Troubador, SOE's forgotten class?

[Grimaul]

<p>     I'm a long time player of MMO's specially Everquest and Everquest 2,   I've always had a niche for playing bards that</p><p>is till I realized that on Everquest 2 we get no love what so ever for the developers when it comes to listening to our</p><p>suggestions to making troubadors a much more wanted class for group/heroic content.   I'm not going to make a list of</p><p>spells and abilites need to be changed, as we all know which ones need fixing.  I want to go more in depth into what</p><p>a troubadors role is in a group.  I'm not going to go into what can be done to make some much wanted and</p><p>needed changes to our class, instead I will leave that up to further discussion.</p><p>     Let's talk about the main role of a troubador.  We sing songs to buff our group and ourselves to make us better spell</p><p>flingers.  It is known to every spell caster in the game that spells alone have there faults in this game when it comes to</p><p>timing for maxium dps output, therefore, most groups will consist of more melee friendly classes because of their</p><p>consistent dps output.  Now that we have the roll back on the fighters there dps will still play a significant role in holding</p><p>aggro.</p><p>     A bards secondary role is for utility.   Having beneficial abilities whether they be achievements, recurring songs, or</p><p>combat arts, to help the group in situations that will always be persistent in every single fight.  The kicker is not every</p><p>fight is the same.  Some monsters use spells, some use melee.  We might get and add on the pull or we might get a</p><p>group encounter.  Being able to adapt to our current situations is what utility classes need to make them wanted in</p><p>groups. </p><p>     There are only six available spots for a group and what your group is a majority of depends on whether you will be</p><p>invited to it or not.   Key classes are usually a no brainer, tank, healer, mezzer, dps.  It takes time to address issues with</p><p>class balancing, but not even addressing some of the problems over the coarse of a whole year is just absurd.</p><p>SOE said that they were going to start listening to the community.   Troubadors may have a small voice but there is</p><p>definitely a reason for that and I think some of these issues should be addressed. </p><p>    </p>

[Tanes]

<p>Hello Grim, it's not just Troubadors but a whole range of classes. If you search in the necro forums for example there have been posts peading for help for YEARS. I finally got fed up and quit the game a few weeks ago. I only hop ethey take lessions learned to EQ 3. As they didnt take any from EQ 1.</p>

[Ristan]

<p>I apologize now for perhaps being a troll, not meaning to be but...</p><p>While I agree you make some valid points above, yes there are always things that could make our class better, as there are with every class, Troubadors are not alone in that boat.</p><p>We are Utility and We can be DPS.  I have found that troubadors don't get many groups due to stereotypes and misconceptions more than our actual ability.  People think troubies can't dps, or don't do anything but stand around and buff people, which is not true at all.  In most groups I can parse higher than some "dps" classes, or about the same depending on the class make up of the group.</p><p>We fit a mezer role we do have a mez, and a good troubie can mez at least 3 adds. Yes maybe not as easy as a true enchanter, but there are other things we do that enchanters cant.  We can buff defensive, we can buff melee, and we can buff casters....we really shine at buffing casters, but we do have other buffs too.</p><p>We have deagro.</p><p>In your post you has stated that a utility class needs toi beable to addapt to current situations.  That is why you have an aray of buffs ranging from health regen, to power regen.  Defensive, offensive,resist buffers, and haste, and str/sta.</p><p>......I guess what I am saying is, could we use changes: YES, definately. </p><p>But we also need to break out of the "I'm a buff bot "stereo type that everyone seems to have about us and that starts with us, not with SOE.</p><p><img src="http://kyrainetheranger.tripod.com/starsigone.gif" /></p>

[Grimaul]

<p>     Good points there Starseeker,   but I think everyone knows what a troubadors capabilites are.   Yes we can mez,</p><p>dps, and we have "some" adaptable songs for combat/melee.  The only problem is unlike all the other classes our power</p><p>curve for doing anyone of those things efficiently is diminished by the lables put upon our class, not from the players, but</p><p>from a developer stand point.   Bards in Everquest 1 for example are a combination of what both the classes in</p><p>Everquest 2 are, you have the dirge on the melee dps spectrum and the troubador at the magic.  I have always said</p><p>that most of the classes shouldn't have been split into two seperate ones,  and the bard is a great example of this.  Do</p><p>I think that the classes should be combined back into a single one?  Of coarse I do and I think this would benefit for a lot</p><p>of classes in the game.  Will it happen?  Of coarse not.  This is how the game was developed and we have to deal with</p><p>it.  My point is, with this seperation comes the responsibility of the developers to give defining roles to these particular</p><p>classes and make them excel at it better then any other class can.  Troubadors, and bards in general have got the short</p><p>end of the stick since this games inception.  It's about time we start getting our communities' voice heard now that SOE</p><p>is supposedly listening. </p><p>     I don't want this thread to get into a finger pointing game.  I want it to start addressing some of the real issues and</p><p>become more constructive as to what can make our class better and more accessible as a whole.  This whole thing</p><p>about misconceptions of what our class is solely based on a player view that has been propagating itself since the</p><p>beginning.  There are reasons why classes get stero types.  It's is mainly due to the fact that people who have been</p><p>playing this game for years know the weaknesses of particular classes and address them in negative ways.  Well I'm not</p><p>here to start a pro/con debate.  What we need is a more in depth look at what can make some of the hybrid classes</p><p>that people enjoy playing better.  I know that there are post about what can make our class better but they are out</p><p>dated.   So let's start fresh.   Bring in your ideas.  Give your feedback and see if we can't get some changes made <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Tinrae]

<p><cite>Grimaul wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> I have always said that most of the classes shouldn't have been split into two seperate ones,  and the bard is a great example of this.  Do I think that the classes should be combined back into a single one?  Of coarse I do and I think this would benefit for a lot of classes in the game. </p></blockquote><p>My boyfriend (who played EQ1 from beta up until DoN) has said the same exact thing. For a long time, his EQ1 main was a bard so naturally he rolled one here, a dirge. He hated it and pretty much said it's such a shadow of the character he once played. I think he would have rerolled it had he not planned to make it a crafter. I understand that EQ1 =/= EQ2, but I agree with your points given - with so many classes that can perform essentially similar roles, it's imperative to precisely define what makes each one unique and make sure they excel at their key skills. That's a hard thing to do with so many classes yet only 4 main archetypes.</p><p>I love my troubie and have put a lot of effort into making her what she is, even if I am a casual player, so I would love to see her get some dev love. However, I can't make any suggestions for a proposed revamp other than what has already been posted here in other threads: fixing and updating broken/outdated skills mostly.</p>

[Grimaul]

<p>     Yes there are post that address the out of date skills and so on, but they are all from last year.  What I'm trying to do</p><p>here is get some fresh ideas from the veterans.  But, from what I am seeing from most of the post on this forum is the</p><p>same story different day.  I know people like to focus on the key classes in this game and the rest get thrown on the</p><p>back burner simmering for hours till they explode.  Well now is the troubadors comunnity time to explode in a manner of</p><p>speaking <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />    </p><p>     Or maybe I'm just kidding myself,  the troubador community has been yelling and screaming as to what can help our</p><p>class out, only to have it fall on deaf ears.   Well I hope this isn't the case anymore and there is always the chance that</p><p>someone may be listening...     I hope.</p>

[soulljah]

<p>One of the problems now a days is dirges give so many more useful ablitities that for grp content why in the world would anyone want to take us troubs when they can get a dirge instead? When you become limited to 6 spots in a grp why take a class that really only benefits the one or at most two mages in the grp if your lucky. While on the other hand you can bring a dirge that will most likely benefit everyone in the grp. And no you can't count any aa's in the bard line because both classes give those buffs, so whats left for us to give out? A deagro, spell proc, j cap, maestro, mini tc and some haste and defense/mit.</p><p>Sadly less and less people roll new troubs now a days because of problems like this and the things grim mentioned. So pretty much the only people playing troubs atm are either people like myself, who have been playing the toon and raiding since launch, people just messing around for fun because its a class they never played, or people who pretty much just had to lvl a troub up because their raid needed one. Pretty much there lies our only strength is our desireability in raids.</p><p>I haven't looked at the stats recently but in the past we were always listed  as one of the least played class % wise, i wouldn't be surprised if we are dead last now.</p>

[Mew]

<p>My main in EQ1 was a bard, also.  I loved him.  It took real skill to play an EQ1 bard until they added all the handy dandy fluff tools because the (no, I won't say it) complained about how hard it was to play a bard. All that key mashing got to be too much for them - nevermind acutally having to swap to a new song mid-fight....Sorry, I had to digress. For EQ2 I shelved my troub and ran with a necromancer and a templar (that later became an inquisitor). </p><p>Troubs are not the buff bots they once were.  There have been some improvements.  You can no longer just put the bard on autofollow and have no one notice the difference.  But, I agree, it would be better to combine the dirge and troub classes into one class.</p>

[Vincenzo]

<p>Good thread. I'm a Dirge myself but I like what the OP is saying. It's not a question of specific abilities, it's about defining a role, a raison d'etre for each class.</p><p>Hopefully the devs will take a look at the two bard classes in isolation at some point and think about issues like these.</p>

[Vincenzo]

<p><cite>Mewse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My main in EQ1 was a bard, also.  I loved him.  It took real skill to play an EQ1 bard until they added all the handy dandy fluff tools because the (no, I won't say it) complained about how hard it was to play a bard. All that key mashing got to be too much for them - nevermind acutally having to swap to a new song mid-fight....Sorry, I had to digress. For EQ2 I shelved my troub and ran with a necromancer and a templar (that later became an inquisitor). </p><p>Troubs are not the buff bots they once were.  There have been some improvements.  You can no longer just put the bard on autofollow and have no one notice the difference.  But, I agree, it would be better to combine the dirge and troub classes into one class.</p></blockquote><p>And just to clarify (this is a big and common misconception) , they added /melody to allow you to autotwist some songs which was a big help for many bards (including me) who actually started to suffer with RSI as a result of twisting songs 5-6 hours per day.</p><p>However: you still had the option to twist (even with instruments, although eventually we had all instrument modifiers worn in our armour) , and doing so allowed you to twist one to two more songs per cycle than what the game automatically did with /melody.</p><p>And later they heavily nerfed some of the bards abilities (justifiably imo) but the EQ bard still remained a special and enjoyable class which somehow the EQ2 bards have never quite captured.</p><p>Just my 2 cents.</p>

[Anfauglith]

<p>Troubies suffer from what furies suffered in rok and eof. A few players with horrible skills giving a bad name for to all troubies for the whole community.</p><p>(at least that's how it is on Crushbone)</p>

[Grimaul]

<p>     Overall there are people in this game that can give a bad name for any class soley based on there skills or lack there</p><p>of with said class.  But, my reasoning for coming up with this discussion has nothing to do with class balancing or skills</p><p>needed to play a troubador or bard.  It's like what Cerissa said in her post,  I'm not trying to go into particular abilities. </p><p>What I'm trying to do is try to get is some feedback on to what can improve our classes over all role.  The repeated</p><p>misconceptions are all related to different circumstances, but the overall role of the class has nothing to do with these</p><p>things.  The fact in the matter lies, as a whole, the bard classes in general have problems based on what they were</p><p>made to do. </p><p>     The only thing is what can give bards that "old school" flair that they had in EQ1 without making them seem too</p><p>over-powered?  Dirges are melee and troubadors are magic...   Is that all we have to work with?!  Of coarse not.  Bards</p><p>offer other things because they are utility classes that contribute to everyone else including themselves.  In other games</p><p>the bard is usually a rogue with the use of magic/songs to implement these contributions.  I will say for EQ2 the rogue</p><p>aspect is mediocre at best and the magic/songs could use some refinement and consolidation.  Our true role isn't</p><p>signifigantly dimenished with these problems but I always say that there is always room for improvement.  So let's hear</p><p>some new suggestions.   There are many other post about the role of bard classes in general, but what would you do</p><p>different to make our class more accessible? </p><p>     As for my suggestion,  pick a true role for us.  The only way to bring bards back to there former glory is to combine</p><p>both the bard classes back to one, but like I said this will probably never happen.  We can, however, polish up what we</p><p>have so that both classes are equal at buffing melee dps as a primary and then have healing and/or spellcasting buffs</p><p>as a secondary...  Example, just look at paladins and shadowknights.  Each are tanks respectivly, but one is a healer,</p><p>defensive type, the other a spellcasting, offensive.  None the less they are both adequete tanks.  Please don't take</p><p>this reference though into discussion.  We can leave that for the crusader forums.   But please take my suggestion into</p><p>consideration and come up with some other ways to improve our class <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Mew]

<p>I want instruments that can be placed in my charm or primary and secondary slot!  I want a guitar remenicent of the mystical (and noisy) "Kabonger" of that great and heroic troubador of the wild west, "El Kabong"!  A one handed crush weapon with sound effects!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p>P.S.  Yeah, I am dating myself.  So, what?</p>

[Buffnbot]

<p><cite>Mewse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>P.S.  Yeah, I am dating myself.  So, what?</p></blockquote><p>Nobody else will? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Searching on "el kabong" ....</p><p><img src="http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n185/blubyrds/1bc7a678.jpg" width="638" height="550" /></p><p>Yeah ... looking good! I want the horse illusion too.</p><p>I play a lot of level 80 toons (8 total) and right now I having a lot of fun with my Troubie. Like him slightly better than my Dirge.</p>

[Mew]

<p>Honestly, I would like the Charm spell to last a lot longer than it does.  It used to be about 30 secs as I recall.  Then chanters complained and the bard charm got nerfed to 8 secs (without AA's).  Now that chanters got their big dps upgrade I think it would be fair to restore our charm to its original duration.</p><p>I know the PvP'ers want more run speed.  With every AA available to bards our runspeed is still only as good as some mid-quality mounts.  Personally, I don't care but others seem to.</p><p><em><strong>More concentration slots!!!!!</strong></em></p><p>Health and power regen songs need a small boost.</p><p>At tier 8 our debuff songs could debuff a bit more - not a lot more - just a little.</p><p>Dirge's get a ressurection spell. What do troubs get that is equivelent?</p>

[Pendant]

<p><cite>Mewse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>It used to be about 30 secs as I recall.</blockquote><p>Mine was 5 minutes -ish. Then it went to 7-and-a-half minutes -ish.</p><p>Then it went to 7 seconds.</p><p>Now it's about 12 seconds.</p><p>I have more fun with it now that it's a short duration spell than when it was longer - even though when I heard it was being 'nerfed' I at first thought it was going to be a game-killer for me. Just proves how little I know.</p><p>Different strokes for diff'rent folks <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Buffnbot]

<p>Small incremental gains on debuffs, mezzing, charming would probably go under the radar of other classes, so that could be easily done. Giving us another concentration slot would have mutliple classes screaming bloody murder.</p><p>Troubie's won't shine until the mage classes surpass the scouts by a DPS margin that is in line with the disparity of the cloth vs. chain. If thats not in the immidiate future it would be nice for the devs to throw the Troubs a few small bones rather than nerfing our Dirge brothers.</p><p>With regard to how Troubs are percieved by people who haven't had a chance to group with them much, theres not much we can do there, except play well and surpass expectations. In retrospect naming my Troub Buffnbot (I thought it was funny) might have only served to reinforce a stereotype. If I had to do it over again I would have gone with Bofnbutt. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Inggy]

<p><cite>Mewse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly, I would like the Charm spell to last a lot longer than it does.  It used to be about 30 secs as I recall.  Then chanters complained and the bard charm got nerfed to 8 secs (without AA's).  Now that chanters got their big dps upgrade I think it would be fair to restore our charm to its original duration.</p><p>I know the PvP'ers want more run speed.  With every AA available to bards our runspeed is still only as good as some mid-quality mounts.  Personally, I don't care but others seem to.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>More concentration slots!!!!!</strong></em></span></p><p>Health and power regen songs need a small boost.</p><p>At tier 8 our debuff songs could debuff a bit more - not a lot more - just a little.</p><p>Dirge's get a ressurection spell. What do troubs get that is equivelent?</p></blockquote><p>Charm is nice but we're not chanters....I'd rather not have yet another skill (read Job) to add to my list.  Works in a pinch for CC when needed but otherwise as a soloing tool, its very lacking.</p><p>As for run speed, I do find it annoying when I see mages just trot on past me but otherwise if I was that worried about my run speed I'd just get a mount.</p><p>Omg more buffing?  Not to be a pain here but as it is I'm casting 17 buffs everytime I die.  I'd rather see those buffs be more of an instant cast -- not this 3 seconds for one, 2 secs for this one, .5 secs for another routine.  On most trash mobs if I die to whatever on pull (mem-wipe mobs FTW!! >.< ) I'm spending the whole fight rebuffing and AA'n.</p><p>Yep HP/PWR songs are weak, even at M1 with Max AA's spent.....if you don't believe me take the Illy out of your raid group and watch the power bars.</p><p>Agreed our Debuffs could use a looking into.</p><p>JC?  /shrug.</p>

[Notes]

<p>Everything in this post hits it on the head for what Troubs are lacking,  especially as a chain class we are far behind what other chains are doing without the right gear and AA.  But I like my spot in my raid and I get enough groups to get by so am not going to complain too much.</p><p>I did see one disturbing trends starting, the amount of mobs that my charm or mezz will not work on.  This is a primary spell for my soloing and it is being taken away.  Doing the quest for the new lavastorm instance and pulled 2 connected mobs on the beach, and get the "this spell will not work on this creature".  Come on it only lasts 12 secs, not like its going to be overpowering.</p><p>I would like to see more dps out of Troubs, but not a huge increase, just enough to get me up the parse a little <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Cnotes</p>

[Inggy]

<p><cite>Notes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Everything in this post hits it on the head for what Troubs are lacking,  <span style="text-decoration: underline;">especially as a chain class we are far behind what other chains are doing without the right gear and AA</span>.  But I like my spot in my raid and I get enough groups to get by so am not going to complain too much.</p><p>I did see one <span style="text-decoration: underline;">disturbing trends starting, the amount of mobs that my charm or mezz will not work on</span>.  This is a primary spell for my soloing and it is being taken away.  Doing the quest for the new lavastorm instance and pulled 2 connected mobs on the beach, and get the "this spell will not work on this creature".  Come on it only lasts 12 secs, not like its going to be overpowering.</p><p>I would like to see more dps out of Troubs, but not a huge increase, just enough to get me up the parse a little <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Cnotes</p></blockquote><p>Yep Bards in general are very gear dependant.  If your gear is so so, so will your parse.  There's more to it than just gear but w/o gear......</p><p>This trend might be a result of the er Coercers solo'n places like Chelesth. </p><p>I've not seen an Illy do it or do it as well as a good Coercer.  But basiclly it came in to keep the "solo" classes from solo'n instances which IMO is pretty lame.  If you're able to solo and don't mind spending the time so be it.  With most of the loot today being no-trade it isn't breaking the economy.</p><p>Personally I'd like to see our DPS much closer to that of the "other" support classes ie Chanters, doubt that will happen but they fill the same niche as we do so why not.   The biggest problem is resolving our hybrid design.  We need gear that addresses, MC, SC, +DPS, DA, Haste, Spell cast reduction, Melee and Spell mod. </p><p>With present itemization I doubt seriously any Bard will be able to max out all of those mods and for good reason.  Most non-raid gear typically only addresses 1 or 2 of those mods. </p><p>O</p>

[Pendant]

<p><cite>Notes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I did see one disturbing trends starting, the amount of mobs that my charm or mezz will not work on.  This is a primary spell for my soloing and it is being taken away.  Doing the quest for the new lavastorm instance and pulled 2 connected mobs on the beach, and get the "this spell will not work on this creature".  Come on it only lasts 12 secs, not like its going to be overpowering.</p></blockquote><p>I have to /agree with this.</p><p>The problem isn't so much the (seemingly totally arbitrary) allocation of which beasties are immune to charm, it's the fact that the battle rhythm is upset when such incidents occur. And if bards are about anything, they're about rhythm <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Pendant]

<p><cite>Tinrae wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> with so many classes that can perform essentially similar roles, it's imperative to precisely define what makes each one unique</p></blockquote><p>I have to disagree with this (sorry).</p><p>If a class were 'precisely defined' then all toons of a certain class would be clones.</p><p>How the role is played is at least as important as the numbers that go into making up that character. One of the things that I enjoy most about EQ2 is the fact that there is so much variety (in all aspects of the game).</p><p>For many years now, my troubie has used a shield. A great many people believe that this is a mistake, but it works for me. Each to his / her own <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> </p>

[Kulaf]

<p><cite>Mewse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dirge's get a ressurection spell. What do troubs get that is equivelent?</p></blockquote><p>Nothing.  Because unfortunatly our mez remains a group/solo mob only spell.  Personally I think CC is way underused in Raids and they really need to allow us to mez Epic x2's.</p>

[Pendant]

<p><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nothing.  Because unfortunatly our mez remains a group/solo mob only spell.  Personally I think CC is way underused in Raids and they really need to allow us to mez Epic x2's.</p></blockquote><p>I have mezzed epicx2s - fairly recently, too - even though the description of <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">charm</span> mesmerise says that it won't work (I've noticed that some spell descriptions have to be taken with a pinch of salt).</p><p>But the mez doesn't last very long - I've not been able to identify why that is. Maybe epics simply (understandably) have a higher resistance to mez than normal beasties? Or it could be that it's simply that someone hits it (which would be par for the course).</p>

[Legion11]

<p>Ok I've just started playing my troubador again after a LONG break, so I'm probably a bit out of touch with the class problems.  However I've been playing the game almost since launch and am well aware of the desireability of melee dps over casting dps in groups.</p><p>DIRGES BUFF MELEE:</p><p>1.  A dirge will buff himself 100% since he is more of a true scout.</p><p>2.  A dirge will buff the predators and rogues in his group.</p><p>3.  A dirge will buff the tank, who's melee abilities have been creeping up to scouts lately.</p><p>TROUBADORS BUFF CASTERS:</p><p>1.  A troubador will buff 50% of himself since we aren't a true scout, but a hybrid scout/mage.</p><p>2.  A troubador will buff the sorcerers/summoners/enchanters in his group (if there are any allowed).</p><p>And there it is - a dirge buffs 3 or 4 classes in EVERY group, including 100% buffing to his own abilities, whereas a troubador only buffs .5 to 1.5 classes in most groups.  The decision when building a group is a no-brainer.</p><p>The solution is right in front of us though, and is so simple I'm not sure how it can be missed.  If troubadors buff CASTING, why not casting of all types, including heals?  If every group has a tank (buffed by the dirge) every group also should have a healer (buffed by the troubador). </p><p>Simply add another proc onto Aria - in addition to the 45% chance or whatever of it proccing an added nuke for the mages, give it an additional 45% chance of proccing a healing effect whenever the healer fires a beneficial spell.  Maybe a 500 point heal on the healers current target, with an added 100pt Overflow heal to the whole group for a small extra bonus.</p><p>If a dirge can buff 2 complete (melee) archetypes - Fighters and Scouts, why shouldn't troubadors buff 2 complete (casting) archetypes in Mages and Priests?</p>

[Mew]

<p><cite>Legion11 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The solution is right in front of us though, and is so simple I'm not sure how it can be missed.  If troubadors buff CASTING, why not casting of all types, including heals?  If every group has a tank (buffed by the dirge) every group also should have a healer (buffed by the troubador). </p><p>Simply add another proc onto Aria - in addition to the 45% chance or whatever of it proccing an added nuke for the mages, give it an additional 45% chance of proccing a healing effect whenever the healer fires a beneficial spell.  Maybe a 500 point heal on the healers current target, with an added 100pt Overflow heal to the whole group for a small extra bonus.</p><p>If a dirge can buff 2 complete (melee) archetypes - Fighters and Scouts, why shouldn't troubadors buff 2 complete (casting) archetypes in Mages and Priests?</p></blockquote><p>/nod emphatically</p>

[Bridgeplay]

<p>More concentration slots probably isn't practical, but reducing the number of spells that need a concentration slot would give troubadors a needed boost.</p><p>Nowadays my level 80 troub is parked most of the time. As is my 80 wizard that I box him with.</p>

[Pendant]

<p><cite>Legion11 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>1.  A dirge will buff himself 100% since he is more of a true scout.</p></blockquote><p>/nod emphatically. No way you can call me a 'true scout.' Tracking sucks. I hate it with a passion.</p><p>Seefar peers around a corner, trying to see whether there's any danger beyond. 'Anything on track, scout?' asks the 'true tank.' Seefar fiddles around with interface options, trying to find out if there's any 'names' around (since that's what the 'true tank' is really asking), and while he's distracted by the kludgy text interface, a wandering monster roams by and chops his head off.</p><p>Everyone laughs uproariously at the foolish mage-buffing bot.</p>

[Itea]

<p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;">Adding a HEALER buff to the troub is a very interesting concept… We already increase casting speed by 8% (same as dirge)... Give a heal crit bonus of up to 12.5%... An additional proc to AoM would be awesome and pretty powerful, especially for the druids.</span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;">What I would like to see would be a kick-back to JC – every time we cast it on someone else, the troub should feel the same effects… Its bad enough we can’t cast Upbeat Tempo on ourselves for solo purposes (although if it was flagged as an out of grp self buff would be very useful).Yes, the troub CAN dps, but I feel the troub should cast JC and debuff the heck out of the mob(s) so the high-end dps can kill it. </span></p>

[Aaramis]

<p>Just recently returned to EQ2, so I'm a bit like Legion11 here.  But from what I can see, there have been a few positive changes (hey, we're once again capable of being super-fast runners :p), but Troubs as a whole still need more boosts.  Improving the base damage on some of the Troub abilities (and Dirge for that matter) would help to bring them more in line with the other scouts.  Sure, we have more utility than any other line, but it does sadden me that I could use every single button in my hotbar, and my 80 Assassin could outdps that in one mere combat art.  That's just wrong.</p><p>There also aren't a whole lot of short-duration buffs to use for dps burns.  Dirges have the Cacophany line;  Troubs get PoTM.  I don't see the harm in adding further short-duration clickies.  Furthermore, I'd love to see PoTM upgraded even further.  It's currently not on par with Cacophany IMO.  +INT and DD proc on every spell cast for the group (and +INT is debatable on it's effectiveness for most pure casters) vs. haste + disease DD proc + interrupt.  When you factor in casting speed vs. hasted auto-attack speed, Dirge clearly wins here.</p><p>I'd also love to see a ranged snare or root ability for Bards.  If you discount the Trick of the Hunter CA, we only have one means of snaring (Sybil's line) which requires us to be in melee range, and could break before we can reapply it (which again requires us to get within melee range).  Why not add a mental snare/root spell similar to what Bards had in EQ1? (i.e. Largo's line - " is bound by strands of solid music").  I'd feel much safer in Kunark knowing I can kite enemies if I so chose, rather than having to equip a shield and/or having to mez them.  We have nearly a dozen ranged DD shouts and encounter debuffs, runspeed improvements, etc., but not many options in keeping the enemy away from us when solo.  Could even split it up and give us the snare (as we work better with casters anyway, who may want to kite), and give Dirges the slow (as they work better with melee types).  *shrug*.</p><p>Just throwing some ideas out there :p</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p><cite>Grimaul wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SOE said that they were going to start listening to the community.   <span style="color: #00ccff;">You said this like you actually believed it! OK, here is the mantra of those of us that are true cynics and have been playing EQ and EQ2 for a VERY long time.... "SOE doesn't listen to the community, won't ever listen to the community and doesn't care what the community thinks, wants, needs or desires, they only care about your monthly payment" Oh course that has changed some recently, they do care about what you are willing to spend more money on in the Station Exchange.</span></p><p> Troubadors may have a small voice but there is definitely a reason for that and I think some of these issues should be addressed. <span style="color: #00ccff;"> There is a very good reason for it, most people can't play a Troub, at least not very well. And for a lot of others, the class just doesn't do anything for them excitement wise. We don't parse, we don't have people calling for us (Have you ever heard "LF Troub for XXXXXXX"?), and in general very few people in game really have an true concept of what we can and can't do. Many think of us just as a "Dirge" for casters. I would be willing to bet that less then half of all players in EQ2 even know that we can Mezz much less know many of the other abilities we have. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00ccff;">I have two toons that I bounce back and forth on as my main toon depending on the guild's needs, a Troub and a Coercer. I was one of the very loud and obnoxious Coercers who quit playing that class because is was so messed up. But no matter how much was said, no amount of begging, cursing, pleading got the Coercers anywhere. It wasn't until a ton either quit the game or betrayed that SOE was finally forced to do something. I just don't see that happening to this class. Too many love the Troub and aren't willing to betray or quit, they simply are willing to go along with high hopes of someday SOE finally noticing that we have problems and decide to fix some of them. So, even though you think some of these issues should be addressed, it doesn't mean that SOE thinks so. All I can say is if you love playing a Troub, be happy with the way things are and pray that we don't get nerfed as each new GU that comes along, and don't ever be surprised when you read a GU post and don't see Troubador mentioned at all in the "fixed" portion of the post.</span></p><p>   </p></blockquote>

[skinandbones]

<p>Alot of good valid points here.</p><p>I would love for MEZ and charm effects increased some what.  I like to see the restriction of mez and charm removed for troubs.  Even if the resist was higher or duration a fixed amount.  Sometime that pinch is needed but if a troub cant mez an epic you are a worthless pinch.  EQ1 bards had no hardcore restriction on mez and charm.</p><p>I like to see power balled removed from consuming a concentration slot.  It wont break any content by allowing this.  Yeah we can load another song but yet again we have nothing really to break an entire encounter. </p><p>But as many have asked for is a revamp of our AA.  Some of the AA we get make no sense for us at all.  Some give such a half-baked (have to watch my language) description of what song they benefit.  Some I see no real point of why they are even offered to us.</p>

[Plurke]

<p>yes troubs is small community and forgotten</p><p>like for while people ask too change our debuffs they aren't worth a lot</p><p>then you have sonic aa end line which could be nice but now it increase dot's has asked for a fix for long time </p><p>we have powerdrains on spells they are useless in this game not changed still</p><p>the mezz okay you can use still if really needed but it's meh and charm is a joke</p><p>also the incombat health regenbuff is dumb in this game now so yeah</p><p>soe knows this hasn't fixed it sand have people asked few years back for changes on these matters so i would say yeah we are a forgotten class instead they find nerfing proc gear more important then basically first fixing and making classes have usable spells ca's and debuff it's kinda sad imo</p>

[Faelgalad]

<p>- Damage Scaling</p><p>- Debuff revamp</p><p>- nonsense Ability revamp</p><p>- changing spell skill buff into either resistabily reducing (don't know the english phrase) or an reuse buff for mages & priests.</p><p>- change requiem reflexion</p><p>- fix sonic interference</p><p>- fix devastation end skill</p><p>And, change Troubs away from a one trick pony.</p><p>Dirges are buffing Tanks, Melee DD's and Priests.</p><p>We are buffing Mages, also an reuse buff for mages and priests would be adequat, since our relevant ability for the mages is the damage group proc. Range increase is nice for mages, Skill Buff is not relevant, all other abilities (crit, fastcast) are shared with dirge.</p><p>In the end, we're going more to the side of the one-trick-pony.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Legion11 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Simply add another proc onto Aria - in addition to the 45% chance or whatever of it proccing an added nuke for the mages, give it an additional 45% chance of proccing a healing effect whenever the healer fires a beneficial spell.  Maybe a 500 point heal on the healers current target, with an added 100pt Overflow heal to the whole group for a small extra bonus. </p></blockquote><p>Ohhh I like that idea!</p>

[Urgol]

<p>The only sad thing about being a troub nowadays is that it doesn't matter anymore if you have a dirge, a troub or no bard at all outside of raid content</p><p>p.s. and I personally would take a trouby over a dirge to any heroic instance, and take a warlock or two, since I dont want to sit my as$ off in some sort of kurns tower for more then 30 min.</p><p>p.p.s. took the time to read the thread, go on with this, tell us of the great importance of dirge stoneskin (the only useful buff they have) in heroic content, which I now heal through on my paladin with a wizard tanking, because I'm too lazy to run up to the mobs and melee them</p>

[JackBurtonBTLC]

<p>" For a long time, his EQ1 main was a bard so naturally he rolled one here, a dirge. He hated it and pretty much said it's such a shadow of the character he once played."</p><p>Yup a very good friend of mine who wrote several EQ1 guides for the Bard class and some areas of the EQ1 world left EQ2 because of that exact same reason. Except he played a troubador. I can't get him to even look at this game. bummer</p>

[Kulaf]

<p>Not to be rude but your friend is being a bit overly dramatic.  I played a Bard in EQ1 for 6+ years and frankly the two Bards here are more interesting.  Sure they can't solo like a Bard in EQ1 but they bring a lot more to groups and a whole lot more to raids than their EQ1 counterpart.</p>

[JackBurtonBTLC]

<p>I too played a bard in EQ1 but was certainly no where as 'uber' as my friend was (heh). I'm also playing a bard in this game as well (on the side) and I can certainly see his view. EQ1 bard WAS pretty fantastic in many ways that are lacking in EQ2. Really the class was redesigned in EQ2 and is NOT the same at all (not that is a bad thing) as the bard in EQ1. I do agree that either you take each game for what it is, or you move on. For my buddy, he couldn't get past the many differences, I think he wanted EQ1, but with modern graphics.</p>

[Nimbrithil]

<p>3 dirges and 1 troub (for the caster group)=good raid setup.</p>