Lunar Attendant should be raid wide [Archive]

Entarae

02-26-2009, 03:31 PM

I'm pretty shocked that more mystics aren't talking about this actually. I never post, but I came here to see all the outrage about defiler's new shrine upgrade and i see.... almost none. For those of you that don't know at this point, the shrine provides a regenerating 1000 hp ward to the entire raid (within its radius). This translates to insane heals per second on certain raid fights, bringing a defiler that was parsing around 3k hps to around 4k hps. It does still die to aoes, however it still wards 1k of hps from the aoe that kills it on the raid. If our equivalent spell is supposed to be Lunar Attendant, then that is simply ridiculous. Lunar Attendant parses roughly 15 hps with the mystic aa's and recasted after every aoe (or every time it is up in a group situation). There is not even a comparison, Lunar Attendant is a worthless spell. If all your other heals are down and you are casting attendant, get more reuse. Constructive Suggestion:Making it raidwide is the perfect solution. It still would not be anywhere near as useful as the shrine (since the shrine not only wards, but wards for a ton more than 250-350..) but it would make the spell usable for chokers and to top people off after aoes. I'd really like to see some developer comment on this issue because this spell has been essentially worthless for mystics since i began playing in 2005.-Phreeki

Thunderthyze

02-26-2009, 06:51 PM

I have it at M1 and DO use it but tonight was the first time I guaged its effectiveness, or otherwise. We were in Tomb of the Mad Crusader and my dog got hit by an aoe so I pulled him back and cast Lunar Attendant. The only group members close enough to be effected by the bear was me and the dog and I was at 100% health. I can tell you that the health tick on my canine pal was almost invisible to see at 240~280 hps.Seriously.....what's the point?

Eugam

02-27-2009, 03:29 AM

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have it at M1 and DO use it but tonight was the first time I guaged its effectiveness, or otherwise. We were in Tomb of the Mad Crusader and my dog got hit by an aoe so I pulled him back and cast Lunar Attendant. The only group members close enough to be effected by the bear was me and the dog and I was at 100% health. I can tell you that the health tick on my canine pal was almost invisible to see at 240~280 hps.Seriously.....what's the point?</blockquote>So it just needs an increased range ?! Raidwide is maybe a bit much, but with a larger range at least your group could benefit from it.I usually only use it soloing and i find its heals a bit low too. In groups the bang for the casting time is not really there. I dont know how it is in raids nowadays, but in groups i have usually a heal spell active or use an emergency ward. Power effectiviness isnt really needed anymore in groups.

Thunderthyze

02-27-2009, 09:32 AM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have it at M1 and DO use it but tonight was the first time I guaged its effectiveness, or otherwise. We were in Tomb of the Mad Crusader and my dog got hit by an aoe so I pulled him back and cast Lunar Attendant. The only group members close enough to be effected by the bear was me and the dog and I was at 100% health. I can tell you that the health tick on my canine pal was almost invisible to see at 240~280 hps.Seriously.....what's the point?</blockquote>So it just needs an increased range ?! Raidwide is maybe a bit much, but with a larger range at least your group could benefit from it.I usually only use it soloing and i find its heals a bit low too. In groups the bang for the casting time is not really there. I dont know how it is in raids nowadays, but in groups i have usually a heal spell active or use an emergency ward. Power effectiviness isnt really needed anymore in groups.</blockquote>Sorry, my bad. It was ticking at 240~280 but that was per 2 second interval, so I guess the HPS was more like 130?

Banditman

02-27-2009, 10:57 AM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>So it just needs an increased range ?! Raidwide is maybe a bit much, but with a larger range at least your group could benefit from it.I usually only use it soloing and i find its heals a bit low too. In groups the bang for the casting time is not really there. I dont know how it is in raids nowadays, but in groups i have usually a heal spell active or use an emergency ward. Power effectiviness isnt really needed anymore in groups.</blockquote>No, you don't understand. Asking for the spell to be castable raid wide in no way has anything to do with the range on the spell.What Lunar Attendant does now:You cast the spell. Targeting is irrelevant, range to target is irrelevant. The spell completes and the Bear / Badger / whatever pops at your feet and starts healing anyone in your group who is within 5m of itself. The Attendant is a limited pet (usually referred to as a dumbfire) that simply follows you around and continues to spam its heal every 2 seconds. After it's duration is up, it disappears. If an AE should happen to go off and hit it, in most circumstances it dies.What would make Lunar Attendant useful:Spell becomes targeted, 25m range (buff range). Valid targets are "Raid Friend". You cast the spell. The Attendant appears at the feet of your target, and follows your target around, healing anyone in the raid who is within 10m.I'd move that spell to my primary heal hotbar. Right now I don't have the spell on any hotbar.

Gisallo

02-28-2009, 06:42 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>So it just needs an increased range ?! Raidwide is maybe a bit much, but with a larger range at least your group could benefit from it.I usually only use it soloing and i find its heals a bit low too. In groups the bang for the casting time is not really there. I dont know how it is in raids nowadays, but in groups i have usually a heal spell active or use an emergency ward. Power effectiviness isnt really needed anymore in groups.</blockquote>No, you don't understand. Asking for the spell to be castable raid wide in no way has anything to do with the range on the spell.What Lunar Attendant does now:You cast the spell. Targeting is irrelevant, range to target is irrelevant. The spell completes and the Bear / Badger / whatever pops at your feet and starts healing anyone in your group who is within 5m of itself. The Attendant is a limited pet (usually referred to as a dumbfire) that simply follows you around and continues to spam its heal every 2 seconds. After it's duration is up, it disappears. If an AE should happen to go off and hit it, in most circumstances it dies.What would make Lunar Attendant useful:Spell becomes targeted, 25m range (buff range). Valid targets are "Raid Friend". You cast the spell. The Attendant appears at the feet of your target, and follows your target around, healing anyone in the raid who is within 10m.I'd move that spell to my primary heal hotbar. Right now I don't have the spell on any hotbar.</blockquote>I think this would work if they also made it like dog dog when speced for "non-direct AoE immune" and maybe upped the heal just a bit.My biggest problem is I am either OT or Melee dps group. In the OT group the AoE immunity would make it worth it as long as there were some extra heals on in too. Melee dps is a pain in the neck because I have a ranger with me usually and with some of the big hit box mobs I need to joust to keep everyone up because he's WAY in the back. If I could sic this on him I'd be much happier.

Entarae

02-28-2009, 04:04 PM

Making it targetted will not be sufficient for me to use this spell. Its total heal amount is still completely worthless, that's the issue here. If it healed for 1-1.3k at master level, it'd be fine just as it is because it could heal me and whoever i'm standing near for enough to be useful. Alternatively, you could leave it healing 250-350 and make it raidwide. This would produce roughly the same numbers. Making it targettable simply makes it follow someone else around and still be worthless.-Phreeki

AN63LUS

02-28-2009, 08:46 PM

<cite>Entarae wrote:</cite><blockquote>Making it targetted will not be sufficient for me to use this spell. Its total heal amount is still completely worthless, that's the issue here. If it healed for 1-1.3k at master level, it'd be fine just as it is because it could heal me and whoever i'm standing near for enough to be useful. Alternatively, you could leave it healing 250-350 and make it raidwide. This would produce roughly the same numbers. Making it targettable simply makes it follow someone else around and still be worthless. -Phreeki</blockquote> I completely agree with this. It needs to heal for at least 1-1.3k a tick to even be useful at level 80. And 5m range is useless. Most encounters people are not standing right on top of each other. I started feedbacking this about a week ago daily. If more people do this hopefully we will have a spell worthwhile. We just don't seem to have much interaction with a developer on this forum from what I've seen :/

Banadux

03-02-2009, 02:31 PM

Just throwing in a bump. A lot of good ideas out there. I think the heal size specifically should get upgraded along with whatever else is decided. Basically any change would be better than what we have now and it's not an unreasonable request to get this fixed in light of the spiritual shrine fix.

Banditman

03-02-2009, 04:46 PM

Just some background information for those who are wanting the value of the heal increased.For some reason, unknown to all, SOE values HP replacement (true Heals) much higher than Warding. Thus, you see that a Ward is the biggest "Heal" in the game. I'm not sure if we are going to convince them otherwise. In fact, I'm sure we won't. They feel that the "value" of Attendant is balanced against Shrine.Functionality however, is a different ball of wax.There are plenty of examples of "targetable" heals like we've described here, the most obvious one is Vampirism.

Entarae

03-04-2009, 11:10 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just some background information for those who are wanting the value of the heal increased.For some reason, unknown to all, SOE values HP replacement (true Heals) much higher than Warding. Thus, you see that a Ward is the biggest "Heal" in the game. I'm not sure if we are going to convince them otherwise. In fact, I'm sure we won't. They feel that the "value" of Attendant is balanced against Shrine.Functionality however, is a different ball of wax.There are plenty of examples of "targetable" heals like we've described here, the most obvious one is Vampirism.</blockquote>I understand this concept. However, if we examine the numbers, we have shrine warding for 3x the amount (or slightly more) than the heal of the attendant, and on top of that we have it warding the entire raid. In order to determine the effectiveness, 3x the heals on 4x the groups = 12x as effective as out attendant. Now, the assumption here is that the heal/wards are effective, meaning there is damage there to heal/ward. But chances are, since wards are more efficient than heals, the shrine is actually getting MORE of the damage and preventing my attendant from healing, even on my own group. So even if i had 12 attendants casted at the same time, chances are his 1 shrine will STILL be healing for more than all my attendants combined.Was this intended? I highly doubt it, and if it was... one of the dev's plays a defiler. My suggestions still stand as solutions to this issue. By increasing the amount of the heal itself and not making it raid wide, we are still looking at 1/4 the power of the shrine (or less), which i would be totally fine with and actually might make this spell useful. Alternatively, making it raid wide and leaving the heal amount at 250-350 would be about 1/3 as effective (or less), also a very welcomed change and finally makes the spell useful.Either way you look at the solutions, they will still be in line with the whole "wards must be bigger" aspect. Actually, making either one of these changes still leaves the shrine as being many more times powerful than the attendantBanditman, I would be interested to know the source of this information: "They feel that the "value" of Attendant is balanced against Shrine.", who said it where and when?

Entarae

03-10-2009, 06:45 AM

After waiting a sufficient amount of time (and seeing you post elsewhere), I am forced to assume that no one actually said this. And I should hope not because it would be a silly thing to say.I really love the way the new defiler temp pet is. It's a spell that is useful,actually requires timing, and the timing is encounter dependent. This adds more elements to the gameplay; it was an excellent change for defilers. If they added aoe immune to their pet or ours, it would reduce the complexity of using the spell and make it far less enjoyable. Why not just give me an aoe HoT?If Lunar Attendant was raid wide, it would be the other side of the defiler's coin. I forsee the defiler's pet being used to ward the raid before aoes, and our pet being used to heal the raid after the aoes. This would actually give us a timing dependent (and thus more enjoyable) spell and allow all the Mystics to actually use lunar attendant in a raid setting. If you are using the attendant while raiding a difficult named in either OT or MT position, you are not serving your raid as well as you could be. Simple as that.Bottom line: Make this spell usable. I'm willing to overlook Ancestral Balm (which also could have been an enjoyable, situation dependent spell) but i'm really not willing to overlook both of these spells being useless. That is why I have come here to get ideas and discussion from the Mystic community and hopefully get a dev to comment on their reasoning and the state of the situation. I am encouraging anyone reading this to post if you agree with my reasoning, and if you do not please post why. I'd like to get some traffic to this topic and draw some attention.

Malcomb

03-11-2009, 03:26 PM

I think the bottom line is theres no way to justify why the defiler shrine shouuld be revamped, but NOT the mystic Attendant.As it stands, the Attendant is one of the most useless spells. I don't think anyone will debate that fact.I think many of the previous posts were spot on, and suggest the Lunar Attendant gets changed in the following ways:1. Increase in how much it heals2. Immunity to non direct AoE's (maybe it only gets this if you take the str end line)3. Raid wide.4. Bigger range.At this point I would consider 2/4 a nice gesture, but missing the boat on making it a viable spell. 3/4 would make it a lot better, but still not great. 4/4 would make this a spell worth using and a good healing tool.

Arcanemundi

03-11-2009, 04:48 PM

Balance is the key to keeping the peace between Defilers, Mystics, and SOE. Before the last expansion came out, the Defilers were all up in arms after SOE informed the gaming community that Mystics will have an HP buff in Shadow AA Trees, and Defilers a STA buff. Mystics already were not able to buff HP as well as Defilers, so I think that change made the classes a bit more balanced for high end raiding than they were before. However, I believe enough Defilers poked enough devs in the ribs after that which led to the shrine change being introduced. It was a bone SOE threw out there to calm the Defilers down. Although, quite a few of us now feel cheated that SOE has given the Defilers more tools to heal with than the Mystics once again.Based on the AA changes, stats, and class raid gear that SOE has given Mystics for the last year or so it has seemed obvious to me that SOE wants the Mystic class to be more melee based and more dynamic of a class than the Defilers are. While this can be useful in pick up grouping/raiding and messing around soloing, I think it is not that useful to high end players in raiding guilds with multiple accounts that are the bread and butter of the SOE income base. It is hard to figure out what SOE is thinking at any time, but it seems like they think Mystics are balanced with Defilers since we have more DPS abilities or procs that function off our DPS. When I am in raid, I focus only on healing. When I lose someone, I never feel like it was my fault, I did my best to keep them alive. If I DPS instead of heal and loose someone, I feel like I made a serious mistake. So, I am not sure why SOE believes as healers, Mystics would feel comfortable with the changes they have made to our class. One example of this is the Savage Healing DPS proc off a couple pieces of the latest TSO raid gear. Most of the higher end mobs have nasty damage shields and some even port you around when you attack them, so the last thing I want to do is risk getting hit with the damage shield for a small heal from Savage Healing, which makes it useless for raiding. When I see a Defiler's heal parse on a boss fight I wonder if they had as hard of a time as I did healing. I am now forced to conclude that they didn't, since they have more tools to use for healing than I do.Years ago when I picked a Mystic, instead of a Defiler, as my main toon, looking at the spells back then I assumed there would only be small differences in how we heal, or how we buff, but I never imagined that SOE would be so biased towards Defilers as they have been. In my experience as a Mystic speaking with other players in the game, I have found it is a common opinion that Defilers and Mystics are not even comparable when it comes to healing abilities. This is an inaccurate and a negative attitude to have since it is also the player, and not just the class of healer, that determines how well the performance is in raid. When I challenge the assumption that Mystics are less of a healer than Defilers the first thing I hear is the healing buff argument, then the Death Ward argument, then the immunity to Stun argument, so this derogatory attitude in game is definitely a direct result from SOE's bias towards the Defiler class over the past couple years.If SOE wants to make play politics and throw the Defilers a bone to calm them down, then throw us one too. Make Lunar Attendant a pet that is useful, instead of a throw away spell we cast when we got nothing better to do. I usually don't cast Lunar Attendant during hard raid fights since I value wards, heals, cures, and debuffs more. Give it a unique ability like group or raid wide immunities, or make it like a group or raid wide RoA that gives a temporary boost to casting speed and reuse, this way the Defilers will not be able to say it is better, and the Mystics say it is worse, since you cannot calculate and compare the benefits. Alternatively, Oberon Barrier could also be amped up to ward for twice as much as it does to make it a true barrier. I hardly even use Oberon Barrier either.

craazygi

03-11-2009, 05:00 PM

i have heard ppl say that the defiler shrine got upgraged cus of savagehealing or so they seem to think what those ppl fail to realize is savagehealing is completly useless in fights where extra healing counts. that being said i would like to see the bear go to raid wide with closer to 350-450 heals and increase the range to at least 15 meters. also someone compaired ancestral balm to this that is not even close balm is usefull in alot of situations one being where the tank get chainstunned/interupted which happenes quit abit not enough to make a spell usefull but still gives it some use also it is great for affects that kb u as u can eather cure your self or usually more importantly your tank as u are flying. and lastly it helps sometimes when u can chase or be jousting while cureing i have always loved this spell and use as much as i can.

Leza

03-11-2009, 09:14 PM

quote from earlier: I think many of the previous posts were spot on, and suggest the Lunar Attendant gets changed in the following ways:1. Increase in how much it heals2. Immunity to non direct AoE's (maybe it only gets this if you take the str end line)3. Raid wide.4. Bigger range.At this point I would consider 2/4 a nice gesture, but missing the boat on making it a viable spell. 3/4 would make it a lot better, but still not great. 4/4 would make this a spell worth using and a good healing tool.My input: Amen, and let it be so.

Entarae

03-12-2009, 01:46 AM

ArcaneMundi's post is pretty much directly on target. Savage healing is a very cool proc. It's fun for soloing, it's great for a peice or two if I am dpsing in a group zone or on some trash. But it is worthless for high end raid content. So why is it all over our high end raid set? It'd be much more suited to be on some legendary gear, since it will only be used in a casual manner. I don't know about anyone else, but I focus on what I am doing. If I need to heal, i'm only healing. Now, this is somewhat off topic, but it's important to realize that in the scheme of things, this is a casual proc for mystics. It has nothing to do with increasing our raid effectiveness when it counts (on a difficult encounter). So if what ArcaneMundi is saying is correct, and defilers got the shrine beef because of savage healing, then that was a nice swindle on their part.I don't think having the bear be immune to aoe is such a great idea (due to the complexity aspect i was talking about in a previous post), but the other 3 suggestions laid out are not unreasonable. Making all 3 of those seems like a major OP change, but when you consider how truely low the bear's healing potential is, you realize that it'll take a pretty drastic boost to make him useful at all. -Phreeki

attila

03-12-2009, 02:02 AM

I removed it from my panel for so long time, so i didnt remember what they do. Sach as half of "deebaff"

Banadux

03-12-2009, 02:46 AM

<cite>Leza@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>quote from earlier: I think many of the previous posts were spot on, and suggest the Lunar Attendant gets changed in the following ways:1. Increase in how much it heals2. Immunity to non direct AoE's (maybe it only gets this if you take the str end line)3. Raid wide.4. Bigger range.At this point I would consider 2/4 a nice gesture, but missing the boat on making it a viable spell. 3/4 would make it a lot better, but still not great. 4/4 would make this a spell worth using and a good healing tool.My input: Amen, and let it be so.</blockquote>/agree

Ceolus

03-13-2009, 06:56 AM

I would like to note that the base of Spiritual Shrine at Master 1 is 681 and the tick on it is 5 seconds (recast 2 minutes. Can be reduced by 20 seconds via 5 AA points). Lunar attendant at Master 1 has a base of ~450 and ticks every 4 seconds (recast 1 minute. Can be reduced by 15 seconds via 5 AA points). I'd say it's a fair trade-off. Increasing the size is a little much...Also, Spiritual Shrine only has one limited-in-size use per AOE because the only logical use is to cast it BEFORE an AOE and because it dies after the AOE. Lunar attendant can keep healing and healing until everyone is in green after the AOE as it's a type of spell that would be cast AFTER an AOE. You can also joust with it. Spiritual shrine stays where it's placed.The spells are not equivalents and do not have to be treated the same for every change. Spiritual shrine has stated "wards nearby raidmembers" (while lunar attendant has not) since the beginning..this change was therefore a fix to its intended purpose. Defilers and mystics are not the same class. There are many mystic spells defilers would petition for if the classes were treated as equals by Devs.

Entarae

03-13-2009, 03:07 PM

<cite>Ceolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to note that the base of Spiritual Shrine at Master 1 is 681 and the tick on it is 5 seconds (recast 2 minutes. Can be reduced by 20 seconds via 5 AA points). Lunar attendant at Master 1 has a base of ~450 and ticks every 4 seconds (recast 1 minute. Can be reduced by 15 seconds via 5 AA points). I'd say it's a fair trade-off. Increasing the size is a little much...Also, Spiritual Shrine only has one limited-in-size use per AOE because the only logical use is to cast it BEFORE an AOE and because it dies after the AOE. Lunar attendant can keep healing and healing until everyone is in green after the AOE as it's a type of spell that would be cast AFTER an AOE. You can also joust with it. Spiritual shrine stays where it's placed.The spells are not equivalents and do not have to be treated the same for every change. Spiritual shrine has stated "wards nearby raidmembers" (while lunar attendant has not) since the beginning..this change was therefore a fix to its intended purpose. Defilers and mystics are not the same class. There are many mystic spells defilers would petition for if the classes were treated as equals by Devs.</blockquote>Ah yes, was waiting for this one. Welcome to the mystic forums.I would like to point out that your numbers are wrong. These numbers come from Wednsday's raid in Palace of the Ancient One. Specifically, we'll examine the Penta fight since it has 1 aoe on a regular timer and will be good for parsing these two spells. Both spells are at Master level.Spell Min Hit Max Hit Average Hit Total Heals Per SecondSpiritual Shrine 1 998 825.11 506.07Lunar Attendant 19 368 297.47 45 .13These are the results of casting the shrine before every aoe (that it is up) and casting attendant after every aoe (that it is up)."I'd say it's a fair trade-off." Yeah, you would say that.Mathematically, I was showing these numbers earlier without concrete parses. If we take the averages, shrine is roughly 2.5x the heal, and this gives us 45.13 x 2.5 = 112.825. Shrine is healing 4x the groups, so that gives us 4 x 112.825 = 451.3. With a larger sample size, I expect we'd see shrine being roughly 11x - 11.5x as powerful as attendant on every raid named. Now, i'd also like to address the ticks of each spell (5 vs 4). Each time your shrine ticks, you will be able to heal for 1k at any point in the next 5 seconds. Each time our attendant ticks, it is healing at that exact moment and only the damage that has not been healed in the last 4 seconds. I don't know about yours, but my group heal takes a little over 1 second to cast and heals roughly 40% of the groups hps. There will not be very much, if any at all, damage for my bear to take every 4 seconds. But your shrine can eat all it wants.Now I want to address this comment :"Lunar attendant can keep healing and healing until everyone is in green after the AOE"With a 20 second duration, we have a total of 5 ticks. Using our max hit from above, 5 x 368 = 1,840 hps. You must have very, very few hitpoints if that puts you green. And the other healers in your group must really be slacking.I don't want them to be comparable. I don't want them to be the same. I want Lunar Attendant to be useful. The devs made this spell useful for defilers. Why not make it useful for Mystics? All arguments made thus far are pointing out why attendant is not useful using shrine as a sounding board (because it IS useful). We mystics always appreciate the input of a Defiler, but please approach this with an open mind and accurate information.-Phreeki

Banadux

03-13-2009, 08:59 PM

Adept III Lunar Attendant - Tested using training dummy + my fiances brigang chokering downMin. 283Max. 333Avg. 307Heals per cast = 6Total heals tested: 36Total crits: 1 (~ 3%)3 casts with the T2 8% mod from shoulders (56% crit) and 3 fights were without the shoulders (53% crit). The last three casts without the T2 shoulders were actually higher in average than the first 3 and also provided the highest heal of 333.If Ceolus is accurate in 681 being the base for spiritual shrine and Phreeki is accurate in his parse numbers, then Spiritual Shrine must be affected by base heal mod on the caster, and probably the crit amount of the caster as well.681 ward + 8% base = 735 ward + 15% crit = 845 wardSince Phreeki parsed a 998 max hit. I'll assume their defiler has 10% on shoulders and procced the DMG effect.681 ward + 15% base = 783 ward + 15% crit = 900 wardThere are either a few other heal mod effects (the arm, or totem perhaps?) I don't know about affecting spiritual shrine OR the base heal amount is much higher than 681. I only have the totem and it did not proc during testing.

Entarae

03-13-2009, 09:29 PM

I'm not sure where his numbers come from. When I asked my guild defiler about it after the change, he said it was 1k per tick. My numbers pretty much confirm that, just under 1k. I'm not sure if it is effected by +heal/crit/base, but i'd say right off hand that none of these values change our temp pet's values. If that were the case, conjis/necros temp pets would also be effected by their values and I don't think that's the case. I'm currently working under the assumption that the base amount of the shrine is somewhere just under 1k, 950-999. I'm also assuming the base amount for the bear is 275-375 (i've never seen it heal for 400, much less 450). Both of these at master level.

Gisallo

03-14-2009, 03:56 AM

<cite>Entarae wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just some background information for those who are wanting the value of the heal increased.For some reason, unknown to all, SOE values HP replacement (true Heals) much higher than Warding. Thus, you see that a Ward is the biggest "Heal" in the game. I'm not sure if we are going to convince them otherwise. In fact, I'm sure we won't. They feel that the "value" of Attendant is balanced against Shrine.Functionality however, is a different ball of wax.There are plenty of examples of "targetable" heals like we've described here, the most obvious one is Vampirism.</blockquote>I understand this concept. However, if we examine the numbers, we have shrine warding for 3x the amount (or slightly more) than the heal of the attendant</blockquote>Only issue I have is numbers. I have seen attendant maybe do 80 hps and shrine be as high as 800hps. 2-3x's I'd be happy with at this point...not 10 times <shrug>There is a way to balance this, give us a bone and NOT make the defilers scream "the mystics are coming the mystics are coimg" as they scramble to protect the MT slot that most of us don't even want. increas the heal a bit, the radius and make it raid wide. This can be eaily balanced so that it is of equal use to the shrine. Right now I only cast it when the only damage I need to worry about is someone taking damage from their choker so I can wack away and even then I need to be up their skirt in order for them to be in range so I am basically using a group spell to heal 1 maybe two people....brilliant!

Verrie77

03-14-2009, 07:36 AM

<cite>Entarae wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want them to be comparable. I don't want them to be the same. I want Lunar Attendant to be useful. </blockquote>Why shouldnt it be comparable ?? Why only "be useful"...?

mikeyswizz

03-14-2009, 12:17 PM

Hey guys, defiler here. Typically when casting Shrine I try to pop it right after an AE to eat up random damage raid members are taking before the next set of AEs hit. There are certain encounters that Shrine lives through the AEs with no problem and some that it doesn't (IE Tythus). Its a very good spell when used correctly but worthless if you dont cast it at the right time.Attendant is just worthless all the time.. which is the problem.Also, Phreeki's number dont show the whole story. Sure the minimum hit was 1 but that's only because the person who needed to use the ward that time only needed 1 point of damage warded. I am 99% sure that Shrine always puts of the same ward amount up, it just gets eaten differently based on who gets hit. I can verify when I get home but the ward amount is calculated at the time of the shrine cast..and he it keeps the same number until its expiration.ps. I am the defiler that phreeki raids with,

Entarae

03-14-2009, 02:38 PM

<cite>Verrie77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Entarae wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want them to be comparable. I don't want them to be the same. I want Lunar Attendant to be useful. </blockquote>Why shouldnt it be comparable ?? Why only "be useful"...?</blockquote>Because comparable suggests that I adhere to the concept of mystic/defiler equality, and I don't. I enjoy class differentiation. I don't want to be interchangable with the defiler at any point, I want to be a mystic. Hell if they totally revamped the bear and gave him a utility effect instead of healing (as someone suggested earlier, cast/reuse/crit modifiers for the group etc) i'd be very happy to see some new ideas being implemented. And, as was said earlier, it'd be difficult to compare the spells at that point. I should have asked you how you were using the shrine Kriks, just assumed it was before aoe's. Essentially that will make my bear even less effective (which means nothing, he's pretty close to 0 anyways). Also, I tested the base heal amount gear and +heal amount gear on the bear, it appears to have no effect at all. I'd assume the shrine is the same.-Phreeki

mikeyswizz

03-14-2009, 03:17 PM

I use it after AEs because it is almost always still up before the next AE fires...meaning it is up after AND before AEs =)

MagicalMayham

03-16-2009, 04:32 PM

Well I started out writing this beautiful eloquent post about how defilers and mystics were counterparts which means they are similar but not exactly the same, how we both use wards while clerics both use reactives which means our spells should be similar, but then my computer restarted and I lost it so here is a shortened not so eloquent version of that:I have played my toon that is now a mystic as both a defiler and a mystic, when i betrayed I did so because of the guild I was in at the time needed a mystic. When looking at my spells after betraying alot of them seemed to have similar effects as it should have been, when looking they both had a temporary healing pet. Well this is still the case expcet the temporary healing pets are much different, one works very effectivly and defilers cast whenever it is up. The other inefectivly and mystics never cast, or very seldom cast. If one wanted a good comparison it would be like the defiler casting a group ward and it hitting the group for 12,000 and a mystic casting thier group ward and it only hitting the group for 1,000. This isn't the case though, the case is that the wards are similar in the ammount they heal for. So this should be the same for the temporary pets. The obvious solution here to me would be to make the lunar attendant heal, straight heal, not ward so that it would be different then the defilers spell. The heal would be about 1,000 and raid wide. One could still argue that the spiritual shrine would be better because if say a 1,000 point aoe came in instead of the raid getting hit with it the shrine would ward it and then the lunar attendant would not have anything to heal from that aoe. It would make them on a similar level though, yet equally different. If the SOE team wanted to make them a bit more different they could have the lunar attendany do something like increased the raids mitigation by 1000 while up. It would still be a temporary pet that can be killed and still benefit the raid yet, it would be different from the defilers even more so. This is my inputs and thoughts on the lunar attendant/spiritual shrine case.

Entarae

03-17-2009, 11:55 PM

After conferring with my guild Defiler, I have determined that the base for his master 1 shrine is 998 and it does not vary under any circumstance (does not crit and base damage/heal amount does not have any effect).I believe we have seen enough discussion and suggestions at this point to warrent a Developer response. I'm looking for any response, even if just to say "We like it as is." (which would be insane but i'd be forced to accept it). I will begin to petition this issue in-game to draw some attention. I'd encourage others to do so as well.

Arcanemundi

03-18-2009, 11:01 PM

For any Defiler to say Lunar Attandant even remotely compares to the shrine is rediculous. I have parsed the Spiritual Shrine's Spiritual Circle at 125+ HPS and at 8-10% AVG of a Defiler's parse, which is as big as one of our heals or even Stoicism. Lunar attendant isn't able to even come remotely close to that kind of HPS.Most of us REAL healers can agree that if the Defilers had Lunar Attendant, and we had the OP shrine, the Defilers would agree that the Lunar Attendant is a waste of mana and cast time, or would have already got SOE to furnish some uber upgrade to it and prob nerf our shrine in the process. If you currently use the Lunar Attendant spell, and are not throwing wards, debuffs, and heals instead, you obviously are not a serious raider, or healer, or even understand how to play a Mystic well.I have read on other threads here, and in EQ2flames, the BS argument made by Defilers that Mystics can DPS better, so Defilers should be able to heal more to balance the two classes out. First of all, Mystics can be specced 100% heal spec on Mystic and Shadow Tree AA lines, or we can spec points into DPS, so if we choose to go the heal route (Which any serious healer should for raiding imho), then our DPS is severely nerfed and not even worth using or talking about. The Defilers can spec heal or DPS also, so once again it is a no brainer to spec heal spec if you plan on performing well as a healer in raid, and not as a wannabe scout. I do not understand why this is even brought up by the other side. Secondly, Shamans do not, and should not, get to roll on good scout gear unless it is a hand me down that no one else wants for their raid alts. But even if we get the DPS gear, we shouldn't be wearing it when our role is to keep people that can control agro and really DPS alive. Lastly, the Mystic TSO raid set gear procs heals off of DPS they put out, which is completely useless to any Mystic that is a serious healer, while the Defiler's TSO set instead amps up their main healing spells with mods and gives tons of reuse, cast reduction, and wards. Defilers and Mystics both have a constant duty to heal and cure through the damage shield debuffs, but Mystics are forced to be one of the victims of these effects if we choose to use the Savage Healing proc off three of our TSO set pieces. Especially if we are not in the MT group like the Defilers, and solo healing a group, ya great idea SOE, I think I'll go get deleveled and stunned or ported while the rest of my group dies. The set bonuses are even biased towards Defilers. The Defilers get: (2) Applies Focus: <a title="Bane of Warding" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Bane_of_Warding">Bane of Warding</a>.<li><ul><li>Increases the base ward amount of <a title="Bane of Warding" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Bane_of_Warding">Bane of Warding</a> by 220. </li></ul></li><li>(4) Applies Focus: <a title="Precognition" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Precognition">Precognition</a>. <ul><li>Adds a replenishing ward to <a title="Precognition" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Precognition">Precognition</a>. </li></ul></li>And Mystics get:<li>(2) Applies Focus: <a title="Bolster" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Bolster">Bolster</a>. <ul><li>Increases the duration of <a title="Bolster" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Bolster">Bolster</a> by 12 seconds </li></ul></li><li>(4) Applies Focus: <a title="Lethargy" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Lethargy">Lethargy</a>. </li><ul><li>Increases the slow of <a title="Lethargy" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Lethargy">Lethargy</a> by an additional 15% and reduces target's melee crit chance by 5%. </li></ul>Lets see here....Mystics get a temp buff duration lengthened a little, and a debuff increased by a slight amount, and Defilers get a "BASE"!!!! ward increase of 220 to their Curse of Shielding proc ward which is basically a 10% increase since it can parse at 2000, and the critical wards crit for more too! It is like getting a critical bonus for that spell, AND they get an extra replinishing ward for their health and power buff? Come on SOE, give the Mystics a little balance...

Verrie77

03-20-2009, 05:42 AM

To ArcanemundiI couldnt agree more tbh..totally true.We are healers...not scouts.I dont wanna betray to another class just because we are somehow forced into being hybrids.Cant remember who said it earlier in this thread, but I agree that on Boss-fights im defenatly NOT in there meleeing. I have enough to do to be ready to heal/ward my group and stay alert if they MT Defiler goes down..i couldnt care less about dps. So the "savage healing" is sitting there on my gear doing NOTHING. We are wearing endgame gear that does NOTHING for us when fights are hard....jee thanx SOE.

Gisallo

03-21-2009, 02:17 PM

<cite>Verrie77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>To ArcanemundiI couldnt agree more tbh..totally true.We are healers...not scouts.I dont wanna betray to another class just because we are somehow forced into being hybrids.Cant remember who said it earlier in this thread, but I agree that on Boss-fights im defenatly NOT in there meleeing. I have enough to do to be ready to heal/ward my group and stay alert if they MT Defiler goes down..i couldnt care less about dps. So the "savage healing" is sitting there on my gear doing NOTHING. We are wearing endgame gear that does NOTHING for us when fights are hard....jee thanx SOE.</blockquote>Oh I agree, espeically since a properly spec'd Defiler is capable of doing fair dps as well. The reason you don't see this kind of spec as much is because defilers are in the MT group and healing is the only thing you can do there sometimes. If you are in any other group you often find yourself with an opportunity to do be doing damage thus you do more damage, so the illusion of vast Mystic dps superiority is born.As I have said elsewhere though, defilers actually WANT it this way. They want to be THE MT group Shaman. They don't want to have the opportunity to try and perform elsewhere because if they do then the illusion gets tossed to the side. Even so I would never betray my Mystic. I can still do quite well on the parse, when the defiler is late or doesn't show I can still keep the MT standing. Can I do it as easily? nope. Do we need some help for the sake of balance? Yep. But I think its far from bad enough to start talking about betrayal atm.

Arcanemundi

03-23-2009, 05:15 AM

<cite>Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh I agree, espeically since a properly spec'd Defiler is capable of doing fair dps as well. The reason you don't see this kind of spec as much is because defilers are in the MT group and healing is the only thing you can do there sometimes. If you are in any other group you often find yourself with an opportunity to do be doing damage thus you do more damage, so the illusion of vast Mystic dps superiority is born.As I have said elsewhere though, defilers actually WANT it this way. They want to be THE MT group Shaman. They don't want to have the opportunity to try and perform elsewhere because if they do then the illusion gets tossed to the side. Even so I would never betray my Mystic. I can still do quite well on the parse, when the defiler is late or doesn't show I can still keep the MT standing. Can I do it as easily? nope. Do we need some help for the sake of balance? Yep. But I think its far from bad enough to start talking about betrayal atm. </blockquote>Even if my group is green, and the OT/MT are green, I am throwing wards and heals since I am a proactive healer. We are all reactive healers, but the better healers seem to anticipate damage before it occurs, and spam heals more often than other healers that just sit around waiting for something to happen. Shamans especially are proactive since our wards take hits before reactive heals, and heal-over-time heals, kick in. So, DPS is really not an option if you are proactive and throw heals all over the raid.I only DPS on trash, and even then I spend more cast time on group wards for the choker addicts, cross raid heals, and buffs/debuffs, than I do on actual DPS. Since I don't DPS on named usually, I care more about the raw heal bonuses on gear, than the small heals that might, or might not, proc off of occasional DPS I most likely wont ever put out. It's a shame too, most my gear macros only have one or two pieces of TSO Raid Fabled gear. I can get my crit mit up to around 30% now, but I have to swap out so much better gear to do it! It just seams wrong to me. The TSO set should be an upgrade for Mystics, that we wear all the time, and not just for when we think Crit Mit is needed more.