Guild halls - The BIG negative side effect is now clearly showing! :( [Archive]

Baccalarium

02-22-2009, 01:24 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>It seems that the introduction of Guild Halls and it's negative effect is clearly starting to show.All cities and other hubs that were once busy with people roaming around, eventho it was just standing around the broker... are now mere ghost towns.Whole Quenos (North, South, Harbor) is just plain dead!I personally think TOO much functionality has been added to the Guild Halls and so a large bit of MMO Spirit and immersion has been litterly murdered in the game!Everyone is hiding inside them now, only to come out to just go into another hiding place in form of dungeons.Hence, even with these gathering bots in Guild Halls, you hardly see people even bother gathering in the zones anymore. Adding more to the emptiness feel of the zones.A real shame! As a lot of servers didn't had that really high of a population already and now with these guild halls the servers just feel empty and void of people. *sigh*I really wonder if the Devs, when designing the Guild Halls and the obtainable functionalities, ever thought about what it would do to the game, the community spirit on the server, the social aspect and the immersion factor?They clearly never thought about the Negative Impact on zone population (especially City hubs) it would have (wich is now clearly showing).Another great idea that has gone too far? I personally think so.</blockquote>Perhaps what you found enjoyable about the cities, I now find much more enjoyable about the guild hall. Now I have this wonderful gathering point of a guild hall, but the big difference there is that when I wave to someone or say something to them they actually respond back. Even the visitors that sneak in once in a while will usually respond. To me the cities before were just a bunch of strangers, and only a few of them would strike up a conversation, or even acknowledge me unless they were players I'd adventured with on other days.Feel free to stop by in any of the many guild halls that allow visitors, and I'm sure you'll find more of the hustle and bustle your missing, and probably even folks that would strike up converstations.The usefulness of the guild hall has made them the nexus from which you get to see your guildies regularly. This is a vast improvement over trying to get to gether with guildies of a wide range of levels and factions in some corner of the world, or apartment somewhere.

Cele

02-22-2009, 01:33 PM

The difference I see is my tiny toons, like my fae, no longer have to try to look through huge rear ends of mounts to target the broker. They now have to look through the huge body of our guild burynai digger cuz he always feels the need to sit on the counter in front of our guild broker. Most likely, he is encouraging us to buy stuff to feed him. No matter where someone moves him, he ends up sitting on that counter again. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />As for the game dying, I thought so, too. Until this weekend. Friday evening I rolled a new baby fae wizzy. Darklight Woods has been PACKED all weekend, with both people rolling alts and quite a few obviously new players asking questions.So full in fact, some of us were grouping to complete solo content rather than compete for mobs and wait for respawns.

guillero

02-22-2009, 01:37 PM

<cite>Baccalarium wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>Perhaps what you found enjoyable about the cities, I now find much more enjoyable about the guild hall. Now I have this wonderful gathering point of a guild hall, but the big difference there is that when I wave to someone or say something to them they actually respond back. Even the visitors that sneak in once in a while will usually respond. To me the cities before were just a bunch of strangers, and only a few of them would strike up a conversation, or even acknowledge me unless they were players I'd adventured with on other days.Feel free to stop by in any of the many guild halls that allow visitors, and I'm sure you'll find more of the hustle and bustle your missing, and probably even folks that would strike up converstations.The usefulness of the guild hall has made them the nexus from which you get to see your guildies regularly. This is a vast improvement over trying to get to gether with guildies of a wide range of levels and factions in some corner of the world, or apartment somewhere.</blockquote>I was never against guild halls.What I am against and what has basically killed the immersion factor of this game is all the amneties you can buy in your guild hall!All the big guilds, hence even the smaller ones, can buy all the amneties they need. From brokers, to harvest bot, to writ givers, to bankers, to bell portal, to basically everything for crafting as well!All big guilds and the organised smaller guilds have everything they need stuffed in their guild hall now and have no need to venture into the cities or other hubs anymore!The only reason people appear from their Guild Hall is to go RAID or quest. So they basically go from one hiding instanced spot into the other.You can all say what you want, but the need to go to a broker, a city NPC, a writ giver, a crafting place, go out and gather resources.... it all add to the Immersion factor! It livened up the zones, cities and hubs!It gave you a feeling you were actually playing an MMORPG, rather then a Single player RPG like it is now!All a new player sees when he comes of the Trial Island is one empty zone after the other! Will be turned off and leave the game again.Cities are very important hubs and a very important Activity indicator for people to get an idea about how the server and the game itself is doing.It was the problem with Vanguard and why it had such a hard time keeping players tick to the game. The world was so vast and there were so many starting areas that it turned people away, because they hardly ever saw another player and felt alone.The Isle of Dawn was a huge step in the right direction and you see a lot of players roaming around lately. Even the hubs on the main continents you enter when leaving the Isle of Dawn are bustling with activity and players right now.EverQuest 2 has now become the exact oposite of Vanguard. All the active cities and hubs have turned into ghosttowns.

Kaalenarc

02-22-2009, 01:41 PM

I am a huge proponent of the halls myself. I think that while it may have been somehow reassuring to folks to see 20 ppl standing at the broker, those people largely did not interact, and didnt have a reason to do so. Im not a roleplayer, but if you like roleplay, then plan a public event - time and again the RP community as responded (festivals of Harmony/Discord etc).With the functionality of guild halls, we no longer have endless cries of "QH is laggy fix it!!!!!!" and theres a more substantial reason for people to value their guild. It promotes camraderie and gives people something to work together to achieve for the group as a whole. I certainly wouldnt want that functionality reduced in any way.

Armironhead

02-22-2009, 01:49 PM

guillero

02-22-2009, 01:53 PM

<cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am a huge proponent of the halls myself. I think that while it may have been somehow reassuring to folks to see 20 ppl standing at the broker, those people largely did not interact, and didnt have a reason to do so. Im not a roleplayer, but if you like roleplay, then plan a public event - time and again the RP community as responded (festivals of Harmony/Discord etc).With the functionality of guild halls, we no longer have endless cries of "QH is laggy fix it!!!!!!" and theres a more substantial reason for people to value their guild. It promotes camraderie and gives people something to work together to achieve for the group as a whole. I certainly wouldnt want that functionality reduced in any way.</blockquote>They could have come up with plenty of other ideas and functionality for guild halls to make them viable enough!They just had to look at one of their other games named Star Wars Galaxies!Public Brokers, Crafting Halls, Writ givers, Bankers, Bell portals... all that kind of stuff should have been city and public only! Hence, the harvesting bot is just plain and completely r etarded! Period!Maybe most people standing at brokers, bankers and crafting halls didn't always interact, a lot still did. At least on my server.And the Quenos Harbor is laggy! Please fix!! as counter argument is even more silly and getting old.It's a physological effect of seeing people roaming around that gives you the feeling of immersion and the feel you are playing an MMORPG and not a single player game with a glorified chat box.Not everyone is guilded, nor is every new player interested into joining a guild right of the bat. Some people want to play guildless for quite some time, fiddling around with the game, different classes, etc... before they consider joining a guild.Now, you either forced to join a big guild or are forced to deal with empty zones and playing alone.<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>all of that came at the expense of emptying the world. What is eq2? It is a fairly mediocre game. What made it interesting to log in was the community. Now what do people do? People go to their gh, then use their flag to go to an instance, then use their call to port back to the gh. The greater community outside of the guild has been greatly harmed. There are simply too many instances and too many ways to avoid contact with persons world. <div></div></blockquote>Exactly!

Finora

02-22-2009, 02:02 PM

Odd, my guild has a t3 guild hall and I still frequent they cities and often see my guild mates in them as well. And just so you all know, a lot of us think the harvesting bots are a waste of an amenity and pointless money sink =p, so we still do our own harvesting. Wave at us when you see us out.I still see people running around NQ, standing at the broker, doing their crafting in Ironforge's, banking all that still. I happened to be in QH the other day and ran over to that broker to check something quickly...and there were a half dozen other folks standing there. People who aren't high enough for Kunark writs still have to go to the appropriate cities to pick up the writs they want, and yes, there are quite a few people who are not yet 70+.The only thing I don't see too often anymore are the high end raiders and LON players with spiffy new loot card items sitting around in QH by the city merchants/Antonia statue afk on their fancy mounts /cool gear helping lag up the place with particle effects =).Maybe there was spontaneous RP on the RP servers or other servers, but I can't recall ever seeing anything like that on servers that I've played on. I have occassionally spoken to strangers myself, mostly after seeing something they have in their appearance that I really like the look of and don't know where it came from. Most of the spontaneous chat I've seen has been in level channels and overland areas. When people were in town, they were generally in town for a reason and wanted to get that errand done before logging for the day or heading back out to do whatever they were on their way to do.To me seeing a ton of players hanging out afk in the city screams "THERE IS NOTHING TO DO IN THIS GAME BUT STAND AROUND AFK AND LOOK COOL". If you don't see many just afk in cities, and the ones you do see are busy at the broker/banker or whatever that seems a GOOD thing. Seems to me it would indicate that there are much better things to do that stand around doing nothing in your home city trying to make the world look 'busy'. Anyone who has ever played pretty much any MMO knows that /who all or something along those lines can give them an idea of how many people are on. If they are smart they know they can break it down by class or level range. /who all 1 30 for example. Level channels are automatically joined and I know at least on some servers many people stay in them. It's quite easy to see if it's dead or not just by looking at these things.I personally still occassionally craft in NQ, I visit town often for one reason or another on one character or another. I very frequently out harvesting, just because I love to do it. My home is in SQ so I am regularly in that area (though that part of the city you do generally see fewer people, though honestly it always was the 'dead' zone in Qeynos, at least on my server. I stay in level channels even when the idiots get going and start being stupid so I can see newbies & others who are looking for help and offer it if I am able.I also have the added bonus of getting to spend time with my guild mates talking and doing things that don't involve killing in our hall.

liveja

02-22-2009, 02:25 PM

<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>The greater community outside of the guild has been greatly harmed.</blockquote>That may or may not be true on PvP servers, but on PvE servers, I haven't noticed any major difference.In any event, what I said earlier still holds true: this "issue" has been hashed over countless times already, & most people either simply don't care, or don't care enough to weigh in on it. Beyond that, the only time I ever see anyone criticizing guild halls is here on the forums -- in-game, they're a resounding success precisely because of the very amenities the OP believes are ruining the game.AFAIC, my guildies & I socialize more now then we did before, & our guild hall is the hub of our socializing. Whether other guilds do so or not is irrelevant to me.

erin

02-22-2009, 02:26 PM

<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>all of that came at the expense of emptying the world. What is eq2? It is a fairly mediocre game. What made it interesting to log in was the community. Now what do people do? People go to their gh, then use their flag to go to an instance, then use their call to port back to the gh. The greater community outside of the guild has been greatly harmed. There are simply too many instances and too many ways to avoid contact with persons world. </blockquote>The community is in the level channels. People standing around QH not interacting, did absolutely nothing for me, I'm still not clear what it did for any of you.

liveja

02-22-2009, 02:28 PM

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>The community is in the level channels. People standing around QH not interacting, did absolutely nothing for me, I'm still not clear what it did for any of you.</blockquote>QFE.

Kordran

02-22-2009, 02:29 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I am against and what has basically killed the immersion factor of this game is all the amneties you can buy in your guild hall!</blockquote>So, if they dropped about 100 more NPCs in EFP and QH, making sure that they randomly walked by the broker periodically hailed him, you'd be happy again? Your "immersion" would be complete, because that's exactly what it was like before guildhalls. Virtually no one interacted with anything but the broker and there was almost no "spontaneous roleplaying" going on between strangers (the one exception I can think of is at the Blood Haze on AB, and the vast majority of that was emo vampire/softcore RP, at least at the time I was playing on that server).When you really analyze it and break it down, most of what you're talking about was going on inside your own head, not something that was actually happening in the game. What was happening in the game was a bunch of people standing around, completely silent, staring at the broker or AFK. Since day one, 99% of any conversation in this game happens in tells, guild or level chat, not /say. And I certainly can't see how raiders parked AFK on their mounts in QH somehow make the game more "immersive". Laggy? Yes. Immersive? Not really.The strength of this game, the glue that binds players together (and keeps those subscriptions active) is the guild. Anything that strengthens guilds, makes them more self-sufficient, stronger, organized and functional is a good thing for the players, for the guild (obviously) and the game at large. Ask almost anyone who's in a well-run, organized guild with a guildhall, that their halls -- and the ammenities it provides -- has strengthened their guild, made the game more fun for thier members and has increased the socialization within the guild. And that is what's important. Not that Joe Q. Player has some artificial sense of server population by running around a lot of AFK toons at the harbor.Bottom line: Anyone, particularly newer players, who want to get the most out of the game should join a guild. That is the community that's worth caring about. In the last 6 months, SOE has rediscovered the core of what has made EverQuest a great franchise: guilds, grouping and raiding. Personally, I hope they keep it up.

Kaalenarc

02-22-2009, 02:38 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am a huge proponent of the halls myself. I think that while it may have been somehow reassuring to folks to see 20 ppl standing at the broker, those people largely did not interact, and didnt have a reason to do so. Im not a roleplayer, but if you like roleplay, then plan a public event - time and again the RP community as responded (festivals of Harmony/Discord etc).With the functionality of guild halls, we no longer have endless cries of "QH is laggy fix it!!!!!!" and theres a more substantial reason for people to value their guild. It promotes camraderie and gives people something to work together to achieve for the group as a whole. I certainly wouldnt want that functionality reduced in any way.</blockquote>They could have come up with plenty of other ideas and functionality for guild halls to make them viable enough!They just had to look at one of their other games named Star Wars Galaxies!Public Brokers, Crafting Halls, Writ givers, Bankers, Bell portals... all that kind of stuff should have been city and public only! Hence, the harvesting bot is just plain and completely r *****d! Period!Ignoring for a moment the silliness of holding SWG up as the ideal anything, after the way its been mangled, there is a huge difference in that in SWG the cities are the guild halls. You went to your home city, your player-made city. You didnt "hang out" in Mos Eisley. You hung out in the player area for your own guild. As you do in most MMOs.You also say "hence (therefore?) the harvesting bot is completely r*****d." That doesnt make much sense. Whats wrong with the harvest bot? it doesnt affect your broker sales much, as rares arent produced. Theoretically most guilds are using the bots for their harvest depot which does somewhat reduce demand but also means fewer sellers making what is available to sell higher priced.Maybe most people standing at brokers, bankers and crafting halls didn't always interact, a lot still did. At least on my server.And the Quenos Harbor is laggy! Please fix!! as counter argument is even more silly and getting old.Calling an argument "silly and old" doesnt mean that its an invalid argument. Its like you're just standing there saying "nuh uh' when confronted with the logic of the situation. As for interaction at the brokers, of course some did. But really - check your friends list. How many people are on there that you met standing around at a broker and became your regular gaming partner or guildmate? 2? 3?. Instead of deriding the guild halls, lets call for different and increased functionality in the cities instead. Call for giving people some thing else to do in the cities. You will also note that all the city based writs are still there as well.It's a physological effect of seeing people roaming around that gives you the feeling of immersion and the feel you are playing an MMORPG and not a single player game with a glorified chat box.Im not sure if you mean psychological, or physiological, but in either case, I do agree that the feeling of immersion is important. I simply disagree that the location of that immersion happens to be in the cities exclusively. As a guilded player I feel I am a part of a thriving community, one that is active, communicates while doing all the formerly "city based" mundane tasks and affords me plenty of interaction opportunity. I still meet and interact with people I havent met virtually every day. I do that by going out into the world and meeting new people, not by standing around QH hoping some random stranger will do a /wave emote at me.Not everyone is guilded, nor is every new player interested into joining a guild right of the bat. Some people want to play guildless for quite some time, fiddling around with the game, different classes, etc... before they consider joining a guild.Youre right on that point, and there is nothing wrong with that playstyle. But you seem to want to restrict the other playstyle in favor of the one you enjoy. Sorry, that wont happen.Now, you either forced to join a big guild or are forced to deal with empty zones and playing alone.Not true. Its not so black and white. You can /lfg, chat in channels to meet new people, or just head off to a random overland zone and find plenty of people off adventuring to meet. Im sure you could wander by someone in combat, throw a random heal on them and maybe interact that way. The difference is, now you dont stand around waiting for it to happen. You have to actually go out into the world and do something.<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>all of that came at the expense of emptying the world. What is eq2? It is a fairly mediocre game. What made it interesting to log in was the community. Now what do people do? People go to their gh, then use their flag to go to an instance, then use their call to port back to the gh. The greater community outside of the guild has been greatly harmed. There are simply too many instances and too many ways to avoid contact with persons world. <div></div></blockquote>Exactly!</blockquote>The "greater community outside of the guild?" What percentage of players do you suppose plays unguilded? If you think its the "greater" % - youre way way way off. The vast majority of players are guilded. Easily 90% of the players I see all over Norrath that I havent met personally are in otehr guilds, not guildless. Dont pretend theres a vast army of ingored unguilded players. The game is a social one and is encouraging you to join a social organization. Doesnt have to be huge, but thats what the game is geared toward partially. It lets you play other ways, but there are benefits to being guilded, and there should be.I agree with you that cities need to be more vibrant, more alive and more populated. But taking back amenities would assuredly cause much upheaval and unhappiness with the majority of the playerbase.I offer you this suggestion instead: Why not advocate instead for MORE to do in the city? Why not have regular questlines available through say, Lucan and Antonia? Why not have the equivalent of those two in other cities like Neriak also become prominent? Why not make some of the "crafting dungeons" take place overland in the cities? How about holding a world event there every couple of months? THOSE types of ideas would draw people to the cities without taking away from others. And I certainly could support that type of thinking. Add content to the game to improve your concerns, not take stuff back.

guillero

02-22-2009, 02:42 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I am against and what has basically killed the immersion factor of this game is all the amneties you can buy in your guild hall!</blockquote>So, if they dropped about 100 more NPCs in EFP and QH, making sure that they randomly walked by the broker periodically hailed him, you'd be happy again? Your "immersion" would be complete, because that's exactly what it was like before guildhalls. Virtually no one interacted with anything but the broker and there was almost no "spontaneous roleplaying" going on between strangers (the one exception I can think of is at the Blood Haze on AB, and the vast majority of that was emo vampire/softcore RP, at least at the time I was playing on that server).When you really analyze it and break it down, most of what you're talking about was going on inside your own head, not something that was actually happening in the game. What was happening in the game was a bunch of people standing around, completely silent, staring at the broker or AFK. Since day one, 99% of any conversation in this game happens in tells, guild or level chat, not /say. And I certainly can't see how raiders parked AFK on their mounts in QH somehow make the game more "immersive". Laggy? Yes. Immersive? Not really.The strength of this game, the glue that binds players together (and keeps those subscriptions active) is the guild. Anything that strengthens guilds, makes them more self-sufficient, stronger, organized and functional is a good thing for the players, for the guild (obviously) and the game at large. Ask almost anyone who's in a well-run, organized guild with a guildhall, that their halls -- and the ammenities it provides -- has strengthened their guild, made the game more fun for thier members and has increased the socialization within the guild. And that is what's important. Not that Joe Q. Player has some artificial sense of server population by running around a lot of AFK toons at the harbor.Bottom line: Anyone, particularly newer players, who want to get the most out of the game should join a guild. That is the community that's worth caring about. In the last 6 months, SOE has rediscovered the core of what has made EverQuest a great franchise: guilds, grouping and raiding. Personally, I hope they keep it up.</blockquote>You don't get it.A guild isn't the community. It's ALL the players together on the server that forms the community.A guild is more tightnit. Sure. And you spend more time with them. Sure too.But it's all the players together on the server that forms the Community.What guild halls did with all their amenities is killed off the Community and splintered it off to small guild communities, with people hiding inside their guild halls, only to come out to directly port to their Raid or Dungeon.As yes, traveling has been pretty much killed off too, with these stupid dungeon flags and bells inside guild halls.EverQuest 2 isn't Guild Wars. It has never been advertised as a Guild Only game! Never stated that you have to expect everything to be dead and void of players, because everyone is hiding inside their guild hall.As that is exactly what happened to this game. And that is a sad and very bad direction this game took.And just dropping 100 NPC's is just a stupid argument. Sorry tho. You know exactly what I mean.It's just sad you don't seem to get it or not willing to admit it.If I want to be surrounded by NPC's only I can just go play a single player RPG like Oblivion or Fallout 3.

liveja

02-22-2009, 02:45 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>A guild isn't the community. It's ALL the players together on the server that forms the community.</blockquote>EQ -- from its beginning, almost 10 years ago -- has always been about guilds as the basis of the community. It's always been that way, & IMO it should always be that way.

guillero

02-22-2009, 02:56 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>A guild isn't the community. It's ALL the players together on the server that forms the community.</blockquote>EQ -- from its beginning, almost 10 years ago -- has always been about guilds as the basis of the community. It's always been that way, & IMO it should always be that way.</blockquote>There is nothing wrong with guilds. It doesn't mean you have to turn the guildhall into basically the whole game (Exept dungeons) where everything takes place.If this is the whole idea and direction of the game, then SOE can basically remove all the cities, most of the zones. It saves up a jitload of resources too!Just make a island for new players and when they are finished give them a pop-up box to let them chose wich guild to join.Then they port into the guildhall.And from the guildhall they can port to all the dungeons and Raids.No need for traveling. No need for harvesting. Everything can be done in the guild hall.It makes me feel sad so many of you have become so blind and/or just not willing to see the negative ramifications from all these ammenities within Guild Halls. Turning large social hubs like cities obsolete! It basically has driven people away and lock them up inside small instances aka Guild Halls.Even when I was guilded I spend more time with people outside my guild. People I spontaniously ran into in hubs, cities and the zones itself.It's what makes MMORPG's so great!And all this is gone, because the cities, hubs and most zones have become deserted since the introductions of Guild Halls.

Kaalenarc

02-22-2009, 02:57 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't get it.A guild isn't the community. It's ALL the players together on the server that forms the community.A guild is more tightnit. Sure. And you spend more time with them. Sure too.But it's all the players together on the server that forms the Community.What guild halls did with all their amenities is killed off the Community and splintered it off to small guild communities, with people hiding inside their guild halls, only to come out to directly port to their Raid or Dungeon.As yes, traveling has been pretty much killed off too, with these stupid dungeon flags and bells inside guild halls.I dont know about you, but for me running in a straight line for 20 minutes and zoning 5 times isnt an enjoyable aspect of gameplay and more often than not is just a time sink. If Im heading somewhere to play with my friends, Im not stopping along the way to chat. Im getting to where I need to be. If you enjoy long overland rides to get to where you're going, no one is forcing use of the bells/flags on you.Also - no one is "hiding" in their guild halls. They are playing and interacting in there. They are crafting, chatting, holding guild events, socializing. Many halls are open to the public, wander in and interact. EverQuest 2 isn't Guild Wars. It has never been advertised as a Guild Only game! Never stated that you have to expect everything to be dead and void of players, because everyone is hiding inside their guild hall.As that is exactly what happened to this game. And that is a sad and very bad direction this game took.Yet the guild halls, amenities included have received overwhelmingly positive feedback from the vast majority of the community. Im sorry if you are sad, but the majority is rather pleased.And just dropping 100 NPC's is just a stupid argument. Sorry tho. You know exactly what I mean.It's just sad you don't seem to get it or not willing to admit it.If I want to be surrounded by NPC's only I can just go play a single player RPG like Oblivion or Fallout 3.</blockquote>And if you want to interact with strangers, go visit their halls. Or better yet, get out in the world and meet people. All thats changed is you dont have a central place where you can stand around and wait for others to come to you.

liveja

02-22-2009, 03:01 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Turning large social hubs like cities obsolete! </blockquote>The problem with your argument is that the cities were never "large social hubs" in the first place. They've ALWAYS been zones people run through, stop at a broker or vendor or mender or guild writ giver, & move on.

Vanderlay

02-22-2009, 03:02 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I am against and what has basically killed the immersion factor of this game is all the amneties you can buy in your guild hall!</blockquote>So, if they dropped about 100 more NPCs in EFP and QH, making sure that they randomly walked by the broker periodically hailed him, you'd be happy again? Your "immersion" would be complete, because that's exactly what it was like before guildhalls. Virtually no one interacted with anything but the broker and there was almost no "spontaneous roleplaying" going on between strangers (the one exception I can think of is at the Blood Haze on AB, and the vast majority of that was emo vampire/softcore RP, at least at the time I was playing on that server).When you really analyze it and break it down, most of what you're talking about was going on inside your own head, not something that was actually happening in the game. What was happening in the game was a bunch of people standing around, completely silent, staring at the broker or AFK. Since day one, 99% of any conversation in this game happens in tells, guild or level chat, not /say. And I certainly can't see how raiders parked AFK on their mounts in QH somehow make the game more "immersive". Laggy? Yes. Immersive? Not really.The strength of this game, the glue that binds players together (and keeps those subscriptions active) is the guild. Anything that strengthens guilds, makes them more self-sufficient, stronger, organized and functional is a good thing for the players, for the guild (obviously) and the game at large. Ask almost anyone who's in a well-run, organized guild with a guildhall, that their halls -- and the ammenities it provides -- has strengthened their guild, made the game more fun for thier members and has increased the socialization within the guild. And that is what's important. Not that Joe Q. Player has some artificial sense of server population by running around a lot of AFK toons at the harbor.Bottom line: Anyone, particularly newer players, who want to get the most out of the game should join a guild. That is the community that's worth caring about. In the last 6 months, SOE has rediscovered the core of what has made EverQuest a great franchise: guilds, grouping and raiding. Personally, I hope they keep it up.</blockquote>You don't get it.A guild isn't the community. It's ALL the players together on the server that forms the community.A guild is more tightnit. Sure. And you spend more time with them. Sure too.But it's all the players together on the server that forms the Community.What guild halls did with all their amenities is killed off the Community and splintered it off to small guild communities, with people hiding inside their guild halls, only to come out to directly port to their Raid or Dungeon.As yes, traveling has been pretty much killed off too, with these stupid dungeon flags and bells inside guild halls.EverQuest 2 isn't Guild Wars. It has never been advertised as a Guild Only game! Never stated that you have to expect everything to be dead and void of players, because everyone is hiding inside their guild hall.As that is exactly what happened to this game. And that is a sad and very bad direction this game took.And just dropping 100 NPC's is just a stupid argument. Sorry tho. You know exactly what I mean.It's just sad you don't seem to get it or not willing to admit it.If I want to be surrounded by NPC's only I can just go play a single player RPG like Oblivion or Fallout 3.</blockquote>First off, it sounds from my perspective like you're "immersion" came in the way of seeing other people running around the city zones, probably busy doing a quest or checking the broker. So now they have a guild hall where they can do all of that without the hassle of having to zone 5 different times to sell status items, or hit the crafting instances. What is wrong with that? I personally love the fact that my guild has all of the amenities. It keeps me from wasting time traveling between all of the city zones. We're a level 80 raiding guild and have worked hard for everything we have, so why shouldn't we be able to have those amenities?Secondly, your griping about an idea that was introduced by the players. The "community" has been asking for guild halls for years. Obviously the majority of people that play asked for, and received what they wanted. So you must be one of the small minority of players that didn't vote for the guild halls. Maybe you should join a guild that has a guild hall and you will feel a lot different. I was unguilded for about a month or 2 before I found the right guild for me, and made instant friends with people BECAUSE of the guild hall. Voice chat has made things even better IMHO. Sorry if my "immersion" into the game isn't as great as yours, but I absolutely love the new changes that SOE has made in regards to guild halls and voice chat.

guillero

02-22-2009, 03:29 PM

<cite>Vanderlay wrote:</cite><blockquote>Secondly, your griping about an idea that was introduced by the players. The "community" has been asking for guild halls for years. Obviously the majority of people that play asked for, and received what they wanted. So you must be one of the small minority of players that didn't vote for the guild halls. Maybe you should join a guild that has a guild hall and you will feel a lot different. I was unguilded for about a month or 2 before I found the right guild for me, and made instant friends with people BECAUSE of the guild hall. Voice chat has made things even better IMHO. Sorry if my "immersion" into the game isn't as great as yours, but I absolutely love the new changes that SOE has made in regards to guild halls and voice chat.</blockquote>Did I say I was against Guild Halls itself? No!Rest my case. As I never said I was against Guild Halls itself.I was and still am against all used to be public only available functionalities now being available within guild halls.There is basically not a single reason anymore to go to a City. Unless you have a T1 or T2 guild hall, but then again you can still basically port directly into it.And people visiting other Guild Halls? For what? Only if you know that guild or for an organised event.I don't see any reason why I should invade other people's homes or guild halls if I don't know them at all.Because there is basically no reason for me to do so.At least in SWG you actually had to visit people's homes, guild halls, cities, whatever to buy stuff from their merchants.But SOE has dumbed that down here in EQ2 as well as you can buy anything from the broker from everywhere!I still don't understand why Public functionality had to be added in form of ammenities to Guild Halls.Other then to emptying the zones as a cheap lazy way of dealing with sertain lag issues. Wich has happened.And it was never the majority that wanted the whole game stuffed into the guild hall in form of ammenities!It was a small vocal hardcore forum club dominating that very thread back then. I have followed it post by post. So I know exactly what happened there.All the people that were against a lot of the ammenities, like the harvesting bot, were bashed and overshadowed by this little vocal hardcore forum club and basically gave up trying and went away.Most people were fine having to go to the city to check the broker, to craft, pick up writs, etc.The Guild Hall should have fulfilled a different role. It should have been an addition to the game, not a replacement of the city and hubs!

Vanderlay

02-22-2009, 04:05 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vanderlay wrote:</cite><blockquote>Secondly, your griping about an idea that was introduced by the players. The "community" has been asking for guild halls for years. Obviously the majority of people that play asked for, and received what they wanted. So you must be one of the small minority of players that didn't vote for the guild halls. Maybe you should join a guild that has a guild hall and you will feel a lot different. I was unguilded for about a month or 2 before I found the right guild for me, and made instant friends with people BECAUSE of the guild hall. Voice chat has made things even better IMHO. Sorry if my "immersion" into the game isn't as great as yours, but I absolutely love the new changes that SOE has made in regards to guild halls and voice chat.</blockquote>Did I say I was against Guild Halls itself? No!Rest my case. As I never said I was against Guild Halls itself.I was and still am against all used to be public only available functionalities now being available within guild halls.There is basically not a single reason anymore to go to a City. Unless you have a T1 or T2 guild hall, but then again you can still basically port directly into it.And people visiting other Guild Halls? For what? Only if you know that guild or for an organised event.I don't see any reason why I should invade other people's homes or guild halls if I don't know them at all.Because there is basically no reason for me to do so.At least in SWG you actually had to visit people's homes, guild halls, cities, whatever to buy stuff from their merchants.But SOE has dumbed that down here in EQ2 as well as you can buy anything from the broker from everywhere!I still don't understand why Public functionality had to be added in form of ammenities to Guild Halls.Other then to emptying the zones as a cheap lazy way of dealing with sertain lag issues. Wich has happened.And it was never the majority that wanted the whole game stuffed into the guild hall in form of ammenities!It was a small vocal hardcore forum club dominating that very thread back then. I have followed it post by post. So I know exactly what happened there.All the people that were against a lot of the ammenities, like the harvesting bot, were bashed and overshadowed by this little vocal hardcore forum club.Most people were fine having to go to the city to check the broker, to craft, pick up writs, etc.The Guild Hall should have fulfilled a different role. It should have been an addition to the game, not a replacement of the city and hubs!</blockquote>So instead of whining and moaning about the lack of people in the various city zones, what is your suggestion to improve that? You sound like the typical person who's complaining about something, yet offers no valid solution to the problem.You can't "undo" the amenities now, or you'll have countless number of guilds complaining. You can't re-invent the wheel and add more NPC's to city zones. Someone earlier posted a great suggestion to get the cities more active by instilling some new quests that involve different Norrathian cities.Stop comparing this game to SWG because it isn't the same. I played SWG for over 2 years and watched the demise of that game (which had the best crafting/harvesting in any other MMO hands down). The only reason SWG had as many people running around as it did was because of the opportunity to catch someone from the other faction in their home city. Trust me I had no problem walking openly in a rebel city with my AT-ST and a few clan members with my back. EQ2 isn't even close to that (maybe PvP servers are like this...not sure).Like I stated above, the less I have to zone in and out of different places, the better. Click bell and I'm in Lavastorm. Love it.

Estean1

02-22-2009, 04:07 PM

Ha Ha this argument is so dumb. Guild halls are fantastic. You want to see vast desolate wastelands? Take away guild halls or all the amenities.

guillero

02-22-2009, 04:16 PM

<cite>Vanderlay wrote:</cite><blockquote>So instead of whining and moaning about the lack of people in the various city zones, what is your suggestion to improve that? You sound like the typical person who's complaining about something, yet offers no valid solution to the problem.You can't "undo" the amenities now, or you'll have countless number of guilds complaining. You can't re-invent the wheel and add more NPC's to city zones. Someone earlier posted a great suggestion to get the cities more active by instilling some new quests that involve different Norrathian cities.Stop comparing this game to SWG because it isn't the same. I played SWG for over 2 years and watched the demise of that game (which had the best crafting/harvesting in any other MMO hands down). The only reason SWG had as many people running around as it did was because of the opportunity to catch someone from the other faction in their home city. Trust me I had no problem walking openly in a rebel city with my AT-ST and a few clan members with my back. EQ2 isn't even close to that (maybe PvP servers are like this...not sure).Like I stated above, the less I have to zone in and out of different places, the better. Click bell and I'm in Lavastorm. Love it.</blockquote>Ah come on! People have given great suggestions in how to improve cities ever since EverQuest 2 was launched!But in SOE's great great reputation, it was all ignored through the years!Instead SOE found a lot more easy to just stuff all City functionalities inside Guild Halls in an attempt to shut people up and get it done with.People are locked up inside their precious guild halls with everything they need. Cities are empty, so no people complaining anymore (at least they hope it will be like that).And people who complained about all the zoning, well they have been heard too. As you can go instantly everywhere from within your guild hall as well. So that whining has been swiftly dealed with easymode too.What people seem so blind of and unable to see, is what it has done to the game as whole.- Traveling / exploring -> dead!- Cities / hubs -> dead!- Server community -> dead!- The majority of Zones itself -> dead!And I know perfectly well that most of the ammeneties cannot be removed anymore.It doesn't mean that you cannot express yourself and post the reality of the effect of them has done to the game itself!And as appearently SOE has no interest in improving the Cities (they never really have).Then I have no idea how to improve it. As it will be ignored by SOE anyway. Like they always have.SOE's main drive of attention seems to be their new upcoming games and Micro Transactions (Item Malls and the like) lately.

Wolphin

02-22-2009, 04:18 PM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I set up the Legends of the Tundra Guildhall (T2 in South Qeynos, Lucan D'Lere), I deleiberately set options so that anyone could come in and use our transportation. I restricted crafting amenities and such to guildfolk. And I set up big areas and encouraged the guild's most talented decorators to go nuts.People from all over have come in to take a peek at that guild hall. Someone who came in to use the bells usually was intrigued by the decorating and walked around and even RPed with folk in the hall.Meanwhile, downstairs, the area where the crafting tables, banker and broker was became the guild's "family room" where you could find people, talk, and joke. And when we had a crafting commission, often customers would come and join in the fun while waiting for their items.I think Legends got to actually see and interact with one another MORE, because we were not all huddled around the broker in our respective cities, or crafting in our local villages.Today, I am in my own small guild that's not old enough yet to have a guild hall. So I go and visit friends in THEIR guildhalls -- Chancellor Anordil of Order of the Silver Tree has a very gracious and welcoming hall, and it is very lovely from time to time to come visiting and enjoy the cloistered gardens for a bit! Or to go back to Legends' hall for Fight Pub, and knock back an ale or three.In short, I think guild halls are what you make of them. I found the Legends guild hall to actually promote socialization, both with guildfolk and friends, both old and new.</blockquote>I agree with Sigrdrifa, I think it has brought our guild closer together as the folks are gathered around the crafting area or the bank/broker area and people interact now when they see each other. They also shout and whatnot around the hall. before we were all spread out in our own various suburbs were you saw not many folks or people were afk or doing their own thing. I think they are a good thing for socializing.... most people who don't know each other due to guilds or grouping just socialize in the level chat channels anyways, not in say standing by each other....

Vanderlay

02-22-2009, 04:30 PM

<cite>Wolphin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I set up the Legends of the Tundra Guildhall (T2 in South Qeynos, Lucan D'Lere), I deleiberately set options so that anyone could come in and use our transportation. I restricted crafting amenities and such to guildfolk. And I set up big areas and encouraged the guild's most talented decorators to go nuts.People from all over have come in to take a peek at that guild hall. Someone who came in to use the bells usually was intrigued by the decorating and walked around and even RPed with folk in the hall.Meanwhile, downstairs, the area where the crafting tables, banker and broker was became the guild's "family room" where you could find people, talk, and joke. And when we had a crafting commission, often customers would come and join in the fun while waiting for their items.I think Legends got to actually see and interact with one another MORE, because we were not all huddled around the broker in our respective cities, or crafting in our local villages.Today, I am in my own small guild that's not old enough yet to have a guild hall. So I go and visit friends in THEIR guildhalls -- Chancellor Anordil of Order of the Silver Tree has a very gracious and welcoming hall, and it is very lovely from time to time to come visiting and enjoy the cloistered gardens for a bit! Or to go back to Legends' hall for Fight Pub, and knock back an ale or three.In short, I think guild halls are what you make of them. I found the Legends guild hall to actually promote socialization, both with guildfolk and friends, both old and new.</blockquote>I agree with Sigrdrifa, I think it has brought our guild closer together as the folks are gathered around the crafting area or the bank/broker area and people interact now when they see each other. They also shout and whatnot around the hall. before we were all spread out in our own various suburbs were you saw not many folks or people were afk or doing their own thing. I think they are a good thing for socializing.... most people who don't know each other due to guilds or grouping just socialize in the level chat channels anyways, not in say standing by each other....</blockquote>Agreed. Before I would see guild members at raids. Maybe if we grouped. Period. Now, I see them everytime I log in and go to the guild hall. It's nice to be able to put a name with a face, instead of group member 3, etc.My nickname in the guild is Big Ugly. Why? I'm a big ugly ogre and everyone jokes about etc. while putting together a group or tradeskilling, or whatever IN THE GUILDHALL. My community is with my guild, not the idiots of level chat who are insistent about making political/religious/sexual comments. It doesn't bother me, but at least now I can "tune them out" while standing around the hall TOGETHER with all of the guildies. We poke fun and such, duel even, or talk about gear, strats etc. through Voice chat. It makes it much easier to have one common place where everyone can come and do what they want, but feel part of a community.Bottom line is that it's what you make of it. Let's equate this into real world logic for a second: 1850's they used horses to travel. Why? Because cars/subways/trains/planes etc. weren't invented yet. 2009 they use all of the aforementioned. Why? Technology my friend. It's SoE's implementation of technology expanding over the course of time. Either jump on the light speeder or get your pack mule packed.

guillero

02-22-2009, 04:41 PM

<cite>Vanderlay wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's equate this into real world logic for a second: 1850's they used horses to travel. Why? Because cars/subways/trains/planes etc. weren't invented yet. 2009 they use all of the aforementioned. Why? Technology my friend. It's SoE's implementation of technology expanding over the course of time. Either jump on the light speeder or get your pack mule packed.</blockquote>LOL! So according to your so called SOE techological expanding, you wouldn't mind if SOE removed all the cities and zones and mounts and just limit the game to a trial island and guild hall instances wich are in turn directly connected to the dungeons due to instant travel options? As that's all left what is basically needed right?Because we now suddenly moved hundreds of years forward within the game, change the setting completely and turn the game into a SciFi MMO in wich traveling, exploring, harvesting and all that isn't needed anymore.You just sit in your guild hall with your guildies and insta port to your dungeon to farm some Epixx gear and port back to your guild hall?I am sure SOE would love this. It means they can shut down most of their hardware to save costs (music to The Smed's ears I am sure) and cut in staff as well to reduce costs even further (even more music to The Smed's ears!).If this is going to be the future of EverQuest 2, well then I will not be part of it. As that is never what I signed up for years ago.The game has been dumbed down enough already.

Vanderlay

02-22-2009, 04:43 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vanderlay wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's equate this into real world logic for a second: 1850's they used horses to travel. Why? Because cars/subways/trains/planes etc. weren't invented yet. 2009 they use all of the aforementioned. Why? Technology my friend. It's SoE's implementation of technology expanding over the course of time. Either jump on the light speeder or get your pack mule packed.</blockquote>LOL! So according to your so called SOE techological expanding, you wouldn't mind if SOE removed all the cities and zones and mounts and just limit the game to a trial island and guild hall instances wich are in turn directly connected to the dungeons due to instant travel options? As that's all left what is basically needed right?Because we now suddenly moved hundreds of years forward within the game, change the setting completely and turn the game into a SciFi MMO in wich traveling, exploring, harvesting and all that isn't needed anymore.You just sit in your guild hall with your guildies and insta port to your dungeon to farm some Epixx gear and port back to your guild hall?I am sure SOE would love this. It means they can shut down most of their hardware to save costs (music to The Smed's ears I am sure) and cut in staff as well to reduce costs even further (even more music to The Smed's ears!).If this is going to be the future of EverQuest 2, well then I will not be part of it. As that is never what I signed up for years ago.The game has been dumbed down enough already.</blockquote>/bye

feldon30

02-22-2009, 05:03 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>It seems that the introduction of Guild Halls and it's effect is clearly starting to show.All cities and other hubs that were once busy with level 80 mythicaled players standing around, advertising for more players to join their raid guilds have now had those players move to their guild halls.</blockquote>I fixed it for you.By the way I LOVE guild halls, will never join a guild that doesn't have one (or plans to have one), and do not want to see any amenities go away.

guillero

02-22-2009, 05:08 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>It seems that the introduction of Guild Halls and it's negative effect is clearly starting to show.All cities and other hubs that were once busy with level 80 mythicaled players standing around, advertising for more players to join their raid guilds.</blockquote>I fixed it for you.</blockquote>Don't know on wich servers you guys playing? Were the US servers really that bad? That that was the only thing that happened within cities and hubs?Are we European players so different with MMO's then you guys? That the only thing US people care for is Epixx and have everything else pretty much handed to them on a platter in one convenient place?Appearently it is.

scruffylookin

02-22-2009, 05:45 PM

The OP is certainly over-stating this problem, but the dissenting opinions are equally understating it. This issue isn't game-breaking by any stretch, but denying it's a problem is as bad as yelling about it being game-breaking.The good that guild halls bring to the game certainly outweigh the negative side-effects, but those side-effects are still there and should be addressed. Flat denial that the problems exist are the surest way to guarantee they never get fixed.Guild halls, mixed with TSO instances, has made it a bit harder for new people to find guilds. Essentially, TSO instances and guild halls have removed almost all guild visibility.There are about three guilds on my server that are the primary large-membership guilds. Every vet knows them. Once upon a time, you couldn't walk through a city without seeing 20 of these folks. You saw them so often that you became comfortable with them... those guilds became a part of the Norrathian experience (whether you were in the guild or not). Then, when you decided you wanted to find a guild, you at least had a starting point. I mean, let's face it, the guild window isn't the most optimized utility in the game. Nowadays, you never ever see those guilds. I had to do a search just to know that some of them still exist.IMO, guild halls are fantastic additions and should NOT be removed. But they have (along with increased instancing) made it harder for new players to find guilds. And they have made guilds much more invisible to the world at large.Instead of denying these obvious side-effects, I'd like to see some efforts to fix the problem, without having to take away guild halls. I'm sure there are ways...

Kordran

02-22-2009, 05:47 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>If this is going to be the future of EverQuest 2, well then I will not be part of it. As that is never what I signed up for years ago.The game has been dumbed down enough already.</blockquote>Can we have your stuff?Seriously, I've been playing this game on and off for about 4 years. I've seen the zones, I've done the running around. I've been "immersed" up to my eyeballs in the so-called joys of chain-zoning just to get from point A to point B. At this point, I play this game to raid and instances here and there. I know where pretty much everything is and what it looks like. So, explain to me, what exactly is the benefit of having lagged-out city zones and forcing me to run for 5-10 minutes just to get where I want to be? How, precisely, does that improve my game experience?

guillero

02-22-2009, 06:36 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>If this is going to be the future of EverQuest 2, well then I will not be part of it. As that is never what I signed up for years ago.The game has been dumbed down enough already.</blockquote>Can we have your stuff?Seriously, I've been playing this game on and off for about 4 years. I've seen the zones, I've done the running around. I've been "immersed" up to my eyeballs in the so-called joys of chain-zoning just to get from point A to point B. At this point, I play this game to raid and instances here and there. I know where pretty much everything is and what it looks like. So, explain to me, what exactly is the benefit of having lagged-out city zones and forcing me to run for 5-10 minutes just to get where I want to be? How, precisely, does that improve my game experience?</blockquote>Maybe if WE ALL keep nagging at SOE over and over and over to FIX the lag and improve the cities they might do it?Instead of accepting the lazy solution of dumping everything into guild halls and splinter the server community even more, as their way of so called fixing the lag?Just a thought you know.Again, I am not against guild halls! I like them just as much! I just hate it that every used to be public facility has been dumped into guild halls in form of an ammenity!It's clearly a typical SOE way of ignoring the real problems with cities and try to fix it the easymode way.As let's face it! SOE never really bothered in trying to do something about Cities. To make them better performance wise. To make them more viable. To give more reason for people to go there.Instead they have made it worse and basically hit the final nail on the coffin for cities by giving Guild Halls basically everything through ammenities.As that is what we are discussing here. Not some hate against Guild Halls itself.But the hate against all the ammenities and what they have done to cities itself and people's overall presence through the various zones.

Nuhus

02-22-2009, 06:40 PM

Actually it's kind of funny. I remember the devs wouldn't put everything in terens grasp because they wanted to give people a reason to go to their home city. Domino moved coalition and ironforge to the outside world. I don't think it matters anymore. All those changes are nullified now.

Spyderbite

02-22-2009, 07:05 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>It makes me feel sad so many of you have become so blind and/or just not willing to see the negative ramifications from all these ammenities within Guild Halls. Turning large social hubs like cities obsolete!</blockquote>I used to think like you when people were constantly requesting more ways to craft from their homes without having to visit the city, broker, merchants.So, you see, it isn't SOE that ruined your immersion. It is your peers who requested such features, regardless if they were implemented in to private homes or guild halls. That is irrelavent. But, it was the players that wanted it this way.Personally, I enjoy the guild halls the way they are. There are guild members that I had never seen in game over a period of 3 years cause they were off doing End Game stuff. Now, I'm shoulder to shoulder with them daily, crafting or visiting the broker and chatting/roleplaying with them.It may have taken away your opportunity to mingle with strangers.. but, it brought those of us who were in guilds, especially large guilds like mine.. closer together.

erin

02-22-2009, 08:45 PM

<cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, guild halls are fantastic additions and should NOT be removed. But they have (along with increased instancing) made it harder for new players to find guilds. And they have made guilds much more invisible to the world at large.</blockquote>I disagree completely. Not only do I see multiple (at LEAST 5) guilds advertising every single day for more members, all those guilds with guild halls, but I see 2 or 3 guilds a week being created, and I only play in certain time slots (in other words, there's probably a half dozen to a dozen new guilds popping up every week).So any new player who has 2 brain cells to rub together would notice fairly quickly that guilds are a good thing and would likely join one of the spammer guilds. Grow up a few levels and join a better guild. The amenities alone sell the concept of why a guild is a positive thing.The only new players that would struggle with the concept are those that have never played an MMO, ever, and if they are intelligent, they would ask some questions and figure it out in no time.

erin

02-22-2009, 08:49 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even when I was guilded I spend more time with people outside my guild. People I spontaniously ran into in hubs, cities and the zones itself.</blockquote>How did you manage that? When there were no guildhalls, there was still 0 interaction of people in the cities.People were there for reasons: banking, broker, passing through to get somewhere else, or standing around AFK.Where did you manage to interact with all these wonderous people? They sure don't play on my server.You make it sound like there was this fantastic social interaction that SOE has taken away from you. Except it never existed in the first place, as far as I, and most of the people posting here, seem to remember.Are you sure you were thinking of EQ2 when you posted this?

liveja

02-22-2009, 09:08 PM

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even when I was guilded I spend more time with people outside my guild. People I spontaniously ran into in hubs, cities and the zones itself.</blockquote>How did you manage that? When there were no guildhalls, there was still 0 interaction of people in the cities.</blockquote>According to an earlier response, the OP plays on a European server, which is apparently a rich & exciting world of spontaneous roleplaying.Or, it was, until the guild halls went & turned all those players into non-RPing, non-socializing hermits who spend all their EQ2 time hiding in instances. O, the insidious evil of guild halls, to so corrupt the bright shining youth of Europe!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Lethe5683

02-22-2009, 09:33 PM

<div></div> I agree with <a href="../user/profile.m?user_id=137848">Guillenor</a> that the guild halls have been a terrible addition to the game. Really everything that has happened since I got the game has done nothing but make an already mediocre game worse. It's too bad that all MMOs lately are doing the exact same thing and making stupid, boring, unimmmersive games. I don't play EQ2 because it's a good game... I play eq2 because it's not as bad as all the other terrible MMOs.

WascalWabb

02-22-2009, 10:44 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even when I was guilded I spend more time with people outside my guild. People I spontaniously ran into in hubs, cities and the zones itself.</blockquote>How did you manage that? When there were no guildhalls, there was still 0 interaction of people in the cities.</blockquote>According to an earlier response, the OP plays on a European server, which is apparently a rich & exciting world of spontaneous roleplaying.Or, it was, until the guild halls went & turned all those players into non-RPing, non-socializing hermits who spend all their EQ2 time hiding in instances. O, the insidious evil of guild halls, to so corrupt the bright shining youth of Europe!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>The strange thing is, I play on the same server and am now wondering how I missed this glittering social scene all this time. I've just come back to the game after about a 6 month break and I think guild halls are wonderful. I actually see my guildies all the time now as we pop into the gh for something or just passing through. Previously I might see one out and about here and there, but apart from that only when we were grouping or raiding. Hell a few of us just spent the last hour or so practicing on training dummies in there, just trying different things and seeing what effect they had.My memories of QH from the last time I played are of 20-30 people on wargs/rhinos standing on top of the broker and another 20-30 /anon and /afk around the statue waiting on raids to forms up with a few stood around advertising their uber loot for sale. I may have seen the odd /say conversation over the years, but the majority of the community interaction has been (and still is imo) in the level channels, norrathtrade and guild chat. None of that seems any different than I remember it before the guild halls came along.As to a lot of the zones being empty, I think that's more to do with the age of the game and the fact that a lot of people are at or near the level cap, combined with the fact that the old world zones like Ant and TS just don't hold up well against the newer zones like Darklight Woods, Timorous Deep, etc., so veterans rolling new alts will probably gravitate towards those too. I see loads of people in those zones when I'm playing a low-level alt and plenty of people in the RoK zones and Moors when I'm on my main.

liveja

02-22-2009, 10:58 PM

<cite>Itzy@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>As to a lot of the zones being empty, I think that's more to do with the age of the game and the fact that a lot of people are at or near the level cap, combined with the fact that the old world zones like Ant and TS just don't hold up well against the newer zones like Darklight Woods, Timorous Deep, etc., so veterans rolling new alts will probably gravitate towards those too. I see loads of people in those zones when I'm playing a low-level alt and plenty of people in the RoK zones and Moors when I'm on my main.</blockquote>I think you're completely correct.

Zarador

02-23-2009, 02:42 AM

Here's how I see it:<ul><li>If cities seem "empty" or "dead" it's because many would rather be in their Guild Halls rather than in a public place. They have a choice, they made their choice, their where they wish to be with whoever it is they wish to be with.</li><li>If your not in a Guild Hall, then you made your choice. You rather be around those players that rather use the public amenities. </li></ul>The argument is rediculous at best. Players should never be forced to provide other players "immersion" if that takes away from what they enjoy. Guilded players tend to solcialize within the halls with the players that they enjoy being with the most. When their not with those players, or crafting with some rather nice amenities that the guild has earned their out playing with others or enjoying the game however it is that they choose to enjoy it.Yes, the cities seem more empty; but simply because those who could go elsewhere, chose to go elsewhere. I won't be so harsh as to say "make some friends"; but I will say you need to accept that many others have and decided the halls are where they would rather be.You could argue the same thing about Instances. Six players enter an instance and are hidden from the zone I'm in so I loose the view of those six players while their in there. Odds are they then gate home or go to another instance. Yet we accept that quite easily. Just think of the Guild hall as an instance in town and accept the reality of it.

guillero

02-23-2009, 04:43 AM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's how I see it:<ul><li>If cities seem "empty" or "dead" it's because many would rather be in their Guild Halls rather than in a public place. They have a choice, they made their choice, their where they wish to be with whoever it is they wish to be with.</li><li>If your not in a Guild Hall, then you made your choice. You rather be around those players that rather use the public amenities. </li></ul>The argument is rediculous at best. </blockquote>The argument isn't ridiculous. It just shows what has become of large part of the EQ2 playerbase.They have become a bunch of lazy players that want everything handed to them on a silver platter in one convenient place.Appearently for you guys traveling a couple hundred feet within a city between a banker and a broker or a crafting hall was already too much.Hence, traveling and exploring itself seems to have gotten too much for the lot of you. Seeing that the insta travel portal ammenity being used the most. It's just sickening.It's nothing about being forced.Just take a look at WoW. I will never play that game again and haven't played it for over 2 years. But I didn't see Blizzard putting insta porting options all over the world there!They want people to immerse themselves and travel and explore the world artists put so much time in creating. And if people were so bothered by long travel times and having to go back to the main cities on regular basis. Then WoW wouldn't have had that many subscribers now does it?As traveling = exploring = adventuring... was the whole essense of an MMO in the first place. All what you people seem to have clearly forgotten!Everything what people hated so much about Dungeons and Dragons Online (insta travel options, heavy instancing, no exploring) seems exactly what EverQuest 2 have become.And like I said before. The biggest irony of all, is that Vanguard and it's world seems more alive then ever before. I see more people roaming around in there lately then in EverQuest 2.A game people have comdemned to be dead and burried seems more alive then it's rival.And again. It clearly shows you all have no counter arguments whatsoever, other then burn me to the stake for someone with an extreme hate against Guild Halls.More prove you just don't even bother to read my posts! As I never said I hated Guild Halls itself. But whatever!As you lot seem to keep saying that Guild Halls with all it's ammenities have been a great addition?No they haven't! They are implemented as a replacement of something that should have been fixed and optimised years ago!! Namely the Cities itself!If SOE had ever bothered in fixing and optimising the Cities (what so many have been graving for over the years and ofcourse being completely ignored by the almighty SOE!!), then Guild Halls could have been implemented in a way that it truly was an addition to the game! Without all public functionalities being slapped in as ammenities.A Guild Hall shouldn't be a replacement for a City Hub and it's public functions! A Guild Hall should be about guild pride. A Hall in wich guilds display their trophies and all their incredible stuff they gathered during their adventuring years. Like it once was in Star Wars Galaxies.I remember back then, that we visited Guild Halls to gaze at what people had gathered on trophies and items and how they decorated the place, not to hide in. As the guilds capable of creating fully fledged player cities, with all functionalities in SWG were countable on one hand for each server. However in EQ2 right now I have lost count in how many guilds have a fully fledged Tier3 guild hall.We also went to sertain cities, because the Top crafters were known and we visited their merchants.The cities like Theed, Naboo and Mos Eisley, Tatooine were always packed and dense with players. At least it always was on the Eclipse server in my time back in 2003 - 2004.But with the launch of the NGE it seems since then, that SOE have lost track and the feel of what an MMORPG really was about.But not only SOE. As some of the reactions in this topic also show that lot of players seem to have lost that sense as well.And you know what I find most shocking in most reactions of you people, is that it seems that you lot needed Guild Halls with all public functions slapped into it, to meet your guild members! How sad is that?Because do you lot even read what you are writing in here? You basically saying that your guild was nothing more then a bunch of non-social people all going their own way in the game and never really meet up. Never organised things to do together.It basically says more about your own guild and it's members, then about how the game was before Guild Halls and it's ammeneties!I think I'll rest my case here.

Kendricke

02-23-2009, 07:42 AM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>They have become a bunch of lazy players that want everything handed to them on a silver platter in one convenient place.</blockquote>So, the problem is that when you go to Qeynos Harbor or East Freeport, you don't see many other players and you miss interacting with all of those players...or the problem is that you think other players are lazy and want everything handed to them?<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The biggest irony of all, is that Vanguard and it's world seems more alive then ever before. I see more people roaming around in there lately then in EverQuest 2.A game people have comdemned to be dead and burried seems more alive then it's rival.</blockquote> I wasn't aware that Vanguard and Everquest II were rivals. If so, it can't be a very heated rivalry, since my subscription to one is currently paying for the other (and vice versa <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> ). <cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>They are implemented as a replacement of something that should have been fixed and optimised years ago!! Namely the Cities itself!</blockquote>Guild halls were supposed to be released at live. I still have my collector's edition box that informs me that I'll be able to purchase a guild hall in the game. I can quote posts from Moorgard which were made during development which outlined what the plan would be for guild halls. I was involved in multiple Community Summits where guild halls were discussed. Clearly, guild halls have been on the drawing boards as an intended design element for some time now. <cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I remember back then, that we visited Guild Halls to gaze at what people had gathered on trophies and items and how they decorated the place, not to hide in. As the guilds capable of creating fully fledged player cities, with all functionalities in SWG were countable on one hand for each server. However in EQ2 right now I have lost count in how many guilds have a fully fledged Tier3 guild hall.</blockquote>...and yet, I keep reading complaints on these forums regarding how hard it is to purchase and maintain a Tier 3 guildhall. Guild halls ARE a source of pride. Most guilds I know of open their guild halls to the public for visitor rights, generally because (wait for it)...they actually want people to visit their guild halls. Have you seen all of the screenshots in the Norrathian Homeshow section of these forums regarding guild halls?<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>And you know what I find most shocking in most reactions of you people, is that it seems that you lot needed Guild Halls with all public functions slapped into it, to meet your guild members! How sad is that?Because do you lot even read what you are writing in here? You basically saying that your guild was nothing more then a bunch of non-social people all going their own way in the game and never really meet up. Never organised things to do together.It basically says more about your own guild and it's members, then about how the game was before Guild Halls and it's ammeneties!</blockquote>Before guild halls, there were times I'd rarely run into my guildmates. Oh sure, I'd see them during raids or grouping...or if we asked everyone to meet up at our "guild home" in South Qeynos (a five room house we used), but generally speaking, no one just "hung out" in Qeynos Harbor waiting to see what was up. Tradeskillers were out tradeskilling...typically in multiple instances close to wherever their home bind point was. Guild members who were going to a broker did so in their various hometowns. If I was lucky, I'd bump into a few guildmates by the banker or broker in Qeynos Harbor and we might perform a quick /bow or /salute to one another before we went back to doing what we were doing, but that was it. Socialization was handled in guild chat. We weren't antisocial, but do you really think I was going to just casually bump into one of our lower level necromancers in Qeynos Harbor? Did they really expect to see my Templar shopping in Neriak? Since guild halls have come out, I see my guildmates ALL THE TIME. We had 40 guildmates online at one point tonight before our raid start...and 38 of them were IN THE GUILDHALL AT THE SAME TIME. Several were using our tradeskilling room. A couple were using our broker. Several were using the guild merchants and banker to prepare for the raid. We set our mender to 100% and anyone who had forgetten to mend was able to do so before we used the guild strategist to move the entire raid to the zone in point. Is it the amenities? Sure it is. With the amenities in one place, we can form up groups easier, our tradeskillers can spend their time in the same room instead of across all of Norrath, our members can quickly and easily prep for our next raid, and we don't have to call home just to get the best deals from the broker. If we bring a new member into the guild, we have a grand hall to hold a ceremony if we want, but [erja[s more importantly, we can immediately provide actual benefits for their membership. Is the guild hall more convienent? Yes. Is it chockful of nice amenities you can't find in cities? If you've picked them up, absolutely. Is it nice to have a place that I can bump into my guildmates even when I'm just online for a few minutes to casually chat? ABSOLUTELY. Of all the features added over the last year, guild halls are the one that has re-excited my members the most. I'm sorry you feel the game isn't as strong with guild halls, but for many of us, guild hall are a fantastic addition to the game...and frankly, one which has been long overdue. Honestly, it's one of the best recruiting tools I've seen in ages. If I'm trying to convince someone to come try out Everquest II...I just show them our guild hall. I can't remember EVER getting anyone excited about Everquest II by showing them around Qeynos Harbor.

guillero

02-23-2009, 08:16 AM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I remember back then, that we visited Guild Halls to gaze at what people had gathered on trophies and items and how they decorated the place, not to hide in. As the guilds capable of creating fully fledged player cities, with all functionalities in SWG were countable on one hand for each server. However in EQ2 right now I have lost count in how many guilds have a fully fledged Tier3 guild hall.</blockquote>...and yet, I keep reading complaints on these forums regarding how hard it is to purchase and maintain a Tier 3 guildhall. Guild halls ARE a source of pride. Most guilds I know of open their guild halls to the public for visitor rights, generally because (wait for it)...they actually want people to visit their guild halls. Have you seen all of the screenshots in the Norrathian Homeshow section of these forums regarding guild halls?<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>And you know what I find most shocking in most reactions of you people, is that it seems that you lot needed Guild Halls with all public functions slapped into it, to meet your guild members! How sad is that?Because do you lot even read what you are writing in here? You basically saying that your guild was nothing more then a bunch of non-social people all going their own way in the game and never really meet up. Never organised things to do together.It basically says more about your own guild and it's members, then about how the game was before Guild Halls and it's ammeneties!</blockquote>Before guild halls, there were times I'd rarely run into my guildmates. Honestly, it's one of the best recruiting tools I've seen in ages. If I'm trying to convince someone to come try out Everquest II...I just show them our guild hall. I can't remember EVER getting anyone excited about Everquest II by showing them around Qeynos Harbor. </blockquote>That sense of pride should have been enough. Don't you agree? That was always the initial thought behind Guild Halls.But reading the discussion topics about guild halls back then it was shockingly clear in there that most people didn't give a darn about pride.Main problem being that it took SOE so frigging long to get them in, that most people had 5-room houses by now cranked with stuff. So Guild Halls being just a meeting place with expanded and specialised decoration functionality and extra big storage space (read Pride) wasn't enough anymore!They just wanted basically the whole game in miniform crammed into it, so they could hide in it and had no need to go anywhere else. And that they also could isnta port to everywhere they wanted to.The Norrathian Homeshow was great and fun to watch!Unfortunately for the majority of guilds that isn't on their agenda and they only care about all the ammenities. Several shocking reactions in this topic clearly show that.------And that showing a new player your guild hall seems more interesting than Quenos Harbor.That clearly shows in how SOE has been handling the game over the years, ingoring the potential of Cities to be huge social hubs.Just take a look at other MMO's in wich their Main Cities are crowded with activity day in day out.Why has it never really been the same case with Quenos and Freeport?I know it was that case years ago. I know that all the dividing in zones and loading screens wasn't really helping.But the Guild Halls and how they have been implemented last year have basically been the final nail on the coffin for both Quenos and Freeport and several other hubs.Not to mention that a lot of zones have now trully died as well since then!Cheers

Kalthaza

02-23-2009, 08:31 AM

If I might just interject a bit here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Firstly, I do agree that the starting towns are kinda obsolete now. After all, the only purpose for visiting your city is to use the broker. The various shops around town are no longer used by anyone, and there isn't much else to do in cities, save the odd Guide event.What is definitely needed is to make the cities useful again, without disrupting the point of Guild Halls.How? By bringing in city invasions.I remember a wonderful game called Gemstone, a pure text based MMORPG (I won't demean it by calling it a MUD - it was far more than that), where the cities were always alive and useful.Invasions were the highlight - sometimes random, sometimes GM run - but always good.Basically, a ton of mobs would appear at the gates, and everyone would group together and repel them. Pretty simple really. Obviously they were pretty tough mobs to kill, and so would be in EQ2, good level 70-80 mobs. As we have such a high 80 level playerbase, that wouldn't be an issue.Loot off of these guys would be pretty top stuff - Fabled gear would be good. And because invasions would be fairly rare (maybe once or twice a month), with absolutely no warning, and at any time day or night, everyone would have a fairly equal chance of getting involved. As long as they were able to get to the cities on time.Warnings would be a good idea 'You seem to hear the rumbling of underground movement' occasionally just before an event. The idea being is that people would probably frequent the cities a bit more, in case an invasion happened. Of course, you wouldn't have to spend every waking hour there, but I am pretty sure more people would hang around a bit more - just in case.Another simple way to get the cities used more, is simply to add much better shop stuff, tiered for levels, and unavailable anywhere else. Nice things, like furniture, mounts, etc etc, anything useful that could only be gotten at certain levels - just to make the shops worth bothering with.Both of these options are pretty easy to impliment, and I truely believe it would go some way to making the cities worth botering with again.

Spyderbite

02-23-2009, 09:10 AM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>That sense of pride should have been enough. Don't you agree? That was always the initial thought behind Guild Halls.Who's initial thought was that? Yours? SOE's? Cause I don't recall reading anything from the latter stating that Guild Halls will exclusively be a source of pride and offer no other benefit.But reading the discussion topics about guild halls back then it was shockingly clear in there that most people didn't give a darn about pride.You're talking old school now. You can't get back that mentality that we players had back in the 90's when MMO's were new and raw. Heck, with that type of thinking.. toss FFA PvP on all the servers again while you're at it.Main problem being that it took SOE so frigging long to get them in, that most people had 5-room houses by now cranked with stuff. So Guild Halls being just a meeting place with expanded and specialised decoration functionality and extra big storage space (read Pride) wasn't enough anymore!Again.. had nothing to do with SOE. They choose to listen to what the Players wanted. Your peers. You keep blaming SOE for giving the majority of the player base what they were asking for. What were they to do? "No! You'll stay in the cities and immerse yourself, and like it!" <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />They just wanted basically the whole game in miniform crammed into it, so they could hide in it and had no need to go anywhere else. And that they also could isnta port to everywhere they wanted to.Players in EQ2 have always wanted this. Look back through the posts in tradeskill forum. You'll find many requests from players for broker, menders, bankers and fuel sales in their homes.Unfortunately for the majority of guilds that isn't on their agenda and they only care about all the ammenities. Several shocking reactions in this topic clearly show that.Why is it shocking? Gaming has changed a lot over the past 15 years. People have always asked for things to be easier or more convenient. And, others have dug their heels in the ground, in an attempt to preserve the old school feeling of risk and reward. The latter group is vastly out numbered these days. Its a sad fact that you're going to have to accept eventually.------Just take a look at other MMO's in wich their Main Cities are crowded with activity day in day out.Why has it never really been the same case with Quenos and Freeport?I know it was that case years ago. I know that all the dividing in zones and loading screens wasn't really helping.But the Guild Halls and how they have been implemented last year have basically been the final nail on the coffin for both Quenos and Freeport and several other hubs.Not to mention that a lot of zones have now trully died as well since then!This is about growth. Not neglect. The land has quintupled in size since back then. People spread out. Back in the days that you miss so much, there were only two starting cities.Bottom line.. what would you suggest? Pull all the ammenities out of the guild halls? Do you truly believe that people will be happy to socialize with you after losing hundreds in invested plat just because a handful of people were feeling a little lonely in Cities?I suppose they could launch a "Classic Server" for those like yourself who miss the "Good Old Days". But, I suspect you'd be much lonlier there than you are currently.</blockquote>

Tary

02-23-2009, 09:22 AM

NOBODY conversed with eachother while standing around EFP before guildhalls came out. Occasionally, I'd get asked for a port or sow, and even then...that's just a request, and it was quickly followed by "kthnxbye."Supposing the devs did spawn ~50 NPCs around who had character names and character name colors, would you be happy? They'd do exactly the same thing that PC's of the time you so love did: nothing. Yay, I get to see people! Woot!Completely pointless.

Tary

02-23-2009, 09:32 AM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>------And that showing a new player your guild hall seems more interesting than Quenos Harbor.That clearly shows in how SOE has been handling the game over the years, ingoring the potential of Cities to be huge social hubs.Just take a look at other MMO's in wich their Main Cities are crowded with activity day in day out.Why has it never really been the same case with Quenos and Freeport?I know it was that case years ago. I know that all the dividing in zones and loading screens wasn't really helping.But the Guild Halls and how they have been implemented last year have basically been the final nail on the coffin for both Quenos and Freeport and several other hubs.Not to mention that a lot of zones have now trully died as well since then!Cheers</blockquote>Games such as...?Qeynos and FP were crowded before GHs came into play. The crowding achieved absolutely nothing. If we only had some form of limited regional chat (such as /ooc and /shout), you'd have a good argument...but since we have global chat channels, there's no need for laggy "main-hubs." They serve no practical function beyond your perverse need to see the digital representations of people that you know are playing the game either way.Face the fact: you don't have a factual argument. What you have is an appeal to emotion. There's nothing logical about what you have to say on this matter...you just want to see characters roaming around, regardless of the cost to everyone else's enjoyment of the game.

guillero

02-23-2009, 09:58 AM

<cite>Taryth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>Games such as...?Qeynos and FP were crowded before GHs came into play. The crowding achieved absolutely nothing. If we only had some form of limited regional chat (such as /ooc and /shout), you'd have a good argument...but since we have global chat channels, there's no need for laggy "main-hubs." They serve no practical function beyond your perverse need to see the digital representations of people that you know are playing the game either way.Face the fact: you don't have a factual argument. What you have is an appeal to emotion. There's nothing logical about what you have to say on this matter...you just want to see characters roaming around, regardless of the cost to everyone else's enjoyment of the game.</blockquote>LOL! Seriously tho. If you see it all that way. Why not play a single player RPG then? Or something like NWN with just a couple people?No lag, no perversiveness.... aka no people around. Just NPC's how you seem to like it.To me MMORPG still stands for Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game and not GHIGORPG (Guilds Hiding In Guildhalls Online Roleplaying Game).These so called large Cities were big social hubs where people gathered (wich is still the case in WoW and LOTRO btw. just to give you an example) and gave you a sense of being part of very large server community! Both these games have global channels too. So you know.That's how people used to end up on friendlists, form groups, create guilds, recruit, gathered for RAID's, PVP, dungeons, whatever, etc.Now in Everquest 2 it's basically "Press U you stupid n00b! if you want to find a guild and meet people!". If you call that possitive progress or even evolution in MMO gaming?? Sorry tho, but I don't!!And that people in Quenos or Freeport didn't talk to you? Well... sorry to burst your bubble! It's because you are just as much part of that problem by appearently ignoring everyone else as well.If you ingore people and don't talk. Why would they talk to you? Ever thought about that!As when I was in QH people greeted me as I greeted them. People talked to me as I talked to them.When I was in the Crafting Exchange grinding orders or just do some crafting I always ended up talking with some people, sometimes even trading.Social interaction works both ways. If you ignore, be prepared to be ignored back! Simple as that!And that people never or hardly saw their guildies, before Guild Halls were added. Well sorry to burst their little bubbles too.... that is entirely their and their guild's problem!How come in the last guild I was in (wich I was part of for nearly 2 years) we never had that problem? I always met guildies frequently and we did stuff together most of the time?We didn't need the Guild Halls to interact, meet and socialize with eachother!It's just hilarious, or actually really sad to read that for many guilds and people, Guild Halls with all their ammenities, were a MUST HAVE to fix their social defunct within their guild!And again! I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. I never said that ammenities should be removed. Nor did I say I hate guild halls.I just expressed myself because what these ammenities have done to the game and specifically Cities and other large hubs! And how a large portion of the playerbase is now hidden within their Guild Halls.

Guy De Alsace

02-23-2009, 10:13 AM

With Guild Halls I see more of my guildies than I ever did before. The wider community exists on 1-9 chat. Voice chat has encouraged community interaction more than ever.People no longer stand around at the broker in Qeynos however they do now stand around in groups near the daily dungeon entrance flags <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

bryldan

02-23-2009, 10:23 AM

I am really curious now what you guys do not like about the GH and why you are on a mission to post this.Is it that like you say you feel that the cities are not immersed anymore?If that is the case why would you want to nerf the amentities? Why not just go on what a few suggested in here and make quests and stuff like that so ACITIVE people will flood the cities to accomplish these goals? Yet you seem to QUICKLY brush aside these comments so I can only think of one true reason why you have so much dislike for GHs.The true dislike is not the immersed aspect that they supposidly took away from you (there was NEVER any real immersion considering everyone just stood around AFK), but the fact that you are jealous of them for some reason. You keep pounding away that they have too many amentities and such and that it is the reason for your disgust in the game yet you will not accept any other RATIONAL way to fix the problem.. That can only mean you have one agenda and that is to completely kill GHs.Well guess what if they did that it would not only kill GHs it would more than likely kill the game. Would you want that?Instead of being on a mission to kill off guild halls make viable solutions to the problem you are having like other people have pointed out that you so handidly ignored and brushed aside.Seriously would you rather people in the city AFK just ignoring your a@@ or would you rather those people be running past you on some agenda to complete some quest (just using someones else's suggestion for this one which I think is a great idea)? These people running by might even ask you a question which is even MORE immersion than we had before GH OMG!!!!!!!!!! They might ask you where jim joe billy bob is for the new quest which is 10x more the conversation you probably had before GHs!!!! I would feel more immensed in the city in that case than a bunch of people standing around not saying or really doing anything...........

guillero

02-23-2009, 10:30 AM

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>With Guild Halls I see more of my guildies than I ever did before. The wider community exists on 1-9 chat. Voice chat has encouraged community interaction more than ever.People no longer stand around at the broker in Qeynos however they do now stand around in groups near the daily dungeon entrance flags <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Voice chat was just an added convenience. But reality check. Last time I recall most RAID groups still use Ventrilo or Teamspeak over this ingame Voicechat. So it didn't encourage anything, because Voicechat existed since the invention of online FPS games in form of Teamspeak and Ventrilo.Other games have this so called 1-9 chat too. Guess what? People still meet up in City Hubs in other MMO's.And so far, the only valid argument I have read in here so far, is that the Ammenities (and not Guild Halls itself) has brought their guild more together. In other words it was a baindaid fix for the social defunct within their guild.It just baffles me, the more I read this!Explain to me why exactly only in EverQuest2 guilds need public functions in form of ammeneties cranked into a small instance zone aka Guild Hall to get their Guild to function and their members to socially interact?How come that in other MMO's guilds never had and still haven't got that problem at all?I rest my case with that.

guillero

02-23-2009, 10:36 AM

<cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am really curious now what you guys do not like about the GH and why you are on a mission to post this.Is it that like you say you feel that the cities are not immersed anymore?If that is the case why would you want to nerf the amentities? Why not just go on what a few suggested in here and make quests and stuff like that so ACITIVE people will flood the cities to accomplish these goals? Yet you seem to QUICKLY brush aside these comments so I can only think of one true reason why you have so much dislike for GHs.The true dislike is not the immersed aspect that they supposidly took away from you (there was NEVER any real immersion considering everyone just stood around AFK), but the fact that you are jealous of them for some reason. You keep pounding away that they have too many amentities and such and that it is the reason for your disgust in the game yet you will not accept any other RATIONAL way to fix the problem.. That can only mean you have one agenda and that is to completely kill GHs.Well guess what if they did that it would not only kill GHs it would more than likely kill the game. Would you want that?Instead of being on a mission to kill off guild halls make viable solutions to the problem you are having like other people have pointed out that you so handidly ignored and brushed aside.Seriously would you rather people in the city AFK just ignoring your a@@ or would you rather those people be running past you on some agenda to complete some quest (just using someones else's suggestion for this one which I think is a great idea)? These people running by might even ask you a question which is even MORE immersion than we had before GH OMG!!!!!!!!!! They might ask you where jim joe billy bob is for the new quest which is 10x more the conversation you probably had before GHs!!!! I would feel more immensed in the city in that case than a bunch of people standing around not saying or really doing anything...........</blockquote>If any of you people actually tried to read my posts, instead of just ignoring it and blindly assuming I have a sincere hate against Guild Halls, wich isn't the case at all..... just for their convenience to burn me down.People have made plenty of suggestions over the years towards SOE in how to improve Quenos and Freeport. How to turn them into actaul big social hubs, wich happens to work in cities in many other MMO's over the years. To make them more viable and give people more reason and viability to go their cities.But guess what? SOE never ever did anything with these suggestions and these people were just totally ignored!So guess what then? These people then just give up and don't bother anymore.

Faenril

02-23-2009, 11:00 AM

If your point is to revamp/improve the cities to make them more attractive (you get all my support for that), then probably you should change the title of your thread. Because right now it's just a flame bait for all the "pro guild hall" crew.

Umbrage

02-23-2009, 11:03 AM

What exactly did it do for you before to see people standing at the broker or the bank, not talking or interacting with you in any way? How does that add anything to the game?This argument comes up every few weeks and I find it rather baffling.I guess its like this in a way.......If your walking to work how many people do you talk to? If you go to a football game, how many people do you hang out with and party with? If your at work and its a big office how many of those do you interact with. If you go to the doctors office, how many people in the waiting room do you converse with and interact with?My guess is a minimal amount. But there is comfort in seeing them, knowing they are there and feeling their presence even if you do not talk to them or interact with 99.9 percent of them.So too is Everquest. Its a comfort to know they are there even if you dont interact with 99.9 percent of them. Its nice to see them standing around the broker same as you. Or waiting for the boat. Same as you. Or using the tradeskill area, same as you.I rather suspect if all those people went poof from your real world it would be sorely missed. Some people just miss them more then others. I rather suspect this is the case with this argument.The emptiness of towns and zones is why you hear statements like "This game is dieing." Perhaps its not but the ghost town feel of it sure seems to support that theory.

guillero

02-23-2009, 11:10 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your point is to revamp/improve the cities to make them more attractive (you get all my support for that), then probably you should change the title of your thread. Because right now it's just a flame bait for all the "pro guild hall" crew.</blockquote>You got a valid point.

Tary

02-23-2009, 12:48 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taryth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>Games such as...?Qeynos and FP were crowded before GHs came into play. The crowding achieved absolutely nothing. If we only had some form of limited regional chat (such as /ooc and /shout), you'd have a good argument...but since we have global chat channels, there's no need for laggy "main-hubs." They serve no practical function beyond your perverse need to see the digital representations of people that you know are playing the game either way.Face the fact: you don't have a factual argument. What you have is an appeal to emotion. There's nothing logical about what you have to say on this matter...you just want to see characters roaming around, regardless of the cost to everyone else's enjoyment of the game.</blockquote>LOL! Seriously tho. If you see it all that way. Why not play a single player RPG then? Or something like NWN with just a couple people?No lag, no perversiveness.... aka no people around. Just NPC's how you seem to like it.To me MMORPG still stands for Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game and not GHIGORPG (Guilds Hiding In Guildhalls Online Roleplaying Game).These so called large Cities were big social hubs where people gathered (wich is still the case in WoW and LOTRO btw. just to give you an example) and gave you a sense of being part of very large server community! Both these games have global channels too. So you know.That's how people used to end up on friendlists, form groups, create guilds, recruit, gathered for RAID's, PVP, dungeons, whatever, etc.Now in Everquest 2 it's basically "Press U you stupid n00b! if you want to find a guild and meet people!". If you call that possitive progress or even evolution in MMO gaming?? Sorry tho, but I don't!!And that people in Quenos or Freeport didn't talk to you? Well... sorry to burst your bubble! It's because you are just as much part of that problem by appearently ignoring everyone else as well.If you ingore people and don't talk. Why would they talk to you? Ever thought about that!As when I was in QH people greeted me as I greeted them. People talked to me as I talked to them.When I was in the Crafting Exchange grinding orders or just do some crafting I always ended up talking with some people, sometimes even trading.Social interaction works both ways. If you ignore, be prepared to be ignored back! Simple as that!And that people never or hardly saw their guildies, before Guild Halls were added. Well sorry to burst their little bubbles too.... that is entirely their and their guild's problem!How come in the last guild I was in (wich I was part of for nearly 2 years) we never had that problem? I always met guildies frequently and we did stuff together most of the time?We didn't need the Guild Halls to interact, meet and socialize with eachother!It's just hilarious, or actually really sad to read that for many guilds and people, Guild Halls with all their ammenities, were a MUST HAVE to fix their social defunct within their guild!And again! I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. I never said that ammenities should be removed. Nor did I say I hate guild halls.I just expressed myself because what these ammenities have done to the game and specifically Cities and other large hubs! And how a large portion of the playerbase is now hidden within their Guild Halls.</blockquote>Straw man.You know exactly how I play. I am a crass jerk who doesn;t speak with anyone. Yes, that's exactly how it is. I ignore the entire population and go about my business.I never said I didn't group, fool. Nor have you observed my in-game interactions. I actively converse in level chat. I don't need to be standing next to someone to /say something to them.I think you're deluding yourself.

Zarador

02-23-2009, 01:25 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>If any of you people actually tried to read my posts, instead of just ignoring it and blindly assuming I have a sincere hate against Guild Halls, wich isn't the case at all..... just for their convenience to burn me down.People have made plenty of suggestions over the years towards SOE in how to improve Quenos and Freeport. How to turn them into actaul big social hubs, wich happens to work in cities in many other MMO's over the years. To make them more viable and give people more reason and viability to go their cities.But guess what? SOE never ever did anything with these suggestions and these people were just totally ignored!So guess what then? These people then just give up and don't bother anymore.</blockquote>I read your posts:<ol><li>You beleive that the Guild halls that have the amenities had them somehow "gifted" to them instead of realizing the amount of time that went into obtaining them. They built halls with their efforts and just like anyone looking to progress their character, they looked to progress their guild.</li><li>You feel that Guild Halls should be less functional and more fluff. Take pride in the fluff and leave it at that. Does Shard gear do that? Here are appearence slot items that hold no value, but they look cool and everyone will know how much time you put into that effort? Of course not. You put in time and effort to get a reward that is above average. Same with Guilds.</li><li>You complain that the guild halls made players unsocial. Guilded players already have a social netowrk that they partisipate in. Their rewards are the fellowship and the halls that they created. 20 players running around a town using the brokers and the docks do not make a social network. It simply means you had to hit town for repairs and sales, or a dock to get out of there asap to head out to the real social zones.</li><li>You complain that crafters don't socialize in the town crafting areas. Well, I have several level 80 crafters and can't say that I socialize very much in the middle of crafting. I don't think I would attempt to socialize with any "professional" in real life while they were attempting to focus on their "craft". Not to mention you don't attack the crafting instances where many players craft now in Mara from 50-70.</li><li>You don't grasp the concept that a large guild hall is a mini-city created by and for the guild that works together in the game. They support the hall and the hall supports them. </li><li>You don't grasp the concept that "Roleplay" is an optional aspect of the game. Some people choose to stay with their seleceted group of friends, go out and do what they like to do together and then return to a central place, again with their friends and do what it is they have to do there. That does not make them unsociable, it makes them selective. </li></ol>The concept behind Guild Halls is "work hard enough together and we will allow you to create a functional city where you are rewarded for those efforts".When people really enjoy something in a game, they tend to do just that. The fact that so many players rather be in a Guild Hall means they prefer that atmosphere. The fact that the cities seem empty now to those who don't belong to such halls further proves that point. Either be a part of it or accept that you made that choice and move on.Most fast food places have a drive up window. Some people prefer to eat inside, some stand in line to get take out food and others use the drive up window. It's just a matter of choice, nothing more. Am I being unsocial if I choose to pick up my food as fast as possible, with no "social interaction" so I can go home and be with friends and family?

scruffylookin

02-23-2009, 01:29 PM

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, guild halls are fantastic additions and should NOT be removed. But they have (along with increased instancing) made it harder for new players to find guilds. And they have made guilds much more invisible to the world at large.</blockquote>I disagree completely. Not only do I see multiple (at LEAST 5) guilds advertising every single day for more members, all those guilds with guild halls, but I see 2 or 3 guilds a week being created, and I only play in certain time slots (in other words, there's probably a half dozen to a dozen new guilds popping up every week).So any new player who has 2 brain cells to rub together would notice fairly quickly that guilds are a good thing and would likely join one of the spammer guilds. Grow up a few levels and join a better guild. The amenities alone sell the concept of why a guild is a positive thing.The only new players that would struggle with the concept are those that have never played an MMO, ever, and if they are intelligent, they would ask some questions and figure it out in no time.</blockquote>The only guilds I see advertising in the channel chat are the tiny, starting guilds that arent usually around for long. The larger, more stable guilds (I can think of three on my server, but again, I only know them because of the pre-guild hall/pre-TSO days... they're simply not seen anymore) rarely advertise in the level chat. Matter of fact, I don't think I've ever seen it. These guilds used to be known by everyone on the server, now new players typically have no idea who they are.My only point was that before guild halls, these guilds were a major part of our server. They were a part of the server's very atmostphere. Today, they're practically invisible b/c they're meeting in the guild hall, talking in the guild chat, and adventuring in instances. I'm sorry that you disagree, but this is something I've actively noticed for a while now. The big, stable guilds are now secluded and it's very much like they're not playing the game with the rest of the server at all. This isn't anything bad against them. Not at all. It's the mechanics. They've worked it out so these guilds pretty much just play on their own servers.Now, before you start to think that I'm saying guild halls are a terrible thing, I'm not. Not at all. I don't agree with the OP that they are the reason cities are empty now. There are tons of reasons. I also don't think guild halls should be removed. Instead, I think cities should be improved. And I think we should work on ways to make the bigger guilds more visible to the community at large.... but my point was that a flat denial that they've lost any visibility is the surest way to guarantee it never gets addressed.

liveja

02-23-2009, 01:30 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Last time I recall most RAID groups still use Ventrilo or Teamspeak over this ingame Voicechat. So it didn't encourage anything, because Voicechat existed since the invention of online FPS games in form of Teamspeak and Ventrilo.[snip]Explain to me why exactly only in EverQuest2 guilds need public functions in form of ammeneties cranked into a small instance zone aka Guild Hall to get their Guild to function and their members to socially interact?How come that in other MMO's guilds never had and still haven't got that problem at all?.</blockquote>Slight thread derailment: I hate Ventrilo & TeamSpeak, & strongly prefer the in-game voice chat.As to your second question ... I'd say that if other games HAD the guild halls that EQ2 has, they'd be better off. That's especially true of WoW, because I could totally escape from the disgustingly cretinous "player base" & hide away in my guild hall. Those other games don't have guild halls, because they haven't yet copied the idea from SOE; IOW, they just haven't gotten around to rolling them out, yet.But I can assure you that the subject of player housing & guild halls has been kicked around in several other MMOs for a long, long time ... & now that SOE has them, it won't be long before the others do, too.

Spritelady

02-23-2009, 02:13 PM

Lets see...I no longer have some idiot coming and trying to dry hump me or my mount in QH.I no longer get lagged to hell by the Uber_toon_01 who feels he has to pull every Qeynosian guard in the zone and fight them right in front of Antonia's statue.I no longer have to deal with idiots opening portals on top of the broker.I no longer have to deal with people who stand on top of the broker on huge mounts so you can't click on him, just to be jerks.I no longer have to deal with buying a ticket to travel to TS or Nek to zone multiple times to get where I want to go (Bell to Bell to Bell - Where is the exploration there? OHBOY I GET TO SEE THE DOCKS IN 3 zones!)I no longer have to deal with the beggars asking me for plats.I no longer have to listen to the /shout CAN SOMEONE OPEN A PORT TO Zone X! Over and over and over and over.On Kith, Qeynos Harbor was nothing more than a place to stand around AFK and show off your stuff, a place for the more idiotic people to make life difficult for others, a place that if you were actually at your keyboard and not a jerk, you probably didn't want to spend any more time in than you absolutely had to.So IMO, Guild Halls improved the quality of game play. I have successfully eliminated more than 1/2 of the arsehattery that annoyed me by simply supporting my guild hall!

Motzi

02-23-2009, 02:16 PM

<cite>Spritelady wrote:</cite><blockquote>So IMO, Guild Halls improved the quality of game play. I have successfully eliminated more than 1/2 of the arsehattery that annoyed me by simply supporting my guild hall!</blockquote>QFEAll the social interaction happens in server chat anyway. Whether there are people in the city zones or not matters not.

Kendricke

02-23-2009, 02:17 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Voice chat was just an added convenience. But reality check. Last time I recall most RAID groups still use Ventrilo or Teamspeak over this ingame Voicechat. So it didn't encourage anything, because Voicechat existed since the invention of online FPS games in form of Teamspeak and Ventrilo.</blockquote>Now guilds that never raid have voicechat, too. Now random pick-up groups use voicechat, too. There are random open voicechat channels across multiple servers. There's a difference between privately owned ventrillo servers and free voicechat for all. It's like saying, "I don't see the big deal in the government giving EVERYONE free cars - after all, I've ALWAYS owned a car."<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Explain to me why exactly only in EverQuest2 guilds need public functions in form of ammeneties cranked into a small instance zone aka Guild Hall to get their Guild to function and their members to socially interact?</blockquote>Short answer: they don't.Longer answer with explanation: Guilds have always socially interacted. They've used guildchat. They've set up groups, raids, and other events. They've used forums. They've met in real life. Seriously, statements that indicate guild members never "socially interacted" before guild halls are simply false. Guilds have always interacted. However, I don't even think that's what you're really asking here. You're wondering why my in-game avatar never casually bumped into the in-game avatars of most of my guildmates' on a nightly basis. I've already explained this in a post you quoted, but I'll happily do so again in a different way: the game is based around five starting cities which are cross factioned. A Neriak citizen can't just "hang out" in Qeynos Harbor any more than a Qeynos citizen can just "hang out" in Freeport. The mechanics of the game are and always have been set up around the concept that the cities don't like outsiders from opposing factions. Guild halls negate that problem, as well as creating convienent cross-faction travel/tradeskill/shopping hubs.Talking about "lazy players" as you did earlier is like asking why shopping malls tend to attract more customers than stand alone stores and boutiques. The simple truth is that convienence is convienent. I realize how ridiculously simple that sounds. That's because it's ridiculously simple. Just like electricity, people are hard wired to search for the path of least resistance. That's not "lazy". That's efficient. It's also a way of heavily, heavily encouraging players to either form or join solid, organized guilds. It's no secret that more and more MMO's are including more and more features to attract and retain strong guilds. Guilds are social networks unto themselves and always have been. Even in games where there are no formal guild creation systems, players still form guilds and clans (i.e. - RTS/FPS games, for example). Before there were formal guild banks, players created elaborate character sharing systems to bypass that limitation. Before there were formal guild halls, players made do with whatever housing concept they could get away with to share resources. Guild halls weren't built as a way for guilds to finally socially interact. Guilds were always socially interacting. Guild halls were simply a new tool to help facilitate further interaction that wasn't actually convenient (or even possible, in some cases) prior to their introduction. More to the point, I'd argue that guild halls weren't primarily built for interaction at all. I'd argue the actual primary goal of a guildhall was as a starting/ending point for guilded players - a reward for guilding. The fact that more and more players are using their guildhalls instead of Qeynos Harbor or East Freeport is a reaction to better, faster, more accessible mechanics. Honestly, why would anyone willingly use Queen's Colony to level up once they find out about Timorous Deep? Why would anyone willingly stick around the Freeport sewers for levelling once they find out about Darklight Woods? As the game evolves, more players migrate and congregate to areas which are better, faster, or more accessible. I'm proud of my guild. I'm proud of the work my members put in so we could afford our packed Tier 3 fortress. We're on Guk server and the doors are open to anyone who wants to come out to Antonica docks to see our guildhall. Chances are that at any given time, day or night, you show up to see what we've done with the place...you'll find at least a handful of Legionnaires inside. The rest of us are out and about as we've always done, still in guildchat. The difference is that if we decide to get together in virtual person, we're now only a single Call of Guildhall away from each other - no matter where we are in the world of Norrath.

Loolee

02-23-2009, 02:18 PM

<cite>Spritelady wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets see...I no longer have some idiot coming and trying to dry hump me or my mount in QH.I no longer get lagged to hell by the Uber_toon_01 who feels he has to pull every Qeynosian guard in the zone and fight them right in front of Antonia's statue.I no longer have to deal with idiots opening portals on top of the broker.I no longer have to deal with people who stand on top of the broker on huge mounts so you can't click on him, just to be jerks.I no longer have to deal with buying a ticket to travel to TS or Nek to zone multiple times to get where I want to go (Bell to Bell to Bell - Where is the exploration there? OHBOY I GET TO SEE THE DOCKS IN 3 zones!)I no longer have to deal with the beggars asking me for plats.I no longer have to listen to the /shout CAN SOMEONE OPEN A PORT TO Zone X! Over and over and over and over.On Kith, Qeynos Harbor was nothing more than a place to stand around AFK and show off your stuff, a place for the more idiotic people to make life difficult for others, a place that if you were actually at your keyboard and not a jerk, you probably didn't want to spend any more time in than you absolutely had to.So IMO, Guild Halls improved the quality of game play. I have successfully eliminated more than 1/2 of the arsehattery that annoyed me by simply supporting my guild hall!</blockquote>QFE

liveja

02-23-2009, 02:23 PM

<cite>Spritelady wrote:</cite><blockquote>So IMO, Guild Halls improved the quality of game play. I have successfully eliminated more than 1/2 of the arsehattery that annoyed me by simply supporting my guild hall!</blockquote>I <3 Spritelady, Spritelady wins.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

guillero

02-23-2009, 02:27 PM

<cite>Loolee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spritelady wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets see...I no longer have some idiot coming and trying to dry hump me or my mount in QH.I no longer get lagged to hell by the Uber_toon_01 who feels he has to pull every Qeynosian guard in the zone and fight them right in front of Antonia's statue.I no longer have to deal with idiots opening portals on top of the broker.I no longer have to deal with people who stand on top of the broker on huge mounts so you can't click on him, just to be jerks.I no longer have to deal with buying a ticket to travel to TS or Nek to zone multiple times to get where I want to go (Bell to Bell to Bell - Where is the exploration there? OHBOY I GET TO SEE THE DOCKS IN 3 zones!)I no longer have to deal with the beggars asking me for plats.I no longer have to listen to the /shout CAN SOMEONE OPEN A PORT TO Zone X! Over and over and over and over.On Kith, Qeynos Harbor was nothing more than a place to stand around AFK and show off your stuff, a place for the more idiotic people to make life difficult for others, a place that if you were actually at your keyboard and not a jerk, you probably didn't want to spend any more time in than you absolutely had to.So IMO, Guild Halls improved the quality of game play. I have successfully eliminated more than 1/2 of the arsehattery that annoyed me by simply supporting my guild hall!</blockquote>QFE</blockquote>What QFE? How about rolling a different server? O.oHow come all the points she mentioned I never really experienced on Splitpaw?Sure you had the ocasional idiot now and then. But it was rather rare.To me it seems she really hates her server. But that doesn't mean every server is like that and so full of idiots like on his.You won't hear me saying that Splitpaw is the perfect server or anything, but what she dedcribed in her post I have never really experienced that bad at all.

Loolee

02-23-2009, 02:30 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Loolee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spritelady wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets see...So IMO, Guild Halls improved the quality of game play. I have successfully eliminated more than 1/2 of the arsehattery that annoyed me by simply supporting my guild hall!</blockquote>QFE</blockquote>What QFE? How about rolling a different server? O.oHow come all the points he mentioned I never really experienced on Splitpaw?Sure you had the ocasional idiot now and then. But it was rather rare.To me it seems he really hates his server. But that doesn't mean every server is like that and so full of idiots like on his.You won't hear me saying that Splitpaw is the perfect server or anything, but what he dedcribed in his post I have never really experienced that bad at all.</blockquote>Because I have had toons on other servers and I see all the same stuff there as well. I'm glad you've had such stellar experiences on Splitpaw, but for me, the guild halls are a boon, not a bane.

Spritelady

02-23-2009, 02:32 PM

1. I am a SHE not a HE (Would think SpriteLADY would give that away)2. I am a leader of a relatively successful quild and have played on this server for over 4 years. Why would I want to move to a server where I don't know anyone?3. I don't hate my server, I just hate jerks and while Kith seems to have its fair share, I would say every server does, aside from maybe RP... you just have flakes there <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />.Guess you are lucky you haven't seen it on your server(Edited for spelling)

NANEEJE

02-23-2009, 02:42 PM

We pay a crapton of platinum peices into the system to fund the guild halls. Did you ever walk into Qyenos and hand the guy at the door some pp just for being able to use the amenities there in Qyenos? NO.... you didn't. But yet you still have your house too as well huh? So... Where the heck is all that PP going if you don't mind me asking ?

Azekah1

02-23-2009, 02:48 PM

If your in a guild, with a guild hall...you won't complain about this.Find a good guild, that has a good guild hall, and see how much it means to be in a guild that has a guild hall.Did I use the word guild too much?

Spritelady

02-23-2009, 02:52 PM

Loolee

02-23-2009, 02:55 PM

<cite>Spritelady wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your in a guild, with a guild hall...you won't complain about this.Find a good guild, that has a good guild hall, and see how much it means to be in a guild that has a guild hall.Did I use the word guild too much?</blockquote>LOL!I know on Kithicor, an unguilded player is rarity. Usually you will find they are a low level alt that the person hasn't decided if they plan to keep yet or a fresh server Xfer.There might be a few here and there that just don't have the desire to be in a guild or they feel that due to their limited play time no guild will have them.. But there are always guilds like Grenrick's Guidance that will take just about anyone.</blockquote>That's been my experience lately as well. I can't even get a toon off the noobie island before I'm having folks invite me to their guild. There are plenty of guilds willing to take on new folks and show them the ropes. Unless you are shy and have turned of lvl_1-9 chat, then you will find lots of interaction going on, just not face to face.

guillero

02-23-2009, 02:58 PM

<cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your in a guild, with a guild hall...you won't complain about this.Find a good guild, that has a good guild hall, and see how much it means to be in a guild that has a guild hall.Did I use the word guild too much?</blockquote>The guild I was in had a Tier 3 guild hall and all the ammenities we could get!And ofcourse we were proud of our guild hall!Me and my gf left EQ2 in december last year shortly after the Station Cash stealth patch.But my gf missed EQ2 too much, so we wanted to give it another go and returned last week.We were just shocked to see everything turned into complete ghost towns and hardly seeing any player around anymore.Even my gf, who is a more of a hardcore fan of EQ2 than I am, was instantly turned off to see what happened to the server and how basically the entire population have hidden themselves inside their guild halls.I have talked privately with many old friends on our server and at least on my server all of them dare to admit that it's because of all these amenities people have absolutely no reason anymore to go to a city or other hub.That's why I started this topic.It was NEVER EVER ment to be turned into a flamefest. I never said I hate guild halls, as in fact I love them.I only said that I was extremely dissapointed to see what amenities have done to the Cities and turned basically the whole server community into hiding.

Kordran

02-23-2009, 03:02 PM

<cite>Loolee wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's been my experience lately as well. I can't even get a toon off the noobie island before I'm having folks invite me to their guild. There are plenty of guilds willing to take on new folks and show them the ropes. Unless you are shy and have turned of lvl_1-9 chat, then you will find lots of interaction going on, just not face to face.</blockquote>Absolutely. There's no shortage of "training guilds" who openly advertise for new players and will help them find groups, gear up and so on. Some raiding guilds also use their alt guild as a "feeder guild" to find new players who may eventually be a quality addition to their raidforce once they hit level 80.Oh, and Flaye just an off-topic note about the in-game voice chat. It's great for single groups, particularly if you have a few people out of guild (a lot easier than passing around Ventrillo/TS connection info), but in truth it doesn't hold up very well with raids. It's why most raiding guilds tend not to use it; random cutouts, dropped players and borked channels that can't be joined is not a good thing when you're in the middle of a tough fight. In short, the in-game voice service just doesn't scale up very well. Not to mention that you can keep talking to your raidforce in Vent if you crash/lag out; you can't do that with the game voice (e.g.: "I just went linkdead, you need to get someone over here to click this statue ASAP!")

Spritelady

02-23-2009, 03:03 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your in a guild, with a guild hall...you won't complain about this.Find a good guild, that has a good guild hall, and see how much it means to be in a guild that has a guild hall.Did I use the word guild too much?</blockquote>The guild I was in had a Tier 3 guild hall and all the ammenities we could get!And ofcourse we were proud of our guild hall!Me and my gf left EQ2 in december last year shortly after the Station Cash stealth patch.But my gf missed EQ2 too much, so we wanted to give it another go and returned last week.We were just shocked to see everything turned into complete ghost towns and hardly seeing any player around anymore.Even my gf, who is a more of a hardcore fan of EQ2 than I am, was instantly turned off to see what happened to the server and how basically the entire population have hidden themselves inside their guild halls.I have talked privately with many old friends on our server and at least on my server all of them dare to admit that it's because of all these amenities people have absolutely no reason anymore to go to a city or other hub.That's why I started this topic.It was NEVER EVER ment to be turned into a flamefest. I never said I hate guild halls, as in fact I love them.I only said that I was extremely dissapointed to see what amenities have done to the Cities and turned basically the whole server community into hiding.</blockquote>I think the point you are missing tho is the vast majority of people only went to the cities to broker/mend/bank and had no real interest in interacting with the people there and wanted to get the heck out of the city as fast as possible. The only ones who really seemed to hang out in the cities were people who were broker brokers (looking for the ultimate deal, buying low to resell higher etc) and AFK people looking to show off their gear. Other than that, most people that were in the cities were just waiting to find someone they could harass to feel good about themselves.

Cele

02-23-2009, 03:07 PM

Many of us never interacted with strangers in the cities...that is the point people are trying to make with you. Many of us do not see this huge issue you see.Amenities keep people in the game and playing. I dont have to zone a bazillion times to get where I want to go. I don't have to look thru mount rear ends to click on the broker.I dont have to deal with horrible lag to to particle effect fests from raiders standing in QH 10 hours straight while the actual player is at work or school. I mean, come on....passing AFK players in the city was not a sense of community in any way shape or form.Now, I have a deeper sense of community in my hall. My small guild only has a T1 hall in NQ, and have chosen out 15 amentiies to center around crafting and traveling. It is a great sense of community to hang out with guildies doing writs in our hall.

guillero

02-23-2009, 03:13 PM

<cite>Spritelady wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your in a guild, with a guild hall...you won't complain about this.Find a good guild, that has a good guild hall, and see how much it means to be in a guild that has a guild hall.Did I use the word guild too much?</blockquote>The guild I was in had a Tier 3 guild hall and all the ammenities we could get!And ofcourse we were proud of our guild hall!Me and my gf left EQ2 in december last year shortly after the Station Cash stealth patch.But my gf missed EQ2 too much, so we wanted to give it another go and returned last week.We were just shocked to see everything turned into complete ghost towns and hardly seeing any player around anymore.Even my gf, who is a more of a hardcore fan of EQ2 than I am, was instantly turned off to see what happened to the server and how basically the entire population have hidden themselves inside their guild halls.I have talked privately with many old friends on our server and at least on my server all of them dare to admit that it's because of all these amenities people have absolutely no reason anymore to go to a city or other hub.That's why I started this topic.It was NEVER EVER ment to be turned into a flamefest. I never said I hate guild halls, as in fact I love them.I only said that I was extremely dissapointed to see what amenities have done to the Cities and turned basically the whole server community into hiding.</blockquote>I think the point you are missing tho is the vast majority of people only went to the cities to broker/mend/bank and had no real interest in interacting with the people there and wanted to get the heck out of the city as fast as possible. The only ones who really seemed to hang out in the cities were people who were broker brokers (looking for the ultimate deal, buying low to resell higher etc) and AFK people looking to show off their gear. Other than that, most people that were in the cities were just waiting to find someone they could harass to feel good about themselves.</blockquote>I am sorry that your server (and appearently most of the non-RP servers) tend out to be that way mostly full of hardcore raiders only cairing for gear and show it off.Sure we have a few of these guilds on Splitpaw too and we saw them standing in front of the statue every night.You know what? It made us laugh and we joked about those people a lot.We even went to QH on regular basis just to have a look wich show off would be standing in front of the statue this time to have a good laugh.Plenty of people were AFK or non-interactive, but still there we plenty of people that were actually very much interactive. (maybe because we have several big RP guilds on our server as we Euro's don't have an official RP server)There was almost always something going on in Quenos. Not always, but most of the time it was.It just added to the immersion and gave you a confidence check the server was pretty much alive.People were more likely to ask questions in /say and /ooc and so a lot of time you ended up in dialog, made new friends and grouped up with new people doing a quest or dungeon here and there./say and /ooc is now totally dead. Cities are dead. Lot of zones and Travel hubs have turned dead as well.And that is just a shame.

Spritelady

02-23-2009, 03:20 PM

I think your bigger problem is you want more Role Play. =)But seriously, what could be more ROLE PLAY than a medeival keep where your clan gathers? In the Olde Days most Clans had their own Keep, Village and crafters. Larger cities were populated by homeless (guildless), underprivilged (nonguilded), loaners (people who don't want to interact or had jobs that kept them from having real homes, such as fishermen or sailors) or courtiers (people attached to their sovereign).Guild halls seem to be in keeping with the feel of medeival times to me =D

guillero

02-23-2009, 03:29 PM

<cite>Spritelady wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think your bigger problem is you want more Role Play. =)But seriously, what could be more ROLE PLAY than a medeival keep where your clan gathers? In the Olde Days most Clans had their own Keep, Village and crafters. Larger cities were populated by homeless (guildless), underprivilged (nonguilded), loaners (people who don't want to interact or had jobs that kept them from having real homes, such as fishermen or sailors) or courtiers (people attached to their sovereign).Guild halls seem to be in keeping with the feel of medeival times to me =D</blockquote>It isn't about roleplay at all.It's the sense of the Massive Multiplayer Online feel that is gone within EverQuest 2 at the moment.Hiding inside a guild hall with some guildies doesn't give me that MMO feel. More like a Never Winter Nights feel.Seeing people roaming around in cities, travel hubs, zones to harvest and such.Sometimes having to curse because of a kill steal or someone hijacking a harvest node right in front of you.It's all these little things that add up and make the MMO experience complete.Ofcourse I liked spending time within the guild hall with my guild mates, but I just as much enjoyed spending my time outside the hall in the cities and gameworld with others.Now basically the only experience left is either inside a guild hall or some (Raid) instance.

Iamken

02-23-2009, 03:34 PM

Everyone who has played EQ1 knew this was going to happen. As soon as Plane of Knowledge was available the major cities became ghost towns. Then when Guild Halls were introduced the Plane of Knowledge emptied for the most part.I am okay with it. If I need a group I just advertise in the channels. I don't really need to see people running around. I know they are about somewhere. =)

Thunndar316

02-23-2009, 04:00 PM

I will just say this.Take away my guild hall, and I /quit.Love em!

Cele

02-23-2009, 04:04 PM

<cite>Quinleigh@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>(SNIP) If I need a group I just advertise in the channels. I don't really need to see people running around. I know they are about somewhere. =)</blockquote>QFE QFE QFE I don't need to see a toon to know they are there. All I have to do is choose the proper channel and type what I am looking for.

Bran

02-23-2009, 04:49 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Exactly,And you know what's so sad? I log into Halgar server in Vanguard and there I lately see people everywhere! Isle of Dawn has more then 60 people in the zone right now!Most of the hubs I see people roaming around. Hence, the whole game feels more alive then EverQuest 2 atm!How the irony! Wouldn't you say? A game that so many people consider dead! A game that has far less players than EverQuest 2! Feels more alive and more active atm then EverQuest2!</blockquote>I like how you keep adding "atm" because that's probably very accurate. "At This Minute"I just came back to EQ2 after playing Vanguard for a while and I'm putting many hours into alt creation and just relearning the game from the ground up. Vanguard's Isle of Dawn is crowded because of three reasons: (1) The more experienced players make alts there for the little rabbits foot charm, the equipment and the easy acquisition of crafting skill, (2) Because all of the more experienced players tell them in /ooc and on the forums to start at the Isle of Dawn and (3) Because that's the free trial. I've probably made 15 alts in the last couple of weeks and if we gathered all of the EQ2 newbie areas into one area then EQ2 would be almost as populated as the Isle of Dawn.Bah, population and seeing many people has it's drawbacks. Last night in the Qeynos good newbie zone I had a couple on horses with little critter pets racing around collecting crafting items as fast as they could, even the ones that I moving toward to harvest! hahah. In the cities I see NPC's going about their business or standing around waiting for me to speak to them and the city feels alive. Qeynos, North, South and Harbor, have many people moving around, especially in the underground crafting areas, at the banks and also the Broker. Heck, last night I accused a really high leveled, beautiful, female of stalking me because everywhere I went she came to also! Of course I was kidding and made sure she knew that, but saying that Qeynos is a ghost town is a little inaccurate because "at that minute" when I was running around I saw at least a dozen people. I forgive myself for misusing the term "lag" to describe the stuttering that occurs when other players cast spells or otherwise run by or interact with me. IF there were a thirty, forty, a hundred players in those Qeynos zones I'd probably not be able to enjoy my game time. Anyway, I'm sorry that you are unhappy with the quantity of people around you. Send a list of your character names to Makr and he'll make sure that he tracks you down to say hello. (does the fat man's happy dance at being so helpful)

Azekah1

02-23-2009, 04:55 PM

Listen Guillenor,I understand where you're coming from, I really do...But what YOU have to understand is what guild halls have done for guilds. Rather than just being a loose collection of players, having a central location where you can all group up, craft, trade, and generally just hang it makes a WORLD of difference.Sure, the general feel of the areas outside of guild halls is affected, but I think if you're in a guild you enjoy, this isn't even noticable because your spending most of your time surrounding by your guildies.In essence, we've traded our loose global assocation, with a much tighter guild association. And tbh, I prefer the new system...On a side note, our guild hosts our weekly guild meeting on the East Freeport docks. This was our process before we got a hall, and we thought about moving it to the guild hall, but it's nice to get out at least every once in a while : )

Zarador

02-23-2009, 07:41 PM

Since the OP started with Guild Halls being the downfall, then changed it to cities needing an "attraction" to have people gather there more often. What attractions could one possibly add to draw the people out of the Guild Halls?Our Guild Hall does not yet have the Portals. (It's T-1, SFP). We exit, jump off the mast, repair at the mender, sell at the merchant and zone right out to EFP to get to whatever jump off point we need. Most the time we have a porting class in the group and eliminate the docks completely.Prior to that most of us resided in Neriak where we would bind right in the middle of Dockside so we could make a very quick run and be on our way.So now we have a "place to call our own". Were a small guild with only 6 unique accounts. Yet, even as a small guild, it was worth it to create a place where we could log in, do our crafting, check the broker and take some pride in fixing up the place. I don't have to sit in Qeynos and craft on my level 16 Adventurer (63 Crafter) while my girlfriend is logged in and crafting in Neriak on her character because they would be killed by the city guards if they attempted to craft together. We don't have to run around with full bags and banks because of the Harvesting Depot. We can do crafting instances in Mara by using the stones they sell (until we can afford the Portal to Mara) and then gate right back to the guild hall and continue to craft in safety.Maybe we don;t have all the good portals in place yet, but already it has almost eliminated the city faction issues between our characters. This allows us to move about far better and easier to do the things we enjoy doing.The Guild Halls have "enabled" their members to socialize in a commen place as well as to rally quicker to their members for raids and groups. Crafters get to enjoy being around the adventurers instead of being confined to a crafting instance with strangers. Now the effort they put forth in making items for their guilds as well as providing status to the guild can be appreciated and enjoyed by them.The players that enjoy doing adventure writs can quickly go from place to place almost directly in most cases because of the rewards for the effort they have put into the guild.The rewards serve a purpose. I can't see how anyone could suggest that the rewards be diminished simply to allow them to pretend that the people running to the ports, standing by the banks and brokers or doing repairs in down are providing them with immersion. Even if they do, what right does anyone have to expect that my player should be forced to provide their immersion.

Megavolt

02-23-2009, 11:12 PM

Reading all this it a failure in 4 parts,1) Guildhalls made the humdrum parts of the game where nobody really wants to be bothered anyway (tradeskills, broker, raid formation) and took them to plae where you won't be bothered with "hey man, nice gear" I don't see this really as a problem and don't see this as downgrading the social aspect at all, mainly because, like I said, most don't want to be bothered while doing these things)2) TSO instances made it to where groups don't run into each other. Persistant zones, even though they have their disadvantages (Hey man, this is OUR camp, go away!) also have their advantages as social interactions when running across friends or decent people that don't wanna infrenge on your camps.3)TSO didn't have have a true centralized place to start quests from or access those quest areas. Instead of making a portal or transport system from the landing zone with a majority of the quests started in that area they spread everything out to the winds with no real way to get there. This spread everyone out through the game with exception of the runner to get the daily double quest, who just runs there and back to the group.4)This kinda works with the 3 but TSO only had limited lower level content. If they had included scaling of all zones with timers set every 10 levels ( and repeatable quests tied to those timers)would have made a reason for higher levels and lower levels intermingling if only for mentoring reasons. The AA xp grind is absolutely horrible and if I could have made it better by mentoring for instances I surely would have done it.Basically SOE could have made TSO a more socially intermingling expansion but completely missed the ball, making it go the other way completely, I personally loved the Planes of Power expansion of EQ1 because of the social interaction that it created in Plane of Knowledge and Tranquility. With the instances that TSO introduced they could have made a central area where all characters intermingled no matter what starting city you had. The guildhalls aren't really to blame, the new content spread throughout the world without a new central area for people to loiter while lfg or whatever is to blame. They could have taken the idea of eq1's PoP(the centralization of the game and transport system) and made playable content shared between the levels, but decided to go the complete opposite way. Actually putting the Guildhalls in a central location with a call to that location probably would have increased the feeling of the game being "alive", though a zone with everyone entering and exiting guildhalls probably would have made lag 10 times as worse than moors.

guillero

02-24-2009, 06:16 AM

<cite>Brickfist wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reading all this it a failure in 4 parts,1) Guildhalls made the humdrum parts of the game where nobody really wants to be bothered anyway (tradeskills, broker, raid formation) and took them to plae where you won't be bothered with "hey man, nice gear" I don't see this really as a problem and don't see this as downgrading the social aspect at all, mainly because, like I said, most don't want to be bothered while doing these things)2) TSO instances made it to where groups don't run into each other. Persistant zones, even though they have their disadvantages (Hey man, this is OUR camp, go away!) also have their advantages as social interactions when running across friends or decent people that don't wanna infrenge on your camps.3)TSO didn't have have a true centralized place to start quests from or access those quest areas. Instead of making a portal or transport system from the landing zone with a majority of the quests started in that area they spread everything out to the winds with no real way to get there. This spread everyone out through the game with exception of the runner to get the daily double quest, who just runs there and back to the group.4)This kinda works with the 3 but TSO only had limited lower level content. If they had included scaling of all zones with timers set every 10 levels ( and repeatable quests tied to those timers)would have made a reason for higher levels and lower levels intermingling if only for mentoring reasons. The AA xp grind is absolutely horrible and if I could have made it better by mentoring for instances I surely would have done it.Basically SOE could have made TSO a more socially intermingling expansion but completely missed the ball, making it go the other way completely, I personally loved the Planes of Power expansion of EQ1 because of the social interaction that it created in Plane of Knowledge and Tranquility. With the instances that TSO introduced they could have made a central area where all characters intermingled no matter what starting city you had. The guildhalls aren't really to blame, the new content spread throughout the world without a new central area for people to loiter while lfg or whatever is to blame. They could have taken the idea of eq1's PoP(the centralization of the game and transport system) and made playable content shared between the levels, but decided to go the complete opposite way. Actually putting the Guildhalls in a central location with a call to that location probably would have increased the feeling of the game being "alive", though a zone with everyone entering and exiting guildhalls probably would have made lag 10 times as worse than moors.</blockquote>You made some very valid points that might have added to the issue at hand.And again to others. For crying out loud. I never said I hated Guild Halls. Tjeez! Learn to read for a change.I had been away for almost 3 months, because I was disgrunteled (and basically still am) because of the stunt The Smed pulled on us with this stupid cash shop.But my gf just liked EverQuest 2 too much and missed it, so we gave it another go last week.We were just shocked to see how desolated the cities, hubs and lot of zones had become! That is all.It just put us off the game almost instantly. Even a diehard fan as my gf.As it felt like we returned to a completely different game. A game that had died.That's why I created this topic. To vent our dissapointment in how everything turned out to be since TSO and the introduction of Guild Halls. And with that I did not said it was the fault of the Guild Halls itself, but the various ammenities that pulled almost the entire population away from the cities and hubs and most zones.That you Ammenity lovers have a very vocal presence here on these forums. I already knew that, from back then during the Guild Hall discussions.But that doesn't mean you people represent the entire playerbase and give you the right to twist all my posts and try to set me away as some intense Guild Hall hater with a grudge. It's just childish and immature. And above all very aggrevating!That you don't give a toss about the overal server population or cities or basically everything else beside your guild. Fine! I get that and respect that.But then at least try to respect our point of view as well. As there are plenty of people who do care about the overal server community. The cities. Player presence. And everything else that goes on beyond a guild.We might not have such a vocal presence as you are here on the forums. But we are still here and have just as much right to express ourselves!It's basically the prime reason me and many others don't even bother and hardly post here anymore.Have a nice day.

Thunderthyze

02-24-2009, 08:08 AM

Eugam

02-24-2009, 08:25 AM

Not true. Not long ago SOE tried to pull people out of the instances into the cities by adding crafter facilities into public building. Players just didnt accept it. Personally i liked my willow woods crafter dungeon too. But i agree, the world is empty now. EQ2 cureently is a very, very commercial product atm.Vanguard... one of the most underdeveloped games ever. SOE, i think you do not realize your chances there. The game lacks only one thing and that is developer manhours. The basic design is excellent.

Eugam

02-24-2009, 08:30 AM

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>It seems that the introduction of Guild Halls and it's negative effect is clearly starting to show.All cities and other hubs that were once busy with people roaming around, eventho it was just standing around the broker... are now mere ghost towns.</blockquote>Guild Halls were SOE's method of reducing lag in QH and EFP. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />When I (finally) got my mythical there really was nowhere to go and stand and be uber because, as you say the streetcorner in QH now only sees the passing of tumbleweed blowing in the wind. Standing in your guild hall, in amongst all the other players with THEIR mythicals, wasn't quite the same. However, at least I didn't have Nathan Ironforge continually asking me whether or not I'd seen a gnoll before.Please SOE, make him attackable. THAT would bring the people back to QH I'm telling you!</blockquote>You are one of those [Removed for Content] showing off in QH ? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I bet 10pp that 50-80% of the current players never have seen a gnoll. And 60-90% never have seen Nathan <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Thunderthyze

02-24-2009, 08:47 AM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guild Halls were SOE's method of reducing lag in QH and EFP. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />When I (finally) got my mythical there really was nowhere to go and stand and be uber because, as you say the streetcorner in QH now only sees the passing of tumbleweed blowing in the wind. Standing in your guild hall, in amongst all the other players with THEIR mythicals, wasn't quite the same. However, at least I didn't have Nathan Ironforge continually asking me whether or not I'd seen a gnoll before.Please SOE, make him attackable. THAT would bring the people back to QH I'm telling you!</blockquote>You are one of those [Removed for Content] showing off in QH ? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I bet 10pp that 50-80% of the current players never have seen a gnoll. And 60-90% never have seen Nathan <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>If by "showing off" you mean standing around looking all uber and impressing the ladies then guilty as charged <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Totally agreee that most people will have never come across gnolls these days until they stumble upon the "chemically enhanced" specimens in RoK.Can't agree with your comment on Nathan Ironforge however, the kid is a legend.....and not in a good way either.

Eugam

02-24-2009, 09:13 AM

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guild Halls were SOE's method of reducing lag in QH and EFP. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />When I (finally) got my mythical there really was nowhere to go and stand and be uber because, as you say the streetcorner in QH now only sees the passing of tumbleweed blowing in the wind. Standing in your guild hall, in amongst all the other players with THEIR mythicals, wasn't quite the same. However, at least I didn't have Nathan Ironforge continually asking me whether or not I'd seen a gnoll before.Please SOE, make him attackable. THAT would bring the people back to QH I'm telling you!</blockquote>You are one of those [Removed for Content] showing off in QH ? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I bet 10pp that 50-80% of the current players never have seen a gnoll. And 60-90% never have seen Nathan <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>If by "showing off" you mean standing around looking all uber and impressing the ladies then guilty as charged <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Totally agreee that most people will have never come across gnolls these days until they stumble upon the "chemically enhanced" specimens in RoK.Can't agree with your comment on Nathan Ironforge however, the kid is a legend.....and not in a good way either.</blockquote>Ah i see <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Personally i tend to understatement <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The only thing i am really proud of is my "of the shard" title and my godking weapon. I ll wear it once the weapon appearance slots are in game.I agree that Nathan probably is raid target No#1. Even above Naggy. But who goes to QH nowadays ? All new players start in TD and prolly never have the chance to get annoyed <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Yanikin

02-24-2009, 09:24 AM

Ok, someone mentioned my "other" game, so I have to tell them they are wrong. In LOTRO, they have guild halls and houses. Nobody uses them for anything but storage.As someone else mentioned, a hub is what was needed. With the latest expansion in LOTRO we have such a hub, and everyone goes to the lag fest. You have crafting, AH (Auction House), and bank all right next to each other. Along with a bard (used to change class specs), highest level of consumables (not crafted), and map point.If you want to tell how an MMO is doing, look at the chat channels. In EQ2, it is 1-9. If you think having great lag will tell you if you are in a populated MMO, than I personaly disagree. I have NEVER used random people I ran into to add to friends list. I HAVE used groups I joined when they were good, raids I joined that had good players, chat channels that turned into tells that turned into one of the first two mentioned. Personaly I don't see what is wrong with the guild halls. Maybe I'm just a N00b.My 2cp.

Bran

02-24-2009, 04:44 PM

Darnit, the OP didn't respond to my post so I'm going to say more words. Now OP, try to ignore the posts that you hate and engage me in a conversation!!Ok, I'm not going to copy and paste. Your original point was that the cities are barren of people and that you are unhappy with that.How many people would you like to see in each Qeynos zone? I like the fact that there are not more than 10-15 people in each zone. The North Qeynos zone has quite a few people running from that big crafter organization's building to the bank, to the bells, then zoning into South Qeynos for the Broker and the Banker. I probably see at least 5-10 people each trip I make from my nearby apartment to those very same locations. What interactions would you like to have with these people? I know that other people have posted that they do not stop to chat with the strangers they see while in cities but I'm thinking that maybe you and your girlfriend do.I do too. I often throw out comments, questions and compliments to the people I see. I like to do a little role playing at times but the game just doesn't have the "tools" I would like to have. I.E. A bar, furniture that actually works.

guillero

02-24-2009, 05:07 PM

<cite>Makr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Darnit, the OP didn't respond to my post so I'm going to say more words. Now OP, try to ignore the posts that you hate and engage me in a conversation!!Ok, I'm not going to copy and paste. Your original point was that the cities are barren of people and that you are unhappy with that.How many people would you like to see in each Qeynos zone? I like the fact that there are not more than 10-15 people in each zone. The North Qeynos zone has quite a few people running from that big crafter organization's building to the bank, to the bells, then zoning into South Qeynos for the Broker and the Banker. I probably see at least 5-10 people each trip I make from my nearby apartment to those very same locations. What interactions would you like to have with these people? I know that other people have posted that they do not stop to chat with the strangers they see while in cities but I'm thinking that maybe you and your girlfriend do.I do too. I often throw out comments, questions and compliments to the people I see. I like to do a little role playing at times but the game just doesn't have the "tools" I would like to have. I.E. A bar, furniture that actually works.</blockquote>It's not about how many people you want to see in each zone.It's about seeing player activity overall across the servers and zones. And this activity has taken a serious hit, since people are now mostly hidden within their guild halls, because of all the ammenities they basically got everything they need in there.Hence my last guild got so effecient with the harvesting bot scheduling, that we had the chests crammed with resources from all Tiers in no time.So most people in the guild didn't even bother to go out and harvest anymore.Both causing a serious dent in overal zone population and the Broker itself. Just an example btw.And saying the chats 1-9 is all they need? Well yeah... I guess you mean the level 1-9 global chat one. Sure that one somewhat active sometimes.But most people who are in guilds have most the global channels dissabled, so the higher level global channels are just deserted. That's what you get when you split up the playerbase even more across so many global channels per Tier.So again, I wasn't saying that the ammenities that came with the Guild Halls are the sole reason to this. They were just the final nail in the coffin to a much bigger problem.The cities divided in so many tiny zones isn't ofcourse really helping either.But people have given great feedback and great ideas over the years about how to improve the cities and such....but they were all completely ignored by SOE and nothing has ever been done with it.Cheers

Cele

02-24-2009, 05:23 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Makr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite>It's not about how many people you want to see in each zone.It's about seeing player activity overall across the servers and zones. And this activity has taken a serious hit, since people are now mostly hidden within their guild halls, because of all the ammenities they basically got everything they need in there.Hence my last guild got so effecient with the harvesting bot scheduling, that we had the chests crammed with resources from all Tiers in no time.So most people in the guild didn't even bother to go out and harvest anymore.Both causing a serious dent in overal zone population and the Broker itself. Just an example btw.And saying the chats 1-9 is all they need? Well yeah... I guess you mean the level 1-9 global chat one. Sure that one somewhat active sometimes.But most people who are in guilds have most the global channels dissabled, so the higher level global channels are just deserted. That's what you get when you split up the playerbase even more across so many global channels per Tier.So again, I wasn't saying that the ammenities that came with the Guild Halls are the sole reason to this. They were just the final nail in the coffin to a much bigger problem.The cities divided in so many tiny zones isn't ofcourse really helping either.But people have given great feedback and great ideas over the years about how to improve the cities and such....but they were all completely ignored by SOE and nothing has ever been done with it.Cheers</blockquote>I really dont know where you are getting your information. How did you conclude that folks dont harvest anymore or guilds dont use global channels?Our guild harvest box is stuffed to the gills and I still spend a couple hours a day harvesting, in just about all tiers. I Check the broker, see what is selling for the most coin, and go harvest.As for using global channels, my guild still uses tons of global channels. 1-9 to goof off, crafting for missions, appropriate tiers to look for groups, etc. Level 70-79 is crazy active on my server. Sometimes more than 1-9.As for player activity, I see toons all the time while harvesting, sometimes even bump into them when trying to grab a node. dark light woods had so many folks in it the other day people were grouping to complete solo content.Did you forget SOE has done as you requested and tried to get more players out in the cities? remember when they moved crafting out of the dungeons and put in in buildings close to brokers? I meet people in NQ all the time to do commission work rather than zoning into my guild hall for it.Zoning is a real pain in this game and one way devs have acknowledged it is to give us halls with travel amenity options. It makes much more sense to call to my hall then to everfrost than to call to qeynos, go to QH, then TS then EF. That doesnt affect community for me in the least.

Zarador

02-24-2009, 05:35 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not about how many people you want to see in each zone.It's about seeing player activity overall across the servers and zones. And this activity has taken a serious hit, since people are now mostly hidden within their guild halls, because of all the ammenities they basically got everything they need in there.So the zones are empty as a result of? Sorry I'm not following that one clearly, do you mean the towns again? I'm fairly confident that the larger guilds with all the amenities are out there doing stuff together as a guild, as they always have. Judging by the expense of the T-3 halls I'm betting their out of the hall quite often taking on profitable encounters. Hence my last guild got so effecient with the harvesting bot scheduling, that we had the chests crammed with resources from all Tiers in no time.So most people in the guild didn't even bother to go out and harvest anymore.Both causing a serious dent in overal zone population and the Broker itself. Just an example btw.So they rather hire a Harvest Bot to do the harvesting for the guild rather than all going out and harvesting all over the place. Who would of imagined that. Given a chance, a Guild would prefer to spend their time doing fun things together while keeping their crafters well supplied and content. What dent did that cause in the Broker? Perhaps what you meant to say is their no longer buying up raw materials at high prices rather than harvesting all that on their own? As far as a dent in the population in the zones because of harvesting bots, I would venture to say that there would be more people out doing fun stuff rather than harvesting, so perhaps more groups as a result. And saying the chats 1-9 is all they need? Well yeah... I guess you mean the level 1-9 global chat one. Sure that one somewhat active sometimes.But most people who are in guilds have most the global channels dissabled, so the higher level global channels are just deserted. That's what you get when you split up the playerbase even more across so many global channels per Tier.1-9 has been "global chat" for as long as I can remember. You can communicate with everyone of every level so it works. Also, for as long as I can remember Guilds often turned off "General Chat" during raids and events to avoid communication problems and distractions. Guild Chat has been around for as long as I can remember as well (going back to the early days of Everquest Live). If your part of a large guild, usually most your chat is there since that's your social network.So again, I wasn't saying that the ammenities that came with the Guild Halls are the sole reason to this. They were just the final nail in the coffin to a much bigger problem.You have yet to explain what the "bigger problem" is. People like to craft and adventure for the most part. Anything that improves that ability to do so more efficently will sway people in that direction. For many people the fun is being at a crafting station, harvesting, questing, grouping or raiding in general. Most of this expansion was dedicated to instancing and people seem to be enjoying that quite a bit. It's not standing next to a broker or banker and pretending to be immersed. The cities divided in so many tiny zones isn't ofcourse really helping either.But people have given great feedback and great ideas over the years about how to improve the cities and such....but they were all completely ignored by SOE and nothing has ever been done with it.The games have changed greatly over the years. Gone are the days when everything felt like a huge struggle of you against the world. People bonded more back then and I guess to some extent, the roleplay of socialization was more pronounced. Good or bad, that's what happened. When the Nexus was released in EQ Live people hung out there instead of the towns. As soon as Guild Halls were released with portals, they flocked there. In the early days you spent more time in town because it took longer and was more difficult to get there. I don't have 3 hours for a grind, lets hang out in the EC Tunnel...and so it goes...Cheers</blockquote>

ke'la

02-24-2009, 06:03 PM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>That sense of pride should have been enough. Don't you agree? That was always the initial thought behind Guild Halls.Who's initial thought was that? Yours? SOE's? Cause I don't recall reading anything from the latter stating that Guild Halls will exclusively be a source of pride and offer no other benefit.Accually spyder the offical position on Guild Halls prior to implimentation was, we won't add them until we can come up with uses that are more then just a larger house/musium that noone vists for any reason other then pride. So accually from SoE's point of view, the initial thought was the exsact oposite of the poster you quoted.But reading the discussion topics about guild halls back then it was shockingly clear in there that most people didn't give a darn about pride.You're talking old school now. You can't get back that mentality that we players had back in the 90's when MMO's were new and raw. Heck, with that type of thinking.. toss FFA PvP on all the servers again while you're at it.Main problem being that it took SOE so frigging long to get them in, that most people had 5-room houses by now cranked with stuff. So Guild Halls being just a meeting place with expanded and specialised decoration functionality and extra big storage space (read Pride) wasn't enough anymore!Again.. had nothing to do with SOE. They choose to listen to what the Players wanted. Your peers. You keep blaming SOE for giving the majority of the player base what they were asking for. What were they to do? "No! You'll stay in the cities and immerse yourself, and like it!" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />Accually, again from day one the Idea behind Guild Halls(and I am talking day one as in launch day) would be that they would have more functionality then just pride, and a musium of ocoplishments, and that they would offer something more then what you could get otherwise.They just wanted basically the whole game in miniform crammed into it, so they could hide in it and had no need to go anywhere else. And that they also could isnta port to everywhere they wanted to.Players in EQ2 have always wanted this. Look back through the posts in tradeskill forum. You'll find many requests from players for broker, menders, bankers and fuel sales in their homes.Unfortunately for the majority of guilds that isn't on their agenda and they only care about all the ammenities. Several shocking reactions in this topic clearly show that.Why is it shocking? Gaming has changed a lot over the past 15 years. People have always asked for things to be easier or more convenient. And, others have dug their heels in the ground, in an attempt to preserve the old school feeling of risk and reward. The latter group is vastly out numbered these days. Its a sad fact that you're going to have to accept eventually.------Just take a look at other MMO's in wich their Main Cities are crowded with activity day in day out.Why has it never really been the same case with Quenos and Freeport?I know it was that case years ago. I know that all the dividing in zones and loading screens wasn't really helping.But the Guild Halls and how they have been implemented last year have basically been the final nail on the coffin for both Quenos and Freeport and several other hubs.Not to mention that a lot of zones have now trully died as well since then!This is about growth. Not neglect. The land has quintupled in size since back then. People spread out. Back in the days that you miss so much, there were only two starting cities.Funny thing is back in the days befor DoF was launched people lemented the near emptyness of the cities, the truth is the design of EQ2 was never conducive to bussling cities, al'a WoW or LotRO. Because what forced interaction there was, took place in INN rooms, generally with one of the two people AFK. This was back in the days that you had to be in your Inn Room Logged in to sale on the broker.Bottom line.. what would you suggest? Pull all the ammenities out of the guild halls? Do you truly believe that people will be happy to socialize with you after losing hundreds in invested plat just because a handful of people were feeling a little lonely in Cities?I suppose they could launch a "Classic Server" for those like yourself who miss the "Good Old Days". But, I suspect you'd be much lonlier there than you are currently.</blockquote></blockquote>

Baccalarium

02-24-2009, 09:12 PM

I might see an argument that some zones are not well populated leaving new folks with less interaction.I've never been much to use level chats. If I have a question about something in a particular zone, I'd rather use the zone chat than a chat that spans the entire server. I may /who my zone looking for someone of my level and desired class to join up with for duo or trio. I was on an alt lost in Freeport (I only have one evil alt, and its not from Freeport) looking for something. Though there were a few people in zone none would respond to the my /ooc. I think there have been times in the past when I have requested or offered advice in city /ooc before. So perhaps the lack of a response is a symptom of this problem. I don't blame guild halls for this though. I saw the same lacking in eve where everyone was off in their guild channels and useful responses were few and far between. It made me quit that game before really starting, so I suppose the similar situation could make folks quit eq2 before getting high enough to see the real community in channels.What might help this:1) Make the city's single large zones like Moors and Kylong Plains, so that /who and /ooc show a larger population. There is no longer the need to cut these zones into such small fragments. Unfortunatley I suspect this would be a major endeavor development cost wise.2) Alternatively, make /ooc and /who treat the subzones of the cities like a single zone without redesigning the city itself.3) Allow those in guild halls to elect to remain a member of their home city zone for /who and /ooc purposes.This would make the cities still be a place where new folks would have a decent chance at spotting players and asking questions. Don't expect the new player to be able to hunt down all the alternate channels right off the bat, but /who and /ooc they probably catch on to fairly quick.Now if you just want to see hustle and bustle. I'm really not with you on that. Hustle and Bustle just equal lag.

Yanikin

02-25-2009, 03:46 AM

<cite>Baccalarium wrote:</cite><blockquote>I might see an argument that some zones are not well populated leaving new folks with less interaction.I've never been much to use level chats. If I have a question about something in a particular zone, I'd rather use the zone chat than a chat that spans the entire server. I may /who my zone looking for someone of my level and desired class to join up with for duo or trio. I was on an alt lost in Freeport (I only have one evil alt, and its not from Freeport) looking for something. Though there were a few people in zone none would respond to the my /ooc. I think there have been times in the past when I have requested or offered advice in city /ooc before. So perhaps the lack of a response is a symptom of this problem. I don't blame guild halls for this though. I saw the same lacking in eve where everyone was off in their guild channels and useful responses were few and far between. It made me quit that game before really starting, so I suppose the similar situation could make folks quit eq2 before getting high enough to see the real community in channels.What might help this:1) Make the city's single large zones like Moors and Kylong Plains, so that /who and /ooc show a larger population. There is no longer the need to cut these zones into such small fragments. Unfortunatley I suspect this would be a major endeavor development cost wise.I don't see this as working very well. My other game all you get in the "hub" is lag fest and they had to seperate out a small zone for the crafting, the broker, and the bank.2) Alternatively, make /ooc and /who treat the subzones of the cities like a single zone without redesigning the city itself.I think that this would work much better to acomplish the same goal without introducing lag.3) Allow those in guild halls to elect to remain a member of their home city zone for /who and /ooc purposes.I would bet that some guilds would not join, but you might find a lot would. I get the impresion that guilds who all ready have there hall open to all would glady join and probly talk in those channels. This might help aleviate some of the problem that is being talked about here, without introducing lag.This would make the cities still be a place where new folks would have a decent chance at spotting players and asking questions. Don't expect the new player to be able to hunt down all the alternate channels right off the bat, but /who and /ooc they probably catch on to fairly quick.Now if you just want to see hustle and bustle. I'm really not with you on that. Hustle and Bustle just equal lag. QFT</blockquote> Edit: Color was to dark.

Calris

02-25-2009, 04:23 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've mentioned this "issue" myself before, but frankly, nobody cared then, & even fewer will care now.</blockquote>Because it's a non-issue. I've not really noticed any serious impact, though. The crowd around the broker in the Neriak crafting area is just as crowded as always in AB.

guillero

02-25-2009, 04:52 AM

<cite>Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've mentioned this "issue" myself before, but frankly, nobody cared then, & even fewer will care now.</blockquote>Because it's a non-issue. I've not really noticed any serious impact, though. The crowd around the broker in the Neriak crafting area is just as crowded as always in AB.</blockquote>Still. On several servers at least (incl. mine). The first thing new players see are barren zones, empty cities and nearly dead chat channels. (except the lvl1-9 channel and some occasional chatter in lvl10-19 one).Again, to answer some posters above me. I never said that Guild Halls were the prime reason for all this.When I did a /who (with using filters ofcourse) last week(end) on several servers (I have a char on) during prime time there are only about 100-200 people average online in the level1-79 bracket.So there is a lot more going on that is causing all this (like maybe there are too many servers with the current population.... altho this is a very very sensitive subject).People can twist and turn it all they want, but new players are getting instantly put off by dead zones. Nothing is more disencouraging then that. Hence, even for a returning player.

erin

02-25-2009, 09:46 AM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's how I see it:<ul><li>If cities seem "empty" or "dead" it's because many would rather be in their Guild Halls rather than in a public place. They have a choice, they made their choice, their where they wish to be with whoever it is they wish to be with.</li><li>If your not in a Guild Hall, then you made your choice. You rather be around those players that rather use the public amenities. </li></ul>The argument is rediculous at best. </blockquote>The argument isn't ridiculous. It just shows what has become of large part of the EQ2 playerbase.They have become a bunch of lazy players that want everything handed to them on a silver platter in one convenient place.Over and over and over again in this thread people have explained that they like GuildHalls. Yet you arrogantly choose to speak for all of us. Guildhalls. Amenities. Yup, we love them. Makes our guilds more vibrant, more cohesive. Over and over and over again people have told you that cities are irrelevant. But no, you continue to hammer the point that cities must be filled with players for the game to be alive. Appearently for you guys traveling a couple hundred feet within a city between a banker and a broker or a crafting hall was already too much.Hence, traveling and exploring itself seems to have gotten too much for the lot of you. Seeing that the insta travel portal ammenity being used the most. It's just sickening.To you its sickening, to the rest of us its guild cohesion. And easier travel means adventuring with our guildmates more, travelling less. I'm sorry you can't travel back in time to the beginning of MMOs, because apparently that's what you are looking for in a game. This ain't it.And again. It clearly shows you all have no counter arguments whatsoever, other then burn me to the stake for someone with an extreme hate against Guild Halls.More prove you just don't even bother to read my posts! As I never said I hated Guild Halls itself. But whatever!But you hate everything that guild halls provide. Hating ammenities is essentially the same as hating guild halls. You know, if every person in a thread seems to misunderstand my point, I don't consider them incapable of reading, I think "hmmm wonder if I'm not getting my point across because of how I'm saying it?"As you lot seem to keep saying that Guild Halls with all it's ammenities have been a great addition?No they haven't! They are implemented as a replacement of something that should have been fixed and optimised years ago!! Namely the Cities itself!Yes they have been a great addition. I'm sorry you don't like amenities. Frankly I don't care. You come across as very disgruntled, as you put it in another post. Not my problem. For most people, guildhalls and guild amenities have been a huge boon. They have added better guild cohesion. Guilds hang out together more, guilds do things together more, they get to know each other more. Its fantastic. And it helps HUGELY with the quality of the game for people who are willing to join guilds. Non guilded folks still have everything they had before, except a bunch of players NOT talking to them while wandering through the cities. No loss. Guild halls aren't a replacement for anything, they are something we were promised for years and SOE finally delivered. Fixing/optimizing cities wasn't their big concern, other than maybe fixing lag in places like QH. Giving us the guildhalls they had promised was a big concern. And they finally did it.If SOE had ever bothered in fixing and optimising the Cities (what so many have been graving for over the years and ofcourse being completely ignored by the almighty SOE!!), then Guild Halls could have been implemented in a way that it truly was an addition to the game! Without all public functionalities being slapped in as ammenities.Guild halls are an addition to the game. And who are these people who were "graving" (I assume you mean craving?) the optimization of cities (other than fixing lag)??? Almost everyone I know was begging for guild halls.A Guild Hall shouldn't be a replacement for a City Hub and it's public functions! A Guild Hall should be about guild pride. A Hall in wich guilds display their trophies and all their incredible stuff they gathered during their adventuring years. Like it once was in Star Wars Galaxies.Says you. Who are you to decide what a guild hall should be? THIS ISN'T SWG!!!I remember back then, that we visited Guild Halls to gaze at what people had gathered on trophies and items and how they decorated the place, not to hide in. As the guilds capable of creating fully fledged player cities, with all functionalities in SWG were countable on one hand for each server. However in EQ2 right now I have lost count in how many guilds have a fully fledged Tier3 guild hall.Nobody is hiding. They are playing. Interacting. Bonding with their guilds. Good lord, what do you think goes on in guildhalls (oh look, a bed, I think I'll hide under there). You have a terrible perspective that guilded people somehow want to get away from the unwashed masses. We just want to interact with our guildmates, our "online family", the people we have CHOSEN to be around the most. We also went to sertain cities, because the Top crafters were known and we visited their merchants.The cities like Theed, Naboo and Mos Eisley, Tatooine were always packed and dense with players. At least it always was on the Eclipse server in my time back in 2003 - 2004.But with the launch of the NGE it seems since then, that SOE have lost track and the feel of what an MMORPG really was about.But not only SOE. As some of the reactions in this topic also show that lot of players seem to have lost that sense as well.Again, your opinion of what an MMO should be about. Not what most players wanted. So you want to force us to your model of what an MMO should be. Not what apparently the majority of the playerbase wants. Nice.And you know what I find most shocking in most reactions of you people, is that it seems that you lot needed Guild Halls with all public functions slapped into it, to meet your guild members! How sad is that?Because do you lot even read what you are writing in here? You basically saying that your guild was nothing more then a bunch of non-social people all going their own way in the game and never really meet up. Never organised things to do together.It basically says more about your own guild and it's members, then about how the game was before Guild Halls and it's ammeneties!I think I'll rest my case here.You have no case. You don't like how the game is. But most players seem to like it. You either send some /feedback, and/or find a game that fits your style. But the fact is, most MMOs don't fit what you want. That era is over. Maybe it'll come again someday, but its not today. You either live with how MMOs are today, or you don't play.Saying "I don't hate guildhalls, I hate the amenities that allow players to hide in guildhalls", and then chastising the posters for saying you hate guildhalls is kind of funny. What are guildhalls without the amenities? Just big houses. Which SOE specifically said they didn't want.I love guildhalls. Even tiny guilds can afford a T1 with a few amenities with just a little work. Guildhalls are hubs of activities, they are a wonderful building block for building a good cohesive guild. They were implemented beautifully.</blockquote>

guillero

02-25-2009, 10:12 AM

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Over and over and over again in this thread people have explained that they like GuildHalls. Yet you arrogantly choose to speak for all of us. </blockquote></blockquote>HA! How the irony!Should we read back in through this topic? Or how about the old discussion topics about Guild Halls... or just about every other discussion topic you small vocal group of peeps don't like?If there are some very vocal people on these forums that act like they speak on behalf of the entire playerbase then it's you guys/girls!So give me a break. As I have never acted nor stated anywhere in any of my posts that I speak on behalf of the entire playerbase! In fact. If you read the last line in my very first OP: Another great idea that has gone too far? I personally think so.Several people in this topic have replied to state otherwise. Yet you all conveniently ignore them and pin yourselfs on ME to make it look like I am all alone in this and that the entire playerbase doesn't give a rats rear end about cities and the server community.So look in your own mirror, before you making these accusations wich are full of irony!

erin

02-25-2009, 10:14 AM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Over and over and over again in this thread people have explained that they like GuildHalls. Yet you arrogantly choose to speak for all of us. </blockquote></blockquote>HA! How the irony!Should we read back in through this topic? Or how about the old discussion topics about Guild Halls... or just about every other discussion topic you small vocal group of peeps don't like?If there are some very vocal people on these forums that act like they speak on behalf of the entire playerbase then it's you guys/girls!So give me a break. As I have never acted nor stated anywhere in any of my posts that I speak on behalf of the entire playerbase! In fact. If you read my very first OP, then you clearly find the word Personal back.Several people in this topic have replied to state otherwise. Yet you all conveniently ignore them and pin yourselfs on ME to make it look like I am all alone in this and that the entire playerbase doesn't give a rats rear end about cities and the server community.So look in your own mirror, before you making these accusations wich are full of irony!</blockquote>Several times in this thread you chose to speak for the playerbase. Several times in this thread you chose to speak for all new players. If you can't see that you are doing it, that's ok, but maybe you should look in that mirror a bit before you pass it to me?

guillero

02-25-2009, 10:21 AM

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Over and over and over again in this thread people have explained that they like GuildHalls. Yet you arrogantly choose to speak for all of us. </blockquote></blockquote>HA! How the irony!Should we read back in through this topic? Or how about the old discussion topics about Guild Halls... or just about every other discussion topic you small vocal group of peeps don't like?If there are some very vocal people on these forums that act like they speak on behalf of the entire playerbase then it's you guys/girls!So give me a break. As I have never acted nor stated anywhere in any of my posts that I speak on behalf of the entire playerbase! In fact. If you read my very first OP, then you clearly find the word Personal back.Several people in this topic have replied to state otherwise. Yet you all conveniently ignore them and pin yourselfs on ME to make it look like I am all alone in this and that the entire playerbase doesn't give a rats rear end about cities and the server community.So look in your own mirror, before you making these accusations wich are full of irony!</blockquote>Several times in this thread you chose to speak for the playerbase. Several times in this thread you chose to speak for all new players. If you can't see that you are doing it, that's ok, but maybe you should look in that mirror a bit before you pass it to me?</blockquote>No I cannot see it. I used new players in one of my last posts yes. But nowhere in such a context you try to put it in.Good try tho. But whatever. You people seem to run out of stuff to attack me on. And frankly I am getting tired to write another single word in this topic.I am done. And I frankly don't care either anymore. Both me and my gf have just decided to just cancel again and move on and turning our back to this game for good now!Guess another victory for you peeps isn't. 2 more people with a different opinion then yours chased away! Congrats.Cheers!

erin

02-25-2009, 10:22 AM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Over and over and over again in this thread people have explained that they like GuildHalls. Yet you arrogantly choose to speak for all of us. </blockquote></blockquote>HA! How the irony!Should we read back in through this topic? Or how about the old discussion topics about Guild Halls... or just about every other discussion topic you small vocal group of peeps don't like?If there are some very vocal people on these forums that act like they speak on behalf of the entire playerbase then it's you guys/girls!So give me a break. As I have never acted nor stated anywhere in any of my posts that I speak on behalf of the entire playerbase! In fact. If you read my very first OP, then you clearly find the word Personal back.Several people in this topic have replied to state otherwise. Yet you all conveniently ignore them and pin yourselfs on ME to make it look like I am all alone in this and that the entire playerbase doesn't give a rats rear end about cities and the server community.So look in your own mirror, before you making these accusations wich are full of irony!</blockquote>Several times in this thread you chose to speak for the playerbase. Several times in this thread you chose to speak for all new players. If you can't see that you are doing it, that's ok, but maybe you should look in that mirror a bit before you pass it to me?</blockquote>No I cannot see it. I used new players in one of my last posts yes. But nowhere in such a context you try to put it in.Good try tho. But whatever. You people seem to run out of stuff to attack me on. And frankly I am getting tired to write another single word in this topic.I am done. And I frankly don't care either anymore. Both me and my gf have just desided to just cancel again and move on and turning our back to this game for good!Guess another victory for you peeps isn't. 2 more people with a different opinion then yours chased away! Congrats.Cheers!</blockquote>Can I have your stuff? Or do you plan to just come back in 2 months (again)? Because there isn't a better game out there right now, and you know it.

DukeTyri

02-25-2009, 10:41 AM

I am a player returning from a couple of years ago, with a new character.After running through Kelethin and no seeing anyone, I changed my location to Qeynos. After being in Qeynos for a couple of days I was on the verge of thinking the game was dying, until I saw this post.I am sure your guild halls are very fine places, and I hope they are bringing yours guild together in one location, but for a new or returning player, seeing the main towns empty does not help in getting me to stay.When i am in the town, at the broker, or even running around doing starter quests it is nice to see people, get guild invites and even inspect armour on higher players. At the moment I do not even know where the guild halls are.I did have 1-9 chat turned on, but it was so full of spam that I ended up turning it off. It got to the point where it reminded me of general chat in World of Warcraft*.*Note: Yes I have played World of Warcraft, so feel free to discount my post on that basis. However, it's worth noting that Blizzard refused to put auction houses and the like in the new areas to force people back to the city from time to time.

Cele

02-25-2009, 11:05 AM

<cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am a player returning from a couple of years ago, with a new character.After running through Kelethin and no seeing anyone, I changed my location to Qeynos. After being in Qeynos for a couple of days I was on the verge of thinking the game was dying, until I saw this post.I am sure your guild halls are very fine places, and I hope they are bringing yours guild together in one location, but for a new or returning player, seeing the main towns empty does not help in getting me to stay.When i am in the town, at the broker, or even running around doing starter quests it is nice to see people, get guild invites and even inspect armour on higher players. At the moment I do not even know where the guild halls are.I did have 1-9 chat turned on, but it was so full of spam that I ended up turning it off. It got to the point where it reminded me of general chat in World of Warcraft*.*Note: Yes I have played World of Warcraft, so feel free to discount my post on that basis. However, it's worth noting that Blizzard refused to put auction houses and the like in the new areas to force people back to the city from time to time.</blockquote>Try Gorwyn ( I am sure I spelled that wrong) or Neriak. The player starting areas flow better in these two cities and there are lots and lots of new characters there all the time.

Zorastiz

02-25-2009, 11:28 AM

I like our guild hall BUT, the friends I am guilded with I originally met in Freeport and Qeynos as we made idle chatter while banking, crafting, brokering etc.Cities in a game should be as they are in RL, they should have people in them, empty cities suck period. If they were all as empty when I started playing EQ2 as they are now I would have quit in a weeks time, it just detracts from the immersion somehow.And no I'm not talking about standing around a vendor not speaking to a mass of people, I made lasting friendships in the now barren cities and I hate to see that missing from the game.

Kendricke

02-25-2009, 12:38 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>People can twist and turn it all they want, but new players are getting instantly put off by dead zones. Nothing is more disencouraging then that. Hence, even for a returning player.</blockquote>Is that the problem then?Get those new players in a guild then. I guarantee you that nothing is more fascinating, exciting, or awe inspiring for new players than a big, giant, fancy, tier 3 guild hall.

Kendricke

02-25-2009, 12:44 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>But people have given great feedback and great ideas over the years about how to improve the cities and such....but they were all completely ignored by SOE and nothing has ever been done with it.</blockquote>Just because SOE doesn't implement every idea that comes along doesn't mean they're ignoring the ideas. I could make a "great" suggestion that Freeport should be destroyed in a cataclysmic civil war - buildings could be toppled, the Green Hoods could set off magical charges that take out the Temple of War, the Avatar of Valor could walk the docks of East Freeport, the Overlord could be taken into custody, and fae could be dancing in the streets. SOE would probably do nothing with such an idea. I guess that means they're ignoring "great ideas" regarding changes to Freeport, right?Speaking of "great ideas", anyone ever recall what happened to those years and years of suggestions from players regarding some sort of new hall concept for guilds? I guess SOE just ignored the players once again.

Kendricke

02-25-2009, 12:47 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cities in a game should be as they are in RL, they should have people in them, empty cities suck period. If they were all as empty when I started playing EQ2 as they are now I would have quit in a weeks time, it just detracts from the immersion somehow.</blockquote>I can't stand the fact that in Rivet City in Fallout 3, I'm the only player. Even though the city itself is stuffed to the gills with interacting NPCs, I can't help but be pulled completely out of my immersion by the fact that I'm the only actual "person" there. What a horrible game. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

DukeTyri

02-25-2009, 12:49 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>People can twist and turn it all they want, but new players are getting instantly put off by dead zones. Nothing is more disencouraging then that. Hence, even for a returning player.</blockquote>Is that the problem then?Get those new players in a guild then. I guarantee you that nothing is more fascinating, exciting, or awe inspiring for new players than a big, giant, fancy, tier 3 guild hall. </blockquote>

DukeTyri

02-25-2009, 12:55 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>People can twist and turn it all they want, but new players are getting instantly put off by dead zones. Nothing is more disencouraging then that. Hence, even for a returning player.</blockquote>Is that the problem then?Get those new players in a guild then. I guarantee you that nothing is more fascinating, exciting, or awe inspiring for new players than a big, giant, fancy, tier 3 guild hall. </blockquote>I am a returning / new player and I have no wish to just join the first guild I see in the guild lists and I very much doubt many would. What you are saying is, unless I join a guild, then the game will not feel like an MMO to me?If a game looks dead then new players will not play it for very long and, given that you will lose players over time, that road only leads one place.Dark Age of Camelot made the mistake of putting in a /level option, that started all existing players at a higher level, freezing out new players from the start, this to me seems little different.I have no doubt the guild halls are a fantastic addition, especially for those that have waited a long time for them, but if players are only moving between their city hall and a raid zone, then they might as well be playing on a LAN.

Zorastiz

02-25-2009, 01:13 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cities in a game should be as they are in RL, they should have people in them, empty cities suck period. If they were all as empty when I started playing EQ2 as they are now I would have quit in a weeks time, it just detracts from the immersion somehow.</blockquote>I can't stand the fact that in Rivet City in Fallout 3, I'm the only player. Even though the city itself is stuffed to the gills with interacting NPCs, I can't help but be pulled completely out of my immersion by the fact that I'm the only actual "person" there. What a horrible game. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Kendricke as per normal you are arrogant and condescending, we don't all think like you thank the gods!

Zarador

02-25-2009, 05:37 PM

Seriously, the players that have those huge halls with all the perks did not get them by standing next to the bank or a broker. It takes a lot of status and coin just to get a T-1 Hall. It takes even more status and coin to add the amenities and maintain it. Where do people think those players are? Standing in the Guild Hall twenty four seven avoiding the general population? Think that's how they got to level 80 and earned all that status and coin?Their out there hunting, raiding, grouping, questing and crafting together. That's what many guilds do. That's why they prefer to have their own private social infrastructure in addition to the game world with outside players to have fun with.If you want to "inspect" their gear, go to where they hunt and do so. Go out there and make groups with players, that's where the real interaction is.I grow tired of hearing about the negative impact this has on the new or returning player. If you really think the immersion and action is in the local towns, then your clueless about what people do to have fun in these games. This reminds me of some picnics and outings I have attended. The people sitting around the picnic table all day gossiping always seem to have a mediocre time while others will tell you what a blast they had. The "immersion" is there, you just have to participate in it to take it all in.

Kendricke

02-25-2009, 07:14 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cities in a game should be as they are in RL, they should have people in them, empty cities suck period. If they were all as empty when I started playing EQ2 as they are now I would have quit in a weeks time, it just detracts from the immersion somehow.</blockquote>I can't stand the fact that in Rivet City in Fallout 3, I'm the only player. Even though the city itself is stuffed to the gills with interacting NPCs, I can't help but be pulled completely out of my immersion by the fact that I'm the only actual "person" there. What a horrible game. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Kendricke as per normal you are arrogant and condescending, we don't all think like you thank the gods!</blockquote>Though I don't deny that I'm arrogant and often condescending, I'm not sure how I exhibited either in my response here (or even how it's relevant to what's being said). If anything, I was being ironic. My example was used to show that even in some well crafted single player games, there are no other players to interact with...and yet some of the most immersive cities exist in these games. Fallout 3 is one of the highest rated games in history (Gamespy gave it a 100/100 score), and Rivet City is a massive, sprawling, multiple zoned city filled to the gills with NPC's who interact with each other completely independent of any player input. The point is simple: you don't need other players to create the immersive feel of a large, sprawling city. If you do want to see where players are, just visit the chat channels. Every player on your server has access to the 1-9 level chat. Even then, guilds have always been the true social hubs on servers. Even in games where there are no formal guilding mechanics, players form guilds or clans. Truly, go start up Dawn of War II and tell me where in the options menu is the "form guild/clan" option? There is none, and yet there are hundreds of Dawn of War II guilds already. Try the same thing in Team Fortress 2 or Call of Duty 4 and you'll find that there are also no clan creation or organizational mechanics - and yet again, hundreds of clans. "Community" isn't an artificial stimulus created by being in proximity to other players you're not actually interacting with. Community is a bond, however tenuous, between people. Being near someone who is AFK is not a bond. Interacting with someone in a level chat channel is a bond. Guilding with like minded players is a bond. Community doesn't end because players move from zone X to zone Y. Every game goes through this. You think players in old Everquest are still hanging out at the North Freeport bank? You think they're all down in Kaladim? No, as the game evolved, so did the social hubs. It didn't mean the community disappeared. It didn't even mean the community went into "hiding". The community is where it's always been - in the chats. It's in group chats. It's in the guild chats. It's in serverwide chats. The people aren't in their avatars. The people are in the channels.

ke'la

02-25-2009, 07:26 PM

<cite>Celena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am a player returning from a couple of years ago, with a new character.After running through Kelethin and no seeing anyone, I changed my location to Qeynos. After being in Qeynos for a couple of days I was on the verge of thinking the game was dying, until I saw this post.I am sure your guild halls are very fine places, and I hope they are bringing yours guild together in one location, but for a new or returning player, seeing the main towns empty does not help in getting me to stay.When i am in the town, at the broker, or even running around doing starter quests it is nice to see people, get guild invites and even inspect armour on higher players. At the moment I do not even know where the guild halls are.I did have 1-9 chat turned on, but it was so full of spam that I ended up turning it off. It got to the point where it reminded me of general chat in World of Warcraft*.*Note: Yes I have played World of Warcraft, so feel free to discount my post on that basis. However, it's worth noting that Blizzard refused to put auction houses and the like in the new areas to force people back to the city from time to time.</blockquote>Try Gorwyn ( I am sure I spelled that wrong) or Neriak. The player starting areas flow better in these two cities and there are lots and lots of new characters there all the time.</blockquote>Yep, Kelethin Emptied out about the time Neriak went in, even though it is the newest "Good" zone it is too remote, and has the least progression of all the Newer cities. It being empty has little to do with Guild Halls, and everything to do with poor access to other zones, outside of Faedwar, and it's older design.

ke'la

02-25-2009, 07:31 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>The community is where it's always been - in the chats. It's in group chats. It's in the guild chats. It's in serverwide chats. The people aren't in their avatars. The people are in the channels.</blockquote>QFE

Bran

02-25-2009, 08:12 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>No I cannot see it. I used new players in one of my last posts yes. But nowhere in such a context you try to put it in.Good try tho. But whatever. You people seem to run out of stuff to attack me on. And frankly I am getting tired to write another single word in this topic.I am done. And I frankly don't care either anymore. Both me and my gf have just decided to just cancel again and move on and turning our back to this game for good now!Guess another victory for you peeps isn't. 2 more people with a different opinion then yours chased away! Congrats.Cheers!</blockquote>In a tribute to Guillenor, I searched his posts to see what he was about during his time with the game. It's actually amazing that people forget that their posts indicate what sort of person they are. Anyway, as Taps sounds across the forum for the loss of another player, let's have a moment of silence and remember the really great quotable lines that he supplied us:"Especially when the majority is against it. People can twist and turn it all they want, but new players are getting instantly put off by dead zones. Nothing is more disencouraging then that. Hence, even for a returning player You guild whoring people are not the only one. YOU DO NOT represent the ENTIRE playerbase! There are people out here that still see value in the Server Community and the Cities itself. Are we allowed to ask for something and discuss it?? Without you idiots constantly ranting and derailing these topics, just because it DOESN'T interest you at all??What people seem so blind of and unable to see, is what it has done to the game as whole.- Traveling / exploring -> dead!- Cities / hubs -> dead!- Server community -> dead!- The majority of Zones itself -> dead!How about removing this complete idiotic feature as whole and let people actually play the game as it used to be?Just my 2 cents. We all know SOE Customer Service is a laugh!! ....and so we can go on...and go on....and go on!!......And in the end it comes to one thing: You all keep playing and SOE keeps collecting money from your subscriptions SO PLEASE STOP flooding this forum with only complaints SOE has failed again...and will keep failing again in the future! Its just the nature of this company (when I say SWG you know what I mean)! Well people complain too much! It's not only this board you know....just check the other ones and you know what I mean!"

DukeTyri

02-25-2009, 08:39 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to "inspect" their gear, go to where they hunt and do so. Go out there and make groups with players, that's where the real interaction is.I grow tired of hearing about the negative impact this has on the new or returning player. If you really think the immersion and action is in the local towns, then your clueless about what people do to have fun in these games. </blockquote>So, you are suggesting that a level 30+ character just pop into a level 80 raid zone. Well, it's interesting at least to hear that you don't care about the new or returning player, I am always interested in hearing people's views and at least we know where we stand.It may however come to pass though, that as the player base grows thin and the new players are met with a blank stare rather than a welcome greeting, that the game revenue drops to the point where SOE isn't as keen to invest in further development. All games end somewhere, but it might sometimes be an idea to look to the bigger picture and try not to hasten it.

Zarador

02-25-2009, 09:22 PM

<cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to "inspect" their gear, go to where they hunt and do so. Go out there and make groups with players, that's where the real interaction is.I grow tired of hearing about the negative impact this has on the new or returning player. If you really think the immersion and action is in the local towns, then your clueless about what people do to have fun in these games. </blockquote>So, you are suggesting that a level 30+ character just pop into a level 80 raid zone. Well, it's interesting at least to hear that you don't care about the new or returning player, I am always interested in hearing people's views and at least we know where we stand.It may however come to pass though, that as the player base grows thin and the new players are met with a blank stare rather than a welcome greeting, that the game revenue drops to the point where SOE isn't as keen to invest in further development. All games end somewhere, but it might sometimes be an idea to look to the bigger picture and try not to hasten it.</blockquote>As a "new" or "returning" player, you should be able to enjoy your time in the game inspecting players at the broker or the bank, that's certainly worth $15.00 a month. That's where we stand, the game will die because people have less players standing at the broker and more players out there doing what it is that they enjoy doing. Does that really make any sense?If you returned to the game, then that means you played the game before and should be anxious to PLAY again, not stand around town pretending to socialize with people AFK at the broker. If your new to the game, then you are in the 1-9 channel where most the chatter is. Since the majority of players are chatting there, I would think that should be far more welcomed than standing next to the broker or banker, again with AFK players. Unless of course your the type of player that really enjoys looking up the hind end of a mount.lets put the argument smack dab into reality. Some of the player base feels that other players should be forced to use the facilities in town, instead of using the facilities that they worked hard to achieve, just so they can feel like they are near strangers. They should loose the benefits of being part of a social network that groups together, raids together, crafts together and built a guild together, just to be avatars at a strangers disposal.Never mind that there are guilds on our server (a server that so many proclaim to be "Dead") advertising for all kinds of members all the time. Heck, they even invite people to visit their halls and explain their benefits. I rather go it alone, so long as you can stand there and make me feel welcome. Your not asking for SoE to change the game mechanics, your asking them to change how the players choose to congregate.I guess I'm just weird. I go to a Bank in real life to do my banking so I can enjoy using my money elesewhere. I go to the store to look around and see what they have, then make my purchases, take them with me and enjoy them. I don't feel cheated if there is no line at the bank or the register. I take the train to get to a destination, not to stand with the crowd. Come to think of it, many people telecomute, do online banking and purchase items via the Net just to do it faster without the crowds. You know, spend less time doing what they have to do, so they can spend more time doing what they want to do. Go figure.

DukeTyri

02-25-2009, 09:39 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to "inspect" their gear, go to where they hunt and do so. Go out there and make groups with players, that's where the real interaction is.I grow tired of hearing about the negative impact this has on the new or returning player. If you really think the immersion and action is in the local towns, then your clueless about what people do to have fun in these games. </blockquote>So, you are suggesting that a level 30+ character just pop into a level 80 raid zone. Well, it's interesting at least to hear that you don't care about the new or returning player, I am always interested in hearing people's views and at least we know where we stand.It may however come to pass though, that as the player base grows thin and the new players are met with a blank stare rather than a welcome greeting, that the game revenue drops to the point where SOE isn't as keen to invest in further development. All games end somewhere, but it might sometimes be an idea to look to the bigger picture and try not to hasten it.</blockquote>As a "new" or "returning" player, you should be able to enjoy your time in the game inspecting players at the broker or the bank, that's certainly worth $15.00 a month. That's where we stand, the game will die because people have less players standing at the broker and more players out there doing what it is that they enjoy doing. Does that really make any sense?If you returned to the game, then that means you played the game before and should be anxious to PLAY again, not stand around town pretending to socialize with people AFK at the broker. If your new to the game, then you are in the 1-9 channel where most the chatter is. Since the majority of players are chatting there, I would think that should be far more welcomed than standing next to the broker or banker, again with AFK players. Unless of course your the type of player that really enjoys looking up the hind end of a mount.lets put the argument smack dab into reality. Some of the player base feels that other players should be forced to use the facilities in town, instead of using the facilities that they worked hard to achieve, just so they can feel like they are near strangers. They should loose the benefits of being part of a social network that groups together, raids together, crafts together and built a guild together, just to be avatars at a strangers disposal.Never mind that there are guilds on our server (a server that so many proclaim to be "Dead") advertising for all kinds of members all the time. Heck, they even invite people to visit their halls and explain their benefits. I rather go it alone, so long as you can stand there and make me feel welcome. Your not asking for SoE to change the game mechanics, your asking them to change how the players choose to congregate.I guess I'm just weird. I go to a Bank in real life to do my banking so I can enjoy using my money elesewhere. I go to the store to look around and see what they have, then make my purchases, take them with me and enjoy them. I don't feel cheated if there is no line at the bank or the register. I take the train to get to a destination, not to stand with the crowd. Come to think of it, many people telecomute, do online banking and purchase items via the Net just to do it faster without the crowds. You know, spend less time doing what they have to do, so they can spend more time doing what they want to do. Go figure.</blockquote>You really don't get the point do you, either that or you are just too full of yourself to admit it.It's not about inspecting people at the broker, it's about seeing other people, about having quality player interaction. I do not call listening to constant spam in level 1-9 chat, quality player interaction.Nevermind, I am sure there are others out there that think the same way I do, but let's agree to disagree. You go your way on you high horse, on your crusade to shout new players down and I will continue trying to work out if it's worth my partner and I re-subscribing for more than a month on a server which 'feels' more empty than a single player MMO.As for what I was asking for? I was asking for exactly nothing, I was giving my input on how an actual returning player feels, but you can now add to that 'not very welcome on the forum', but since this is the internet that's never a shock.

Siphar

02-25-2009, 10:02 PM

There is but one shining beacon of light in the midst of this guild hall issue.. your server!Come experience PvP EQ2 where good vs. exile vs. evil really comes alive!We have GH as well but we all meet up and kill each other in random locations, usually KP docks over and over and have this so called interaction!I played on Eq2 since release since I used to Play Eq1. When Pvp was released I tried it and have been hooked since. Everything is more of a challenge! and a lot more interesting!Try it on Nagafen today! See you out there !

Zarador

02-26-2009, 01:17 AM

<cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>You really don't get the point do you, either that or you are just too full of yourself to admit it.It's not about inspecting people at the broker, it's about seeing other people, about having quality player interaction. I do not call listening to constant spam in level 1-9 chat, quality player interaction.Nevermind, I am sure there are others out there that think the same way I do, but let's agree to disagree. You go your way on you high horse, on your crusade to shout new players down and I will continue trying to work out if it's worth my partner and I re-subscribing for more than a month on a server which 'feels' more empty than a single player MMO.As for what I was asking for? I was asking for exactly nothing, I was giving my input on how an actual returning player feels, but you can now add to that 'not very welcome on the forum', but since this is the internet that's never a shock.</blockquote>First off, seriously, welcome back.With that said, respectfully, I think your missing my point. Yes, I understand that there are less people in the actual towns now. Anyone reading chat however can see that there are Guilds welcoming players to join them. Now no one says that everyone needs to be a part of a Guild, but you could explore a Guild hall, even just out of curiosity.Now, if a player, new or returning explored one, they would come to realize that many players choose that style of play and that's why they are in Guild Halls. I'm not trying to build this picture of the "Guilded Elite"; heck, our hall is pretty much setup for crafting with no portals or menders. (T-1 Freeport).What I have been trying to express is that the pride and benefits of having a Hall compel the guilded player to use them. It's probebly a bad analogy, but most our characters that we duo with are Wizards, Warlocks and Druids. Now since our Druids can get us pretty close to anywhere (along with the Hammer to JW); we don't often use the boats or harbors. Does that make us unsociable? No, it simply means we have an ability (convienence) that allows us to avoid the docks and harbors.Now if someone is really interested in the game, their going to scope things out. If they do, their going to realize why the population in the towns have dwindled. Their either going to want the perks and social atmosphere of being in a guild or not. That's a choice they will have to make along the line. The outcome of which will determine how much bustling activity they see in their town or hall.I doubt that there would be much that they could do to bring back the interest in the towns. The Halls however sparked even more interest in guilds where people actually do meet and do things socially together for the most part. I'm not trying to act elite when I say that it's better to spark interest in existing players that are enjoying their gaming experience than it is to try and motivate people to hang out in a town.Guilded players for years had to roleplay that a designated house that they had limited use of was a "5-6 Room Guild Hall". A house just the same as any player in the game had with no perks, no amenities other than the minor things that Guild Status bought. There was even a huge argument over the plans to use a standard house plan for the T-1 hall; so much so that they redesigned it.The game revolves around rewards and advancement. People need to simply accept that Guilds have their own path of advancement and you can choose that path or accept the one that you choose that suits you best. The players made the towns a "Ghost Town" by their own choice, plain and simple. You can argue that it's right or wrong, paints a poor picture and lacks immersion, but that was the choice the players that are in the halls made.

Kendricke

02-26-2009, 03:26 AM

<cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not about inspecting people at the broker, it's about seeing other people, about having quality player interaction.</blockquote>Please describe "quality player interaction" in the context of Qeynos Harbor.

Spritelady

02-26-2009, 05:29 AM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not about inspecting people at the broker, it's about seeing other people, about having quality player interaction.</blockquote>Please describe "quality player interaction" in the context of Qeynos Harbor.</blockquote>I think I described that already for Kithicor! AFK people at the broker with large mount hiney in your face, Annoying port classes who open portals on top of the broker, people running around in circles while waiting for a raid, people dry humping you when YOU go AFK, people pulling all the guards and lagging everyone else around just to show off how uber they are that thay can kill 15 grey NPCs, people AFK on the corner to show off their gear etc and so on.AWESOME player interaction! Its like watching paint dry while stabbing yourself in the eye with a pencil repeatedly!

guillero

02-26-2009, 06:05 AM

I can't help to place one final reaction in here.It's nice to see you trolls turned your crusade on the next poor soul that doesn't agree with you.You guys are really a piece of work aren't you.Well I hope you keep enjoying an ever dwindling EQ2 playerbase and subscription numbers.Ta Ta.

Turb

02-26-2009, 08:55 AM

I think the Guild Halls are great, no question. They improve cohesion *within the guild* at the expense of within the server as a whole. Easier crafting, much easier travel in particular. I think there is hopefully more to come, like the original guild-only broker idea (please!).If you want people in the towns, there needs to be an incentive to go there. So for example reduce broker fees in the cities to 5% or even consider removing the fees. Add something to give some temporary buff ( Blessing of <City> ) that has some useful effect. Put an NPC there that offers and rewards the 2-sharder quest. Or add an NPC that offers city-specific shard rewards. Whatever it is, if there's value in visiting, people will go there. Just don't make it essential to go there <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Malaqai

02-26-2009, 09:46 AM

<cite>Spritelady wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I think I described that already for Kithicor! AFK people at the broker with large mount hiney in your face, Annoying port classes who open portals on top of the broker, people running around in circles while waiting for a raid, people dry humping you when YOU go AFK, people pulling all the guards and lagging everyone else around just to show off how uber they are that thay can kill 15 grey NPCs, people AFK on the corner to show off their gear etc and so on.AWESOME player interaction! Its like watching paint dry while stabbing yourself in the eye with a pencil repeatedly!</blockquote>OMG you're so funny!----And dead wrong.It's not about WHAT was happening, but that it WAS happening.The server seemed alive to a new player... He logged in, saw people jumping around, random duels, etc etc.Now a new player logs in a sees... F****g nothing. A ghost town, like people said.Personally, I don't care.I play for raiding, but at this point more than ever, it feels like a "My Guild vs Raid Mobs" game rather than a real MMO with travelling and interacting. It feels sequestered and isolated. You have your guild, but that's it.SOE has the worst marketing strategy for EQ; and it's been rubbish forever.Ghost town welcoming potential new players aren't gonna help.Again, I don't care... I play with my guild against badly designed TSO raid mobs and don't associate with new players anyway... Just saying... They took a decent idea and went too far.

Zorastiz

02-26-2009, 09:54 AM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cities in a game should be as they are in RL, they should have people in them, empty cities suck period. If they were all as empty when I started playing EQ2 as they are now I would have quit in a weeks time, it just detracts from the immersion somehow.</blockquote>I can't stand the fact that in Rivet City in Fallout 3, I'm the only player. Even though the city itself is stuffed to the gills with interacting NPCs, I can't help but be pulled completely out of my immersion by the fact that I'm the only actual "person" there. What a horrible game. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Kendricke as per normal you are arrogant and condescending, we don't all think like you thank the gods!</blockquote>Though I don't deny that I'm arrogant and often condescending, I'm not sure how I exhibited either in my response here (or even how it's relevant to what's being said). If anything, I was being ironic. My example was used to show that even in some well crafted single player games, there are no other players to interact with...and yet some of the most immersive cities exist in these games. Fallout 3 is one of the highest rated games in history (Gamespy gave it a 100/100 score), and Rivet City is a massive, sprawling, multiple zoned city filled to the gills with NPC's who interact with each other completely independent of any player input. The point is simple: you don't need other players to create the immersive feel of a large, sprawling city. If you do want to see where players are, just visit the chat channels. Every player on your server has access to the 1-9 level chat. Even then, guilds have always been the true social hubs on servers. Even in games where there are no formal guilding mechanics, players form guilds or clans. Truly, go start up Dawn of War II and tell me where in the options menu is the "form guild/clan" option? There is none, and yet there are hundreds of Dawn of War II guilds already. Try the same thing in Team Fortress 2 or Call of Duty 4 and you'll find that there are also no clan creation or organizational mechanics - and yet again, hundreds of clans. "Community" isn't an artificial stimulus created by being in proximity to other players you're not actually interacting with. Community is a bond, however tenuous, between people. Being near someone who is AFK is not a bond. Interacting with someone in a level chat channel is a bond. Guilding with like minded players is a bond. Community doesn't end because players move from zone X to zone Y. Every game goes through this. You think players in old Everquest are still hanging out at the North Freeport bank? You think they're all down in Kaladim? No, as the game evolved, so did the social hubs. It didn't mean the community disappeared. It didn't even mean the community went into "hiding". The community is where it's always been - in the chats. It's in group chats. It's in the guild chats. It's in serverwide chats. The people aren't in their avatars. The people are in the channels.</blockquote>All of this is YOUR opinion not fact, to the uneducated it may seem as though what you say is gospel dude but let's face it we all have our own opinions that's life, that means neither of our opinions are RIGHT in everyone's eyes.I enjoy seeing people in the game in a variety of places and in a variety of activities be it groupong or crafting or banking, my guild has a T3 hall, I spend as little time there as possible because I like to be out and about meeting people.

Zhadowsee

02-26-2009, 11:48 AM

When do Gorowyn, Kelethin and Neriak get T2 and T3 halls?

Kendricke

02-26-2009, 11:53 AM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I hope you keep enjoying an ever dwindling EQ2 playerbase and subscription numbers.</blockquote>What's the obsession with subscription numbers? This week, my guild had record numbers of members online at the same time. For a guild that maintains between 65 - 80 active accounts at a time on average, we generally see between 20-30 members online on a given night. The past week, we've been seeing 40 or more members online at a time. Guild chat is positively bustling with 40 members online. What's more, these are complete strangers to me standing around in Qeynos Harbor trying to block the broker. These are people I consider friends for the most part. We share good news and bad together. We group together nightly. We raid together. We know each others' goals - in-game and sometimes out. So, while you decide to show us what's up with your parting shot regarding subscription numbers, I keep watching the only numbers which really matter to me going up. You think it affects me personally if you choose to stop logging in? You think you're the first person to use the "Everquest II is dying" line? Age of Conan is down to less than 100,000 subscriptions. NC Soft just shut down Tabula Rasa. Perpetual studios went out of business before they could get Gods and Heroes out of beta. Rumours out of Cheyenne Mountain studios indicate that it's been 105 days since the developers for Stargate Worlds have seen a paycheck. Meanwhile, old Everquest is passing the 10 year mark as we speak. Not bad for a game that everyone said was "dead" years ago, eh?So, you think I'm worried about Everquest II shutting down anytime soon? Frankly, I'm more worried about a new MMO failing than I am about SOE closing down the servers on a game.

Zarador

02-26-2009, 12:47 PM

<cite>Malaqai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spritelady wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I think I described that already for Kithicor! AFK people at the broker with large mount hiney in your face, Annoying port classes who open portals on top of the broker, people running around in circles while waiting for a raid, people dry humping you when YOU go AFK, people pulling all the guards and lagging everyone else around just to show off how uber they are that thay can kill 15 grey NPCs, people AFK on the corner to show off their gear etc and so on.AWESOME player interaction! Its like watching paint dry while stabbing yourself in the eye with a pencil repeatedly!</blockquote>OMG you're so funny!----And dead wrong.It's not about WHAT was happening, but that it WAS happening.The server seemed alive to a new player... He logged in, saw people jumping around, random duels, etc etc.Now a new player logs in a sees... F****g nothing. A ghost town, like people said.Personally, I don't care.I play for raiding, but at this point more than ever, it feels like a "My Guild vs Raid Mobs" game rather than a real MMO with travelling and interacting. It feels sequestered and isolated. You have your guild, but that's it.SOE has the worst marketing strategy for EQ; and it's been rubbish forever.Ghost town welcoming potential new players aren't gonna help.Again, I don't care... I play with my guild against badly designed TSO raid mobs and don't associate with new players anyway... Just saying... They took a decent idea and went too far.</blockquote>Yet, respectfully, look what happened?When, apparently by the results, when people were given a choice, they left that behind. Yes, I agree, it might seem empty to a new player, but the more "serious" players got a nice reward for the effort they put in to build a guild of like minded players.As far as marketing, I may not agree with some of their ideas, but bolstering the community of many veteran players through Guild Halls seems like a pretty good idea.I got flamed before for my statements about new players, but I will say it again. If you log into the game and actually PLAY the game then you can get over the "ghost towns" because you will realize that being in town is just a small part of the game. Your in a Raiding Guild, obviously they did not achieve that ability by standing around a broker or banker in town.As a gamer, I attempt to "welcome" new players by helping them out, grouping with them and answering questions when they ask without sarcasim. I feel that's the extent of my "obligation" to my fellow gamers. I don't feel that I "cheated" anyone out of a great immersion experience by using my Guild Hall features. Frankly, I welcome the change of not standing by a Broker trying to get around the other characters while turning down my sound so as not to hear the character next to me jump up and down 10,000 times. Judging by all the comments about the "Ghost Towns" I'm not the only one.SUGGESTION:I agree that a new player might perceive it as a ghost town. With that said, maybe SoE should setup a "newbie" instanced quest where a player enters a T1, T2 and T3 Guild Hall populated by NPC's. They learn about Guilds and the Amenities. Maybe let them even try out the Status Mounts while in the T-3 Instance of the Hall. Training dummies would also help them catch up on those skills and understand the value of them. As a reward, they get to use some of those features in the halls for a certain amount of time or levels, plus AA and Exp like any other quest. Maybe make them pay some Status for the use of certain amenities while introducing them to the "Writ System". In fact, you could even have a writ giver in the zone that gives them "mini writs" to obtain the points needed to try some of the amenities out.At the end of the quest line their asked if their interested in joining a Guild and at the same time Guilds looking for new low level players maybe receive a in game mail with the players name for a contact. I think that may help the guilds while making a new player feel more welcomed. This would introduce them to the concept of Guilds and Guild Halls while helping them decide if being in a Guild is right for them. At the very least, they would somewhat understand why the towns became barren to some extent. If the problem is that they are perceiving the world as empty based on the player population in cities, then the solution would seem to be demonstrating why people left the city in the first place.

Mikai

02-26-2009, 02:27 PM

I read a few posts of this here and there, but I hardly have time to read each and every one. But, I'd like to add my 2c nonetheless.As the leader of my guild, the people in this game I care the most about are my guildies. This isn't any sort of exclusivity, but these are the people who've stuck by me and the guild I created through thick and thin. We've got a bond that I don't find anywhere else. Every evening, I log in and get "Hiyas Bosslady" and "Hey Kai" and some other affectionate greetings that I'm sure the filter here won't let me post. I log in and watch people new and old in the guild grouping and doing things together. I see others drop what they're doing to help the newbie in TD who's dying horribly to the typical Mok Rent Gankfest. And every night, I play this game with and for these people. They are what makes this game worth playing despite it's many shortcomings and bugs.While I still have some interaction with others outside my guild, it's not nearly to the extent that I have with my guildies. In fact, there are people who hang out in those public zones I would much sooner never look at their faces again. There are those I simply don't care what they have to say or what they do. And before guild halls, never did I do anything in any city zone with others. Never inspected others, never just struck up conversation (aside from the occasional grats at the crafting tables). I brokered, I banked, and I moved on.Since the implementation of the Guild Halls, however, I actually know what my guildies look like. That was one thing that I didn't like too much was that someone could be invited to the guild hall and we would have no clue what their toon looks like. A small thing, to be sure, but it mattered to me. Now, we complement (or bash) our guildies appearance gear (have you ever seen a dwarf in a pink robe??). We have snowball fights by the banker. The coercers in our guild thouroughly enjoy using thier fun spells on others. All of these things would never have been seen aside from the occasional time one might run into another guildie by happenstance. Even then, they'd probably /wave, say something in guild chat, and move on.Guild Halls bring a tremendous amount of unity to a guild. It gives us tools to bond even closer. We have a headquarters. I'll take that over the occasional, unlikely, and often irrelevant interaction with others (who are most likely afk, I might add). Given the choice between a closer bond with my guildies or with random strangers, my choice is pretty clear.That might have been more than 2c worth, but w/e. lol

Zorastiz

02-26-2009, 02:30 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I hope you keep enjoying an ever dwindling EQ2 playerbase and subscription numbers.</blockquote>What's the obsession with subscription numbers? </blockquote>I think all games are taking a subscription hit, maybe even cartoon central (WoW).About the only NEW game I am interested in is the Star Wars MMO, but that is sooooooo far out, who knows what will happen.Some servers are pretty dead dude you have to admit that, AB is not but sometimes it seems that way when you don't have juvenille chat (lvl 1 to 9) turned on which I don't.

Kendricke

02-26-2009, 02:39 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some servers are pretty dead dude you have to admit that...</blockquote>No, I don't. I've played Matrix Online, Planetside, Auto Assault, Age of Conan, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and Tabula Rasa. By comparison, there isn't a single "dead" server in Everquest II. Even compared to some servers in Warhammer Online (pre-server transfers), Everquest II is outright thriving. The fact remains that too many players are obsessed with whether or not Everquest II has a "large" population. Compared to World of Warcraft, virtually EVERY game is tiny and dying. Compared against itself or against other MMO's, Everquest II is a roaring success in a burning sea of failures. It's all relative. Based purely on the populations you personally might observe in Qeynos Harbor or East Freeport, you may feel you have all the data needed to conclude that Everquest II is "failing"...and yet, 40 of my guildmates logged in last night. At one point, all of us were in the guildhall at the same time.

infy567

02-26-2009, 03:11 PM

<cite>Guillenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote> dry humping you when YOU go AFK</blockquote>Whats wrong with getting dry humped when you're not around?

Zorastiz

02-26-2009, 03:35 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some servers are pretty dead dude you have to admit that...</blockquote>No, I don't. I've played Matrix Online, Planetside, Auto Assault, Age of Conan, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and Tabula Rasa. By comparison, there isn't a single "dead" server in Everquest II. Even compared to some servers in Warhammer Online (pre-server transfers), Everquest II is outright thriving. The fact remains that too many players are obsessed with whether or not Everquest II has a "large" population. Compared to World of Warcraft, virtually EVERY game is tiny and dying. Compared against itself or against other MMO's, Everquest II is a roaring success in a burning sea of failures. It's all relative. Based purely on the populations you personally might observe in Qeynos Harbor or East Freeport, you may feel you have all the data needed to conclude that Everquest II is "failing"...and yet, 40 of my guildmates logged in last night. At one point, all of us were in the guildhall at the same time. </blockquote>Sorry dude but I'm not a harbor hanger arounder and yes some servers in EQ2 are virtually empty, again you are being arrogant and condescending which is what I have come to expect from you.Additionally I have lost track of how many times over the last couple of years you have said MY GUILD HAD A RECORD NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON LAST NIGHT.EQ2 as much as I love it is not a roaring success, it merely serves to entertain a niche in the market as do all other MMO's, I happen to be a fan of Norrath from my EQ1 days.You claim to know all my friend, we should just all do what Kendricke says and everything will be fine./Head in sand as per normal.See ya have fun dude that's all I'm trying to do.

Zarador

02-26-2009, 04:00 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2 as much as I love it is not a roaring success, it merely serves to entertain a niche in the market as do all other MMO's, I happen to be a fan of Norrath from my EQ1 days.</blockquote>QFE!You hit it spot on though. It serves the players that enjoy the game. As simple as it sounds, that's all it has to do. Maybe with the right changes and focus it could be the next [insert game]; but is that the game that the current player base would enjoy?Not to derail the topic, but so many posts explain how if we add this, take away that, consolidate the classes and add that certain class that shall not be named, everything would be just perfect. If we can just force convince players to do what we think they should be doing, then the game will be healthy. Of course, forcing convincing them through game mechanics simply means they have no choice in the matter.This topic has annoyed me not because I don't care what the new players or returning players feel. It annoys me because if the zones are as empty as some claim, it simply means the players were given a choice, and they made it. Now some argue that's not healthy for the game. I have to disagree because obviously, so many players are utilizing the halls so it has to be a benefit overall. Players become more interested in advancing their guilds and bringing in new members to support the halls. That means more meaningful interaction between players even if it reduces the immersion of the cities themselves. There is always the exception, but I would say that the player who enjoys the content outside of the city is more apt to stick around than the player just looking for a cool spot to pass the time.

Coho1

02-26-2009, 04:03 PM

Just add some dungeons for all levels to the cities..then folks will move thru.Catacombs, burial caves, whatever

Kendricke

02-26-2009, 04:21 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>This topic has annoyed me not because I don't care what the new players or returning players feel. It annoys me because if the zones are as empty as some claim, it simply means the players were given a choice, and they made it. </blockquote>Spot on. If the only reason people were using city zones was due to brokers, bankers, and menders...then I submit that the cities weren't "alive" at all. If players truly want to meet up to "interact" in the cities, there is no mechanic preventing such a thing from occuring. If players come to the game and feel the game is dead due to that lack of casual contact between avatars, then I further submit that the playerbase will somehow find a way to survive without such players. An "arrogant and condescending" attitude? Perhaps...but at the same time, it's honestly, truthfully, and sincerely not likely to affect my nightly log-in's anyway. I'm not logging in to interact with random strangers in zones I feel obligated or forced to visit before I can begin my night's playsession. I log in to interact with my guildmates and friends, by and large.

thajo

02-26-2009, 04:28 PM

I think its more realistic that the toons have a place that bears more 'belonging'. Like hanging inside a castle with their guild. Not just standing in the middle of a city like a homeless.

Arslan2000

02-26-2009, 05:07 PM

With all this complaint about the guild halls ruiing the game, (Not everyone thinks that clearly, I would like to point out a few facts.1: Players congegrate to the new shiny. This is true in every MMO out there. Sure, there were still people going to the broker in Qeynos/Freeport, but truly how many of them wanted to be there?2: I don't know the subscription numbers. This is something I have wondered about though. How many new players are we getting? With a game that limits the character slots drastically, there are fewer alts being made. If you go to EQ1 or WoW, or most other MMO's, you can always see a new player popping in from another server. This is not as common in EQ2. 3: Related to #2, with fewer alts being made, there are alot more high level characters. How many of them are doing the new quests and TSO crafting instances? The population is focused in a specific point. Without the new low level players coming, and there was no new low level content to reroll, or play in, they are going to the new shiny.A game will get stagnant and boring without new content, and new low levels to start in. Guild halls provide some place for the guild to congregate, and make their own. This encourages new players to look into them for either making their own guilds, or joining the existing guilds. Players have also been asking for it for a long time.Do I think the city looks alive when the jerk of an ogre with a dire bear and maxed size is standing in front of the broker/banker while going afk? No. Nor do I interact with said ogre. I ignore them. Do I interact with the person standing next to me in the game? No. I interact with the chat channels. I interact with those I am familiar with. Most players are like that I think. I do think that a whole bunch of people sitting there afk makes the city look dead and laggy.

Zorastiz

02-26-2009, 05:27 PM

I assume that when you all go to the nearest city or town in RL that you ignore everyone and do not interact with anyone?Guild Halls are the MMO equivalent of self segregation, like our new attorney general speaking of people hanging around with their own creed / kind on the weekends, not that I like this guy but that's what comes to mind.I am going to play with my peeps and ignore everyone else, what the hell kind of interactive world is that?I don't want a mound of bodies at the broker but I do like to actually see people in a city, all those houses, apartments and stores must be there for a reason.A good chunk of new players will not stay in EQ2 due to this FACT!That is not good for the long term health of the game period, I don't care what Kendricke says about it, ROFLMAO!

interstellarmatter

02-26-2009, 05:59 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guild Halls are the MMO equivalent of self segregation,No, Guild Halls are an example of players coming together to make a home for themselves in the world. Probably one of the best things added to the game.That is not good for the long term health of the game period, I don't care what Kendricke says about it, ROFLMAO!Why would someone discussing their opinion cause you to ROFLMAO? That's not very mature.</blockquote>

Bran

02-26-2009, 06:11 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I assume that when you all go to the nearest city or town in RL that you ignore everyone and do not interact with anyone?I am going to play with my peeps and ignore everyone else, what the hell kind of interactive world is that?I don't want a mound of bodies at the broker but I do like to actually see people in a city, all those houses, apartments and stores must be there for a reason.</blockquote>I'm sitting at my computer reading what you wrote. I edited it a little but maintained three of your statements that I thought most about. Now for my question...When you go to town or city in RL, what sort of interactions do you have with people that you do not know? I assume you say hello, maybe wave at someone, maybe say good morning or whatever, but what else do you do? I actually do all of those things to trees, bridges and NPC's. I'm really curious, what interactions do you have with people you do not know when you go into town, that you cannot do in an EQ2 town/city?

Spritelady

02-26-2009, 06:26 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I assume that when you all go to the nearest city or town in RL that you ignore everyone and do not interact with anyone?This isn't the real world. But aside from that, when I go out in the real world, I tend to interact with my family when out, not random_stranger_01. So I guess by and large, I do ignore the rest of the people unless I find something of interest that requires interaction. Since there is nothing in EQ2 cities that require me to interact with people (and there never has been - Broker, banker, mender, Tsing.. NONE of this required me to interact with others) I don't feel the need to socialize with other avatars.Guild Halls are the MMO equivalent of self segregation, like our new attorney general speaking of people hanging around with their own creed / kind on the weekends, not that I like this guy but that's what comes to mind.I am going to play with my peeps and ignore everyone else, what the hell kind of interactive world is that?I play this game for 2 reasons. Cheap entertainment and raiding/grouping with my guildmates. My guildmates are all the interaction I need or want for the most part. I have a friends list of people that I might chat with in private tells, people who have either been in my guild or who have raided or grouped with us when we were in need of a particular class. I don't want people stopping me in the streets to chit chat. I got stuff to do!I don't want a mound of bodies at the broker but I do like to actually see people in a city, all those houses, apartments and stores must be there for a reason.The cities, even before guild halls, weren't a place people generally went to by choice. They went there due to need. To bank, broker, mend, TS. Now they don't need to. Houses are there so people can sell their wares out of boxes to allow others to buy without the commission costs and a place to store their junk. The stores sell low level junk, food and drink people stop using at like level 5, fun spells, and newbie spells that you automatically get now anyways. So.. there you have it. The reason those stores are there... to cater to the newbie who needs to buy some cheap food and drink, some barrels and crates for their houses and some cutesy spells. A good chunk of new players will not stay in EQ2 due to this FACT!This is by no means a fact. It is your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to. My opinion differs significantly. I feel new players will go out in the world and try and do what the game was designed for. Quest and kill things to get stuff, sell some stuff, buy some stuff, start getting groups to get more stuff, join a guild to become a part of something bigger, raid and get more stuff. Unless of course they are the casual player.. then they want touchy feely avatar interaction, rainbows and kittens, etc. If I wanted to socialize with strangers, I would go out to a bar or the local pool hall.That is not good for the long term health of the game period, I don't care what Kendricke says about it, ROFLMAO!</blockquote>

Motzi

02-26-2009, 06:28 PM

Wow, please let this thread die...I mean, its probably the 5th one since guild halls, and we're hashing the same stuff out again...

Zarador

02-26-2009, 06:33 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>A good chunk of new players will not stay in EQ2 due to this FACT!That is not good for the long term health of the game period, I don't care what Kendricke says about it, ROFLMAO!</blockquote>I don't think your giving the new players credit. Your a new player, so you have Chat 1-9 on, where almost everyone chats all the time. You see all that chat going across the channel and determine the game is dead and empty? How can that be?So they will walk through an empty town, ignore all that chatter and simply up and leave the game? Remember, they started in the newbie isle with the tutorial. I have yet to play there all by myself, even at odd hours of the day. Do they just assume that these people vanished?When I made my Warlock just a few weeks ago DL, TD, CL, TS, BB, EL, Nek and Zek were all buzzing with activity. Fallen Gate, Wailing Caves, Stormhold, Varsoon and Runnyeye were all looking for more members and had some groups going there. Again, does the new player going out there assume that they were all abducted by aliens because the town was empty?In each one of those newbie zones and low level dungeons there were higher players harvesting or there looking for people to mentor for quests. In fact, I was mentored several times and assisted in EF with some tougher quests by players. Another one assisted me with Fomby's Quest in EL. I also was part of a group clearing Fallen Gate. Since I have been level locking to build up the AA, I have been spending a great deal of time in the zones doing as many quests as I can.So I stand by my opinion that the new player who is actually there to enjoy playing the game is not going to be so clueless as to believe the game is dead and empty based on the populations in town. If their anything like most the players I have had the pleasure of knowing over the years, their also just dropping into town to unload, bank, sell and repair, then heading out for more adventure.I base this on all the questions about class, guilds, level, gear, zones, quests and such in the channels. I can't ever remember someone asking which town was the most populated or which bank/broker hosts the most players.

Zorastiz

02-26-2009, 08:10 PM

<cite>Makr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I assume that when you all go to the nearest city or town in RL that you ignore everyone and do not interact with anyone?I am going to play with my peeps and ignore everyone else, what the hell kind of interactive world is that?I don't want a mound of bodies at the broker but I do like to actually see people in a city, all those houses, apartments and stores must be there for a reason.</blockquote>I'm sitting at my computer reading what you wrote. I edited it a little but maintained three of your statements that I thought most about. Now for my question...When you go to town or city in RL, what sort of interactions do you have with people that you do not know? I assume you say hello, maybe wave at someone, maybe say good morning or whatever, but what else do you do? I actually do all of those things to trees, bridges and NPC's. I'm really curious, what interactions do you have with people you do not know when you go into town, that you cannot do in an EQ2 town/city?</blockquote>In RL as in EQ2, I strike up conversations with many people while I'm out and about, the problem with doing so in EQ2 now is that the cities, that have buildings, that are meant to be inhabited along with the stores, banks etc are empty.I cannot do what I do in RL when I am in town because in EQ the towns are devoid of people.

ke'la

02-26-2009, 08:14 PM

<cite>Motzi@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow, please let this thread die...I mean, its probably the 5th one since guild halls, and we're hashing the same stuff out again...</blockquote>This maybe the 5th since the addtion of Guild Halls, but it is about the 100th of it's type since launch. Granted it was not Guild Halls that where blamed for the "Dead Cities", but there was ALWAYS something, to blame. First, I think it was the number of zones per city, then the number of crafting instances per zone, then of course I believe adding Menders to places outside cities(like the killable one in PoF) made the Cities Ghost Towns.The reason that the cities are, and really have always been Ghost Towns is because there really is no point to them, other then the Bank, Broker, and as a transite hub, as such people passed through them as quickly as possable to get to the fun areas of the game.Also Maybe you have not noticed but when there is fun stuff to do IN the cities they do in fact "Come Alive" maybe you should be campaining for improvments to the cities to get people to have fun IN the cities, instead of campaining to remove other people's Fun.

Zorastiz

02-26-2009, 08:16 PM

I just logged into the game and a funny thing happened, I saw someone in Freeport, one person, one!I guess all of you are right the cities are teeming with life and the game isn't dead, now we can all feel better.I'm off for the weekend so I won't be back til Monday, please feel free to continue in my absence and enjoy your weekends.

Kendricke

02-26-2009, 08:21 PM

erin

02-26-2009, 10:33 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>In RL as in EQ2, I strike up conversations with many people while I'm out and about, the problem with doing so in EQ2 now is that the cities, that have buildings, that are meant to be inhabited along with the stores, banks etc are empty.I cannot do what I do in RL when I am in town because in EQ the towns are devoid of people.</blockquote>Small town maybe? If I strike up a conversation with a total stranger while standing in line at the bank or the grocery store (banker, broker), I'd get odd looks and people trying not to make eye contact, edging away. People don't do that in real life. Maybe you do, but I'd bet you live in a small town if that's the case.And by the way, nothing stops you from making idle conversation with complete strangers, what do you think 1-9 level chat is?

Spyderbite

02-26-2009, 11:21 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess all of you are right the cities are teeming with life and the game isn't dead, now we can all feel better.</blockquote>Nobody said the game was dead because the cities are unoccupied. Players are out doing other things in any one of a hundred new zones available. There is far too much to do in EQ2 to be satisfied sitting in a city greeting everyone that zones in.Judging a game based on the logged in, non-AFK population of a starting system is sort of stupid. I wouldn't have played past MUD's or MOO's if that was the caliber that a game's success or failure was based on.

Zarador

02-27-2009, 01:03 AM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess all of you are right the cities are teeming with life and the game isn't dead, now we can all feel better.</blockquote>Nobody said the game was dead because the cities are unoccupied. Players are out doing other things in any one of a hundred new zones available. There is far too much to do in EQ2 to be satisfied sitting in a city greeting everyone that zones in.Judging a game based on the logged in, non-AFK population of a starting system is sort of stupid. I wouldn't have played past MUD's or MOO's if that was the caliber that a game's success or failure was based on.</blockquote>Funny you mention that.Tonight, once again we camped out in the zone we were in because we were wiped out tired. This happens quite often in our family. We log in, wind up cleaning up the bags, repairing, setting up the broker and then run out to have a blast. Quicker we can get that done, the more fun we can have in our gaming session.For years we raided in Everquest Live and I can't even begin to guess the amount of times someone logged back into a raid zone after camping out dog tired the night before. Maybe it's that "old time" gamer in me where towns were a "journey" to get to and you ran to merchants to exchange coin for gems to sell back later at a loss just to avoid more than a couple of trips to town in a week. I guess when we did arrive at town, yeah, it was a big deal because of the effort to get there.Games have changed just like life has changed. People want online banking, mail order delivery and generally are more interested in doing what they want to do with their time. It's not bad or good, just a reflection of change.

LordPazuzu

02-27-2009, 02:19 AM

I love the guild halls. I've seen more of my guild just casually hanging out and socializing now than ever before. Now that we're not spread out over 5 cities all the time, it's nice. We have the portals so we can visit our own houses from the hall and it's great. it's done wonders to improve guild cohesion and socialization.I see non-guildies all over all the time, clustered around shard NPCs and dungeon zone-ins. Not having to visit the lag-filled cities anymore is nice for me. The cities are still useful when you're still in your first 20 levels, after that the guild hall serves you much better.

Yanikin

02-27-2009, 04:10 AM

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>In RL as in EQ2, I strike up conversations with many people while I'm out and about, the problem with doing so in EQ2 now is that the cities, that have buildings, that are meant to be inhabited along with the stores, banks etc are empty.I cannot do what I do in RL when I am in town because in EQ the towns are devoid of people.</blockquote>Small town maybe? If I strike up a conversation with a total stranger while standing in line at the bank or the grocery store (banker, broker), I'd get odd looks and people trying not to make eye contact, edging away. People don't do that in real life. Maybe you do, but I'd bet you live in a small town if that's the case.And by the way, nothing stops you from making idle conversation with complete strangers, what do you think 1-9 level chat is?</blockquote>I agree with erin. If you do that in RL zorastiz, your the person I stay as far away from as I can, and I would probly do the same in game. No offence, but as others have said I'm there to play, not to chit chat while in town.

bryldan

02-27-2009, 06:24 AM

<cite>Umbrage wrote:</cite><blockquote>What exactly did it do for you before to see people standing at the broker or the bank, not talking or interacting with you in any way? How does that add anything to the game?This argument comes up every few weeks and I find it rather baffling.I guess its like this in a way.......If your walking to work how many people do you talk to? If you go to a football game, how many people do you hang out with and party with? If your at work and its a big office how many of those do you interact with. If you go to the doctors office, how many people in the waiting room do you converse with and interact with?My guess is a minimal amount. But there is comfort in seeing them, knowing they are there and feeling their presence even if you do not talk to them or interact with 99.9 percent of them.So too is Everquest. Its a comfort to know they are there even if you dont interact with 99.9 percent of them. Its nice to see them standing around the broker same as you. Or waiting for the boat. Same as you. Or using the tradeskill area, same as you.I rather suspect if all those people went poof from your real world it would be sorely missed. Some people just miss them more then others. I rather suspect this is the case with this argument.The emptiness of towns and zones is why you hear statements like "This game is dieing." Perhaps its not but the ghost town feel of it sure seems to support that theory.</blockquote>To be honest if I am walking to work or waiting in the docs office I would MUCH rather not have anybody around. If i was at the game it would be LOVELY not to have that $#$# standing up in front of me blocking my view of the game. There is ZERO comfort in me having ppl that I WILL not socialize with and personally do not give a dang about around me. Call it pompus or whatever that is the way i feel in todays society of massive amounts of morons and stuff.

Zorastiz

02-27-2009, 08:03 AM

erin

02-27-2009, 09:34 AM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess all of you are right the cities are teeming with life and the game isn't dead, now we can all feel better.</blockquote>Nobody said the game was dead because the cities are unoccupied. Players are out doing other things in any one of a hundred new zones available. There is far too much to do in EQ2 to be satisfied sitting in a city greeting everyone that zones in.Judging a game based on the logged in, non-AFK population of a starting system is sort of stupid. I wouldn't have played past MUD's or MOO's if that was the caliber that a game's success or failure was based on.</blockquote>I was waiting for the other arrogant, condescending fanboi to post here, I knew you could do it Spy!</blockquote>Please stop attacking the other posters and attempt to formulate some sort of argument that might support your side of this discussion. Thanks.

bryldan

02-27-2009, 10:25 AM

<cite>Baccalarium wrote:</cite><blockquote>I might see an argument that some zones are not well populated leaving new folks with less interaction.I've never been much to use level chats. If I have a question about something in a particular zone, I'd rather use the zone chat than a chat that spans the entire server. I may /who my zone looking for someone of my level and desired class to join up with for duo or trio. I was on an alt lost in Freeport (I only have one evil alt, and its not from Freeport) looking for something. Though there were a few people in zone none would respond to the my /ooc. I think there have been times in the past when I have requested or offered advice in city /ooc before. So perhaps the lack of a response is a symptom of this problem. I don't blame guild halls for this though. I saw the same lacking in eve where everyone was off in their guild channels and useful responses were few and far between. It made me quit that game before really starting, so I suppose the similar situation could make folks quit eq2 before getting high enough to see the real community in channels.What might help this:1) Make the city's single large zones like Moors and Kylong Plains, so that /who and /ooc show a larger population. There is no longer the need to cut these zones into such small fragments. Unfortunatley I suspect this would be a major endeavor development cost wise.2) Alternatively, make /ooc and /who treat the subzones of the cities like a single zone without redesigning the city itself.3) Allow those in guild halls to elect to remain a member of their home city zone for /who and /ooc purposes.This would make the cities still be a place where new folks would have a decent chance at spotting players and asking questions. Don't expect the new player to be able to hunt down all the alternate channels right off the bat, but /who and /ooc they probably catch on to fairly quick.Now if you just want to see hustle and bustle. I'm really not with you on that. Hustle and Bustle just equal lag. </blockquote>1) I think they already have this but no one uses the Queynos and the Freeport channels lol. It is a normal chat channel that nobody uses so it would not be hard to implement something that makes use it i guess in the cities.3) not sure this might be harder to code than anything due to how /ooc and /who work. How would it deferantiate between the guildhall and the city? That would be the biggest hurddle to overcome.

DukeTyri

02-27-2009, 10:30 AM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>SUGGESTION:I agree that a new player might perceive it as a ghost town. With that said, maybe SoE should setup a "newbie" instanced quest where a player enters a T1, T2 and T3 Guild Hall populated by NPC's. They learn about Guilds and the Amenities. Maybe let them even try out the Status Mounts while in the T-3 Instance of the Hall. Training dummies would also help them catch up on those skills and understand the value of them. As a reward, they get to use some of those features in the halls for a certain amount of time or levels, plus AA and Exp like any other quest. Maybe make them pay some Status for the use of certain amenities while introducing them to the "Writ System". In fact, you could even have a writ giver in the zone that gives them "mini writs" to obtain the points needed to try some of the amenities out.At the end of the quest line their asked if their interested in joining a Guild and at the same time Guilds looking for new low level players maybe receive a in game mail with the players name for a contact. I think that may help the guilds while making a new player feel more welcomed. This would introduce them to the concept of Guilds and Guild Halls while helping them decide if being in a Guild is right for them. At the very least, they would somewhat understand why the towns became barren to some extent. If the problem is that they are perceiving the world as empty based on the player population in cities, then the solution would seem to be demonstrating why people left the city in the first place. </blockquote>Well, at least there has been one decent post in this thread, where someone has tried to find a solution, rather than trying to attach blame, or attack people that do not think the same as they do.Guild Halls are here to stay and I have no issue with that. I am pleased that your guild can all come together in one place to socialise outside of the frenzy of a raid dungeon.It must be clear to some of you though, that new and returning players have no idea these guild halls even exist?One idea above is to have some part of the tutorial that allows people to see them or a city dungoen, to bring activity back.Another might be to have a *Tip: Did you know that most players now frequent their guild halls which can be found XXX*Perhaps even clearly marked portals in the towns, to take you to wherever these guild halls are, as I for one have no idea.Either way, people seeing activity can only be a good thing and I do not count level 1-9 chat, as the short time I was in it, it was filled with various spam including discussions about areas of the internet that should certainly not be discussed in a family game.My wife and I are progressing through however and have finally found some level of activity around Varsoons and Runnyere, but how many will keep going that long? (The ones that really don't care about new players can feel free to ignore this question, as you have already made it clear that you only care about yourselves)Thanks

erin

02-27-2009, 10:47 AM

<cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>My wife and I are progressing through however and have finally found some level of activity around Varsoons and Runnyere, but how many will keep going that long? (The ones that really don't care about new players can feel free to ignore this question, as you have already made it clear that you only care about yourselves)Thanks</blockquote>Its not about caring or not caring about new players. I happen to give new players a tiny shred of credit for intelligence.I think that when they see "guild [guild name] looking for more players, we have a t1 guildhall" blah blah blah... that they will either understand what was said, or *gasp* ask questions in the level chat that is automatically active when they log in."Hey what's a guild hall for", "hey why would I want to join a guild", etc. Since the side of the argument arguing for cities being dead is all about new players thinking there's no one around to interact with, shouldn't that also assume that these players are TRYING to interact? Therefore they would ask questions?Instead, apparently new players stand around the cities wondering where everyone is, see the level chat flow by but aren't ever going to say anything. In other words, these types of new players are never going to interact anyway, so what good are they?The new players I see, and I've seen quite a few over the last few weeks, they ask questions. They ask LOTS of questions.And they generally get answers. And most join a guild fairly quickly, and therefore are also "hiding out" in those guild halls.

DukeTyri

02-27-2009, 10:59 AM

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that when they see "guild [guild name] looking for more players, we have a t1 guildhall" blah blah blah... that they will either understand what was said, or *gasp* ask questions in the level chat that is automatically active when they log in.Instead, apparently new players stand around the cities wondering where everyone is, see the level chat flow by but aren't ever going to say anything. In other words, these types of new players are never going to interact anyway, so what good are they?And they generally get answers. And most join a guild fairly quickly, and therefore are also "hiding out" in those guild halls.</blockquote>The level 1-9 chat that I saw was full of spam, so it was turned off fairly quickly, when I tried it again, I saw exactly the same. You are expecting new players to read through all that crap?New players, at least some new players, like to try and find their feet. My wife and I are certainly not the type to log in and say, where is this NPC? Where can I but a hat? What do I but a bag? You will find that many new players will try to get by without asking, especially in a channel full of spam and used by level 80s.My experience from other games tells me not to join the first guild I see. I prefer to group and hunt with people and when i find a group who's company I enjoy and seem like minded, then I may ask about thier guild. Does that mean I am not interacting?Even looking in the guild page, the requirements go on, minimum level 30, minimum AA's etc...I am trying to help other new/returning players feel more welcome, you on the other hand are just assuming that everyone who doesn't play the game the way you expect them to is playing it wrong.

liveja

02-27-2009, 12:37 PM

<cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>One idea above is to have some part of the tutorial that allows people to see them or a city dungoen, to bring activity back.Another might be to have a *Tip: Did you know that most players now frequent their guild halls which can be found XXX*Perhaps even clearly marked portals in the towns, to take you to wherever these guild halls are, as I for one have no idea.</blockquote>You know, it's kinda sad that it's taken this many pages of blather before SOMEONE actually offered up a reasonable suggestion of what to do to improve cities that wouldn't take something away from guild halls. In fact, these suggestions even work to tie city activity to guild halls, which improves both cities & guild halls.To build on the idea, it would be nice if there was a "zone of the week" feature -- perhaps hosted on EQ2 players -- that highlighted vid clips of groups running through various dungeons, both instanced & contested. As an added bonus, perhaps the players could all be members of a guild, with their tags & cloaks displayed, & the run could start in their guild hall, highlighting the various amenities, & then end up gating back to their guild hall for more displays.In Qeynos, the low level guild halls are in North Qeynos, in the long, narrow building nearest the Qeynos Claymore. The T2 guild halls are in SQ, off to the right of the gate to NQ. The BIG guild halls can be accessed from the docks in Antonica; one of the bells can be right-clicked to allow you to visit the various elites out on the island. I don't know where they are in Freeport, though the biggest guild halls in Freeport are on the Commonlands island & can be visited much as the Qeynos elites can be.If you're on Mistmoore, feel free to come to North Qeynos & visit Cygnus Rising's guild hall. You'll be able to see what a small, mostly casual friends-&-family guild can do. Even if you're not on Mistmoore, I invite you to create a level 1 Qeynosian character & come visit us.

Zarador

02-27-2009, 12:41 PM

Old Guild Style Crafting:Guildie: Can someone make me a [insert item]Crafter: Sure can, I just need to load my alternate to pull out the [Insert Rares]Guildie: Sure thing, I put the [Rare] in Guild Bank 2.Crafter: Thanks, let me run to the bank and grab it! Oops, I'm out of Roots!Guildie: No problem, my alternate has some, let me load him.Crafter: Thanks, headed back to the Bank!Guildie: Thanks again, loading my main, will wait by the bank since you can't come to Qeynos (Evil Crafter)Crafter: Okay (wait five minutes). Alright, it's done, put it in Bank 3Guildie: Thanks again (who was that masked crafter that I never met?).Guild Hall Crafting:Guildie: Can someone make me a [insert item] here's the [Rare]Crafter: (Uses the Harvesting Depot) Okay, all done, enjoy!Guildie: Wow! Awesome, thanks again!Crafter: No problem, I hang out here and craft a lot when I'm not doing missions, enjoy!Basically with the old style, there was a lot of immersion running around from crafting instance to bankers. Of course some of the immersion lost was the crafter never meeting up with the guild member personally. Since many crafters are low level adventurers, they tend to stay near a crafting station in their room or town. So yes, outsiders may have observed this guy running around from bank to crafting area for fuels and such, but the person who was really interacting with them, seldom got to see them. Some guildies would even avoid asking someone to load up their crafter for some items simply because of all the running around that was involved on the crafters part.In the end, there is less visability of the Guild Members by strangers, yet more real interaction between the guild members. Not to mention that crafters are a valuable asset to the Guild, yet the previous system had them in the crafting instances or their rooms away from the Guild. Not really fair to someone who partisipates, yet seldom interacts one on one with the other members.

Kendricke

02-27-2009, 12:47 PM

<cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Either way, people seeing activity can only be a good thing and I do not count level 1-9 chat, as the short time I was in it, it was filled with various spam including discussions about areas of the internet that should certainly not be discussed in a family game.</blockquote>...and exactly what type of "activity" were you seeing in Qeynos Harbor or East Freeport? I'm not sure if it's revisionist rememberances, a touch of nostalgia, rose colored goggles, or perhaps just more luck than I'd run into, but there was rarely a day that would pass where I wasn't shaking my head at someone in Qeynos Harbor for something. East Freeport was worse. This repeated idea that chat channels were filled with a monstrous cesspool of disembodied voices whereas Qeynos Harbor was some shining beacon of ideal player interaction just leaves me baffled. Where were you people before? Do we really, really need to start linking to threads from a year or two ago which complained about the behavior of other players/lag/layout of the city harbors to remind everyone that this mental picture we have of the "good ol' days" is not matching up with the reality of what actually occured? <cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am trying to help other new/returning players feel more welcome, you on the other hand are just assuming that everyone who doesn't play the game the way you expect them to is playing it wrong.</blockquote>You're trying to change the game to fit your preferred playstyle whereas other players here are trying to help you fit in with the current game as it is. Every comment about using the chat channels or guilds is because that's where new players should go. If this were Warhammer Online, I'd tell you what part of Norsca to go to in order to join the best chat channels or how you could find the best guilds to join. If this were World of Warcraft, I'd tell you to avoid Barrens Chat. If this were Age of Conan, I'd tell you to cancel and play anything else. If this were Planetside, I'd tell you how to use the tutorial to level up your Battle Rank quickly and then to use the Instant Action button to find some quick fights. Because it's Everquest II, I'll continue to point out that new players should first move to Timorous or Darklight, then make sure to join/participate in 1-9. If someone says something inappropriate, I'd show them how to use /ignore and /report. I'd point out which guilds on my server are most friendly to new players (I'm partial to Jaggedpine Defender, Mystic Crusaders, and Revelry and Honor). I'd answer questions related to Achievements or gear or spell quality if the discussion got that far. Don't assume I (or anyone else) want other players to play like me. I raid four nights a week and spend several hours each week just administering my guild. I spend hours on the broker each week finding good reselling opportunities. I'm constantly helping to organize groups or events. I sift through pages and pages of log files to identify what we did right/wrong on our last raid. I don't advise other players to play like me. I don't advise me to play like me. You don't want to ask for help? That's fine. Don't ask. However, I fail to see how "not asking" in a chat channel is any different from "not asking" in a city zone. You want to find out where the people are, they're where they have always been - in the chat channels. P.S. - New players won't even know that players used to hang out in Qeynos Harbor, by the way. Do you think new players in classic Everquest realize that the big social/trading hub on most servers was the East Commons tunnel?

Rijacki

02-27-2009, 01:00 PM

<cite>kela wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Motzi@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow, please let this thread die...I mean, its probably the 5th one since guild halls, and we're hashing the same stuff out again...</blockquote>This maybe the 5th since the addtion of Guild Halls, but it is about the 100th of it's type since launch. Granted it was not Guild Halls that where blamed for the "Dead Cities", but there was ALWAYS something, to blame. First, I think it was the number of zones per city, then the number of crafting instances per zone, then of course I believe adding Menders to places outside cities(like the killable one in PoF) made the Cities Ghost Towns.The reason that the cities are, and really have always been Ghost Towns is because there really is no point to them, other then the Bank, Broker, and as a transite hub, as such people passed through them as quickly as possable to get to the fun areas of the game.Also Maybe you have not noticed but when there is fun stuff to do IN the cities they do in fact "Come Alive" maybe you should be campaining for improvments to the cities to get people to have fun IN the cities, instead of campaining to remove other people's Fun.</blockquote>In EQ1, it was the opening of The Bazaar on the moon, Nexus for travel, and the Plane of Knowledge for travel that 'killed' the cities.Before The Bazaar, you would have clumps of people selling things in various locations (prime locations differed server to server, Commonlands Tunnel was pretty common, though) and people congregating at the bank in various cities. On the RP server (Firiona Vie), shout was even limited distance initially. Then The Bazaar opened and became the prime selling place. The cities were places to pass through, not pause for any length of time. Oh.. the death knell of the game.. came the wail.The Nexus and then the Plane of Knowledge became the prime means of travel. The cities became even less used since access to the Bazaar's bank became even quicker. Oh.. the death knell of the game.. was the wail. New players will encounter empty areas and never want to play..I left EQ1 shortly before Gates of Discord launched. That was five years ago. At the last Fan Faire, the two largest representations of players were EQ1 and EQ2. EQ1 has passed its 10 year aniversary and has another new expansion launched around the same time as the EQ2 one. Did the emptying of the cities by thus and so 'kill' the game?

DukeTyri

02-27-2009, 01:16 PM

Kendricke wrote: P.S. - New players won't even know that players used to hang out in Qeynos Harbor, by the way.No, new players will just log in and wonder why the game looks so empty, very much like my wife did until I explained that there used to be alot more activity.I am not telling you to give up your guild halls, I am just trying to suggest ways to help new players into the game and at least I am trying to come up with ideas and suggestions, from the view point of a new player, which is more than can be said for alot of players in this thread.Anyhow, I am done with this thread. I have tried to give a view point, but it seems pointless, as few of you are interested and the ones that are seem more interested in attacking anyone who dares speak.Yes, the *Tip: Guild Halls are in XXX* and the Guild Halls in tutorial ideas would probably destroy the game as you wish to play it, so I will leave you to attack the next person who dares comment.

Motzi

02-27-2009, 01:32 PM

<cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kendricke wrote: P.S. - New players won't even know that players used to hang out in Qeynos Harbor, by the way.No, new players will just log in and wonder why the game looks so empty, very much like my wife did until I explained that there used to be alot more activity.I am not telling you to give up your guild halls, I am just trying to suggest ways to help new players into the game and at least I am trying to come up with ideas and suggestions, from the view point of a new player, which is more than can be said for alot of players in this thread.Anyhow, I am done with this thread. I have tried to give a view point, but it seems pointless, as few of you are interested and the ones that are seem more interested in attacking anyone who dares speak.</blockquote>/join Level_1-9/1 Hello World!Oh look, there are players in my MMO!Now please for all that is holy, let this thread die <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bran

02-27-2009, 01:34 PM

Discounting this entire thread because it's been done a few times would be pretty easy if I had read it all of those times but this is actually my first time so I'm enjoying the discussion.Guess what I'm getting out of this thread?<ul><li>Some people like to have avatars around them in towns and other gathering spots</li><li>Some people like to have avatars around them in guilds and on raids</li><li>Some people do not need avatars around them as long as they can communicate via chat</li><li>Some people do not need avatars around them nor do they need to communicate via chat</li></ul>Additionally I've discovered...<ul><li>Some people with firm opinions of the way things should be get really upset if others do not adopt their opinions</li><li>Some people with differing opinions will try forever to get others to agree with them instead of accepting that others have different opinions</li><li>Some people like to insult those who do not agree with them</li><li>Some people will will insult everyone else why praising the one or two people who agree with them</li><li>Some people discount the opinions of others if they do not agree with their own opinions</li></ul>How in the world could I discount a thread that is teaching me so much?

Mikai

02-27-2009, 02:25 PM

We all pay to play the game. If the game doesn't offer what we want, we leave. Some of us, on the other hand, complain......rather loudly, i might add. Guild halls aren't going anywhere. SOE would have a mutiny on their hands if they got rid of them. (my guild alone would incite a rather large riot. lol) Some people are under the impression (falsely, imo) that people in city zones dictates the activity of a game. I personally never gave a second glance to anyone in those city zones. I don't know them and they don't know me. But, obviously, there are those who disagree with me.If you don't like the way this game is going, nothing is keeping you here. If you are looking for more random people to stand around with while you broker/bank/etc........join a large guild with a guild hall and stand around in there. City zones, anymore, are little more than a place to safely go AFK. Even before guild halls were introduced, that was the case. Do people really log on just to stand around in some city hoping for interaction?Without guilds, I don't think many of us would be playing this game. Guilds offer a networking, a way of meeting people you don't know. Some click, some do not. It's a part of life. If anything, imho, Guild Halls offer more interaction, at least with the people we know best in this game. The OP postulates that this lack of people in city zones is a "BIG negative side effect". I don't agree. I think, if anything, it means that people are growing closer together with those they play with regularly. The fact they aren't in those city zones means they are elsewhere enjoying the game. By offering Guild Halls, SOE has ensured that more people will be sticking around. We all know without Guilds, EQ2 wouldn't likely succeed. It's a smart business move to offer the very thing people OBVIOUSLY want.I find it funny that the "few" cry the loudest.

Rijacki

02-27-2009, 02:31 PM

<cite>Coho1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just add some dungeons for all levels to the cities..then folks will move thru.Catacombs, burial caves, whatever</blockquote>This actually IS the best idea. Have incentive to go there, not go there by default (i.e. sans guild halls having amenities). During the Holiday or other Events, you DO see more people in the cities, if only just to get the quests, do them, and get out.I would love to see Qeynos, Freeport, and sewers beneath them be on the table for the next original zone revamps. I would love to see new permanent content for all level ranges be added to those starting cities with the sewer zones getting enhanced to be places level capped players go to as a destination.But, I like new content. I like new content in old places, too, and am looking forward to the new content coming to Lavastorm.

Kendricke

02-27-2009, 02:37 PM

Whether it was moving travel bells out of the cities and into Steppes/Nektulos, outright removing NPC's and low level quest givers, opening up new starting cities, or the introduction of city amenities to Guild Halls, design decisions have been made over the years which have absolutely encouraged a shifting of activity away from cities. Creating new dungeons now would be one potential answer (as there was a brief revamp of low level racial quests back when archetypes were removed), but for how long? For what levels? Would those dungeons truly encourage "activity" in the cities, or merely encourage more movement through cities. This whole discussion centers largely around perception. For some players, if the perception is that cities aren't alive, then obviously they aren't. Does that perception need to have other actual players to achieve the same goal? I mentioned Rivet City earlier, from the game Fallout 3. It's remarkable. Even though I'm in a single player game when I log into Fallout 3, I've never felt as if Rivet City is "dead". There's not a single other player anywhere in Rivet City with me, but there are NPC's EVERYWHERE. More than that, the NPC's all have little lives that play out. Depending on the time of day, you might find the shopkeepers from the Rivet City market back in their apartments sleeping, gathered for breakfast at the market cafe, out running errands, or (Surprise!) actually sitting near their market stalls ready to hustle a few bottlecaps out of you.Guards have names and personalities. Everyone has a purpose, even if that purpose is simply to be a child running around. Every room, every NPC, every twist and turn has a story - even if it's not one you've heard yet. You don't need other players to craft a living, breathing city. You need a well crafted city filled with well designed NPC's. Could it be done in Everquest II? Possibly, with a great deal of work and essentially a city revamp. Would it be WORTH it though? How many hours would such a project take? How many resources? Is that the best use of those hours and resources? As players, we don't need to think about that. A complaint is a complaint. If cities feel "dead", then they feel dead. I'm not arguing that. What I've tried to point out is that the cities have always felt "dead" to me, more or less. I've only gone to the cities because of the amenities there...not to interact or involve myself in stories or quests. I completed those quests years ago on my primary characters and I don't even bother to start them on newer ones (since the rewards are much better in newer zones anyway). So, I'll admit don't spend too much time worried about the state of the old cities. I realize the likelihood of anything dramatic happening isn't too strong. I don't worry about what would be ideal and look to what is actually occuring. What's occuring is that Neriak and Gorowyn are much more "alive" with new players than Qeynos or Freeport these days. Timorous is much busier than Queen's Colony. And of course, there's the chats. The chats are as busy now as ever. Channel 1-9 is pretty busy. It's accessible to every player. Guilds are also accessible to every player. So, instead of spending time and energy on what SOE should do with the cities anytime someone who isn't in a (larger/organized/active/???) guild decides that the cities are now "dead" and it's all SOE's fault, I try to show that the cities aren't the point - they almost never were. It's like starting up an ogre in old Everquest and deciding the game is dead because there's no one else in Oggok. Better yet, start up Planetside and wander the starting staging area and when you see no one around, make the assumed statement that the game is dead. The game isn't "dead". The game is just elsewhere. Everyone's out playing, not standing.

Arslan2000

02-27-2009, 06:34 PM

<cite>Zorastiz@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I assume that when you all go to the nearest city or town in RL that you ignore everyone and do not interact with anyone?Guild Halls are the MMO equivalent of self segregation, like our new attorney general speaking of people hanging around with their own creed / kind on the weekends, not that I like this guy but that's what comes to mind.I am going to play with my peeps and ignore everyone else, what the hell kind of interactive world is that?I don't want a mound of bodies at the broker but I do like to actually see people in a city, all those houses, apartments and stores must be there for a reason.A good chunk of new players will not stay in EQ2 due to this FACT!That is not good for the long term health of the game period, I don't care what Kendricke says about it, ROFLMAO!</blockquote>When I go out, whether to eat with my fiance, or just for a pleasant walk in the park, yes, I ignore the people around me. I am to busy paying attention for things that could be dangerous to give pleasantries to a stranger. Most people in the world are like that. If you walk down the streets of most cities, you will be ignored. If you talk to strangers, they will avoid you and give you odd looks. To me, each person is a potential threat, and is evaluated as such.Most people when they go to have fun ignore other people as well. If you go down to play some basketball, the people playing may not give you the time of day, much less you play with them. In other words, they have no desire for a PuG. People complain all the time about the lack of social players in MMO's, but for goodness sake, MMO's are an exact replica of the society they are complaining about.Because of the way the world has changed, we they people have changed. We are closed in and keep to ourselves. I am one of those here that can remember when we did not lock the doors at night. Now days, all the windows in the house are closed when we are not home, and at night, most of them are closed up for safety. I never wanted this for the world. I just try to live in it and protect those that I love. This reflects into our virtual world as well.

Rijacki

02-27-2009, 08:53 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I mentioned Rivet City earlier, from the game Fallout 3. It's remarkable. Even though I'm in a single player game when I log into Fallout 3, I've never felt as if Rivet City is "dead". There's not a single other player anywhere in Rivet City with me, but there are NPC's EVERYWHERE. More than that, the NPC's all have little lives that play out. Depending on the time of day, you might find the shopkeepers from the Rivet City market back in their apartments sleeping, gathered for breakfast at the market cafe, out running errands, or (Surprise!) actually sitting near their market stalls ready to hustle a few bottlecaps out of you.Guards have names and personalities. Everyone has a purpose, even if that purpose is simply to be a child running around. Every room, every NPC, every twist and turn has a story - even if it's not one you've heard yet. You don't need other players to craft a living, breathing city. You need a well crafted city filled with well designed NPC's. Could it be done in Everquest II? Possibly, with a great deal of work and essentially a city revamp. Would it be WORTH it though? How many hours would such a project take? How many resources? Is that the best use of those hours and resources? </blockquote>There were once a lot more NPCs in the cities and 'burbs with many of them having dialog triggered by people passing or whatnot. But, in response to complaints of lag, more and more of the NPCs were removed. The repetative dialog of many of them was silenced (and was mostly silence-able from Options anyway). Several who would interact with players, if only giving out some sort of easy quest, were also removed in "revamps" to the low-level content making even NPC interaction a thing of the past.Even without a lot of players around, the cities did still feel somewhat alive because, like in the single player game Kendricke cites, there were NPCs doing things and not just standing in a clump in one spot (NPCs clumped on top of each other is the one thing that makes a city feel 'dead' to me). The cities being so darn quiet without any.. umm.. filler noises (like the sound of the sea and bells clanging at the dock) also makes them feel more lifeless.I'd love to see both more content added (or added back) that encouraged a return to the cities and also a return of the NPCs that -did- things (and return the voice overs, too).

erin

02-27-2009, 11:20 PM

<cite>DukeTyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, new players will just log in and wonder why the game looks so empty, very much like my wife did until I explained that there used to be alot more activity.Most new players I've interacted with, and there's been quite a few recently, are chatting in 1-9 chat, asking questions. That's where the community is, and they managed to figure that out in the first 30 seconds of playing.I am not telling you to give up your guild halls, I am just trying to suggest ways to help new players into the game and at least I am trying to come up with ideas and suggestions, from the view point of a new player, which is more than can be said for alot of players in this thread.You are not telling us to give up guild halls, you are telling us that we are playing the game wrong somehow, that we are driving away new players. I'm sorry you feel that way. But I look at things very differently than you. When I pick up an MMO I don't try and change it to what it "should" be, I make sure I understand how that particular MMO IS, and I adjust to fit that MMO, so that I can be successful (whatever that means to me in that particular MMO). Chat, community its all in the chat channels. It is NOT in the cities. It never really has been. I still haven't gotten a clue from anyone why players standing around AFK in a city or standing at the broker or bank ignoring all around them somehow makes a game alive. That baffles me completely.Anyhow, I am done with this thread. I have tried to give a view point, but it seems pointless, as few of you are interested and the ones that are seem more interested in attacking anyone who dares speak.If you truly believe you were attacked in this thread, I strongly recommend you give up posting entirely. Given the topic, and the volatility of said topic, it was amazingly civil.Yes, the *Tip: Guild Halls are in XXX* and the Guild Halls in tutorial ideas would probably destroy the game as you wish to play it, so I will leave you to attack the next person who dares comment.Its a perfectly reasonable idea, I don't think anyone even disagreed with it, other than from the stance that guild halls and guilds are so blindingly obvious to anyone who participates in the game and the chat channels that its a waste of dev time. But I have no problem if they want to add something to the tutorial. 15 minutes in 1-9 chat will garner you, usually 1 to 5 guild spams. Any new player who watched chat would either join one or ask about them, if they were truly new to MMOs. You chose to turn off 1-9 chat immediately, and you have thus deprived yourself almost entirely of the community you claim to crave. It was your choice.</blockquote>

Spyderbite

02-27-2009, 11:54 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>The game isn't "dead". The game is just elsewhere. Everyone's out playing, not standing.</blockquote>This is where it stands. Introducing more NPC's just to give the introverts a feeling of fellowship like Will Smith with his mannequins in I Am Legend is just going to cause lag for those passing through.. especially on the heavily populated servers.Options have been put out there for those lost souls feeling a little lonely.. Join a guild, participate in the 1-9 chat, go to the more active zones.Yet every advocate seems to want the action brought to them. "Take the guild amenities away from them so they have to come to town and play with OUR ball". <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

scruffylookin

02-28-2009, 01:14 AM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yet every advocate seems to want the action brought to them. "Take the guild amenities away from them so they have to come to town and play with OUR ball". <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Not me. Guild Halls have dramatically improved the gameplay for the majority of players (I think... I mean, I don't have the numbers, but I think that's a safe assumption).I think the OPs mistake here is assuming the guild halls are to blame for the old cities being empty. The problem isn't actually the guild halls... it's the fact that there are now zones in the game that aren't used, and (more importantly) zones that SOE doesn't even really expect to be used.After some thought on this issue, I'm actually changing my stance a little bit here. I think my first opinion on this might have been a little premature...The more I think about it, the more I think that the guild halls are not really why Q and FP are empty. When creating an alt, most people are going to go to the newer cities because of the improved loot and leveling. Because of this, the poor new player that chooses Qeynos because he doesn't know any better will see an emptier zone. Last week, I rerolled a character in Darklight Wood, and that zone was packed.The more I think about it, the more I think a significant revamp of the leveling progression in the zones surrounding these cities will make huge strides to fixing this issue.The altaholics are the ones that really keep cities alive, and they always have. The experienced folks (even before guild halls) would go to the cities, take care of business, then get out there in the world. I think making Q and FP worth alting would make those areas much more alive. I know I'd LOVE to roll and alt and go adventuring again in Oakmyst or Antonica. I actually still do go there, but that's from nostalgia I think. It'd be grand to go there and experience something new.

Zarador

02-28-2009, 01:54 AM

Think of it as an experiment.Everyone that is for Guild Halls and the Amentities step to this side of the room.Those for standing next to brokers and bankers in a distant town step to that side of the room.Hey...one side of the room is almost empty?The people have spoken. I know, lets remove that side of the room where the people are most happy so everyone can enjoy being together again. Wait, does that make sense?

Daron

02-28-2009, 03:41 AM

I can't fathom why some people would want to take away our druid ring, mariner's bells, harvesting box, menders and all vendors and broker and banker next to each other so that they can stand next to someone. Freaking start a summoner and walk around with your pet or something. Please stop whining.

Zorastiz

02-28-2009, 10:04 AM

I never advocated taking anything away form anyone, I just prefer seeing other people when I am out running around. We have a T3 hall but frankly it's not where I like to spend much time, as for 1 to 9 chat it is full of trash talking, cussing, stupidity and children, you report em, petition em and nothing changes, why have it turned on?I'm a social animal, I enjoy people that's all I was trying to say in the first place, I don't want anyone to lose anything they value in the game, I can't help the fact that for me personally it detracts from what I like in a manner I am not happy with.As I like to say in RL "to each his own" or as my friends down south say "Whatever Floats Your Boat", but at least allow me to have a diverging opinion!

denmom

02-28-2009, 11:25 AM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Coho1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just add some dungeons for all levels to the cities..then folks will move thru.Catacombs, burial caves, whatever</blockquote>This actually IS the best idea. Have incentive to go there, not go there by default (i.e. sans guild halls having amenities). During the Holiday or other Events, you DO see more people in the cities, if only just to get the quests, do them, and get out.I would love to see Qeynos, Freeport, and sewers beneath them be on the table for the next original zone revamps. I would love to see new permanent content for all level ranges be added to those starting cities with the sewer zones getting enhanced to be places level capped players go to as a destination.But, I like new content. I like new content in old places, too, and am looking forward to the new content coming to Lavastorm.</blockquote>They've been 'revamped' a bit...they use to be heroic but now they're not so much. You can solo Crypt of Betrayal for the most part, just be careful of the last of the triple ups, Archaic Fury, who roams. I'm not sure on Edgewater Drains, never really went into there much.But yah, I'd like to see something be done with the undercity areas in Qeynos and FP. And I'm also looking forward to the new Lavastorm revamp.

denmom

02-28-2009, 11:30 AM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I mentioned Rivet City earlier, from the game Fallout 3. It's remarkable. Even though I'm in a single player game when I log into Fallout 3, I've never felt as if Rivet City is "dead". There's not a single other player anywhere in Rivet City with me, but there are NPC's EVERYWHERE. More than that, the NPC's all have little lives that play out. Depending on the time of day, you might find the shopkeepers from the Rivet City market back in their apartments sleeping, gathered for breakfast at the market cafe, out running errands, or (Surprise!) actually sitting near their market stalls ready to hustle a few bottlecaps out of you.Guards have names and personalities. Everyone has a purpose, even if that purpose is simply to be a child running around. Every room, every NPC, every twist and turn has a story - even if it's not one you've heard yet. You don't need other players to craft a living, breathing city. You need a well crafted city filled with well designed NPC's. Could it be done in Everquest II? Possibly, with a great deal of work and essentially a city revamp. Would it be WORTH it though? How many hours would such a project take? How many resources? Is that the best use of those hours and resources? </blockquote>There were once a lot more NPCs in the cities and 'burbs with many of them having dialog triggered by people passing or whatnot. But, in response to complaints of lag, more and more of the NPCs were removed. The repetative dialog of many of them was silenced (and was mostly silence-able from Options anyway). Several who would interact with players, if only giving out some sort of easy quest, were also removed in "revamps" to the low-level content making even NPC interaction a thing of the past.</blockquote>They're not really removed. If you look along the canal wall behind the buildings in SQ, you'll find about 5-10 NPCs just standing there, few in the day but more at night. Same for Freeport, the NPCs will gather around Executioner's Square and in other spots in the main city. In NQ, they'll gather at Ironforge Estate.It's really creepy as hell, imho. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />

Noaani

02-28-2009, 12:25 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would love to see Qeynos, Freeport, and sewers beneath them be on the table for the next original zone revamps.</blockquote>Not till they have done Feerrott!Then they can do the cities, sewers and T1 zones, then DoF...Thing with the cities is, anything for a specific level range will not work, and anything added that is not intended to be repeated with simply add people to the zones for a few days, followed by tumbleweeds again.Adding in the next wave of crafter quests to the cities, but with them involving more than just crafting (even if it is Fed Exing their products around after, or running round the cities collecting components for quest combines).Adding in a daily repeatable adventure quest that results in a consumable (or component for a consumable) that players will want.Adding in a central display area of Norrathian lore (ie, a museum).Adding in mini games only avalible in city zones, something along the lines of poker with the city guards, Kingsfield in Starcrest Commune (something in game that needs to be expanded on imo) or even a place players can go to play /gems. Just something to keep people occupied while LFG.Making use of the arena will add people to city zones even if only for a small amount of time (it would turn the area outside the arenas into an AFK spot for a lot of players).An expansion of EFP and QH to add in more dock space (QH) and a drydock (EFP), and then make use of them. Have the docks functioning, with players boarding boats instead of clicking bells, cargo ships being loaded and unloaded etc, and have the drydocks slowly build and repair ships (the refloating or christening of a ship could make for an event of some kind). While it is not necessary to add player interaction to any of these, it could not hurt to do so (carpenters helping build/repair ships etc).IMO though, no city revamp could be complete without combining all of the city propper zones in to a single zone (all 10 of each cities zones if possible).

Spyderbite

02-28-2009, 02:11 PM

I know exactly what the cities need! And, I'm certain Producer Kirstie will agree with me...<img src="http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/DJSpyderBite/ducks.jpg" width="300" height="225" />More Ducks!(Taken yesterday at Mystic Seaport, in Mystic, CT.)Quack!

liveja

02-28-2009, 02:14 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I mentioned Rivet City earlier, from the game Fallout 3. It's remarkable. Even though I'm in a single player game when I log into Fallout 3, I've never felt as if Rivet City is "dead". There's not a single other player anywhere in Rivet City with me, but there are NPC's EVERYWHERE. More than that, the NPC's all have little lives that play out. Depending on the time of day, you might find the shopkeepers from the Rivet City market back in their apartments sleeping, gathered for breakfast at the market cafe, out running errands, or (Surprise!) actually sitting near their market stalls ready to hustle a few bottlecaps out of you.Guards have names and personalities. Everyone has a purpose, even if that purpose is simply to be a child running around. Every room, every NPC, every twist and turn has a story - even if it's not one you've heard yet. You don't need other players to craft a living, breathing city. You need a well crafted city filled with well designed NPC's. Could it be done in Everquest II? Possibly, with a great deal of work and essentially a city revamp. Would it be WORTH it though? How many hours would such a project take? How many resources? Is that the best use of those hours and resources? </blockquote>There were once a lot more NPCs in the cities and 'burbs with many of them having dialog triggered by people passing or whatnot. But, in response to complaints of lag, more and more of the NPCs were removed. The repetative dialog of many of them was silenced (and was mostly silence-able from Options anyway). Several who would interact with players, if only giving out some sort of easy quest, were also removed in "revamps" to the low-level content making even NPC interaction a thing of the past.</blockquote>They're not really removed. If you look along the canal wall behind the buildings in SQ, you'll find about 5-10 NPCs just standing there, few in the day but more at night. Same for Freeport, the NPCs will gather around Executioner's Square and in other spots in the main city. In NQ, they'll gather at Ironforge Estate.It's really creepy as hell, imho. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>"Creepy as hell" is a significant understatement. The first time I saw them, I was thinking, "What is this, are they waiting for the Second Coming or something? Alien saucers to take them home???"Yeesh. Removal of useless zombie NPCs in '09, please!

Grong

02-28-2009, 06:30 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I mentioned Rivet City earlier, from the game Fallout 3. It's remarkable. Even though I'm in a single player game when I log into Fallout 3, I've never felt as if Rivet City is "dead". There's not a single other player anywhere in Rivet City with me, but there are NPC's EVERYWHERE. More than that, the NPC's all have little lives that play out. Depending on the time of day, you might find the shopkeepers from the Rivet City market back in their apartments sleeping, gathered for breakfast at the market cafe, out running errands, or (Surprise!) actually sitting near their market stalls ready to hustle a few bottlecaps out of you.Guards have names and personalities. Everyone has a purpose, even if that purpose is simply to be a child running around. Every room, every NPC, every twist and turn has a story - even if it's not one you've heard yet. You don't need other players to craft a living, breathing city. You need a well crafted city filled with well designed NPC's. Could it be done in Everquest II? Possibly, with a great deal of work and essentially a city revamp. Would it be WORTH it though? How many hours would such a project take? How many resources? Is that the best use of those hours and resources? </blockquote>There were once a lot more NPCs in the cities and 'burbs with many of them having dialog triggered by people passing or whatnot. But, in response to complaints of lag, more and more of the NPCs were removed. The repetative dialog of many of them was silenced (and was mostly silence-able from Options anyway). Several who would interact with players, if only giving out some sort of easy quest, were also removed in "revamps" to the low-level content making even NPC interaction a thing of the past.</blockquote>They're not really removed. If you look along the canal wall behind the buildings in SQ, you'll find about 5-10 NPCs just standing there, few in the day but more at night. Same for Freeport, the NPCs will gather around Executioner's Square and in other spots in the main city. In NQ, they'll gather at Ironforge Estate.It's really creepy as hell, imho. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>"Creepy as hell" is a significant understatement. The first time I saw them, I was thinking, "What is this, are they waiting for the Second Coming or something? Alien saucers to take them home???"Yeesh. Removal of useless zombie NPCs in '09, please!</blockquote>The city guard dumps all the Fae wings gathered for the day down the hole at executioners plaza at 1:30 each night. That's what the crowd is gathering to witness, and every once in awhile you see a Fae still attached-marvelous fun.