PVP Critical Mitigation (Critigation)

[Shuai]

<p>     So, for those of us who've spent a lot of time in the game, gotten good gear, worked hard for it etc. How annoying is it knowing that someone who just dinged 80 with no critical attacks will do more dmg to a pvp opponent who's geared out (similar to yourself) than you will? (permitting they land the spell/ca/attack).</p><p>     If I have invested time to get 90 or so Critical attacks, why should I be penalized for going after a stat which increases dmg? Not only is the dmg decreased, but if their critical mitigation(critigation) is 60% or higher, I will be hitting far below the minimum dmg for my attack. Had I not invested time into dps gear, I would hit them harder...</p><p>     Does this seem right to anyone else? My suggestion.</p><p>     Change effects of critigation in pvp. Pve let it rest the way it is, but pvp needs a revamp. The solution is simple, change critigation to lower the opponents CHANCE of critting on you but leave the critical dmg the same. Example, I have 90 critical attack, my opponent has 60 critigation, thus, 90-60=30 my critical chance on that opponent is then 30%.  Not only will this fix the penalty for seeking good gear, but further encourage players to get more of that great gear so they will have a higher chance of critically hitting their opponent.</p><p>Definitely needs to be fixed.</p>

[Rhodan]

<p>critigation lol. I just think there needs to be a hard cap on crit mit, like all other stats. Only thing is that it's the only new system that trys to make pvp last longer. No hard nerf needed, just one to balance it, And I agree, having + crit should benefit you more than hurt you.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Eh, even with a hard cap, unless it's EXTREMELY low, you'll often be hitting for LOWER than the minimum of the dmg spread. Still is a penalty for criticalling and there shouldn't be.</p>

[GoldynMoon]

<p>wah, i can't instantly kill mages and healers anymore..</p><p>ok ok wait...  you can still probably kill mages in under 3 seconds with lack of dispersion.. healers... well.. thats a small victory for me since 3 of those classes are what i play pretty much exclusively nowadays. </p><p>So really, what I see from this post is...   I wont be able to kill people super quickly who have at a minimum tso tier 2 gear (since thats when I see crit mitigation getting to the levels you quoted)   Only one class can buff crit mitigation, and thats a warden. </p><p>ON top of which, the people who are going to be stacking the crit mit are gonna be tanks.. whom are mostly getting a dps nerf... and are supposed to be a counter for a scout anyway...</p>

[Wed]

<p><cite>GoldynMoon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>wah, i can't instantly kill mages and healers anymore..</p><p>ok ok wait...  you can still probably kill mages in under 3 seconds with lack of dispersion.. healers... well.. thats a small victory for me since 3 of those classes are what i play pretty much exclusively nowadays. </p><p>So really, what I see from this post is...   I wont be able to kill people super quickly who have at a minimum tso tier 2 gear (since thats when I see crit mitigation getting to the levels you quoted)   Only one class can buff crit mitigation, and thats a warden. </p><p>ON top of which, the people who are going to be stacking the crit mit are gonna be tanks.. whom are mostly getting a dps nerf... and are supposed to be a counter for a scout anyway...</p></blockquote><p>People like this should be banned from posting on the forums imo.</p><p>to the OP: I suggest you do some testing. If it turns out people with less Melee/Spell crit are actually outdoing people with more, this should be changed.</p>

[yohann koldheart]

<p>dont know what anyone else thinks but the op post cries  waaaa i cant 1 shot  people as mutch waaaa.</p><p>so your complaing that people can mitigate a portion of your 10k + pvp crits ? heh funny</p>

[Wed]

<p>He's not saying he wants to one shot people. He's saying the mechanic of crit mit in PvP is fundamentally borked.</p><p>Do I know if he's right? No. Do I think you should stop posting? Yes.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Apparently some of the hecklers can't read well. Here's a good comparison for you healers. It would be as if you're penalized for critically healing whoever your trying to heal. Because you got the crit gear, you now heal for less. That's the problem.</p><p>The problem is that people are punished for criticalling instead of critical mitigation lowering the possibility of criticalling. I have 67% critical mitigation, I'm a scout. My cloth caster friend has 70%, my healer pvp partner has 86% crit mit. The statement about this applying to fighters is bogus.</p><p>Say I have an attack that hits for 500-750. Were I to hit my healer friend with a 1k crit attack, he'd take 140 dmg. This does not include normal mitigation which is added in to additionally reduce the dmg. Obviously this is below the minimum of the ability.</p><p>If I were to non critically hit him for 600, I'd only be dealing with the base mitigation. So again, why be penalized for collecting good gear?</p>

[Paikis]

<p>My understanding of critical mitigation was this:</p><p>Everyone has their default 0.3 mod for critical hits. Through AAs and some gear, you can increase this mod. (1% extra crit mod adds 0.01 to your crit mod).Critical Mitigation mitigates the crit mod of the person who is attacking you. It is not a %, it is a flat value.</p><p>Now if you had a crit mod of 1.4, and you hit someone for 1000 damage, you would normally crit for 1400 (ignoring the fact that auto-attack crits work differently) but if that person has 30 critigation, then your mod of 0.4 will be reduced to 0.1 (0.4-0.3=0.1) and you will only hit for 1100. Im almost certain that critigation will have no effect on non-crits, and Im also almost certain that you can't ever have a negative crit mod (after critigation) so you should never hit someone for LESS than normal with a crit.</p><p>Dev confirmation would be great, but this is how I understand the system to work.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Incorrect, through testing, critigation doesn't mitigate the additional dmg done by the critical attack, it mitigates the entire critical hit as a whole.</p>

[Wed]

<p><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My understanding of critical mitigation was this:</p><p>Everyone has their default 0.3 mod for critical hits. Through AAs and some gear, you can increase this mod. (1% extra crit mod adds 0.01 to your crit mod).Critical Mitigation mitigates the crit mod of the person who is attacking you. It is not a %, it is a flat value.</p><p>Now if you had a crit mod of 1.4, and you hit someone for 1000 damage, you would normally crit for 1400 (ignoring the fact that auto-attack crits work differently) but if that person has 30 critigation, then your mod of 0.4 will be reduced to 0.1 (0.4-0.3=0.1) and you will only hit for 1100. Im almost certain that critigation will have no effect on non-crits, and Im also almost certain that you can't ever have a negative crit mod (after critigation) so you should never hit someone for LESS than normal with a crit.</p><p>Dev confirmation would be great, but this is how I understand the system to work.</p></blockquote><p>Yea, that's how it should work. But it doesn't seem to.</p>

[Faenril]

The crit modifier should never fall below 1.0 due to critical mitigation. I think I even remember Aeralik posting that somewhere. If this is not the case in the current implementation, this should be treated as a critical bug. (see what I did there :p)

[Sorffats]

<p><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My understanding of critical mitigation was this:</p><p>Everyone has their default 0.3 mod for critical hits. Through AAs and some gear, you can increase this mod. (1% extra crit mod adds 0.01 to your crit mod).Critical Mitigation mitigates the crit mod of the person who is attacking you. It is not a %, it is a flat value.</p><p>Now if you had a crit mod of 1.4, and you hit someone for 1000 damage, you would normally crit for 1400 (ignoring the fact that auto-attack crits work differently) but if that person has 30 critigation, then your mod of 0.4 will be reduced to 0.1 (0.4-0.3=0.1) and you will only hit for 1100. Im almost certain that critigation will have no effect on non-crits, and Im also almost certain that you can't ever have a negative crit mod (after critigation) so you should never hit someone for LESS than normal with a crit.</p><p>Dev confirmation would be great, but this is how I understand the system to work.</p></blockquote><p>I dunno if your analogy is correct, but here is how a fight with one person went.</p><p>One of my combat arts normally (in pvp) hits for 900 - 1800, non critical.   Pre-critical mitigation, I could crit that upward of 2200+.   I used that combat art on an exiled player whom I am pretty certain has some high critical mitigation raid gear.  Three times I hit this player with this combat art, twice it criticaled.   One critical hit was for about 280 and the other was for about 230, the non critical hit of the same combat art hit him for 1400.</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My understanding of critical mitigation was this:</p><p>Everyone has their default 0.3 mod for critical hits. Through AAs and some gear, you can increase this mod. (1% extra crit mod adds 0.01 to your crit mod).Critical Mitigation mitigates the crit mod of the person who is attacking you. It is not a %, it is a flat value.</p><p>Now if you had a crit mod of 1.4, and you hit someone for 1000 damage, you would normally crit for 1400 (ignoring the fact that auto-attack crits work differently) but if that person has 30 critigation, then your mod of 0.4 will be reduced to 0.1 (0.4-0.3=0.1) and you will only hit for 1100. Im almost certain that critigation will have no effect on non-crits, and Im also almost certain that you can't ever have a negative crit mod (after critigation) so you should never hit someone for LESS than normal with a crit.</p><p>Dev confirmation would be great, but this is how I understand the system to work.</p></blockquote><p>I dunno if your analogy is correct, but here is how a fight with one person went.</p><p>One of my combat arts normally (in pvp) hits for 900 - 1800, non critical.   Pre-critical mitigation, I could crit that upward of 2200+.   I used that combat art on an exiled player whom I am pretty certain has some high critical mitigation raid gear.  Three times I hit this player with this combat art, twice it criticaled.   One critical hit was for about 280 and the other was for about 230, the non critical hit of the same combat art hit him for 1400.</p></blockquote><p>That makes sence atleast it fixes op crits, maybe fights will finally last longer. Point is instead of complaining about it, why dont everyone go get crit mit gear. Either that or just deal with it. People sit arround an complain about things before and as soon as they are introduced. You have options to fix it. No one is stopping you from gettin crit mit gear. If you say it makes your dps slack then all the other people with it should be having the same problem.</p>

[Wed]

<p><cite>Spartis@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That makes sence atleast it fixes op crits, maybe fights will finally last longer. Point is instead of complaining about it, why dont everyone go get crit mit gear. Either that or just deal with it. People sit arround an complain about things before and as soon as they are introduced. You have options to fix it. No one is stopping you from gettin crit mit gear. If you say it makes your dps slack then all the other people with it should be having the same problem.</p></blockquote><p>So you seriously believe someone who's just hit 80 and only has, lets say, 20% crit chance, should do more damage than someone who's been raiding/PvPing for gear for months because that person has 70% crit chance?</p><p>Come on, everyone can see that's broken.</p>

[Faenril]

lol if it's meant to work that way then they should remove the +spell/melee crit from pvp gear, as it's counterproductive atm <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wed]

<p>Bah, at least you melee classes can stock up on double attack.</p><p>wtb + spell double attack.</p>

[Brimestar]

<p>Sounds like a wizzy who is griping about the fact his/her 10k Fission is now hitting 5k. Funny how ppl screamed bloody murder about the one shotting of ppl by scouts way b4 myths...And now mythd (wizzies) can one shot ppl. Irony?</p>

[Wed]

<p><cite>Brimestar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sounds like a wizzy who is griping about the fact his/her 10k Fission is now hitting 5k. Funny how ppl screamed bloody murder about the one shotting of ppl by scouts way b4 myths...And now mythd (wizzies) can one shot ppl. Irony?</p></blockquote><p>Again, that is a completely seperate discussion.</p><p>Although while on that subject, I will admit BoI is starting to get slightly out of hand. I'm not sure about Venekor and Vox, but on Nagafen we have highly geared wizards that will come out of immunity, hit Catalyst and Freehand Sorcery and 1 shot someone with BoI while wearing their choker, then run back into immunity. Perhaps its to do with Preparation (Ability from Najena's Ring of Readiness), but nonetheless, it is slightly imbalanced.</p>

[Niou]

<p>If thats truly the case, then it needs to be changed, and I'm a tank saying that.</p><p>Anybody not understanding, here's an example:</p><p>Subject A has 20% crit chance. He hits for 500-1000 an attack, and his crit is for 1500. When he crit's, the attack is being reduced to 250 damage instead of 1500. Which means when he does NOT crit, he is actually doing more damage.</p><p>EX:</p><p>250 Crit</p><p>250 Crit</p><p>1000 Normal Hit</p><p>1000 Normal Hit</p><p>1000 Normal Hit</p><p>=3500 Damage</p><p>Subject B has 90% crit chance. He hits for 500-1000 an attack, and his crit is for 1500. When he crit's, the attack is being reduced to 250 damage instead of 1500. Which means when he does NOT crit, he actually doing more damage. Therefore, because he crits More often, he is producing less damage than a less geared person would.</p><p>EX:</p><p>250 Crit</p><p>250 Crit</p><p>250 Crit</p><p>250 Crit</p><p>1000 Normal Hit</p><p>=2000 Damage</p><p>Hopefully everybody understands that, it's not very complicated. By having less crit chance, you produce more damage because your attacks arn't being reduced below even non-crit numbers.</p><p>Reducing the opponents -chance- to critically attack would be the way to go for PvP servers. That way the crit mit is working by reducing the critical attacks incoming, as it should be.</p>

[Shuai]

<p><cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If thats truly the case, then it needs to be changed, and I'm a tank saying that.</p><p>Hopefully everybody understands that, it's not very complicated. By having less crit chance, you produce more damage because your attacks arn't being reduced below even non-crit numbers.</p><p>Reducing the opponents -chance- to critically attack would be the way to go for PvP servers. That way the crit mit is working by reducing the critical attacks incoming, as it should be.</p></blockquote><p>Yes someone understands what I'm saying! Don't penalize pvpers for seeking good gear!! just give us incentive to want MORE of that same kind of gear. Critigation-attacker crit chance= Attackers crit chance</p>

[Enoe]

<p>easy to solve</p><p>instead putting no pvp gear:</p><p><strong>7 % melee crit chance </strong></p><p>for example there should be something like:</p><p><strong>5% melee crit chance 3% melee crit bonus </strong></p><p>and all would be happy</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If thats truly the case, then it needs to be changed, and I'm a tank saying that.</p><p>Hopefully everybody understands that, it's not very complicated. By having less crit chance, you produce more damage because your attacks arn't being reduced below even non-crit numbers.</p><p>Reducing the opponents -chance- to critically attack would be the way to go for PvP servers. That way the crit mit is working by reducing the critical attacks incoming, as it should be.</p></blockquote><p>Yes someone understands what I'm saying! Don't penalize pvpers for seeking good gear!! just give us incentive to want MORE of that same kind of gear. Critigation-attacker crit chance= Attackers crit chance</p></blockquote><p>Well what i have observed even in PVE... is that sometimes i crit a mob, junker mob in moors for a quest or something, look at the damage it crit for and its at the low end or even under the base ammount, non crit, for that attack...</p><p>IE i do my Hundred hands on a mob where i crit... lets say the base amount says 100-300 per hit... i have crit them for 95 each before... which doesnt make any sense at all... and i have crit them for, say, 125 as well... so the crits sometimes just hit on the low end of the base spectrum as well... so i would imagine this is the case for PVP as well, and i doubt the sokokars in Firmroot have a bunch of critical mitigation, but i have seen this multiple times... as i can dictate which when i do a critical strike 100 percent of the time with Mantis Leap so i can test this on multiple different mobs at any time...</p><p>it would certainly be nice for lazy bones jones' at SOE to make Arena in PVP servers have PVP rules so you can test some things out, especially something like this... put up ACT and have some fights to see what crit mitigation does to what in PVP.. but alas... they made the arena and then those people must have been fired the next day as it hasn't been updated for years now...</p><p>So the only way to test it is through actual PVP and you never know what the other person has for gear, melee / spell stats etc... and even if you do have a buddy on the other side, testing it on multiple people to get a spectrum of data would be very difficult...</p>

[Wytie]

<p>Its just like how the Avatars were bugged. Same exact deal, guilds were able to take advantage to this because Avatars were criting on raids for less damage than non crits. This just further proves it, course they ninja fixed the avatars and are just now nerfing its loot. go figure LOLOLOL</p>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If thats truly the case, then it needs to be changed, and I'm a tank saying that.</p><p>Hopefully everybody understands that, it's not very complicated. By having less crit chance, you produce more damage because your attacks arn't being reduced below even non-crit numbers.</p><p>Reducing the opponents -chance- to critically attack would be the way to go for PvP servers. That way the crit mit is working by reducing the critical attacks incoming, as it should be.</p></blockquote><p>Yes someone understands what I'm saying! Don't penalize pvpers for seeking good gear!! just give us incentive to want MORE of that same kind of gear. Critigation-attacker crit chance= Attackers crit chance</p></blockquote><p>This would completely make sense.</p>

[Sorffats]

<p>What needs to be done with critical mitigation is that it should only affect the critical portion of a spell, combat art, or auto attack.   Criticalling an attack is simply an addition to the attack's normal damage.  Critical mitigation shouldn't affect the normal portion of any damage.</p><p>So, taking my combat art for instance, if it does on average 1200 dmg non critical, then that 1200 dmg portion should be unaffected by critical mitigation.   If that ca crits, and would do 2000 dmg (which would be 1200 dmg + 800 in critical dmg), then critical mitigation should only mitigate the part of that dmg that is the critical portion (the additional 800 dmg).</p><p>Regular mitigation and/or resists and critical mitigation should work in tandum with critical hits.   Regular mitigation on gear would affect the amount of dmg taken by both the normal dmg and critical dmg; then critical mitigation would additionally mitigate the critical portion of that.   Same thing with spells.  Spell resists would mitigate the resistability as well as the amount of dmg taken by the normal dmg portion of a spell and the critical portion with critical mitigation only affecting the critical portion of the spell.</p>

[Orthureon]

<p>Well as far as I have been told and I have seen all you need is 20% critical mitigation in order to absorb ALL extra damage from a crit. So I think what happened is that if you have over 20% it starts acting as if it were just normal mitigation, 36%, 20 of it would absorb all critical damage, 16% extra would absorb 16% of the normal damage</p><p>I normally hit for 1-2k autoattacks in PVP, someone with crit gear and I hit for like 200 lol.</p>

[threat111]

<p>Paikis is correct.  Its almost word for word what i told him =)</p><p>As far as Niou, no.  Thats completely wrong.  Your crits in PVP are based off the original attack.  Not the max damage of the attack.  And Critical mitigation only mitigates the additional damage the crit adds to the base attack.  It does nothing to the original amount of damage the attack.</p>

[Wed]

<p>Maybe you're right Cesium, but how does that explain people seemingly critting for much less than a non crit? Or maybe the people so far in this thread are all lying. Stranger things have happened..</p>

[threat111]

<p>Aeralik posted this on beta forums back in november.</p><p>"Critical attacks by players against npc's will continue to use the max damage + 1 or damage * critical multiplier whichever is higher. NPC and player vs player critical attacks will use damage * critical multiplier. When you mitigate critical attacks its the multiplier that is reduced. So if the npc has a 2.0 critical modifier and you have 100% critical mitigation then the attack will actually work like a normal melee attack since you mitigated the critical amount completely( damage * 1.0 would be normal damage ). And no you can't reduce it below a 1.0 modifier to mitigate damage even further."</p><p>"NPC and player vs player critical attacks will use damage * critical multiplier." QFE</p>

[Paikis]

<p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Paikis is correct.  Its almost word for word what i told him =)</p><p>As far as Niou, no.  Thats completely wrong.  Your crits in PVP are based off the original attack.  Not the max damage of the attack.  And Critical mitigation only mitigates the additional damage the crit adds to the base attack.  It does nothing to the original amount of damage the attack.</p></blockquote><p>Pfft. You just confirmed what I already knew. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Izzypop]

<p><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My understanding of critical mitigation was this:</p><p>Everyone has their default 0.3 mod for critical hits. Through AAs and some gear, you can increase this mod. (1% extra crit mod adds 0.01 to your crit mod).Critical Mitigation mitigates the crit mod of the person who is attacking you. It is not a %, it is a flat value.</p><p>Now if you had a crit mod of 1.4, and you hit someone for 1000 damage, you would normally crit for 1400 (ignoring the fact that auto-attack crits work differently) but if that person has 30 critigation, then your mod of 0.4 will be reduced to 0.1 (0.4-0.3=0.1) and you will only hit for 1100. Im almost certain that critigation will have no effect on non-crits, and Im also almost certain that you can't ever have a negative crit mod (after critigation) so you should never hit someone for LESS than normal with a crit.</p><p>Dev confirmation would be great, but this is how I understand the system to work.</p></blockquote><p>That's how it's suppost to work. </p><p>Some players here are claiming that it is not working as intended and that players are recieving a negative crit mod after critigation.</p><p>Is critigation broken or working as intended?</p><p>I don't have the answer to that question, but I do know one thing.  The burden of proof lies on those that want a change.  If you think crit mit is broken then you need to prove crit mit is broken.  That will require a good parse proving that critical hits land for less damage than non critical hits.</p><p>No Parse=No Proof that critigation is broken</p><p>No Proof that critigation is broken=claims that it is broken are unfounded</p><p>Unfounded claims=Devs ignoring whatever it is that you are talking about</p>

[Niou]

<p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As far as Niou, no.  Thats completely wrong.  Your crits in PVP are based off the original attack.  Not the max damage of the attack.  And Critical mitigation only mitigates the additional damage the crit adds to the base attack.  It does nothing to the original amount of damage the attack.</p></blockquote><p>Notice the part where I said, "If thats truly the case". We're all aware how critical mitigation is supposed to work; What the OP is saying though, is that its not working as intended. Thus the whole...you know...debate. My example simply illustrated what the OP and some others in the thread are saying is happening with their critical attacks.</p><p>Hopefully, if this is true, people will be able to post info proving it as Izzy said, so that it can be changed.</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p>To the whole one shot because of crit ordeal, ummm hate to break it to you the possibility even if you had 100% crit mod is still up that you can be on shotted, alot of mage dps comes from stacked mods, high int,spell dmg mod, and one of the most important of all base damage, there are some wizard walking arround with close to a 30% increase to there bottom cap on spells, so gettin one shotted by a mage without it critting still can be done. Daray's dps forum showed the numbers without crits an its pretty nasty, but without the proper gear you have nothing to worry about.</p>

[Ol]

<p>Yes, definately needs to be fixed. should either</p><p>1. have a cap as to where it should only make it hit the max damage. like if it was to hit 500-1000, the crit could hit for a minimum of 1000.</p><p>2. Just decrease there chance to crit.</p><p>Those seem like the best two ideas to me.</p>