Hostage nerf why now? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

chily

02-19-2009, 11:52 AM

Big Nerf incomming for raiding coercers with LU51: Bonuses on the raid acquired Coercer robes have been lowered to 1 additional Hostage trigger.Effects the Robe of Spectral Coercion and Coercive Robe of Twisted ThoughtsSo instead of 8 triggers (3 base, 2 from AA and 3 from robe) we get only 5 triggers now (3 base, 2 from AA and 1 from robe)But why the nerf now ?? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Aule

02-19-2009, 01:19 PM

6 now but yeah, LU45 was 05/13/08, if this is in response to that then it sure took a darn long time. We already got hosed by having to wait to kill Trak in comparison to Illus getting it on 2-set bonus. That at least was worth waiting for. Somehow I doubt we'll get an explanation either.

Fozzie

02-19-2009, 02:54 PM

This really sucks. First they make Anaesthesia (and the two upgrades available to this ability in the Shadow tree) totally useless, then they make Thoughtsnap totally useless - without making any alternatives available. Now they knock effectively 25% off the output of our main spell.Already people are leaving the game in their droves because of lack of decent progression and game content. Now they announce further backward steps????WTG SoE....

Aeralik

02-19-2009, 03:13 PM

Based on our data, there is a huge spike from group play to raiding in respect to damage from Hostage. Looking further into it you see that the robe essentially doubles the base damage just based on trigger count while also adding 5% to the damage. I don't know of any other bp effect that has such a profound increase. Also on top of that you get 2 additional triggers from achievements which leads to the damage almost trippling. Yes it's unfortunate but we figured it was better in the long run realizing the differences from group to raid damage to alter the item instead of reducing the base skill damage.

Fozzie

02-19-2009, 03:32 PM

Can't agree with you there. You'll be hard pushed to find a Coercer anywhere who hasn't taken the 2 extra hostage triggers from their Coercer tree. So as far as I see it the Robe doesn't 'double' the base damage, it just adds 3 to the existing 5. By you reducing the trigger amount from 3 to 1 we effectively have 25% less overall.Also, the 5% extra base damage you quoted above only applies to the TSO set robe, not the VP set robe. So the 98% + Coercers out there who haven't managed to get the TSO set robe yet will notice the nerf more.Yet on top of that you have also announced;"* General damage and heal bonuses will no longer apply to triggered spells except with the profession spells which increase from +damage effects"Surely this will drastically reduce the output from Convulsions alone? So why nerf the robes too??

EQbluetalon

02-19-2009, 03:33 PM

This is an absolutely ridiculous nerf, targeting Coercers (of all the classes!) for a huge damage reduction while leaving Illusionists alone. Most raids "min/max" at 3/1 Illusionists now anyway, and taking away such a large chunk of Coercer DPS --> Hate Transfer (which remains after the hate change too) is a substantial blow to the class. It makes me wonder -- what provoked this? The fact that some raids are now able to take 2/2 Illusionist and Coercer, because even though the Illy *clearly* offers much better buffs for the group and the raid (enforced by Aeralik himself through his replies), the slightly better generalized dmg from the Coercer helps to even it out.I don't understand this at all. Many, many Coercers now have the Trak'anon robe given that we're so far into TSO. It has surely helped lift up many a guild by the bootstraps thanks to the damage increase, hate transfer, and more comfort for the raid DPS'ers as a result. Simply cutting the Coercer DPS at the hamstring, in this unbalanced fashion (LOOK at us compared to Illusionists!), is a terribly unfortunate decision.Something must be done to save raiding Coercers from this nerf, which will go a good portion of the way toward returning us to our pre-LU45 gimpishness. And for those who would say "Don't overreact" - you clearly must not know the math of taking away 2 whole triggers of Hostage for our DPS. It is an ENORMOUS nerf. Coercers who raid on a regular schedule, 3, 4, 5 times per week, will see their raid desirability lessen greatly, see their DPS shrink arbitrarily, and have basically been "slapped down" by the Devs.Sad day indeed.

Slowin

02-19-2009, 03:35 PM

While i'm sure i would be annoyed having an item like that nerfed if it were me, I honestly don't think i could complain in clear conscience considering coercers are doing quite fine dps wise and already have TONS of utility.

Slowin

02-19-2009, 03:38 PM

<cite>EQbluetalon wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is an absolutely ridiculous nerf, targeting Coercers (of all the classes!) for a huge damage reduction while leaving Illusionists alone. Most raids "min/max" at 3/1 Illusionists now anyway, and taking away such a large chunk of Coercer DPS --> Hate Transfer (which remains after the hate change too) is a substantial blow to the class. It makes me wonder -- what provoked this? The fact that some raids are now able to take 2/2 Illusionist and Coercer, because even though the Illy *clearly* offers much better buffs for the group and the raid (enforced by Aeralik himself through his replies), the slightly better generalized dmg from the Coercer helps to even it out.I don't understand this at all. Many, many Coercers now have the Trak'anon robe given that we're so far into TSO. It has surely helped lift up many a guild by the bootstraps thanks to the damage increase, hate transfer, and more comfort for the raid DPS'ers as a result. Simply cutting the Coercer DPS at the hamstring, in this unbalanced fashion (LOOK at us compared to Illusionists!), is a terribly unfortunate decision.Something must be done to save raiding Coercers from this nerf, which will set us back significantly in raid settings. It absolutely closes the door on 2-Coercer, and goes a good portion of the way toward returning us to our pre-LU45 gimpishness. And for those who would say "Don't overreact" - you clearly must not know the math of taking away 2 whole triggers of Hostage for our DPS. It is an ENORMOUS nerf. Coercers who raid on a regular schedule, 3, 4, 5 times per week, will see their raid desirability lessen greatly, see their DPS shrink arbitrarily, and have basically been "slapped down" by the Devs to reinforce the unbalanced 3-1 ratio with the beloved Illusionist buffbot class.Sad day indeed.</blockquote>Illy's do not offer better utility for the MT and OT group -- so that spot is in no way up for grabs with a nerf to the dps of one ability. If i'm not mistaken this does the same amount as the illusionist counterpart prismatic adornment now doesn't it?

EQbluetalon

02-19-2009, 03:43 PM

"One ability" is the primary nuke / DPS generator of the class. Read earlier in the thread - Illy's are able to get that bonus from gear much earlier than the Trak'anon robe.And, like I said, most raids forego the "OT group" Coercer for an Illusionist. 3/1 Illy. Aeralik will brush that off as "min/maxing", but in 75% or more of regular raids, it's reality.

Fozzie

02-19-2009, 03:59 PM

<cite>Slowin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Illy's do not offer better utility for the MT and OT group -- so that spot is in no way up for grabs with a nerf to the dps of one ability. If i'm not mistaken this does the same amount as the illusionist counterpart prismatic adornment now doesn't it?</blockquote>Nobody said Illy's would be a replacement for MT groups, when you look at the overall picture it's a bad day for all enchanters.I think you'll find that as I mentioned above and highlight again here;* General damage and heal bonuses will no longer apply to triggered spells except with the profession spells which increase from +damage effects.That alone would surely have been enough to reduce the output from convulsions, and if you play an Illusionist then you're going to notice a big difference too....My point was why nerf the robes too???

Fozzie

02-19-2009, 04:00 PM

That alone would surely have been enough to reduce the output from convulsions, and if you play an Illusionist then you're going to notice a big difference too....My point was why nerf the robes too???

EQbluetalon

02-19-2009, 04:04 PM

And my point re: Illusionists -> this makes it even more difficult to truly go 2/2 with enchanter subclasses. Perhaps for some Off tank intensive fights, but most guilds will seek to maximize their DPS. Illys bring MUCH more DPS to their group and the raid. If we really have to break this down, we will, but you should already know this. Now, the gap personally between Illy and Coercer DPS, small as it was, is now thrown out the window in the name of balance? This is anything but balance, it's a major Coercer nerf and if you're defending it then I certainly hope your classes' day doesn't come.

Geothe

02-19-2009, 04:05 PM

Uh oh.Looks like Aeralik was getting out parsed by Coercers.

Slowin

02-19-2009, 04:29 PM

While i've yet (along with most of you i'm sure) to see a zonewide with this change, the fact remains that enchanter dps as a whole probably should be nerfed due to the utility they bring to a raid to be more in line with dirge or troubador dps. Clearly this change only nerfs coercer dps which isn't exactly balanced with respect to illusionists right now, but i wouldn't be shocked if illusionists took a small hit too at some point.If enchanter dps is not nerfed, then bard/conj and even t1 dps may need to be increased. As it is, any enchanter now parses as well as a summoner but they bring 10x the utility, and as was originally the design, mage dps should go sorceror>summoner>enchanter. As annoying as this change may be, i don't know why you'd roll an enchanter if you wanted to compete for upper t2 and lower t1 dps.A separate issue is the mere fact that raids need to bring 4 enchanters/4 bards in the first place -- the next step should be to change these classes so that raids do not suffer so drastically without them and thus leaves room for other neglected classes.

EQbluetalon

02-19-2009, 04:42 PM

But aren't Troubadors and Dirges in chain armor? Isn't that supposed to be the scale ? Survivability ---> DPS? So enchanters are just thrown aside in this, while Warlocks and Wizards continue to reap the benefit of super high DPS? I find that to be a terrible argument.Edit: So Slowin, you're basically arguing for a nerf for enchanters overall. Perhaps a neglected Summoner? It's unfortunate that you would put Coercers in the crosshairs for this, seeing as though we suffered for far longer than any other mage class including summoners. Coercers have only had this "golden age" since LU45, last May. That isn't even a whole year and now we are being knocked back down with what, to those who know, is a substantial nerf.

Fozzie

02-19-2009, 04:51 PM

<cite>Slowin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Clearly this change only nerfs coercer dps which isn't exactly balanced with respect to illusionists right now, but i wouldn't be shocked if illusionists took a small hit too at some point.</blockquote>Are you for real?1. Read the update notes again... particularly this bit -* General damage and heal bonuses will no longer apply to triggered spells except with the profession spells which increase from +damage effects.2. If you are comparing Illy vs Coercer in a raid environment then you are right - it isn't balanced IN FAVOUR OF THE ILLUSIONIST. An Illy will always have far superior buffs by being in a DPS group most usually with all those nice Troubador enhancements, throw in flash of brilliance every 45 seconds, tandem on themselves and their pets, +INT Subj and Dis bonuses from sorcerors/summoners. The only help a coercer in the MT group gets is the odd Tandem. With the up and coming hate transfer changes Coercers are going to be reliant on any help they can get.I really fail to see why this change needed to be made at this time, as well as the already proposed trigger changes.

EQbluetalon

02-19-2009, 05:00 PM

Of course, it is a substantial nerf to the entire raiding Coercer class. That is a given. Yes, the base damage changes will also seriously affect Illusionists. They just haven't figured it out yet on a large scale. Hopefully they will, before Aeralik is able to sneak this change onto Live servers and let it be.The Coercer will probably lose out, because folks like Slowin will argue that a nerf is GOOD (amazingly) and the dev team will rest on that as justification. At the same time, given the huge number of Illusionists in the game, hopefully the Coercer can salvage some relief out of this if the Illys speak up and help reverse the base damage/spell damage trigger adjustment.

Rijacki

02-19-2009, 07:59 PM

<cite>Slowin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Illy's do not offer better utility for the MT and OT group -- so that spot is in no way up for grabs with a nerf to the dps of one ability. If i'm not mistaken this does the same amount as the illusionist counterpart prismatic adornment now doesn't it?</blockquote>So, for it to be 'fair' to illusionists a coercer shouldn't even have one preferred spot on a raid? ONE vs the high desirability now and more so after that change for THREE illusionists.That's like saying a troubador should be nerfed because he's marginally better in the mage group than dirge which is subtantially better in every other group.

EQbluetalon

02-19-2009, 08:50 PM

The sad part (something clear in this thread too) is that, as you go around talking about this, the other mage classes can barely contain their happiness at a Coercer nerf.It's one less class to have to worry about parsing against, for them. Especially Illusionists (who haven't fully understood what's about to happen) are happy that Coercers are getting nerfed backwards. It's a shame that there are many who support this method of balancing - nerf certain classes, preferably the least played classes, rather than fixing the content or boosting the classes that need it.

Fozzie

02-19-2009, 09:53 PM

<cite>EQbluetalon wrote:</cite><blockquote>The sad part (something clear in this thread too) is that, as you go around talking about this, the other mage classes can barely contain their happiness at a Coercer nerf.It's one less class to have to worry about parsing against, for them. Especially Illusionists (who haven't fully understood what's about to happen) are happy that Coercers are getting nerfed backwards. It's a shame that there are many who support this method of balancing - nerf certain classes, preferably the least played classes, rather than fixing the content or boosting the classes that need it.</blockquote>It's even sadder to think that this is precisely the reason why Sony have decided to do this - to make the players of other classes feel better about their capabilities - or lack thereof, at least for a little longer. The whole mentality of backward steps in a game that we pay for, to enhance the enjoyment of others is not really what I'm looking for.It's clear and obvious that with the amount of trigger dependancy Coercers have the proposed trigger changes would be sufficient to dampen the output enough to bring the class below their counterparts. This looks to me like desperate measures to pathetically raise the spirits of a few players with the 'one upmanship' mentality.It stinks.The set piece robes are there for a reason - for all classes - something to aim for. If certain classes are whinging about their robes not being good enough then [Removed for Content] well fix them - instead of just throwing the nerf stick around with a knee jerk reaction to keep a few people happy.

chily

02-20-2009, 07:35 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Based on our data, there is a huge spike from group play to raiding in respect to damage from Hostage. Looking further into it you see that the robe essentially doubles the base damage just based on trigger count while also adding 5% to the damage. I don't know of any other bp effect that has such a profound increase. Also on top of that you get 2 additional triggers from achievements which leads to the damage almost trippling. Yes it's unfortunate but we figured it was better in the long run realizing the differences from group to raid damage to alter the item instead of reducing the base skill damage.</blockquote>Check out all coercer and find a Coercer that is 70+ who didn't put AA into Hostage trigger, How many will you find? Zerowhy? CH from that Line is a decent Healer buff for grouping and raiding, so all put AA into to it for Dps Increase and for CH.1. Vp Robe doesn't have + base damage2. your Data can only be based on VP Robe + 5 Base damage => if the data shows that we would be to high with that robe then nerf that robe with reduce the trigger count from 3 to 2 to be in line with VP robe while getting Crit mitigation3. If the Spell damage doesn't boost Hostage the data can't be right either because you forgot that nerf, so we end up in a double nerf there.4. Of course there is no other Big Dps on BP for other classes because all other classes get the DPS increase as Set Bonus5. There is BP that have a 100% Trigger count Increase ! Sk VP Bp for example BAse trigger 1 BP adds a other trigger => 100% Increase. (Of course that is a big increase to keep the tank up, and not a DPS increase but still it's profound increase liek our robe)Atm Coercers have 2 Decent Set Items Vp Robe and TSO Robe, with the change both are worthless and no more the best robes. Time to get a Robe of Dark power as for LU51 then. Vp and Tso Robe have the same Focus but Tso robe boosts it even more.Why the Nerf on VP set robe at all?Why the Nerf on Tso Robe from 3 to 1 and not from 3 to 2 if the Robe causes that big Dps increase?Ok ok now you gonna say why should someone use a Robe with 2 triggers when he could use a Robe with 3 trigger? Answer: Critical mitigation.<cite>Slowin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Illy's do not offer better utility for the MT and OT group -- so that spot is in no way up for grabs with a nerf to the dps of one ability. If i'm not mistaken this does the same amount as the illusionist counterpart prismatic adornment now doesn't it?</blockquote>Same trigger? yessame recast? noPrismatic adornment has a recast of 10 seconds (As far as i know)Hostage has a recast of 20 seconds

SpineDoc

02-20-2009, 10:09 AM

That's a shame. With all the immune mobs we are kind of like power buffing wizards, but now our DPS is being whittled away. I'm not sure anymore what role SOE wants us to play in the game.

EQbluetalon

02-20-2009, 03:03 PM

Right, they took away the value of CC / stun / daze / stifle etc on so many TSO raid mobs, or even TSO instance heroic, that the fairly high DPS that Coercers were doing WAS their role. Because they transfer a good portion (for now) into hate for a tank. That's it. And still, compared to **ALL** the things that an Illusionist can offer, both to melee and mages alike, outshines it three times over.It was ALREADY three-to-one Illusionist, now they're trying to cement that even further. Like the poster above said, it stinks.Now they're reversing the proc change - does this apply to the Coercer DPS nerf as well? Read back, I predicted that would happen: the bajillion Illusionists would freak and help reverse the change affecting them. So Coercers are just a victim of not having enough voices? Now we'll have less DPS than Illys, less buffing/utility than Illys except the MT group (barely if at all), and *even* less desirability in groups/raids.What a [Removed for Content]' joke.Aeralik, this Coercer change needs to be postponed or greatly amended now to avoid a backlash from the community. It is ridiculous to kick us down the totem pole next to bards in chain armor (with AWESOME raid-wide game-changing buffs), while now leaving Illusionists clearly atop utility DPS and enchanter utility.

Oakum

02-20-2009, 05:03 PM

<cite>EQbluetalon wrote:</cite><blockquote>But aren't Troubadors and Dirges in chain armor? Isn't that supposed to be the scale ? Survivability ---> DPS? So enchanters are just thrown aside in this, while Warlocks and Wizards continue to reap the benefit of super high DPS? I find that to be a terrible argument.Edit: So Slowin, you're basically arguing for a nerf for enchanters overall. Perhaps a neglected Summoner? It's unfortunate that you would put Coercers in the crosshairs for this, seeing as though we suffered for far longer than any other mage class including summoners. Coercers have only had this "golden age" since LU45, last May. That isn't even a whole year and now we are being knocked back down with what, to those who know, is a substantial nerf.</blockquote>Join the crowd. Wardens have been forgotten as the druid (healer/dps hybrid) since the healer class DPS were fixed in LU-13. All healers could heal equally, Furys did the most dps and wardens were right behind them. Then a ways below them it was shaman and then clerics like it should be since druids wear leather, shaman chain and clerics plate.Since then every expansion and a lot of LU's have (although TSO did increase it some but it also increased all the other healers too) pretty much nerfed by default by raising the DPS of all the healers but wardens. The good thing about chanters is that you do have a lot utility that druids do not.A raid leader can sit a warden from the MT group and put another dps or buffer in but the Coercer will stay there and a raid would rather have a coercer and a chanter in a mage group together then a warden and fury in a mage group together. Therefore a while 2 chanters in in the same group is not optimal, more chanters are prefered in raid then druids. EDIT: Dont misunderstand me. I dont like to see any class nerfed and I had to mute a ring that became almost useless to me which did not make me happy.

Sir Longsword

02-20-2009, 05:07 PM

<cite>SpineDoc wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's a shame. With all the immune mobs we are kind of like power buffing wizards, but now our DPS is being whittled away. I'm not sure anymore what role SOE wants us to play in the game.</blockquote>I'm not sure SOE even want's me to play the game, the toons I play are getting destroyed. Tanks? Nerf. Coercer? Nerf. Templar? Upcoming nerf. So that leaves Warlock and Assassin. At least I know the Assassin will rock.

EQbluetalon

02-20-2009, 08:21 PM

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQbluetalon wrote:</cite><blockquote>But aren't Troubadors and Dirges in chain armor? Isn't that supposed to be the scale ? Survivability ---> DPS? So enchanters are just thrown aside in this, while Warlocks and Wizards continue to reap the benefit of super high DPS? I find that to be a terrible argument.Edit: So Slowin, you're basically arguing for a nerf for enchanters overall. Perhaps a neglected Summoner? It's unfortunate that you would put Coercers in the crosshairs for this, seeing as though we suffered for far longer than any other mage class including summoners. Coercers have only had this "golden age" since LU45, last May. That isn't even a whole year and now we are being knocked back down with what, to those who know, is a substantial nerf.</blockquote>Join the crowd. Wardens have been forgotten as the druid (healer/dps hybrid) since the healer class DPS were fixed in LU-13. All healers could heal equally, Furys did the most dps and wardens were right behind them. Then a ways below them it was shaman and then clerics like it should be since druids wear leather, shaman chain and clerics plate.Since then every expansion and a lot of LU's have (although TSO did increase it some but it also increased all the other healers too) pretty much nerfed by default by raising the DPS of all the healers but wardens. The good thing about chanters is that you do have a lot utility that druids do not.A raid leader can sit a warden from the MT group and put another dps or buffer in but the Coercer will stay there and a raid would rather have a coercer and a chanter in a mage group together then a warden and fury in a mage group together. Therefore a while 2 chanters in in the same group is not optimal, more chanters are prefered in raid then druids. EDIT: Dont misunderstand me. I dont like to see any class nerfed and I had to mute a ring that became almost useless to me which did not make me happy.</blockquote>With all due respect, I didn't misunderstand you at all. You're not in favor of a class getting nerfed - unless it benefits your own. I consistently see raids with one druid and one coercer. It's doubly a shame that even a warden is happy that this helps his own desirability while lessening ours.That's the problem to which I was referring.Even another healer class, much less the Summoners, Illusionists, other mages, and various utility - can hardly hide their preference for seeing a Coercer nerf. It is as the poster above said - "one-upsmanship" and simply being relieved at seeing one less rung on the totem pole as Coercers are smacked down back to under-sized. With the proc change put off, the Illusionists are mostly untouched. Now, for the mages, it's only the least-played class in the game, one to a raid Coercer, getting the shaft because they can get away with it to please more people. Democracy in action! /barf <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />The point is, it's near impossible for all 4 Coercers left in-game to do anything about this. We can't even get out of the weeds here. We're simply arguing against the other classes which benefit from our dive down the DPS charts. That leaves little or no room to address devs; now it becomes "Oh, Coercers had it coming! Booyah!"

TwistedFaith

02-21-2009, 08:11 AM

As a illusionist I take ZERO happiness in regards to this nerf, its sadly indicitve of the way SOE makes changes these days. They seem to come out of nowhere and serve no purpose.I have always said since the coercer changes that coercers have had a far higher dps potential than illys, most coercers are based in the MT but OMG when you put a coercer in with a troub the damage is INSANE, far far superior to that of a illy.Honestly though who the hell cares, coercers got the shaft for so long it was impossible to find one, it was about time they got a huge boost. Its a shame this nerf is happening, as honestly as stated above it serves no purpose.

Aule

02-22-2009, 01:47 AM

Glad to see at least one illusionist that isn't ecstatic over this change.

BleemTeam

02-23-2009, 06:23 AM

If the problem is between grouping and raiding with Hostage triggers...then why is this change needed to begin with? The raiding coercers do to much damage in a group? Or...the grouping coercer can't kill Trakanon without a raid?Not really sure I see the point to change the Trak Robe.

Wed

02-23-2009, 04:16 PM

As a casual Coercer who will literally never seen Trakanon, let alone his robe, I don't see the point in this nerf at all. Coercers are not outparsing the high DPS classes from any parses of high end guilds I've seen. They are far more competitive than before, but that's certainly not a bad thing.Oh, and everyone from about level 28 has points in hostage, so to look at it from a base of 3 is misleading at pretty much any level, let alone 80.

Illine

02-23-2009, 09:50 PM

like for tanks and their buff merging, they make their own stupid conclusions.

Jeepned2

02-24-2009, 12:37 AM

Ah now come on folks, it's been almost a year since the big fix. Did you really think that SoE would be able to control themselves and not start re-nerfing the Coercer? As an Ex-Coercer who quit playing mine even after the big fix (I only raid with him now when the main Coercer can't be on) I'm actually surprised that it took them this long to start the nerfing. Hope you enjoyed the ride while it lasted. If history repeats itself you can now look forward to four years of nerfs before the next fix.

Xethren

02-24-2009, 11:54 AM

At this point I would prefer if they left our freaking class ALONE.I just barely quit Vanguard over the giant warrior nerf. I would hate to have to do that to EQ2, since it is the ONLY MMO I like anymore.When will sony learn that if there is a problem or something is out of balance, then fix it ASAP. Not a whole year later! Im not a raider but this is a huge slap in the face to all the coercers who spent time and effort to get the Trak robe. Trust me I feel for you guys.

chily

02-24-2009, 01:06 PM

The discussion in the testserver forum:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=443985" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=443985</a>

Momolicio

02-24-2009, 06:43 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Based on our data, there is a huge spike from group play to raiding in respect to damage from Hostage. Looking further into it you see that the robe essentially doubles the base damage just based on trigger count while also adding 5% to the damage. I don't know of any other bp effect that has such a profound increase. Also on top of that you get 2 additional triggers from achievements which leads to the damage almost trippling. Yes it's unfortunate but we figured it was better in the long run realizing the differences from group to raid damage to alter the item instead of reducing the base skill damage.</blockquote>You did not know of the combo of AA and Raid loot from KoS, RoK and EoF? How many years was that ago?I am dumbfounded at how similar the robes are in the first place for the last 2 years, and how you 'suddenly' feel adding +5% base damage is over the top. Thats an admittance of not knowing or doing your job. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />These are not new items, not new content. The entire retro change is imbecilic. Take the TSO set robes and make them 2 triggers with 5% or 1 trigger an 5%. Its up to the Coercer to decide if the new robe is worth the trade off from the old robe. Sure I can see changing the new loot, much of it needed it; both on the plus an minus. Changing the old gear already in use is not needed.As a Templar I have to choose to break up my VP set for new TSO pieces and forgo 3 extra reactive triggers, or is that too suddenly going to need a change because its too powerful in group instances?

Pins

02-25-2009, 06:57 PM

<cite>Chillis</cite><blockquote>5. There is BP that have a 100% Trigger count Increase ! Sk VP Bp for example BAse trigger 1 BP adds a other trigger => 100% Increase. (Of course that is a big increase to keep the tank up, and not a DPS increase but still it's profound increase liek our robe)</blockquote>They get that from their 6-set, not their BP.Also, Prismatic Adornment has a base recast of 15s with a 2s cast and 3 triggers, Hostage is 20s and a 2s cast and 3 triggers. Add in AAs and you get 12.5s base recast and a 1.5s cast with 3 triggers for Illusionists(14s for a 3 triggers including recast, or an average of 4.67s per trigger), while Coercers add 2 triggers and end up with 22s for 5 triggers, or 4.4s per trigger. Thus, about equal gain. Now to add in the Robe vs. 2/4-Set you have 5 triggers vs. 8 triggers(pre-nerf) or 6 triggers(post-nerf), you get 2.8s for Illusionists and 2.75s or 3.666s for Coercers. Which is unequal. Also, Hostage does slightly more damage per trigger than Prismatic Adornment. How much, not enough to make it really fair after the change. Of course, this is also looking at only 1 spell, so it's not a very valid comparison anyway.

chily

02-27-2009, 06:57 AM

<cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chillis</cite><blockquote>5. There is BP that have a 100% Trigger count Increase ! Sk VP Bp for example BAse trigger 1 BP adds a other trigger => 100% Increase. (Of course that is a big increase to keep the tank up, and not a DPS increase but still it's profound increase liek our robe)</blockquote>They get that from their 6-set, not their BP.Also, Prismatic Adornment has a base recast of 15s with a 2s cast and 3 triggers, Hostage is 20s and a 2s cast and 3 triggers. Add in AAs and you get 12.5s base recast and a 1.5s cast with 3 triggers for Illusionists(14s for a 3 triggers including recast, or an average of 4.67s per trigger), while Coercers add 2 triggers and end up with 22s for 5 triggers, or 4.4s per trigger. Thus, about equal gain. Now to add in the Robe vs. 2/4-Set you have 5 triggers vs. 8 triggers(pre-nerf) or 6 triggers(post-nerf), you get 2.8s for Illusionists and 2.75s or 3.666s for Coercers. Which is unequal. Also, Hostage does slightly more damage per trigger than Prismatic Adornment. How much, not enough to make it really fair after the change. Of course, this is also looking at only 1 spell, so it's not a very valid comparison anyway.</blockquote>You forgot that the VP Set robe gives illu 10 recast, or?Also there is a other diff, Coercers cast hostage on the mob and illu on a scout or tank.Coz of that coercers get a huge spike dps (all tanks scouts hitting mob) comparred to illu (one scout triggering 5 triggers)

EQbluetalon

02-27-2009, 08:08 PM

Yes, and the large chunk of the idea was to help balance out the type of groups that Coercers get vs. Illusionists. Much of the time the Coercer is lucky to even get Tandem, while the Illusionist sits with their Troub, Tandem themselves, other mages (Ice Lash), the Fury buff here and there, and on and on while the Coercer gets quite little by comparison from their MT/OT group.The "huge spike DPS" from Hostage is supposed to help balance that equation a little. If Coercers get a slight edge in equal DPS (as Pinski has shown), that is usually evened out by group setups anyway. Now that's in serious jeopardy thanks to swinging the nerf bat (even swinging it at an RoK set item, unfathomably).

Dailon

03-01-2009, 10:34 PM

<cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chillis</cite><blockquote>5. There is BP that have a 100% Trigger count Increase ! Sk VP Bp for example BAse trigger 1 BP adds a other trigger => 100% Increase. (Of course that is a big increase to keep the tank up, and not a DPS increase but still it's profound increase liek our robe)</blockquote>They get that from their 6-set, not their BP.</blockquote>Arent you talking about TSO set now Pinski, while Chilli is talking about VP set?

Lethe5683

03-01-2009, 11:42 PM

<cite>Sir Longsword wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SpineDoc wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's a shame. With all the immune mobs we are kind of like power buffing wizards, but now our DPS is being whittled away. I'm not sure anymore what role SOE wants us to play in the game.</blockquote>I'm not sure SOE even want's me to play the game, the toons I play are getting destroyed. Tanks? Nerf. Coercer? Nerf. Templar? Upcoming nerf. So that leaves Warlock and Assassin. At least I know the Assassin will rock.</blockquote>Don't worry your assassin is safe.

chily

03-02-2009, 09:29 AM

<cite>Dailon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chillis</cite><blockquote>5. There is BP that have a 100% Trigger count Increase ! Sk VP Bp for example BAse trigger 1 BP adds a other trigger => 100% Increase. (Of course that is a big increase to keep the tank up, and not a DPS increase but still it's profound increase liek our robe)</blockquote>They get that from their 6-set, not their BP.</blockquote>Arent you talking about TSO set now Pinski, while Chilli is talking about VP set?</blockquote>VP and TSO .. both have as 6 set bonus +1 bloodletter trigger. I thinked it was the chest that gives the trigger increase sorry.

EQbluetalon

03-04-2009, 03:44 AM

There was something of a reply by Fireflyte in the "In Testing Feedback" thread. If you haven't seen it already, you're not missing much. It was more of a sarcastic drive-by: "Oh, we have fixed items over a year old before!"Really, it seems to be dodging the issue. That they're taking our best overall item (from RoK OR TSO, mind you) and nerfing the bejeezus out of it. Regardless of the actual lost DPS, the loss of snap aggro will also affect encounters and group viability more times over. They know that; that's why they're doing it. It is as unbelievable as it is ridiculous that after relenting on Proc Rate adjustments, relenting on Avatar Loot, the hardcore Coercer nerf (yay Robe of Dark Power! /wretch) stays simply because there wasn't enough protest.There needs to be more.We need to make the point that, given our desirability vs. Illusionists, Troubadors or Dirges, the extra spiking DPS we were given was balanced. And it still is! How are we unbalanced when most raids will set up with 3-to-1 Illusionist? I've said that two dozen times and not been challenged once; we all know it's true! I think they're just testing the water by nerfing the least-played class, Coercer, because we're an easy mark. There's simply not the numbers of us to put up enough fight to stop anything, we're just swatted away by sarcasm. Look at the response that Swashbucklers recently received - we can mount enough of a challenge to get that type of attention if we try. The Devs need to know that Coercers aren't just sitting here waiting to be pushed down as a "first step" to harder core utility DPS nerfs. Illusionists should be arguing that we stay the same, so they aren't as much in the crosshairs. Get it!?

pubear

03-05-2009, 05:33 PM

Fireflyte's response : "I just fixed the dandruff effect on Diamond Rod to be toggleable a week or two back... I think that bug was a year old."In response to our contention that this was a huge nerf to wait a year to do. Basically a sarcastic joke at our expense. Not exactly helpful. So it looks like they proved that they don't care, and in fact view us as a joke. Dont see trying to get them to change stuff. This pretty much puts an answer to that. They aren't, and consider us lucky that we aren't nerfed more. So I'm assuming if we figure out how to get our dps back up through gear or effort, we'll get nerfed again.Fact is that when we did poor dps, we were being left out of raids because our low dps was perceived as hurting the tanks ability to hold agro. Right now, they like our dps because it helps the tank hold agro. I know that if a wizard is pulling 12k, and the illy is pulling 10k+, and i can't break 6k, because i've been nerfed, when that wizard or illy pull agro, i'll get blamed. To those that want to make the point that we create hate through other routes than just our dps, that didn't help us before gu45, so why should it help us now? Most likely they'll buff the tank to do more dps or something else, and bench us. Since I joined my guild pre 45, i can hope they will continue to want me. But i expect some won't be as lucky.Got to love it when the dev's start laughing.