Inflation and the need for new currency.

[Grong]

<p>Broker prices are now into the hundreds of platinum for some items.</p><p>With each expansion the cost of goods and services increases.</p><p>I think it is time to remove copper and replace it with "radium", or some cool name, that is valued at 100P.</p><p>So now on the broker I can list my Undead Servant for 3R instead of 300P. </p><p>What do you think?</p>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p>Umm.. why?</p>

[Motzi]

<p>so things don't seem as expensive?</p><p>cause math is hard?</p><p>cause I want to be cool and brag about my 65 radium?</p><p>Seriously, I dunno.</p>

[Grong]

<p><cite>Akuu@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Umm.. why?</p></blockquote><p>1. Go back to top of thread.</p><p>2. Read</p>

[Tary]

<p>...that makes no difference, it's just another denomination of currency.</p><p>I cam into this thread expecting a proposal for EQ1-type alternate currency (Chronobines being the most recent one), in which there are literally different types of currency (Coin being the standard [plat], then you have different currencies such as Faycitum which don't have a real conversion rate to plat).</p><p>I <span style="font-style: italic;">hate</span> alternate currency.  Hate, hate, hate!I realize the necessity for it in an ultra-inflated MMO economy, but I think it's one of the most obnoxious things EQ ever came out with.  Not to mention the fact that it makes starting out on a new server, or just being a newb, very difficult.</p>

[Rashaak]

<p><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Broker prices are now into the hundreds of platinum for some items.</p><p>With each expansion the cost of goods and services increases.</p><p>I think it is time to remove copper and replace it with "radium", or some cool name, that is valued at 100P.</p><p>So now on the broker I can list my Undead Servant for 3R instead of 300P. </p><p>What do you think?</p></blockquote><p>I think it would be far easier to increase drop rates on overly priced items... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Calris]

<p>Considering coin is weightless now, there's really no reason for more than one denomination at all, much less adding a new one.</p>

[Motzi]

<p><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think it would be far easier to increase drop rates on overly priced items... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>No, what needs to happen is something needs to be added to the game to remove currency from circulation.</p><p>This is JUST AN EXAMPLE.</p><p>What if you could buy your mythical update from the shady swashbuckler for 150P?</p><p>Imagine how many 1000's of plat would leave the game daily if this was in.</p><p>What do you think would happen to master prices if significant coin in circulation was removed via some plat sink?</p><p>By example, I'm up to 6500 plat now with _nothing_ in game to spend it on.  The only reason I have to earn more plat is to go from #5 on server to #1...</p>

[Zarador]

<p>So how many players were getting 15 Gold for an Adept I level 5 spell back in the old days?</p><p>Were Ebon Clusters going for 1.5 Plat?</p><p>How many level 20 Masters were selling for 75 Gold back then?</p><p>I remember blowing almost everything I had on a level 50 something Necromancer Pet Master for 8 Plat.</p><p>When something costs a lot of coin, then the same thing sells for a lot of coin.  No need for a new currency to correct something that corrects itself.</p><p>Not to mention, there is no "Need" to purchase anything in a game that drops everything.  The only reason you purchase something is because you want it and you feel it's not worth your time or unobtainable based on your play style/ability.</p><p>What's a new player to think about all this?  I guess they may decide that they need to make coin in some way before they can spend coin in a big way.  They may even get the idea that they need to become self sufficient.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Akuu@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Umm.. why?</p></blockquote><p>1. Go back to top of thread.</p><p>2. Read</p></blockquote><p>1. Learn to count to 1 trillion.</p><p>2. Problem solved...</p>

[Rashaak]

<p><cite>Motzi@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think it would be far easier to increase drop rates on overly priced items... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>No, what needs to happen is something needs to be added to the game to remove currency from circulation.</p><p>This is JUST AN EXAMPLE.</p><p>What if you could buy your mythical update from the shady swashbuckler for 150P?</p><p>Imagine how many 1000's of plat would leave the game daily if this was in.</p><p>What do you think would happen to master prices if significant coin in circulation was removed via some plat sink?</p><p>By example, I'm up to 6500 plat now with _nothing_ in game to spend it on.  The only reason I have to earn more plat is to go from #5 on server to #1...</p></blockquote><p>*shrug*</p><p>I've never hit above 100plat and I don't really need to buy anything in game either. So...early congratz on hitting #1 on the server...</p>

[Zyxx]

<p>I agree.  I had someone in a group once give me a lecture about "needing" on an item that was clearly better than what I had because she thought I should just buy something better on the broker.  In a game where everything drops I see little need to pay plat for every item just because it's there.  I really try to earn my gear when I can.</p><p>The idea that getting rid of coppers does anything at all boggles my mind.  Some things are only worth a few coppers.  And what happens to the rewards for quests? You'd have to then up them all to golds, which would soon mean adding something above your "radium" so all those items listed for 300 radium (and it wouldn't take long for this to happen) could be listed for 3 of something else.</p>

[thephantomposter]

<p><cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Considering coin is weightless now, there's really no reason for more than one denomination at all, much less adding a new one.</p></blockquote><p>/agree</p>

[Grong]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Akuu@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Umm.. why?</p></blockquote><p>1. Go back to top of thread.</p><p>2. Read</p></blockquote><p>1. Learn to count to 1 trillion.</p><p>2. Problem solved...</p></blockquote><p>Now that is funny-thank you!</p>

[steelbadger]

<p>I dunno if I could live with only having 0.4 titanium pieces in my bank...</p>

[Zyxx]

<p>Now THAT is funny. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>thephantomposter wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Considering coin is weightless now, there's really no reason for more than one denomination at all, much less adding a new one.</p></blockquote><p>/agree</p></blockquote><p>I miss the good ol' days when coin had weight.  Handing a couple thousand coppers to random noobs, and watch them go into super slo-mo.  Ahhh....good times.</p>

[Nighrbringer]

<p><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Broker prices are now into the hundreds of platinum for some items.</p><p>With each expansion the cost of goods and services increases.</p><p>I think it is time to remove copper and replace it with "radium", or some cool name, that is valued at 100P.</p><p>So now on the broker I can list my Undead Servant for 3R instead of 300P. </p><p>What do you think?</p></blockquote><p>I think people like you setting prices like that are the reason I refuse to buy anything off the brokers.</p>

[Azekah1]

<p><cite>Nightbringer@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think people like you setting prices like that are the reason I refuse to buy anything off the brokers.</p></blockquote><p>omg, I'm literally rofl...</p>

[Calris]

<p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>thephantomposter wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Considering coin is weightless now, there's really no reason for more than one denomination at all, much less adding a new one.</p></blockquote><p>/agree</p></blockquote><p>I miss the good ol' days when coin had weight.  Handing a couple thousand coppers to random noobs, and watch them go into super slo-mo.  Ahhh....good times.</p></blockquote><p>This form of griefing was probably one of the reasons it was removed. While it's true that they could just delete the coins, it's still a cruel thing to do.</p>

[Grong]

<p>No telling the direction this thread will head in-</p><p>grabbing some popcorn.</p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This form of griefing was probably one of the reasons it was removed. While it's true that they could just delete the coins, it's still a cruel thing to do.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, they could delete the coins, refuse the coins, drop the coins in the bank, use any of the conveniently placed mailboxes to convert that heavy coin into more easily carried form.  Hardly 'griefing', and certainly not cruel, (at least when I did it).  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Dasein]

<p>There's a few things that need to be done to reign in the economy and make coin valuable again:</p><p>1. Get rid of loot drop value scaling with encounter level. This will keep the supply of coin entering the game fairly constant. Perhps there could be a small increase from tier to tier, like a 10% gain, so a T10 item would be worth double what a T1 item is worth.</p><p>2. Curtail raid coin drops. Having a bit of coin drop is fine, having every encounter drop multiple plat in addition to normal loot is creating rampant inflation. This will only get worse once T9 is introduced, and the T8 zones can be farmed even more easily.</p><p>3. Charge a fee for listing items on the broker. It doesn't need to be large, but there needs to be incentive to price items competatively.</p>

[Grong]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There's a few things that need to be done to reign in the economy and make coin valuable again:</p><p>1. Get rid of loot drop value scaling with encounter level. This will keep the supply of coin entering the game fairly constant. Perhps there could be a small increase from tier to tier, like a 10% gain, so a T10 item would be worth double what a T1 item is worth.</p><p>2. Curtail raid coin drops. Having a bit of coin drop is fine, having every encounter drop multiple plat in addition to normal loot is creating rampant inflation. This will only get worse once T9 is introduced, and the T8 zones can be farmed even more easily.</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">3. Charge a fee for listing items on the broker. It doesn't need to be large, but there needs to be incentive to price items competatively.</span></strong></p></blockquote><p>On #3-would you scale the fee to the price of the item?    1G for listing an item for 20G or 5P for listing an item 100P or soemthing like that?</p>

[Zyxx]

<p>There is a fee for listing on the broker, all items have a commission built in. That's certainly not helping as players price higher to make up for the fee.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Zyxx@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There is a fee for listing on the broker, all items have a commission built in. That's certainly not helping as players price higher to make up for the fee.</p></blockquote><p>The fee is paid by the buyer, not seller.</p>

[Mytilma]

<p>It would actually be a good idea to share the fee fifty-fifty between buyer and seller, the seller pays it when he places the item, the buyer when he buys it. Would make some people think twice about putting unsellable junk up for insane prices.</p><p>Not going to happen though, if only for the reason that there are salesman crates.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There's a few things that need to be done to reign in the economy and make coin valuable again:</p><p>1. Get rid of loot drop value scaling with encounter level. This will keep the supply of coin entering the game fairly constant. Perhps there could be a small increase from tier to tier, like a 10% gain, so a T10 item would be worth double what a T1 item is worth.</p><p>2. Curtail raid coin drops. Having a bit of coin drop is fine, having every encounter drop multiple plat in addition to normal loot is creating rampant inflation. This will only get worse once T9 is introduced, and the T8 zones can be farmed even more easily.</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">3. Charge a fee for listing items on the broker. It doesn't need to be large, but there needs to be incentive to price items competatively.</span></strong></p></blockquote><p>On #3-would you scale the fee to the price of the item?    1G for listing an item for 20G or 5P for listing an item 100P or soemthing like that?</p></blockquote><p>I'd rather see sellers need to actually sell enough product to support their stores. This means you'd need to make enough money to afford rent, and it would cost more for a larger storefront and more item storage. If you deal in a small number of high-priced items, like rare shinies or masters, you could get by with a few big sales, while dealing in commodities and consumables would see a steady flow of small sales. Unfortunately, global chat channels and fast travel make more sophisticated and involved commerce impossible.</p>

[Jesdyr]

<p><cite>Motzi@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, what needs to happen is something needs to be added to the game to remove currency from circulation</p></blockquote><p>They also need to reduce the amount of plat being dropped by raid mobs. There is way too much money being created and far too little being removed.</p><p>Early on in RoK I was 13th on the unrest leaderboard now with 2x the amount I am 28th. and I am sure there are people out there who dont show on the board due to plat being stored in shared banks or guild banks. That is a HUGE amount of inflation.</p>

[thephantomposter]

<p><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No telling the direction this thread will head in-</p><p>grabbing some popcorn.</p></blockquote><p>butter layered throughout please</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They also need to reduce the amount of plat being dropped by raid mobs. There is way too much money being created and far too little being removed.</p></blockquote><p>No thanks.  I wasn't a fan of spending 5pp + per night just to raid.</p><p>How about they fix the absurd amount of plat you can gain by doing solo quest chains?  After I leveled 70 to 80 in RoK doing all of the solo quests I had made over 125pp just from the solo quest coin rewards.  That should be reduced, raid mob coin droppage is fine since it actually costs money to raid.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Gage wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They also need to reduce the amount of plat being dropped by raid mobs. There is way too much money being created and far too little being removed.</p></blockquote><p>No thanks.  I wasn't a fan of spending 5pp + per night just to raid.</p><p>How about they fix the absurd amount of plat you can gain by doing solo quest chains?  After I leveled 70 to 80 in RoK doing all of the solo quests I had made over 125pp just from the solo quest coin rewards.  That should be reduced, raid mob coin droppage is fine since it actually costs money to raid.</p></blockquote><p>That was the first part - reducing the exponential increase in rewarda based on tier. Raiding costs money while learning new encounters, but when you can 2-group PR with no deaths and make 10+p in  a half hour, plus the loot drops, and do this every few days, it really cannot be compared to the quest rewards from RoK. The RoK quest rewards were useful because people had to equip themselves for a new tier - this means purchasing new spells, new gear, new food and drink, new potions, and all the other expenses that come with levelling up.</p>

[Jesdyr]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gage wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They also need to reduce the amount of plat being dropped by raid mobs. There is way too much money being created and far too little being removed.</p></blockquote><p>No thanks.  I wasn't a fan of spending 5pp + per night just to raid.</p><p>How about they fix the absurd amount of plat you can gain by doing solo quest chains?  After I leveled 70 to 80 in RoK doing all of the solo quests I had made over 125pp just from the solo quest coin rewards.  That should be reduced, raid mob coin droppage is fine since it actually costs money to raid.</p></blockquote><p>That was the first part - reducing the exponential increase in rewarda based on tier. Raiding costs money while learning new encounters, but when you can 2-group PR with no deaths and make 10+p in  a half hour, plus the loot drops, and do this every few days, it really cannot be compared to the quest rewards from RoK. The RoK quest rewards were useful because people had to equip themselves for a new tier - this means purchasing new spells, new gear, new food and drink, new potions, and all the other expenses that come with levelling up.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly.   But yes, the plat earned from quests is a bit high as well. Top that off with some MAJOR drop rate problems when TSO was released (not sure they fixed) with certain trash mobs dropping high value vendor trash, and it is no wonder the economy is messed up.</p><p>We need some good plat sinks. Guildhalls were a great start, but are really a drop in the bucket.</p>

[Motzi]

<p><cite>Gage wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They also need to reduce the amount of plat being dropped by raid mobs. There is way too much money being created and far too little being removed.</p></blockquote><p>No thanks.  I wasn't a fan of spending 5pp + per night just to raid.</p><p>How about they fix the absurd amount of plat you can gain by doing solo quest chains?  After I leveled 70 to 80 in RoK doing all of the solo quests I had made over 125pp just from the solo quest coin rewards.  That should be reduced, raid mob coin droppage is fine since it actually costs money to raid.</p></blockquote><p>Quest coin rewards are not repeatable.  The repeatable variety offer far less coin.</p><p>However, epic loot coin can be done frequently.  However, I'm not for lowering the plat drops off raid chests.  There isn't enough diversity in loot drops to begin with and with the coin, atleast everyone got something for showing up.</p>

[Azekah1]

<p><cite>Gage wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They also need to reduce the amount of plat being dropped by raid mobs. There is way too much money being created and far too little being removed.</p></blockquote><p>No thanks.  I wasn't a fan of spending 5pp + per night just to raid.</p><p>How about they fix the absurd amount of plat you can gain by doing solo quest chains?  After I leveled 70 to 80 in RoK doing all of the solo quests I had made over 125pp just from the solo quest coin rewards.  That should be reduced, raid mob coin droppage is fine since it actually costs money to raid.</p></blockquote><p>Wow, maybe you can by 1 Master with all that plat : P</p>

[Grumble69]

<p>I don't see the inflation.  Most of the auctions I'm seeing typically go in the 50-120pp range.  Yeah, there are some T8 masters with huge price tags on them, but I'm not seeing it trickle into other areas of the economy (which is my barometer for inflation).  Personally, I've always assumed they didn't really to intend to sell that master for 500-800pp.  Rather, it was a way to advertise something they had for trade.</p><p>IMO, it's a very very small minority of the population that's sitting on tons of plat, although I'm sure we're going to hear anecdotal stories now.</p>

[NardacMM]

<p>I have constantly proposed new ways to take money from the economy. Guild Halls are fantastic, but there is much more that needs to be done to control inflation.</p><p>Obviously adding in new 100p denominations isn't being proposed as a solution. That's not going to help anything. Ask the Zimbabweans who now have a trillion dollar bill and still have to use wheelbarrows to buy a loaf of bread.</p><p>That leads to my next point.. That things aren't too bad in our economy. Sure there is inflation, but it's nothing like we experienced in EQ1 where mobs dropped coin and NPCs didn't sell anything worthwhile to suck it out of the system.</p><p>A few more guildhall-esque inventions by the developers should really reign things in. I also fervently agree that there is no reason for mobs in instances to drop plat. I realy don't think that anybody would complain if T9 mobs in instances stopped giving out coin altogether.  On the other hand, coin should still drop at lower levels because there ARE still new players who need to make money the old-fashioned way.</p>

[Zarador]

<p><cite>NardacMM wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  On the other hand, coin should still drop at lower levels because there ARE still new players who need to make money the old-fashioned way.</p></blockquote><ol><li>Johnny New Player can't buy the Ebon Armor because it costs 2+ Plat per item.</li><li>The Crafter charges 2+ Plat because they bought the Ebon Clusters for 1.5 Plat a pop.</li><li>One Crafter charges 2+ Plat and makes bigger profit because they harvest their own rares. They however charge the same as the person who crafts with the purchased rares.</li></ol><ul><li>Johnny can harvest the rares and have a crafter make the items.  Takes a long time, may grow out of the gear before they have it all.</li><li>Johnny can start harvesting early and start selling all the stuff he does not need for nice amounts of coin, especially the colections.</li><li>Johnny can make his toon a crafter that specializes in the most expensive items he will need for his toon and save money on MC gear while making a profit off his skill.</li></ul><p>If the sea rises 6 inches per hour and the boat is 24 inches above the water line, how many hours will it take until the boat sinks?  Well hopefully the boat raises with the water and there is little change.  The economy in this game is pretty much the same.  Costs rise, but then again the return on your items rises with the costs to compensate.</p>

[Jesdyr]

<p><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Costs rise, but then again the return on your items rises with the costs to compensate.</p></blockquote><p>Mostly true .. The increases are not flat across the board. The only good way to make money for new players is to sell things to established players. Otherwise the new players are using a greatly outdated system until they hit the 70s.This is why in the actual coin drops from mobs are laughable compared to the value of Adept I's on the broker.</p><p>The rares market is a beast in itself. Inflation is a small part of it however the supply and demand part is huge. Ebon is the worst case. It is used for many things aside from just MC armor and is the hardest of the tiers to harvest due to node spawns. Before RoK the prices of ebon were much lower. The Pudding quest caused the demand and prices to increase and it never recovered.</p>

[Motzi]

<p>If Johnny buys a MC item or spell before level 70, he's wasting his money <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>There simply needs to be more things to spend coin on in game.  Inflation gets out of hand cause long term players amass piles and piles of coin with nothing to spend it on.  Hell, I might have 10k plat before we get a level increase and I have something to buy.  T9 masters at 1kplat anyone?</p><p>This of course favors us that have been here the longest most.</p>

[Armawk]

<p><cite>Gage wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> solo quest chains?  After I leveled 70 to 80 in RoK doing all of the solo quests I had made over 125pp just from the solo quest coin rewards.  </p></blockquote><p>I cant make the maths of that add up even remotely. what quests am I missing that give such absurd amounts of money away? I certainly did over 90% of kunark solo quests (more like 95 I believe) on one of my characters and didnt come close to 100 plat in coin rewards.</p>

[Jesdyr]

<p><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gage wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> solo quest chains?  After I leveled 70 to 80 in RoK doing all of the solo quests I had made over 125pp just from the solo quest coin rewards.  </p></blockquote><p>I cant make the maths of that add up even remotely. what quests am I missing that give such absurd amounts of money away? I certainly did over 90% of kunark solo quests (more like 95 I believe) on one of my characters and didnt come close to 100 plat in coin rewards.</p></blockquote><p>It isnt actually 125p .. I think it is more in the 50p range.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It isnt actually 125p .. I think it is more in the 50p range.</p></blockquote><p>Quest rewards sell for coin also.  I was talking overall plat gain from doing the solo questlings starting in KP and ending in JW from 70 to 80.  If you do all the solo quests you'll end up with around 125pp w/o ever doing a heroic mob or instance.</p><p>My point was to all these players complaining that raids drop coin remember that its split up between the raid members. Solo gains all go to the soloer.  The 3 repeatable Tupta faction quests reward between 15gp and 22gp each and you can do those everyday; also the ones in Grobb.</p><p>Plat is easy to make no matter how you play the game, and given how raiders are the minority (according to everyone on these forums), if SOE is going to look at plat gain they should look at where the majority of players reside.</p>

[Motzi]

<p><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gage wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> solo quest chains?  After I leveled 70 to 80 in RoK doing all of the solo quests I had made over 125pp just from the solo quest coin rewards.  </p></blockquote><p>I cant make the maths of that add up even remotely. what quests am I missing that give such absurd amounts of money away? I certainly did over 90% of kunark solo quests (more like 95 I believe) on one of my characters and didnt come close to 100 plat in coin rewards.</p></blockquote><p>I have done this 9 times now.</p><p>The act of soloquesting RoK yeilds between 124 and 158 plat.</p><p>This is from body drops from quest kills, quest reward items sold to vendor, and coin for the actual quests.</p><p>Start RoK with 1p on your toon and don't stop till you complete Soloquest selling all non-upgrades along the way.</p><p>See what you have left at the end, it will between those 2 numbers.</p>

[Finora]

<p><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Broker prices are now into the hundreds of platinum for some items.</p><p>With each expansion the cost of goods and services increases.</p><p>I think it is time to remove copper and replace it with "radium", or some cool name, that is valued at 100P.</p><p>So now on the broker I can list my Undead Servant for 3R instead of 300P. </p><p>What do you think?</p></blockquote><p>That gave me a good chuckle there. Thanks.</p><p>And just what good does this proposed change do? Not a thing. Perhaps if someone is counting challenged, it could help them better keep track of just how much coin they have. Other than that it doesn't do a thing.</p><p>And you couldn't get rid of coppers. What would one do with all the pages from Enchanted Lands and gnoll/orc bits otherwise? (pages selling for about 2 cp on my server and gnoll/orc bits typically for a copper or 2 above NPC vendor price, which is 7-8 cp depending on the vendor.)</p><p>Costs of goods and services rises because the amount of coin people have tends to rise.</p><p>Devs would be better off spending their time making a few largers (6-8 room) mansions with several different looks and perhaps overhauling the options for customization in the existing housing zones. These things would actually remove coin from the world. In theory, that would help with the costs of items.</p><p>Making it so people couldn't sell on the broker unless their rent was paid up would also drain some coin (unless they already did that when I wasn't looking).</p><p>In anycase, just changing the names would do nothing to help anything at all, unless people are just so really offended by seeing 300 pp rather than 3<insert coin name here>. 3, 300, 3000, makes no difference to me.  If the numbers start becoming cumbersome and getting cut off in the broker window, I imagine you might have a case, until then, there isn't a point.</p>

[Zarador]

<p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Costs rise, but then again the return on your items rises with the costs to compensate.</p></blockquote><p>Mostly true .. The increases are not flat across the board. The only good way to make money for new players is to sell things to established players. Otherwise the new players are using a greatly outdated system until they hit the 70s.This is why in the actual coin drops from mobs are laughable compared to the value of Adept I's on the broker.</p><p>The rares market is a beast in itself. Inflation is a small part of it however the supply and demand part is huge. Ebon is the worst case. It is used for many things aside from just MC armor and is the hardest of the tiers to harvest due to node spawns. Before RoK the prices of ebon were much lower. The Pudding quest caused the demand and prices to increase and it never recovered.</p></blockquote><p>Actually it tilts in their favor:</p><ul><li>The "quested armor" in the starter zones (TD actually) will easily surpasses anything that was available just a few years back. In fact, it will get most players well into the next teir with no need to purchase for 20+ levels.</li><li>The drop rate was adjusted to provide more Adept I spells quite a while back.</li><li>Transmuting entered the game and allows new players to dump the Treasured drops on the broker for 5+ gold that would have sold for a few silver to a merchant.</li><li>I beleive the spells/combat arts were also adjusted so the Adept I spells are suitable (maybe not preferred). </li></ul><p>I agree on the Ebon though (and Ruby) as a few nights of harvesting on our Mains (518 Harvesting Skill) netted us all the rhodiums we needed for the Warlock, as well as the rare roots for his armor while providing 4 Ebons and 3 Rubies for the Inquisitors armor and spells.  Ebon was running 1.5 Plat and Rubies 65 Gold.</p>

[Gisallo]

<p>I am certainly in favor of something that would deal with inflation but simply creating a new currency does't do it.  Zimbawae has tried this and their inflation is still climbing past something like 4000%.  The eliminated lower currencies and at now have only like thousand, million and I think now even billion dollar notes. </p><p>The only way it can work is if there is a plat sink where SOE sucks up the plat, or price controls implemented by SOE.  Price controls could cause the economy to crash and a plat sink would make people scream because the main people pouring plat into the sink would be those who became the "have's" during inflation and the "have nots" would be left out in the cold.  I left EQ before they introduced the alternative so I can't comment on that.</p>

[Allurana]

<p>It's supply and demand with the extra added bonus of how insanely easy it is to level now.</p><p>It makes sense that all the tier 8 stuff costs so much since people fly up to that tier so easily now.  Lots of demand and for the good stuff like Masters, a pretty small supply.</p><p>The thing that really baffles me is the level 20 masters that are on the broker for multiple plat.  Why?  The supply is definitely small but for the 2 hours you may have gotten any use out of that spell before out leveling it, WHY? would you spend that kind of money on it?</p><p>I know I wouldn't and I don't.</p><p>Here is my trick to have fun on the Blackburrow server and to wage my own personal 1 person war on the greed on the broker.  Anything I list on the broker I look up the lowest price it is being offered for and post my items for HALF (that's right, 50%) of that price.</p><p>My cash flow is insane, although I am not getting as rich as fast as some people may but the greed on the broker is running rampant and for what?  Items in a database in a server in California that we "earned" while playing a game for entertainment.</p><p>Come on folks, it's a freaking game and it is stuff you OBVIOUSLY don't want or can't use.   There is no need for the rampant greed in the game.  Turn on the news and watch what is happening in every country in every corner of the world right now - one common cause - GREED.</p><p>In summary, the answer is NO we do not need new currency.  We need less greed AND to the folks that have 6,500 plat and nothing to spend it on.  Give it away or maybe start an alt (I have 19 characters, I never have money long).  Insanely wealthy people in real life turn to philanthropy when they hit a point that they have far more money than they could ever use.</p><p>Get creative, help out a guildie, MAYBE even list some of that stuff you farm out of raids/instance/etc... that is brokerable for a bargain basement price.  You may just have helped someone out that couldn't afford the higher prices OR you may actually start to break the back of the professional farmers and buy/sell traders to make it not worth their while to try and continue bleeding the general server population dry with their greed.</p>

[shadowscale]

<p>every time someone says they have to much mony i always feel like asking for some. beleave me. i can find a use for it.</p>

[Dreyco]

<p>Better solution to inflation:</p><p>Add more money sinks to the game that tier according to who has the most access to platinum.</p><p>For example: Make it so that putting an item up for sale for 200 plat costs 10%, as in most markets.  The broker fee can be paid for by the person putting it up for sale.  It keeps unnecessarily pricing things for outragious numbers out of the game.</p>

[Calris]

<p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This form of griefing was probably one of the reasons it was removed. While it's true that they could just delete the coins, it's still a cruel thing to do.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, they could delete the coins, refuse the coins, drop the coins in the bank, use any of the conveniently placed mailboxes to convert that heavy coin into more easily carried form.  Hardly 'griefing', and certainly not cruel, (at least when I did it).  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Yes, because the newbies always know that it's going to bog them down and the people that do this to newbies do it near mailboxes/banks/etc. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> Nooo, and the people who give them the money aren't doing it at all for the purpose of harassing the newbie. I mean there are so many legitimate reasons to choose to convert the money to copper and pile it onto a naive newbie.</p><p>Like, say...umm...no, wait....Hmm, nope, can't think of one....</p>

[Calris]

<p><cite>Motzi@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, what needs to happen is something needs to be added to the game to remove currency from circulation.</p></blockquote><p>You mean like housing rent, broker fees, the goblin gambling game, fuel costs for crafting, repair costs, etc? Money sinks can only do so much. Over time, the currency in circulation is going to pile up.</p>

[Seidhkona]

<p><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Broker prices are now into the hundreds of platinum for some items.</p><p>With each expansion the cost of goods and services increases.</p><p>I think it is time to remove copper and replace it with "radium", or some cool name, that is valued at 100P.</p><p>So now on the broker I can list my Undead Servant for 3R instead of 300P. </p><p>What do you think?</p></blockquote><p>I think this proposal is rather like what happens when a third world country suffers price increases and then reprints its money.</p><p>Prices are set in-game by normal market forces, i.e., what other players will pay for an item.</p><p>Making new currency, making new denominations of currency -- none of that will change the pressure of pricing upwards. As long as (1) items are in demand, (2) relatively scarce, and (3) players have means of acquriing lots of in-game money, then prices will trend upwards.</p><p>Remember that raiding, if the raid splits the plat, is fairly rewarding in pure monetary terms in TSO. And high end characters (raiders or not) who have all their alts equipped and houses bought and decorated and mounts purchased -- well, when they get money, what are they gonna spend it on? Anything and everything! And they don't midn paying a bit more for things because hey, what else are they gonna spend it on?</p>

[Daedalus Raistlin]

<p><cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Remember that raiding, if the raid splits the plat, is fairly rewarding in pure monetary terms in TSO. And high end characters (raiders or not) who have all their alts equipped and houses bought and decorated and mounts purchased -- well, when they get money, what are they gonna spend it on? Anything and everything! And they don't midn paying a bit more for things because hey, what else are they gonna spend it on?</p></blockquote><p>This is why I'm fine with the currency as it is.</p><p>My first character I made on AB, had 10 plat by the time he was level 14, because he was selling shinies, raws, rares, treasured, etc.</p><p>This gave me the money I needed to keep my toon outfitted for a while, and as I levelled, I was able to put more and more expensive items on the broker.</p><p>Because the high end population bought some of my items, I made enough money to buy many masters for my class (Mystic, admittedly their masters are pretty cheap usually) as I made my way up the levels.</p><p>So even a new player, if they know how to work the broker and know what to sell, can make more than enough money because high end players and spending their money on low end stuff that new players/low levels are selling.</p>

[Palathas]

<p>There are a lot of items that are way over-priced and there are the occasional items way under-priced. I don't think that adding a different denomination will help as the prices will just keep climbing due to the fact that EQ2's ecconomy is not a supply/demand ecconomy. If it was then stuff that's been there at 140pp for months would have started to drop in price after a week of not selling due to lack of demand.</p><p>My idea is as popular as a bad smell in a submarine but due to the nature of the market is needed to create a more balanced pricing system. Every item should have a fixed base price which the player can add or subtract 50% to/from.</p><p>So if the base price of an item is 2gp then the player could set the price as 1gp all the way up to 3gp. That way you won't get these manic pricing swings that are being seen with gear of the same tier nor would you see 30gp for level 15 advanced crafting books.</p>

[GrunEQ]

<p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">There is a base price...it's what the vendor will pay.  Sometimes those high prices on the broker are there because the person really doesn't want to sell that item.  Some people use it to show off, and others use it as another bank slot.   This does not negate the arguement that yes there are some greedy people, but I find, that when it comes to collections, L&L, that one could always go do it themselves if they aren't willing to pay the offered prices.  I think when adepts and masters became transmutting fodder, it drove the prices up from silver to gold and plat.  Very bad game design there IMO, especially for new players as most start at 5g each for adepts now.  As for new currency, meh, if you have thousands of plat, I guess the progression of a new type coin would be ok.</span></p>

[Jesdyr]

<p><cite>GrunEQ wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">I think when adepts and masters became transmutting fodder, it drove the prices up from silver to gold and plat.  Very bad game design there IMO, especially for new players as most start at 5g each for adepts now.  </span></p></blockquote><p>Actually .. that is very helpful to the new players once they learn to sell adepts on the broker and not to a merchant. It is one of the main ways that plat flows from the established players to the new players. (this has already been pointed out in this thread).</p><p><cite>Palathas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">My idea is as popular as a bad smell in a submarine but due to the nature of the market is needed to create a more balanced pricing system. Every item should have a fixed base price which the player can add or subtract 50% to/from. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;"> So if the base price of an item is 2gp then the player could set the price as 1gp all the way up to 3gp. That way you won't get these manic pricing swings that are being seen with gear of the same tier nor would you see 30gp for level 15 advanced crafting books.</span></p></blockquote><p>You would never be able to get those items. They would be gone as soon as they hit the broker and we would have people spamming the char channels looking for the items offering much more than the cap. Putting something like this in would hurt the game for new players. They would have no way to earn plat to compete with more established players.</p><p>As far as supply and demand. Yes the EQ2 economy is supply and demand. Broker prices are not what the item is worth. It is actually what the item is not worth since no one has purchased it yet. The problem is the people with the items are not motivated to sell. If someone has 1000p and nothing to spend it on, then they have no real motivation to sell the item. Instead they leave it at the high price just incase someone is willing to pay it. I personally do this all the time. In reality it is just hording.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>I honestly think the real problem right now is that the broker, which in the days after launch was an <span style="font-style: italic;">incredibly</span> efficient money sink, is all but obsolete.  As things currently stand, the broker is used for essentially three things: 1)master spells 2)shinies and 3)crafting raws.  In the higher teirs, there is no point in posting anything else for the simple reason that all the gear and items are no-trade.  Items that are priced extremely high, like masters, almost always cause people to meet the seller in person or go to their house to buy it, which results in no broker fee and therefore no money sink.  What we need is more mid-range items on the broker--the type of item that isn't trivial in cost but isn't so expensive as to force people to run to the seller's house.</p><p>My solution?  <span style="font-weight: bold;">Less no-trade gear</span>.  </p><p>The really fantastic drops should of course remain no-trade, but the items that will be upgrades for folks say, in-between mastercrafted and T1/T2 voidshard gear should all be tradeable.  This way they get listed on the broker, sold, and the handy-dandy broker fee takes a portion of that cashflow out of circulation.  </p>

[Motzi]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My solution?  <span style="font-weight: bold;">Less no-trade gear</span>.  </p><p>The really fantastic drops should of course remain no-trade, but the items that will be upgrades for folks say, in-between mastercrafted and T1/T2 voidshard gear should all be tradeable.  This way they get listed on the broker, sold, and the handy-dandy broker fee takes a portion of that cashflow out of circulation.  </p></blockquote><p>While i agree with your principle, I don't agree that this implementation will work.  The marketplace for gear between MC and T1 shards is simply too small a subset vs the amount of this stuff that is looted and vendored currently.  The price for said gear on the market would floor to the transmuted value in no time.</p><p>No-Trade needs to be removed off everything short of raid gear.  This will place a larger subset of gear on the broker to a large enough pool of buyers that an actual marketplace can exist.</p>

[Tary]

<p><cite>Wardari@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There are a lot of items that are way over-priced and there are the occasional items way under-priced. I don't think that adding a different denomination will help as the prices will just keep climbing due to the fact that EQ2's ecconomy is not a supply/demand ecconomy. If it was then stuff that's been there at 140pp for months would have started to drop in price after a week of not selling due to lack of demand.</p><p>My idea is as popular as a bad smell in a submarine but due to the nature of the market is needed to create a more balanced pricing system. Every item should have a fixed base price which the player can add or subtract 50% to/from.</p><p>So if the base price of an item is 2gp then the player could set the price as 1gp all the way up to 3gp. That way you won't get these manic pricing swings that are being seen with gear of the same tier nor would you see 30gp for level 15 advanced crafting books.</p></blockquote><p>So you want price floors, and price ceilings, basically?</p><p>Meh, sounds alright to me.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I honestly think the real problem right now is that the broker, which in the days after launch was an <span style="font-style: italic;">incredibly</span> efficient money sink, is all but obsolete.  As things currently stand, the broker is used for essentially three things: 1)master spells 2)shinies and 3)crafting raws.  In the higher teirs, there is no point in posting anything else for the simple reason that all the gear and items are no-trade.  Items that are priced extremely high, like masters, almost always cause people to meet the seller in person or go to their house to buy it, which results in no broker fee and therefore no money sink.  What we need is more mid-range items on the broker--the type of item that isn't trivial in cost but isn't so expensive as to force people to run to the seller's house.</p><p>My solution?  <span style="font-weight: bold;">Less no-trade gear</span>.  </p><p>The really fantastic drops should of course remain no-trade, but the items that will be upgrades for folks say, in-between mastercrafted and T1/T2 voidshard gear should all be tradeable.  This way they get listed on the broker, sold, and the handy-dandy broker fee takes a portion of that cashflow out of circulation.  </p></blockquote><p>Another thing to remember is that players are becoming more self-sufficient, and established guilds can take care of just about any need for participation in the economy, thus removing any plat sink provided by the broker. For example, our guild has a steady supply of masters coming in from raids, instances and other drops. We have all the needed crafters to make food/drink, potions, any Adept 3 spells and any other craftable item. Thus, there's no need to buy these things on the broker. Guild hall amenities have only made it that much easier for our guild to be effectively cut off from having to participate in the economy as a whole, and this is true for many other guilds. Thus, we generate tons of plat, but never have to spend any. We can fund our guild hall upkeep entirely through raiding, and even that is a trivial cost given the size of our guild.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So now on the broker I can list my Undead Servant for 3R instead of 300P. </p><p>What do you think?</p></blockquote><p>No offense, but I think this is one of the most pointless suggestions ever made on this forum, as it would change nothing whatsoever.</p>

[Rashaak]

<p>Just like with any economy real of fake, inflation will be present. There are way to many items in this game to set a floor or ceiling for each and every item that is tradeable, as much as we would like prices regulated in game don't expect to happen.</p><p>Prices fluctuate, prices rise, prices fall it's the nature of the beast...</p>

[Trynnus1]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I honestly think the real problem right now is that the broker, which in the days after launch was an <span style="font-style: italic;">incredibly</span> efficient money sink, is all but obsolete.  As things currently stand, the broker is used for essentially three things: 1)master spells 2)shinies and 3)crafting raws.  In the higher teirs, there is no point in posting anything else for the simple reason that all the gear and items are no-trade.  Items that are priced extremely high, like masters, almost always cause people to meet the seller in person or go to their house to buy it, which results in no broker fee and therefore no money sink.  What we need is more mid-range items on the broker--the type of item that isn't trivial in cost but isn't so expensive as to force people to run to the seller's house.</p><p>My solution?  <span style="font-weight: bold;">Less no-trade gear</span>.  </p><p>The really fantastic drops should of course remain no-trade, but the items that will be upgrades for folks say, in-between mastercrafted and T1/T2 voidshard gear should all be tradeable.  This way they get listed on the broker, sold, and the handy-dandy broker fee takes a portion of that cashflow out of circulation.  </p></blockquote><p>Another thing to remember is that players are becoming more self-sufficient, and established guilds can take care of just about any need for participation in the economy, thus removing any plat sink provided by the broker. For example, our guild has a steady supply of masters coming in from raids, instances and other drops. We have all the needed crafters to make food/drink, potions, any Adept 3 spells and any other craftable item. Thus, there's no need to buy these things on the broker. Guild hall amenities have only made it that much easier for our guild to be effectively cut off from having to participate in the economy as a whole, and this is true for many other guilds. Thus, we generate tons of plat, but never have to spend any. We can fund our guild hall upkeep entirely through raiding, and even that is a trivial cost given the size of our guild.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>I have my "consumable" needs taken care of by the guild. We trade masters internally first and foremost (small DKP exchange).</p><p>A suggestion for the broker to reduce some of the hording or high price lists would be a "listing cost" where by the seller pays a % to list the item on the broker. Take it one step further and impliment a charge for changing the price.Combine this with less no-trade tags on non-raid gear and there would be items on the broker (not just shinies and masters and L&L) and more plat being removed from the economy. I have all my masters and dont have any alts, there really is not anything to spend the plat I worked for on except channel auctions (most of the gear is not an upgrade anyways)</p><p>I farm shinies and sell then, I have done this for 3 expansions and do very well at it. Changes to the "blue" shinies in RoK and the changes to the lotto on shinies changed the dynamic of farming shinies but did not stop people from doing it. I guess the main reason for all the no-trade was to prevent "the dreaded plat farmer", those selling plat for RL money.No solution will make everyone happy or cover all possibilities. But that does not mean we dont try.What is needed is a way to take money out that does not burden people with less plat but also involved those with more plat.</p>

[Zarador]

<p><cite>Wardari@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There are a lot of items that are way over-priced and there are the occasional items way under-priced. I don't think that adding a different denomination will help as the prices will just keep climbing due to the fact that EQ2's ecconomy is not a supply/demand ecconomy. If it was then stuff that's been there at 140pp for months would have started to drop in price after a week of not selling due to lack of demand.</p><p>My idea is as popular as a bad smell in a submarine but due to the nature of the market is needed to create a more balanced pricing system. Every item should have a fixed base price which the player can add or subtract 50% to/from.</p><p>So if the base price of an item is 2gp then the player could set the price as 1gp all the way up to 3gp. That way you won't get these manic pricing swings that are being seen with gear of the same tier nor would you see 30gp for level 15 advanced crafting books.</p></blockquote><p>Meet me at Torch #2 or by Shady for that spell that used to sell on the broker for 40 Plat.  Give you a deal on it for 60 Plat, no questions asked.</p><p>Can you list a Mythical or No Trade item on the Broker? Nope, but people sell them all the time.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Under Priced:</strong></span></p><ul><li>I priced it wrong, typo error.</li><li>I was so busy undercutting that I went below Vendor price.</li><li>I want to move it quick, better to make some change than none.</li></ul><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Over Priced:</strong></span></p><ul><li>I based your value of the item on my net worth.</li><li>Nothing that sells legitimately is over priced since it went to the person who was willing to pay that price.</li><li>Sometimes something is "over-priced" because of someone using RMT. </li><li>Sometimes it's a Guild listing the items available to their members.</li><li>Sometimes it's a trick. Someone on our server keeps listing the water that has the same name as the fertilizer water for 1 Gold.  Players think their getting a great deal on some "idiot" that under priced the fertilizer until they discover it's 1 silver value. </li></ul><p>Just like in real life, if your play style does not allow you to afford what your expectations think you deserve, then you have three choices:</p><ul><li>Learn how to obtain the item with your own skills.</li><li>Increase your income to be able to afford what you feel you must simply have.</li><li>Learn to do with what you have without sweating the stuff you don't have.</li></ul>

[circusgirl]

<p>Frankly, charging people just to LIST items on the broker is a terrible idea that will only stifle the economy and make the problem worse as commerce moves from the channel that removes cash from the world (broker) into channels that don't (like selling masters and shiny collections in the level channels).  What we need to do is encourage more people to use the broker.</p>

[Dreyco]

<p>That's the problem with the broker system as it is.  There is no risk involved.  People can price things for exhorbitant amounts of coin, and then if someone undercuts them one copper, it becomes a race to see who can outcopper the other person.</p><p>What happens with this? Things are innately priced higher.</p><p>When things are innately priced higher, and there is no reason for them to lower, they only sell to the higher buyers.  AKA: Those who have massive amounts of coin.</p><p>This keeps the circle of flowing coin and commerce only among the upper escelon.</p><p>Which means that things are innately more expensive because the only buyers are those with the massive amounts of coin.</p><p>Which keeps prices higher for most goods, services, etc.</p><p>AKA: Inflation.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Which means that things are innately more expensive because the only buyers are those with the massive amounts of coin.</p></blockquote><p>Oddly enough, I've never had "massive amounts of coin", yet I manage to find worthy things on the broker that even I can afford.</p>

[Zarador]

<p><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's the problem with the broker system as it is.  There is no risk involved.  People can price things for exhorbitant amounts of coin, and then if someone undercuts them one copper, it becomes a race to see who can outcopper the other person.</p><p>What happens with this? Things are innately priced higher.</p><p>When things are innately priced higher, and there is no reason for them to lower, they only sell to the higher buyers.  AKA: Those who have massive amounts of coin.</p><p>This keeps the circle of flowing coin and commerce only among the upper escelon.</p><p>Which means that things are innately more expensive because the only buyers are those with the massive amounts of coin.</p><p>Which keeps prices higher for most goods, services, etc.</p><p>AKA: Inflation.</p></blockquote><p>There is NO problem with the free market broker system. </p><ul><li>You list something for a price you want. </li><li>Someone may buy it at that price because they want it and can afford it.</li><li>In the interim, someone else may check the price of your item and list their item for slightly lower.</li><li>Someone else might check the price, see a low price that they can make a profit off of, buy it and then resell it.</li><li>Yet another player might use their town location and the reduced commission from the veteran sales crate to sell it for a slightly higher profit while also under-cutting your price.</li><li>Other players also perceive when an item is priced well below what most players are normally willing to pay for the item, then hold their price while buying up the lower priced items. If I know that a Rare normally sells for 1 Plat and people are listing it for 50 Gold, I figure I can take advantage of all the under-cutting, buy the rares and list them at say 95 Gold. </li></ul><p>Everything that is for sale dropped somewhere, was made by some crafter or was harvested. No one is forced to purchase a single item in the game.  No one is disinfranchised because they can afford to purchase an item that someone else owns the current rights to. </p><ol><li>If I feel that a Rough Ruby is worth 2 Plat, that's my right to price it that way.</li><li>If You feel a Rough Ruby is worth 2 Plat, you can buy it from me.</li><li>If everyone lists the Rough Ruby for 40 Gold, no one will buy mine.</li><li>If you feel that even 40 Gold is too high of a price, you can go out and harvest them.</li></ol><p>Item "value" is based on the players opinion as to what their time/effort was worth.  If I can purchase the "Rough Ruby" for 40 Gold and I need 20 of them; but I have the ability to make say 10 Plat easily in a day and hate harvesting, 40 Gold is a "value".  I can "barter" my time for a different product that someone else puts a "value" on and buy the 20 Rough Rubys off another player.</p><p>If I'm a new player, or one who does not produce a steady income, then 40 Gold may be out of my range. I then either need to harvest my own, learn to make coin or learn to do without.</p><p><strong>BOTTOM LINE:</strong>  Until you purchase my item, it remains my item.  I can price it anyway I want, give it away, craft something with it, sell it to a merchant,  destroy it, whatever I please, it's mine.  <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Greed</strong></span> is thinking that I need to price my item at what you deem to be a "fair" price. It's not yours, so you hold no rights or claim to it.</p>

[Wulfgr]

<p>I've never had much trouble with coin.  I bought MC armor at 32, bought new MC at 52, and 62, then i bought a set at 72.  I am in mostly adept 3 spells a couple masters.  I always seem to have coin, really now that I am doing RoK quest lines.</p>

[Kordran]

<p>A lot of people seem to seriously misunderstand the game's economics here. The pricing for items on the broker is meaningless because it neither increases or decreases wealth in a macroeconomic sense; it merely shuffles it from player to another. Inflation exists, not because of player-to-player transactions, but because the game is generating more money than players can reasonably spend. Raiding, in particular, pumps an enormous amounts of plat into the economy.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Inflation exists [snip] because the game is generating more money than players can reasonably spend.</p></blockquote><p>Precisely.</p>

[Munty]

<p>I've read this thread with interest and I figured I'd throw a suggestion out there.  We have an obviously booming economy (a little too booming for some by the sounds of it), so why not introduce taxation as a means to remove currency from circulation?  After all, we are all citizens of a city, and those cities, castles, keeps, etc. all require upkeep, so I think it would still be within the spirit of the thing.  It would obviously be staggered, so the more you earn the more you pay, so low-earners are not overly burdened.  </p><p>I don't claim to have completely thought out all the ramifications of this, but like I say, I thought I'd throw it out as a suggestion.</p>

[Jesdyr]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A lot of people seem to seriously misunderstand the game's economics here. The pricing for items on the broker is meaningless because it neither increases or decreases wealth in a macroeconomic sense; it merely shuffles it from player to another.</p></blockquote><p>No .. they are using broker prices as a means to measure the effects of inflation. The problem with inflation is that it causes the price of goods to raise with it and therefore lowing the value of the currency. NPCs dont adjust for it, but players do.</p><p>And I think you underestimate the amount of plat the broker removes from the game. Many people are not going to travel to save 10%-20% on a 1p or less item and there is a huge amount of transactions in this range.</p>

[Grong]

<p>Very nice discussion on this issue-although it has morphed into something a little more weighty then my suggestion-I am enjoying everyone's ideas of the games economy and broker system.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's the problem with the broker system as it is.  There is no risk involved.  People can price things for exhorbitant amounts of coin, and then if someone undercuts them one copper, it becomes a race to see who can outcopper the other person.</p><p>What happens with this? Things are innately priced higher.</p><p>When things are innately priced higher, and there is no reason for them to lower, they only sell to the higher buyers.  AKA: Those who have massive amounts of coin.</p><p>This keeps the circle of flowing coin and commerce only among the upper escelon.</p><p>Which means that things are innately more expensive because the only buyers are those with the massive amounts of coin.</p><p>Which keeps prices higher for most goods, services, etc.</p><p>AKA: Inflation.</p></blockquote><p>There is NO problem with the free market broker system. </p><ul><li>You list something for a price you want. </li><li>Someone may buy it at that price because they want it and can afford it.</li><li>In the interim, someone else may check the price of your item and list their item for slightly lower.</li><li>Someone else might check the price, see a low price that they can make a profit off of, buy it and then resell it.</li><li>Yet another player might use their town location and the reduced commission from the veteran sales crate to sell it for a slightly higher profit while also under-cutting your price.</li><li>Other players also perceive when an item is priced well below what most players are normally willing to pay for the item, then hold their price while buying up the lower priced items. If I know that a Rare normally sells for 1 Plat and people are listing it for 50 Gold, I figure I can take advantage of all the under-cutting, buy the rares and list them at say 95 Gold. </li></ul><p>Everything that is for sale dropped somewhere, was made by some crafter or was harvested. No one is forced to purchase a single item in the game.  No one is disinfranchised because they can afford to purchase an item that someone else owns the current rights to. </p><ol><li>If I feel that a Rough Ruby is worth 2 Plat, that's my right to price it that way.</li><li>If You feel a Rough Ruby is worth 2 Plat, you can buy it from me.</li><li>If everyone lists the Rough Ruby for 40 Gold, no one will buy mine.</li><li>If you feel that even 40 Gold is too high of a price, you can go out and harvest them.</li></ol><p>Item "value" is based on the players opinion as to what their time/effort was worth.  If I can purchase the "Rough Ruby" for 40 Gold and I need 20 of them; but I have the ability to make say 10 Plat easily in a day and hate harvesting, 40 Gold is a "value".  I can "barter" my time for a different product that someone else puts a "value" on and buy the 20 Rough Rubys off another player.</p><p>If I'm a new player, or one who does not produce a steady income, then 40 Gold may be out of my range. I then either need to harvest my own, learn to make coin or learn to do without.</p><p><strong>BOTTOM LINE:</strong>  Until you purchase my item, it remains my item.  I can price it anyway I want, give it away, craft something with it, sell it to a merchant,  destroy it, whatever I please, it's mine.  <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Greed</strong></span> is thinking that I need to price my item at what you deem to be a "fair" price. It's not yours, so you hold no rights or claim to it.</p></blockquote><p>That's all well and good, but the market in EQ2 is broken in that there is no incentive to lower prices. Sellers do not have any real need to sell their product - even pure crafters can operate solely by doing writs. Unfortunately, the broker does not show any global sales history - it would be interesting to see the overall trends in prices, and actual sales. What I suspect we would see is very sticky pricess maintained by de facto cartels.</p>

[erin]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's all well and good, but the market in EQ2 is broken in that there is no incentive to lower prices. Sellers do not have any real need to sell their product - even pure crafters can operate solely by doing writs. Unfortunately, the broker does not show any global sales history - it would be interesting to see the overall trends in prices, and actual sales. What I suspect we would see is very sticky pricess maintained by de facto cartels.</p></blockquote><p>That's not true.  There is an incentive to lower prices.  Just watch as a new expansion starts flooding the market.  At first, prices are outrageous, for early adopters.  Then as supply goes up, prices come down.  What was 5pp is now 50gp or less.</p><p>If prices rise, then more people are incentivized to produce/supply that product, and prices go down again.</p><p>Even the cost of a mythical has gone down significantly since the early days.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>erin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's all well and good, but the market in EQ2 is broken in that there is no incentive to lower prices. Sellers do not have any real need to sell their product - even pure crafters can operate solely by doing writs. Unfortunately, the broker does not show any global sales history - it would be interesting to see the overall trends in prices, and actual sales. What I suspect we would see is very sticky pricess maintained by de facto cartels.</p></blockquote><p>That's not true.  There is an incentive to lower prices.  Just watch as a new expansion starts flooding the market.  At first, prices are outrageous, for early adopters.  Then as supply goes up, prices come down.  What was 5pp is now 50gp or less.</p><p>If prices rise, then more people are incentivized to produce/supply that product, and prices go down again.</p><p>Even the cost of a mythical has gone down significantly since the early days.</p></blockquote><p>RoK and even EoF shinies are still listed on the broker for about the same price for years now. Others, like some of the rarer bones for the original collection quests have steadily increased in price over the years. Beyond the initial decrease in price as supply picks up, the players very quickly settle on a price and that price will stick pretty effectively.</p>

[agnott]

<p>EQ1 plat is 10 times more devaluated then here and it seems to run fine. From what I can tell an average player can have over 1 million plat in the bank.</p><p>If this was detemental to the economy, you would see a fix there first. No?</p>

[Zarador]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There is NO problem with the free market broker system. </p><ul><li>You list something for a price you want. </li><li>Someone may buy it at that price because they want it and can afford it.</li><li>In the interim, someone else may check the price of your item and list their item for slightly lower.</li><li>Someone else might check the price, see a low price that they can make a profit off of, buy it and then resell it.</li><li>Yet another player might use their town location and the reduced commission from the veteran sales crate to sell it for a slightly higher profit while also under-cutting your price.</li><li>Other players also perceive when an item is priced well below what most players are normally willing to pay for the item, then hold their price while buying up the lower priced items. If I know that a Rare normally sells for 1 Plat and people are listing it for 50 Gold, I figure I can take advantage of all the under-cutting, buy the rares and list them at say 95 Gold. </li></ul><p>Everything that is for sale dropped somewhere, was made by some crafter or was harvested. No one is forced to purchase a single item in the game.  No one is disinfranchised because they can afford to purchase an item that someone else owns the current rights to. </p><ol><li>If I feel that a Rough Ruby is worth 2 Plat, that's my right to price it that way.</li><li>If You feel a Rough Ruby is worth 2 Plat, you can buy it from me.</li><li>If everyone lists the Rough Ruby for 40 Gold, no one will buy mine.</li><li>If you feel that even 40 Gold is too high of a price, you can go out and harvest them.</li></ol><p>Item "value" is based on the players opinion as to what their time/effort was worth.  If I can purchase the "Rough Ruby" for 40 Gold and I need 20 of them; but I have the ability to make say 10 Plat easily in a day and hate harvesting, 40 Gold is a "value".  I can "barter" my time for a different product that someone else puts a "value" on and buy the 20 Rough Rubys off another player.</p><p>If I'm a new player, or one who does not produce a steady income, then 40 Gold may be out of my range. I then either need to harvest my own, learn to make coin or learn to do without.</p><p><strong>BOTTOM LINE:</strong>  Until you purchase my item, it remains my item.  I can price it anyway I want, give it away, craft something with it, sell it to a merchant,  destroy it, whatever I please, it's mine.  <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Greed</strong></span> is thinking that I need to price my item at what you deem to be a "fair" price. It's not yours, so you hold no rights or claim to it.</p></blockquote><p>That's all well and good, but the market in EQ2 is broken in that there is no incentive to lower prices. Sellers do not have any real need to sell their product - even pure crafters can operate solely by doing writs. Unfortunately, the broker does not show any global sales history - it would be interesting to see the overall trends in prices, and actual sales. What I suspect we would see is very sticky pricess maintained by de facto cartels.</p></blockquote><p>But why is there a need for an incentive to lower prices? </p><ul><li>Can you still get the attunable gear on your own in the game? </li><li>Still harvest the rares that you want?</li><li>Still collect the collectables you desire for your collections?</li><li>Still craft your own items with your own characters?</li></ul><p>The Market is not broken, it's working exactly as it should.  If someone feels they want something off the broker that they can get on their own, their paying for that item based on what the seller feels someone is willing to pay.</p><p>Wow, the same guys keep marking up the EoF rare collectables for 2-5 platinum.  Maybe I should go out there and collect my own, maybe even sell some for a tidy profit.  Nope, I got better things to do with my time than waste it collecting items, I want to purchase all that stuff.  Step in line, your not alone and the sellers who "waste" hours collecting that stuff already figured that out. Thing is,  their targeting the guy with all the coin who wants that luxary of filling out the collections via the Broker.</p><p>You can make a cup of Starbucks coffee, the exact same coffee they sell, for about 10 cents.  You can go to Starbucks where they made that coffee for you and buy a cup for about $2.50.  You can spend a few days in EoF collecting all those rare collectables and have it simply cost you your "valuable" time, or you can go to the Broker and pay someone for their "valuable" time.</p><p>I'm not sure that I understand the "even pure crafters can operate solely by doing writs".  Anyone can operate 100% in the game on their own.  They could wind up in full fabled with all masters without ever taking a single trip to the Broker.  If it's on the Broker, that means someone, somewhere was able to obtain the item.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>but the market in EQ2 is broken in that there is no incentive to lower prices.</p></blockquote><p>If there's no incentive to lower prices, why do I do it every time I use my broker???</p><p>The incentive is to sell the things you want to sell. Yes, I will lower my prices if it means selling a few harvest rares or shinies, because real play money in my pocket is far better than potential play money sitting on my broker, & I've found that lowering prices is much more conducive to selling things than raising them or even leaving them stagnant.</p><p>Where the market is seemingly broken is in tradeskills, most of which now seem to be made gratis for guildies, rather than being sold on the open market. But that's a different issue.</p><p>I'm not sure, however, what all this subsequent discussion has to do with the OP's perceived "need" for a new currency. It seems to me that the subject of this thread has devolved FAR from its original purpose.</p>

[Vonotar]

<p>The only way to control 'Mud-flation' is to ensure that dropped/looted coin and sell-to-vendor prices are balanced verses the amount of coin that is taken out of the game by vendor purchases, broker fees, guild hall upgrade purchases etc etc.</p><p>Whether this means that vendors will stop buying vendor trash when they collectively run out of 'money' or whether this means that the prices will adjust according to the amount of money in the world I don't know.</p><p>But at the moment the 'game' is effectively printing more and more money, without enough of it coming back.</p>

[STLBluesN]

i wouldnt mind a single denomination, but its only out of laziness and not wanting to click the mouse a few more times to add silver to my price. single denoms work fine. when i played SWG, there was only credits. something could cost 100 or 1mil credits, only difference is youre not pushing extra buttons for p g s or c. not really practical to change up now. best way to fix it is put in decimals in the window. instead of having to price at 3p 46g 99s youd hit 3.46.99. as it is you see prices only in 2 denoms. p and g. g and s, etc. its all semantic and a matter of prefference. if one or the other had to be done, id vote for one denom over adding a 5th.

[erin]

<p><cite>STLBluesNut wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i wouldnt mind a single denomination, but its only out of laziness and not wanting to click the mouse a few more times to add silver to my price. single denoms work fine. when i played SWG, there was only credits. something could cost 100 or 1mil credits, only difference is youre not pushing extra buttons for p g s or c. not really practical to change up now. best way to fix it is put in decimals in the window. instead of having to price at 3p 46g 99s youd hit 3.46.99. as it is you see prices only in 2 denoms. p and g. g and s, etc. its all semantic and a matter of prefference. if one or the other had to be done, id vote for one denom over adding a 5th.</blockquote><p>Just FYI, if you enter 34699sp in the pricing window it will do the conversion for you.</p>

[gatrm]

<p>There's nothing wrong with the market as it is.  For the most part stuff on the broker is not significantly more expensive than it was a year ago or three years ago, or when I started playing, shortly after launch. </p><p>My first month, I looted a Master spell (T2) that I sold for around a plat.</p><p>I remember thinking I was getting a great deal when I bought rough pearls for a plat and a half.  Ebon clusters have often been over a plat and even approaching two at differing times throughout the game's life.  It used to be impossible to get a palladium cluster for much under a plat. </p><p>The only thing that has really changed is the price of Masters and junk treasured stuff.  Masters seem more rare in t8 than they were in previous tiers, but that may simply be because people are transmuting the stuff they don't need.  The cost for t8 manas is also very high- a lot of fabled stuff has to be muted to get those manas, and those manas are used to add very nice improvements to gear.  Transmuting has driven up the price and value of Masters and treasured items, not people's greed. </p><p>The thing I don't get is that if a transmuter can break down an item to it's core components and build something new from those components, then why can't they also improve those components?  Alchemists have a recipe where they can get higher tier dusts (used to make potions and poisons) from lower tier dusts.  Transmuters should have similar recipes to improve the quality of their components...Maybe it would take 8 powders and 5 infusions to get a mana....or something. </p><p>Another thing..of all you who are complaining about stuff being listed too high....any of you ever list something on the broker that you are not sure the value of?  Any of you ever have the only one of a particular spell and not know what to put it for?  Sometimes I do.  I will list something at a ultra high price, say 200p, not expecting it to sell, and leave it for a few days.  Sometimes it does sell and good for me.  Usually, after a few days, I'll drop the price, and keep dropping it at small intervals until it does sell. </p><p>If there's something on the broker that you want and cannot afford, send the seller a tell.  I bet the price is negotiable.</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>STLBluesNut wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> instead of having to price at 3p 46g 99s youd hit 3.46.99. as it is you see prices only in 2 denoms. p and g. g and s, etc. its all semantic and a matter of prefference. </blockquote><p>If I see something I want listed for a price like this, and someone else listing the same item for 3.5p, I will buy the 3.5p one. To me, this is stupid.</p>

[Mytilma]

I don't want to rant against the game economy, I can cope with it just fine, but sometimes the constant inflation gets on my nerves too. It's like it was described above - the game constantly prints money and offers not enough worthwile stuff to get the money out of the economy. It would be possible to limit the influx of money. Just limit the coin on the market on a server to, say, 200pp per character on that server, just to name a number. Make the vendor prices for trash loot drop, the more money goes out. Or make repairs more expensive. Why not let the mender have his share if people get richer? Or the city, in terms of house and GH rents? Increase the limit of coin in the economy by 10-20% per expansion to keep people playing. By the way, that was handled good in the last few expansions. In the lower levels money increase from tier to tier was about 4:1, now it's much less. Might even -gulp- "nationalize" the broker for standard stuff (raws, rares, collectibles etc.), like it's in Guild Wars (or at least was, didn't play it for 1-2 years). More stuff enters the market? Prices drop automatically. Stuff getting scarce? Prices rise automatically. I'm aware that many won't like that, but hey, just brainstorming here.

[Kalthaza]

Couple of suggestions. 1. Re-introduce costs for travel. Griffons, bells, horses - just charge a tiered fee dependant on level. 1-10 = 5s, 10-20, 10s etc etc. lots of players use insta travel, therefore lots of little transactions will remove lots of little coin. Oh, and increase the price of wizard/druid portal tokens to at least 10x their current value. 2. Introduce a casino-type amenity for guild halls and maybe a building in each major city. Offer varying games of chance and allow different amounts of betting - that'll remove a lot of plat from the game, and would probably be quite fun. (And before the anti-gambling brigade spout their usual crap - It isn't real money. And the goblins are at least the same.) 3. Perhaps harvested items should need to be 'refined' before being allowed to be sold on the broker. Not much individual cost, but again, little transactions amount to a good plat-sink.