to live with that warriors still have to.

RafaelSmith

06-22-2009, 01:29 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The important thing is hoding agro and being able to use the "survivability" tools that I have to get the job done...you know the tools that Guards have more of.</blockquote>Lets see.....to have any hope of holding aggro I have to sacrifice tank gear for DPS gear, use O-stance and dual wield.....how's that for surviveability compared to what an SK has when locking aggro and tanking?And just how many more of these 'tools' does a Guard have over a SK?Must be nice to see the game thru rose colored glasses whlie in a state of denial.</blockquote>You act like sacrificing defense for offense is something new.....oh wait, thats right coming off of the huge high of RoK Guards did not have to do that at all. You do realize that the other tank classes have always had to do this. If you look at my profile you will note a mixture of DPS gear and tank gear to maximize my toon. I know it is something that our Guard knows how to do as well, which is why he can lock agro pretty good. I am sorry you can't go straight defensive anymore AND still expect to hold agro.</blockquote>So its ok that you get 'almost as good' surviveability...and in some ways better and more useful tools for a larger variety of the games content......do not have to give up your sheild.....can lock aggro....and can top the DPS charts all at the same time?FYI while things might be 'ok' in raids....where Guards still shine on a select few encounters...........things are not ok in the other 95% of the games content.While Guards might be able to get by with top end gear and not always having hater buffers/xfers....those without the top-end gear cannot while crusaders in even less gear get by just fine.Last I checked there was no disclaimer on the character creation screen that Guards would only be useful for a few raid targets.I know its hard but try to look at the entire game when thinking about fighter balance......not just one segment......and stop with this......'It sucked for us in the past....now its your turn". Thats selfish and will only fuel more of this seesaw approach to balance from SOE.........do you really want to see some other fighter become the OP FOTM class next expansion? Or would you prefer seeing a system where all fighters can compete equally across all the games content?And lets not forget the Brawlers either who have it even worse.

BMonkeeus

06-22-2009, 02:37 PM

Love the green envy...LOVE IT.

Bruener

06-22-2009, 04:06 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The important thing is hoding agro and being able to use the "survivability" tools that I have to get the job done...you know the tools that Guards have more of.</blockquote>Lets see.....to have any hope of holding aggro I have to sacrifice tank gear for DPS gear, use O-stance and dual wield.....how's that for surviveability compared to what an SK has when locking aggro and tanking?And just how many more of these 'tools' does a Guard have over a SK?Must be nice to see the game thru rose colored glasses whlie in a state of denial.</blockquote>You act like sacrificing defense for offense is something new.....oh wait, thats right coming off of the huge high of RoK Guards did not have to do that at all. You do realize that the other tank classes have always had to do this. If you look at my profile you will note a mixture of DPS gear and tank gear to maximize my toon. I know it is something that our Guard knows how to do as well, which is why he can lock agro pretty good. I am sorry you can't go straight defensive anymore AND still expect to hold agro.</blockquote>So its ok that you get 'almost as good' surviveability...and in some ways better and more useful tools for a larger variety of the games content......do not have to give up your sheild.....can lock aggro....and can top the DPS charts all at the same time?FYI while things might be 'ok' in raids....where Guards still shine on a select few encounters...........things are not ok in the other 95% of the games content.While Guards might be able to get by with top end gear and not always having hater buffers/xfers....those without the top-end gear cannot while crusaders in even less gear get by just fine.Last I checked there was no disclaimer on the character creation screen that Guards would only be useful for a few raid targets.I know its hard but try to look at the entire game when thinking about fighter balance......not just one segment......and stop with this......'It sucked for us in the past....now its your turn". Thats selfish and will only fuel more of this seesaw approach to balance from SOE.........do you really want to see some other fighter become the OP FOTM class next expansion? Or would you prefer seeing a system where all fighters can compete equally across all the games content?And lets not forget the Brawlers either who have it even worse.</blockquote>No, the problem I have is the fact that Guards are still the BEST MT of choice in the raid game....because yes 99% of the content is still ST for the boss mobs. So than we get to the non-raid content and guess what, half the content is still 1-3 targets linked. Something easily controlled by any tank. Not to mention that the majority of boss mobs in group content are still....get this ST!!!!!!Ding, ding, ding. The few Guards that seem to have an "issue" are really in the minority. Go ahead and check out the "other" site where somebody tried to make a post complaining about it. Not only was he berated in the Guard forums by his fellow Guards but he was also called out in the general forums by both his fellow Guards and various other players.I am fine with giving Guards a *bump* with agro if they really think they deserve to lock down mobs no problem. I am also even fine with giving Guards a small, very small, bump in AE agro to help them out with the half content they don't excel in. However, I am not fine with Guards making it sound like they are broken when in fact the class works fine. I am not fine with Guards complaining about other classes, that finally got the fix they deserved, complaining that they should be nerfed. I am not fine with Guards thinking they should be the "best" tank in game. They had that moment, it has passed....and it is never coming back.

Davngr1

06-22-2009, 06:10 PM

look man guards where not always the best tank in game ONLY myth guards where OP and ONLY in one expansion... all the other expansions guards where midiocre boring tanks with agro problems and almost impossible to solo and quest with.. you might "remember" different cos you're thinking of your raid outfited guard.. i rember raid outfitted SK that use to pawn too good luck convencing anyone that was a broken class after grouping/raiding with them. SK is fine where it is, I'm glad that the class has finaly found a combination that worked since everything else soe has tried with the class has failed. still that don't change the fact that guards have about as much longevity abilitys as other plate tanks. tos= all the other plate tanks have something like it or better sphere= all the other plate tanks have something like it or betterblock= all the other plate tanks have something like it or better yes guards have more mitt buffs then crusaders but with all the +base mitt gear those regulated values that the buffs add are almost insignificant, i mean what exactly does 5% mitt amount to? 5k hit = 250 hp? lol you can probly regen for that much. SK where difficult to play for a LONG time and indeed to revive what was almost a dead class something drastic had to be done. i just soe start balancing class instead of over powering some and screwing the others.. it's dumb

Bruener

06-22-2009, 06:47 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>look man guards where not always the best tank in game ONLY myth guards where OP and ONLY in one expansion... all the other expansions guards where midiocre boring tanks with agro problems and almost impossible to solo and quest with.. you might "remember" different cos you're thinking of your raid outfited guard.. i rember raid outfitted SK that use to pawn too good luck convencing anyone that was a broken class after grouping/raiding with them. SK is fine where it is, I'm glad that the class has finaly found a combination that worked since everything else soe has tried with the class has failed. still that don't change the fact that guards have about as much longevity abilitys as other plate tanks. tos= all the other plate tanks have something like it or better sphere= all the other plate tanks have something like it or betterblock= all the other plate tanks have something like it or better yes guards have more mitt buffs then crusaders but with all the +base mitt gear those regulated values that the buffs add are almost insignificant, i mean what exactly does 5% mitt amount to? 5k hit = 250 hp? lol you can probly regen for that much. SK where difficult to play for a LONG time and indeed to revive what was almost a dead class something drastic had to be done. i just soe start balancing class instead of over powering some and screwing the others.. it's dumb </blockquote>The problem is that others call for nerfs to a class that had what was coming to it. Guess what I am one good SK, and I will get out parsed by good rogues and the other good DPS classes. I am one good SK and I have MT'd every mob in TSO up until Ykesha so far plus an Avatar....and yet I can see our Guard step in and just do it without taking as much damage. That is what they do. He knows and I know it. But on fights like FG, or when a mob needs to be locked down, or if it is OT'ing without as much hate help....I can do it better. That is what I do, he knows it and I know it.PLATE TANK BALANCE IS CLOSER THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN. I know you don't like to hear it but it is true. Does that mean everything is perfect? No. It does mean that SOE is finally starting to look like he is getting it right. As a non-raid Guard you want DA back...ok, fine with me. Raid tanks with buffs are over cap on DA anyway. Group tanks....well if it makes you guys feel more "balanced" I guess SOE should look at it. However, instead I think adding more "hate" on abilities for Guards would be a better way to go and would make you happier in the end, since come T9 capping DA for everybody is going to be a cake walk.But the trying to argue that offensive tanks have just as much survivability as defensive tanks does not work. It is completely false, and I recommend campaigning with a different slogan.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-22-2009, 07:23 PM

RafaelSmith

06-22-2009, 09:35 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The problem is that others call for nerfs to a class that had what was coming to it. Guess what I am one good SK, and I will get out parsed by good rogues and the other good DPS classes. I am one good SK and I have MT'd every mob in TSO up until Ykesha so far plus an Avatar....and yet I can see our Guard step in and just do it without taking as much damage. That is what they do. He knows and I know it. But on fights like FG, or when a mob needs to be locked down, or if it is OT'ing without as much hate help....I can do it better. That is what I do, he knows it and I know it.PLATE TANK BALANCE IS CLOSER THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN. I know you don't like to hear it but it is true. Does that mean everything is perfect? No. It does mean that SOE is finally starting to look like he is getting it right. As a non-raid Guard you want DA back...ok, fine with me. Raid tanks with buffs are over cap on DA anyway. Group tanks....well if it makes you guys feel more "balanced" I guess SOE should look at it. However, instead I think adding more "hate" on abilities for Guards would be a better way to go and would make you happier in the end, since come T9 capping DA for everybody is going to be a cake walk.But the trying to argue that offensive tanks have just as much survivability as defensive tanks does not work. It is completely false, and I recommend campaigning with a different slogan.</blockquote>What a load of crap. Just listen to yourself. Guards CAN MT raid mobs and take less dmg.....SK can tank those same mobs and take slightly more DMG.....yet can also compete with rogues and others for DPS....is best choice when aggro lockdown is critical.....dominate the group scene with ease and with less gear and without the need of specfic classes to buff their hate.........why cause aggro is easymode for you.......too easy. Hell most of you have to work hard not to draw aggro where the rest of us have to work hard to keep it. Guess what aggro was always easier for you....nothing wrong with that....thats what a DPS tank should be able to do.......but what is wrong is you now get that plus 99% of the things the defensive tanks get. We got nothing in return.......in fact of all things we had our DPS cut. The icing on the cake was content tailored for you....you can go on and on about how the named in TSO are single target.....mattera not considering getting those named with your typical Guard is a lesson in frustration. Sure a Guard who's guild has stuck with him......geared him up specifically and augmented him with the best of the best in terms of buff classes probably does ok....but thats not the measure by which things should be judged. Would only be fair if SK also had those requirements....but it doesn'tTake a averaged geared SK -vs- averaged geared Guard......no comparison........Guard can be the best player in the world and still gets owned in every way possible.Given the current games content the SK is OP.....only people that do not believe that are selfish SKs and those that like to be able to group with a class that is aggro lock + meatshield + high DPS (with shield and sword) all in one....so they can go all out without any worries and get thru instances in record time.How on earth can things be balanced when one class is better at EVERYTHING related to tanking except one thing...taking slightly more DMG...and then only on a few select encounters?. Something that is easily overcome with gear and healers.Maybe Guards did dominate everything in the past...i wouldn't know..i never experienced that...then again I never experienced SKs being as [Removed for Content] as you claim they were. I do not want any one class to be the end all of tanks ...which as much as I hate saying it.....is what SK is now. Maybe SOE will buff everyone else to match.....i seriously doubt it.

Davngr1

06-22-2009, 11:41 PM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>look man guards where not always the best tank in game ONLY myth guards where OP and ONLY in one expansion... all the other expansions guards where midiocre boring tanks with agro problems and almost impossible to solo and quest with.. you might "remember" different cos you're thinking of your raid outfited guard.. i rember raid outfitted SK that use to pawn too good luck convencing anyone that was a broken class after grouping/raiding with them.</blockquote>Ummm... ok you lost me here... Guards were the most highly prefered tank of choice in "all the other expansions" and were not "boring with agro problems" (SK had that claim with agro problems btw) I wouldnt say impossible to solo quest either tho it was harder I give you that... Any Raid equiped character is gonna out do any casual played character and thats a given fact, so thats a moot point "risk vs reward" (TM) Perhaps the SK is fine where it is now... and its the other classes that need to be brought up??? Or are we??? Only SOE knows.. and I stopped trying to read their minds cuz it just made my head hurt</blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>look man guards where not always the best tank in game ONLY myth guards where OP and ONLY in one expansion... all the other expansions guards where midiocre boring tanks with agro problems and almost impossible to solo and quest with.. you might "remember" different cos you're thinking of your raid outfited guard.. i rember raid outfitted SK that use to pawn too good luck convencing anyone that was a broken class after grouping/raiding with them. SK is fine where it is, I'm glad that the class has finaly found a combination that worked since everything else soe has tried with the class has failed. still that don't change the fact that guards have about as much longevity abilitys as other plate tanks. tos= all the other plate tanks have something like it or better sphere= all the other plate tanks have something like it or betterblock= all the other plate tanks have something like it or better yes guards have more mitt buffs then crusaders but with all the +base mitt gear those regulated values that the buffs add are almost insignificant, i mean what exactly does 5% mitt amount to? 5k hit = 250 hp? lol you can probly regen for that much. SK where difficult to play for a LONG time and indeed to revive what was almost a dead class something drastic had to be done. i just soe start balancing class instead of over powering some and screwing the others.. it's dumb </blockquote>The problem is that others call for nerfs to a class that had what was coming to it. Guess what I am one good SK, and I will get out parsed by good rogues and the other good DPS classes. I am one good SK and I have MT'd every mob in TSO up until Ykesha so far plus an Avatar....and yet I can see our Guard step in and just do it without taking as much damage. That is what they do. He knows and I know it. But on fights like FG, or when a mob needs to be locked down, or if it is OT'ing without as much hate help....I can do it better. That is what I do, he knows it and I know it.PLATE TANK BALANCE IS CLOSER THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN. I know you don't like to hear it but it is true. Does that mean everything is perfect? No. It does mean that SOE is finally starting to look like he is getting it right. As a non-raid Guard you want DA back...ok, fine with me. Raid tanks with buffs are over cap on DA anyway. Group tanks....well if it makes you guys feel more "balanced" I guess SOE should look at it. However, instead I think adding more "hate" on abilities for Guards would be a better way to go and would make you happier in the end, since come T9 capping DA for everybody is going to be a cake walk.But the trying to argue that offensive tanks have just as much survivability as defensive tanks does not work. It is completely false, and I recommend campaigning with a different slogan.</blockquote> guys.. seriously i play an SK and im glad soe got it right at last. i will agree with you that raid guards have more longevity then offensive tanks but that's cos of the T4 class gear. if you look at the abilitys offensive tanks have just as many "oh crap" stuff as guard. all guard has is a few contested and regulated skills over the other tanks and one of the them is a raid wide buff. i been playing a guard since DoF man and i got laughed at when i rolled him, the same way i got laughed at when i rolled my SK.

LygerT

06-23-2009, 04:55 AM

if i thought SoE was going to bump other tanks up i wouldn't be here arguing this, but then again there really is no point anyways.

Bruener

06-23-2009, 10:47 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The problem is that others call for nerfs to a class that had what was coming to it. Guess what I am one good SK, and I will get out parsed by good rogues and the other good DPS classes. I am one good SK and I have MT'd every mob in TSO up until Ykesha so far plus an Avatar....and yet I can see our Guard step in and just do it without taking as much damage. That is what they do. He knows and I know it. But on fights like FG, or when a mob needs to be locked down, or if it is OT'ing without as much hate help....I can do it better. That is what I do, he knows it and I know it.PLATE TANK BALANCE IS CLOSER THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN. I know you don't like to hear it but it is true. Does that mean everything is perfect? No. It does mean that SOE is finally starting to look like he is getting it right. As a non-raid Guard you want DA back...ok, fine with me. Raid tanks with buffs are over cap on DA anyway. Group tanks....well if it makes you guys feel more "balanced" I guess SOE should look at it. However, instead I think adding more "hate" on abilities for Guards would be a better way to go and would make you happier in the end, since come T9 capping DA for everybody is going to be a cake walk.But the trying to argue that offensive tanks have just as much survivability as defensive tanks does not work. It is completely false, and I recommend campaigning with a different slogan.</blockquote>What a load of crap. Just listen to yourself. Guards CAN MT raid mobs and take less dmg.....SK can tank those same mobs and take slightly more DMG.....yet can also compete with rogues and others for DPS....is best choice when aggro lockdown is critical.....dominate the group scene with ease and with less gear and without the need of specfic classes to buff their hate.........why cause aggro is easymode for you.......too easy. Hell most of you have to work hard not to draw aggro where the rest of us have to work hard to keep it. Guess what aggro was always easier for you....nothing wrong with that....thats what a DPS tank should be able to do.......but what is wrong is you now get that plus 99% of the things the defensive tanks get. We got nothing in return.......in fact of all things we had our DPS cut. The icing on the cake was content tailored for you....you can go on and on about how the named in TSO are single target.....mattera not considering getting those named with your typical Guard is a lesson in frustration. Sure a Guard who's guild has stuck with him......geared him up specifically and augmented him with the best of the best in terms of buff classes probably does ok....but thats not the measure by which things should be judged. Would only be fair if SK also had those requirements....but it doesn'tTake a averaged geared SK -vs- averaged geared Guard......no comparison........Guard can be the best player in the world and still gets owned in every way possible.Given the current games content the SK is OP.....only people that do not believe that are selfish SKs and those that like to be able to group with a class that is aggro lock + meatshield + high DPS (with shield and sword) all in one....so they can go all out without any worries and get thru instances in record time.How on earth can things be balanced when one class is better at EVERYTHING related to tanking except one thing...taking slightly more DMG...and then only on a few select encounters?. Something that is easily overcome with gear and healers.Maybe Guards did dominate everything in the past...i wouldn't know..i never experienced that...then again I never experienced SKs being as [Removed for Content] as you claim they were. I do not want any one class to be the end all of tanks ...which as much as I hate saying it.....is what SK is now. Maybe SOE will buff everyone else to match.....i seriously doubt it.</blockquote>I guess you and I just live in 2 different worlds. I play where the tank being able to soak up extra damage matters. Guards win, hands down. Heroic might be a different ball park, I really don't know. I don't play group content much because I like to kill the hardest mobs in the game. Guess what, where I play Guards are more than fine and are still the best MT. 90% of the boss mobs in raid content are still ST, a Guards specialty. I honestly could care less about group content since what I see is just about any class can tank the group zones. I have seen rogues, wizards, even bards tank instances.Your reference to hate is a complete joke too. Do you even know what SKs were like before TSO? Worst hate, worst survivability, and 2nd to worst DPS out of plate tanks. AE content was non-existent so there was nothing for SKs to do...something that showed on a lot of rosters. Hate now is much, much better. Is it better than other fighters...yes. Imagine that, the most "hated" class in EQ2 gets the best hate....that is something that should have been right, from launch. In EQ1 SKs couldn't even go into most cities because everybody hated them.DPS. Yes SK DPS is good....right where it should be. Still out parsed by rogues, enchanters, and every other T1 class out there. Oh and this is while actually spec'ing offensive, throwing on offensive gear. SKs cannot DW like Warriors and Brawlers hence the added DPS while wearing a shield. Its a much easier "out" for SOE than fixing 2h weapons...especially since all Mythicals are 1h weapons. Paladin DPS is just as high as SK dps. And Zerk DPS is not very far behind.Survivability. All you guys keep doing is comparing the number of abilities instead of actually reading each ability. The recast and reuse on Guard saves is a lot faster than SK ones. The same goes with snaps. So boss fights, a Guard will use his abilities many more times than a SK will...hence a lot better survivability the longer the fight goes. Imagine that...Guards designed to be the best "boss" tank.So, high end...what I see is a lot of balance between plate tanks. Group-wise idk and i don't care. However, I do care when whiny Guards start calling for nerf SKs when things are actually closer in balance at the higher end than I have ever seen.

Beghauns

06-23-2009, 11:56 AM

The problem I have is if one guy is using a shield and out parsing the guy who’s having to dual wield in offensive to keep aggro for any amount of time the sheild guy is going to have better survival and also better aggro. Perhaps its possible to hold aggro as a guard with a trak shield but hes never been nice to me.

RafaelSmith

06-23-2009, 01:03 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Group-wise idk and i don't care. However, I do care when whiny Guards start calling for nerf SKs when things are actually closer in balance at the higher end than I have ever seen.</blockquote>I guess we are in fact in different worlds because I care about everything the game offers....raids...group....solo.....even tradeskilling although I do not tradeskill.If things being closer in balance at the high end means everything else gets even more out of balance then there is no balance.Things at my level of progression and gear are not close to be being balanced.....if anything they got worse with TSO.So we are both selfish i guess. I could care less how things are in your world and you could care less how things are in my world.

Bruener

06-23-2009, 01:29 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Group-wise idk and i don't care. However, I do care when whiny Guards start calling for nerf SKs when things are actually closer in balance at the higher end than I have ever seen.</blockquote>I guess we are in fact in different worlds because I care about everything the game offers....raids...group....solo.....even tradeskilling although I do not tradeskill.If things being closer in balance at the high end means everything else gets even more out of balance then there is no balance.Things at my level of progression and gear are not close to be being balanced.....if anything they got worse with TSO.So we are both selfish i guess. I could care less how things are in your world and you could care less how things are in my world.</blockquote>Perhaps I phrased that wrong. IN that I don't care, I mean that if things really are out of balance at the heroic level than by all means, adjustments that you think you need at that level should be posted in your class forums. However, if these "adjustments" for heroic level put Guards over the top again at the higher level than I am against them. Honestly, giving you guys 60% DA back would probably help out a lot. At the high end most tanks are capped with DA with gear and buffs. This would make sure that Guards at the heroic level regained the dps they lost...although now they are doing it with a Tower shield, something they could only do with a Mythical before.As to the poster above complaining about Crusaders doing better DPS with a shield compared to Warriors that are DW'ing. The amount of "auto-attack" DPS from a DW'er is greater. That is the easiest form of DPS and agro. The advantage Crusaders are getting is that they take advantage of proc buffs from other players better. PoTM, PoM, Fanatical Devotion, etc. Hey, I am not going to lie...I am happy with the TSO AA SOE added for Crusaders. I was campaining for a 2h AA line myself...and before that I had multiple threads on why Crusaders should be able to DW. However, SOE took the easy road and decided not to worry about 2h weps and my guess is for RP reasons they did not want to let Crusaders DW. But, again auto attack, which is easy-mode DPS/agro....DW'ing > Crusader.

RafaelSmith

06-23-2009, 01:41 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was campaining for a 2h AA line myself...and before that I had multiple threads on why Crusaders should be able to DW. However, SOE took the easy road and decided not to worry about 2h weps and my guess is for RP reasons they did not want to let Crusaders DW. But, again auto attack, which is easy-mode DPS/agro....DW'ing > Crusader.</blockquote> I would love for SOE to breath some life back into using 2handers....for all of us.

LygerT

06-23-2009, 02:49 PM

they could give warriors 100% double attack from the stamina line and it wouldn't be over the top comparatively. raid tanks would still be at cap and heroic tanks could actually hold aggro without a perfect stacked group. Davngr was right in one thing out of all of his nonsensical ranting in that aspect.although i think just putting it back to 60% would be fine, but with how far crusaders have come i still think that wouldn't do it with your easymode aggro and now superior DPS. i'm not going to hold my breath though.

Bruener

06-23-2009, 03:07 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>they could give warriors 100% double attack from the stamina line and it wouldn't be over the top comparatively. raid tanks would still be at cap and heroic tanks could actually hold aggro without a perfect stacked group. Davngr was right in one thing out of all of his nonsensical ranting in that aspect.although i think just putting it back to 60% would be fine, but with how far crusaders have come i still think that wouldn't do it with your easymode aggro and now superior DPS. i'm not going to hold my breath though.</blockquote>You do realize that the whole idea with the fighter revamp was to put agro more in the hands of the fighters instead of using tons of hate transfer and hate buffs right? I mean why in the world would you want to try and ruin the one class that is actually closer to that than the others...jealousy?BTW, Lyger Gibe is hardly an ability to laugh at when it comes to easy-mode agro. Same with the Zerker Mythical converting to hate.The return of 60% DA to the Warriors STA line is definitely fair....it would than be very easy for all Warriors to cap their DA...something I guess they got used to. I am not sure what good it would do to have 100% DA from the line would do...I mean there is a cap and it is pretty easy to reach it.Anyhow, this is a SK discussion forum with a SK discussion thread. One that is brought up because out of jealousy some people want to nerf a class that is working well, something that took years to get. It is not OP'd because DPS still does better DPS, utility still has a lot more utility, and tank wise other tanks still have just as good survivability if not better. Some may need some tweaks, but it is hardly worth calling for a nerf on a class that is working well. If you are so anxious to get a class nerfed go on over to the bard/chanter forums pls.

Landiin

06-23-2009, 03:13 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>But, again auto attack, which is easy-mode DPS/agro....DW'ing > Crusader.</blockquote>LOL you kidding right? Crusader with sword and board DPS as good if not better then warriors DWing and crusaders get to keep the serviceability of sword and board while doing so. So don't even say we are > while DWing thats just a laughable... If you can't then you are just not that good at your class.

LygerT

06-23-2009, 03:31 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>they could give warriors 100% double attack from the stamina line and it wouldn't be over the top comparatively. raid tanks would still be at cap and heroic tanks could actually hold aggro without a perfect stacked group. Davngr was right in one thing out of all of his nonsensical ranting in that aspect.although i think just putting it back to 60% would be fine, but with how far crusaders have come i still think that wouldn't do it with your easymode aggro and now superior DPS. i'm not going to hold my breath though.</blockquote>You do realize that the whole idea with the fighter revamp was to put agro more in the hands of the fighters instead of using tons of hate transfer and hate buffs right? I mean why in the world would you want to try and ruin the one class that is actually closer to that than the others...jealousy?BTW, Lyger Gibe is hardly an ability to laugh at when it comes to easy-mode agro. Same with the Zerker Mythical converting to hate.The return of 60% DA to the Warriors STA line is definitely fair....it would than be very easy for all Warriors to cap their DA...something I guess they got used to. I am not sure what good it would do to have 100% DA from the line would do...I mean there is a cap and it is pretty easy to reach it.Anyhow, this is a SK discussion forum with a SK discussion thread. One that is brought up because out of jealousy some people want to nerf a class that is working well, something that took years to get. It is not OP'd because DPS still does better DPS, utility still has a lot more utility, and tank wise other tanks still have just as good survivability if not better. Some may need some tweaks, but it is hardly worth calling for a nerf on a class that is working well. If you are so anxious to get a class nerfed go on over to the bard/chanter forums pls.</blockquote>when in the last few posts have i mentioned a nerf? get the F over it. in the post you somehow dragged jealousy out of i mentioned a way to help bring warriors up so they don't need a stacked group to maintain hate, something you forgot is not fun for a tank to deal with and that is what lesser geared warriors have now.i wish i could say that even with just giving warriors back the double attack it would make all things equal, at least it would be a start. it isn't easy being dropped into a caster group and be told to hold aggro even with melee skills capped, a troub and nuke happy casters. there is an obvious advantage to death march cast haste even when i am the solo healer in the group, there is an obvious advantage to doing your best DPS with your shield up and from benefitting from both melee and spell buffs, i could go on but you won't ever get it. the discrepency in damage taken is now marginal at best, i know, because i heal every class of tank, even scrubby SKs who mash whatever button is lit at the time and they can still make tanking look easymode.

Bruener

06-23-2009, 04:42 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>they could give warriors 100% double attack from the stamina line and it wouldn't be over the top comparatively. raid tanks would still be at cap and heroic tanks could actually hold aggro without a perfect stacked group. Davngr was right in one thing out of all of his nonsensical ranting in that aspect.although i think just putting it back to 60% would be fine, but with how far crusaders have come i still think that wouldn't do it with your easymode aggro and now superior DPS. i'm not going to hold my breath though.</blockquote>You do realize that the whole idea with the fighter revamp was to put agro more in the hands of the fighters instead of using tons of hate transfer and hate buffs right? I mean why in the world would you want to try and ruin the one class that is actually closer to that than the others...jealousy?BTW, Lyger Gibe is hardly an ability to laugh at when it comes to easy-mode agro. Same with the Zerker Mythical converting to hate.The return of 60% DA to the Warriors STA line is definitely fair....it would than be very easy for all Warriors to cap their DA...something I guess they got used to. I am not sure what good it would do to have 100% DA from the line would do...I mean there is a cap and it is pretty easy to reach it.Anyhow, this is a SK discussion forum with a SK discussion thread. One that is brought up because out of jealousy some people want to nerf a class that is working well, something that took years to get. It is not OP'd because DPS still does better DPS, utility still has a lot more utility, and tank wise other tanks still have just as good survivability if not better. Some may need some tweaks, but it is hardly worth calling for a nerf on a class that is working well. If you are so anxious to get a class nerfed go on over to the bard/chanter forums pls.</blockquote>when in the last few posts have i mentioned a nerf? get the F over it. in the post you somehow dragged jealousy out of i mentioned a way to help bring warriors up so they don't need a stacked group to maintain hate, something you forgot is not fun for a tank to deal with and that is what lesser geared warriors have now.i wish i could say that even with just giving warriors back the double attack it would make all things equal, at least it would be a start. it isn't easy being dropped into a caster group and be told to hold aggro even with melee skills capped, a troub and nuke happy casters. there is an obvious advantage to death march cast haste even when i am the solo healer in the group, there is an obvious advantage to doing your best DPS with your shield up and from benefitting from both melee and spell buffs, i could go on but you won't ever get it. the discrepency in damage taken is now marginal at best, i know, because i heal every class of tank, even scrubby SKs who mash whatever button is lit at the time and they can still make tanking look easymode.</blockquote>Seriously Lyger, how many posts have you been in talking about how great Crusaders have it now and supposedly how crappy Warriors have it. Since the launch of TSO I have seen you post in thread after thread about this very same issue. So, no maybe you didn't actually say "nerf SKs" (although I am almost positive there is a post somewhere from you where it says that) but you have constantly agreed with the ones that do say it...Toran, Gaylong, Zahne (who dropped off the planet when his "plan" of SKs being nerfed never happened), etc. You know, the non-Crusader players....the ones that seem to have Warriors as alts and can't understand why their toon can't lock agro against fully fabled DPS mains. /Boggle.Your tone in most of your posts is the tone of jealousy when you post what Crusaders "have" and what Warriors "don't". Why exactly are you bitter that the one class that needed it the most for the longest time finally got what was coming? I have agreed that tweaks could be made to the other fighter classes to make sure they are more in-line....but that is mostly at the group level. At the raid level, Plate fighters are more balanced than they ever have been. Crusaders were finally given some of the abilities that they were lacking since KoS. Fixed AA lines that are actually useful now. Fixed itemization, that is actually useful now.It completely amazes me that some classes are pointing at SKs now calling them OP'd....its like they don't even know what the meaning of OP'd is. Honestly have you guys checked out Enchanters for the last couple x-pacs? Or how about those Bards that are now T2 DPS with awesome utility? Those are classes that all of you bored Warrior alts should be looking at. You know legitimat OP'd classes that have been sitting that way for a while now. Stay away from my class that is fixed and working as intended.

Davngr1

06-23-2009, 05:18 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> guys keep doing is comparing the number of abilities instead of actually reading each ability. The recast and reuse on Guard saves is a lot faster than SK ones. The same goes with snaps. So boss fights, a Guard will use his abilities many more times than a SK will...hence a lot better survivability the longer the fight goes. Imagine that...Guards designed to be the best "boss" tank.</blockquote>sphere= a 25%(m1) chance at 6 stone skins every two 2 min(with aa) with the chance at taking more dmg from group members. depending on when you use it, it could be a save or could inflict more dmg/instakill.tos= 3 stone skins every 1.23(with aa) min. shild takes dmg thus guard is forced to either dmg his best shild or swap out to a lesser shild and thus probly taking more dmg.block= blocks one hit melee, could be a 10 hp hit could be a 10k hp hit and avoids AE id not direct, clearly if tank has agro the AE avoid is rubish. deffensive minded= 20% chance to doge inc attacks for 20 seconds every 2:41 secs divine aura= absorbs unlimited dmg for 10 seconds that is under 50% of mitigated dmg every 4:30 min(with aa). meaning a 15k hit with 50% mitigation is 7.5k thus will be absorbed by an sk with 16k hp(average buffed hp)hatefull resprite= absorbs any attack over 25%(again mitigated dmg) of the maximum HP and heals the cater. every 1:50min(with aa)shadow night furor= 100% riposte for 15 seconds every 3:40 secs (with aa) since we are talking about raid here you can add the mythical effect and you find both classes have the same amount of defensive abilitys..having the same amount of "oh crap" abilitys is fine but where the problem ensues is that guards don't have anywhere close to the dps abilitys, not even some that suck, sure defesive minded has some recast and casting speed but guards casting speed is all ready almost nothing and recast lets you cast 4 maybe 5 more ca's? cos if you spam ca's and miss autoattack a guard will actualy loose dmg/aggression generation. so it comes full circle, why take a tank that takes a lil less dmg when you can take a tank that can take the hits just as well and can at the very least double the dmg? that is why giving offensive tanks as many longevity tools as guards screwd the class. you can't give away the classes defining abilitys to the rest of the classes and not give something in return.

Davngr1

06-23-2009, 05:37 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>my class that is fixed and working as intended.</blockquote> i agree with this statement ^^^^^^ it's this statement that i don't agree with:<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>PLATE TANK BALANCE IS CLOSER THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN.</blockquote> yes SK is doing good and that's great but that does not mean there is balance.

Bruener

06-23-2009, 05:39 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> guys keep doing is comparing the number of abilities instead of actually reading each ability. The recast and reuse on Guard saves is a lot faster than SK ones. The same goes with snaps. So boss fights, a Guard will use his abilities many more times than a SK will...hence a lot better survivability the longer the fight goes. Imagine that...Guards designed to be the best "boss" tank.</blockquote>sphere= a 25%(m1) chance at 6 stone skins every two 2 min(with aa) with the chance at taking more dmg from group members. depending on when you use it, it could be a save or could inflict more dmg/instakill.tos= 3 stone skins every 1.23(with aa) min. shild takes dmg thus guard is forced to either dmg his best shild or swap out to a lesser shild and thus probly taking more dmg.block= blocks one hit melee, could be a 10 hp hit could be a 10k hp hit and avoids AE id not direct, clearly if tank has agro the AE avoid is rubish. deffensive minded= 20% chance to doge inc attacks for 20 seconds every 2:41 secs divine aura= absorbs unlimited dmg for 10 seconds that is under 50% of mitigated dmg every 4:30 min(with aa). meaning a 15k hit with 50% mitigation is 7.5k thus will be absorbed by an sk with 16k hp(average buffed hp)hatefull resprite= absorbs any attack over 25%(again mitigated dmg) of the maximum HP and heals the cater. every 1:50min(with aa)shadow night furor= 100% riposte for 15 seconds every 3:40 secs (with aa) since we are talking about raid here you can add the mythical effect and you find both classes have the same amount of defensive abilitys..having the same amount of "oh crap" abilitys is fine but where the problem ensues is that guards don't have anywhere close to the dps abilitys, not even some that suck, sure defesive minded has some recast and casting speed but guards casting speed is all ready almost nothing and recast lets you cast 4 maybe 5 more ca's? cos if you spam ca's and miss autoattack a guard will actualy loose dmg/aggression generation. so it comes full circle, why take a tank that takes a lil less dmg when you can take a tank that can take the hits just as well and can at the very least double the dmg? that is why giving offensive tanks as many longevity tools as guards screwd the class. you can't give away the classes defining abilitys to the rest of the classes and not give something in return. </blockquote>The point is look at how much faster the Guard abilities are up compared to the SK abilities. This is the major difference in why Guards still are the best MT out there. Fights last longer, mobs hit way harder (hence DA for Crusaders is often not even spec'd for). So, a Guard has more abilities up more often to take care of the spikes that healers miss. That is what survivability is all about. Guards get to ToS almost 3 times in the time it takes SKs to have the ability to use Furor again. That is 9 key blocks, and damage on the shield...easy macro tower shields like they always have done.So, go even further with this and post Reinforcement compared to Sacrament. Sacrament being a great AE snap ability while Reinforcement being a great ST snap ability. The difference being the recast on Reinforcement is significantly shorter Sac.SOE had to give away the longevity tools that Guards had. They had a complete monopoly on the tanking game because of them, and the gap between Guards and the other tanks was getting way too large. It was getting to the point in RoK that Guards were miles ahead of the other plate tanks. I mean now that I actually have some tools like that as a SK it is so easy to see why Guards completely owned the raid scene for the past few x-pacs. I mean they have had Reinforcement and ToS for a long time....and it really out-shined any other class.

RafaelSmith

06-23-2009, 05:49 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>my class that is fixed and working as intended.</blockquote> i agree with this statement ^^^^^^it's this statement that i don't agree with:<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>PLATE TANK BALANCE IS CLOSER THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN.</blockquote>yes SK is doing good and that's great but that does not mean there is balance.</blockquote>Bruener did clarify that he was speaking only from the end-game perspective......while I am not at that level of play.....I do raid from time to time and with an SK.....So I agree with him that from a raid perspective yes the plates are closer than before. The decision for a raid leader as to who should be MT is alot harder now than in the past....thats fine and how I think it should be. Our SK is our MT because he is better geared and a better player that is fortunate to have a strong class to make use of. Where things are really borked and have gotten worse is elsewhere.....groups and soloing. While it would be great for us to think of grouping and raiding as seperate unrelated things they are not. By bringing SKs up to par for raiding IMO they made them OP for everything else when compared to the rest of the fighters....the net result is a single class that is dominating the others for the largest percentage of the games content.How to fix it.......how knows. I get the feeling that some adjustments will have to be made....some positive and some negative.

Davngr1

06-23-2009, 05:56 PM

yes RoK myth guard was indeed the best raid tank but it was not because of "oh crap" abilitys it was because 100% DA DW with an extra 8% uncontested avoidance and 80%+ uncontested avoidance with a tower. i agree with the crits and the offensive skills that mobs have in TSO other tanks needed some extra "oh crap" buttons but guard should have recived something as well. that myth was the only reason that guards pulled ahead, nothing else. in kos and eof thre where end game raiding guilds that use to roll with non-guard main tanks and they killed contensted and everything else in game. in DoF guards blew before that who cares, troub was the best tank in T5 lol.

Davngr1

06-23-2009, 06:05 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>my class that is fixed and working as intended.</blockquote>i agree with this statement ^^^^^^it's this statement that i don't agree with:<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>PLATE TANK BALANCE IS CLOSER THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN.</blockquote>yes SK is doing good and that's great but that does not mean there is balance.</blockquote>Bruener did clarify that he was speaking only from the end-game perspective......while I am not at that level of play.....I do raid from time to time and with an SK.....So I agree with him that from a raid perspective yes the plates are closer than before. The decision for a raid leader as to who should be MT is alot harder now than in the past....thats fine and how I think it should be. Our SK is our MT because he is better geared and a better player that is fortunate to have a strong class to make use of. Where things are really borked and have gotten worse is elsewhere.....groups and soloing. While it would be great for us to think of grouping and raiding as seperate unrelated things they are not. By bringing SKs up to par for raiding IMO they made them OP for everything else when compared to the rest of the fighters....the net result is a single class that is dominating the others for the largest percentage of the games content.How to fix it.......how knows. I get the feeling that some adjustments will have to be made....some positive and some negative.</blockquote>if you ask me the SK "fix" all ready happend.. all that crazy dmg SK was doing was do to the proc crits and that has been delt with. right now sk needs to stay where it is an offensive tank with good dmg, zerk needs a dmg bump, guard needs a hate bump and maybe small longevity boost and pally needs a small longevity boost. of course that's just my opinion and it leaves out brawlers and TBH i just want more dmg for my brawler but others want other things so i'm staying out of that one.

Beghauns

06-23-2009, 06:26 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>my class that is fixed and working as intended.</blockquote>i agree with this statement ^^^^^^it's this statement that i don't agree with:<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>PLATE TANK BALANCE IS CLOSER THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN.</blockquote>yes SK is doing good and that's great but that does not mean there is balance.</blockquote>Bruener did clarify that he was speaking only from the end-game perspective......while I am not at that level of play.....I do raid from time to time and with an SK.....So I agree with him that from a raid perspective yes the plates are closer than before. The decision for a raid leader as to who should be MT is alot harder now than in the past....thats fine and how I think it should be. Our SK is our MT because he is better geared and a better player that is fortunate to have a strong class to make use of. Where things are really borked and have gotten worse is elsewhere.....groups and soloing. While it would be great for us to think of grouping and raiding as seperate unrelated things they are not. By bringing SKs up to par for raiding IMO they made them OP for everything else when compared to the rest of the fighters....the net result is a single class that is dominating the others for the largest percentage of the games content.How to fix it.......how knows. I get the feeling that some adjustments will have to be made....some positive and some negative.</blockquote>if you ask me the SK "fix" all ready happend.. all that crazy dmg SK was doing was do to the proc crits and that has been delt with. right now sk needs to stay where it is an offensive tank with good dmg, zerk needs a dmg bump, guard needs a hate bump and maybe small longevity boost and pally needs a small longevity boost. of course that's just my opinion and it leaves out brawlers and TBH i just want more dmg for my brawler but others want other things so i'm staying out of that one. </blockquote>I like that idea raw hate or w/e just as long as you can sword and board and not defeat the purpose, hard to block hits with a shield when the mobs eating the swashy.

LygerT

06-24-2009, 04:26 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>they could give warriors 100% double attack from the stamina line and it wouldn't be over the top comparatively. raid tanks would still be at cap and heroic tanks could actually hold aggro without a perfect stacked group. Davngr was right in one thing out of all of his nonsensical ranting in that aspect.although i think just putting it back to 60% would be fine, but with how far crusaders have come i still think that wouldn't do it with your easymode aggro and now superior DPS. i'm not going to hold my breath though.</blockquote>You do realize that the whole idea with the fighter revamp was to put agro more in the hands of the fighters instead of using tons of hate transfer and hate buffs right? I mean why in the world would you want to try and ruin the one class that is actually closer to that than the others...jealousy?BTW, Lyger Gibe is hardly an ability to laugh at when it comes to easy-mode agro. Same with the Zerker Mythical converting to hate.The return of 60% DA to the Warriors STA line is definitely fair....it would than be very easy for all Warriors to cap their DA...something I guess they got used to. I am not sure what good it would do to have 100% DA from the line would do...I mean there is a cap and it is pretty easy to reach it.Anyhow, this is a SK discussion forum with a SK discussion thread. One that is brought up because out of jealousy some people want to nerf a class that is working well, something that took years to get. It is not OP'd because DPS still does better DPS, utility still has a lot more utility, and tank wise other tanks still have just as good survivability if not better. Some may need some tweaks, but it is hardly worth calling for a nerf on a class that is working well. If you are so anxious to get a class nerfed go on over to the bard/chanter forums pls.</blockquote>when in the last few posts have i mentioned a nerf? get the F over it. in the post you somehow dragged jealousy out of i mentioned a way to help bring warriors up so they don't need a stacked group to maintain hate, something you forgot is not fun for a tank to deal with and that is what lesser geared warriors have now.i wish i could say that even with just giving warriors back the double attack it would make all things equal, at least it would be a start. it isn't easy being dropped into a caster group and be told to hold aggro even with melee skills capped, a troub and nuke happy casters. there is an obvious advantage to death march cast haste even when i am the solo healer in the group, there is an obvious advantage to doing your best DPS with your shield up and from benefitting from both melee and spell buffs, i could go on but you won't ever get it. the discrepency in damage taken is now marginal at best, i know, because i heal every class of tank, even scrubby SKs who mash whatever button is lit at the time and they can still make tanking look easymode.</blockquote>Seriously Lyger, how many posts have you been in talking about how great Crusaders have it now and supposedly how crappy Warriors have it. Since the launch of TSO I have seen you post in thread after thread about this very same issue. So, no maybe you didn't actually say "nerf SKs" (although I am almost positive there is a post somewhere from you where it says that) but you have constantly agreed with the ones that do say it...Toran, Gaylong, Zahne (who dropped off the planet when his "plan" of SKs being nerfed never happened), etc. You know, the non-Crusader players....the ones that seem to have Warriors as alts and can't understand why their toon can't lock agro against fully fabled DPS mains. /Boggle.Your tone in most of your posts is the tone of jealousy when you post what Crusaders "have" and what Warriors "don't". Why exactly are you bitter that the one class that needed it the most for the longest time finally got what was coming? I have agreed that tweaks could be made to the other fighter classes to make sure they are more in-line....but that is mostly at the group level. At the raid level, Plate fighters are more balanced than they ever have been. Crusaders were finally given some of the abilities that they were lacking since KoS. Fixed AA lines that are actually useful now. Fixed itemization, that is actually useful now.It completely amazes me that some classes are pointing at SKs now calling them OP'd....its like they don't even know what the meaning of OP'd is. Honestly have you guys checked out Enchanters for the last couple x-pacs? Or how about those Bards that are now T2 DPS with awesome utility? Those are classes that all of you bored Warrior alts should be looking at. You know legitimat OP'd classes that have been sitting that way for a while now. Stay away from my class that is fixed and working as intended.</blockquote>the only real problem i have is that the majority of you won't acknowledge that your class is as versatile as it is now. of course i know what that would mean if you do even though it would at least make me feel a little better at not pestering you anymore.no tank should be as easy to play as guards were in RoK or now crusaders. i pick on SKs the most because they have the most benefit of any tank in TSO. i'm sure things will change to another class next expansion but the truth is, guards had to put up with the abuse in RoK and now you have to in TSO, or you have the choice to ignore it and let it unfold as it will.

Davngr1

06-24-2009, 09:53 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>no tank should be as easy to play as MYTHICAL RAID guards were in RoK or now crusaders. i pick on SKs the most because they have the most benefit of any tank in TSO. i'm sure things will change to another class next expansion but the truth is, guards had to put up with the abuse in RoK and now you have to in TSO, or you have the choice to ignore it and let it unfold as it will.</blockquote>FIXED!

LygerT

06-24-2009, 11:42 AM

shut upRoK was mainly single target heroic zones, guards still had 60% double attack and all of their other snap aggros that other tanks didn't have, DPS classes without gobs of spell crit and procs and situationally superior hate regardless if they were wearing raid fabled or just hit level 80 and were getting geared up.guards had NO issue in RoK so stop with the BS or i will turn on you.

Davngr1

06-24-2009, 01:04 PM

<h1>i worked for my agro in RoK man.. sure it was mostly single targets so it was a good expansion for guard all around, but you can't say guards with out myth where over powerd. stop threating me lyger! im gonna call my mommy ! =P</h1>

BMonkeeus

06-24-2009, 05:22 PM

AHAHAHAHA! LoLz!!!

Rahatmattata

07-03-2009, 01:04 AM

Nerf shadowknights.LOL @ skill. If you want to brag about skill try tanking as a monk. And I don't mean Deep Forge.

Uggli

07-03-2009, 10:52 AM

The skill involved when tanking as a monk is all the healers skill keeping you alive. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Phelon_Skellhound

07-03-2009, 03:03 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerf shadowknights.LOL @ skill. If you want to brag about skill try tanking as a monk. And I don't mean Deep Forge.</blockquote>I dont mind trolls that know know what they are talking about... but some just really are terrible about trolling or else they would be in the know and just let this forum post die... Hell make a new one to discuss the following because its rumor no more across the board.. enjoyFIGHTERS:<ul><li>Balancing will come to focus more on hate gain and defense. Improvements are to be made to taunts and defensive stances. The focus is on tanking instead of DPS.</li><li>Block and deflection will be consolidated.</li><li>Brawlers will receive an advantage to avoidance buffs.</li><li>Brawler lack of AoE hate gain will be looked at.</li><li>Consolidate some common buff lines like fighter and scout stances with self buffs.</li></ul>

Phelon_Skellhound

07-03-2009, 03:14 PM

Better yet... discuss it here in the general fighters forum<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=454451">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=454451</a>Otherwise do as you will since the intent of this post by the OP no longer serves its purpose

goryf

09-14-2009, 01:01 PM

I keep reading that most ppl are complaining that while warrior class toons are lacking in what we SKs have finally got the major lacking ability for tanks ( a.e. hate control [something a SK is supossed to be the best of if I remember eq1 correctly]) that ppl want our survivability up'ed so that we are.... what? invincable?? I have found that with the reaver aa line adding a lifetap to nearly all casted attacks, in all but epic incounters this makes up for the fact that I get hit more often then other tanks.Tap Arteries has always been my life saver. At mastered lvl and with the right aa points it has a decent recast and enough of an impact on my life to where I have been known to gain on average half if not full health. The more mobs nearby the better too. Seems most healers and OT's don't know of this ability so they try to pull agro in desperation only to find that not only am I NOT going to die but that it is a high damaging AoE as well which helps in keeping agro.True though I don't particapate in raiding ( though I am going to have to to get my myth) I am witness to serveral SK's that know of this tactic and the lack of it's effect in raids where hardly a dent is made. That is where a well developed raid with knowledgable players helps. Although I have witnessed it I will admite I have no first hand xp in the raiding problems that seem to be apparent with the SK, I have more than enough in heroic instances to voice this. Let those meat shields have thier ability which sets them apart from us SK's. They are meant to be more bronze than brains anyway ( not saying that there is a lack of intel with warrior types or the players ).The reason, as I see it, that SK's have not only CA but spells as well is because as a class we must be smart about how we work. Know your class and you'll be able to be up there with the best of any class. Thus the reason for 24 different classes.Now as a SK I will say that grping with a gaurd as mt is my favorite way to go into the fire. Let him take the brunt of the one hitter quiters while I play the role of crowd control and support. When I play there never has been a problem with me holding back on the hate generation so as to allow the Gaurd to do his job. If there is a change though to be made I will say that that it would be nice to see a Guard with the ability to pull a mob of thier choice ( the toughest one beating my butt preferably) with a 75%-100% chance of success. This will allow them to do thier job and me to do mine.With the Reaver line and my AoE lifetap the healer can concentrate on the gaurd while I tend to heal myself enough to stay alive ( that is if the gaurd can take the hits for the mob dealing the most dps). I actually xplained a tactic to a RL friend, that also plays, that I use as an OT that really helps the grp.Donation of Armament and Grave Blessing are a last minute utility that helps keep the MT alive long enough for the healers spells to catch up with the damage. True the two spells combined seem to only effect the MT for 5 seconds, i have found that this is long enough for the healer to do his job. When I see the health of someone starting to drain faster than normal when I know that the healer is on a role, thats when I cast it knowing that it will be enough.These are just a few of my tactics as a none raiding SK and may differ from others. If you have an opinion on my choices here then please let me know as I am always up for improving my game.This playstyle has made me desire no changes to the SK because it is nice to have a challenging lack of something for me to work around. If they make it to where SK's are good at everything then it makes the game too easy and uninteresting. If you want to have the survivability of Gaurds then play a Gaurd. SK's I think are at a comfortable place for me. good here and not so good there. That is balance.What I would like to see is a warrior that can pull mobs from me with ease and speed when needed. A fast recast timer would be nice to so that it would be available for the next bad @$$ mob woopin on me as soon as the last one dies.There is my two cents. Survivablilty for the SK???? There are different ways around that and/or get a good grp with good players. This isn't "Let's complain about our misfortunes so they either nerf them or upgrade us till we are all walking gods in the game.". It's Everquest II. I play eq2 instead of WoW ( like alot of ppl that I know) because I always thought that eq2 was more mature players with a bit of skill and understanding. I didn't know that like WoW it is filled with the liitle babies who cry because they can't reach the cookies on top of the counter. CHALLENGE me and you'll keep my interest. Make it too easy then I'll play Guild Wars. Grow up and bite the bullet. RL is hard and this game is closer to RL the harder it gets. To get the ability to do something or go somewhere should be earned by knowledge and skill. Like big ppl who don't need to hold a Dev's hand. The more work it takes you to reach whatever gaol the more involved in the game you must become to achieve it.The only copmplaint that I have ever had with my SK is the power level draining to fast. They fixed that ( though now I think that they over did it a bit and makes it to where things are so easy I no lolnger have to watch what I cast with managing power in mind [another challenge that made the game interesting]) so I really have nothing to say about what they NEED to fix on the SK. A few tweeks here and there are alway going to be nice to help define the class but that is what changes should be about. Not to make things easier in all area's but to help you stand out from other classes.

Enoe

09-15-2009, 03:31 PM

@ ProjectSmadleyi can see few flaws in ur gameplay and understanding sk. Sk is powerfull tank who doesnt need guardian to tank harder mobs.<div>Raiding sks have same avoidance and mitigation as guardians. Above it u have Furor and optional Divine Aura as emergency tools.</div> <div>Properly spect only really good zerk can parse like sk on AE encounters (considering fighters ofc). More dps=more hps in sk case so 300-500 or more hps can be a standard.</div><div></div><div>All heroic zones can be easly tanked by SK with 1 healer and few zones can be done w/o any healer, 1 zone at least can be soloed (OOB).</div><div></div><div>SK can be very succesfull MT on raids as well as a OT . There is not many things other tanks can do better then SK.</div><div></div><div>And last thing warriors, brawlers will use just some grp/solo/raid buffs from others. SK can use all goodies from TC to IA from every class. Try to run grp made with: sk, 2 enchanters and 2 bards with 1 healer - and see how fast mobs die.</div><div></div><div></div><div>Dont look at my sig - my main was a guardian but since november last year it is SK and tbh i love class how strong it is now. </div><div></div><div></div><div></div>

Longfangz

09-20-2009, 01:51 PM

For the record, I only have one fighter of the 6 I don't play. And yes, my main is an SK. Honestly there is no need to nerf anyone. A couple fighters need some tools added (warriors, specifially guards, could use some more aggro tools, and brawlers need a ton of help in the AE aggro dept).And yes, Lyger is and has always been a board troll who has the hots for SK's, so disregard everything he says. I have a zerk as well and he keeps aggro like a champ (once zerks get their myth of course). My guess there's a skill issue here.The masses are suddenly crying because for years, crusaders had nothing to boost their overall dps WHILE increasing their tanking abilities. Suddenly in TSO there was tank gear with +melee and +spell crit/DA/etc and people cried because crusaders went from the absolute bottom of the dps chart to near the top. Previously crusaders would have to wear caster jewelry and cloth gear to get any spell bonuses, which meant they were pretty much dead if they got aggro.Even now it's still easier to outfit a pure melee class (zerk for example) and max out melee crit/DA/+CA damage than it is to come anywhere near max for both melee and spell and still wear tank gear. Honestly the only think crusaders have as a pure bonus to tanking is aggro on incoming, as with my zerk I plunk an arrow and watch it possibly crit for 1200-1500 (if I'm really really lucky) whereas my SK can throw 2-3 nukes on the mob before it gets to the group, ensuring it sticks to me rather than plunking an arrow, watching it miss, and watching the mob come screaming at the healer who just pre-healed.Really Lyger, if you have such issues with your zerk that I somehow don't have on my lesser geared zerk, I think it's probably a skill issue, not class. I can tank for any group/raid just as easily on both.

AndrewSquared

09-21-2009, 10:50 AM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, keep this post bumped near the top then. We'll revisit your comment late spring early summer this year.</blockquote>This made me laugh. I just came back to the game, found out that SKs are in a great place (opposed to their 4 years of being a chamber pot for SOE), and was reading through this thread. I realized how old the post was when I came across this. AFAIK SKs are still doing very well in game, and it's almost fall.

Phelon_Skellhound

09-22-2009, 02:36 AM

And here I thought i was able to kill this thread back in july you necro posters :cPNo use in replying to posts done months ago lol

AndrewSquared

09-22-2009, 12:11 PM

More than anything, I think I was surprised that a dead post was not only on the front page of the class forums, but in the first 20 posts.

Aanadorn68

09-26-2009, 05:26 PM

Hope they keep us as we are, mine was on the shelf collecting dust for a loooong time until he became playable again.

Rahatmattata

09-29-2009, 03:05 PM

<cite>Aanadorn68 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hope they keep us as we are, mine was on the shelf collecting dust for a loooong time until he became playable again.</blockquote>Aerilik is taking another stab at revamping fighters so good luck with that. I can't tell you which fighter will come out on top this time, but I can tell you it won't be balanced and there will be a "best" tank for 90% of the game's content as usual. Maybe bruisers will be ridiculously OP for a year.

RafaelSmith

09-29-2009, 05:42 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aanadorn68 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hope they keep us as we are, mine was on the shelf collecting dust for a loooong time until he became playable again.</blockquote>Aerilik is taking another stab at revamping fighters so good luck with that. I can't tell you which fighter will come out on top this time, but I can tell you it won't be balanced and there will be a "best" tank for 90% of the game's content as usual. Maybe bruisers will be ridiculously OP for a year.</blockquote>Based on what the first "revamp" was and some of the crap that came out of Fan Faire.....i think their intent is to make us all "OP" in the sense that aggro will be easymode for all fighters. At least thats the impression I get considering he thinks its perfectly ok for a crappy geared fighter to be able to tank for a top-end geared group.I think I prefer the current....."lets make fighter X OP this expansion" approach over the stupid "revamp".I vote its Brawler's turn <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Oh wait that too general.......Bruisers then <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Prestissimo

10-02-2009, 11:30 PM

I simply want all tanks to be equally viable in their own respects. Been carrying that flag for 3 years now, but realize and have known from the start that its a worthless waste of time. The amount of time it took for SKs to finally get the attention they needed did merrit them being OP for a little while to give them their cookie, but seriously no one can say that they are not OPed. The typical soe long time ignoring then overkill buffing followed by overly nerfing will see it's cycle through as time has proven always happens, so you have to know that it will come in one form or another especially with the state SKs are in now.I like to believe a balanced state of harmony between tanks can exist and honestly believe that as long as there are 6 tank classes and 4 groups in raids and especially based on the previous attempt at "revamping" tanks... yeah, I don't believe it can happen.

Nero

10-10-2009, 02:03 AM

Perhaps SK would be nerfed at next expansion.It's OK.Instead, I would like the SK's skeletal pet to be viable and be able to be enhanced by AA.

bigbaldpapa

10-15-2009, 11:32 AM

Just rolled my first SK and am unjoying the bum-kickery. I have been told of the impending nerf too. Though I first heard of it wayyyyyyy back around spring time. In before nerf?

Turb

10-16-2009, 09:26 AM

The nerf will come in the L90 expansion. There's no point SOE doing it now.It'll happen via crit modifiers. There will only be 'crit chance' and 'crit modifier' in the expansion, so no melee crit or spell crit or heal crit. That will be the opportunity to put (for example) crusader (and other tank) MC and SC modifiers lower than DPS classes (for the same gear).So enjoy while it lasts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rahatmattata

12-05-2009, 04:12 AM

Bruener

12-05-2009, 11:46 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/news_archive_content.vm?id=3371&section=News&locale=en_US" target="_blank">Nerf inc.</a></blockquote>Yep, its a nerf. But probably a necessary one. Honestly the nerf is hardly going to affect my game play because like I have been explaining to many other fighters on these forums GS is a very situational spell. Most of the time I cannot use it as an OT because yes it means I get everything, including the mob the MT is holding.When the numbers roll out we will see. But a change on a situational ability will mean I still rock. Kind of funny though because Reinforcement is a similar type ability.

AziBam

12-05-2009, 01:27 PM

Lol. Nice of them to phrase it as if it were a bug. Silly.So, I guess warriors are the only ones to get AE positional increase abilities? I hear what you are saying Bruener. In fact, it was too many SKs not paying attention to what it does and using it at the wrong time/place that gained us a lot of anger from the other tanks. If they are going to change it I still think it's appropriate to have a positional boost attached. Perhaps a one time hate position bump of x quantity and then raw hate over time.

Bruener

12-05-2009, 01:29 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol. Nice of them to phrase it as if it were a bug. Silly.So, I guess warriors are the only ones to get AE positional increase abilities? I hear what you are saying Bruener. In fact, it was too many SKs not paying attention to what it does and using it at the wrong time/place that gained us a lot of anger from the other tanks. If they are going to change it I still think it's appropriate to have a positional boost attached. Perhaps a one time hate position bump of x quantity and then raw hate over time.</blockquote>What you are saying about the hate positions is what I have heard in whispers.

AziBam

12-05-2009, 01:37 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol. Nice of them to phrase it as if it were a bug. Silly.So, I guess warriors are the only ones to get AE positional increase abilities? I hear what you are saying Bruener. In fact, it was too many SKs not paying attention to what it does and using it at the wrong time/place that gained us a lot of anger from the other tanks. If they are going to change it I still think it's appropriate to have a positional boost attached. Perhaps a one time hate position bump of x quantity and then raw hate over time.</blockquote>What you are saying about the hate positions is what I have heard in whispers.</blockquote>In that case, I don't think it's an unreasonable change. I guess the devil will be in the details.

Rahatmattata

12-05-2009, 01:37 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kind of funny though because Reinforcement is a similar type ability.</blockquote>It wouldn't surprise me if they nerfed reinforcement tbh.

Bruener

12-05-2009, 01:42 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kind of funny though because Reinforcement is a similar type ability.</blockquote>It wouldn't surprise me if they nerfed reinforcement tbh.</blockquote>Well based on what they have said about why they are nerfing GS and HG than Reinforcement should be on the list. Not saying Guards need a nerf but the whole reason that GS and HG exist is because Reinforcement has been around since DoF and for multiple expansions was a tool that other tanks drooled over. If they want to get rid of multiple hate position increasing abilities than Reinforcement should be changed to something different as well.If they only nerf GS and HG than once again Reinforcement + AE will be better.

AziBam

12-05-2009, 01:45 PM

Bruener

12-05-2009, 01:50 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kind of funny though because Reinforcement is a similar type ability.</blockquote>It wouldn't surprise me if they nerfed reinforcement tbh.</blockquote>I hope not. Not just for guards but for the general premise. Really, all the fighter classes having at least one AE positional ability would be good in my opinion.</blockquote>Well they are getting rid of Crusaders'. What really needs to be done is a slight nerf on how fast the hate positions are increased.Grave Sacrament - change it to increase 1 hate position 10% chance when mob takes damage. Or change it to something based on the SK hitting it. Maybe 50% chance to increase hate position by 3 everytime SK damages the mob.HG - change it to increase 2 hate positions each time Paladin damages mob.

Landiin

12-05-2009, 06:19 PM

Oh cry me a river. They are only making HG and GS not so OP. Now you are not 100% guaranteed to get aggro. It is the same with reinforcement. Before not even that could not keep aggro when HG or GS was running. You guys still have all the blue aoes so quit crying now that u may lose aggro if you don't' suck at ur class..

AziBam

12-05-2009, 07:24 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh cry me a river. They are only making HG and GS not so OP. Now you are not 100% guaranteed to get aggro. It is the same with reinforcement. Before not even that could not keep aggro when HG or GS was running. You guys still have all the blue aoes so quit crying now that u may lose aggro if you don't' suck at ur class..</blockquote>Just in case you missed it.<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kind of funny though because Reinforcement is a similar type ability.</blockquote>It wouldn't surprise me if they nerfed reinforcement tbh.</blockquote>I hope not. Not just for guards but for the general premise. Really, all the fighter classes having at least one AE positional ability would be good in my opinion.</blockquote>

therodge

12-05-2009, 11:25 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh cry me a river. They are only making HG and GS not so OP. Now you are not 100% guaranteed to get aggro. It is the same with reinforcement. Before not even that could not keep aggro when HG or GS was running. You guys still have all the blue aoes so quit crying now that u may lose aggro if you don't' suck at ur class..</blockquote>i say they arnt OP i say this based on the fact as a paladin, i really dont care to see it go maybe it will kill the amends crying (it wont) owell a decent ability thats highly situational wont kill crusaders (both HG and GS dont need to be used 99.8% of the time)

Rahatmattata

12-06-2009, 04:34 AM

It probably won't hurt crusaders much. I mean it will still be threat, just not positions, and there are only a handful of classes in the game that could rip a group of mobs off a crusader.I think the main difference between grave sac and reinforce (i'm not sure how holy ground works) is that GS procs 33%<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> of the time whenever anyone hits a mob. Reinforcement only procs when the guard hits a mob, and guards have 3 PBAoE that will proc reinforcement if they spec down the agi line (all on long recasts), one long casting time encounter AoE, and 40% frontal cone auto attack to 4 mobs. And reinforcement won't be up on every pull, so most of the time the guard has to tab target, which targetting seperate encounters is a challenge in itself thanks to EQ2's awesome targeting system they refuse to fix. Whereas with GS, the SK can more or less pop it, take a quick afk, and hold aggro on everything.But yea, the nerf probably won't even matter.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

12-06-2009, 11:10 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the main difference between grave sac and reinforce (i'm not sure how holy ground works) is that GS procs 33%<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> of the time whenever anyone hits a mob.</blockquote>The spell text reads one way but I believe Atan first reported that it was actually raising the position 100% of the time. This may be the problem the producer is referring to. (Assume the paladin mechanic has a similar issue.) We'll have to wait and see what "a much more modest rank increase" means.

AziBam

12-06-2009, 01:26 PM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote> We'll have to wait and see what "a much more modest rank increase" means.</blockquote>I agree. It's easy to get nervous anytime a change like this is proposed but we really won't know until more info is released.

Bruener

12-06-2009, 01:48 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>It probably won't hurt crusaders much. I mean it will still be threat, just not positions, and there are only a handful of classes in the game that could rip a group of mobs off a crusader.I think the main difference between grave sac and reinforce (i'm not sure how holy ground works) is that GS procs 33%<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> of the time whenever anyone hits a mob. Reinforcement only procs when the guard hits a mob, and guards have 3 PBAoE that will proc reinforcement if they spec down the agi line (all on long recasts), one long casting time encounter AoE, and 40% frontal cone auto attack to 4 mobs. And reinforcement won't be up on every pull, so most of the time the guard has to tab target, which targetting seperate encounters is a challenge in itself thanks to EQ2's awesome targeting system they refuse to fix. Whereas with GS, the SK can more or less pop it, take a quick afk, and hold aggro on everything.But yea, the nerf probably won't even matter.</blockquote>Yes that is what GS does now. But, if SKs lose all positional gains that GS currently has. Yes, they are replacing it with threat....but threat does practically nothing on mem-wiping mobs. This and HG are designed for controlling more than 1 mob at a time that mem-wipes. Take away the positionals and you basically take away any usefullness the spell has. Crusaders don't need to create more hate, they need an AE snap for when they are dropped to the bottom of the hate list.The problem with the nerf, and even some of you guys are admitting it, is GS especially is completely situational and it is on a 3 min recast.HG on the other hand was way less situational because it can be focused much like Reinforcement, however much much more powerful than Reinforcement because it raised 24 hate positions whenever a Paladin hit a mob. Not to mention that HG is on a much shorter recast time.Now Guards will have the only AE snap ability with Reinforcement + AEs. They will be the only fighter that will get to increase multiple hate positions over time in an AE situation. That really don't seem to jive with the fact their intended role is MT while others are OT.And to correct no GS was not increasing 100% each time a mob was hit. The reason it seemed like that is because the more people that are hitting on the mob the faster it increases positions. Put it in a raid situation and you are talking about multiple hate positions very fast on the mobs that are being hit. On STs, or the target that MA is on, that hate will be very fast....while on AE mobs it isn't as fast because less people AE.What should be changed is keeping some type of hate position increase over-time, but not the current state it is in. HG should increase 1 hate position everytime the Paladin hits the mob still. And GS should be reduced to something like 10% of the time the mob is damaged.

Rahatmattata

12-07-2009, 05:45 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now Guards will have the only AE snap ability with Reinforcement + AEs. They will be the only fighter that will get to increase multiple hate positions over time in an AE situation. That really don't seem to jive with the fact their intended role is MT while others are OT.</blockquote>Berserkers get a true PBAoE snap. AoE Rescue + damage in fact. It's called <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Jeering_Onslaught" target="_blank">Jeering Onslaught</a>. And what's up with all fighters getting versions of Tower of Stone and Tsunami?

Costa

12-07-2009, 11:30 AM

Beserkers also have Insolence. This is a is a large aoe damage and taunt plus a chance to proc an encounter taunt when the beserker is hit. When the beserker have their myth this also carries a hate position increase.Jeering Onslaught as a blue aoe is broken as the Beserker has to have a mob targeted and have it within range to use the ability, unlike most if not all other blue aoe's where you can pop them off if you have a target in range or not.

RafaelSmith

12-07-2009, 12:48 PM

<cite></cite><blockquote>We are modifying those abilities to generate raw hate, as well as a much more modest rank increase., so that they are still very viable for tanking, but not an automatic pass to the top of the hate list.</blockquote>This line from the Producers Letter seems to indicate that GS will still have some sorta of positional component?

Rahatmattata

12-07-2009, 01:57 PM

Yea, it will probably be a flat 3 positions or something, with the rest of the spell being threat over time.

Ragemaster

12-08-2009, 03:18 PM

Shadowknights are fine, working as intended. Learn2play and kite them in pvp or get out.And seriously, pve server players compalning about sk? lol!Edit: My warden is more op than my sk could possibly ever be, just look him up on eq2 players, or my profile. Way more kills better kvd ration oh and he can run away so easily. If anything, nerf wardens imo

Rahatmattata

12-08-2009, 05:36 PM

Apparently SOE game devs disagree with you.As far as pvp goes, it's a completely different ruleset and has it's own balance issues. Please teach me how to kite a plate tank that can harm touch your face from 100 feet away. I'd imagine a lot of players would disagree that wardens need to be nerfed. They are pretty lackluster for healing/group survivability (buffs). Most people play skill or strategy based games for pvp, like first person shooters or real time strategy, or even more traditional games like billiards/chess/etc... thus they play on pve servers where pvp imbalances don't affect them. Stat based games suck for pvp where if you pick a warden you win or if you pick a necro you lose. And regardless of all that, SKs are still pretty OP in pvp. That's why you play one, and a warden. You like easymode.

MaCloud1032

12-09-2009, 02:44 AM

I have played both sides of the tank issue. I have a lv 80sk and a lv 80 guard. I started playing my sk the day they opened the pvp server's. On venkor i was a class leader for the shadow knight. RoK was beond bad for us. Was an amazing expansion for my guard. Prior to RoK i personaly feel is when the plate tanks were closest to balance. Each tank could do the job but each one did it just a little diffrent. Be it better or worst. RoK dropped a major tub of crap on anything that could AE. Prior to RoK the only "saves" shadow knights had was DA if speced for it and a larger bleed pool, FD, and the heal attached to there harm touch. Guards had guard sphere, tower of stone, dragoon reflexes if speced, could blow up there heart, and 2 good mit buffs. RoK gave the sk bloodletter. Now we get to TSO. At the start SK's were still inthe same boat as RoK they just gave us more AE mobs. Cool now we can look good on a parse by pumping out our AE DoT's. About mid TSO they boosted out casting speed, changed sacrament from a dumb fire to a point blank unlimited AE rescue/large dmg, changed our myth to be usefull, and gave us furver. None of these items alone would of put us over the top like people claim. But combined they do. I do agree that SK's either need to be tonned down or the other tanks need a boost. My personal feeling is they took a class the demanded skill and patintce to master and dumbed us down. SK's now anyone cant pick up the toon and hold agro. Even people who swore they would never tank find them self playing a shadow knight because you dont feel like your tanking when playing the class anymore. stuff starts hitting the fan pop furver still not going well DA still hard myth clicky. Warlock snapping agro drop sacrament. They have truly dumbed down the class i love its play style was unique. I honestly couldnt tell much diffrence when my guard was a guard or when i had him as a zerker. playing a swash or my assassin is pretty much the same get behind the mob and go to town. My sk on the other hand timing life taps, wondering if iam going to have to FD my warlock buddy cuz hes over nuking, all as dirty jokes are being cracked in vent.I would be happy if they would up the guards AE agro. And even a little dps boost.Zerkers i feel a pretty good. they have decent saves and still dps.Pally's you have amends nuff said lol i do think you could use a slight boost to single target dps though.Sk's do one of 2 thinks drop a bit of our dps or a bit of our hate gain.I expect to see a nerf come our way and i honestly hope it does i hate seeing the massive influx of sk's that make it to lv 80 and are asking if int is good for us... all they know is DA + furver means they dont die for 20 sec

Pecca

01-04-2010, 06:04 AM

i started playing pretty much at launch and i started a SK because i played a necro and SK in EQ 1 and as much as i wanted to really like SK they just sucked, they had zero mitigation and next to zero damage. Finally after about 2 months i quit. couldnt remember my old account info so i had to start a new account and let me tell you, they stil sucked in 2007 came back again and left again and just recently came back and SK now is a totally different class. we can actually survive now, we can actually do damage now. mind you the horse and our "pets" still suck but whatever.If they re nerf SKs, I am not sure I would stick around.

Shorcon

04-30-2010, 06:21 PM

<cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>the reason you also see huge influxes of Sk's are also cause lots of people had retired them cause Sk was until TSO the stephchild of EQ2. Never asked for raids and so on..So they needed a little love.. And yes maybe they got a little to much. On the other hand, it makes up for 4 almost 5 years of not being loved at all..So yes they might be nerfed. I also hope not by to much..</blockquote>This is a SK misdirecting.Sk has been blurred into something it was never meant to be. A tank/healer/dps. They can do all 3 effectively in bg. They can actually take all 3 in parse and even take the 4th damage taken. They recieved dps and heal love over the years. Then the tower shield add and now the mit armor of the warrior, and the multi mob enc agro that no other class in the game can even come close to.I hope they get nerfed. I hope its big. Balance requires it. This isn't a tilt in the scale as many SK's would like you to believe. Its a tipped over scale and alot of tanks have rolled off the table.

Phelon_Skellhound

04-30-2010, 07:50 PM

Holy necro post batman.... oh the irony in the first sentence hehe.... All classes got lovin, and hands down this expansion belongs to the Zerker... possibly the Brawler hehe

asaron

05-19-2010, 08:41 PM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Holy necro post batman.... oh the irony in the first sentence hehe.... All classes got lovin, and hands down this expansion belongs to the Zerker... possibly the Brawler hehe</blockquote>Aye zerkers are insane at 90 atm far more than a sk yet do you see any zerker needs to be nerfed posts ?

Phelon_Skellhound

05-20-2010, 01:18 AM

Not by me... oh and ummmm shhhh.... *whispers* you might start a new trend :cP

Bruener

05-20-2010, 10:34 AM

<cite>asaron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Holy necro post batman.... oh the irony in the first sentence hehe.... All classes got lovin, and hands down this expansion belongs to the Zerker... possibly the Brawler hehe</blockquote>Aye zerkers are insane at 90 atm far more than a sk yet do you see any zerker needs to be nerfed posts ?</blockquote>The problem is that the masses really don't know jack and they are still stuck in TSO. Give them till next xpac to realize the changes that are in this xpac. Meanwhile the smart ones that play the new upgraded classes are keeping their mouths shut or still pointing at SKs as a scape-goat to keep people distracted.Just gotta hope that SOE will keep ignoring the morons.BTW you mention Zerks and Brawlers.....even you guys forget to mention how solid Paladins are right now. Best agro, DPS just as much as SKs, oh and take less damage while healing like a half healer.But, like I said way too many people are just ignorant and can't see the way things are until it is 10 miles past them.

Phelon_Skellhound

05-20-2010, 12:00 PM

there are so many SK's out there that it's all folks see right now

Bruener

05-20-2010, 12:26 PM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>there are so many SK's out there that it's all folks see right now</blockquote>Yep, it just takes a while for things to start showing the trend. I know a lot of people that have started up Paladins or have dusted off their Zerkers. Heck even a couple top Guards are dusting off their Zerks to make the switch back.

Orthureon

05-20-2010, 01:36 PM

Bruener

05-20-2010, 02:25 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>asaron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Holy necro post batman.... oh the irony in the first sentence hehe.... All classes got lovin, and hands down this expansion belongs to the Zerker... possibly the Brawler hehe</blockquote>Aye zerkers are insane at 90 atm far more than a sk yet do you see any zerker needs to be nerfed posts ?</blockquote>Have many people even tried the test server recently? The zerkers heal is now nerfed to have a limited amount of triggers. So zerkers have already been dealt with. Crusaders (not just SKs) will be nerfed I am sure, just hopefully sooner than later.</blockquote>That insane heal is only a small piece of the pie of what makes zerkers awesome, and is still an awesome tool. But I am glad Zerkers are doing well. Because they are they are much more enjoyable to play now, just like Crusaders, and just like Brawlers. You know, the whole reason everybody plays this game...to have fun. Why others would want to see another class become significantly less fun just because they aren't having as much with theirs is just plain dumb.

Diern

07-07-2010, 02:32 AM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>the reason you also see huge influxes of Sk's are also cause lots of people had retired them cause Sk was until TSO the stephchild of EQ2. Never asked for raids and so on..So they needed a little love.. And yes maybe they got a little to much. On the other hand, it makes up for 4 almost 5 years of not being loved at all..So yes they might be nerfed. I also hope not by to much..</blockquote>This is a SK misdirecting.Sk has been blurred into something it was never meant to be. A tank/healer/dps. They can do all 3 effectively in bg. They can actually take all 3 in parse and even take the 4th damage taken. They recieved dps and heal love over the years. Then the tower shield add and now the mit armor of the warrior, and the multi mob enc agro that no other class in the game can even come close to.I hope they get nerfed. I hope its big. Balance requires it. This isn't a tilt in the scale as many SK's would like you to believe. Its a tipped over scale and alot of tanks have rolled off the table.</blockquote>Respectfully, this is a bunch of crap...I have been playing the Sk class since , well forever, even in eq2. I am what you call a dedicated Sk player, it's all I have ever played and it's all I ever will play through the thick and thin, and I can assure you, Sk's had a very very bad time of things for a long time. it was about time they got some Love. Yes, maybe they got a little too much love, and some toning down may be needed. But not to the extent haters of the class want.For your information the SK at release was nothing like the Sk class and what it should be, we have always been the self sufficient tank, and guess that that means? A Tank, self healer (via lifetaps), DPS. A hybrid warrior/necormancer. The sk class as it stands now is more in line with how the class felt in eq1.Yes a nerf is probably needed because things are out of wack, and some fine balancing is needed. But it it goes back to what we had to deal with right up to TSO I will be extremely angry. and likely quit.In reality, I believe sk is only really overpowered when a good player uses them to their current potential, and you won't see many of those. My group mates always are in horror when I am not around and another sk tank steps into my shoes. It's not the easy mode everyone is making it out to be, and just remember the more developers give into nerf crying the sooner your particular class will be targeted and we go back to a situation where all classes are rubbish in PVE.