Fighter changes for monks

[MadBarman]

<p>As SOE are going to restart the fighter revamp and alegedly talk to us about what we want I thought it might be good to start discussing amongst ourselves what we think needs changing for our class. I'm sure we wont agree on everything but we should be able to get some solid ideas between us.</p><p>Some ideas:</p><p>The 4 plate tanks each get a self buff, group buff and raid buff. Brawlers only get a self and raid buff. I would like to see both brawlers being given a group buff of some kind to offer more utillity. Iirc guardians have + melee skills, berserkers have their group beserk, pallys a damage/stun proc, sks a lifetap proc. Monks could have a group buff to melee weapon damage.</p><p>The brawler tree of achievements: Brawlers need to be given the same amount of double attack, aoe autoattack and melee crit as other fighters. The previous reason of crane flock being too powerful for us to have that is simply a load of rubbish.</p><p>Crane flock: As an end line ability this is mediocre. It is useful as a burst ae agro tool but not very effective. If the wisdom line is meant to be our AE line please change or improve this ability. E.g. Crane Stance - Gives dragon rage/roughhouse a 10% chance to effect multiple targets around the brawler.</p><p>Eagle Shriek: This end line ability flat out sucks. No brawler wants to be below 30% health for any amount of time, the increase in melee crit is largely wasted and the incresae in mit is almost usless due to diminishing returns. A couple of ideas for this. A PBAoE damage/taunt or some kind of 1 hit stoneskin should the brawler fall below 30% HP (only triggers once every 30secs or so)</p><p>Monk achievement tree:</p><p>Give monks a 4th end ability.</p><p>Combination: Increase the damage and/or make it easier to use. E.g Make it a short term buff (10 seconds) each successful CA increases the combination counter by 1 (max 5). On termination inflicts 600-900 damage per counter to target. Recast 1 min.</p><p>Evade check: The detaunt amount needs to increase or add in a hate position drop too.</p><p>TSO tree: First of all there needs to be a true dps spec possible.</p><p>Sneering assault (fighter) needs a much better hit rate or make it unable to be blocked, parried, deflected or riposted.</p><p>Thunderous Strike (brawler) The actual increase in dps is very small, change to increase number of procs by 1 per rank. 5th rank makes this ability group wide.</p><p>Deflecting Blow (brawler) 5 points for 6% more of our current deflection chance (average what 2%?) not that great.  Change this for some kind of DPS achievement.</p><p>Peaceful deception (monk) as long as the increase to taunt values goes through this achievement is really a waste. As brawlers get our mythical effect as an achievement (incrase mit of armour to rival that of chain) I think we should get thier effect (5 ranks = 10% damage reduction)</p><p>Focused Followup (monk) this is good but the extra attack needs to do more damage and not take the damage given by +ca stat.</p><p>Mediatative Healing (monk) The improvement on test ot make it heal 40% at rank 5 was good. However for a group tank this ability really didnt get much, if any, use. If possible I'd liek to see this scale depending on what type of mob you are fighting. E.g. raid - 40% HP trigger, 40% heal, heroic - 30% hp trigger, 15% heal, solo 10% hp trigger, 2% heal. I jsut made those numbers up, feel free to work out what would be better.</p><p>Thats all I can think of right now. Post your ideas and tell me mine suck (but politly) <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[kodomo sunsoar]

<p>I am not a raid monk or have my mythical yet so I don't have issues that some people may have as I generally just group inside guild or the occasional PUG.</p><p>I do however agree that there needs to be a clear DPS line in the TSO tree.  I have focused on DPS (well tried to) and really I am having a lot of trouble trying to determine where to put my AA points in the TSO tree.  As you mentioned Thunderous Strikes hardly seems worthhile and apart from our raid wide buff which I put 5 points into already there really isn't a lot left there for a DPS monk.</p><p>I haven't even spent the points to get combo as really it is a ridiculous end ability needing to use 3 diff attacks in a row before it is used.  Maybe some people have worked this out using a macro but I haven't done that and had tried to spend points elsewhere.  Another end ability would possibly be useful depending on what it is.</p><p>That's all I have to say for now.</p>

[Raznor2]

<p>First of all, the brawler classes need to be pushed in one direction.  I've read from a number of players who say that they like the hybred role of doing good damage for a tank and being able to tank in a pinch.  However, if you put a class in that role where they do two things moderately well, they will never have a signifigant role in groups or raids.  No group or raid cares that the tank does more single target damage than the other tank classes if they can't take the hits and no group or raid cares if their dps can be a second tank when other classes can bring more damage.  You hang the brawler classes making them hybred.  </p><p>A move to being a pure dps class is unlikely.  Our defensive numbers, taunts, ca's, auto attack and gear would all have to be over hauled across 80 levels.  Not to mention some people do want their brawlers to be tanks and would not care for a complete revision into a different role.</p><p>So, this leaves making brawlers better tanks as the best option.  Brawlers have the potential to be not only great tanks but highy unique and able to fill tanking roles in raid encounters geared for avoidance.  What brawlers need are:  1.  A sizable advantage in uncontested avoidance 2.  A sizable advantage in normal avoidance and 3.  skills that allow them to boost their mitigation high in short bursts (which monks have) and to absorb or reduce the damage from large damage spikes.</p><p>The first would give us a raid role as tanks for encounters that need to be handled with avoidance.  For example, say there was an encounter where the mob ignored mitigation.  In a fight like that avoidance would be put at a premium, that's where the brawler would come in to tank.</p><p>The second item there addresses a current issue:  Plate tanks are closing the gap on avoidance.  Either brawlers need better ways to raise their own mitigation or plate tanks need their avoidance adjusted down to maintain a balance.  </p><p>The third point here we're starting to see addressed.  Meditative healing would have been a fantastic change until the fighter revamp got scraped.  But we need other abilities like this.  Like a 4th endline ability added to the monk tree that avoids x amount of hits or takes a percentage of damage off of damage for x amount of time.  Even if avoidance is made as a viable way to tank, a bad string of hits is more likely to drop a brawler than a plate tank.  By giving brawlers skills to deal with big hits our tanking becomes avoidance plus smart use of tanking abilities to counter spike damage.</p><p>The key to all of this is avoidance.  If avoidance, both contested and uncontested, works well then brawlers can be comparable tanks to any plate class and have a role, as a tank, on raids.</p><p>~Raithan</p><p>   </p><p>   </p><p>     </p>

[githyanki]

<p><cite>Raznor269 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First of all, the brawler classes need to be pushed in one direction.  I've read from a number of players who say that they like the hybred role of doing good damage for a tank and being able to tank in a pinch.  However, if you put a class in that role where they do two things moderately well, they will never have a signifigant role in groups or raids.  No group or raid cares that the tank does more single target damage than the other tank classes if they can't take the hits and no group or raid cares if their dps can be a second tank when other classes can bring more damage.  You hang the brawler classes making them hybred.  </p><p>A move to being a pure dps class is unlikely.  Our defensive numbers, taunts, ca's, auto attack and gear would all have to be over hauled across 80 levels.  Not to mention some people do want their brawlers to be tanks and would not care for a complete revision into a different role.</p><p>So, this leaves making brawlers better tanks as the best option.  Brawlers have the potential to be not only great tanks but highy unique and able to fill tanking roles in raid encounters geared for avoidance.  What brawlers need are:  1.  A sizable advantage in uncontested avoidance 2.  A sizable advantage in normal avoidance and 3.  skills that allow them to boost their mitigation high in short bursts (which monks have) and to absorb or reduce the damage from large damage spikes.</p><p>The first would give us a raid role as tanks for encounters that need to be handled with avoidance.  For example, say there was an encounter where the mob ignored mitigation.  In a fight like that avoidance would be put at a premium, that's where the brawler would come in to tank.</p><p>The second item there addresses a current issue:  Plate tanks are closing the gap on avoidance.  Either brawlers need better ways to raise their own mitigation or plate tanks need their avoidance adjusted down to maintain a balance.  </p><p>The third point here we're starting to see addressed.  Meditative healing would have been a fantastic change until the fighter revamp got scraped.  But we need other abilities like this.  Like a 4th endline ability added to the monk tree that avoids x amount of hits or takes a percentage of damage off of damage for x amount of time.  Even if avoidance is made as a viable way to tank, a bad string of hits is more likely to drop a brawler than a plate tank.  By giving brawlers skills to deal with big hits our tanking becomes avoidance plus smart use of tanking abilities to counter spike damage.</p><p>The key to all of this is avoidance.  If avoidance, both contested and uncontested, works well then brawlers can be comparable tanks to any plate class and have a role, as a tank, on raids.</p><p>~Raithan</p><p>   </p><p>   </p><p>     </p></blockquote><p>Well let me say a few things here.    Monks are ok as off tanks in raids atm given enough time to get gear crit mit and the other goodies that come with raiding.   Outside of raid equiped  monks I understand that monks are gonna be stuck with a dps role or maybe given a very good groupsetup a chance at tanking some of the middle to harder instances from tso.    The messed up thing is that without the mythical....which is for raiding...its very hard to understand the lack of balance to plate tanks in the tanking department. </p><p>What was supposed to be addressed with the fighter changes was finally a valid attempt by soe...outside of some of the lefthanded buffs( read nerfs)...to make monks ok and i do mean just ok at holding hate against an equally geared dps class without the need for dirge/coercer massive hate transfer.   Some of the things you talk about are already available as short term buffs or emergency abilities that monks can get thru gear/aa's or ca's.  </p><p>Let me give you a better idea here.   We have tsunami for melee our root stance and mountain stance line for straight mitigation boost.    Which btw with a temp and dirge properly buffing me i have over 9400 miti.    Also we have a one shot riposti with superior riposti...good vs one melee hit or class spell....and if you have somone running timers thru act you can get quite good at certain encounters at hitting this ability at the right time.   Imo one of our best abilties for oh my god i'm gonna die time is our absorb two hits over 40 percent of your total health pool.   Oh yeah dont forget the biggest targetable heal in the game outside of the new healer sacrifice health spell.    Not to mention our self magic damage ward and our self cure ability thru stifles stuns and fear effects.   All of this i tell my guild falls under the umbrella of monk tricks.    When things go south it all depends on how deeply I get to dip into my bag of goodies. </p><p>So like i said things do become a little more balanced for monks with the mythical and raid gear as long as you choose carefully.   And the mythical is basically for raiding toons regardless of class. </p><p>Now the thing that does bug me about this game is that unless you raid or have raided in the past your class is not balanced vs other toons of the same kind of gear.   Take a knight class with t2 shard gear fabled epic and adept 3 spells and say 150 aa's.    Maybe this guy has gotten lucky and has ok avoid for the moment say 60ish percent and one of the really decent shield block 3 shields that drop like candy in tso.  So your looking at a 5k miti without buffs decent avoid ok survivability.   Compare that with a monk same kinda gear lvl.   So 3k plus miti low 70ish avoid and 3/4 of the uncontested avoidance because he never got his master defensive.  So even hp's maybe in the neighborhood of11.5k without healer buffs sounds ok on paper right?    Go play it and tell me if you see something skewed here. </p>

[Achala]

<p>One of the problems with this game is that while you can stack DPS (more DPSers = more damage) and you can stack healers (extra healers means you can heal more damage, faster).  But two tanks don't really absorb twice the damage of one tank.  So most instances people take two healers, three DPS, and there's only a need for one and only one tank.</p><p>My main wish for a figher change (which I posted elsewhere is this) for multiple tanks to be able to work together to take damage.   And since brawlers are rarely desired as the main tank, this "secondary damage taker" role would become one of their principal roles.  Plate tanks would then be divided between single target tanks and AOE tanks, and brawlers would augment the plate tank.</p><p>Make it so having additional fighters (particularly the less desired fighters, such as brawlers) will reduce the total amount of damage taken by the main tank.<span ><p>What I'm picturing: the brawler stands within 5 feet of the main tank.  If the plate tank gets hit, the brawler has an ability (preferably using concentration slots) that reduces the damage that the plate tank takes.  Perhaps they only take 55% of the normal damage.  Instead, that 55% is now directed at the monk.  However, the monk gets an avoidance roll on that portion of the damage, which means that over time, and with sufficiently high avoidance, the monk would effectively almost almost halve the total amount of damage taken.  (The numbers aren't significant, obviously this would need to be balanced.)</p><p>In theory, if you were putting a party together to go into a particularly difficult dungeon, that previously you would only take on with two healers, now you would have a choice: grab a second healer (to help heal the damage taken faster) OR grab a brawler (to reduce the damage the plate tank will take so that one healer can keep up).</p></span></p>

[githyanki]

<p>Monks already use tsunami and two absorb attack to take damage for a primary tank and also we can add our avoidance to that same primary tank.    And unless your very good at dps its better to just use one tank one healer one utility and 3 dps classes.    I dont want to become some weak little utility and sidekick for the plate tanks.    I'd rather reroll.</p>

[Eugam]

<p><cite>githyanki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well let me say a few things here. Monks are ok as off tanks in raids atm given enough time to get gear crit mit and the other goodies that come with raiding. Outside of raid equiped monks I understand that monks are gonna be stuck with a dps role or maybe given a very good groupsetup a chance at tanking some of the middle to harder instances from tso. The messed up thing is that without the mythical....which is for raiding...its very hard to understand the lack of balance to plate tanks in the tanking department.</p><p>Now the thing that does bug me about this game is that unless you raid or have raided in the past your class is not balanced vs other toons of the same kind of gear. Take a knight class with t2 shard gear fabled epic and adept 3 spells and say 150 aa's. Maybe this guy has gotten lucky and has ok avoid for the moment say 60ish percent and one of the really decent shield block 3 shields that drop like candy in tso. So your looking at a 5k miti without buffs decent avoid ok survivability. Compare that with a monk same kinda gear lvl. So 3k plus miti low 70ish avoid and 3/4 of the uncontested avoidance because he never got his master defensive. So even hp's maybe in the neighborhood of11.5k without healer buffs sounds ok on paper right? Go play it and tell me if you see something skewed here.</p></blockquote><p>As a non-raiding monk i can asure you this isnt true. I have 5 pieces combatants T1 armor, the legendary monk hat from TSO and the forarms from those two dwarf hunters in RoK, jewels is a mix of dps and tank stats. I have the fabled wepaon from Sebilis:CoA and the bloodwood effigy. I have 144 AA and i am dps/tank speced. Personally i think we get the best of both worlds from AA.</p><p>And to be honest, i feel a bit overpowered <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> I dont care if other tanks have better numbers, i can tank as well as they do outside raids. The only thing that bothers me a bit is the narrow spread of avoidance. Avoidance should be a bit equalized so i dont take such high spikes but more spreaded damage. I mean, avoidance isnt either or. This and bit more mitigation bonus from the def stance and a smaller mitigation bonus on the medium stance (at least as long as we dont get a taunt revamp <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) is basically all i want.</p><p>DPS-wise i am able to compete with a zerker tanking, buffed and in off stance. I think this is respectable and i could increase it if i would reitemize the monk for pure dps. I know, many monks out there would like to be a scout class. But we are not. /shrug Soloing is no issue at all <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I guess we would have had the chance for more DPS in raids if the fighter revamp would have worked. But the devs cant give fighters more damage without restricting the stances to some degree.</p>