Plate tank taunts [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Antryg Mistrose

02-15-2009, 11:17 PM

Methodology:<ul><li>80 paladin in defensive stance inspecting adeptIIIs in alchemist recipe book - M2's are too prone to error when examined by level 1 mobs, and I don't have access to Restitution (new paladin spell) M1.</li><li>Where taunt or damage is a range, upper limit used (lets be optimistic)</li><li>Only looking at taunts</li><li>Not looking at dps spells/CAs</li><li>Not loooking at AA abilities (and some of them are pretty nifty)</li><li>Not looking at autoattack damage</li><li>Not looking at debuffs</li><li>Assumed every engaged mob hits you once every 4sec</li><li>Assumed procs, proc as often as they say they do</li></ul>I've tried to add an export of a spreadsheet to the next post, but the forum editor is not cooperating.I guess all most people will be interested in is: <table cellspacing="0" frame="void" rules="none"><tbody><tr><td></td> <td></td> <td>Guard</td> <td>Berzerker</td> <td>Paladin</td> <td>ShadowKnight</td></tr> <tr><td> </td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>Overall </td> <td>TPS single target</td> <td>4119</td> <td>3214</td> <td>5228</td> <td>3576</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS encounter of 4 </td> <td>6831</td> <td>8536</td> <td>6860</td> <td>8997</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS AOE of 8</td> <td>8999</td> <td>11768</td> <td>7588</td> <td>11881</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr></tbody></table> Make of it what you will.

Antryg Mistrose

02-15-2009, 11:25 PM

<table cellspacing="0" frame="void" rules="none"><tbody><tr><td></td> <td></td> <td>Guard</td> <td>Berzerker</td> <td>Paladin</td> <td>ShadowKnight</td></tr> <tr><td> </td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>Taunt</td> <td>Name</td> <td>Impede(71) *</td> <td>Mock(72)</td> <td>Clarion(72) *</td> <td>Insinuate(72)</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Threat</td> <td>10374</td> <td>5638</td> <td>10149</td> <td>5638</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Cast+Recovery+Recast</td> <td>0.19+0+4.5</td> <td>0.19+0.4+7.3</td> <td>0.19+0+4.5</td> <td>0.18+0.4+7.3</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS</td> <td>2212</td> <td>715</td> <td>2164</td> <td>802</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Comments</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>DoT component – did not include last trigger as probably overwritten</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>* Can be cast while stunned/stifled</td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>Kick</td> <td>Name</td> <td>Gut Kick(74)</td> <td>Trample(74)</td> <td>Penitent Kick(74)</td> <td>Lucan's Boot(74)</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Threat</td> <td>5591</td> <td>3226</td> <td>6452</td> <td>3226</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Cast+Recovery+Recast</td> <td>0.38+0.4+9.1</td> <td>0.38+0.4+9.1</td> <td>0.38+0.4+9.1</td> <td>0.38+0.40+9.1</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS</td> <td>632</td> <td>398</td> <td>713</td> <td>387</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>Shield Bash</td> <td>Name</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>Heroic Dash(79)</td> <td>Hateful Slam(79)</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Threat</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>4386</td> <td>7720</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Cast+Recovery+Recast</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>0.38+0.4+18.2</td> <td>0.38+0.4+18.2</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>254</td> <td>433</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>Encounter Taunt</td> <td>Name</td> <td>Guard(76)</td> <td>Bellow(76) *</td> <td>Excoriation(76)</td> <td>Chastisement(76) *</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Threat</td> <td>3577</td> <td>9540</td> <td>3577</td> <td>10733</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Cast+Recovery+Recast</td> <td>0.38+0.4+9.1</td> <td>0.38+0.4+9.1</td> <td>0.38+0.4+9.1</td> <td>0.38+0.4+9.1</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS</td> <td>362</td> <td>966</td> <td>362</td> <td>1086</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Encounter of 4</td> <td>1086</td> <td>3864</td> <td>1086</td> <td>3258</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>Stance:Hit</td> <td>Name</td> <td></td> <td>Determined Will(72)</td> <td>Bayle's Stance(72)</td> <td>Fiendish Circle(72)</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Threat</td> <td></td> <td>hate/dps/haste proc</td> <td>3325 * 3.0/min</td> <td>2932 * 3.0/min</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Cast+Recovery+Recast</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS</td> <td></td> <td>indeterminate</td> <td>166</td> <td>147</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>Stance:are hit</td> <td>Name</td> <td>Armored(72)</td> <td>Determined Will(72)</td> <td></td> <td>Fiendish Circle(72)</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Threat</td> <td>50% chance x 1247</td> <td>20%*1461</td> <td></td> <td>902</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Assump</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Single</td> <td>156</td> <td>83</td> <td></td> <td>225</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Encounter of 4</td> <td>468</td> <td>249</td> <td></td> <td>675</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>AoE of 8</td> <td>624</td> <td>332</td> <td></td> <td>900</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>are hit</td> <td>Name</td> <td></td> <td>Insolence(72)</td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Threat</td> <td></td> <td>50% chance x 30sec/164sec * 3118</td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Assump</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Single</td> <td></td> <td>277</td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Encounter of 4</td> <td></td> <td>831</td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>AoE of 8</td> <td></td> <td>1108</td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>AoE with hate</td> <td>Name</td> <td>Slanderous Assault(71)</td> <td>Bloodshower(75)</td> <td>Circular Smite(75)</td> <td>Crimson Circle(75)</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Threat</td> <td>3660 + 525 damage</td> <td>11302+1627damage</td> <td>4238+1014damage+303heal</td> <td>9632+1193+dot</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Cast+Recovery+Recast</td> <td>1.5+0.4+27.3</td> <td>1.13+0.4+27.3</td> <td>1.13+0.4+27.3</td> <td>1.1+0.4+27.3</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS</td> <td>143</td> <td>448</td> <td>182</td> <td>417</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Encounter of 4</td> <td>429</td> <td>1344</td> <td>546</td> <td>1251</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>AoE of 8</td> <td>572</td> <td>1792</td> <td>728</td> <td>1668</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>AoE with hate</td> <td>Name</td> <td>Siege(75)</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>Grave Sacrament</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Threat</td> <td>5651+1360 damage</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>11106+2012mg+hate posn inc proc on being hit</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Cast+Recovery+Recast</td> <td>1.13+0.4+27.3</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>1.1+0.40+164</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS</td> <td>243</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>79</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Encounter of 4</td> <td>729</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>237</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>AoE of 8</td> <td>972</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td>316</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>Attack with hate</td> <td>Name</td> <td>Infraction(77)</td> <td>War Pledge(77)</td> <td>Restitution(73)</td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Threat</td> <td>3319+350damage</td> <td>2655+571damage</td> <td>1 posn, 6353/4sec for 20s</td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Cast+Recovery+Recast</td> <td>0.38+0.4+9.1</td> <td>0.38+0.4+9.1</td> <td>0.18+0.27.3</td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS</td> <td>371</td> <td>327</td> <td>1387</td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>Comments</td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>Overall</td> <td>TPS single target</td> <td>4119</td> <td>3214</td> <td>5228</td> <td>3576</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS encounter of 4</td> <td>6831</td> <td>8536</td> <td>6860</td> <td>8997</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td>TPS AOE of 8</td> <td>8999</td> <td>11768</td> <td>7588</td> <td>11881</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td> <td></td></tr> <tr><td>Misc stuff</td> <td>too hard to really include</td> <td>Recapture(80)</td> <td>Berzerk</td> <td>Holy Ground (80)</td> <td>Death March(58)</td></tr> <tr><td></td> <td></td> <td>Reinfocement(52)</td> <td></td> <td>Sigil of Heroism(52)</td> <td></td></tr></tbody></table>

Obadiah

02-16-2009, 12:04 AM

I like the idea of the exercise. It's a bit tough to pull off though. Couple of thoughts:Variables in Aggression make a large enough difference so as to be noteworthy. At self-buffed levels in the 430-450 range, the difference that will change ALL of these numbers by a few hundred for some fighters. Doesn't necessarily make a huge difference when you're looking at one taunt, but when you start adding up all the numbers with that taken into account it adds up.I wish I could get enough casting time improvements to cut Bloodshower down to 1.13 seconds. That would be hot. It's 2 seconds, and no Guardian or Berserker has casting time improvements. Slanderous Assault is also 2.Curious... you put "increases to proc once triggered" as an assumption under the Berserker passive hate on the defensive stance. You mean you assume there must be something that makes it proc more than that once it procs? Cause there's not. It's 20% on a melee hit period, as opposed to 50% on ANY like the other Warrior one. Kinda sucky by comparison, no? But oh well.Threat ranges do probably make a difference too. Some of us will have more crit % than others, if ranges are tighter on some abilities and wider on others, that will make a difference.

Antryg Mistrose

02-16-2009, 02:56 AM

Oops, I had made a couple of mistakes - mainly in double counting Encounter & Aoe threat. fixed now.The time values I'm using for abilities are TEST SERVER ones, but they seem the same as live so yes I can confirm that on test Bloodshower is 1.13sec casting, 0.40 sec recovery, 27.3 recast as inspected by this Paladin.Crit amounts, ranges, agression abilities, to hit percents, what equipment each class has access to, AA abilities will certainly skew this crude comparison /shrug.Then again, its real data, unlike a lot of the assertions posted.

LygerT

02-16-2009, 03:48 AM

it's not often you have groups of 8 mobs, i'm not even sure why you put that up there.

Obadiah

02-16-2009, 03:51 AM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oops, I had made a couple of mistakes - mainly in double counting Encounter & Aoe threat. fixed now.The time values I'm using for abilities are TEST SERVER ones, but they seem the same as live so yes I can confirm that on test Bloodshower is 1.13sec casting, 0.40 sec recovery, 27.3 recast as inspected by this Paladin.Crit amounts, ranges, agression abilities, to hit percents, what equipment each class has access to, AA abilities will certainly skew this crude comparison /shrug.Then again, its real data, unlike a lot of the assertions posted.</blockquote>Right, it's 1.13 seconds ... but your Paladin has casting time reductions. Not a Warrior option. The casting time is 1.5 seconds on both Test and Live (I was wrong when I said 2) and no Warrior has reductions that will change it. Not a big deal, although the same will apply to recast and recovery times, for which Crusaders have different AA adjustments for than Warriors do.I only point out the Aggression differences because even with all gear, spell quality, etc. being equal Aggression is different. All M1 and wearing the exactly same gear, for example, a Berserker has 16 less Aggression than a Guardian because the Defensive Stances are different. The threat difference on abilities that may LOOK the same when examined by one toon adds up. So already having the lowest ST threat amount in this exercise, in reality since Berserkers have the lowest Aggression of all plate tanks (ironic given the title "The Aggressor*") they are last by even farther. So that's depressing.I appreciate that it's real data though, unlike people just saying "Tank A has no AE aggro" or "Tank B has just as good ST aggro and they are AE tanks" or saying that the Berserker ST taunt can hit for 12K and has a 5 second recast. I've given up on discussing what's actually on Test because it seems the general procedure here is to make up whatever numbers serve your purpose. This is different. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />*Actually, the title is "The Agressor" because somebody can't spell.

forge32

02-16-2009, 04:31 AM

Recapture(80) You do know that this does not give guards hate right? I Know you said to hard to really include but it should not be included anyways.It is a deagro to the next highest tank on the hate list.Aka the off tank.

Antryg Mistrose

02-16-2009, 05:50 AM

<cite>forge32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Recapture(80) You do know that this does not give guards hate right? I Know you said to hard to really include but it should not be included anyways.It is a deagro to the next highest tank on the hate list.Aka the off tank.</blockquote>Yep, aware of that. Thats why its not included (along with all the other abilities in that line in the table) - no easy way to rate any of them in terms of base threat/sec, which is what I was trying to do with the excercise.This is from a spell book inspection btw, its possible i've missed an entire line of taunts on warriors (never played one).

Danelin

02-16-2009, 06:38 AM

One line that might be easy to miss is the 2nd in-encounter line for guardians. Berserkers get a stun + dmg art, guards get taunt+dmg iirc. Name of the line escapes me at the moment, betrayed too long ago.

Ventisly

02-16-2009, 07:20 AM

I'm going to paste these numbers for guardians and would request that someone do the same for the other 3 plate classes (although brawlers are certianly welcome to post theirs as well). I think this is a more accurate representation of the taunt values for a guard given our AA modifications. The following assumptions were used:<ul><li>All spells Master 1 (if you don't have masters, use lootdb.com to get a link and examine it on test for actual values)</li><li>All AA lines related to taunting are maxed where practical for the class (tanking spec)</li><li>All gear removed to eliminate possible differences </li><li>Examines done in defensive stance</li><li>AA abilities are included</li><li>Encounters of 3 and 8 were used since most encounter based calcs are normalized by SOE at 3 and most AOE spells max out at 8 if there is a limit</li><li>The TPS for the 3 and 8 mob encounters are not the total TPS for the encounter but rather the expected threat per mob of the encounter (more explanation later)</li><li>Otherwise, the original assumptions done by the OP are in place</li></ul>Here's the chart for guardians:<img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/670/999.JPG" width="1024" height="185" />More explanation on TPS for encounters: What I wanted to calculate was the expected average threat value per mob in the encounter. This more accurately represents how well the tank can hold AOE aggro on each mob in the encounter. Where the taunt is a single form only, the calculation is basically the single target taunt value divided by the number of mobs in the encounter. While not completely accurate, it should be a close representation to a single target tank tabbing through an encounter and landing their taunts as evenly as possible.

Obadiah

02-17-2009, 05:36 PM

Going to gather this for Berserkers when I get home. But I'm curious about your Aggressive Nature and Stance: Armored numbers. Just trying to use the same assumptions.What's the 5.7 in the casting time under Aggressive Nature for? 53.3 for the stance? Are you figuring you are blocking once every 5.7 seconds, and on the stance you are only taking damage once every 53.3?<img src="http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6060/testzerk2df1.jpg" />

Windowlicker

02-17-2009, 05:45 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>it's not often you have groups of 8 mobs, i'm not even sure why you put that up there.</blockquote>Because you know as well as I do, it makes more sense to balance a class around one special encounter then it might to balance a class vs all content.We wouldn't want AE classes overpowered for that ONE encounter now would we?

Siatfallen

02-17-2009, 06:47 PM

Obadiah

02-17-2009, 08:13 PM

I apologize. I put the spreadsheet of the Berserker taunts in above. Apparently I made the image too big to compensate for the size of my taunts. So the whole thread is all margin-screwy now. I hate it when people do that.Those are all Master 1s (save for the M2 ST taunt) and nekkid and in Defensive Stance. Basically exactly as the Guardian ones above it. Go ahead and look for holes in the numbers if you see anything wrong or missing. Personally I hope I'm way off.Couple of notes.... for Insolence there are two lines. One is the taunt itself, the other is the reactive that lasts for 30 seconds. It's a blue AoE, so it's not restricted to encounter. Of course it's usable so rarely that it's really not a significant portion of a full encounter's hate, but still. For the threat values then, I based it on getting hit the same number of times as in Gaktar's example for his reactives. For the reactive portion, you'll notice it gets bigger as it goes from 1 target to 3 to 8. That's because the reactive procs an ENCOUNTER Taunt. So if you're being attacked by 8 mobs, you're getting hit 8x as much, and therefore proccing that much more hate to the encounter.For the defensive stance I put that same 53.3 in. Same 5.7 for the hate-on-block AA too that we share. Just to keep them constant with respect to one another. In reality, if it's 53.3 for the Guardian one, it should be 106.6 for the Berserker one since the proc is 1/5 as frequent. But also in reality both are probably firing more than once every 50+ seconds. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />Adrenaline Rush grants one a taunt on each hit while Adrenaline is in effect. The data is based on actual melee hit rates in VP in defensive stance with 200% haste and Adrenaline being "up" over half of the time. So it's not really "self-buffed", but I felt I had to be optimistic to avoid being called a sandbagger and to get the numbers as high as possible to potentially save some Berserker's jobs. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Now if you'll excuse me, since I now have the weakest taunts of any plate class and my DPS is about to be lowered YET AGAIN on Test, and my primary alt is a Necromancer, I'm off to cancel my subscription until THAT revamp takes place. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Antryg Mistrose

02-17-2009, 08:42 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>it's not often you have groups of 8 mobs, i'm not even sure why you put that up there.</blockquote>Because you know as well as I do, it makes more sense to balance a class around one special encounter then it might to balance a class vs all content.We wouldn't want AE classes overpowered for that ONE encounter now would we?</blockquote>I used 8 to keep the maths easy and because 8 is for many "blue" abilities even, the most mobs you can hit, regardless of how many are engaged.In my calculations I used an encounter of 4 (green taunts), and blue aoe components for the rest, so it could be a 2nd encounter of 4 or 4 separate mobs. So yes, it does happen reasonably often.As one of the other posters has remarked - that threat total I use is the total threat the tank is puting out, NOT the threat on each member of each encounter, so I have hardly exagerrated the single/multi threat disparity for aoe tanks on multiple targets. Case in point - those 4 extra 5th to 8th 4 out of encounter mobs, only being hit by "blue" abilities, and stance ones:<ul><li>Guard - 542tps</li><li>Zerker - 808tps</li><li>Paladin - 182tps</li><li>SK - 721tps</li></ul>So it looks like Zerker wins and paladins are screwed. However - BIG caveat. The crusaders have 6 or 7 blue AoE damage spells, and the SK ones at least, hit reasonably hard.

Obadiah

02-17-2009, 09:32 PM

<blockquote>So it looks like Zerker wins and paladins are screwed. However - BIG caveat. The crusaders have 6 or 7 blue AoE damage spells, and the SK ones at least, hit reasonably hard.</blockquote>Not from where I'm sitting. Try going through Gaktar's exercise. Look at ALL your threat abilities and you'll see we're miles back. And that's regardless of the announced incoming FURTHER NERF to our DPS. Berserkers have 3 blue AoEs and 1 green. Worst taunts, worst Aggression, add the leather tanks in and we're still on the bottom. I wish my primary alt were anything but a Necro cause Berserkers are going back in the can.

Ventisly

02-17-2009, 10:29 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Going to gather this for Berserkers when I get home. But I'm curious about your Aggressive Nature and Stance: Armored numbers. Just trying to use the same assumptions.What's the 5.7 in the casting time under Aggressive Nature for? 53.3 for the stance? Are you figuring you are blocking once every 5.7 seconds, and on the stance you are only taking damage once every 53.3?</blockquote>Yes, that's pretty much it. I figured an avoidance of 70% normally so one attack every 4s from a mob would be 5.7s between avoided hits (4 / 0.7). Of course real world is that blocks are only a part of a tanks avoidance so the hate generated from this proc would be quite a bit lower (looking over some of my logs it seems like I normally only do about 15 to 25% block).For the second value it's based on that I'm getting hit once every 13.3 seconds (4 / 0.3), assume wards keep me from being damaged 50% of the time and it only procs 50% of the time then that takes it to 53.3 seconds per proc (13.3 * 2 * 2). Obviously real world hit rates can be quite a bit different and I'm thinking of going back over some encounters to see if I can get some more realistic values other than the mobs hitting once every 4 seconds.

Elanjar

02-17-2009, 11:20 PM

Um how many 8 mob encounters are there in this game where its actually important for the tank to make sure they are all on him? Most encounters with more than 4 mobs drop faster than I can taunt.You can't argue out of this one zerkers got the short end of the stick, and with the huge nerf to melee damage our AoE melee abilities (primary AoE agro control up till now) lose even more punch.

Ventisly

02-18-2009, 01:20 AM

Obadiah

02-18-2009, 01:27 AM

<cite>Gaktar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did you have 8 points in Executioner's Anger (STR4)? Cause my Rescue is at 13264 while yours is only at 11069. As I said in my comparison, all AAs related to taunts were maxed.</blockquote>Yes, absolutely. The difference likely comes from our disparate Aggression levels.EDIT: Actually there was one difference in our builds I think. I assume you had placed 5 points in Consummate Defender (Shadows) which increases the bonus your stance gives you to Aggression. That gives me 21 instead of 16 and raises ALL The numbers. My mistake. I revised it in the original above. I know you said plate tank, but this and posts elsewhere have me curious, so once my Monk copies over I'll do that too.

Ventisly

02-18-2009, 02:02 AM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, absolutely. The difference likely comes from our disparate Aggression levels.</blockquote>Ah, yea, guess 16 extra aggression makes a big difference when just standing there but then there's the extra 8% hate gain proc when Berserk (which will apply to all generated hate).Edit: Ah, ya, I didn't have anything in Consummate Defender (didn't realize it increased aggression which increased taunt values). I also didn't have anything in a hate boost to Hateful Assault but then with it's 2 second cast time most guards avoided this taunt (but I'll need to recalc whether it's worth the 2.5s downtime overall now with the boosted taunt values).I'll modify the spec and recalc the sheet (and also use more realistic numbers on hit/block rates for my procs)

Antryg Mistrose

02-18-2009, 04:38 AM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>So it looks like Zerker wins and paladins are screwed. However - BIG caveat. The crusaders have 6 or 7 blue AoE damage spells, and the SK ones at least, hit reasonably hard.</blockquote>Not from where I'm sitting. Try going through Gaktar's exercise. Look at ALL your threat abilities and you'll see we're miles back. And that's regardless of the announced incoming FURTHER NERF to our DPS. Berserkers have 3 blue AoEs and 1 green. Worst taunts, worst Aggression, add the leather tanks in and we're still on the bottom. I wish my primary alt were anything but a Necro cause Berserkers are going back in the can.</blockquote>Ah well, maybe I shouldn't have posted ANY opinion, even if it was to explain that the small picture isn't the only view.I didn't want this thread to be a wordfest/whinefest.The methodology I used isn't perfect, nor is Gaktar's - its just another way of looking at a tiny subset of the real data.You really want to account for:<ul><li>Typical or best armour for the class. Including how easy it is for each class to get particular stat levels, and taking into account which classes are dependant on multiple stats. Mythics/Epics, Class armour design. Which classes got the better procs on armour/weapons ......</li><li>Amount of benefit they get from other class buffs e,g, Time compression, CoB, PotM, Jester's Cap, Divine Recovery, Tandem</li><li>Dynamic abilities like berzerk</li><li>Who can improve common abilities most - eg Rescue - for paladins thats 3 positions, SK 6, Zerker 8</li><li>Taunt crits - innate, accessible gear with it, range of taunts so which benefit more ....</li><li>What buffs/debuffs each class has (e.g. guardian weaponskills)</li><li>What special abilities each class has (e.g possibility of fear resist for crusaders) how useful that is in practice</li><li>Autoattack skills - modifiers, available weapons, "perfect" casting times/order vs interrupting autoattacks</li><li>Availability of Threat, Aggression in AA</li><li>Perceived best AA lines for each class, vs commonly taken ones</li><li>Distribution of single target and aoe encounters, duration of encounters, how long each of the targets is up for, orientation (e.g. for aoe autoattack)</li><li>Re-use of abilities - which are up for which encounters when going through various raid/group zones</li><li>Specials - how do you put a value on holy ground, or reinforcement, or berzerk in TPS? How many are normally up when required? Which situations are each classes specials useful for - how much compared to other classes.</li><li>Useless effects - eg Restitution - paladin's new "uber taunt" has a position increase. So do they a) Cast it whenever its up thus getting minimal use from it, or b) only use when they aren't top of the hate list? How do you put that in tps?</li></ul>You know what? I bet Sony can't figure all of the above in either.Using Gaktar's methodology I get from the 12 abilities with threat on them (and if you think ignoring 2/3 of your spell book is balanced I have some swamp land in florida for sale)Raw data:Paladin Low Solo High Solo Low Enc High Enc Cast Recovery Recast TPS(1) TPS(3) TPS(8) Damage? ExtraClarion(M2, 72) 9436 11533 0.19 0 4.5 2235.5 745.17 279.44 N Can cast while stun/stilfedExcoriation(76) 3159 3861 0.38 0.4 9.1 118.42 118.42 118.42 N Divine Mit debuffRescue(25) 12777 12777 0 0.4 188 67.82 22.61 8.48 N 3 positionsPenitent Kick(74) 5757 7037 0.38 0.4 9.1 647.47 215.82 80.93 Y Stun/KBHeroic Dash(79) 4656 4656 0.38 0.4 18.2 245.31 81.77 30.66 Y Stun/KBRestitution(Adept3, 73) 4986 6094 0.19 0 27.3 1209.17 403.06 151.15 N 1 position, 6 trigger ToTSneering Assault(AA-1) 3993 6655 0.38 0.4 164 32.31 10.77 4.04 Y 3 positionsFaithful Cry (AA-1) 3186 3894 0.38 0.4 164 21.48 7.16 2.69 Y DoT and HoT compoenentsCircular Smite(75) 3762 4598 1.13 0.4 27.3 144.99 144.99 144.99 Y Blue AoEHoly Ground (80) infinite infinite infinite infinite 0.19 0.2 52 N AoE 1st/2nd on hate list for 12.8 sec. Guess only at max recast reduction as don't have enough AA to get itSigil of Heroism(52) undefined undefined undefined undefined 0.75 0.4 110 N 20sec 36% group hate siphonBayle's Stance(72) 3635 4443 67.32 22.44 8.41 Y 3/minute on successful melee attackTOTAL 4789.79 1772.2 829.21

Obadiah

02-18-2009, 12:23 PM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ah well, maybe I shouldn't have posted ANY opinion, even if it was to explain that the small picture isn't the only view.I didn't want this thread to be a wordfest/whinefest.The methodology I used isn't perfect, nor is Gaktar's - its just another way of looking at a tiny subset of the real data.You really want to account for:<ul><li>Typical or best armour for the class. Including how easy it is for each class to get particular stat levels, and taking into account which classes are dependant on multiple stats. Mythics/Epics, Class armour design. Which classes got the better procs on armour/weapons ......</li><li>Amount of benefit they get from other class buffs e,g, Time compression, CoB, PotM, Jester's Cap, Divine Recovery, Tandem</li><li>Dynamic abilities like berzerk</li><li>Who can improve common abilities most - eg Rescue - for paladins thats 3 positions, SK 6, Zerker 8</li><li>Taunt crits - innate, accessible gear with it, range of taunts so which benefit more ....</li><li>What buffs/debuffs each class has (e.g. guardian weaponskills)</li><li>What special abilities each class has (e.g possibility of fear resist for crusaders) how useful that is in practice</li><li>Autoattack skills - modifiers, available weapons, "perfect" casting times/order vs interrupting autoattacks</li><li>Availability of Threat, Aggression in AA</li><li>Perceived best AA lines for each class, vs commonly taken ones</li><li>Distribution of single target and aoe encounters, duration of encounters, how long each of the targets is up for, orientation (e.g. for aoe autoattack)</li><li>Re-use of abilities - which are up for which encounters when going through various raid/group zones</li><li>Specials - how do you put a value on holy ground, or reinforcement, or berzerk in TPS? How many are normally up when required? Which situations are each classes specials useful for - how much compared to other classes.</li><li>Useless effects - eg Restitution - paladin's new "uber taunt" has a position increase. So do they a) Cast it whenever its up thus getting minimal use from it, or b) only use when they aren't top of the hate list? How do you put that in tps?</li></ul>Using Gaktar's methodology I get from the 12 abilities with threat on them (and if you think ignoring 2/3 of your spell book is balanced I have some swamp land in florida for sale)</blockquote>I didn't want it to turn wordy and whiny either. It just slipped. At least it got wordy without us belittling each other, and largely sticking to facts with only a couple whines. So we'ver got that going for us. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I can't generally help the wordy part. But look .... no matter how you slice it, no matter which methodology you use, Berserkers have the lowest ST TPS from taunts of any of the 4 plate tanks, and the gap on AE TPS is neglibible until you have 4 or more adds. The gap becomes larger when you take into account that Berserkers (whose AA title is "The Agressor" [sic]) have the lowest Aggression bonus of all Fighters.I agree no one's method here is "perfect". I would never take some of the AA lines I had to take to arrive at those numbers. Not the Rescue ones, not the Insolence one, probably not even the Defensive Stance one. But if you're going to compare taunts / abilities with threat tied to them it's a pretty good way to do it. Every tank can arrive at a similar, low DPS on Test in Defensive Stance. These threat abilities are going to be the bulk of our hate. I'd very much like to see the same chart for the 3 remaining tanks.What I like about Gaktar's method is, it accomodates the inherent Aggression differences which are huge. Values that may look the same when viewed by the same person (e.g. Rescue) in fact have a 15% difference from one tank to another. That's HUGE, and stuff.It also takes care of the pesky recast/casting time differences from one class/subclass AA that aren't in another's that cause people like me to have fits. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />It doesn't take everything into account - gear, buffs, autoattack, CAs, etc. Not by a long shot. Of course not. But it does show the baseline from which everyone is starting. I agree though .... I wouldn't cast Insolence. (2+ minute timer, AoE with position increases) willy nilly. Or Rescue, which is on the list as if it's being cast whenever it's up, which no one would do.It DOES take into account who can improve these abilities the most though, if you take all AA options that enhance them. And Aggression & Threat in AA ... if it's in there, you would take it for this.No, it doesn't take into account specials. I would be shocked, btw, if the Berserk has much of a threat value. Basically +13 DPS/Haste. It'd be interesting to see if there's a latent +threat that occurs when it procs, but I can't imagine it being anything noteworthy. Personally, I would cast Restitution all the time, but that's just me.If my Monk copied over, I'll have to look for a Defensive Stance Master. Otherwise the numbers will be lower because my Aggression will be a couple points lower. Arg.EDIT: Your Restitution is Adept 3 you cheater, you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> ..... but if you examine the M1 of it it will give you numbers for that.

Antryg Mistrose

02-18-2009, 06:10 PM

Um, I did examine the M1 of Restitution, but as its a low level brigand spell ...... (yes I did /bug that)I haven't been on Test Copy when anyone has been handing out masters of it (assuming that has even happened), as I noted in the very first line of my very first post. Its a new spell, and as its a low 70's one, isn't going to be common any time soon, and no website I can find has a record of it.On Rescue - you did notice how it gives supposedly close enough to the same TPS across all classes? Well an 8 position increase is a darn sight more useful than a 3 position increase, which points to a hole in both methodologies.

Obadiah

02-19-2009, 12:06 AM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>Um, I did examine the M1 of Restitution, but as its a low level brigand spell ...... (yes I did /bug that)I haven't been on Test Copy when anyone has been handing out masters of it (assuming that has even happened), as I noted in the very first line of my very first post. Its a new spell, and as its a low 70's one, isn't going to be common any time soon, and no website I can find has a record of it.On Rescue - you did notice how it gives supposedly close enough to the same TPS across all classes? Well an 8 position increase is a darn sight more useful than a 3 position increase, which points to a hole in both methodologies.</blockquote>lol. Entirely my bad on Restitution. I'd forgotten that from your OP. You can assume it's around 13-15% higher than the Ad3, but still..... have to see it in writing to list it. Boy.... that'll fetch a pretty penny when it drops. Good luck with that when you need it on Live. Sheesh. That bites.8 positions isn't much more useful than 3 IMO. You'll never in a hundred years need more than 3 in heroic content, and hardly ever need more than 3 on raids either, particularly with the plethora of other snap tools now widely available. Obviously the TPS on Rescue is fairly moot since positions are what it's all about, but I doubt I'll ever put points in making Rescue 8 positions. But since it's an OPTION, I felt obliged to list it as if I took it; i.e. maximize ALL taunts. Sneering Assault is probably equally moot.Sure that's a hole in both methodologies, but everyone has their "tricks", right? I mean Paladins have Holy Ground and Gurardians have Reinforcement, Berserkers have the 2-positional AoE CA whose name eludes me at the moment, etc. This is just taunts w/ threat, not necessarily "emergency" abilities. Gives a good baseline idea of the sustained threat capabilities of each.Maybe if you go Offensive Stance after these changes and therefore don't stay high on the hate list it would be useful? Maybe.WTB numbers for the other 3 tanks still. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Obadiah

02-19-2009, 11:52 AM

So .... um .... guess we should've waited a couple days on this. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Antryg Mistrose

02-19-2009, 06:25 PM

Despite what the patch notes say, they didn't change any threat abilities (at least on paladin) - they are just reiterating the changes already made

Obadiah

02-20-2009, 12:39 AM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>Despite what the patch notes say, they didn't change any threat abilities (at least on paladin) - they are just reiterating the changes already made</blockquote>Changed all of the Berserker ones. They basically reduced them all by 5% so they could force us into an AA build to re-raise them by 5%. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /> Some went down more than that, some less. The net result in the spreadsheet would be 2979 on 1, 2266 on 3, 2545 on 8. Oh, and all Berserker taunts are now 5% more likely to be resisted.

Ventisly

02-20-2009, 08:45 AM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>Despite what the patch notes say, they didn't change any threat abilities (at least on paladin) - they are just reiterating the changes already made</blockquote>Changed all of the Berserker ones. They basically reduced them all by 5% so they could force us into an AA build to re-raise them by 5%. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /> Some went down more than that, some less. The net result in the spreadsheet would be 2979 on 1, 2266 on 3, 2545 on 8. Oh, and all Berserker taunts are now 5% more likely to be resisted.</blockquote>For the Guard, everything remained the same except for the two triggered taunts on the Def stance. Now that they will be reverting out the proc change I would imagine those would go back to what they were. I've got slightly modified numbers but most of that was from dumping every single AA into def stance boost and AA related to taunt I could find (missed a few on the first set). End result for guards is 4572 for single target, 2008/mob for 3 and 1225/mob for 8. I'll repost the chart once the procs are back to normal.

Obadiah

02-23-2009, 04:41 PM

<img src="http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2878/sksmall.jpg" />Might have missed something since SK is not my native class. But it's the same exercise... M1 Defensive Stance, nekkid, all taunt/hate/reuse options in AA, looking at M1s except for the M2 taunt.Assuming the update doesn't go through some drastic changes, at the very least some form of threat component tied to auto-attack should be added to both Warriors IMO. The 138 I get from Adrenaline Rush assumes that I pop that ability whenever it's up. It's, um, not something you pop whenever it's up lol. (Sure, things like Rescue aren't either but that's a much smaller TPS contributor)

Obadiah

03-03-2009, 12:19 PM

Same deal with my Monk, who has far better ST hate and more Aggression with the Apprentice I ST taunt and the rest Adept 3 than my Berserker with his Master 1. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />They seem to have by far the best ST hate generation, and superior AE hate to everyone except SK's.Fair warning/caveat: I did not have enough AA to choose the Shadows AA option to increase all taunts by 15% (3% per point) So this is actuals, but then adjusted to take that into account.Also noticed that the Monk has a -0.4 modifier to melee attacks instead of -0.5, which is nice. Didn't try to tank anything on Test with this toon.<img src="http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2050/monkk.jpg" />