All tank classes need an Innate AE Taunt Buff like the SKs currently have. [Archive]

Risiko

03-21-2009, 07:12 PM

After playing a Guardian to level 80 (127AP) and half way through my weapon quest, I have grown extremely discontent with my ability to tank multiple mobs. Some will obviously say, "your roll is to tank single target mobs so who cares." Yeah great response, but there is one major flaw with that thinking. Almost all of the end game content is "multiple mob" fights, and a great majority of them are not "encounter" but rether unlinked multiple mob fights.Shadowknights have the innate ability to create agro on any mob in the area around them WITH OUT USING A SINGLE ABILITY. Their buffs create area effect agro all the time, non-stop. All other tank classes have to rely on taunt abilities and dps to create agro of which all have "reuse timers", so therefore the only tank class that has "always on area effect agro" is the Shadowknight.Why is that?Why would one class have such a MASSIVE benefit over all the other tank classes? You would think that to have that extreme of a benefit, they would be greatly hampered in some other facet of their class design. But, they aren't.Yes Guardians have great single target snap agro taunts, but they have reuse timers associated with them. Use your snap agro taunts in one fight, and they are down through the next few groups of mobs you fight. The Shadowknight on the other hand are creating insane agro through every single fight non-stop.And, to top it all off, I have numerous times been in a group with a shadowknight, popped my snap agro taunt abilities to get agro off the shadowknight (because I was supposed to be the main tank), and then a second later see the mob go RIGHT BACK TO THE SHADOWKNIGHT WITH OUT THE SHADOWKNIGHT HITTING ANY TAUNT ABILITIES!!!!!It's not right. No matter how you try to candy coat the situation. Shadowknights have a MASSIVE unfair adavantage when it comes to creating and maintaining agro on multiple mobs. And, in the game of TANKING, agro is the EVERYTHING. Guardians have the best defenses and mitigation, but it does no good if all the mobs are hitting the shadowknight instead of the guardian. What am I mitigating when the mobs wont look at me for more then a second before jumping back on the shadowknight.I do NOT want the Shadowknights nerfed. That is NOT what I want.I want all of the other tank classes in the game to be given an "always-on area of effect taunt buff" just like the shadowknights have now.You want to fix agro control in the game. Here is where you start becuase right now, tanking in this game is a joke if you are any class other then a shadowknight.

Rahatmattata

03-22-2009, 01:52 AM

Not sure what shadowknight buff you're talking about but guardians have a reactive taunt buff too.

Kunaak

03-23-2009, 01:11 AM

us berserkers have reactive taunt stuff too.with AA, we got lots of means to hold aggro, from generating aggro on shield blocks, to threat on strike when using adrenaline.guardians arent designed to do EVERYTHING, they have weaknesses like every other tank class. you gotta learn to work with what you got, and dont expect everything to be so easy. a good guardian can hold aggro on multiple mobs just as well as a good AOE tank. usually by chopping on one target for a few seconds, then moving to the next target (think of the librarians fight in POF)you can also spec for AOE damage, as a guardian, by using the AGL spec, going 4-4-8. that will get you one nice AOE attack thats up often + a constant 40% chance to hit multiple mobs within striking distance.specing for AOE damage is a perfectly viable option for a guardian, some of the highest end gaurdians I know, do so.STR + AGL + STA is a nice one.you lose haste and such from the INT line, but with a good group set up its no big deal.I am sure theres a way to make a good AOE damage gaurdian while maintaining the INT line, I just dont have the AA in mind to check out the options.

thial

03-23-2009, 04:20 PM

Yea guards have reactive taunts that have a chance generate agro when we are hit and an aa to add hate when blocked. Personally I think it should be 100% when we are hit not 50% but that’s my thought... As for controlling AE agro the AGI line while it may help some I find it worthless. I do better with my str sta int lines and maxing the TSO AA for the assault line. Even though it’s a slow casting aoe taunt it can help on encounters. Get agro locked on the first target quickly than start using the AE’s squeezing single target stuff in between and make sure to use immobility and watch the direction the mobs are facing if you see one is turned switch to it… And at the same time the dps’er needs to realize that you’re a guard and AoE agro is not your strong point so unless they like taking dirt naps they will learn to play nicely. As long as your main target is on you and the encounter is not attacking your healers you’re doing your job the rest is knowing how to work with the classes in your group. As for the SK and agro, I hate raiding with SK’s they aggravate me so much I can toss rescue and the mob bounces back to the SK I can cast reinforce the mob bounces back and forth till reinforce drops and half the time the SK still has it...This could also go into the fact the SK is not backing off when they get agro and also could be the SK doesn’t realize that life taps cause a good amount of agro. What do I do? I don’t waist the snaps; SK dies, not my fault if you’re a tank and your gona ride up my hate list than u better be ready to take a hit or else sit down. Only if it’s a name than I don’t risk the wipe and I get the mob back. There is definitely something overpowered about the class. I have no issue's with zerkers. SK’s need to be tuned down on hate generation to match that of the zerker…. Don’t worry though the class will be brought back down to a balanced level. O and don’t forget SK has the biggest taunt’s when you compare them to every other fighter…guard zerk pally monk bruiser all have the same taunt amounts on there primary single and group taunts while SK are the only ones that have a few 1000 more hate on there taunts and they can usually out DPS most fighters single target and encounter. Where’s the balance in that?

RafaelSmith

03-24-2009, 01:57 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for the SK and agro, I hate raiding with SK’s they aggravate me so much I can toss rescue and the mob bounces back to the SK I can cast reinforce the mob bounces back and forth till reinforce drops and half the time the SK still has it...This could also go into the fact the SK is not backing off when they get agro and also could be the SK doesn’t realize that life taps cause a good amount of agro. What do I do? I don’t waist the snaps; SK dies, not my fault if you’re a tank and your gona ride up my hate list than u better be ready to take a hit or else sit down. Only if it’s a name than I don’t risk the wipe and I get the mob back. There is definitely something overpowered about the class. I have no issue's with zerkers. SK’s need to be tuned down on hate generation to match that of the zerker…. Don’t worry though the class will be brought back down to a balanced level. O and don’t forget SK has the biggest taunt’s when you compare them to every other fighter…guard zerk pally monk bruiser all have the same taunt amounts on there primary single and group taunts while SK are the only ones that have a few 1000 more hate on there taunts and they can usually out DPS most fighters single target and encounter. Where’s the balance in that? </blockquote>Yeah trying to compete with a well played SK is futile. They have all the advantages at the moment and a well played and geared SK will smoke us threat and DPS and even surviveability. Even without trying to wanting they generate massive amounts hate. Its hard sometimes to even compete with their 'risidual' hate against mobs they are not even targetting or focusing on. Ive even had times where it seems the SK is just standing there not doing anything and mobs are sticking to him....I know thats not the case but it does seem often seem like that.So......In my guild there really are only two of us that are capable of tanking our raids......myself and a SK. Granted we are not into VP and the highest we have gone in TSO is the 2nd named in TMC. But relative is relative. We simply check egos at the door when starting a raid. For 8/10ths of the encounters our raid force tackles.....the SK is the clear no questions asked best choice to MT.......I gladly OT.......and surprisingly given the less than optimized raid force we have we have make a good team. For the other 2/10ths we swap and do our jobs. Outside of raiding......I don't even bother anymore.

Risiko

03-26-2009, 06:04 AM

I appreciate the responses, and some of them had some good tips.To put it bluntly, I have gotten so flustrated with my 80 guardian as of late that I have semi-retired him, and started up a ranger instead. At least as a Ranger, I know that I will get to do the intended roll of the class even if I am competing on dps meters with other classes that can probably out dps me easily. The point is, I will compete for that roll.On the guardian, I completely feel like an extra on raids and any group where there is more then one tank. If I get asked to go on raids I pretty much feel like someone is just feeling sorry for me or just absolutely can't find someone else to fill that raid spot and "reluctantly accepts the guardian."Sure if I had my mythical and was well geared I could get chosen as the MT or OT for a raid, but being new to level 80, I am more of a liability to a raid force as a tank then a help. I just add some dps, and just a very little bit. I don't expect to be dps, so don't get me wrong here. I am just saying that as a guardian, if I am not tanking, then I am a wasted spot on a raid. So, when the SK's innately out agro me, and I am not geared well enough to be MT or OT on a raid, then who wants me on a raid? And, if I can't get on raids, then I can't get geared which means I will never be MT or OT on a raid. In other words, hitting level 80 on my guardian has opened my eyes to the brick wall I just slammed my face in to not realizing it was even there till now. I truly wish I would have played anything other then a tank for the last 80 levels now. Sure an under geared dps class is not as good as a geared dps class, but it is still a good dps class. An under geared tank is a liability.So, for now, I am playing my little alt ranger, and picking up a raid here and there as I get accepted on my guardian.There really should be a warning when you create a tank class that states "Groups will love you from level 1 to 80. Expect to reroll at 80 to another class unless you have a guild that intends to let you suck off of them till you have enough gear to actually do your job as a tank."I know there are those that will disagree, but that's my feelings on the issue of tanks in this game.

RafaelSmith

03-26-2009, 10:52 AM

<cite>Risiko@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know there are those that will disagree, but that's my feelings on the issue of tanks in this game.</blockquote>Well, I agree 100% with you. A Guardian is a tank....nothing else.....to be a tank requires proper gearing and experience.....the only way to gain that is to be allowed to tank.......yet for the most part you are not allowed to tank without all that.......so its a lose lose. We are 99.9% useless as a 2nd fighter in a group.I havent quite switched over to a new class yet but I have pretty much stopped doing anything but attending the 1 or 2 raids a week my guild does. For the moment I am the only Guardian so I am used as OT and am getting geared up. The rest of the time....I log on do my MoY dailes.......see if any lowbie guildes need help in zones where I can do my job without having the prefect group...otherwise I turn on the XBOX =P

Aull

03-26-2009, 01:10 PM

Don't be to disappointed about your guardian. I will say that sk's have very nice abilities, but those abilities are worthless if the person playing the toon doesn't know how and when to use them. That can be said about any class though.Yes sk single and encounter taunts are currently rated at a high threat/hate level about all other fighters. Sk's are about hate anyway so this higher taunting power of the sk doesn't concern me as much as being able to have that coupled with great aa's and dps to boot.I enjoyed my zerker and bruiser but currently my sk with the vast abilities that is offered there really is not reason for me to play the zerker or bruiser.

Vlahkmaak

03-26-2009, 02:02 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yea guards have reactive taunts that have a chance generate agro when we are hit and an aa to add hate when blocked. Personally I think it should be 100% when we are hit not 50% but that’s my thought... As for controlling AE agro the AGI line while it may help some I find it worthless. I do better with my str sta int lines and maxing the TSO AA for the assault line. Even though it’s a slow casting aoe taunt it can help on encounters. Get agro locked on the first target quickly than start using the AE’s squeezing single target stuff in between and make sure to use immobility and watch the direction the mobs are facing if you see one is turned switch to it… And at the same time the dps’er needs to realize that you’re a guard and AoE agro is not your strong point so unless they like taking dirt naps they will learn to play nicely. As long as your main target is on you and the encounter is not attacking your healers you’re doing your job the rest is knowing how to work with the classes in your group.As for the SK and agro, I hate raiding with SK’s they aggravate me so much I can toss rescue and the mob bounces back to the SK I can cast reinforce the mob bounces back and forth till reinforce drops and half the time the SK still has it...This could also go into the fact the SK is not backing off when they get agro and also could be the SK doesn’t realize that life taps cause a good amount of agro. What do I do? I don’t waist the snaps; SK dies, not my fault if you’re a tank and your gona ride up my hate list than u better be ready to take a hit or else sit down. Only if it’s a name than I don’t risk the wipe and I get the mob back. There is definitely something overpowered about the class. I have no issue's with zerkers. SK’s need to be tuned down on hate generation to match that of the zerker…. Don’t worry though the class will be brought back down to a balanced level. O and don’t forget SK has the biggest taunt’s when you compare them to every other fighter…guard zerk pally monk bruiser all have the same taunt amounts on there primary single and group taunts while SK are the only ones that have a few 1000 more hate on there taunts and they can usually out DPS most fighters single target and encounter. Where’s the balance in that?</blockquote>What I find useful on multi target encounters is to have as assist in the group other than myself. The brigand, assassin, pretty much anyone who can target fast is good. When the encounter is pulled I get the encounters attention and then while reinforcement and my blue aoes are down I cycle my single target taunts and some dps onto each member of the encounter - wehn my big hits ar up I hit my assist key and pound the target my MA is on. When done properly the MA is not pulling the aggro off me just focusing group DPS on 1 target at a time. This leaves me free to build aggro all over. Yes, its annoying but it works quite well and keeps the mobs on me and everyone else alive.

RafaelSmith

03-26-2009, 03:53 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't be to disappointed about your guardian. I will say that sk's have very nice abilities, but those abilities are worthless if the person playing the toon doesn't know how and when to use them. That can be said about any class though.Yes sk single and encounter taunts are currently rated at a high threat/hate level about all other fighters. Sk's are about hate anyway so this higher taunting power of the sk doesn't concern me as much as being able to have that coupled with great aa's and dps to boot.I enjoyed my zerker and bruiser but currently my sk with the vast abilities that is offered there really is not reason for me to play the zerker or bruiser.</blockquote>I guess I sorta look at the whole class balance differently.. I take into account the player first. So while currently the SK in my guild outdoes me in every single way....I am hesitant to 'cry wolf' because I know I do not have all my masters, good/optimized gear or 200AAs like he does. I try to think about how things would be if I did. That said.....it does seem like currently a well played well geared SK is able to fill several roles all to well at the same time.....which sorta goes against what I view a 'hybrid'. I know once I have the good gear and the AAs and most importantly experience.....I still will only be able to serve one role. IEQ2 is not my first MMO.......having been in serious raiding in EQ1....I know that you use your best MT on raids. Currently that is our SK. It would be stupid for us to not use him as MT simply because......"Well Guards are suppost to MT raids".The raid situation is fine with me...I have no issues with how things are balanced out........what is frustrating to me is life outside of raiding.....primarily TSO instances.......its simply become too frustrating for me to even bother. So I am stuck without really being able to better myself outside of raiding. And while AE threat is a problem its not my biggest.....what I find to be way out of balance is that we can take any 5 people....they can group with the SK and run any instance in 1/3 the time that same group would take with me.

Landiin

03-26-2009, 05:46 PM

SK are currently OP, verry soon they will be nerfed back in line with the rest of us hopefully.

Rahatmattata

03-27-2009, 12:37 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess I sorta look at the whole class balance differently.. I take into account the player first. So while currently the SK in my guild outdoes me in every single way....I am hesitant to 'cry wolf' because I know I do not have all my masters, good/optimized gear or 200AAs like he does.</blockquote>Even if you had better gear and more masters and AA than him he'd still do more dps than you, hold hate better than you, and probably rip mobs right off you. At least guardians are a little harder to kill, but that's about it atm.

Risiko

03-27-2009, 05:09 AM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK are currently OP, verry soon they will be nerfed back in line with the rest of us hopefully.</blockquote>I really hope that is not the case. I would prefer they buff the guardians up to the level of the SKs instead.

RafaelSmith

03-27-2009, 10:14 AM

thial

03-27-2009, 10:54 AM

<cite>Risiko@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK are currently OP, verry soon they will be nerfed back in line with the rest of us hopefully.</blockquote>I really hope that is not the case. I would prefer they buff the guardians up to the level of the SKs instead.</blockquote> From my own expeirence SK's have huge spikes, I think that there hate really doesnt need to be reduced it needs to be spread out.....and after spread out than maybe reduced but if you leave them where they are soe would have to bring more than just guardians up.

Yimway

03-27-2009, 05:33 PM

I've already stated this elsewhere, but all fighters should have significant ST and AoE hate generation abilities, the difference between the different flavors of fighters should be the effective dps/debuffs on ST or AoE.Guards can have AoE abilities that are 100% taunt based and 0% dmg where an Sk could be 90% dmg based and 10% hate.This allows both classes to fill their role and still remain distinct.A guard should be defined by aggro control and CA's that have offensive debuff components and group buffs with defensive components.Sk's should be defined by aoe dps, ca's that debuff mobs magical defenses, and group buffs that benefit casters.I'm being breif in my post as its not entirely class forum appropriate, but fighter ballance can be struck in a 'tone' like this that will appeal to a higher % of the player base.

Farore

03-28-2009, 08:51 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've already stated this elsewhere, but all fighters should have significant ST and AoE hate generation abilities, the difference between the different flavors of fighters should be the effective dps/debuffs on ST or AoE.Guards can have AoE abilities that are 100% taunt based and 0% dmg where an Sk could be 90% dmg based and 10% hate.This allows both classes to fill their role and still remain distinct.A guard should be defined by aggro control and CA's that have offensive debuff components and group buffs with defensive components.Sk's should be defined by aoe dps, ca's that debuff mobs magical defenses, and group buffs that benefit casters.I'm being breif in my post as its not entirely class forum appropriate, but fighter ballance can be struck in a 'tone' like this that will appeal to a higher % of the player base.</blockquote>I agree 100%. I think soe should make every single tank hold hate on every type of mob. What do you expect from single target guards and brawlers in tso?.... when you make the entire content encounter based. It means: get a zerker or crusader. And btw iIdont know why there isn't heat on the pally right now. With a myth, and the fact that they gave us an overpowered cast ability at the end of the str line(and making the pally heals cast .5 seconds quicker) they can easily hps(heal per second, not hate per second) as much as an sk while tanking. They have BETTER aggro control than the sk, its called amends. Think about it, myth sorceor, amends, nuke away..... And they have just as good aoe damage as an sk in my opinion. I have an 80 pally with myth and having 7 ae's and 1 encounter means I do lots of damage in aoe, plus a myth clicky that does aoe damage. Plus sigil of heroism...holy ground.....Anyways, I think they should just give the guard massive ae taunts for this aoe expansion and maybe up the brawler aoe damage or something. I know that the guard used to be overpowered in RoK, with the awesome myth and was the stoutest tank out there. BUT....I hate to say it guys, after TSO, with the myth nerf, they are [Removed for Content]. Let go of the fact that "the guard is the best tank and that it doesnt need a fix because they are already the best MT in game." SK is now one of the stoutest, bloodletter pretty much saying that u ALWAYS have to kill an sk twice(dont get me started on 6 set raid gear bonus adding 1 more trigger to it). Because of the snap aggro that all tanks got, memwhipe mobs can be tanked by any of the tanks. Gaurdians have the worst passive aggro gains as well. Being the worst dps tank, and since right now taunts mean nothing, all the other tanks own it on single target because they all have much better dps.I know that soe is going to change fighters, which desperately needs some fixing. But as it stands now, holding hate against equally geared t1 dps in instances is impossible without a hate transfer or combat support(I have an myth 80 ranger so if some NOOB know-it-all comes in here and says my tank can hold aggro w/o combat support against ur ranger(unless ur a pally and put amends on me), ur wrong, its not that u suck, its just not possible. /awaits being flamed

Bruener

03-28-2009, 04:41 PM

Seriously, you guys are ridiculous. You come off of a huge high in RoK where you were light years ahead of any other tank, and the content was almost completely single target...and now half the content is AE based and suddenly its amazing how much we here that you are having trouble. The SK life-tap agro is huge...and yet RoK was np because it was all single target crap and the epic ability was junk compared to the other fighter abilities. Now we are in TSO...Plate tanks are more balanced than they ever have been. Guards are still the best ST tank out there. SKs were beefed up and finally brought into line....their epic lifetap ability is actually descent now that there is more than 1 mob on a pull so it creates some great agro....and now you guys think you deserve to have the AE agro control that the AE tanks have...or you think you deserve to have as much hate period as the other tanks.Hey you can't be the best in one area without sacrificing in other areas. Raid...what do you know most of the mobs are still single target. Guards are still the MT of choice.Lets see...what was it all the other plate tanks always had to here throughout RoK. Something like if you rolled any other tank besides a Guard don't expect to be MT. Well, I guess the opposite is true now...if you rolled a Guard, don't expect to be anything but the MT.Whats funny is you complain and yet everyday Guards are clearing all the TSO instances. Some have gotten bright enough to actually make a mirror spec for AE agro control...using the AE auto attack. How many of you guys have done that?

Rahatmattata

03-28-2009, 06:59 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey you can't be the best in one area without sacrificing in other areas.</blockquote>You mean like all around solo ability, DPS, and PvP?Nice little rant though. I'd give it a 6 out of 10.

Farore

03-28-2009, 07:09 PM

Tell me this, exactly WHAT category of the gaurdian right now makes it the automatic MT. SKs have better AE AND single target aggro, so do paladins, and zerkers can EASILY rival both crusaders. You seem to be forgetting something, AE spells are in fact(and i know this might be a shocker) usable on single targets..... So the aggro for the gaurd is the least of all the plate tanks, in aoe of course, and i would argue that its a tossup for single target, tho the 300% lifetaps for sk's and amends puts the crusaders(esp. paladins) higher. Even then, those other ae tanks do more dps, and dps is always > hate per second.As for defense, right now, SKs and pallys are some of the most survivable tanks. Sks getting bloodletter, divine aura, their new siphon hate stoneskin, reaving and their myth clicky. Pallys getting their heals(which cast so [Removed for Content] fast its so easy to use them in a pinch, esp. the nuke heal), divine aura, their myth which does 10% damage reduction PASSIVE and 10% incoming damage is heals, and their own passive death prevention that is good. Gaurds get ToS and block and some temp buffs that right now since everyone is getting massive diminishing returns on mitigation, aren't that great. Not to mention the worst death prevention in game, one that kills u again....that means nothing on long named fights in raids. Also, remember the guardian myth got change so its not near as good without the buckler line and the guard only has 5% damage reduction ON A PROC.Finally, the MT of our guild has an AE spec, and if you've played with a sorceror or ranger(assassins dont count cause they give the tank a transfer) that has a brain to hit 7+ k on encounters, Guardians stand no chance, and they still struggle with a bard or transfer. From the looks of it, you probably dont play a t1 dps or have a tank because you don't realize right now the guardian(and even brawlers) cannot hold t1 dps on multiple mobs.....The guardian is surpassed in all tank categories, hate per second, damage per second, and survivability.... THEY USED TO BE overpowerd, now is not the case.

Rahatmattata

03-28-2009, 07:12 PM

Because guardians are slightly better taking hits from single target epic bosses than other plate fighters, they get [Removed for Content] in every single other aspect of game play including threat control. Sound fair & balanced to me<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9293feeb0183c67ea1ea8c52f0dbaf8c.gif" border="0" />

Bruener

03-29-2009, 02:38 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because guardians are slightly better taking hits from single target epic bosses than other plate fighters, they get [Removed for Content] in every single other aspect of game play including threat control. Sound fair & balanced to me<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9293feeb0183c67ea1ea8c52f0dbaf8c.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>It does to me when all we have heard from Guards throughout the years is that Guards should be the MT of choice. Guess what you guys still are. Sorry if that means lacking in other areas...but the fact remains MTs on raid have to only worry about 1 mob and worry about surviving for 1 mob and keeping hate on 1 mob. Guards have no problem doing those things with their survival tools and with their snap agro abilities, yes reinforce is still the best snap agro ability in game and is not even that long of a recast. For years you have told other tanks that if you wanted to be a MT than roll a Guard, or in the case of RoK if you wanted to be a good tank roll a Guardian.Now the tables have turned....kinda. You still maintain being the best single target MT. Now we can all tell you Guards if you want to be anything but a MT you should have rolled a SK/Zerk/Pally. Feels good.

Bruener

03-29-2009, 02:46 PM

<cite>Farore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tell me this, exactly WHAT category of the gaurdian right now makes it the automatic MT. SKs have better AE AND single target aggro, so do paladins, and zerkers can EASILY rival both crusaders. You seem to be forgetting something, AE spells are in fact(and i know this might be a shocker) usable on single targets..... So the aggro for the gaurd is the least of all the plate tanks, in aoe of course, and i would argue that its a tossup for single target, tho the 300% lifetaps for sk's and amends puts the crusaders(esp. paladins) higher. Even then, those other ae tanks do more dps, and dps is always > hate per second.As for defense, right now, SKs and pallys are some of the most survivable tanks. Sks getting bloodletter, divine aura, their new siphon hate stoneskin, reaving and their myth clicky. Pallys getting their heals(which cast so [Removed for Content] fast its so easy to use them in a pinch, esp. the nuke heal), divine aura, their myth which does 10% damage reduction PASSIVE and 10% incoming damage is heals, and their own passive death prevention that is good. Gaurds get ToS and block and some temp buffs that right now since everyone is getting massive diminishing returns on mitigation, aren't that great. Not to mention the worst death prevention in game, one that kills u again....that means nothing on long named fights in raids. Also, remember the guardian myth got change so its not near as good without the buckler line and the guard only has 5% damage reduction ON A PROC.Finally, the MT of our guild has an AE spec, and if you've played with a sorceror or ranger(assassins dont count cause they give the tank a transfer) that has a brain to hit 7+ k on encounters, Guardians stand no chance, and they still struggle with a bard or transfer. From the looks of it, you probably dont play a t1 dps or have a tank because you don't realize right now the guardian(and even brawlers) cannot hold t1 dps on multiple mobs.....The guardian is surpassed in all tank categories, hate per second, damage per second, and survivability.... THEY USED TO BE overpowerd, now is not the case.</blockquote>Oh and as to your post. I do not play a T1 dps but I do play a tank class in a raiding guild where we have all 4 plate tanks in the raid. Balance in plate tanks is better than it ever has been. I am not going to refute what you said about Crusaders and Zerkers....they did get some nice tools this time around and yes agro is very nice. However, your last statement is wrong. Guards still win out when it comes to survivability based on the tools they have and how fast they come up.All plate tanks have been brought much closer in terms of balance. Guards still reign as MT. Other plates can fill in and have done so for other guilds now...but the tools are still all there for the Guard. OT spot has become more designed for the Crusaders or Zerker because they are much more versatile.I know you probably all wish you could go back to the glory of RoK where you were way beyond the other tanks...but SOE has finally addressed those areas and given some type of balance to the fighters, better than ever, and yes I have been at it since launch. They still provided you with the best tools to handle the MT position, and they even offerered you an alternative spec to handle AE mobs.As far as your statement about 7k+ pulling hate from the Guard that is just ridiculous. Our Guard consistently holds hate off of people doing 10k+. And than if one does happen to sneak by to go towards a dps...what do you know reinforce and it is on him like glue.

Farore

03-29-2009, 05:46 PM

First, I suppose you might be right about the MT spot, i just don't see exactly what it is the guard has that gives it auto MT spot. Pally's holy ground is better than reinforcements because it does 24 positions on each hit(and i know reinforcements does threat but like 200, not too great) and holy ground is 1 min 12 second recast, where reinforcement(after upgrading it in aa's) is 2 min 10 seconds..Also all tanks get snap aggro now, so reinforcements doesnt put them ahead really at all. Tower of stone and block is really all they have, and as i have stated before, crusaders already have some really nice stuff to compensate for that.Second, our MT guard can hold 12 k parses in raids, but im assuming when you say it's held 10K, it's in raids as well. I guess i should have specified. IN AE instances(all tso) it's impossible to hold 7 K plus w/o a combat support, and unbelievably hard to do so EVEN with bard or transfer(and im trying to be relative here, if some guards put on all their offensive gear they can do like 5 k in groups, but if you have an equivalent-geared t1 dps, they should be doing like 9 or 10). Point is, not all groups can be drige swash coercer guard healer, t1 dps. That would be cake cause stacking all the threat with moderate means it is possible, im just talking about generic basic groups that aren't rigged for hate keeping, the guard and brawlers(i throw them in because i feel bad for them because they have worse issues for tanking than guards) have no chance. That was my point.I still think it would be fair to give the gaurdian hate based ae aggro, but keep the zerker and crusaders up with their great ae dps. It should be balanced because you could argue guardians are slightly better at MT, but zerker and crusaders are slightly better at ae aggro because their ae aggro actually kills the mob, instead of just holding it on them(like the guards would do). Just a thought....

Rahatmattata

03-29-2009, 05:55 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Balance in plate tanks is better than still as jacked up as it has ever always been.</blockquote>You two can toss around dps numbers all you want but it really means nothing because every group/raid/guild/player/mob/encounter is different.

Bruener

03-29-2009, 08:01 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Balance in plate tanks is better than still as jacked up as it has ever always been.</blockquote>You two can toss around dps numbers all you want but it really means nothing because every group/raid/guild/player/mob/encounter is different.</blockquote>Wow you can quote somebody and completely change the quote...gratz. Doesn't change the fact that the balance in plate tanks is better than it ever has been. Please enlighten me on a time when it was actually better.

Rahatmattata

03-29-2009, 10:02 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Balance in plate tanks is still as jacked up as it has always been.</blockquote></blockquote>Doesn't change the fact that the balance in plate tanks is better than it ever has been. Please enlighten me on a time when it was actually better.</blockquote>L2 read. And your opinion is not "fact." Hate to burst your bubble though.

Bruener

03-29-2009, 11:17 PM

L2P. It is what it is, I am sorry you can't face it.

Lethe5683

03-29-2009, 11:24 PM

<blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Balance in plate tanks fighters is better than still as jacked up as it has ever always been.</blockquote></blockquote>

thial

03-30-2009, 12:04 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seriously, you guys are ridiculous. You come off of a huge high in RoK where you were light years ahead of any other tank, and the content was almost completely single target...and now half the content is AE based and suddenly its amazing how much we here that you are having trouble. The SK life-tap agro is huge...and yet RoK was np because it was all single target crap and the epic ability was junk compared to the other fighter abilities. Now we are in TSO...Plate tanks are more balanced than they ever have been. Guards are still the best ST tank out there. SKs were beefed up and finally brought into line....their epic lifetap ability is actually descent now that there is more than 1 mob on a pull so it creates some great agro....and now you guys think you deserve to have the AE agro control that the AE tanks have...or you think you deserve to have as much hate period as the other tanks.Hey you can't be the best in one area without sacrificing in other areas. Raid...what do you know most of the mobs are still single target. Guards are still the MT of choice.Lets see...what was it all the other plate tanks always had to here throughout RoK. Something like if you rolled any other tank besides a Guard don't expect to be MT. Well, I guess the opposite is true now...if you rolled a Guard, don't expect to be anything but the MT.Whats funny is you complain and yet everyday Guards are clearing all the TSO instances. Some have gotten bright enough to actually make a mirror spec for AE agro control...using the AE auto attack. How many of you guys have done that?</blockquote>I'm glade you enjoy your class. But you are wrong the tanks are far from balanced all that has happend is the tables have turned. So your saying that guard are ment only for raid MT? I don't think so. That would leave gaurd as the only class that can't explore all the content in the game while other tanks have no issue exploring all content seriously man you havn't got a clue. Yea we can spec our AA's to help. Stop b!tching because you think the game is perfect for you when it's not for others..I don't know about other guards but in order to keep up on agro I need to ditch the shield and dw there goes the deffensive edge...I shouldn't have to switch to dw to hold agro..dps yes but to hold agro..no..

Vlahkmaak

03-30-2009, 03:05 AM

If your a guardian there are 3 pieces of gear I swear by for these AOE intensive zones, especially outter Guk where you will see these pieces do alot of damage and help you with aggro. They are the mutegenic burst chest piece from RE2 off Slamhammer, the Mutegenic Ear piece fabled drop off last named in Deep forge and the mutegenic gloves off trash in Tomb of the Mad crusader. I have the BP and the gloves - ahve ran Deep forge a bazzillion gazzilion times and still no luck on the ear but with 2 pieces of mutegenic burst pieces I put out a nice blue aoe that hits between 400-700 on a guardian. On a paladin or SK with with higher int will prob be even nicer. With 10+ mobs beating on you there is a high chance for the gear to proc repeatedly doing decent damage to add to your hate.In addition to specing AGI for these zones do not have people assit through you as a guardian - assign a MA, a if it was a raid, so that you can focus taunts on stray encounter members. Yhea, its harder than a sk/pally in here (never played a zerk so I cannot comment) but a guardian can get the job done. Group composition is important in Outter guk, dirge or troub and an enchanter is very helpful but at least 1 or the other.

RafaelSmith

03-30-2009, 10:57 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow you can quote somebody and completely change the quote...gratz. Doesn't change the fact that the balance in plate tanks is better than it ever has been. Please enlighten me on a time when it was actually better.</blockquote>I suppose if I could tank any encounter/instance in the game with ease, while dishing out mage DPS and without requiring other classes to generate my hate for me, I would think everything was balanced.

Yimway

03-30-2009, 11:52 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets see...what was it all the other plate tanks always had to here throughout RoK. Something like if you rolled any other tank besides a Guard don't expect to be MT. Well, I guess the opposite is true now...if you rolled a Guard, don't expect to be anything but the MT.</blockquote>For the record, SK is a better MT for 99% of the content as well. Takes an SK a bit of gearing to get there, but once geared, its a no-brainer.+bloodletter procs == more survivability.

Rahatmattata

03-30-2009, 04:32 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your a guardian there are 3 pieces of gear I swear by for these AOE intensive zonesThere is a belt that drops somewhere in Runnyeye with mutagenic burst too.</blockquote>

Vlahkmaak

03-30-2009, 08:43 PM

Yhea, have seen the belt on loot DB and a supposed pair of cloth pantaloons but I like the ward on Iron Will too much to unequip that belt an cloth panteloons....well, prob just not a good idea even though the addition of these 2 items would up the damage effect like 50%.

Rahatmattata

03-31-2009, 12:10 AM

I normally just use Iron Will belt as a temp buff before a pull. It sucks you can't swap other gear in combat anymore. It would be awesome to have a macro that equips the belt, casts iron will + block, then equips previous belt. That would actually make the game more fun and items more dynamic IMO if you could swap stuff like that and use clickies combined with abilities in one macro like that.

Yimway

03-31-2009, 12:13 PM

We did such things back in KoS. It was a bit overpowering for some classes, so the ability was removed.

Malkave

04-20-2009, 06:01 PM

first time posting on any forum like this.. i know i'll go through a ringer also for what i am about to say.. but who cares..1) Pre-DOF SK were pretty [Removed for Content] good tanks for their dps and survivability.. DOF / EOF / ROK expansions beat SK's into submission.. SK's were crap for DPS when we tried to tank in defensive and were crap for survivability when we tried to DPS.. at the same time guards/zerkers were hitting if not 100/100 DA and MC they were pretty [Removed for Content] close with just AA.. paladins were using amends as the only single buff that provided more than 15% hate transfer, receving over 40% from a warlock and holding agro with 1 single cast easy mode button.. one either this forum or flames there was a zerker/pally thread that bragged about hitting auto attack and getting a drink..and no one was b*tching..2) TSO expansion comes out.. most tanks get reworked abit.. guards/pally = defensive tanks while zerkers/sk = offensvie dps tanks.. TSO also shines a light on something SK's have always tried to use for agro/dps.. Proc gear.. with just AA crusaders reach 68% spell crit.. SK's previously b*tched through DOF to ROK that we felt like mages in plate which is why our survivabiltiy was less than other tanks.. but with the massive introduction of Proc gear a good portion of SK agro can come from procs.. which obviously are enhanced by higher innate casting speed, INT and spell crit.. again, no one b*tched about these affects till TSO..there is still a thread up on eq2flames SK forum labeled something similar to "you are lucky to reach the end game as an SK in a raiding guild".. this is a pre TSO thread.. but it highlights exactly what every 'true' SK has gone through to keep a raid slot in the past 3 expansions..3) Threat Meter.. jesus, i have read numerous threads from other tanks talking about how a 'lesser' geared/mastered SK is [Removed for Content] your threat meter so something MUST be wrong with the SK.. look just because you have 100 threat doesn't mean thats the end.. if you are at 100 and someone is at 70 then suddenly jumps to 90+ that means YOU stopped or slacked off.. their number is a direct % of YOURS.. my SK can use Deathmarch on a raid and jump from 75 to maybe 80 on the meter vs our Guardian.. now i can take agro from him no problem, and sometimes i do just for a second when he takes a big spike dmg hit and my intercede is down atm.. but i can loose that agro just as fast by slowing my casting order or if i have to using my FD on myself.. and he can hold that agro for the rest of the fight with no problems..my point is he is not slacking off just because he reaches that magic 100 on the threat meter..4) AE agro.. this is a different animal all together.. it has already been stated that the game dynamic has changed from single hard hitting mob encounters to numerous lesser hitting mob encounters.. i can honestly say that guardians need help from SOE in this regard.. but not just because of SK's or zerkers AE attacking.. warlocks / conjuors and any other AE based class has came into their own with TSO encounters.. as far as Blue AOE's and their agro on single target mobs.. its not effecient enough for me to even cast my blue ae's on less than 3 mobs.. the casting time vs dmg/threat increase ratio is so low that i skip them.. so maybe instead of nerfing SK's dps or threat, maybe guards could ask for moderate to be group wide.. you wouldn't be encroaching on the AE tanks turf, you would still have a little harder time vs AE tanks in AE encounters but you would have an easier time in non raid instances..stop asking for a nerf and come up with ways to fix your class.. sounds strangely like what coercers and SK's had to do for almost the last 3 years..5) pen*s envy.. it happens.. i know.. as soon as the SK changes came there was a huge influx of crappy SK alts.. this spawns a metric crap ton of threads some how 'proving' that SK are over powered if some 'noob' can roll one up to 80 and steal agro like no ones business.. guess what, i could of done that with a zerker or pally for the last two expansions and no one would of b*tched.. the game mechanics have changed.. get over it.. its no longer clear cut who is the best MT or OT any more based solely off your choice of class.. it has way more to do with which buttons your fingers are hitting and when.. cause believe me, a well played guardian is still better than a average played SK/Zerk/Pally on an Epic fight.. but the pool of well played characters has a light beaming down on it and the not so well played ones are b*tching the loudest.. and that goes for every class btw..6) Mythic weapons.. the one halfway reasonable post to a thread regarding sudden SK agro bursts pointed out that the mythic SK weapon procs a buff that lasts for 15sec.. any healing done to the SK by their lifetaps is turned into hate with a 300% multiplier.. now where everyone gets it wrong is they think "Hey!! that means SK's can use a 1k lifetap and get 3k hate!! or they can use Tap Arteries and get close to 15k threat!! they are soooo OP'ed its not funny!! NERF'EM!!!".. this line of reasoning is patently wrong.. any HEALING done to the SK by their lifetaps is turned into hate.. HEALING.. which means for my SK to gain any benefit from that proc he has to be below 100% life.. standing in a mage group or someone other DPS group at full life on a raid will not net ANY benefit from that proc..point to take away from this lesson class.. ITS NOT THE SK MYTHICAL.. /sigh..7) Bloodletter vs all other self death preventions.. yes bloodletter is a better raid death prevention.. raid buffed i effectively have over 30-34khp for almost every fight, if i had the right VP gear that gave me +1 to bloodletters charge id be over 45khp.. its better than the guard one that kills you guys at the end of its timer.. i think the zerker one does something similar.. its even better than the pally one that leaves them stunned and stifled when it goes off.. what it will do though is kill any raid member too low one life when it siphons health from them to give to the SK as a heal.. and that has happened a few times for me personally on raids, and a whole lot of times on PUG instances..heres how i use it on a raid though.. i'm constantly intervening on my MT guards behalf.. i've dug through my parses and dragged out about 20% of the damage he would of taken on that fight passed over to me.. i'm able to do that without concern for myself on most fights because i know bloodletter is up and even if i'm at 20% life and he goes down to 30% and could be one/two shotted i still use intercede.. if i die, oh well he lived and i'm back to 100% ready to intercede again if needed..its better, i'll admit it.. its prolly the one of the strongest survivability skills in the game for tanks.. but we get that at level 80.. what level is the first warrior death prevention introduced? hmmm?<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> my only real point is stop crying for a dev to take a nerf bat to SK's or any other class.. we begged and pleaded our case for 3 years to get the changes we needed/wanted.. no one should have to do that.. this game is only about the end game.. and when it comes to the end game its a 24 man sport.. if you were watching an allstar foot ball game and you saw randy moss walk out on the field you wouldn't ask for him to dip his hands in cooking grease, just because you know he is gonna have more completed receptions than the other guy.. if you have a good raid force, then if you do your job and the other 23 people do theirs then you shouldn't have that many issues.. if you are having problems then first make sure you are doing everything YOU can do first.. then work with those around you to make sure they are doing what THEY can do.. everything else will take care of itself..

RafaelSmith

04-21-2009, 10:43 AM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote>first time posting on any forum like this.. i know i'll go through a ringer also for what i am about to say.. but who cares..1) Pre-DOF SK were pretty [Removed for Content] good tanks for their dps and survivability.. DOF / EOF / ROK expansions beat SK's into submission.. SK's were crap for DPS when we tried to tank in defensive and were crap for survivability when we tried to DPS.. at the same time guards/zerkers were hitting if not 100/100 DA and MC they were pretty [Removed for Content] close with just AA.. paladins were using amends as the only single buff that provided more than 15% hate transfer, receving over 40% from a warlock and holding agro with 1 single cast easy mode button.. one either this forum or flames there was a zerker/pally thread that bragged about hitting auto attack and getting a drink..and no one was b*tching..2) TSO expansion comes out.. most tanks get reworked abit.. guards/pally = defensive tanks while zerkers/sk = offensvie dps tanks.. TSO also shines a light on something SK's have always tried to use for agro/dps.. Proc gear.. with just AA crusaders reach 68% spell crit.. SK's previously b*tched through DOF to ROK that we felt like mages in plate which is why our survivabiltiy was less than other tanks.. but with the massive introduction of Proc gear a good portion of SK agro can come from procs.. which obviously are enhanced by higher innate casting speed, INT and spell crit.. again, no one b*tched about these affects till TSO..there is still a thread up on eq2flames SK forum labeled something similar to "you are lucky to reach the end game as an SK in a raiding guild".. this is a pre TSO thread.. but it highlights exactly what every 'true' SK has gone through to keep a raid slot in the past 3 expansions..3) Threat Meter.. jesus, i have read numerous threads from other tanks talking about how a 'lesser' geared/mastered SK is [Removed for Content] your threat meter so something MUST be wrong with the SK.. look just because you have 100 threat doesn't mean thats the end.. if you are at 100 and someone is at 70 then suddenly jumps to 90+ that means YOU stopped or slacked off.. their number is a direct % of YOURS.. my SK can use Deathmarch on a raid and jump from 75 to maybe 80 on the meter vs our Guardian.. now i can take agro from him no problem, and sometimes i do just for a second when he takes a big spike dmg hit and my intercede is down atm.. but i can loose that agro just as fast by slowing my casting order or if i have to using my FD on myself.. and he can hold that agro for the rest of the fight with no problems..my point is he is not slacking off just because he reaches that magic 100 on the threat meter..4) AE agro.. this is a different animal all together.. it has already been stated that the game dynamic has changed from single hard hitting mob encounters to numerous lesser hitting mob encounters.. i can honestly say that guardians need help from SOE in this regard.. but not just because of SK's or zerkers AE attacking.. warlocks / conjuors and any other AE based class has came into their own with TSO encounters.. as far as Blue AOE's and their agro on single target mobs.. its not effecient enough for me to even cast my blue ae's on less than 3 mobs.. the casting time vs dmg/threat increase ratio is so low that i skip them.. so maybe instead of nerfing SK's dps or threat, maybe guards could ask for moderate to be group wide.. you wouldn't be encroaching on the AE tanks turf, you would still have a little harder time vs AE tanks in AE encounters but you would have an easier time in non raid instances..stop asking for a nerf and come up with ways to fix your class.. sounds strangely like what coercers and SK's had to do for almost the last 3 years..5) pen*s envy.. it happens.. i know.. as soon as the SK changes came there was a huge influx of crappy SK alts.. this spawns a metric crap ton of threads some how 'proving' that SK are over powered if some 'noob' can roll one up to 80 and steal agro like no ones business.. guess what, i could of done that with a zerker or pally for the last two expansions and no one would of b*tched.. the game mechanics have changed.. get over it.. its no longer clear cut who is the best MT or OT any more based solely off your choice of class.. it has way more to do with which buttons your fingers are hitting and when.. cause believe me, a well played guardian is still better than a average played SK/Zerk/Pally on an Epic fight.. but the pool of well played characters has a light beaming down on it and the not so well played ones are b*tching the loudest.. and that goes for every class btw..6) Mythic weapons.. the one halfway reasonable post to a thread regarding sudden SK agro bursts pointed out that the mythic SK weapon procs a buff that lasts for 15sec.. any healing done to the SK by their lifetaps is turned into hate with a 300% multiplier.. now where everyone gets it wrong is they think "Hey!! that means SK's can use a 1k lifetap and get 3k hate!! or they can use Tap Arteries and get close to 15k threat!! they are soooo OP'ed its not funny!! NERF'EM!!!".. this line of reasoning is patently wrong.. any HEALING done to the SK by their lifetaps is turned into hate.. HEALING.. which means for my SK to gain any benefit from that proc he has to be below 100% life.. standing in a mage group or someone other DPS group at full life on a raid will not net ANY benefit from that proc..point to take away from this lesson class.. ITS NOT THE SK MYTHICAL.. /sigh..7) Bloodletter vs all other self death preventions.. yes bloodletter is a better raid death prevention.. raid buffed i effectively have over 30-34khp for almost every fight, if i had the right VP gear that gave me +1 to bloodletters charge id be over 45khp.. its better than the guard one that kills you guys at the end of its timer.. i think the zerker one does something similar.. its even better than the pally one that leaves them stunned and stifled when it goes off.. what it will do though is kill any raid member too low one life when it siphons health from them to give to the SK as a heal.. and that has happened a few times for me personally on raids, and a whole lot of times on PUG instances..heres how i use it on a raid though.. i'm constantly intervening on my MT guards behalf.. i've dug through my parses and dragged out about 20% of the damage he would of taken on that fight passed over to me.. i'm able to do that without concern for myself on most fights because i know bloodletter is up and even if i'm at 20% life and he goes down to 30% and could be one/two shotted i still use intercede.. if i die, oh well he lived and i'm back to 100% ready to intercede again if needed..its better, i'll admit it.. its prolly the one of the strongest survivability skills in the game for tanks.. but we get that at level 80.. what level is the first warrior death prevention introduced? hmmm?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> my only real point is stop crying for a dev to take a nerf bat to SK's or any other class.. we begged and pleaded our case for 3 years to get the changes we needed/wanted.. no one should have to do that.. this game is only about the end game.. and when it comes to the end game its a 24 man sport.. if you were watching an allstar foot ball game and you saw randy moss walk out on the field you wouldn't ask for him to dip his hands in cooking grease, just because you know he is gonna have more completed receptions than the other guy.. if you have a good raid force, then if you do your job and the other 23 people do theirs then you shouldn't have that many issues.. if you are having problems then first make sure you are doing everything YOU can do first.. then work with those around you to make sure they are doing what THEY can do.. everything else will take care of itself..</blockquote>I agree with just about everything you said. I made a suggestion a few months back about making Moderate a group buff or perhaps a concentration buff....but as usual it never saw the light of day. I would like for SOE to fix us...not nerf you. There has to be at least a hundred different ways they could tweak us that would not alter our primary focus of being a ST tank. I even thought about perhaps making it so if I wield a 2hander that my single target CAs and taunts had a 'chance' to hit nearby mobs......'cleave'.The issues i face today as Guard is mostly related to the content and the gear/itemization....and very little has to do with the Guardian class itself. Another big portion of the issues I see is because while SOE has allowed DPS to scale scale scale....raw threat abilities...especially the single target variety have not. Its actually quite telling to be in a raid or group with an SK who is obviously tanking....and see my threat % not change a bit when I just spam tuants or CAs with +threat. But if I do a few high DMG CAs....I can see it go up a few %. In a game that has evolved to the point where DPS is king for aggro......the defense tanks suffer while the AE/DMG tanks shine....and as we all get better and better gear their potential rises while mine stays rather stale.The Guardian class just feels out of place in EQ2 and its current 'state'.Perhaps If I were at the top end and had the best gear I could afford to sacrifice all my "tanky" gear for DPS gear...and be more aggressive...but thats not the case. But then I would ask myself....why not just be a Zerker instead of pretending to be one?As you said...content wise with TSO the game has shifted heavily towards AE.....but more importantly it has raised DPS even higher has being required...not just for aggro but also for simply clearing alot of the TSO zones. SKs and Zerkers are able to fill two purposes with their high DMG.The game should be challenging not frustrating. While...with the perfect group setup....perfectly behaved DPS classes...I can MT any TSO instance........but its not fun....not for me and surely not for the other group members....its simply frustrating and SLOW. They could have just taken a SK and not had to worry about all the things they have to worry about with a Guard...had fun and done so at faster pace instead of the slow crawl.

Carthr

04-21-2009, 11:52 AM

Read the spell description for Grave Sacrement..... Once you read it, you'll understand alot more why your having issues with SK's ripping.. It's more about the SK not knowing how to effectively off tank, and not rip the main mob..<ul><li>Increases Threat to targets in Area of Effect by (see below) </li><li>When target takes any damage this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker. <ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 1 position </li></ul></li></ul>So as you can see, that spell has a 33% chance to bump the SK up a hate position any time anyone in the raid hits it.. It's a 30 second AoE reinforcement, proc'd by anyone, not just the SK. If I'm reading it right anyways... Always kinda hookie reading some of those things.. But everytime our OT SK would pop it, it'd rip the main named off my guard.. and then we'd get into a ping pong match

RafaelSmith

04-21-2009, 01:12 PM

<cite>Carthrax wrote:</cite><blockquote>Read the spell description for Grave Sacrement..... Once you read it, you'll understand alot more why your having issues with SK's ripping.. It's more about the SK not knowing how to effectively off tank, and not rip the main mob..<ul><li>Increases Threat to targets in Area of Effect by (see below) </li><li>When target takes any damage this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker. <ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 1 position </li></ul></li></ul>So as you can see, that spell has a 33% chance to bump the SK up a hate position any time anyone in the raid hits it.. It's a 30 second AoE reinforcement, proc'd by anyone, not just the SK. If I'm reading it right anyways... Always kinda hookie reading some of those things.. But everytime our OT SK would pop it, it'd rip the main named off my guard.. and then we'd get into a ping pong match</blockquote>I hate saying something is over the top.....but if I read the description of Grave Sacrement correctly.....it definately is over the top. No Tank should be able to have that kinda aggro.....especially one that isnt exactly hurting for aggro anyways.It almost encourages careless play on the part of the rest of the group or raid.

Yimway

04-21-2009, 02:50 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Carthrax wrote:</cite><blockquote>Read the spell description for Grave Sacrement..... Once you read it, you'll understand alot more why your having issues with SK's ripping.. It's more about the SK not knowing how to effectively off tank, and not rip the main mob..<ul><li>Increases Threat to targets in Area of Effect by (see below) </li><li>When target takes any damage this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker. <ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 1 position </li></ul></li></ul>So as you can see, that spell has a 33% chance to bump the SK up a hate position any time anyone in the raid hits it.. It's a 30 second AoE reinforcement, proc'd by anyone, not just the SK. If I'm reading it right anyways... Always kinda hookie reading some of those things.. But everytime our OT SK would pop it, it'd rip the main named off my guard.. and then we'd get into a ping pong match</blockquote>I hate saying something is over the top.....but if I read the description of Grave Sacrement correctly.....it definately is over the top. No Tank should be able to have that kinda aggro.....especially one that isnt exactly hurting for aggro anyways.It almost encourages careless play on the part of the rest of the group or raid.</blockquote>*FACT*Let me say this though. I strongly believe every tank should be able to build both AoE and Single target aggro to relatively the same degree.What needs to seperate tank classes are 2 things:1) How they take damage2) How they deal damageSK, zerker, bruiser (if thats the real split) are the aoe tanks, then they should output aoe dps much more effectively.Pally, Guard, Monk would then need to excel at ST dps, while other tanks would still be able to hold ST aggro.What should differentiate the tanks is how they mitigate damage, and the amount of outgoing dps they provide.So, if we are to rank them in dps output, they should be:AoE dps:Bruiser> SK > ZerkST Dps:Monk> Pal > GuardConversily survivability should then be a direct opositeSurvivability should be roughly the same, but there are ways you could actualy make survivability be ST and AoE.Survivability of AoE tanks:Zerk > SK > BruiserSurvivability of ST tanks:Guard > Pal > MonkDo all this effectively without changing the playstyle mechanics (over spammy taunts in the last attempt) and you've got a successful fighter revamp.

Oakum

04-21-2009, 03:53 PM

Interesting thread. I am raising a gaurd that is currently lv 61.I wont say much about balance between gaurds and sk's. My wife has an SK so it might be unhealthy or at least be a "couchable" offense. J/K. I really dont know that much about the issue other then the MT I raid with doesnt like "having" to use DPS in order to maintain aggro over DPS classes along with his normal taunts.Now from a warden perspective. Tanks should be able to hold aggro but as a healer/dps hybrid, I should be able to more dps then someone wearing 100 pounds of plate metal for longer.Druids have more magical ability then tanks, a bigger mana pool and we traded more protective armors, heals that land last, all heals being half regens, decent debuffs, and decent tank/group buffs that the other healer classes have do DPS while not healing. By all means, balance plate tanks, my upcoming gaurd will appreciate it. But dont forget to fix wardens to do the other side of their class to be above all plate/chain healers, plate tanks, and pure utility classes.I know its a pipe dream, wardens have been ignored since everything was almost balanced with LU-13. At least gaurds will probably be fixed and the tank classes balanced whenever they finally do the fighter revamp.

Rahatmattata

04-21-2009, 04:52 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote>my only real point is stop crying for a dev to take a nerf bat to SK's or any other class.. we begged and pleaded our case for 3 years to get the changes we needed/wanted.. no one should have to do that.. this game is only about the end game.. and when it comes to the end game its a 24 man sport..if you have a good raid force, then if you do your job and the other 23 people do theirs then you shouldn't have that many issues.. if you are having problems then first make sure you are doing everything YOU can do first.. then work with those around you to make sure they are doing what THEY can do.. everything else will take care of itself..</blockquote>I'm sorry for you that the class you played sucked for three years. But, shadowknights are overpowered in many ways (solo, pvp, threat, dps) and should be brought down (nerfed). Just because a class has sucked for a long time doesn't mean it's ok to make it op. I understand enjoying being op and not wanting to get nerfed. I didn't want my guardian to get nerfed in GU50. But it needs to be done for the game's health.

Thunndar316

04-21-2009, 07:51 PM

My 80 Guard can't hold aggro at all. He only has 125 AA and no Fabled yet but it's still frustrating as hell. Run a pickup group with no hate transfer. I'm comstantly getting aggro ripped by the assassin, brig, wizard, ect. They look at me like it's my fault.I am full out DPS spec, master taunts, offensive stance, and I can not keep aggro. Makes me sick that I chose this class over the SK.

therodge

04-21-2009, 08:23 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote>first time posting on any forum like this.. i know i'll go through a ringer also for what i am about to say.. but who cares..1) Pre-DOF SK were pretty [Removed for Content] good tanks for their dps and survivability.. DOF / EOF / ROK expansions beat SK's into submission.. SK's were crap for DPS when we tried to tank in defensive and were crap for survivability when we tried to DPS.. at the same time guards/zerkers were hitting if not 100/100 DA and MC they were pretty [Removed for Content] close with just AA.. paladins were using amends as the only single buff that provided more than 15% hate transfer, receving over 40% from a warlock and holding agro with 1 single cast easy mode button.. one either this forum or flames there was a zerker/pally thread that bragged about hitting auto attack and getting a drink..and no one was b*tching..2) TSO expansion comes out.. most tanks get reworked abit.. guards/pally = defensive tanks while zerkers/sk = offensvie dps tanks.. TSO also shines a light on something SK's have always tried to use for agro/dps.. Proc gear.. with just AA crusaders reach 68% spell crit.. SK's previously b*tched through DOF to ROK that we felt like mages in plate which is why our survivabiltiy was less than other tanks.. but with the massive introduction of Proc gear a good portion of SK agro can come from procs.. which obviously are enhanced by higher innate casting speed, INT and spell crit.. again, no one b*tched about these affects till TSO..there is still a thread up on eq2flames SK forum labeled something similar to "you are lucky to reach the end game as an SK in a raiding guild".. this is a pre TSO thread.. but it highlights exactly what every 'true' SK has gone through to keep a raid slot in the past 3 expansions..3) Threat Meter.. jesus, i have read numerous threads from other tanks talking about how a 'lesser' geared/mastered SK is [Removed for Content] your threat meter so something MUST be wrong with the SK.. look just because you have 100 threat doesn't mean thats the end.. if you are at 100 and someone is at 70 then suddenly jumps to 90+ that means YOU stopped or slacked off.. their number is a direct % of YOURS.. my SK can use Deathmarch on a raid and jump from 75 to maybe 80 on the meter vs our Guardian.. now i can take agro from him no problem, and sometimes i do just for a second when he takes a big spike dmg hit and my intercede is down atm.. but i can loose that agro just as fast by slowing my casting order or if i have to using my FD on myself.. and he can hold that agro for the rest of the fight with no problems..my point is he is not slacking off just because he reaches that magic 100 on the threat meter..4) AE agro.. this is a different animal all together.. it has already been stated that the game dynamic has changed from single hard hitting mob encounters to numerous lesser hitting mob encounters.. i can honestly say that guardians need help from SOE in this regard.. but not just because of SK's or zerkers AE attacking.. warlocks / conjuors and any other AE based class has came into their own with TSO encounters.. as far as Blue AOE's and their agro on single target mobs.. its not effecient enough for me to even cast my blue ae's on less than 3 mobs.. the casting time vs dmg/threat increase ratio is so low that i skip them.. so maybe instead of nerfing SK's dps or threat, maybe guards could ask for moderate to be group wide.. you wouldn't be encroaching on the AE tanks turf, you would still have a little harder time vs AE tanks in AE encounters but you would have an easier time in non raid instances..stop asking for a nerf and come up with ways to fix your class.. sounds strangely like what coercers and SK's had to do for almost the last 3 years..5) pen*s envy.. it happens.. i know.. as soon as the SK changes came there was a huge influx of crappy SK alts.. this spawns a metric crap ton of threads some how 'proving' that SK are over powered if some 'noob' can roll one up to 80 and steal agro like no ones business.. guess what, i could of done that with a zerker or pally for the last two expansions and no one would of b*tched.. the game mechanics have changed.. get over it.. its no longer clear cut who is the best MT or OT any more based solely off your choice of class.. it has way more to do with which buttons your fingers are hitting and when.. cause believe me, a well played guardian is still better than a average played SK/Zerk/Pally on an Epic fight.. but the pool of well played characters has a light beaming down on it and the not so well played ones are b*tching the loudest.. and that goes for every class btw..6) Mythic weapons.. the one halfway reasonable post to a thread regarding sudden SK agro bursts pointed out that the mythic SK weapon procs a buff that lasts for 15sec.. any healing done to the SK by their lifetaps is turned into hate with a 300% multiplier.. now where everyone gets it wrong is they think "Hey!! that means SK's can use a 1k lifetap and get 3k hate!! or they can use Tap Arteries and get close to 15k threat!! they are soooo OP'ed its not funny!! NERF'EM!!!".. this line of reasoning is patently wrong.. any HEALING done to the SK by their lifetaps is turned into hate.. HEALING.. which means for my SK to gain any benefit from that proc he has to be below 100% life.. standing in a mage group or someone other DPS group at full life on a raid will not net ANY benefit from that proc..point to take away from this lesson class.. ITS NOT THE SK MYTHICAL.. /sigh..7) Bloodletter vs all other self death preventions.. yes bloodletter is a better raid death prevention.. raid buffed i effectively have over 30-34khp for almost every fight, if i had the right VP gear that gave me +1 to bloodletters charge id be over 45khp.. its better than the guard one that kills you guys at the end of its timer.. i think the zerker one does something similar.. its even better than the pally one that leaves them stunned and stifled when it goes off.. what it will do though is kill any raid member too low one life when it siphons health from them to give to the SK as a heal.. and that has happened a few times for me personally on raids, and a whole lot of times on PUG instances..heres how i use it on a raid though.. i'm constantly intervening on my MT guards behalf.. i've dug through my parses and dragged out about 20% of the damage he would of taken on that fight passed over to me.. i'm able to do that without concern for myself on most fights because i know bloodletter is up and even if i'm at 20% life and he goes down to 30% and could be one/two shotted i still use intercede.. if i die, oh well he lived and i'm back to 100% ready to intercede again if needed..its better, i'll admit it.. its prolly the one of the strongest survivability skills in the game for tanks.. but we get that at level 80.. what level is the first warrior death prevention introduced? hmmm?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> my only real point is stop crying for a dev to take a nerf bat to SK's or any other class.. we begged and pleaded our case for 3 years to get the changes we needed/wanted.. no one should have to do that.. this game is only about the end game.. and when it comes to the end game its a 24 man sport.. if you were watching an allstar foot ball game and you saw randy moss walk out on the field you wouldn't ask for him to dip his hands in cooking grease, just because you know he is gonna have more completed receptions than the other guy.. if you have a good raid force, then if you do your job and the other 23 people do theirs then you shouldn't have that many issues.. if you are having problems then first make sure you are doing everything YOU can do first.. then work with those around you to make sure they are doing what THEY can do.. everything else will take care of itself..</blockquote>i agree with everything but the red statement, i was in a quick PuR in labs (ok i was bored ) i had a dirge and coericer pulled 6k zw, i lost agro to the sk more then a couple times the sk pulled a 800 zw (thats right 800) and on the occation he did rip agro could hold it through my holy ground, and let me tell you their isnt any other class regardless of player (i dont care if its a 100k parseing assassin in mythical gm buff stuff) that can hold solid through holy ground it just shouldent be possible mechanic wise.

Malkave

04-21-2009, 09:23 PM

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote>i agree with everything but the red statement, i was in a quick PuR in labs (ok i was bored ) i had a dirge and coericer pulled 6k zw, i lost agro to the sk more then a couple times the sk pulled a 800 zw (thats right 800) and on the occation he did rip agro could hold it through my holy ground, and let me tell you their isnt any other class regardless of player (i dont care if its a 100k parseing assassin in mythical gm buff stuff) that can hold solid through holy ground it just shouldent be possible mechanic wise.</blockquote>if this is true, and i'm not doubting your honesty, then the SK you are referencing was the most crap-tacular SK ever.. now as an SK myself i have always had a personal hatred for Paladins on a personal level.. Holy Ground and Amends are practically god like in agro generation.. people compare Holy Grounds to Death March and thats just wrong.. DM is a massive group buff.. all grp buffs provide residual agro to the encounter, its like healer agro.. but Holy Grounds is a 23 position hate buff proc constantly going off.. understanding that as i do, i agree there is no one that SHOULD be able to take agro from you.. for my SK to pull agro off our paladin w/ holy ground running i have to blow every threat increase i have including get a spell crit on my master death touch for 20k dmg.. now, i can do it.. but my point is that this line of action is grounds for getting kicked out of raid on sheer principle for being a dumb player..in response to the issues about grave sacrament..<li>Increases Threat to targets in Area of Effect by (3-4k threat // ~2.5k dmg) </li><li>When target takes any damage this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker. <ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 1 position </li></ul></li>what that second bullet means is for 20sec 1 out of 3 hits will basically cast a mini 'rescue' on the mob that hit the SK.. its not an encounter wide rescue.. its not actual threat.. it means i have +1 hate than the next guy on the mobs list.. the SK does not control the proc at all.. SK's should NOT be using this as an offensive tool like what many of you seem to be seeing.. if that is the case then as an SK i appoligize for the noobs.. i do not see this as over powered when used properly or nessessarily game breaking.. it is on a 3min recast timer so its not effective DPS and should only be used when the SK is tanking AE encounters..contrast this spell with paladins Holy Ground..On any successful attack this spell will cast Holy Ground on target of attack.<ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 24 positions </li></ul>this is exactly why SK got GS.. this is an even better agro management tool in that the paladin chooses who he gains agro with, always gains 24 hate positions with every hit and it has a reuse timer of 1min 15sec.. used in conjunction with any one of a paladins AE attacks and they instantly become an excellent AE tank..i'm not calling for pally's to be nerfed.. but i don't think GS OP's SKs.. there are dumb people who play each class.. the SK class has always been a fast class to play.. even at our worst we could still solo effectively through quests and level quickly.. our dps has always been on par or higher than most other tanks if played correctly.. but now our surviveability has been increased to keep the class from dying out and this has made us into a desireable class.. i don't think we are OP'ed for the role we are required to be played in.. but like always SOE prolly used a chainsaw instead of a scalpel when adjusting the Guard/Zerker AA and toning down your T2 level dps..

Rahatmattata

04-22-2009, 12:43 AM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote>but like always SOE prolly used a chainsaw instead of a scalpel when adjusting the Guard/Zerker AA and toning down your T2 level dps..</blockquote>T2 dps? not quite. The only time I outparsed T2 dps classes was because I was the best geared player in the raid, the dpsers were slacking, and/or I had better dps buffs in my group than any other raid groups. In RoK, assuming proper AA, comparable gear, good group setup, type of mob, blah blah blah... every mage class could parse higher than me, rogues, predators, and brawlers parsed higher. On single target mobs.I did out dps a lot of scouts and wizards and such, but never on equal ground.

RafaelSmith

04-22-2009, 11:18 AM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My 80 Guard can't hold aggro at all. He only has 125 AA and no Fabled yet but it's still frustrating as hell. Run a pickup group with no hate transfer. I'm comstantly getting aggro ripped by the assassin, brig, wizard, ect. They look at me like it's my fault.I am full out DPS spec, master taunts, offensive stance, and I can not keep aggro. Makes me sick that I chose this class over the SK.</blockquote>I used to think that my aggro problems were the result of being undergeared and lack of AAs.But while my gear is not the greatest....its gotten better and is pretty good for my level of play......I am only 3 short of having all my T8 masters and currently have 198 AAs.Aggro didnt get any better. I am consistantly losing aggro to <insert class here> that just turned 80...have at best T2 shard gear and a few masters.If it wasn't for the fact that I have friends that play and that I enjoy some of the raiding I am getting to do.......even though i only serve as OT.....I would have deleted this game from my HD months ago. Its just too frustrating to try to do any serious heroic content. Its very discouraging to consistantly have to turn down guild group for TSO runs.

Carthr

04-22-2009, 05:08 PM

Yeah it is pretty sad to require a grp to have a dirge, just so we can maintain agro.. I wince when I see an Illy and an assassin in the grp, since I know I'm going to have my hands full on every single encounter.Precisely the reason why I now play my assassin.. Atleast I KNOW they won't get nerfed..

Yimway

04-23-2009, 02:16 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote>my only real point is stop crying for a dev to take a nerf bat to SK's or any other class.. we begged and pleaded our case for 3 years to get the changes we needed/wanted.. no one should have to do that.. this game is only about the end game.. and when it comes to the end game its a 24 man sport..if you have a good raid force, then if you do your job and the other 23 people do theirs then you shouldn't have that many issues.. if you are having problems then first make sure you are doing everything YOU can do first.. then work with those around you to make sure they are doing what THEY can do.. everything else will take care of itself..</blockquote>I'm sorry for you that the class you played sucked for three years. But, shadowknights are overpowered in many ways (solo, pvp, threat, dps) and should be brought down (nerfed). Just because a class has sucked for a long time doesn't mean it's ok to make it op. I understand enjoying being op and not wanting to get nerfed. I didn't want my guardian to get nerfed in GU50. But it needs to be done for the game's health.</blockquote>Make sacrament single target and SK becomes near reasonable. Probably adjust aoe dps down around 8-12% as well, but I don't really care what they dps at.

RafaelSmith

04-23-2009, 03:12 PM

Malkave

04-23-2009, 07:06 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote>my only real point is stop crying for a dev to take a nerf bat to SK's or any other class.. we begged and pleaded our case for 3 years to get the changes we needed/wanted.. no one should have to do that.. this game is only about the end game.. and when it comes to the end game its a 24 man sport..if you have a good raid force, then if you do your job and the other 23 people do theirs then you shouldn't have that many issues.. if you are having problems then first make sure you are doing everything YOU can do first.. then work with those around you to make sure they are doing what THEY can do.. everything else will take care of itself..</blockquote>I'm sorry for you that the class you played sucked for three years. But, shadowknights are overpowered in many ways (solo, pvp, threat, dps) and should be brought down (nerfed). Just because a class has sucked for a long time doesn't mean it's ok to make it op. I understand enjoying being op and not wanting to get nerfed. I didn't want my guardian to get nerfed in GU50. But it needs to be done for the game's health.</blockquote>Make sacrament single target and SK becomes near reasonable. Probably adjust aoe dps down around 8-12% as well, but I don't really care what they dps at.</blockquote>by chance did either of you read what i posted about the differences between Pally Holy Ground and SK Grave Sacrament? why do you instist that SK's are OP'ed due to their agro issues but forget about the faster reuse time and much higher agro of Paladins? believe me i'm not trying to deflect the discussion.. but you really aren't being resonable when comparing an AE tank vs a ST Tank..and i'm sorry that SK's are better able to take advantage of the current expansions itemization tables than the warrior classes.. but please don't tell me we are OP'ed just because we are on par with what the warrior classes have had for the last 3 expansions.. you've been spoon fed 3 expansions designed solely for your classes almost.. i'm not ready to say that the Crusader classes are OP'ed when you view them as the tanks SOE is pushing for..so you need a specific group make up to succeed in TSO instances.. so you need to ask your group to tone down the DPS for you to maintain agro.. if this really is the case then welcome to the SK life for the last 3 expansions.. its almost like you want to just reverse roles with SK's just so you don't have to feel what conj / necro / warlock / ranger / sk / bruisers / monks etc have felt for quite awhile.. Competition and the stigma that someone else could fill your group slot better..if a SOE Dev ever reads this.. Fix the Guardian class.. they need grp Moderate at level 80.. they need an easier/more reasonable path to ~50-60% AE auto attack.. they need an AA line that allows all of their taunts to become blue AE taunts for 20sec on a 1.3m reuse timer.. something to give them reasonable agro management without other classes feeling like they encroaching on their style of tanking..how hard was that? seriously? 3 reasonable class updates that would net you HUGE bonuses to your AE agro control..

Grumpy_Warrior_01

04-25-2009, 03:53 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote>by chance did either of you read what i posted about the differences between Pally Holy Ground and SK Grave Sacrament? why do you instist that SK's are OP'ed due to their agro issues but forget about the faster reuse time and much higher agro of Paladins? believe me i'm not trying to deflect the discussion.. but you really aren't being resonable when comparing an AE tank vs a ST Tank..</blockquote>1. <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=84606F90C238B31C43F522735AF338A4" target="_new1">Holy Ground</a> is a self-target spell on the paladin which must have another spell cast afterward in order to get an AoE effect -- Grave Sacrament is a true AoE that automatically targets mobs. One click does it all for the SK here.2. <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=9BD30C7D9366140A4F89CD1FD702BAA0" target="_new2">Grave Sacrament</a> adds up to 5192 threat to each and every target in an area roughly the size of a basketball court. To give you an idea of its potency, guardian (the single target expert) Master I single target threat (<a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=53F5BA80E7C4DB1A9C1600ECE914F414" target="_new3">Impede</a>) is 1812. The guardian's green encounter AoE taunt (called <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=9E73D1B9129D0BFEE7CA780708642488" target="_new5">Guard</a>) does 1491.3. In the same single button-click, Grave Sacrament also does an additional 1500 disease damage to all targets in AoE, which adds even more threat on top of the damage. 1 dps = 1 threat so about 6K threat total on each and every mob in the area. Paladin: zero damage, zero extra threat. When a SK fires off GS in a mass pull, with or without a guardian/paladin present, exactly where do you think the mobs are going to go?4. Holy Ground (and <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=BB16F0FEE5ECD86951057DB498C4EC22" target="_new4">Reinforcement</a>, incidentally) lasts for 13 seconds. Grave Sacrament lasts for 20 seconds. That's over 50% increase in duration on a spell that is already wildly overdone.(Values came off the new ZAM website which I think is tied into the game data.) Edit: oops on one of the numbers

Malkave

04-25-2009, 05:59 PM

Seriously trying to keep this on track with just SK/Guard info.. but i guess its more a Crusader/Guard thread.. again, i'm not flaming Paladins or nessessarily defending SK's.. i'm just trying to clarify some glaring misrepresentations of SK agro..<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=84606F90C238B31C43F522735AF338A4" target="_new1">Holy Ground</a> is a self-target spell on the paladin which must have another spell cast afterward in order to get an AoE effect -- Grave Sacrament is a true AoE that automatically targets mobs. One click does it all for the SK here.3. In the same single button-click, Grave Sacrament also does an additional 1500 disease damage to all targets in AoE, which adds even more threat on top of the damage. 1 dps = 1 threat so about 6K threat total on each and every mob in the area. Paladin: zero damage, zero extra threat. When a SK fires off GS in a mass pull, with or without a guardian/paladin present, exactly where do you think the mobs are going to go?4. Holy Ground (and <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=BB16F0FEE5ECD86951057DB498C4EC22" target="_new4">Reinforcement</a>, incidentally) lasts for 13 seconds. Grave Sacrament lasts for 20 seconds. That's over 50% increase in duration on a spell that is already wildly overdone.</blockquote>1) You can add almost 1k threat and 1k dmg to those GS numbers if you'd want to represent a non naked SK..2) Holy Ground is a self target spell on the paladin.. true enough.. but it is 100% chance to proc a 24 count threat increase on ANY mob the paladin hits EACH time they are hit.. thats a guaranteed straight shot to the top of the agro list for any mob you look at cross eyed.. it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing, each time a paladin hits a mob they are +1 threat over the next guy on the agro list.. sure you have to cast 1 more spell than the SK to gain agro.. but the SK has a 33% chance to have 1 threat increase with a mob that DAMAGES the SK..SK vs Paladin.. the SK class makes up for that agro difference in sheer DPS.. we trade survivability for DPS.. both crusaders can easily reach 500+ HPS when they are tanking.. but SK out DPS paladins by about 1-2k.. where paladins gain damage resistance/absorbtion to about 20-25% of incomming damage, on top of their heals..who's the AE crusader and whos the ST/AE crusader? 3) Duration: HG = 12sec w/ 1m30sec recast.. GS = 20sec w/ 3min recast.. who generates their agro faster?again.. not trying to deflect.. but no one has explained why SK's get so much greif over their AE tanking abilities when paladins get the same or better..<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>2. <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=9BD30C7D9366140A4F89CD1FD702BAA0" target="_new2">Grave Sacrament</a> adds up to 5192 threat to each and every target in an area roughly the size of a basketball court. To give you an idea of its potency, guardian (the single target expert) Master I single target threat (<a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=53F5BA80E7C4DB1A9C1600ECE914F414" target="_new3">Impede</a>) is 1812. The guardian's green encounter AoE taunt (called <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=9E73D1B9129D0BFEE7CA780708642488" target="_new5">Guard</a>) does 1491.</blockquote>1) Guards are not AE tanks.. Guards have never been good at AE fights.. but if you want to compare a single target guardian taunt to a blue ae taunt for a single target fight then.. Impede = 12,684 Threat/1min fight.. Grave Sacrament = 5,192 Threat/1min fight with at the least a 2min recast (1min fight + 2min left over = 3min GS recast timer)..2) I've already stated numerous times that Guards need their threat increased.. maybe double the threat on your taunts.. increase moderate to group wide.. SK don't need to be nerfed as much as Guards need to be caught up.. even if SKs were taken back a bit, all it would do is hurt more than the SK community.. AE dps classes would suffer the most and even ST dps classes would have to hold back..

Rahatmattata

04-26-2009, 06:10 AM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote>if a SOE Dev ever reads this.. Fix the Guardian class.. they need grp Moderate at level 80.. they need an easier/more reasonable path to ~50-60% AE auto attack.. they need an AA line that allows all of their taunts to become blue AE taunts for 20sec on a 1.3m reuse timer.. something to give them reasonable agro management without other classes feeling like they encroaching on their style of tanking..</blockquote>Uh... I'd be satisfied if they put sta dbl attk back to 60%. And if they changed the proc on the mythic epic weapon to something a little less suck, that'd be bonus.

RafaelSmith

04-26-2009, 05:47 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote> AE dps classes would suffer the most and even ST dps classes would have to hold back..</blockquote>You mean like they currently have to do with Guards as MT?

Malkave

04-27-2009, 09:12 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean like they currently have to do with Guards as MT?</blockquote>which is exactly my point.. calling for a nerf to SK's, or any class, is counter productive.. look for ways to improve upon your own class before asking to change another.. if you just nerf the SK back to where he was before, how does that help guardians? you'll still be in the same boat you are now, just you'll have some company..

RafaelSmith

04-28-2009, 05:32 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean like they currently have to do with Guards as MT?</blockquote>which is exactly my point.. calling for a nerf to SK's, or any class, is counter productive.. look for ways to improve upon your own class before asking to change another.. if you just nerf the SK back to where he was before, how does that help guardians? you'll still be in the same boat you are now, just you'll have some company..</blockquote>True. It would be great if SOE would fix/buff up the classes that are currently struggling. While I do not necessarily want anyone nerfed.....I do believe that whatever "fixes" SOE comes up with there will have to be some "toning down" of SKs. They went from being the jack of all trades, masters of nothing....which was broken and needed to be fixed to masters of everything which imo is also broken. Typical SOE they can't do anything in moderation.

Yimway

04-28-2009, 08:09 PM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote>by chance did either of you read what i posted about the differences between Pally Holy Ground and SK Grave Sacrament? why do you instist that SK's are OP'ed due to their agro issues but forget about the faster reuse time and much higher agro of Paladins? believe me i'm not trying to deflect the discussion.. but you really aren't being resonable when comparing an AE tank vs a ST Tank..</blockquote>1. <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=84606F90C238B31C43F522735AF338A4" target="_new1">Holy Ground</a> is a self-target spell on the paladin which must have another spell cast afterward in order to get an AoE effect -- Grave Sacrament is a true AoE that automatically targets mobs. One click does it all for the SK here.2. <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=9BD30C7D9366140A4F89CD1FD702BAA0" target="_new2">Grave Sacrament</a> adds up to 5192 threat to each and every target in an area roughly the size of a basketball court. To give you an idea of its potency, guardian (the single target expert) Master I single target threat (<a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=53F5BA80E7C4DB1A9C1600ECE914F414" target="_new3">Impede</a>) is 1812. The guardian's green encounter AoE taunt (called <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=9E73D1B9129D0BFEE7CA780708642488" target="_new5">Guard</a>) does 1491.3. In the same single button-click, Grave Sacrament also does an additional 1500 disease damage to all targets in AoE, which adds even more threat on top of the damage. 1 dps = 1 threat so about 6K threat total on each and every mob in the area. Paladin: zero damage, zero extra threat. When a SK fires off GS in a mass pull, with or without a guardian/paladin present, exactly where do you think the mobs are going to go?4. Holy Ground (and <a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=BB16F0FEE5ECD86951057DB498C4EC22" target="_new4">Reinforcement</a>, incidentally) lasts for 13 seconds. Grave Sacrament lasts for 20 seconds. That's over 50% increase in duration on a spell that is already wildly overdone.(Values came off the new ZAM website which I think is tied into the game data.) Edit: oops on one of the numbers</blockquote>Don't forget Sacrament puts a debuff on the mob with roughly a 33% chance each time it takes damage to increase the SK's hate position by 1.Comes down to the SK doesn't even have to hit the mob again to maintain the top slot on the mob's aggro list once sacrament lands.

Malkave

04-29-2009, 12:58 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't forget Sacrament puts a debuff on the mob with roughly a 33% chance each time it takes damage to increase the SK's hate position by 1.Comes down to the SK doesn't even have to hit the mob again to maintain the top slot on the mob's aggro list once sacrament lands.</blockquote>Have you even read the Grave Sacrament spell? You keep talking like its when the mob gets hit that it procs a +1 Threat Position for the SK.. This is utterly false and I've tried to explain it in plain english many times already..<li>When target is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker. <ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 1 position</li></ul></li>Grave Sacrament is a PBAOE.. /starts to speak slowly.. Grave Sacrament is a Point Blank Area of Effect spell.. I can't cast it on a mob at range.. The 'Target' is the SK.. so when the "Target", ie. the SK, is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on the "Target's", again ie. the SK's, attacker..The SK does not control who he gains agro with like the paladin or guardian threat increase.. which procs off those classes hits.. the SK has to rely on GETTING hit by the mob to increase their threat position..I'm sure you understand the game dynamics well enough to see the not so subtle differences between GS and other threat procs.. And how those differences are not game imbalancing..

thial

04-29-2009, 01:55 PM

I think what needs to be done to grave sacrament is it needs to be changed to direct damage. So if I am tanking a namer and the namer Ae's while the SK is playing with some adds w/ sacrement up the namer won't stick to the Sk with no means of riping it off. This has caused many Sk deaths and head aches for me. I also think the duration is a little to long when compared to reinforcement and holy ground but considering the mechanics of the proc I guess it's not that bad.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

04-29-2009, 02:59 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't forget Sacrament puts a debuff on the mob with roughly a 33% chance each time it takes damage to increase the SK's hate position by 1.Comes down to the SK doesn't even have to hit the mob again to maintain the top slot on the mob's aggro list once sacrament lands.</blockquote>Have you even read the Grave Sacrament spell? You keep talking like its when the mob gets hit that it procs a +1 Threat Position for the SK.. This is utterly false and I've tried to explain it in plain english many times already..<li>When target is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker. <ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 1 position</li></ul></li>Grave Sacrament is a PBAOE.. /starts to speak slowly.. Grave Sacrament is a Point Blank Area of Effect spell.. I can't cast it on a mob at range.. The 'Target' is the SK.. so when the "Target", ie. the SK, is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on the "Target's", again ie. the SK's, attacker..The SK does not control who he gains agro with like the paladin or guardian threat increase.. which procs off those classes hits.. the SK has to rely on GETTING hit by the mob to increase their threat position..I'm sure you understand the game dynamics well enough to see the not so subtle differences between GS and other threat procs.. And how those differences are not game imbalancing..</blockquote>Very correct, Malkave. All the SK has to do is STAND THERE for 20 seconds while an unlimited number of mobs continue to attack and continue to keep the SK at the top of each of their hate lists automatically while he does other things. Would you rather do that or play whack-a-mole with the tab key?

RafaelSmith

04-29-2009, 03:17 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't forget Sacrament puts a debuff on the mob with roughly a 33% chance each time it takes damage to increase the SK's hate position by 1.Comes down to the SK doesn't even have to hit the mob again to maintain the top slot on the mob's aggro list once sacrament lands.</blockquote>Have you even read the Grave Sacrament spell? You keep talking like its when the mob gets hit that it procs a +1 Threat Position for the SK.. This is utterly false and I've tried to explain it in plain english many times already..<li>When target is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker. <ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 1 position</li></ul></li>Grave Sacrament is a PBAOE.. /starts to speak slowly.. Grave Sacrament is a Point Blank Area of Effect spell.. I can't cast it on a mob at range.. The 'Target' is the SK.. so when the "Target", ie. the SK, is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on the "Target's", again ie. the SK's, attacker..The SK does not control who he gains agro with like the paladin or guardian threat increase.. which procs off those classes hits.. the SK has to rely on GETTING hit by the mob to increase their threat position..I'm sure you understand the game dynamics well enough to see the not so subtle differences between GS and other threat procs.. And how those differences are not game imbalancing..</blockquote>Interesting.......Im gonna have to talk to my SK friend cause if this is how GS actually works it would not explain the issues I have noticed.Like when we are taking on a named that has adds......the SK will be tasked to tank the adds while I am 'suppose' to keep the named busy........yet even after utilizing all my abilities, being the only one besides debuffers to attack the mob...the named will almost instantly snap to the SK that never directly targeted it.still....having a unlimited # of mobs with a 1/3 chance of keeping the SK a the top of the hate list is pretty nice.

Malkave

04-29-2009, 03:39 PM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Very correct, Malkave. All the SK has to do is STAND THERE for 20 seconds while an unlimited number of mobs continue to attack and continue to keep the SK at the top of each of their hate lists automatically while he does other things. Would you rather do that or play whack-a-mole with the tab key?</blockquote>Ok.. are we talking about Heroic or Raid encounters? In Heroic encounters where a Guardian is tanking and the SK is there just as DPS, WHY the [Removed for Content] would the SK use this as dps? They shouldn't, its not efficient enough dmg vs the obvious agro risk.. We have way too many other abilities that are more efficient DPS..In a Raid, the SK should only be using this when they are in charge of handling adds, and again its a PBAOE.. so when I use this on a raid the Guardian MT is positioning far enough away with the Named so as not to be affected by the single cast of GS on the adds.. Can you seriously be more upset over the change to Grave Sacrament than the obviously more over powered Holy Ground? Comparing the two honestly makes me laugh..To answer your specific question.. I would trade the 33% random chance to raise my threat by a mob attacking me for a guaranteed threat position increase.. you think that GS makes SK agro easy mode.. while GS is up i still have to worry about someone gaining agro and if they do I have to waste a different 'rescue' to get it back..I think what most people have an issue with isn't the SK class in its current form.. Rather the huge influx of new SK's, or SK alts that have no real 'training' on how to be a good SK.. A GOOD SK can take agro from the Guardian on the raid, but he WONT because he knows its not his job as long as the guardian is up.. a GOOD Paladin could do the same thing, and most don't, again cause they know their role as the the standard OT.. If these are the types of problems you are having with SK's in your Heroic groups or Raids, then your SK's need to be trained on how to play their class properly.. My guild doesn't have the greatest raid DPS but as an SK I can pull 5-7k in a 'not optimized' group and not pull agro from our Guardian who is parsing way lower than I am.."Edited out this paragraph cause it devolved into something that was not appropriate for this forum.."For now though, train your raids new SK if they need it or play an alt..

Malkave

04-29-2009, 03:51 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Interesting.......Im gonna have to talk to my SK friend cause if this is how GS actually works it would not explain the issues I have noticed.Like when we are taking on a named that has adds......the SK will be tasked to tank the adds while I am 'suppose' to keep the named busy........yet even after utilizing all my abilities, being the only one besides debuffers to attack the mob...the named will almost instantly snap to the SK that never directly targeted it.still....having a unlimited # of mobs with a 1/3 chance of keeping the SK a the top of the hate list is pretty nice.</blockquote>If your SK is tanking the adds near the Named that you are tanking and he is hit by the Named's AE then, yes there is a 33% chance that the proc will go off and the Named will switch to the SK.. If you are tanking a Named with an unavoidable AE then the SK should be made aware of this and told not to use GS.. SK have other tools that they can use to maintain agro with just a little more work..And again, I understand your arguement that GS is a one shot cast agro generator.. But your last sentence, "having a unlimited # of mobs with a 1/3 chance of keeping the SK a the top of the hate list is pretty nice." could easily be changed to "having a unlimited # of mobs with a 100% chance of keeping the Guard/Paladin the top of the hate list is pretty nice.".. Reinforcement and Holy Ground both proc 100% of the time the mob is hit by the Guardian or Paladin.. so timing your AE attacks to be spread over the duration of the spell turns each class into very capable AE tanks.. The only difference is that Grave Sacrament and Reinforcement are on 3min recast timers while Holy Ground is a 1min 30sec recast..

RafaelSmith

04-29-2009, 04:07 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Interesting.......Im gonna have to talk to my SK friend cause if this is how GS actually works it would not explain the issues I have noticed.Like when we are taking on a named that has adds......the SK will be tasked to tank the adds while I am 'suppose' to keep the named busy........yet even after utilizing all my abilities, being the only one besides debuffers to attack the mob...the named will almost instantly snap to the SK that never directly targeted it.still....having a unlimited # of mobs with a 1/3 chance of keeping the SK a the top of the hate list is pretty nice.</blockquote>If your SK is tanking the adds near the Named that you are tanking and he is hit by the Named's AE then, yes there is a 33% chance that the proc will go off and the Named will switch to the SK..And again, I understand your arguement that GS is a one shot cast agro generator.. But your last sentence, "having a unlimited # of mobs with a 1/3 chance of keeping the SK a the top of the hate list is pretty nice." could easily be changed to "having a unlimited # of mobs with a 100% chance of keeping the Guard/Paladin the top of the hate list is pretty nice.".. Reinforcement and Holy Ground both proc 100% of the time the mob is hit by the Guardian or Paladin.. so timing your AE attacks to be spread over the duration of the spell turns each class into very capable AE tanks.. The only difference is that Grave Sacrament and Reinforcement are on 3min recast timers while Holy Ground is a 1min 30sec recast..</blockquote>Like I said.......gonna have to talk to SK and do some testing because something is definately not adding up.Don't get me wrong.......I love Reinforcements but its not 100%....I actually have to hit said mob or mobs. I am still learning how to maximize using it along with my 2 blues. I dont use the green AE taunt/dmg because it such a long cast time that by the time it goes off much of the duration of Reinforcements has expired. I just hate feeling so in debt to one single ability to have any hope of keeping the mobs off the rest of the group. Lately if my group is facing a group of mobs and my Reinforcements and/or "blues" are on cooldown......i have to make the group wait until they are up because otherwise we will end up waiting for someone's rez effects to wear off. Waiting 2.5min can feel like an enternity in some of these instances.Yes ive speced into the AGI for Auto Attack AE chance but honestly i do not think it really helps that much...my autoattacks simply do not amount to much in terms of hate.I am the first to admit that my SK friend is a much better player, much more skilled at SK, better geared, more AA, yada yada but still it appears to me that even on single targets his aggro comes much easier and he has to wait alot less on specific abilities to be available.

Steve11418

04-29-2009, 08:09 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't forget Sacrament puts a debuff on the mob with roughly a 33% chance each time it takes damage to increase the SK's hate position by 1.Comes down to the SK doesn't even have to hit the mob again to maintain the top slot on the mob's aggro list once sacrament lands.</blockquote>Have you even read the Grave Sacrament spell? You keep talking like its when the mob gets hit that it procs a +1 Threat Position for the SK.. This is utterly false and I've tried to explain it in plain english many times already..<li>When target is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker. <ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 1 position</li></ul></li>Grave Sacrament is a PBAOE.. /starts to speak slowly.. Grave Sacrament is a Point Blank Area of Effect spell.. I can't cast it on a mob at range.. The 'Target' is the SK.. so when the "Target", ie. the SK, is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on the "Target's", again ie. the SK's, attacker..The SK does not control who he gains agro with like the paladin or guardian threat increase.. which procs off those classes hits.. the SK has to rely on GETTING hit by the mob to increase their threat position..I'm sure you understand the game dynamics well enough to see the not so subtle differences between GS and other threat procs.. And how those differences are not game imbalancing..</blockquote>This is wrong. I agree thats how it supposed to work (or how it reads).After much testing Atan is correct. Any time the mob is hitI can be holding the named with Holy Ground running 15m away from the SK (who is on adds) and he will get aggro on the Named. It does the whole SK/Pally/SK/Pally dance until Holy ground runs out... then go's for the SK. I wait until grave sacrement runs out.. rescure.. no problems from then on.

Arch

05-01-2009, 11:36 AM

I just wanted to know if the original poster was talking about Death March pulling agro even if the SK only used DM and nothing else. I'm sure you guys figured this out earlier I just don't have the time to read all the pages.

Yimway

05-01-2009, 04:24 PM

<cite>Steve11418 wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>This is wrong. I agree thats how it supposed to work (or how it reads).After much testing Atan is correct. Any time the mob is hitI can be holding the named with Holy Ground running 15m away from the SK (who is on adds) and he will get aggro on the Named. It does the whole SK/Pally/SK/Pally dance until Holy ground runs out... then go's for the SK. I wait until grave sacrement runs out.. rescure.. no problems from then on.</blockquote>Bingo!It pulls aggro on mobs well away from the sk. But given how many dot tick aoe's we have now, it may not be related to the ability on the sk or the target, regardless is is 100% constant aggro vs any challenge. Reinforcement is ineffective of in keeping any mob off an SK with sacrament running.I finally forced our SK to atleast put an /raidsay announcement on sacrament, and sure enough he's casting it at times he shouldn't be, just like the paladin screws up and casts holy ground at times he shouldn't be.By example though, we split PD and shade top and bottom of their hallway. The SK 40 meters away can cast sacrement and within seconds he has both mobs on him. Same behavior can be observed in ToMC and other split encounter fights.Sacrament is near undeniable sustained aggro for an SK. I've yet to witness a time it used that it did not achieve it.

Yimway

05-01-2009, 04:29 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't forget Sacrament puts a debuff on the mob with roughly a 33% chance each time it takes damage to increase the SK's hate position by 1.Comes down to the SK doesn't even have to hit the mob again to maintain the top slot on the mob's aggro list once sacrament lands.</blockquote>Have you even read the Grave Sacrament spell? You keep talking like its when the mob gets hit that it procs a +1 Threat Position for the SK.. This is utterly false and I've tried to explain it in plain english many times already..<li>When target is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker. <ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 1 position</li></ul></li>Grave Sacrament is a PBAOE.. /starts to speak slowly.. Grave Sacrament is a Point Blank Area of Effect spell.. I can't cast it on a mob at range.. The 'Target' is the SK.. so when the "Target", ie. the SK, is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on the "Target's", again ie. the SK's, attacker..The SK does not control who he gains agro with like the paladin or guardian threat increase.. which procs off those classes hits.. the SK has to rely on GETTING hit by the mob to increase their threat position..I'm sure you understand the game dynamics well enough to see the not so subtle differences between GS and other threat procs.. And how those differences are not game imbalancing..</blockquote>If target of sacrement was self, it would be a yellow icon. Just like our 'Hold the line' line of spells.PbAoE means, all targets in range of the SK.It places that ability on all mobs in range, each time they are hit there is a 33% chance of increasing hate position by 1.Examine the spell, does it say self or pbaoe?And here is the description Mr Smartypants.Effect Radius 25.0 meters Max Targets: All in RangeIncreases the hatred of the shadowknight to targets in the area of effect. In addition, when the target takes damage they will gain additional hatred for the shadowknight.Wish my AoE abilities were Max Targets: All in Range....

Beghauns

05-01-2009, 05:44 PM

I encountered what I'd assume was this buff last night doing vp. The sk would rip the trash sometimes, I'd use rescue get it back for a sec or less then lose it again, cast reinforcement and it ping ponged back and forth for the duration of reinforcement then went to the sk afterwards. Kinda sucked on Elder since he was doing adds and ripped the named

Landiin

05-01-2009, 06:38 PM

I don't even try to get it off our SK.. If he gets agro he has it till he or the mob dies or my normal DPS/taunts get it back. Granted this doesn't happen much as he is pretty competent but I can pretty much tell when he cast sacrament.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

05-01-2009, 07:18 PM

The core problem with Grave Sacrament seems to be the +1 positional stacked into an otherwise good spell, especially for an SK trying to fill an OT role. The pure taunts and hate from the disease component can be toned down when needed via hate gain reducers from other classes, but the positional component cannot be kept in check through any means. This seems to be limiting the usefulness of the spell in raids as seen in several posts on these boards.I think the SK's might like it better if the positional was split off into a separate combat art similar to Reinforcement, to allow them a bit more control. Or frankly it wouldn't harm anything to just discard the +1 completely, since nowadays even without casting GS the Shadowknight is an absolute hate factory.

Rahatmattata

05-02-2009, 02:40 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't get me wrong.......I love Reinforcements but its not 100%....I actually have to hit said mob or mobs. I am still learning how to maximize using it along with my 2 blues. I dont use the green AE taunt/dmg because it such a long cast time that by the time it goes off much of the duration of Reinforcements has expired. I just hate feeling so in debt to one single ability to have any hope of keeping the mobs off the rest of the group. Lately if my group is facing a group of mobs and my Reinforcements and/or "blues" are on cooldown......i have to make the group wait until they are up because otherwise we will end up waiting for someone's rez effects to wear off. Waiting 2.5min can feel like an enternity in some of these instances.</blockquote>BTW Immobilize procs reinforcement too, eventhough it doesn't actually do damage. Sometimes if I have to I'll use it to hit adds then cancel immediatly if I have to be able to move. And the 40% AE AA helps me quite a bit. Couple that with mutagenic burst and a dirge and you're g2g.

aislynn00

05-22-2009, 05:21 PM

1 - Grave Sacrament affects every single mob within 25m, which is anything but "point blank". 25m is, for instance, the max range of most heals--quite the area of effect.2 - Grave Sacrament gives the SK a 33% chance of gaining one position on the hate list every single time a mob affected by GS takes damage. No, it has nothing to do with the SK hitting the mobs or the mobs hitting the SK. There is a 33% chance every time anyone damages the mob. Anyone who claims otherwise than the above is simply spreading misinformation.Do test it out for yourselves: Group up with an SK, have him use GS, rescue the mob off him, then start spamming CA's. The mob will always snap back to him within seconds.On a raid, with 24 people casting spells, CA's, and auto-attacking, the mob invariably snaps back to the SK virtually instantaneously. Try Reinforcement, Rescue, and any other rescues you have: you won't ever hold aggro more than a split second while GS is running.And this affects every single mob within 25m. Talk about an ability veritably begging for a massive nerf.

aislynn00

05-22-2009, 05:31 PM

<cite>Malkave wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't forget Sacrament puts a debuff on the mob with roughly a 33% chance each time it takes damage to increase the SK's hate position by 1.Comes down to the SK doesn't even have to hit the mob again to maintain the top slot on the mob's aggro list once sacrament lands.</blockquote>Have you even read the Grave Sacrament spell? You keep talking like its when the mob gets hit that it procs a +1 Threat Position for the SK.. This is utterly false and I've tried to explain it in plain english many times already..<li>When target is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker. <ul><li>Increases threat priority of target by 1 position</li></ul></li>Grave Sacrament is a PBAOE.. /starts to speak slowly.. Grave Sacrament is a Point Blank Area of Effect spell.. I can't cast it on a mob at range.. The 'Target' is the SK.. so when the "Target", ie. the SK, is damaged this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on the "Target's", again ie. the SK's, attacker..</blockquote>So, you are saying that the highlit effect above only triggers when the SK is being struck.What, pray tell, does the +1 hate position effect really do, then? I mean, the SK must perforce already be first on the hate list, since he--according to your argument--has to be beaten on to trigger the effect.To be blunt, either you are just about the most assinine player I have come across (in which case you have my sincerest sympathies, but you really shouldn't be posting about [Removed for Content] you don't have the first clue about), or you are deliberately lying to make your own class look less overpowered than it actually is.To everyone trying to actually understand how things work, I invite you to test this out for yourselves. As a friendly SK to group up with you and duo an easy heroic. Have her use GS. Now use a rescue to get aggro (at which point GS allegedly can't trigger any longer, since the SK isn't being attacked by the mob), and start spamming your CA's. You will lose aggro within seconds. Rescue to regain it. You will lose it just as fast. Meanwhile, the SK is just standing still.

RafaelSmith

05-25-2009, 12:36 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>To everyone trying to actually understand how things work, I invite you to test this out for yourselves. As a friendly SK to group up with you and duo an easy heroic. Have her use GS. Now use a rescue to get aggro (at which point GS allegedly can't trigger any longer, since the SK isn't being attacked by the mob), and start spamming your CA's. You will lose aggro within seconds. Rescue to regain it. You will lose it just as fast. Meanwhile, the SK is just standing still.</blockquote>You are correct that is exactly how GS works. I group and raid with a SK alot and have proven that this is how GS works.

Bruener

05-25-2009, 06:50 PM

Yes that is how it works. And if you actually looked at it you would realize why it is even more situational than any other tank ability that increases hate positions. Grave Sacrament you better be ready to tank everything in the area because you are going to have it all. Tanking, if I try and use this tanking the Gynok adds I will pull Gynok as well and a good chance cause a raid wipe because of it.So the limitation with GS that SKs see is that it is situational and can not be directed like Holy Ground and reinforcement can. A Guard can easily pull a mob out of a group with reinforcement, same with Holy Ground. Furthermore Reinforcement and Holy Ground recasts are much shorter than Grave Sacrament...better for mobs that mem-wipe a lot. And lets not forget that Grave Sacrament has a 33% chance when a mob is damaged to jump a hate position...while Holy Ground jumps 24 hate positions when the Paladin damages a mob.As a SK there has been many of times where I would have loved to use GS to make sure a mob is glued to me but because of adds or named being tanked near by I could not pop it. Meanwhile, it is so [Removed for Content] easy for a Guard to target a mob and with reinforcement make sure he just peels that one mob that he needs.

Yimway

05-26-2009, 01:39 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a SK there has been many of times where I would have loved to use GS to make sure a mob is glued to me but because of adds or named being tanked near by I could not pop it. Meanwhile, it is so [Removed for Content] easy for a Guard to target a mob and with reinforcement make sure he just peels that one mob that he needs.</blockquote>Not if a crusader hits their crap at the same time, in which case HG and GS outlast the durration of reinforcement.I frequently raid Guard, Pal, SK on same raid, probably 80% of my reinforcement casts are inefectual cause someone casts HG or GS at nearly the same moment.I understand you want to view the ability as a blessing and a curse, however the benefits far outway any negative effect. Single button undeniable aggro on apparently unlimmitted number of mobs is just crazy OP.I agree with the OP though, give it to everyone or give it to no one.

Bruener

05-26-2009, 11:29 PM

Honestly you guys are amazing. Reinforcement + any AE attacks is going to do the same as GS, oh plus you can do it more often. Not only that but with reinforcement you can peel of singles out of a massive group no problem. You know something that is very good for a MT to do while his OT holds the rest of the "garbage".This whole pitty party for Guards is getting old. Guards still > all at MT. Still have fantastic ST agro control and unlike the other tanks don't have to do a larger amount of DPS to do it. And still take hits better than any other plate tank. But yeah, don't give up until you can reign supreme in all areas of tanking I guess.

CHIMPNOODLE.

05-27-2009, 09:47 AM

Well, the thread was originally about..."I want all of the other tank classes in the game to be given an "always-on area of effect taunt buff" just like the shadowknights have now."As it turns out, SKs do not have anything like that at all...so it appears that the cause of the original post comes down to either group makeups, diff skill/gear levels, or a particular SK using Grave Sacrament at innoportune times.GS is a great ability, no doubt...but only for 20 seconds every 2-3 average fights (3 minute recast, 105 power). If I'm raid MTing, I use it on fights that don't need an OT, or if the OT goes down (if the encounter is salvageable at that point). I also *might* use it on occasional random trash fights (as MT) if aggro starts getting ganked a little too often for whatever reason (but not if we are approaching a named, as the recast is long).If I'm not MT...I don't use it at all...unless the MT goes down (or I'm OT and we are split tanking mobs *very* far apart...25M+). I save it until/if its needed (since the recast is so long). Otherwise, it would be like hitting Sneering Assault whenever its up, just for the extra little bit of dammage, or an OT guard hitting reinforcements whenever its up...just because. Poor judgement imo.Same principle in instance groups.If tanking the group, I'd usually save it for stun/stifle encounters...or the biggest fights (named or large multi-mob). If not tanking, I wouldn't use it *at all*...unless the designated "MT" went down.Other fighters have similar abilities, on shorter timers (arguably less situational as well). Peel, Drag, Reinforcements, Holy ground, etc. They are more useful than each other at different times imo.

thial

05-27-2009, 01:01 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly you guys are amazing. Reinforcement + any AE attacks is going to do the same as GS, oh plus you can do it more often. Not only that but with reinforcement you can peel of singles out of a massive group no problem. You know something that is very good for a MT to do while his OT holds the rest of the "garbage".This whole pitty party for Guards is getting old. Guards still > all at MT. Still have fantastic ST agro control and unlike the other tanks don't have to do a larger amount of DPS to do it. And still take hits better than any other plate tank. But yeah, don't give up until you can reign supreme in all areas of tanking I guess.</blockquote>Reinforcement plus our 2 AE's and possibly 3 AE's if you choose it from the agi is no where near as affective as a 20 second agro magnet, you fail here. Also it is impossible to pull a mob with GS on it even with reinforcement up the mob will bounce back and forth until reinforcement runs out and GS still has 8 seconds left. What I find amazing is that some of the SK community just doesn’t get it. Ya’ll did get what you wanted you are the superior AoE tank above ALL and I don’t think anyone is calling for a nerf to that but we are asking that things be a little more balanced. I don’t care what anyone thinks I know Sk’s have superior AE and single target agro compared to guards but they can’t take the hits as well, I think they take the hits better than they should be considering the DPS/hate output but that’s just my opinion. The problem is most guards will cringe at the site of grouping with a warlock/conjy/illy and while I don’t want an ez mode solution I’d like to be able to go into an instance with knowing my AE’s with proper group setup will keep agro on a tamed AoE’er. Right now even if a lock, conjy or illy is tame and I get all my AoE stuff in its still dead squishy time but thats really not my problem it's by game design. And it’s funny that some of you claim guards want supremacy while y’all are really just crying because you want to keep yours. So in the end guards will always be number one for raids but we should not be left in the dark for heroic stuff.

Bruener

05-27-2009, 01:32 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly you guys are amazing. Reinforcement + any AE attacks is going to do the same as GS, oh plus you can do it more often. Not only that but with reinforcement you can peel of singles out of a massive group no problem. You know something that is very good for a MT to do while his OT holds the rest of the "garbage".This whole pitty party for Guards is getting old. Guards still > all at MT. Still have fantastic ST agro control and unlike the other tanks don't have to do a larger amount of DPS to do it. And still take hits better than any other plate tank. But yeah, don't give up until you can reign supreme in all areas of tanking I guess.</blockquote>Reinforcement plus our 2 AE's and possibly 3 AE's if you choose it from the agi is no where near as affective as a 20 second agro magnet, you fail here. Also it is impossible to pull a mob with GS on it even with reinforcement up the mob will bounce back and forth until reinforcement runs out and GS still has 8 seconds left. What I find amazing is that some of the SK community just doesn’t get it. Ya’ll did get what you wanted you are the superior AoE tank above ALL and I don’t think anyone is calling for a nerf to that but we are asking that things be a little more balanced. I don’t care what anyone thinks I know Sk’s have superior AE and single target agro compared to guards but they can’t take the hits as well, I think they take the hits better than they should be considering the DPS/hate output but that’s just my opinion. The problem is most guards will cringe at the site of grouping with a warlock/conjy/illy and while I don’t want an ez mode solution I’d like to be able to go into an instance with knowing my AE’s with proper group setup will keep agro on a tamed AoE’er. Right now even if a lock, conjy or illy is tame and I get all my AoE stuff in its still dead squishy time but thats really not my problem it's by game design. And it’s funny that some of you claim guards want supremacy while y’all are really just crying because you want to keep yours. So in the end guards will always be number one for raids but we should not be left in the dark for heroic stuff.</blockquote>I guess the fact that Guards can and do every single instance no problem in this expansion defeats your whole argument than. Not to mention the fact that half the content is still ST based, including most of the boss mobs in all of the zones. But hey we can play that game, give you guys more tools to handle heroic content and give the rest of the tanks the tools to handle all the raid content as well.The reason the rest of the plate tanks get disgusted with your envy posts is because Guards are sitting perfectly fine. The handle the hits the best. For progression Guards are almost always the MT that is going to get a guild through it, unless of course a situation arises where one of the other Plates in the guild out gears or just plain out plays the Guard. So, Guards have all the tools they need to control and handle their specialty...ST. That leaves 3 Plate tanks to fight for the OT spot, and in so doing need to have reasons to use them over simply a second Guard. Agro has to be much better AE and ST. DPS has to be much better since 90% of the time on a raid the OT is simply doing that....DPS'ing.Now you want more agro, specifically AE agro? Than of course we see the posts asking for increase to DPS since they are behind the other Plate tanks. This is all stuff you don't need, and anybody playing a Guard shoudl accept the fact they rolled a meat-shield machine....not necessarily and Agro magnet + DPS tank....no, a tank that can buckle down in defensively when it matters and make sure they stay alive while the group/raid does the rest.EDIT: Furthermore why is it you think that a Guard should be able to pull and hold adds through GS? Why is the SK around popping GS while you are reinforcing...who is supposed to be holding stuff? Work it out with your SK to make sure he isn't popping GS until you have the mob you are trying to hold more than 25m away from him. And in that case the SK needs the GS to hold all the adds while reinforcement with just single target attacks are more than enough to hold the Boss mob. Or is it an [Removed for Content] thing where you and your SK have to decide who can hold the most mobs the longest and therefore you get upset when reinforcement runs out 8 sec earlier....good news GS will take twice as long to refresh.

thial

05-27-2009, 04:50 PM

<blockquote>I guess the fact that Guards can and do every single instance no problem in this expansion defeats your whole argument than. Not to mention the fact that half the content is still ST based, including most of the boss mobs in all of the zones. But hey we can play that game, give you guys more tools to handle heroic content and give the rest of the tanks the tools to handle all the raid content as well.The reason the rest of the plate tanks get disgusted with your envy posts is because Guards are sitting perfectly fine. The handle the hits the best. For progression Guards are almost always the MT that is going to get a guild through it, unless of course a situation arises where one of the other Plates in the guild out gears or just plain out plays the Guard. So, Guards have all the tools they need to control and handle their specialty...ST. That leaves 3 Plate tanks to fight for the OT spot, and in so doing need to have reasons to use them over simply a second Guard. Agro has to be much better AE and ST. DPS has to be much better since 90% of the time on a raid the OT is simply doing that....DPS'ing. The problem is the ST vrs AoE is flawed which has been stated many times, sorry to say it again. Defensive vrs Offensive can be balanced out alot smoother. If SoE did not want guards to be able to hold some AoE agro than why give us two encounter based taunts and one blue aoe and AA's to boost these? Because we are supoosed to be able to hold moderate AoE agro. Not as good as a zerk or SK but enough to get the job done. Right now the gap between our aoe agro and say a Sk's is huge but the gap between our single target agro is minimal and still leans more towards the SK, so where is the ST specialty as you call it?? So we have better survivability great than my request is to make mobs hit harder... Guards should be able to hold aoe agro in a group setting but the zerk/sk should be able to do it better thus allowing the AoE DPS to do much more when said tank is tanking. Also prior to this expansion I was able to hold the few AoE encounters there where in rok much better than current. So yea I want to be able to do what I've always been able to do. In the past using our quick grp taunt and about 3 seconds later using the other slow casting one and squeezing ca's/taunts was enough to at least hold agro off a conjy but was still rough with locks, this is where the root, blue AoE and sentry played well. Even with AA's in these tools and a dirge it’s not enough, tab targeting is getting really old and annoying. Not looking to be better at aoe agro than an sk or zerk just the tools we have now are insufficient even with the few AA's we can put into them. This is the problem with you SK's chiming in on post about guards ya'll try and make it look like we are trying to be better when in reality I just want the tools already giving to guards to work better, at least that’s just me. Now you want more agro, specifically AE agro? Than of course we see the posts asking for increase to DPS since they are behind the other Plate tanks. This is all stuff you don't need, and anybody playing a Guard shoudl accept the fact they rolled a meat-shield machine....not necessarily and Agro magnet + DPS tank....no, a tank that can buckle down in defensively when it matters and make sure they stay alive while the group/raid does the rest.More agro yes more dps no I think one or two guards said something about DPS but the majority don't want/need dps.EDIT: Furthermore why is it you think that a Guard should be able to pull and hold adds through GS? Why is the SK around popping GS while you are reinforcing...who is supposed to be holding stuff? Work it out with your SK to make sure he isn't popping GS until you have the mob you are trying to hold more than 25m away from him. And in that case the SK needs the GS to hold all the adds while reinforcement with just single target attacks are more than enough to hold the Boss mob. Or is it an [Removed for Content] thing where you and your SK have to decide who can hold the most mobs the longest and therefore you get upset when reinforcement runs out 8 sec earlier....good news GS will take twice as long to refresh.I never said I was having issues with the SK in my guild he knows what to do. It has happened and we learned very quickly to deal with it. I stated that cause of your previous post you’re trying to make it sound like we can pull adds off of GS, maybe you didn't mean with GS up but it sure sounded like it.</blockquote>

Rahatmattata

05-27-2009, 07:45 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Gaurdians] Still have fantastic ST agro control and unlike the other tanks don't have to do a larger amount of DPS to do it.</blockquote>Lies.

Rahatmattata

05-27-2009, 07:47 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ya’ll did get what you wanted you are the superior AoE tank above ALL and I don’t think anyone is calling for a nerf to that but we are asking that things be a little more balanced.</blockquote>I am. Nerf shadowknights.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

05-28-2009, 12:51 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ya’ll did get what you wanted you are the superior AoE tank above ALL and I don’t think anyone is calling for a nerf to that but we are asking that things be a little more balanced.</blockquote>I am. Nerf shadowknights.</blockquote>You beat me to it, Rahatmattata. Bottom line is, if all tanks had the combination of tools SK's currently have (in the name of balance) then this would be one unrecoverably borked-up game. The only way back to balance is a nerf, and I do believe all eyes are on you, bruener and chimpnoodle. PS the shadowknight board is that way -->

Landiin

05-28-2009, 01:33 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly you guys are amazing. Reinforcement + any AE attacks is going to do the same as GS,</blockquote>Just goes to show how little you actully know about it...

CHIMPNOODLE.

05-28-2009, 10:47 AM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ya’ll did get what you wanted you are the superior AoE tank above ALL and I don’t think anyone is calling for a nerf to that but we are asking that things be a little more balanced.</blockquote>I am. Nerf shadowknights.</blockquote>You beat me to it, Rahatmattata. Bottom line is, if all tanks had the combination of tools SK's currently have (in the name of balance) then this would be one unrecoverably borked-up game. The only way back to balance is a nerf, and I do believe all eyes are on you, bruener and chimpnoodle. PS the shadowknight board is that way --></blockquote>Lol. I completely disagree, but hey, what can ya do? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Either way, I'm guild and raid leader (which is why I follow all the class forums) and we have an abundance of tanks (210 out of 1033 toons are tanks)...so I usually end up playing my cleric or bard for our raids (unfortunately, as I prefer tanking and my SK is still my "main"...in theory anyway lol). For my other raid group, I do still play my SK as primary though.Normally, we have an SK or Guard tanking...but if the mob is giving us a hard time or its a long protracted fight...its still the guard I choose, every time (even though he is a bit less geared). The refreshes on the guard's "big saves" alone make a noticeable difference, and his avoidance and crit mit are still higher than our SK's (even with the SKs slightly higher gear level).My other raid group used to use guard/SK(me)....then I cut my attendance a bit, and they now use a Pally/Zerk mainly (the Guard quit after having a baby in RL). It is also the warrior who steps in when things get tough.Anyway, my only contribution to this thread was to clear up a misconception about what an SK ability does, and how/when it is useful. It seems like many don't seem to realize exactly what GS does, and when it can and can't be used. There are pluses and minuses to the ability, and its actually most of the other abilities that are the core of the class.From most of the conversations I've had, its split about 50-50 on which ability people would rather have, Reinforcements or GS (Holy ground/Peel/Drag too, but this thread was mainly about guards/SKs). The biggest plus for R is the shorter recast and ability to focus on particular mobs without interferring with others, the biggest plus to GS is the range and quick/multiple position bumps. The biggest negative to R is the need to hit the mobs, the biggest negatives to GS are ironically...the range, but mainly the recast and the inability to focus on a particular mob.I can see where some would rather have an ability they can use more often during a fight (like reinforcements). On the other hand, GS lasts longer (20 secs...vs...13secs?). The amount of positions is not as important for an MT (since the MT rarely falls more than 1 to 3 spots at a time). It is nice for jumping back up the hate list also though...but that also means that you couldn't have cast it during the fight (maybe good for an OT that has trouble keeping his/her hate up enough to take over relatively quickly when needed?).Anyway, just some thoughts.

Yimway

05-28-2009, 12:56 PM

I've said it before in other threads, maybe even aluded to it in this one.I think either give all tanks a passive aoe threat ability or nerf GS. I personally prefer allowing all tanks to build AoE hate, but just differentiate them based upon aoe damage and power costs.One of the many issues with GS is its undeniable aggro of all mobs within 25 meters, that can be a single target, or it can be 40 mobs (as we proved last night). I'm not sure why anyone feels an undeniable, unlimited, 'I win aggro' button is a good thing.If we're not going to give aoe aggro control to all fighters, then I feel GS should be nerfed in one of 2 possible ways:Lose the hate position increase and replace it with straight +2000ish hate on 33% chance, orChange it to Max Targets of 4-6 with a range more realistic of 10-15 meters.

CHIMPNOODLE.

05-28-2009, 02:01 PM

I see them as separate things imo. Increasing Guardian/Monk/Brusier AOE aggro is one thing, and nerfing GS, HS, Dr or Peel is another. Modifying a 20 second ability every 3 minutes doesn't change much (except to maybe reduce the available useful tools for everyone). I don't see the benefit of that for anyone honestly, except maybe as a 1 extra/1 less perception thing. If those tools weren't available anymore, or weren't as strong...would it make AOE aggro any easier for any of the newly dubbed ST tanks? No...because there is no reason to use them in a way that interferes with MTs' aggro as is. If they are interfering, then someone needs to "have a talkin' to" imo. Its like the SK that accidentally FD's the MT during a fight, or a scout that evacs the MT group after a pull (nope, never seen either of those things happen *cough* lol).At best it would make AOE aggro easier for ST tanks for 20 seconds every 3 minutes (depending on any changes, if there were any, easier might still mean very tough...dunno...and that would be assuming the abilties were previously used by an oblivious/bad player every time they were up, just because they were up).If its more of a "I feel that plate tank ability is stronger than any our class has so it should be weakened...just because"...then its more about the balance of all abilities imo. I personally don't find guards have it that bad on balance, but I can understand asking for a boost to AOE aggro (I remember guard AOE aggro being pretty mediocre since KoS really...but given the lack of AOE content before TSO...it didn't come up much). I don't see the problem as being connected to any of the above abilities individually though.

aislynn00

05-29-2009, 10:00 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Gaurdians] Still have fantastic ST agro control and unlike the other tanks don't have to do a larger amount of DPS to do it.</blockquote>Lies.</blockquote>Indeed. I would very much like to know which ability it is that grants us "fantastic aggro control" that, for instance, shadowknights ostensibly don't enjoy.See, guardians do not have anything like Death March or berserk procs that generate "invisible" aggro on our behalf.As a matter of fact, more than any other fighter class, we do have to deal tremendous DPS in order to hold aggro.

Bruener

05-29-2009, 10:24 AM

I am sorry that most of you posting here just do not know how to play your Guardian. The fact is Guards still take hits better than any other tank. They still can control ST agro no problem, and can still spec to control AE agro.If you are asking for the same amount of hate that SKs get give it up. You do not deserve that kind of hate. You can not have the best of everything anymore. You get the best survivability with slightly less hate. Live with it. The rest of us live with slightly less survivability but make up with it in hate.Other than that I am really not sure why you guys see fit to complain. I know the fall from RoK was tough, but you are still hands down the ST tank of choice.

aislynn00

05-29-2009, 10:26 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite>The reason the rest of the plate tanks get disgusted with your envy posts is because Guards are sitting perfectly fine. The handle the hits the best. For progression Guards are almost always the MT that is going to get a guild through it, unless of course a situation arises where one of the other Plates in the guild out gears or just plain out plays the Guard. So, Guards have all the tools they need to control and handle their specialty...ST. That leaves 3 Plate tanks to fight for the OT spot, and in so doing need to have reasons to use them over simply a second Guard. Agro has to be much better AE and ST. DPS has to be much better since 90% of the time on a raid the OT is simply doing that....DPS'ing.</blockquote>All of the above is based on the assumption that guardians hold a major survivability advantage. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case since TSO went live.Our guild SK today tanks TSO raid mobs like Xebnok and Switchmaster, wearing a mix of RoK raid, TSO instance, and tier 3/4 TSO raid gear. In other words, he is sure as hell not overgeared for the content. And yet, he is in some cases actually the preferred MT over better geared guardians.Why? Because he holds aggro better than anyone (no contest, at all) and his survivability is so close to that of a well-played guardian that the difference in that regard is irrelevant.And when he isn't MT'ing, the role of off-tank (when only one is required) falls to him, too, for the same sound reasons.That, no matter what spin you put on things, is unbalanced.Shadowknights ought to have hands down the lowest survivability of the four plate tanks. They should not be able to tank raid mobs on par with a guardian while at the same time enjoying their tremendous aggro, utility, and DPS advantages.Oh, and what about berserkers? Isn't it odd that SK's outperform them in every single frigging aspect, from hate generation, over DPS, to survivability? But I guess you would argue that is balanced, too, right?For the record, while some classes do need a power boost (monks and guardians come to mind), most balancing issues within the fighter archetype could be rectified quite simply:Nerf shadowknight survivability.

thial

05-29-2009, 11:10 AM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite>The reason the rest of the plate tanks get disgusted with your envy posts is because Guards are sitting perfectly fine. The handle the hits the best. For progression Guards are almost always the MT that is going to get a guild through it, unless of course a situation arises where one of the other Plates in the guild out gears or just plain out plays the Guard. So, Guards have all the tools they need to control and handle their specialty...ST. That leaves 3 Plate tanks to fight for the OT spot, and in so doing need to have reasons to use them over simply a second Guard. Agro has to be much better AE and ST. DPS has to be much better since 90% of the time on a raid the OT is simply doing that....DPS'ing.</blockquote>All of the above is based on the assumption that guardians hold a major survivability advantage. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case since TSO went live.Our guild SK today tanks TSO raid mobs like Xebnok and Switchmaster, wearing a mix of RoK raid, TSO instance, and tier 3/4 TSO raid gear. In other words, he is sure as hell not overgeared for the content. And yet, he is in some cases actually the preferred MT over better geared guardians.Why? Because he holds aggro better than anyone (no contest, at all) and his survivability is so close to that of a well-played guardian that the difference in that regard is irrelevant.And when he isn't MT'ing, the role of off-tank (when only one is required) falls to him, too, for the same sound reasons.That, no matter what spin you put on things, is unbalanced.Shadowknights ought to have hands down the lowest survivability of the four plate tanks. They should not be able to tank raid mobs on par with a guardian while at the same time enjoying their tremendous aggro, utility, and DPS advantages.Oh, and what about berserkers? Isn't it odd that SK's outperform them in every single frigging aspect, from hate generation, over DPS, to survivability? But I guess you would argue that is balanced, too, right?For the record, while some classes do need a power boost (monks and guardians come to mind), most balancing issues within the fighter archetype could be rectified quite simply:Nerf shadowknight survivability.</blockquote>I didn't say that! lol In cleaing up my quote i guess I cleared the name of the person who said that...just wanted to get that out there..

Bruener

05-29-2009, 11:48 AM

Well sounds like you guys have a great SK or a sucky Guard. Either way of course the better player is going to tank for the raid if the Guard can't do the job. Here is the difference though, it is the player not the class. SK survivability is not as good as Guards, and if you actually tried raiding some mobs that were tough and used either as a MT that knew how to play their class you would see this.Guards have more survivability tools with faster refresh timers to make sure that they can absorb more damage with less spikes.Now, thats not to say that other "plates" can't step in. Especially if they are better players and more importantly if they have the Guard out geared. I raid in a guild that is currently working on Ykesha. We use the Guard for 90% of the MT'ing in the raids. The other night I stepped in and MT'd Field General because I can snap up all the adds and tank em all and by the time you get the adds down Field General hits like a wuss. Here is the thing though, I also have the Guard out geared. And yet it is very noticeable on the amount of damage he can absorb on mobs that hit hard, and how it is easier for him to hold constant agro on mobs with large damage shields while taking less damage. Yes my agro is greater than his...but I am sorry Guards can and do absorb a lot more damage.So imagine that. Progression wise Guards are still the MT of choice. Guards still get geared first to make sure they are the ones pushing progression. OH YEAH!!! On easy mobs or mobs that have become farm status other plate tanks might be preferred because they can hold agro better. Never mind the fact that Guards have no problem holding ST agro against raids doing 200k+ DPS.L2P.

Rahatmattata

05-29-2009, 12:28 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Other than that I am really not sure why you guys see fit to complain.This is a message board for discussing the guardian class. If you don't like it leave.</blockquote>

thial

05-29-2009, 12:42 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am sorry that most of you posting here just do not know how to play your Guardian. The fact is Guards still take hits better than any other tank. They still can control ST agro no problem, and can still spec to control AE agro.If you are asking for the same amount of hate that SKs get give it up. You do not deserve that kind of hate. You can not have the best of everything anymore. You get the best survivability with slightly less hate. Live with it. The rest of us live with slightly less survivability but make up with it in hate.Other than that I am really not sure why you guys see fit to complain. I know the fall from RoK was tough, but you are still hands down the ST tank of choice.</blockquote>Don't even go there with the L2P thing. There is a clear imbalance stop denying it and stop trying to make it sound like everything is peachy. We all play this game for fun and if there is an issue that is affecting game play it will be brought up and left up to the devs to address and I think it's our responsibility to make sure the devs don't forget about it. With every post you make it shows just how much you really don’t know, go role a guard get to 80 grind the AA’s spec for all the “AoE” stuff get some shards and then when you finely see that the tools giving are not adequate enough than maybe you can chim in with some facts instead of stipulations. Guards are supposed to have moderate AE agro control. Your comments make it sound like we are not supposed to have any. And than you say “You get the best survivability with slightly less hate.” This should read “You get the best survivability with immensely less hate” Guards would need a boost in hate to be slightly less. On a scale of 1 – 10 sk’s get a 10 for aoe agro and guards get a 1 where as guards get a 10 for defense and sk’s get a 5 for survivability. The 1 has to be pushed up to a 5 to make it slightly less hate, this would require a little boost. Granted these are my own stipulations that which I base my opinion from watching and analyzing parses from when my guilds SK has tanked.

Bruener

05-29-2009, 02:00 PM

Oh, my bad guys. I guess you are right.Guards are broken. They have it so bad in TSO. Sorry, hopefully you guys can get all these supposed "fixes" you need so that you can dominate the entire tank field again.Good luck!!!

Rahatmattata

05-30-2009, 04:50 AM

Not sure what you're talking about. Zerkers and paladins have always been better heroic main tanks and raid off tanks, and shadowknights have always been better tanks in PvP. Hardly dominating "the entire tank field."Not to mention every other fighter class in the game solos easier/faster/better but that doesn't really have anything to do with tanking.

Bruener

05-30-2009, 10:24 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure what you're talking about. Zerkers and paladins have always been better heroic main tanks and raid off tanks ----- WRONG, and shadowknights have always been better tanks in PvP.----THIS IS A PVE GAME Hardly dominating "the entire tank field."----FUNNY CAUSE OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN ALL ABOUT ROKNot to mention every other fighter class in the game solos easier/faster/better but that doesn't really have anything to do with tanking.-----EQ2 SOLO GAME "USED" TO MATTER...NOW SOLO'ING TO CAP IS A CAKE WALK.</blockquote>/thumbs

thial

05-30-2009, 11:32 AM

I always found grouping with my pally a lot more enjoyable even though his gear is much worse than my guards simply because holding agro on a pally takes much less effort compared to the guard and when it comes to heroic crap the survivability difference really doesn't matter. So for raids guard have and always will dominate but for heroic content I beg to differ even in t5 t6 t7 pallys have been uber.

Bruener

05-30-2009, 11:54 AM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I always found grouping with my pally a lot more enjoyable even though his gear is much worse than my guards simply because holding agro on a pally takes much less effort compared to the guard and when it comes to heroic crap the survivability difference really doesn't matter.</blockquote>Except when an expansion comes out and you are progressing through new heroic content. Unless of course you are a raid geared player at which point heroic content is more trivialized right off the bat. But for non-raiding tanks doing new heroic content survivability is very important until the content is trivialized.Example being I remember Maidens in RoK, where it was much easier to bring a Guard or even a Zerker through there when it first came out than it was for Crusaders. And than of course it was easier to "solo" heal a Warrior first.The same holds true for going through TSO. The harder zones like Palace a Guard takes the hits better, and its not like there are huge amounts of group mobs (>3) in there...not to mention that a Guard can interrupt Varsoons casting unlike the other tanks.Than there is the entire raiding atmosphere. Where 90+% of the content, especially named mobs, are still ST. The type of content that Guards hold the edge on, and are why they are still the preferred MT of choice. And I don't buy the stupid well Guards from those guilds were already geared...guess what so were the rest of their tanks by the time TSO launched. Not to mention that everything basically started with a clean slate with the introduction of Crit Mit, meaning all gear was soon replaced by at least shard gear plus the easily attained T4 gear.

RafaelSmith

05-30-2009, 01:16 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well sounds like you guys have a great SK or a sucky Guard. Either way of course the better player is going to tank for the raid if the Guard can't do the job. Here is the difference though, it is the player not the class. SK survivability is not as good as Guards, and if you actually tried raiding some mobs that were tough and used either as a MT that knew how to play their class you would see this.Guards have more survivability tools with faster refresh timers to make sure that they can absorb more damage with less spikes.Now, thats not to say that other "plates" can't step in. Especially if they are better players and more importantly if they have the Guard out geared. I raid in a guild that is currently working on Ykesha. We use the Guard for 90% of the MT'ing in the raids. The other night I stepped in and MT'd Field General because I can snap up all the adds and tank em all and by the time you get the adds down Field General hits like a wuss. Here is the thing though, I also have the Guard out geared. And yet it is very noticeable on the amount of damage he can absorb on mobs that hit hard, and how it is easier for him to hold constant agro on mobs with large damage shields while taking less damage. Yes my agro is greater than his...but I am sorry Guards can and do absorb a lot more damage.So imagine that. Progression wise Guards are still the MT of choice. Guards still get geared first to make sure they are the ones pushing progression. OH YEAH!!! On easy mobs or mobs that have become farm status other plate tanks might be preferred because they can hold agro better. Never mind the fact that Guards have no problem holding ST agro against raids doing 200k+ DPS.L2P.</blockquote>Oh give me a break. You cannot seriously believe that SK surviveability is so much less than a Guards to warrant the crazy DPS SKs get and the insane aggro they get.Right now you guys have it all too well...DPS, aggro and surviveability. Something has to give.

thial

05-30-2009, 01:40 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I always found grouping with my pally a lot more enjoyable even though his gear is much worse than my guards simply because holding agro on a pally takes much less effort compared to the guard and when it comes to heroic crap the survivability difference really doesn't matter.</blockquote>Except when an expansion comes out and you are progressing through new heroic content. Unless of course you are a raid geared player at which point heroic content is more trivialized right off the bat. But for non-raiding tanks doing new heroic content survivability is very important until the content is trivialized.Example being I remember Maidens in RoK, where it was much easier to bring a Guard or even a Zerker through there when it first came out than it was for Crusaders. And than of course it was easier to "solo" heal a Warrior first.The same holds true for going through TSO. The harder zones like Palace a Guard takes the hits better, and its not like there are huge amounts of group mobs (>3) in there...not to mention that a Guard can interrupt Varsoons casting unlike the other tanks.Than there is the entire raiding atmosphere. Where 90+% of the content, especially named mobs, are still ST. The type of content that Guards hold the edge on, and are why they are still the preferred MT of choice. And I don't buy the stupid well Guards from those guilds were already geared...guess what so were the rest of their tanks by the time TSO launched. Not to mention that everything basically started with a clean slate with the introduction of Crit Mit, meaning all gear was soon replaced by at least shard gear plus the easily attained T4 gear.</blockquote>It's called progression you do easier zones till yo can handle the harder stuff there is plenty of loot to be had from heroic instances plus shards. During RoK yes it was rough on SK's not so much towards pallys. My pally gets NO raid loot. Guards aren't the only tank that can interupt and I wouldn't say 90% you ever been in totmc or ykesha?lol...Really man I understand that at one point your class sucked but now that its a great class to play you don't wan't anyone to be better than you I understand that but you really gota get off your high horse.

Rahatmattata

05-30-2009, 02:22 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> </cite><blockquote>THIS IS A PVE GAMESomeone should let the devs know so they stop developing & supporting PvP content then.Hardly dominating "the entire tank field."----FUNNY CAUSE OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN ALL ABOUT ROKUm, zerkers and pallys were still better to take than a guard to instances/dungeons in RoK.</blockquote></blockquote>

Bruener

05-30-2009, 03:12 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I always found grouping with my pally a lot more enjoyable even though his gear is much worse than my guards simply because holding agro on a pally takes much less effort compared to the guard and when it comes to heroic crap the survivability difference really doesn't matter.</blockquote>Except when an expansion comes out and you are progressing through new heroic content. Unless of course you are a raid geared player at which point heroic content is more trivialized right off the bat. But for non-raiding tanks doing new heroic content survivability is very important until the content is trivialized.Example being I remember Maidens in RoK, where it was much easier to bring a Guard or even a Zerker through there when it first came out than it was for Crusaders. And than of course it was easier to "solo" heal a Warrior first.The same holds true for going through TSO. The harder zones like Palace a Guard takes the hits better, and its not like there are huge amounts of group mobs (>3) in there...not to mention that a Guard can interrupt Varsoons casting unlike the other tanks.Than there is the entire raiding atmosphere. Where 90+% of the content, especially named mobs, are still ST. The type of content that Guards hold the edge on, and are why they are still the preferred MT of choice. And I don't buy the stupid well Guards from those guilds were already geared...guess what so were the rest of their tanks by the time TSO launched. Not to mention that everything basically started with a clean slate with the introduction of Crit Mit, meaning all gear was soon replaced by at least shard gear plus the easily attained T4 gear.</blockquote>It's called progression you do easier zones till yo can handle the harder stuff there is plenty of loot to be had from heroic instances plus shards. During RoK yes it was rough on SK's not so much towards pallys. My pally gets NO raid loot. Guards aren't the only tank that can interupt and I wouldn't say 90% you ever been in totmc or ykesha?lol...Really man I understand that at one point your class sucked but now that its a great class to play you don't wan't anyone to be better than you I understand that but you really gota get off your high horse.</blockquote>Its called progression and Guards still make it easier. Sorry that for some reason a couple of you seem to have the blinders on.So yeah lets look at TotMC and Ykesha.....hmmmmTomb: First named, 3 mob encounter 1 BOSS mob and 2 little trash mobs Second named, 3 mob encounter 1 BOSS mob and 2 little trash mobs Third named, 1 BOSS mob Fourth named, 1 BOSS mob Fifth named, 5 group encounter that has 1 BOSS mob that has to be tanked from the rest of the 4 mobs.Ykesha: First named, 1 BOSS mob Second named, 1 BOSS mob with easy 6 trash mobs being OT'd Third named, 1 BOSS mob with easy heroic adds Fourth named, 1 large encounter that can be tanked all at once or have BOSS mob tanked seperate from the rest of the encounter. Fifth named, 1 BOSS mob with adds OT'dPalace: First named, 2 mobs 1 tanked at a time Second named, 1 BOSS mob Third named, 1 BOSS mob Fourth named, 1 BOSS mob with little x2 adds Fifth named, 1 BOSS mob with x2's being OT'd Sixth named, 1 BOSS mob Seventh named, 1 BOSS mob with x2 adds being OT'dWow, I guess out of the original raid scene for TSO I see 17 named encounters. All of which have 1 major mob that is MT'd while some have easier mobs OT'd. 1 encounter maybe being the exception at the start with the Field General fight a MT with great AE agro can tank them all at once. 16/17 equals 94%. Wanna try again?

Xalmat

05-30-2009, 03:42 PM

You forgot that Xebnok requires multiple tanks as well as an AE tank for the adds (usually). And you don't have to tank Gynok adds separately from Gynok himself if you don't want to. But otherwise good list, and yeah Guardians are still excellent MTs this expansion.Still I'm all for Guardians getting better AE aggro control.

thial

05-30-2009, 05:42 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its called progression and Guards still make it easier. Sorry that for some reason a couple of you seem to have the blinders on.So yeah lets look at TotMC and Ykesha.....hmmmmTomb: First named, 3 mob encounter 1 BOSS mob and 2 little trash mobs Second named, 3 mob encounter 1 BOSS mob and 2 little trash mobs Third named, 1 BOSS mob Fourth named, 1 BOSS mob Fifth named, 5 group encounter that has 1 BOSS mob that has to be tanked from the rest of the 4 mobs.Ykesha: First named, 1 BOSS mob Second named, 1 BOSS mob with easy 6 trash mobs being OT'd Third named, 1 BOSS mob with easy heroic adds Fourth named, 1 large encounter that can be tanked all at once or have BOSS mob tanked seperate from the rest of the encounter. Fifth named, 1 BOSS mob with adds OT'dPalace: First named, 2 mobs 1 tanked at a time Second named, 1 BOSS mob Third named, 1 BOSS mob Fourth named, 1 BOSS mob with little x2 adds Fifth named, 1 BOSS mob with x2's being OT'd Sixth named, 1 BOSS mob Seventh named, 1 BOSS mob with x2 adds being OT'dWow, I guess out of the original raid scene for TSO I see 17 named encounters. All of which have 1 major mob that is MT'd while some have easier mobs OT'd. 1 encounter maybe being the exception at the start with the Field General fight a MT with great AE agro can tank them all at once. 16/17 equals 94%. Wanna try again?</blockquote> regardless of how easy the adds may be its still AoE content, and I'm not going to correct any of the obvious mistakes you made in your description you failed to mention any of the adds that spawn during some of those encounters which one being 4-6 adds spawn and regardless how easy they may be to tank or number of adds they will more than likely squish healers/dps if not put on a tank... So yes for raid progression guards are easier but for heroic progression no they are not. I still have not seen anything come from you that says why we should not get a minor boost in aoe control to make our heroic grouping a tad less annoying and a little more reliable SK pally zerk would all still own us on AE agro especially with out of encounter mobs. It won't affect anyones standings in raids. Just help guards with heroic stuff...Anyway regardless of your next comment I'm going to just ignore it, and continue in the direction I wish to go. I'm really about to join the nerf SK band wagon but I have to remember some Sk's are kool and actually understand this game.