need troubador advise

[Anfauglith]

<p>I recently became in charge of raids for our guild, and one of the problem I've seen is that our troubador is really under parsing compared to dirges. He usualy does about half the dps of group dps specced dirge. He has his mythical and some VP gears. And is usualy grouped with fury or inqui, 3 mages (one of them beeing an illu when we can affor it) and assassin. concidering our best dirge is doing about 4k dps zw, how much should I expect the trouby to do?</p><p>He's currently specced:</p><p>str 4,6,4,8,1</p><p>wis 4,4,6,8,1</p><p>int 4,4,6,7</p><p>and has a total of 178aa</p><p>What advise could you give to make it better? I know taking the ae avoidance isn't done by most of troubies but I still find it pretty usefull to help mage group survive on a possible crit ae on engage as we just started working on tso.</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p><cite>Onucia@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I recently became in charge of raids for our guild, and one of the problem I've seen is that our troubador is really under parsing compared to dirges. He usualy does about half the dps of group dps specced dirge. He has his mythical and some VP gears. And is usualy grouped with fury or inqui, 3 mages (one of them beeing an illu when we can affor it) and assassin. concidering our best dirge is doing about 4k dps zw, how much should I expect the trouby to do?</p><p>He's currently specced:</p><p>str 4,6,4,8,1</p><p>wis 4,4,6,8,1</p><p>int 4,4,6,7</p><p>and has a total of 178aa</p><p>What advise could you give to make it better? I know taking the ae avoidance isn't done by most of troubies but I still find it pretty usefull to help mage group survive on a possible crit ae on engage as we just started working on tso.</p></blockquote><p>About 2.5K with an occasional 3K. I have on occassion hit 5K, but that is few and far between.  Btw the fury does nothing for him for the most part on his own dps at least nothing like the Inquisitor should be. And he's not there to do damage, he's there to increase everyone else's. If you want a bard that makes parse, kick your Troub and go with all Dirges. Of course, your mages might get a little [Removed for Content] off. Also, tell him to get rid of his Bladedance spec if you guys are raiding Shadow zones. That's what the fury is there for with the Turtle Shell. Have him beef up either his own stats in AGI or the Groups in INT. I killed my Bladedance Spec in my mirror the day after Shadow came out. The STR line for me is the most useless of the five and a huge waste of AA that could be used to a lot better effect in almost any other line.</p><p>Btw if your Fury doesn't have Turtle, give them the option of getting it or getting booted. Tired of hearing Furies complain that it hurts thier DPS to get it. Waaaa. If they want to dps, have them role an Assassin. Never seen such a butt hurt class. Also you stated that he gets an Illusionist if you can afford it? Where is your primary Illusionist at then? OT group? You are kidding right? More and more raid leaders are unfortunately treating the Mage group more like the "Leftover" group. First they do the MT group (as they should) then the OT group, then the Scout group....and finally the mage group with the leftovers. I also hate having the Assassin in my group (even though I always do). Talking about someone who brings nothing to the party, except DPS. OH OH OH wait, I get a poison buff from him....woohoo!... Would rather have another wizard or warlock if I could get them. That's ok....once the rest of GU51 becomes active, you'll have to find a new home for your assassin anyway since our group De-hate is getting nerfed to almost nothing. Guess assassins will be begging Coercers for thier 31% dehate after that. They are also about number 23 on my JC list, no that's not right, more like number 10-12. Dirges know better then to ask for it, most healers except the MT defiler/mystic never ask for it, can't remember the last time an Illusionist ask....so yeah...about number 10 on JC list. (No SK, Bruiser, Conjurors in guild, and the Ranger and  Necro almost never get to raid, so really limited on who gets ahead of the assassin for JC.)</p>

[Kulaf]

<p>Really need all three trees but my advice would be that he store two specs in his mirror.  One for Bladedance(which should only be used while learning new encounters) and then his every day DPS spec.</p><p>For the Bard line DPS wise I would go:</p><p>AGI - 4 4 4 8</p><p>STA - 4 4 4 8</p><p>WIS - 4 4 6 8 1</p><p>INT - 4 1</p><p>In the Shadowed line make sure he is putting 5 in Strengthened Links.  That will help protect the casters a lot more consistantly than BD.</p><p>But bottom line no Troub is going to keep up with a like geared Dirge.  The group makeup for Dirges usually favors melee output and their Mythical epic just cranks their auto attack damage up to realms beyond the reach of a Troub.  For comparrison.......exclude the auto attack damage when you compare the parses between the two classes.</p><p>Better yet.....add up all of that Perfection of the Maestro damage and add it to the Troubs DPS total.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Anfauglith]

<p>Jeepned:</p><p>First of all the reason an assassin is in mage group is because he hugely gains from all the haste in there. It happens when we have 2 assassins + 1 swashy in raid which is about 66% of the time.</p><p>Fury gives a nice proc to 1 melee in group so when we don't have a 2nd assassin the trouby can get it.</p><p>As for the primary illusionist...right now we have 1 illusionist, 1 trouby and 2 dirges (and 1 coercer which is for mt group to help aggro). we sometimes get a 3rd dirge (and should have it on regular basis soon) but if we only have 3 bards, the illu gives more dps to the 4th group that would be left unbuffed otherwise. (we had some big changes in our roster recently and are still trying to fill the gaps now)</p><p>Kulanae: Thanks for the idea. Seams like a pretty good dps spec. And yeah I don't except our trouby to do as much as our dirge, but twice less seamed a bit extreme.</p><p>How do you think the mirror spec with bladedance should be like?</p>

[Inggy]

<p>With equal gear the Troub should be pretty close to the Dirge.  Dirge has considerably more auto attack whereas the Troub has more spell/CA damage.</p><p>Will your Troub keep up with the Dirge, sometimes.  Places like Palace the Troub should be really giving the Dirge a run if not beating him.  50% of the other bards parse means either gear, group, AA, or player isn't working.</p><p>Typical AA</p><p>Wiz 4,4,6,8,1</p><p>Int 0 or (4,1)</p><p>Sta 4,4,4,8</p><p>Agi 4,4,4,8</p><p>Str 4,1</p><p>My preference is Turnsrike over Rhythmblade.  You can always lower Poison proc and get both.</p><p>His group should have Mystic (survivability) or Inquisitor (DPS mod), Illy (haste and tandem when available), Wiz (Ro's and FG), Assassin (toxins), or Brigand (no DPS gain for troub with this class), and another Mage. </p><p>As for using the Fury...  don't, fine for keeping mages up at range but will not help keep the Troub alive when hes in beating on the mob and getting whacked.  If hes not in beating on the mob then that's probably his DPS issue.  Just look at his auto attack delay time > 3 seconds with Mythical equiped Illy = not beating on the mob often enough.</p><p>Blade Dance spec = 10% - 20% + loss of DPS.</p>

[Inggy]

<p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><snip> <span style="text-decoration: underline;">I have on occassion hit 5K</span>, but that is few and far between.  Btw the fury does nothing for him for the most part on his own dps at least nothing like the Inquisitor should be. And<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> he's not there to do damage</span>, he's there to increase everyone else's. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">If you want a bard that makes parse, kick your Troub and go with all Dirges</span>. Of course, your mages might get a little [Removed for Content] off. Also, tell him to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">get rid of his Bladedance spec</span> <snip></p></blockquote><p>I'm not here to start a flame but I have concerns over these parts of your comment.</p><p>If you have the gear, buffs, etc you should be breaking 4-5k on trash and on most of the named.  If not, figure out why.  My group is typically, Necro (yes we still use one, Conjy too), Illy, Mystic, Assassin or Brigand, Wizard.  I usually recieve Illy haste and tandem if available, if Assassin Toxins, if Brig /meh debuff buff /sad face, and Wiz Ro's.</p><p>One way to look at this is not your Troub's DPS total but total percentage of raid DPS from the Troub, ie 5-8%.  So for say a 100K raid wide DPS the Troub should be hitting ~5k.   Adjust to suit your particular raids DPS output.</p><p>I managed a decent 6.3k up to Switchmaster in Palace the other night Blade Dance spec'd and we were 3 grouping the zone.  Typically I'm in the 5.5-6.1k range for same.  Am I happy, no, I'm still shooting for a 7k+ to Switchmaster but I doubt thats going to happen till we get another Troub as we lost our second (any good Troubs LFRG?).  The RL will not be kicking me for wanting to DPS.</p><p>Compare to last August when level 76 I started raiding VP on this guy, I was only managing 1.4-1.8ZW's (can you say buff-bot and a paitent RL) till I obtained levels, AA, gear upgrades, and lot of dead training walls/dummies to work out spell/ca order.</p><p>You are there to do damage and contribute to the raids DPS.  "Kick your Troub for another Dirge"?....I guess thats fine if you don't run with any mage but otherwise 2-Troubs with Mythicals = almost contstant PotM, 3-Troubs = PotM heaven <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>Yes get rid of BD spec.  It can be helpful if the recast timer was reasonable, which its not.  Strengthened Links is a much better choice and Countersong.</p>

[Kulaf]

<p><cite>Onucia@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Kulanae: Thanks for the idea. Seams like a pretty good dps spec. And yeah I don't except our trouby to do as much as our dirge, but twice less seamed a bit extreme.</p><p>How do you think the mirror spec with bladedance should be like?</p></blockquote><p>Sorry it took a while to get back to this.  This is my BD spec:</p><p>STR - 4 8 4 6 1</p><p>STA - 4 4 4 8</p><p>WIS - 4 5 6 8 1</p>

[peepshow]

<p>Why put 8 points in the attack and not the increase of stats ?</p>

[Mew]

<p>The inquisitor will not help the troub's dps specifically.  Inquisitors can help the group with Fanaticism.  But the troub is there to buff the group, too.  The way to see if the troub is doing his job right is to look at how the whole group's performance is going and not just his/her personal dps.  Are the right people getting JC'd on time?  Are the mage's dps values going up?  Blade Dance is ok if you don't have a Fury or when you are working a new raid mob and don't have the strat down just right.</p>

[Tea67]

<p>inquisitors have a single target conc using dps + hp buff (group wide with TSO set),</p><p>a group wide buff which procs damage on any succesfull attack,</p><p>and an amazing group buff with tso AAs which has a 25% chance to proc with each critical attack</p><p>a 10 seconds buff on the group which nets a 100% chance to proc damage on attacks for 10 seconds.</p><p>And then there is fanaticism,</p><p>an inq is you're best choice for a dps group, even more thanks to the cure all on the myth,</p><p>and the break free of control effects spell.</p><p>On a side note as long as the troub has the right buffs up and is using J cap and PotM let</p><p>her be, the class is so f boring to play that you should be gratefull she is raiding with you.</p><p>edit : and yes , unless it's a 20 second fight on a 4+ encounter, an equally geared/skilled dirge will</p><p>parse a lot more than a troub.</p>

[Anfauglith]

<p>As I said I don't expect him to to parse as high as the bard...but I also know how boring it can be to be nothing but a buff bot isn't good either for motivation.</p>

[Tea67]

<p>If he parses between 2 and 4% of your raidwide then he is doing fine,</p><p>less than that he needs to press more buttons and/or engage fights sooner.</p><p>I'd suggest 2 macros, one for single target and one for encounters, with various</p><p>attacks, and spam it.</p><p>Again on a side note this reminds me of the full mage group,</p><p>where the troub had to stick to the mages for buffs and ended having crappy dps.</p><p>Such wonderfull game design...</p>

[Rayche]

<p>It's interesting to see people comparing Post-Mythical Dirges to Troubys.</p><p>The Trouby Mythical was really focused at making the people around them more powerful. The Dirge was half and half. Raidwide Chime makes the raid better, but they also have a proc on there that basically ignores the defense of the mobs.</p><p>Our raid MT is a fairly well geared 200 AA SK. (VP/SoHate and some TSO gear.)</p><p>I dueled him with my Mythical Bruiser and couldn't land a hit (Ok, maybe like 5 hits). After a 30 second fight I was beat. (I'll work on kicking his butt later...)</p><p>We all laughed and then for a joke he dueled one of our Mythical Dirges. The Dirge procced his Mythical on the first or second hit.</p><p>The fight was over 5 seconds later with a dead and quite surprised SK.</p><p>Your Trouby should be parsing around 3k zonewide. He should also have the AA's in the EoF tree that add a ward to his Elemental and Arcane resist songs. 5 points into Strengthened links. His group should DPS quite well and have a fair degree of survivability. If this is all happening, then life is good. They should at least have Turnstrike so they can move into AOE range and JCap the MT AOE Blocker... things like that.</p>

[Ballads]

<p>Specking out of blade dance might give him what 3-700dps from poison,bump and the use of stealth attack. I suspect more the troub is just not pushing enough buttons or missing auto attack chances. As a test have them try this.</p><p>Make a spam macro using in game macros.</p><p>On it put these abilitys in this order,</p><p>HO starter, Bright Blade, Reverberating shrill, Thunderous Overture , Ceremonial Blade, Draining Incursion , Mighty Bellow, Tap Essecne, Depressing chant, Thunderous Overture, Reverbertating Shrill.</p><p>Per pull Jcap brigand then PoTM (taking second Jcap right before Potm falls) . Open the encounter with depressing chant then kians, spell rebuff is ya want, Then SPAM that new macro key and  Jcap people. Its not the best and highest dps order to follow and you can get higher numbers free handing and properly timing your spells recast, but the macro will keep you always casting a good spell if not the best one. Free hand painful laminations and your debuffs for procs on ae encounters.</p><p>Next make sure your in Melee auto attack range of the mob. Make combat warnings  text Red in you main chat log or some window you always watch. Some go as far as to make act send them a beep when they get to far out. Turnstrike yourself before Stun,kb,stifle, High damage AE's any time its up.</p><p>Troub dps is most hurt by dead time. To be most effective you most always be doing something never a second not casting or attacking. You should always have a spell/ca qued up and be auto attacking after everyone.</p>

[Ristan]

<p>In VP I parse about 2.5-3k, in Place almost 4k with illy buffs.  My Raid grou (I'm the raid leader) is: Troub, Fury, Illy, Wiz, Wiz, Warlock</p><p>Sometimes we swap a wiz for a coercer, which ups my dps even more.  I'm sitting at 158 aa.</p><p>We also run with 3 dirges in our other 3 groups, typically we parse about even, depending on the fight.   If my spell order gets thrown off, if they have to rez, if we get stunned ect...makes a difference of course, but the dirges will parse zw about 2-400 above me.</p><p>I have no vp gear (one ring) but I do have alot of other fabled from soh and other tso zones and teir 2 shard set, and my myth.</p><p>my bard spec is:</p><p>Wiz 4,4,6,8,1</p><p>Int 4,1</p><p>Sta 4,4,4,8</p><p>Agi 4,4,4,3</p><p>Str 4,1</p><p>I tried to max out poison but found I liked turnstrike too much to dump it.</p><p>I used blade dance up till VP...then I dumped it since it didn't seem to do much anyways after I dumped it my dps increased considerably.</p><p>Make sure that your troub is getting buffed, and proc gear is nice for troubs.  Also melee and spell casting gear is a must, as well as spell/ca order seems to make a difference too, but getting out of BD spec would be a start.</p><p>DPS isn't hard, you just have to make a concious effort to do it, and get out of "I'm a buff bot" mentality.</p><p><img src="http://kyrainetheranger.tripod.com/starsigone.gif" /></p>

[Ballads]

<p>I'm a buff bot! I parse about 9k on palace trash zone wides, with high parses over 12k. My group is Illy,fury,me wiz,assassin, summoner. Yes my gear is top end good, and my guild parses 200k plus on those mobs. Just saying troubs can parse amazing with right gear and raid setting. Maybe not somethign you can get now but somethign to reach for. Push more buttons, auto attack, its not complex tbh.</p>

[Mytilma]

My troub is in a casual guild, currently mid-zones in tomb and palace and at Kultak in stronghold. I have 3 TSO raid set pieces, 3 t2 shard pieces and the shadow woven chestplate from maestro (sometimes I swap it for the t2 shard chest tho). I have mythical and incandescent blade (still) and the ethernaut drum. My jewelry is subpar. I'm parsing around 5-6k at the moment, among bards most times only beaten by the guild's best dirge by a few hundred. I have done up to 7.5k on palace trash, in a good group setup and with some voidbane stuff. My guild does 100-130k. Generally, and as rule of a thumb, I think a troub should be able to be at least in the mid of the parse, and do 4-5% of the guild's dps. If he does less than that, make him work on it. If he does more, do your damnedest to keep him.

[Mytilma]

Another thing that popped into my mind, while thinking of it, since you said he has 178 aa: Did he do the "big" respec to max out his shadows tree, especially the last line? If not, make him do it, even if it costs some money. Cost me more than 50pp (did it at 173), but it's well worth it and increases dps dramatically.

[deadcowfunk]

<p>Just remember the troub makes the caster groups dps better, therefore don't be overly concerned with his/her dps(unless it totally sucks under 1k). As long as your troub is JC'ing and debuffing then he/she is adding to your overall dps. A well played troub can beduff the crap out of mobs "if" they are not just botton pushers.</p><p>Troubs are not dirges therefore our dps is spread around in the group/raid. My point is "if" your troub is playing smart by using all his/her abilities and JC'ing, debuffing, etc... then they are doing more dps then your parse reflects upon them.</p><p>My main is a troub so I know what I'm talking about <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Mytilma]

While technically true, to be honest, that's a bit too much buffbot mentality for my gusto. Songs are click on, click off things, only the right choice matters. Cap you cast once in 30 seconds (ok, or bit less). Perfection you cast every 1.5-2 minutes. And inbetween? The things you describe can be done while watching a movie and reading a book. If I have the potential to contribute 5k or more to my guild's output, I would not be worth my spot if I didn't. Yes we make mage groups better. But if I suck so much that another good sorcerer in the group would not only compensate my tiny dps but also my buffs, I would be out and rightly so.

[deadcowfunk]

<p>Clearly you are looking at this wrong. Troub personal DPS is not the end all be all of a raiding spot. As long as your troub plays smart using JC, POM, debuffs, etc... your raid DPS goes up. If you are only looking at a troubs single DPS then you are looking at just one aspect of being a troub.</p><p>If you troub sucks and is a mindless button pusher then remove him/her. If you troub is always beduffing(green debuffs and attack debuffs), JC, POM, and in between attacking them what is the issue? So what if I do not parse 6k on my raids because I make the casters parse more DPS and the whole raid DPS more w/POM. My point is "if" you learn what your spells actually do and their durations etc... and manage your casting/attacks w/JC & POM then you will see a difference.</p><p>I feel you are looking at this from the perspective of single DPS vs taking into consideration the troubs ability to create DPS via being a troub.</p>

[Mytilma]

<p><cite>deadcowfunk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Clearly you are looking at this wrong. Troub personal DPS is not the end all be all of a raiding spot. As long as your troub plays smart using JC, POM, debuffs, etc... your raid DPS goes up. If you are only looking at a troubs single DPS then you are looking at just one aspect of being a troub.</p><p>If you troub sucks and is a mindless button pusher then remove him/her. If you troub is always beduffing(green debuffs and attack debuffs), JC, POM, and in between attacking them what is the issue? So what if I do not parse 6k on my raids because I make the casters parse more DPS and the whole raid DPS more w/POM. My point is "if" you learn what your spells actually do and their durations etc... and manage your casting/attacks w/JC & POM then you will see a difference.</p><p>I feel you are looking at this from the perspective of single DPS vs taking into consideration the troubs ability to create DPS via being a troub.</p></blockquote><p>And what if I am debuffing, capping and potming and still parsing 5-6k? Green debuffs last over a minute. It's not like that keeps me busy. Red debuffs fit right into the casting order.</p><p>Yea, clearly I am looking at this wrong.</p>

[Kulaf]

<p><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm a buff bot! I parse about 9k on palace trash zone wides, with high parses over 12k. My group is Illy,fury,me wiz,assassin, summoner. Yes my gear is top end good, and my guild parses 200k plus on those mobs. Just saying troubs can parse amazing with right gear and raid setting. Maybe not somethign you can get now but somethign to reach for. Push more buttons, auto attack, its not complex tbh.</p></blockquote><p>What Ballads illustrates is that it's all relative.  NPU raids what 99% of players will never raid, Avatars. With the gear his guild has access to he is pushing 9k+......but the rest of his guild is pushing higher as well.  My guess is that he falls in the same tier of DPS in his guild as most of the other troubs do in their respective guilds.</p><p>You should always strive to do as close to max damage as you can with the gear you have and always strive to improve your gear.  The DPS will follow as long as you are doing your job.</p>

[Inggy]

<p>Yep that 9-10K personal DPS puts Ballads at ~4-5% of raid DPS at 200K DPS.  Which is where a Troub should be in the overall raid DPS output as stated before. Providing the Troub has gear, typical group buffs, actually getting in and hitting the mob, etc.</p><p>If you're not putting out 4-5% then look into why.  Press more buttons, get in and melee.  If its gear then the raid / member needs to look at fixing that.  If its slow engagement or out of melee range then the Troub needs to fix that.  If its buffs then RL needs to address it.</p><p>My group knows I JC someone on pull every pull and every time its up unless its trash and the mobs is < 40% HP.  I use a fixed order of 5 macros (my group) and a 6th for me (potm refresh).  So pull #1, JC member #2, PotM, JC me, pull #2, JC member #3 and #4 etc.  Repeat.</p><p>Working in a JC or potm takes me a whole 2-3 seconds every 25 secs on JC and 1-1.5mins on PotM.  That leaves alot of time to be debuffing, nuking <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, and melee.</p><p>You're not going to be toping the parse regardless but the bards as whole should be competing against each other that way you keep each other honest.  You are here to contribute your personal DPS to the raids, you are not just a buff  bot.</p><p>O</p>

[soulljah]

<p>Too many people seem to still consider bards/chanters "utility" when in fact there really isnt jack for us to do besides dps in raids.</p><p>Seriously a one armed mentally challenged monkey could do our "utility in raids". Cast buffs, click maestro then hit  a j cap macro whenever its up. That takes up what a whole 5 secs or less total during a fight? Sooo what are you supposed to do for the rest of it? Easy put out as much damage as you possibly can.</p><p>So yeah as long as a troub is doing those two basic things, the only way to measure whether they are playing up to their capacity is dps. </p><p>My last palace zw trash was 7k zw (3 tso pieces no avatar gear), the other troub in the raid did 3.5k zw. Raid-wide dps was only about 140k. So if we are just utility then me doubling his parse doesnt mean anything because we both casted j cap and maestro when needed right? I think not</p>