Fighter Revamp 2.0 - Bruisers [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Quicksilver74

03-18-2009, 02:43 PM

The fighter revamp on test was wiped to be basicly re-done from scratch.<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/news_archive_content.vm?id=3016&section=News&locale=en_US">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...ws&locale=en_US</a>So now we have a grand opportunity to tell the devs just how we woudl like to see our class in a new fighter revamp. Lets get some ideas going! Personally I would like brawlers to have their balanced shifted more towards dps and less tanking. I mean hey I love having the ability to tank, but dpsing is what we bruisers do 9 times out of 10. I also like using my avoidance buff "Shake Off" on the main tank when raiding. I would like to see bruisers have 2 main areas of focus in a new revamp.> More DPS - Higher base attack damage, higher procs from Offensive stances and from AA procs (STA line etc), better accuracy, and a possible flurry buff either through a revamped spell (Lightning Fists anyone?) or AA. > Avoidance - Defensive stance should shine when using your avoidance buff on another. Maybe add some focus to our Defensive stance that allows "Shake Off" to gain effectiveness, like raising the max chance 10%. I'd be willing to loose some of the other benefits from our defensive stance IE mitigation or resistances to gain more avoidance. I like the utility of being able to block hits for the main tank. > Less Tanking. - Bruisers have never been popular choices for main tanks (at least in a raid scenario). Recently, we bruisers have gained many tools to help us be a "Quick Tank" as I like to call it. We can pick up a mob and hold it for a short while, using temporary abilities, basicly just long enough for the main tank to get it back. I like this function. I like being able to drag, rescue, or reposition a mob by hitting my mythical , or our AA 100% deflection Ability. They give me enough time to be safe while I do what I need to do, then the main tank can grab it. > Less Taunts? - I'd be willing to give up taunts completely and have brawlers be known as the guys who build aggro completely based on dps. Enhance taunts for crusaders and warriors, but just give me more dps.Those are simply my opinions, as they reflect the roles I often find myself in. Alot of us love to dps, and I feel the only reasonable way to ask for more dps is to sacrifice some of our tanking ability. After all there are 6 tank classes in game, and nobody needs that many. There is only 1 fight in the game that requires 4 tanks, and even that one can be done with less...

Aull

03-18-2009, 03:05 PM

Great post! I will agree with you that most groups when "looking for tank" have the mindset of plate armor and shield type of toon and not some non-shield baring leather wearing fighter.That being said I would say that bruisers and monks should be moved more towards dps in a group and not this split type of role less than scout dps and less than plate tank type of tanking survivability. Brawlers will never win in this type of mentality we have with other players. I know some raiding brawlers that can do a great job, but again plates are just better tanks period and they should be.The light armor that bruisers use should allow them to strike with fearsome authority. Recovery should also be part of a bruisers expertise. Being lightly armored would allow a missed strike to be followed up quicker than a heavily plate armored fighter.I do find myself in this role of not actually tanking and will be set into a more dps position. Even when I am asked to tank I usually log to my zerker or sk depending on the zone. So even I myself fall into the plates are tanks type of mentality.I do greatly support brawlers being moved into a more dps field of play than tanking.

alabama

03-18-2009, 04:52 PM

This is my first post on these forums. I often read them for helpful tips and tricks provided by some of you other bruisers that i may not have thought of myself or overlooked, but im not one to whine on here or post alot since soe doesnt listen to us anyways. I have been playing a bruiser since this game launched, and a bruiser on pvp since the servers opened. I, like most of you guys have been constantly kicked in the nuts with all the changes and nerfs to our class over the years, but for my enjoyment of what we can do as a class have stuck it out. The recent fighter revamp almost made me give up on my bruiser. Not because of the multi mob agro they are addressing (which i do think we need a little help with) but moreso with our constant dps nerfs. I ABSOLUTELY agree with crabbok! We need more dps. Bruisers should be the absolute top fighter dps without a doubt, with monks right behind us. If it takes us losing some tankabilty then so be it, that is the design of our class. No disrespect but those bruisers out there who want to be a main raid tank and hang with the plate boys in all aspects are just simply playing the wrong class a chasing a pipe dream. I am not one of the elite bruisers in a top end raiding guild with a mythical but that has never stopped me from smashing in faces in pvp and i run solo 95% of the time. I saw they wiped out the fighter revamp and are going to rework it so that inspired me to log into this thing and post my support for our class in hope that we can maybe finally get our class back on track and soe will stop being influenced by the forum whiners who think bruiser should be able to tank like the plate boys. We chose this class for our utility, sweet kung fu face smash moves and to be the TOP FIGHTER DPS while still being able to tank.....some. So thanks to those of you who have tried so hard to get soe to listen and keep our class on track (crabbok, gungo, many others) and i hope this time we can get straightened out. And flurry sounds like a great idea to start with.

Lethe5683

03-18-2009, 11:01 PM

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>> More DPS - Higher base attack damage, higher procs from Offensive stances and from AA procs (STA line etc), better accuracy, and a possible flurry buff either through a revamped spell (Lightning Fists anyone?) or AA. I agree we should have more DPS since we are supposed to have better DPS to offset our lack of mitigation, yet currently we have no significant DPS advantage over plate tanks.> Avoidance - Defensive stance should shine when using your avoidance buff on another. Maybe add some focus to our Defensive stance that allows "Shake Off" to gain effectiveness, like raising the max chance 10%. I'd be willing to loose some of the other benefits from our defensive stance IE mitigation or resistances to gain more avoidance. I like the utility of being able to block hits for the main tank. I hate helping plate tanks tank better. Defensive stance should have it's avoidance increased but not at the cost of mitigation. For people like you who use "Shake Off" maybe they could just increase the amont of avoidance that it transfers.> Less Tanking. - Bruisers have never been popular choices for main tanks (at least in a raid scenario). Recently, we bruisers have gained many tools to help us be a "Quick Tank" as I like to call it. We can pick up a mob and hold it for a short while, using temporary abilities, basicly just long enough for the main tank to get it back. I like this function. I like being able to drag, rescue, or reposition a mob by hitting my mythical , or our AA 100% deflection Ability. They give me enough time to be safe while I do what I need to do, then the main tank can grab it. No, brawlers are supposed to be tanks too. There's no reason that avoidance tanking should be any less effective than mitigation tanking. All that really needed to be done is plate tank avoidance drastically lowered + the mitigation curve fixed and mobs adjusted to not hit as hard.> Less Taunts? - I'd be willing to give up taunts completely and have brawlers be known as the guys who build aggro completely based on dps. Enhance taunts for crusaders and warriors, but just give me more dps.I agree, I dislike taunts except for divide and conquer since that's at least actually usefull. But to do this we need to have the offensive skill penalties removed from our stances.Those are simply my opinions, as they reflect the roles I often find myself in. Alot of us love to dps, and I feel the only reasonable way to ask for more dps is to sacrifice some of our tanking ability. After all there are 6 tank classes in game, and nobody needs that many. There is only 1 fight in the game that requires 4 tanks, and even that one can be done with less... We should not have to sacrifice any tanking ability for incrased DPS since currently we have about the same DPS as plate tanks but with less tanking ability. We don't need to give up anything we simply need our DPS increased. Equal AoE autoattack, crit and DA as well as removing the skill penalties from defensive would be probably just what we neeed.</blockquote>

Pnaxx

03-19-2009, 12:14 AM

I think the offtanking roll should be our niche. Now, I dunno if MA is what I am talking about either, but maybe. But I would like to see DPS improved too, though like the report said, as of now, there are blurred lines. The more utility we have, the less dps we get. Kinda like the bards...even though they are scouts, dps suffers for thier utility.I know we cant be expecting to dps like a pure dps class that has minor utility. Or, should they reclass us? A non-tank fighter, or something like that. We cant have it both ways. Right now we are sorta stuck in between. I am talking about a heroic grouping player, not raiding. There are alot of us without Mythicals and raid gear with maxed out AA's. Just havn't had the time. So it makes tanking some bosses pretty tough at times. Especially in PUG's. I do raid once a week and have nice gear, way above average i think....t1-2 shard armor and everything else very highend legendary with some fabled. Only 145 AA's.So, I would alot of players fall into my catagory, more casual players. If we are gonna lean one way or the other, then yea, I would prolly vote fer an increased DPS role but with some good utility as well. Something really designed to help the tank....not really the whole party. Blah...when i get right down to it, i just get confused on the issue..ill just let you all figure it out...seems like a quagmire with us as what we want to be or should be. I do love to tank.

Dreco

03-19-2009, 10:09 AM

I would love more DPS, if a rogue can tank like us then we should be able to dps like a rogue.I suggest change Rock skin to something else, maybe something dps oriented CA or buff or minion pets(like hood of thugs that Brigs have)I think we should ask for the health drain on Resistant Spirit removed, and to be fair about it put it on a longer recast, so it can more or less be used for "pinch tanking".More AE CA's, I would like to see Double Stomp to be an AE knockdown to the same effect it has currently (if target is already knocked down then it does more damage).I think we should still fight for equal or more DA/MC/AE auto. Up the auto attack dmg too.I want the D-fist 2.0, the 1% epic damage, the one that never made it to live or at least the one that made it to live D-fist 2.1 not that worthless trash we have now.Shorten the range that Sonic Punch can be used and make Lightning Fists a flurry ability hence Lightning Fists.Change the Intercede line in our AA tree to something else, I hate taking damage for a "plate" fighter.I want a CA that summons a pet land shark with laser beams <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />I know all these may not happen but 1 or 2 would be great.editted: to also add I want my DPS mod back too

Greavous

03-19-2009, 11:18 AM

When I rolled a Bruiser I was rolling an avoidance tank. That’s what I was told by SOE. A tank, not a scout. The real main problem with the brawler tanking issues is avoidance is too easy to get for the other classes so making Mobs that are designed to be tanked by avoidance fighters can easily be handled by plate wearers. If they truly want to fix the fighters, make avoidance a difficult thing to get unless you’re a brawler and convert high avoidance into a meaningful defensive option. Monks should be slightly higher avoidance IMO and Bruisers slightly higher mit. But both should keep agro primarily by dps and hate procs. Plate tanks should gain/keep agro by taunts. Plate tanks should be lower dps and leather tanks higher dps. I still believe that plate should have an edge over leather tanks for most fights but there could easily be enough mobs converted to avoidance tanking to make both Monks and Bruisers needed on raids. I reckon that haste has become miles too easy to get and Monks have lost their edge because of that. Brawlers need some of their stuns to effect epics. This way good players can tank and button mashers will die. The official description of a Bruiser is “a juggernaut of pain” “a vicious tool for inflicting suffering on his foes” and “most effective on the frontlines of combat”. At the moment we are out dps’d by other plate tanks and relegated to the second row of combat. <span style="font-family: Verdana; mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 8.0pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">I love playing a Bruiser. The whole in your face, ripping your opponents arm off and hitting him with the wet end sort of knockdown drag em out bar room brawler. He’s a dirty street fighter and he needs to be given the tools to do his job. The Monk is the martial art equivalent. Not able to take the hits quite as well but able to deflect and dodge a lot more because of their dedication to their craft. If others don’t see the two classes this way then please express your view.

Aull

03-19-2009, 12:00 PM

I agree with you Brannigan. It has been a few years but all my friends were playing monks at the time. I watched in amazment what my friends monk was doing and thought it was great and that I would roll a monk as well. He mentioned a bruiser would be cool for me to play since everyone we know plays a monk. He heard that bruiser were better dps than a monk so I decided to do some research.I read eqII ten ton hammer's description of a bruiser and part of it stated "being the evil counterpart of the Monks, they deal out more damage than their Qeynosian counterparts, but still maintain that amazing style of physical grace combined with the sheer deadly force brought by the skills of their martial arts". After reading that and knowing what my friends monks were capable of I rolled my bruiser with the thought of being an evil dps'ing fighter.Back then I would say that my bruiser was slightly ahead of other fighters. Today I find my bruiser as still nice dps, but guess what other fighters like the zerker, monk, and definately the sk are at times beating my bruiser in an area where the bruiser should be doing much better all things being equal.I perceive bruisers as this kill now ask questions later type of fighter. Powerful offense before a strong defense mentality. Bruisers don't talk, make promises, or threaten. They just inflict pain suffering.They should cause they are evil.

peepshow

03-19-2009, 01:24 PM

Not gonna write a long story again, so I just took a copy of my last post from flames..True, they can do something with our class, but as I see it its not on the dps side they need to fix anything, it’s in our tank role we lack... I see no reason why any guilds can’t chose the tank they want, why a raid leader cant use the off tank he prefer, as it is now the choice is pretty much the same everywhere, and Brawlers are usually not in the picture when thinking about MT’s and OT’s.. Why is this? Why do we have 6 different tanks and only 1 of them is used as raid MT? Sure, there are Guilds that don’t use Guardians as MT, but I’m sure you can find 10 Guardian MT’s for every non guardian MT... When I first made the choice of retiring my Troub to play Bruiser, I did it for 2 single reasons... I want to do dps in raids, not like Assassins or Wizards, but more than Bards and Chanters, and while doing dps, I would be able to rescue, drag, hold, and tank a mob for a short duration, just in case MT gets 1shotted or something like that... But outside raids I want to be able to tank instances, and do it just as “easy” as the plate tanks with same gear/skill... I have tanked both sisters and Maestro in Shard of Hate, but see if you can find me 2 healers that can hold me up on Varsoon!! Impossible… In my opinion, what we need is to use our stances in the right way... Offensive = 100 % dps This I want to use when I go in groups as dps, or when fighting trash stuff in raids, no survival expected in this stance, but still be able to give my high avoid to MT... This could be with lowered mitigation, or something like that, just don’t touch the Avoidance. Dps between Assassins/wizards and Swashy/Briggy is what I would aim for in this stance to make it worth the spot... Mid stance 75 % dps 25 % tank This is where I want to be able to just pop an emergency something and hold a mob for a short duration while the MT gets up and ready to take over again, and still be able to do some dps while not “taking over”... Dps between Rouge and Bard/chanters, maybe even a little higher just to make it worth having us in the raid... Def stance = 100 % Tank This is where I want to be able to Tank/OT like every other fighter classes, doesn’t matter if it’s a level 87^^^x4 mob or a 62 solo mob... I’m fighter in Tank stance, I want to tank... Dps here, I’m not sure about, but it should be the same for us as for every other tank in def stance... A little side note, I do enjoy tanking, and the only reason I made a Bruiser was so I could Tank instances when not raiding.. In time, and if our MT or OT is not there for a raid, I would sure as hell like to do my very best to step up in that role instead of him, not that made him for the purpose of being raid MT / OT..

Aull

03-19-2009, 01:58 PM

I understand that some will be inclined to the tank distinction and others for the dps distinction. Three years ago was when I took the time to look into the bruiser class before its creation. Again from what I have gathered was that bruiser will be first and foremost offensively inclined and defensive second.Just my opinion here but dps was what identified the bruiser class since the beginning and that is what a bruiser should be primarily distinguished as.Sorry but currently zerkers and sk's dps will match and at times beat bruisers all things being equal on raids. Being able as a bruiser to have a distinct higher dps potential than other fighters should be the bruisers indentification card. We don't bring utitlity, minor tanking skills, but since we lack in those areas dps will and should be the bruisers forte.While I do enjoy tanking everyday norrath on my bruiser I don't think that a bruiser in leather armor and no shield should be able to tank and have the survivability that shields and plate armor provide for zerkers and sk's. On the flip side zerkers and sk's should be more encumbered and their dps potential should be lower than a bruisers. Just my thoughts.

Greavous

03-19-2009, 08:25 PM

We really need to focus on a small list of things we can all agree on or we are all going to go off in our own little tangents.First we need to agree (or disagree) on the feel of the class. Are we a Heroic tank only? (No)Should we ever be able to tank high end Epic content? (Yes)Are we the AE leather damage dealer and monks the single target dps? (Yes)Should we hold agro through dps or taunts? (dps)Should we be the top dps tank? (Yes)Should we be utility heavy or dps/agro only? (Minimal utility) If they made avoidance worth something and very hard to get, I think that the likes of Shake off should become available only in defensive stance (still up but not effective till we switch back to defensive). That way our needed avoidance will be available to our plate brothers if they are taking a beating. I also like the oh crap feel of the raiding Bruiser. No other class can grab and hold a loose Epic faster. The trouble is we can only stand for a short time. I would be happy for that to be our role as long as we are given the dps boost to give us an edge over other fighters. If we can’t have survivability then give us something. SOE have the opportunity of melding us into a great and enjoyable class without overpowering us or limiting us. But we need a direction. We need to know who we are and what we are designed for. At the moment I feel the class has had a lot less time spent on it and has been neglected heavily both in development and 2 way communication. Please guys. Fix us once and fix us properly. Don’t do a halfass job.

peepshow

03-20-2009, 06:29 AM

<cite>Brannigan@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote> Please guys. Fix us once and fix us properly. Don’t do a halfass job.</blockquote>Well spoken..Would be a [Removed for Content] shame now they have the chance to make all the tanks into what they SHOULD be..3 Single target tanks (Guard, Pally, Monk) and 3 AoE tanks (Zerker, SK, Bruiser)And please lets see a reason for us to actually change the tank needed for a specific encounter, make us NEED an AoE tank on aoe encounters and vice versa..Our Guardian can hold a group of 6 Epics fine with locks going crazy, he just need a Coercer, Dirge and Swashy in group and its done..A change in that would be very nice..

alabama

03-20-2009, 12:38 PM

Are we a Heroic tank only? (No)Should we ever be able to tank high end Epic content? (Yes)Are we the AE leather damage dealer and monks the single target dps? (Yes)Should we hold agro through dps or taunts? (dps)Should we be the top dps tank? (Yes)Should we be utility heavy or dps/agro only? (Minimal utility) Are we a Heroic tank only? (No i think we should be able to tank some raid trash and we should retain our raid boss temp control utility...pop mythical or aa and drag mob to desired spot or hold for few secs till tank is back but i do not think our class should be tanking epics bosses imo. And yes i think its fun to grab the boss when the plates drop and save the day but we have do draw a line somewhere or soe will draw it for us.) Should we ever be able to tank high end Epic content? (besides our temp controls, No. Thats what the plate boys are for.) Are we the AE leather damage dealer and monks the single target dps? (No. I think dividing us into those categories is very restricting and a crap fix to a real problem. All the fighter should be able to handle single target and multi target fights, however through diff means. Now some classes should excell in diff fights but to hold agro and tank all fighters should be able to do both.) Should we hold agro through dps or taunts? (Dps) Should we be the top Dps tank? (Absobonecrushinglutely) Should we be utility heavy or dps/agro only? (Minimal utility, with the highest fighter dps. Im tired of the please just make us even with the other fighters arguments, its bs. We are the bruisers, controlled madness is what we are about, give us the dps above the other fighters or lower theirs plain and simple. Do i feel like im asking for to much to raise our dps above the other fighters? No, because we wear leather and cant stand up to the hits the plate boys can take. Im fine with that because I sacrificed taking harder hits and wearing leather to be able to beat the hell out of whatever was dumb enough to cross our path, plus all the utility and tricks we have in our list.) I mostly agree with you Brannigan. I think you bro want to tank a little more and i want a little more dps but overall i think you raise some very good question on your list. I think overall our class is pretty close to where we all want it, we just need some help controlling encounters with multiple mobs,some raid utility so we are actually needed and whether or not you think bruisers should be raid tanks i think we all can agree we should be the top fighter dps. I read a post by someone i dont remember who it was atm but they wrote about how they killed our real role in eq2 when they got rid of using us to break encounters with our fd. Very true and i was somewhat dissapointed to see this. I think it would be really cool is soe put some new raid mobs maybe in next expansion that actually need a bruis/monk for our mob splitting skills. Then those of us with who knew what the hell we're doing can shine in the raids and have a usful skill no other class can do.(Yes other classes can fd but not on our timer and if you remember the old eq monk, the eq2 classes now wouldnt have a chance breaking mobs apart if the impliment it right.) Just and idea.

Sprin

03-20-2009, 07:27 PM

Very first thing that needs to be changed is Rock Skin... I'm fully mastered and dont even have that spell AP2 and its nowwhere on my hotbar... its a useless spell. You see Zerkers with plate mitigation, nearly the same avoidance and a temp buff (dont recall the name) that increases huge amount of mitigation and also does all sorts of other cool stuff... Ours stuns us and makes us worthless blobs... its the equivalent of having a stunned PLate tank for 30 seconds... what good is that? nothing... Make it worth while... right now its worthless spell and i cant think of a single good use for itSecondly, i would like to see PVP aggro fixed for bruisers. We ARE tanks, and very good ones. I can stand up to 3 scouts and hardly take any damage, casters? no problem, Stone Deaf and knockout combo FTW... agro control needs to be addressed. We have 0 AOE tuants, and our reactive taunt is based off Melee damage we do to the opponent. Would be great if we had more then 2 blue AOEs, but as it stands its just not good enough. It needs to be more in line with a Lore type of situation where we are trained fighters, and masters of our environment due to our training and experience fighting multiple people at a time. We need to be able to have reactions that are GREATER then that of plate tanks, as they are held down by heavy plate. Yet we have garbage reactive taunts for PVP... It nearly needs to be reversed between Guardians and Bruisers. We are more agile and trained to see multiple opponents without the cumbersome plate armor getting in the way... We should be able to react to damage taken by our group members and taunt opponents off in that manner. We are not AOE tanks, so our reactive taunts should not be AOE based, since we dont have the damage to sustain a good hold on AOE opponents. Make it so we are either AOE tanks and give us 2 more AOE atacks, or make it so our reactive taunts can react better to the way we are designed.

Ol

03-21-2009, 05:12 PM

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fighter revamp on test was wiped to be basicly re-done from scratch.<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/news_archive_content.vm?id=3016&section=News&locale=en_US">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...ws&locale=en_US</a>So now we have a grand opportunity to tell the devs just how we woudl like to see our class in a new fighter revamp. Lets get some ideas going! Personally I would like brawlers to have their balanced shifted more towards dps and less tanking. I mean hey I love having the ability to tank, but dpsing is what we bruisers do 9 times out of 10. I also like using my avoidance buff "Shake Off" on the main tank when raiding. I would like to see bruisers have 2 main areas of focus in a new revamp.> More DPS - Higher base attack damage, higher procs from Offensive stances and from AA procs (STA line etc), better accuracy, and a possible flurry buff either through a revamped spell (Lightning Fists anyone?) or AA. > Avoidance - Defensive stance should shine when using your avoidance buff on another. Maybe add some focus to our Defensive stance that allows "Shake Off" to gain effectiveness, like raising the max chance 10%. I'd be willing to loose some of the other benefits from our defensive stance IE mitigation or resistances to gain more avoidance. I like the utility of being able to block hits for the main tank. > Less Tanking. - Bruisers have never been popular choices for main tanks (at least in a raid scenario). Recently, we bruisers have gained many tools to help us be a "Quick Tank" as I like to call it. We can pick up a mob and hold it for a short while, using temporary abilities, basicly just long enough for the main tank to get it back. I like this function. I like being able to drag, rescue, or reposition a mob by hitting my mythical , or our AA 100% deflection Ability. They give me enough time to be safe while I do what I need to do, then the main tank can grab it. > Less Taunts? - I'd be willing to give up taunts completely and have brawlers be known as the guys who build aggro completely based on dps. Enhance taunts for crusaders and warriors, but just give me more dps.Those are simply my opinions, as they reflect the roles I often find myself in. Alot of us love to dps, and I feel the only reasonable way to ask for more dps is to sacrifice some of our tanking ability. After all there are 6 tank classes in game, and nobody needs that many. There is only 1 fight in the game that requires 4 tanks, and even that one can be done with less... </blockquote>I agree. Brawlers should be the top dps tanks. Monks should be more deffensive and Bruisers should be more offensive. Also, With monks getting a damage proc on their Offensive stance, we should get a stat on ours. (Provided thats still going through)

Gilasil

03-22-2009, 11:13 AM

<cite>Brannigan@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>We really need to focus on a small list of things we can all agree on or we are all going to go off in our own little tangents.</blockquote>An excellent point that it's best to present a short list which most can agree on and that an SoE dev scanning posts can quickly comprehend. Of course first people need to lay out their concerns. Then a short list should be presented which encompasses their concerns.For me the bottom line is that bruisers MUST have role in that vast majority of groups and raids which players buy into i.e. it must become a commonly accepted fact among players quickly that bruisers fit this role. This role should exist in almost every group and raid as a natural result of the combat mechanics (i.e. forcing raids to bring along a brawler for a specific mob because the script requires it is in my opinion a dead end).I can go either of two ways and am open to other possible roles. However, SOMETHING needs to be done as right now bruisers (brawlers actually) just don't fit in and that is intolerable.I Tank. 1. Upgrade survivability to be comparable to plate tanks with comparable equipment CA level and player skill. I.e. A bruiser with treasured equipment and adept 1s should be as effective a tank as a guardian with treasured equipment and adept 1s (admittedly neither would be a great tank, but they should be comparable in their un-greatness<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> ). Likewise mastered out toons with their mythicals. All levels.2. Give comperable taunting abilities.3. Something to differentiate the class. DPS? It's often suggested that brawlers should do more DPS. However, since DPS is itself a desireable characteristic, doing more DPS requires they give up SOMETHING if they're to tank as well as a plate tank (and tanking ability which is anything less means they won't be tanking at all for anything but trash mobs). What they give up should not cripple their core role (tanking) but they should give up something if they'll be DPS tanks. Perhaps other people have ides of what they could give up in exchange for more DPS then other fighters which would still leave them as capable tanks and desired in raids and groups.II. DPS (this basically moves them from the fighter to the scout archetype)1. Upgrade DPS to be comparable to scouts such as brigands with comparable equipment, CA level and player skill. 2. Add deaggro capabilities. 3. Add some utility niche if their DPS won't be comparable to top level DPS classes such as assassins (perhaps that niche could be offtank?). I'd love it if they could make it such that feign death ability had as important a role in raids as it did in EQ1 -- with a little work brawlers could then fill that role. Alas, that would require major changes to their combat years after release and probably get the same reception as the fighter revamp.******Another possability which was aluded to would be make them tank with comparable survivability to plate tanks, but make that survivability depend on combat arts the player has to activate during the course of the fight. There are a couple in the TSO AA tree along those lines -- the bruiser tsunami (can't remember it's name), short duration stoneskin, CAs which cause the next attack to be absorbed if it would have done damage at least x% of the bruiser's hit ponts. There should be enough that you could actually perform as a raid main tank that way if you knew what you were doing. I think if bruisers had to do that to main tank they'd deserve the extra DPS. It would certainly make tanking interesting.If they go that route the basic combat arts must be available without spending AAs. AAs could enhance them but, since tanking would be a core role, the tools with which to do it should be core.**************Finally, there needs to be a reason why a well balanced raid should include six fighters. (I'd care about this if they go the tanking route for bruisers). Right now there isn't. This is an issue which extends to all fighters, but it's definately an issue. I could see them fixing up bruisers to be great tanks, but many of us STILL would have a tough time getting into raids simply because most raids don't need more then two tanks.

Aull

03-22-2009, 12:45 PM

I wish we could just do a poll here in the bruiser community to see where everyone as "bruisers"s feel the class needs to be.Some would be for tanking where others want dps. With a poll we could try and see what the thoughts of the bruiser community want and work from there.However using polls is against the rules so that shoots this idea in the foot.

Novusod

03-22-2009, 01:04 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wish we could just do a poll here in the bruiser community to see where everyone as "bruisers"s feel the class needs to be.Some would be for tanking where others want dps. With a poll we could try and see what the thoughts of the bruiser community want and work from there.However using polls is against the rules so that shoots this idea in the foot.</blockquote>We should probably conduct the poll on the eq2 flames forum and then come back here with the results.

Larkverdin

03-23-2009, 04:27 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>We should probably conduct the poll on the eq2 flames forum and then come back here with the results.</blockquote>Novu was so kind as to do this for us, for anyone who doesn't have eq2 flames bookmarked already, here's the poll: <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/42412-class-direction-bruisers-dps-tanks.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/bruisers/4...-dps-tanks.html</a>

Kram337

05-04-2009, 06:26 AM

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fighter revamp on test was wiped to be basicly re-done from scratch.<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/news_archive_content.vm?id=3016&section=News&locale=en_US">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...ws&locale=en_US</a>So now we have a grand opportunity to tell the devs just how we woudl like to see our class in a new fighter revamp. Lets get some ideas going! Personally I would like brawlers to have their balanced shifted more towards dps and less tanking. I mean hey I love having the ability to tank, but dpsing is what we bruisers do 9 times out of 10. I also like using my avoidance buff "Shake Off" on the main tank when raiding. I would like to see bruisers have 2 main areas of focus in a new revamp.> More DPS - Higher base attack damage, higher procs from Offensive stances and from AA procs (STA line etc), better accuracy, and a possible flurry buff either through a revamped spell (Lightning Fists anyone?) or AA. > Avoidance - Defensive stance should shine when using your avoidance buff on another. Maybe add some focus to our Defensive stance that allows "Shake Off" to gain effectiveness, like raising the max chance 10%. I'd be willing to loose some of the other benefits from our defensive stance IE mitigation or resistances to gain more avoidance. I like the utility of being able to block hits for the main tank. > Less Tanking. - Bruisers have never been popular choices for main tanks (at least in a raid scenario). Recently, we bruisers have gained many tools to help us be a "Quick Tank" as I like to call it. We can pick up a mob and hold it for a short while, using temporary abilities, basicly just long enough for the main tank to get it back. I like this function. I like being able to drag, rescue, or reposition a mob by hitting my mythical , or our AA 100% deflection Ability. They give me enough time to be safe while I do what I need to do, then the main tank can grab it. > Less Taunts? - I'd be willing to give up taunts completely and have brawlers be known as the guys who build aggro completely based on dps. Enhance taunts for crusaders and warriors, but just give me more dps.Those are simply my opinions, as they reflect the roles I often find myself in. Alot of us love to dps, and I feel the only reasonable way to ask for more dps is to sacrifice some of our tanking ability. After all there are 6 tank classes in game, and nobody needs that many. There is only 1 fight in the game that requires 4 tanks, and even that one can be done with less... </blockquote>DPS:I agree with more dps of course. Not asking to be OP but asking to be fixed. We're currently out done by plate tanks for dps and thats a sad thing. Not every plate tank out does us, but it seems like the ones who do, do it by a huge margin. I want to be the dps tank again.Avoidance:I have no opinion on this. If it makes us more desirable for raids okay then. For groups, I dont see this as a requirement for us.Less Tanking:If it meant that they'd take away our TSO tanking aa's and replace them with useful DPS AA's, I'd be all for that. The only tank oriented aa I would want to keep is Inpenetrable Will (100% deflection). The other ones are so useless. I dont need an aa to prevent dmg when I'm taking hits of 40% or more of my hp. If some mob hits me for 40% of my hp I CANT TANK IT. And I wouldn't be the tank in this situation. If im getting hit for 40% of my hp, I'll die 5 seconds later if I dont lose agro anyway. Regardless of an absorbed attack. I say get rid of those entirely. Replace them with dps oriented aa's since thats our roll in so many situations.Less Taunts:Same with less tanking. I dont need AA's that help me taunt. The taunts you've given us are enough already. 1 single target, 2 encounter wide, and 1 divide and conq. Thats all I need. I use the TSO Taunt AA for its damage. I follow it with FD if it gets me agro (only in groups not raids of course). I dont want it to taunt =/ I want it to do dmg only.I'm mostly content with bruiser, my only complaints are lack of weapon choices and lack of DPS in comparison to other classes.

Loom18

05-04-2009, 10:46 AM

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fighter revamp on test was wiped to be basicly re-done from scratch.<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/news_archive_content.vm?id=3016&section=News&locale=en_US">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...ws&locale=en_US</a>So now we have a grand opportunity to tell the devs just how we woudl like to see our class in a new fighter revamp. Lets get some ideas going! Personally I would like brawlers to have their balanced shifted more towards dps and less tanking. I mean hey I love having the ability to tank, but dpsing is what we bruisers do 9 times out of 10. I also like using my avoidance buff "Shake Off" on the main tank when raiding. I would like to see bruisers have 2 main areas of focus in a new revamp.> More DPS - Higher base attack damage, higher procs from Offensive stances and from AA procs (STA line etc), better accuracy, and a possible flurry buff either through a revamped spell (Lightning Fists anyone?) or AA. > Avoidance - Defensive stance should shine when using your avoidance buff on another. Maybe add some focus to our Defensive stance that allows "Shake Off" to gain effectiveness, like raising the max chance 10%. I'd be willing to loose some of the other benefits from our defensive stance IE mitigation or resistances to gain more avoidance. I like the utility of being able to block hits for the main tank. > Less Tanking. - Bruisers have never been popular choices for main tanks (at least in a raid scenario). Recently, we bruisers have gained many tools to help us be a "Quick Tank" as I like to call it. We can pick up a mob and hold it for a short while, using temporary abilities, basicly just long enough for the main tank to get it back. I like this function. I like being able to drag, rescue, or reposition a mob by hitting my mythical , or our AA 100% deflection Ability. They give me enough time to be safe while I do what I need to do, then the main tank can grab it. > Less Taunts? - I'd be willing to give up taunts completely and have brawlers be known as the guys who build aggro completely based on dps. Enhance taunts for crusaders and warriors, but just give me more dps.Those are simply my opinions, as they reflect the roles I often find myself in. Alot of us love to dps, and I feel the only reasonable way to ask for more dps is to sacrifice some of our tanking ability. After all there are 6 tank classes in game, and nobody needs that many. There is only 1 fight in the game that requires 4 tanks, and even that one can be done with less... </blockquote>Just my thoughts..Just going to hit on all issues at once.. I am not that unhappy with our DPS, (I am more disappointed with our lack of ability to hold group agro) I think it is close to being on Par...maybe a slight increase, although I do have an idea that would increase it slightly, and possibly solve the agro/dps issues with one ability. I got the idea from 2-boxin with my Swash....and actually he (my Swash) can hold agro better through pure dps then my Bruiser can due to the "Hurricane" ability....possibly a frontal position Hurricane for Bruiser's and Monks? just a tought, I can basically stay on one target with my swash and hold agro fine, from other dps in group just cause of Hurricane and high DPS. I know Monks got a Triple attack in EQ1 when they where positioned in front of the mob, and this helped drastically....I know there is that fine line between making us group friendly and not to ungodly powerful on the solo side, but i have noticed more and more groups going for that cookie cutter setup.....Plate Tank, Healer, Mana Regen, highest DPS possible......just about everyone fits in there somewhere, with the exception of Monks and Bruisers...and others bring a bit more to the table. Personally I think Monks, and Bruisers should have the Hate transfers/building abilites....this could happen without hidering Assassins, Swash's, Dirges, Coercers....all these classes still have vital parts to bring to the raid that a Bruiser or Monk could never possibly take away from them..I think it is more of a lack of diversity in Raid usuably abilites being spread out amungst all the classes, evenly....Raids and Groups are dependent on all classes to bring something, except Bruiser and Monks....I can look at all these classes and make out how they are dependend on in groups or raids>Tanks - Guardians, Berserkers, Shadowknights, Paladins all can Mit tank much better, and easier>Healers - Do i need to say more?>Wiz, Warlock, Necro, Conjur - Very High DPS, mana shards, debuffs, coolness>Coercer, Illus - again high dps, croud controll, mana regen, hate transfers, among other things>Assass, Ranger - Serious DPS we can never compete with>Dirge, Troub - multitude of things raids and groups depend on>Brigand, Swash - Hate transfers and serious debuffs, along with high dps>Monks, Bruisers - ??Not saying we dont bring some utility to groups and raids, but i can't see anything that we bring that outweights others...just my 2cents...of course a raid with an over abundence of anything will replace with a Monk or Bruiser....but you dont see all to often it being said......WAIT!!!!! get rid of that swash, we need a Bruiser, or WAIT!!! get rid of that troub, we need that Monk....only raids with an overabondance of Monks and Bruisers are Pickup raids....most just do without..

Gungo

05-04-2009, 05:51 PM

My fighter revamp 2.0 wishlistUtility-1) remove the intercede line and change it to upgrade our shrug off line (Something like this)step 1 reduces targets damage by 1% per rankstep 2 increases riposte chance of target by 1% per rankstep 3 Increase base taunt by 2% per rankstep 4 Increase base hitpoints by 2% per rankstep 5 intercede's on target take 50% less damage.2) turn Lightening Fists into a group proc 5th rank in tso AA can add an extra trigger3) turn Chi str line AA into a group buff4) make altruism a 50%+ health sv5) NEW effect added to jab line- reduce chance to strike through by 10%DPS-1) make manhandle and the offensive stance into an encounter proc2) make our crit/da and Aoe auto atk AA the same as every other fighter and not worse equivilant AA's (40%)3) make crane flock into 100% aoe auto atk and 15% chance to flurry reusable every 2 min duration 20 secs4) take our AA atks and make them upgrades to exsisting atks instead of new abilities. 5) remove the final ability from bruisers that is a hate gain/positional atk and change it into a passive buff that increases strikethrough by 20% and accuracy by 10%Tank-1) Make our rock skin AA in bruiser tree remove stun at rank52) make eagle shriek AA add 20% damage reduction when target is below 50%3) Give int line claw reversal the taunt % taunt crit % from fighter revamp 1.04) add in taunt crit and agression changes increase taunts from fighter change 1.05) remove the avoidance line buff from all fighters except brawlers allowing brawlers to have a useful individual buff.Itemization-fix the avatar weapon to add 15% deflection chancefix the Wu bp to add 10% damage reduction and 40 crit mitFinally merge bruiser and monks whats really the difference now? They are the same class minus 1-2 abilites.Place peel in the spot for control hate in the bruiser tree. Add cast speed instead of the 16% taunt % in the bruiser raid wide. Add haste to the bruiser offensive stance 40% and mid stance 20%. Can change my initial taunt % increaser to shrug off into a 5% hate transfer/siphon. Allow the bruiser heal to be cast on other. Add in a magic ward spell line. Allow the bruiser AA for indomitable will to not only reduce recast but add in additional cure effects. Add in 15% strikethrough to our mythical and then bruiser will have everything a monk has but better. Call the new class brawler. Then next expansion introduce the B34stlord class as a rogue based pet class that can use All brawler/select scout gear. The brawlers who betray can betray to the b34stlord after its unlocked on the server.

Aull

05-04-2009, 10:07 PM

Good write up Gungo.I will say that as this game has pressed along monks and bruisers have become so much alike that there is no need for sub classing the brawler class.What ever has been given to subject A will eventually be given to subject B due to jealousy, in the name of "balance", or players threatening to quit. To bad dealing with disappointment(s) is something that todays players have major difficulty coping with.All of you bruisers here have some great suggestions and I do hope that someone in SOE will see these and attempt to make some adjustments.Guess we will just need to keep rotating through the ca's till improvement(s) are made.

urgatorbait

05-06-2009, 08:56 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>My fighter revamp 2.0 wishlistUtility-1) remove the intercede line and change it to upgrade our shrug off line (Something like this)step 1 reduces targets damage by 1% per rankstep 2 increases riposte chance of target by 1% per rankstep 3 Increase base taunt by 2% per rankstep 4 Increase base hitpoints by 2% per rankstep 5 intercede's on target take 50% less damage.2) turn Lightening Fists into a group proc 5th rank in tso AA can add an extra trigger3) turn Chi str line AA into a group buff4) make altruism a 50%+ health sv5) NEW effect added to jab line- reduce chance to strike through by 10%DPS-1) make manhandle and the offensive stance into an encounter proc2) make our crit/da and Aoe auto atk AA the same as every other fighter and not worse equivilant AA's (40%)3) make crane flock into 100% aoe auto atk and 15% chance to flurry reusable every 2 min duration 20 secs4) take our AA atks and make them upgrades to exsisting atks instead of new abilities. 5) remove the final ability from bruisers that is a hate gain/positional atk and change it into a passive buff that increases strikethrough by 20% and accuracy by 10%Tank-1) Make our rock skin AA in bruiser tree remove stun at rank52) make eagle shriek AA add 20% damage reduction when target is below 50%3) Give int line claw reversal the taunt % taunt crit % from fighter revamp 1.04) add in taunt crit and agression changes increase taunts from fighter change 1.05) remove the avoidance line buff from all fighters except brawlers allowing brawlers to have a useful individual buff.Itemization-fix the avatar weapon to add 15% deflection chancefix the Wu bp to add 10% damage reduction and 40 crit mitFinally merge bruiser and monks whats really the difference now? They are the same class minus 1-2 abilites.Place peel in the spot for control hate in the bruiser tree. Add cast speed instead of the 16% taunt % in the bruiser raid wide. Add haste to the bruiser offensive stance 40% and mid stance 20%. Can change my initial taunt % increaser to shrug off into a 5% hate transfer/siphon. Allow the bruiser heal to be cast on other. Add in a magic ward spell line. Allow the bruiser AA for indomitable will to not only reduce recast but add in additional cure effects. Add in 15% strikethrough to our mythical and then bruiser will have everything a monk has but better. Call the new class brawler. Then next expansion introduce the B34stlord class as a rogue based pet class that can use All brawler/select scout gear. The brawlers who betray can betray to the b34stlord after its unlocked on the server.</blockquote>This post gives me a woody! Well stated, Gungo.

peepshow

05-07-2009, 03:46 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>My fighter revamp 2.0 wishlistUtility-1) remove the intercede line and change it to upgrade our shrug off line (Something like this)step 1 reduces targets damage by 1% per rankstep 2 increases riposte chance of target by 1% per rankstep 3 Increase base taunt by 2% per rankstep 4 Increase base hitpoints by 2% per rankstep 5 intercede's on target take 50% less damage.2) turn Lightening Fists into a group proc 5th rank in tso AA can add an extra trigger3) turn Chi str line AA into a group buff4) make altruism a 50%+ health sv5) NEW effect added to jab line- reduce chance to strike through by 10%DPS-1) make manhandle and the offensive stance into an encounter proc2) make our crit/da and Aoe auto atk AA the same as every other fighter and not worse equivilant AA's (40%)3) make crane flock into 100% aoe auto atk and 15% chance to flurry reusable every 2 min duration 20 secs4) take our AA atks and make them upgrades to exsisting atks instead of new abilities. 5) remove the final ability from bruisers that is a hate gain/positional atk and change it into a passive buff that increases strikethrough by 20% and accuracy by 10%Tank-1) Make our rock skin AA in bruiser tree remove stun at rank52) make eagle shriek AA add 20% damage reduction when target is below 50%3) Give int line claw reversal the taunt % taunt crit % from fighter revamp 1.04) add in taunt crit and agression changes increase taunts from fighter change 1.05) remove the avoidance line buff from all fighters except brawlers allowing brawlers to have a useful individual buff.Itemization-fix the avatar weapon to add 15% deflection chancefix the Wu bp to add 10% damage reduction and 40 crit mitFinally merge bruiser and monks whats really the difference now? They are the same class minus 1-2 abilites.Place peel in the spot for control hate in the bruiser tree. Add cast speed instead of the 16% taunt % in the bruiser raid wide. Add haste to the bruiser offensive stance 40% and mid stance 20%. Can change my initial taunt % increaser to shrug off into a 5% hate transfer/siphon. Allow the bruiser heal to be cast on other. Add in a magic ward spell line. Allow the bruiser AA for indomitable will to not only reduce recast but add in additional cure effects. Add in 15% strikethrough to our mythical and then bruiser will have everything a monk has but better. Call the new class brawler. Then next expansion introduce the B34stlord class as a rogue based pet class that can use All brawler/select scout gear. The brawlers who betray can betray to the b34stlord after its unlocked on the server.</blockquote>Thumbs up to this post Gungo, very nice indeed, now to get the Dev's to read it also <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />On a side not, IF they where to merge Bruiser and Monk, what should they be called ? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

circusgirl

05-08-2009, 02:50 PM

Given that "monk" is the parent class from EQ1 that spawned bruisers, much like "druid" spawned furies and wardens and "cleric" spawned templers and inquisitors, I'd have to say that if they merged classes (which I think is highly unlikely) they'd have to call the result a monk.

Gilasil

05-08-2009, 08:29 PM

Or martial artist.Not that that's going to happen.

Dad

05-13-2009, 05:45 PM

Crabbok is in my brainI agree completely with the thread starting post.

TruhlsRu

05-13-2009, 08:41 PM

Having read all the posts people have mad ehere it seems we are all in aggreance that we need more DPS. When I rolled a bruiser 5 years ago I roled him with one thought in mind, to be the purest DPS tank out there period. He was to be able to tank instances and zones if needed but he was built entirely to be a DPS class. Begining with our Mtyhical and heading int TSO all of the "improvements" to bruisers have been to make us better tanks. Well Im sorry SOE but I could tank pretty well before these improvements came out. But none of it helps with our DPS which some say is too high but I tend to lean towards it is not enough. Yes our mythical has a nice proc ability but its not enough. The whole TSO tree for the most part is all about making bruisers better tanks, to make us live longer... and its Crap. If I wanted to be a pure tank then I would have rolled one. I want to be DPS.. the Juggernaut that we should be. able to hit harder, faster and dodge almost anything thrown our way since we are not encumbered by plate. Its a shame the Class Specific Brawler TSO gear is again all about making us better tanks and able to hold aggro better.. but in order for those of us who want to be a pure DPS bruiser we have to use the Wilderness set which is shared by other classess.. healers if I remember right. Look bruisers should be able to tank any heroic instance/zone with no problems at all to make us viable tanks for friends/guildies/PUG groups. We should not be able to tank Raid content period. Yes its nice to say " I tanked the sisters or I tanked a trash mob" but lets be serious, we wear leather and our mit is crap to the plate boys and since avoidance has been broken since launch we go splat too easy. If we want to be able to grab a mob and hold it until the plate tank is rezzed and rebuff then make Drag last longer, keep the 100% delection AA in TSO and let our myth clicky be used sooner. That way we can survive long enough to "bow out " to the plate tank and go on with the raid without a wipe and everyones happy. I agree with everyone.. rockskin is USELESS and has been FOREVER. The whole Interced line is a joke and no bruiser worth his salt has ever put a point in this. heck I dont even use interced on raids anymore unless its a healer because being 1 shotted from 12k to death sucks. SOE listen to us. Give us MORE DPS.. atleast on par with swashies/Brigs when we are offensive and give us better raid buffs/procs. When we go defensive let us be tankish but without the penalties that go with it. We control aggro with OUR DPS not taunts, the 3 we have are good and thats all we need. Another AOE wouldnt hurt either, one that doesnt cost us points to have. STOP using us as the nerf bats or nerfing us at all for that matter. You broke us a long time ago and here is your chance to fix us. AS someone said before Fix us once. Get it right on the first try.. And dear god dont halfass it, if your going to screw us again do it 100% not 50%, that makes it worse.